The DANGER of FILTERLESS & DEEP SUBSTRATE TANKS: Fungus, Mold & Algae Growing In the Mulm Deep Dive
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- Опубликовано: 18 окт 2023
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Thanks friends. Cheers.At dansfish.com/catalog
At Dans fish just use discount code "Alex" or "alex" to recieve 5% off on top of any existing deals & to support the channel.
Use the code "FISHTORY15" at AquaticArts.com or "Fishtory10" if you already used the 15% code in the last 90 days.
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/ @fishtory
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Thanks friends. Cheers. 
Животные
If you were to re-do this tank in the same container how would you make it differently to avoid it going feral?
Just make it more shallow, or add a light to it so the plants will produce enough oxygen...and more surface area will allow for gas exchange and also less overlap in plants trying to reach light
@@Fishtory Yea making it shallower would also increase the surface area because of the shape of the glass. I understood the reasons you said the other tanks didn't go feral. When you turned off the flashlight I was like WOW that is dark lol.
Also, I just setup a small tank with potting soil and pool filter sand, but I didn't bother to sift the wood pieces out. Do you think the tank is doomed? I don't feel like re-doing it lol. I'll probably just leave it as an experiment.
@@kbbtt Tanks can be tall, but they are also wide and usually not that deep, which inadvertently increases the amount of volume:surface ratio, opposite to a tall cylindrical shape. If you imagine this cylinder on its side with an open top, that will increase volume:surface area many times over, and it's the most common shape of aquariums.
@Fishtory! I Love him! 🍄🍄🍄🍄 Paul Stamens is awesome ❤
Try making a plenum next time and see what happens.
i'm so glad you're honest about keeping fish in small containers on occasion. we all do it sometimes, i have a male mosquito fish who couldn't get along with the community and got his own filtered deep substrate 1gal that he's doing great in 🍄
I wish people would realise this hobby is not black and white
I think this is the reason why father fish recommends 1 inch of soil and 2 inches of sand for beginner fish hobbies to avoid this kind of problems
It helps, but can still occur if there is no airstone and no filtration ...plus any plant melt or die off of size, and or fish dying to create ammonia
@@Fishtorymy biggest source of excess mulm is plant melt, my lights are pretty cheap and old and sometimes I struggle getting them established- if I hadn't started going hard with riparian planting my fish would probably not be happy- but the plants coming out the top are a lot easier- and cheaper- than adding CO2 (by the way the little fluval tanks are clearance now at PetSmart, seven bucks- I haven't given up lol)
If anyone was wondering what a great video looks like, this is it. I absolutely loved this.
Thank you kindly
I had a couple of experimental natural tanks back in the 70s. My dad gave me good advise. He said where in the lake to we catch the fish? In areas of structure. And in areas where water enters the lake..like creeks, rivers, spring, etc.. those areas have sand blown over the crap because of the currents shifting sand. Been using sand caps since. Nutrient soil needs capped. It realy helps.
Greay point! Thanks
@@Fishtorybig interesting comment, shame about the reply 🥲
This is one of the biggest reasons I roll my eyes at anoxic filtration, the lack of oxygen in low surface area tanks causes so many problems, this is a great example. Most people with moldy mulm are probably overfeeding and not removing the excess food though. I find that can happen even in bare bottom tanks. The things that help other than high surface area and water movement are the aquarium heros: snails, shrimp, and bottom feeders all kick particulates up into the water column instead of letting them pack down and choke out the O2.
Very true... you need something resembling an actual micro food web, tons of plants, and voids in the substrate layers for mulm to age and detoxify/ or the opposite ... condensing in anoxic sequestration zones for roots to utilize later (and being capped off)
In my experiments I am finding a great difference between a ‘living’ mulm layer and a dead one. A ‘living’ mulm is basically detritus (decomposing plants and animals) with a huge number of detritus organisms (visible to the eye) processing it. It is healthy. I have taken ‘living’ mulm from outside and put it in a bare bottom aquarium in sunlight (no artificial light) and watched it die. The change is visible and the organisms disappear. It goes from the original black-green sludge full of worms to grey and lifeless like a lunar landscape. If there are fish in the tank feeding on this mulm it turns much faster.
I think we need to identify that there are different states of mulm. They are not all the same. Mulm taken from outdoors is almost moving it is so full of things moving around in it and gasses being released. It is quite a sight to see. Like a living thing.
Just an observation. I hope to upload a video of this soon on my channel.
@towerofnaphtali4066 very nice explanation of your observations! Thank you
I'm so glad to see that you're better and thriving again
Working on it. Thanks for the compassion and possitive energy
This
15:48 I love Otos. They’re so cute and always look like they just got caught doing something like “What???”
WOOOOO !
That my friend is waaaaaay too much substrate. I'm even surprised it didn't turn into an acid bath that you could have used to resurrect a dead car battery 😮
You can tell just by looking at it that it's not being used by anything in the aquarium.
Why so much ?
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Experiment... it sustained 3 fish for 18 months without food or electricity, heat, light or anything but the algae and micofauna i innoculated...black worms, scuds, daphnia, infusoria, ostrocods and copepods all burrow and hide from the fish/spawn in the substrate
@@Fishtory
I like that.
This guy said fungus ❤ what a funguy 😂 cheers , code black 🎉
😂😂
I've got a 20H with no mechanical filtration, but I have a pretty good flow going with an air stone, and lots of live plants that are growing out. I wanted to have no physical filtration so the little creatures can proliferate and become food for the shrimp and fish. Everything healthy so far.
Monitor it, and aim for tons of plants and bacterial, fungal and micro organisms . Best of luck!
The air stone in one of my two point five fishless tanks is the thing that made so many of my riparian plants get water roots like crazy, while others rotted- I have impatiens blooming with water roots! So fun to experiment
man this is hardcore aquarium science, congratulations
I tried to research it all for a few weeks...since i get a lot of "old tank syndrome " or "new tank" crash type questions specifically involving fungi and slime molds
I think I’m an Overthinker, because I am so new to the Hobby?! Lol But I am so grateful you went over soils, molds, etc. I have been having issues with stuff seeping up from my soil into my sand. My sand is very light, but it almost looks like a extra black layer in my sand. As always your sooo informative Alex. Just thank you!!! Hugs to all from Alaska. 🙌😊
Are you rinsing or sifting your substrates at all? That may be the issue. If not
@@Fishtory Yes..thanks!! When I sift the sand it does go back to normal color, but these black layers resurfaces up again over time. It’s definitely something seeping up from the bottom soil to the top of the sand. I wish I could send a picture just to see if this is normal? Lol My 4 tanks are so new, I think I need to leave them alone. Because it doesn’t seem to bother my plants or fish …🤪🤗
🎵 When the good mulm goes ba-ad 🎶 oh yeah the good mulm goes, good mulm goes ba-a-ad 🎵
🍄 I was lurkin in the corner with my five besy friends, 🎶 filterless jarquarium oh the fungus persists 🍄
Love it
i like this guy, the amount of experience and inteligent for fish keeping hobby as equal as experiment for making a new creature
Yay such a perfect topic as always ❤ thanks for the gold mine of information ❤ I just went deep substrate but keeping my sponge hob combo going for sure ❤ I am sorry for your losses but sharing this stuff with us helps us learn too!
Thanks for the stream another great one ❤
Thanks for the update and info! It's very interesting to learn about underwater fungi, and informational video on that class of organisms would be cool for a future video!
The info is very poorly documented with fungi in particular. But luckily it's being studied a ton as we speak
This was a good watch. Thank you..
You're welcome
Amazing video. Thanks, setting up a filterless now. I will make sure to put the heater further down towards the substrate to create a bit more turbulence from heat and density differential to make sure it doesn't stratify for now.
That will help quite a bit for sure
You really talked to Paul Stamets? Cause that's super cool. 🍄
Indeed. I have been following his work for 15 years, and was fortunate enough to be in college in Bellingham when he was doing his first hydrocarbon bioremediation public experiment with oyster mushrooms ... i was mystified and hooked from then on
Loved it Alex!!! ❤😊
Thank you for covering this.
Thanks for listening
Glad you're feeling better Alex and thanks for this video, it was very interesting 🙂👍
Glad you enjoyed it!
This was just what I needed thank you! 🍄
You're so welcome!
I am glad I found this amazing channel!! Keep up the good work homie :)
Thanks, will do! And welcome 🙏
Thank you for your teachings, fantastic effort!
You're very welcome!
NO2 coming out of your tanks, yup, explains a lot. Just kidding, love your stuff
Great video, as always. Congratulations 😊😊
Thank you! 😃
No problem. I watched your livestream with Joey " King" of D.I.Y. from 2yrs ago and left a comment. I'm still, utterly speechless. My wife will be viewing it later. You have the patience of a Saint, sir. Well, done. Respect 🙏
Loved this! Most of my tanks are very low-tech... thanks for the great insights as always, I'm sure they'll prove useful 😊
Thanks my friend
That was a cool experiment!
Really interesting! Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Fascinating, thank you. 👍
Glad you enjoyed it
This is so informative!!! Fantastic reporting; I enjoy this kind of content!🌻🌼🐝
Why thank you. I appreciate all your recent comments and viewership!
@@Fishtory trying to get your work noticed by the algorithm, hopefully it helps 🌻
@potooburd7720 every comment, like, share and link posted ...plus any time watched or commercials watched is all weighted and counts. Thank you so very kindly, as well.
Fascinating!
Hey! You're back!😃 Great show, great content.
Yes! Thank you very much
I had that white networking fungus explode in an unfiltered 20L. It targeted all the crypt species and ate? them. Didn't seem to bother any fish, the tiger lotus, or dwarf sag. After all the crypts were gone, the white fungus cleared up.
Hmmm interesting! Perhaps the fish die off just fueled that...but it started as a bacterial colony introduced by the crypts... perhaps even some mutuallly beneficial bacteria living in or on the plants, that go out of equilibrium!
@@Fishtory I get similar fungus when i encounter anubias rot. When the anubias rhizome starts dying off, the fungus appears long before the rhizome visibly discolors.
Great video. Thank you
You are welcome!
Get well soon Alex!
I love this. I learned so much.
Glad to hear it. Its not to scare anyone from filterless low tech... but warn how much respect to keep for them
Love the intro!
Thanxxx alex i had a catastrophic episode with my tank most my fry my died n the big mama fish i had a lil bit 😮
I learn so much thank you I have the deep substrate mulm kinda thing going on.. it's healthy now always good to know..
Happy to hear it! Have a great week
Amazing!
very informative video , I have all sorts of layers in my substrate
Glad it was helpful!
This is one of my favorites!
Thanks
🍄 Have a very bad hair algae problem in my 20 long. It’s the first time I used sand. Think I’m going to need to redo it but have so many shrimp and shrimp babies I’m not sure how to go about it.
Ty for reminding us that no one is perfect. My other tanks are doing great 😊
All you can do is round up all the shrimp you can... and then redo whatever you want to do. Best of luck 👍
@@Fishtory ty. I’m gonna need that luck. Lol
Hello Alex, i have a couple of questions about this topic...
Firstly,
If any fungus is present (in the detritus), is that always a sign of bad conditions?
I am preparing for a fish order (from Aquaticarts), and am a little concerned about the "star field" of fungus growing on the detritus. I have betta fish (and a frog) in this tub that are doing fine, my main concern is the Kuhli Loaches I planned on putting in there.
The tub is a 20+ gal, about 2/3ds full. Lots of surface area.
No filter , but heated.
I recently upgraded the lighting, and plants are growing better than they were 3 weeks ago.
There is heavy mulm, and the fungus seems to be growing mostly in the "bones of Leaves.
The tub is about 3 years old (my first walstead), and was started with a heavily organic soil.
Somewhere in Oct my male betta disappeared, never saw the body.
One of my struggles with nature tanks is learning, what is a healthy amount of mulm? Some say none, others say all....
I've had a tendency to leave a lot of it, hoping to encourage the microfanua .
I've been thinking though, in nature, weather patterns change, and during the wet season things are churned up and cleaned, so maybe replicating that in the aquarium would be healthier...
Removing all the surface mulm once or twice a year, and then let it build up again?
And, Or adding sand as you suggest...
Anyways,
I am generally fascinated by fungus, and not usually worried about it, but your video (and a fish profile saying Kuhlis are sensitive to fungus and bacteria), have me wondering if i am courting disaster if i put them in there .
This post is getting too long...
Any thoughts?
Much appreciation in advance 🐸
Oldtimer here. Some 40 years ago, I learned a principle that I have followed since then. Never have stagnant water, anywhere, in a tank. Yes, I have experimented a lot with slow flow (like undergravel filters, where the water moves with the help of a heater or a slow dripping filter) to extreme flow (where the pumps deliver more oxygen to the water column). I´ve bred Bettas in basically stagnant tanks, but with an overflow - which means I could change water 24/7, just by dripping it into the tank. So, not completely stagnant. In basically any natural water, you always have some movement, some change. Completely stagnant water in a tank - you will most likely get problems of some kind.
My real question was "will plants create enough o2 and will the 5g jar have churning convection via radiant heat through out the day...like lake, but i dont think its extreme enough.
@@Fishtory that is a very difficult question. From my experience, I´d say that no underwater living plants will create enough oxygen in the water, because they use oxygen too (during the night). It might be different with floating plants. Also, a thick, stagnant (rotting) bottom layer will consume a huge amount of oxygen in any closed space.
But of course, there might be a "sweet spot" with the combination of the thickness of the bottom layer and the plants involved. How to keep that "sweet spot" going... that is something else.
I have watched some of your videos now, and I find it interesting what you are trying out. I don´t always agree with what I have seen from you, but still - well done. I have done my mistakes too, and it is usually from the mistakes that we learn. IF we ask the right questions and don´t throw the project in the bin. Keep up the good work and the questions! :)
@@Fishtory also, I think you cannot simply write "like in a lake". There are tons of lakes, from the tropics to the north. These lakes work in very different ways. Also, there are a lot of different areas within the same lake. From deep water to very shallow water, some places with tons of plants, some places without plants (nutrient rich lakes vs nutrient poor lakes, mostly floating plants or "true" underwater plants). Is it hot, windy, rainy, close to an inlet, contains inflow/outflow or all of it? Even trying to really analyse a small dam will give any aquarist a headache.
Father fish has a dart board with your picture on it, apparently
Lol cool we're making an episode together this week
@@Fishtory that will be awkward with the inside information I just gave you but awesomely awesome none the less
just had this exact kind of crash with a jar ecosphere. Will not be making that mistake again. Lost an entire colony of scuds, dwarf ramshorns, freshwater limpets, and lima-bean ostracods
Oh bummer. Sorry to hear that
Very good to know. I lost some fish I think because of over feeding. One of the sxs I saw was fungus. Didn't put 2 and 2 together until it was too late.
Sorry to hear that ... but yes, over feeding, a dead fish, or lots of excess dead plant material can all cause the ammonia spike, the fungi is more an indicator of having too much toxic debris or low oxygen
I got into mushrooms 1.5 years ago for medicinal purposes and because of that I came to read about Paul Stamets work and bought a couple of his books. I also learned how to make Chaga and Lions Mane extract. What a wonderful world of nature we live in. Only if we humans could follow natural law.✌
So my channel just got blocked/suspended from posting for 7 days and a 90 day warning... because of a fungi video where i showed wild mushrooms....and i said " dont eat or pick fungi without a good guide or education on them, not a youtube video". They said i was "promoting dangerous behavior and also said i was promoting drug use ". Ive tried to appeal it...but its all bots, even though other channels are far more explicit... even mentioning species and dosage etc. But yet my channel is gonna lose money this month, and also i cant make content or even tell people i got banned for 7 days. It just happened today nov 8th... oi i need a real person at youtube to review this and reverse it. I even had a mycology and soil science focus for my archaeology degree... so its all educational, truly. Uhhhg.
I have a newly set up 10 gallon tank with a little duck weed, milfoil(?), and watercress(?). Hoping to and a snail that won't reproduce, shrimp and very small fish. Will the hydra that came with the stream water be a problem? I have some gravel, undergravel filter with airstones, and airpump.
They can be an issue for fish under an inch or baby shrimp ( i have a video of one attacking shrimp. ) but guppies or danios etc well just eat them over time... especially if you cut down on organic or food waste in the water.
Do you have any water springtails in your experimental jar? They do eat some fungi
Mais um grande e super interessante vídeo, meu amigo.
Um abraço desde Portugal!
Another great and super interesting video, my friend.
A hug from Portugal!
Obrigado, meu amigo. Tenho inveja de você morar na Europa! Tenho muitas saudades da Normandia, da Bretanha e de Paris... Portugal e Espanha são os próximos na minha lista a visitar. Tenha uma ótima semana. tchau
@@Fishtory Portugal e Espanha cá te aguardam :)
Portugal and Spain are waiting for you :)
🍄Love Pauls Hat
I know! Ive wanted one for years. If only i could get to croatia 😆
well my mulm went bad when i did a water top off. got stirred up then had a n amonia spike just high enough to set my betta on the path downwards
but ive learned from my mistake and will do better in the future. Alex id like to share my projects with you and hopefully get some feedback on what you think. its on my channel ive posted a few vids. no worries if you dont want to/ cant find the time for this then thats fine nothing but love for you big dog.
Ill try and check it out soon. Remind me again if you dont hear from me soon, my friend. Thank you
Mushrooms & acid make a fungi out of a fish keeper 😉👍 very informative, thanks 🙏
I have videos of info of bettas on acid ... the government did it in the 50s for some dumb reason
Is it true that fish like corydoras can have problems with their barbels in a tank with a lot of mulm? I've seen that stated a lot on RUclips, wondered what your thoughts are?
I would like to suggest that there was not enough air above the column as the tank at the top has a small opening.
I think you are correct... but its always been that way... so i think the decomposition kicked it all off... but yes ultimately you're correct, it becomes a dead zone in that super tall skinny vessel
I’ve been trying to convert my tank to just sponge filter and plants but the mulm keep building up in the middle of my plants and starts forming white film…..I keep cleaning it and at this point I’m thinking of putting my hob back in but I want the water flow to be slower. I have an aqua clear fluval size 50 filter and only use a sponge a bio rocks. But I don’t know guess I need to wait for my small valisnaria to spread more
You need A LOT of plants, like 80% full of plants. But also you need to see which fish and how many, can be supported by the plants, substrate and surface area. For instance, goldfish are a terrible canidate and only one or two will work in a filterless 40 gallon long term. But nano fish in general are great choices... bettas, minows , danios z gouramis all good species
@@Fishtory I’ll wait for my valisneria to spread than before I go filterless again. I need to find more plants to put in my tank. I’ll probably order from Dustin’s fish tanks. He has a good variety of plants.
How bad did that smell? I had a tank for about 5 months with a sponge filter and a few plants and out of nowhere it started smelling bad. Really nasty. I did a big water change and added a filter and that took care of the problem.
It smelled bad for a week...but i was curious if it would self correct...and it sure has the last 9 days ...i think the dying fish produced ammonia, and methane that was smelling. Now its all been remetabolized by the micro flora and fauna
Interesting vid. If an established aquarium acumulates a nutrient rich mulm layer, why do you need to add root tabs or replace the substrate after a while? What is the mulm missing?
I think that mulm could theoretically lose its nutritional value as well. It would be become inert over time and then begin to create an anoxic layer. There’s just not enough room in most tanks for that to not matter.
If you theoretically planned out a diet for your fish...rich in potassium and phosphates, then you wont usually need root tabs. However most fish food isnt rich in potassium
Interesting! So root tabs are probably providing more nutrients than you really need? You may be able to just add potassium phosphate in pill form?
What about blacking out the bottom inch or so of a deep substrate bed? I was wondering if that would be a good thing?
Thatll kill any cyanobacteria in the anoxic layers...and usually thats seen as a good thing...so ill definitely try it out and see. Thanks
@Fishtory would it help to add some rabbit snails to the aquarium with cynobacteria? They would help I think. And then ramshorn snails could eat the cynobacteria.
I was thinking about the jar. Maybe make a little stand that is concaved to sit the jar in. That way the deepest part of the substrate won't see much light if any. Maybe have a hinged door open so you can see what's going on in the substrate.
@Dave-kr9lk it totally depends on the species of cyano.. like spirulina ...everything practically loves eating it... but the common blanketing green stuff i have has a cyanktoxin and i dont know of any animal that eats it...rather bacteria and fungi will compete with it and take over...if it stays in the substrate its likely not a problem...if its up in the water column..then its often a cyanotoxic species that either a total blackout of light for 72+ hours will kill...or 1/2 the usual fish dose of erythromycin will kill it overnight
Find your helth man !!❤💯👍🙂
I’ve seen something similar except I got an area of purple haze just above the substrate rather than fungus. I think it was probably hydrogen sulphide. It was certainly super toxic, as any shrimps that entered that zone died very quickly. Not something I plan on repeating!
If it was hydrogen sulfide gas...yeahhh thats scary
@@Fishtory I really wish I’d have filmed it now. As horrible as it was, it was certainly interesting.
Science is absolutely amazing and mind blowing. This experiment was right up my curiosity alley. The things that happen in the small waterboxes that we keep, versus Mother Nature's system of wind, rain, sunlight, weather and it's constant interaction and influence on the chain of the microscopic circle of life (including detrivores) and it's connection to the bigger circles of life, is mind-boggling that it can be successful at all in such a confined space. As much as we learn and know, it is nothing compared to what is. Mother nature's working chemistry is a mystery that we have only touched the surface of and it is a source of continuous awe, respect and wonder to behold.
Thank you for taking a deeper dive into this quite controversial subject. Very well researched and put together.
Could you please do a micro species spotlight on blue axelrodis?
Yes. Sundadanio blue neons were there name for years....then sundadanio axelrodi and now they have another name haha... so even the last 15 years should be a bit interesting.
@@Fishtory you are awesome thank you so much!
Could you have added any fish or something to stir the water column around more? Or is the tank just too small for that? Or would it even have helped? (I am in a similar situation and am a little scared now😅)
So light for the plants to make more oxygen would have been best (watching out for any massive algae bloom that could happen... a heater low down causes convection too...a water fhange would have helped, an airstone would avoid all this too....trimming dead plants would have helped. But it DID have 4 fish mixing water and im not sure what happened first...them dying or the fungi and plant melt... so unfortunately i dont know for sure unfortunately... i like to use danios usually...since they swim w ton
Okay thank you! Then it seems like there still are many options for me😊
@manskarlsson5897 indeed. Not too many ways to go wrong...lots of ways that will work!
I want to see this in a 6 foot tall tube. . . And a time lapse cause why not
Um 6 foot tube? I dont remember what i had said but im drawing a blank on a 6 foot tube of any kind lol
Apropos of nothing, that networking fungus looks oddly just like Grindal Worm culture.
Indeed it does! Or a brain's mylan network
Ergo the similarity to brain fungus in "Last Of Us." @@Fishtory
What if you were to turkey baster the fungus out not a permanent fix but would make the jar last longer maybe
No idea...lets findout!
Will we see you live on Friday?
Yes friday should be Normal 430ish live pacific time zone
I love your content! I so sick and tired of all the capitalism and consumerism in the hobby but no information. No depth of knowledge on how a healthy ecosystem actually can exist in your aquarium. I love the topic of soil substrates aquariums and the processes involved. I love the idea of relationships between fish, shrimp, soils, mycelium and plants. I love blackwater and acids in water.
Thank you. Im sick of those same things too. Now i do advertise in the description...for independent companies like dans fish or aquatic arts...but anyone i advertise for, is someone ethically doing things in a sustainable and thoughtful system.
@Fishtory I've got nothing against people promoting the parts of the hobby they believe in, quite the opposite, in fact. If you believe in a product or service and think other people would benefit, sing it from roof tops bro!
This has nothing to do with this video but I don’t know how else to ask you. I recently saw an aquarium with multiple deer antlers in it . Have you ever heard of this ? Wonder what are the pro’s & cons ?
Yes. Its essentially like bone or pourus stone after its well cured in the sun or soaked for months... itll usually grow algae but doesnt seem to change the water parameters much from the few people i know whom have used it
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Yay. Im so happy that so many aquarists here, also enjoy Paul's work!
for paul 🍄🍄🍄
Wurd
Bro you’ve expressed curiosity to how to get more views… and this is the first I hear that you have contact with Paul Stamets? Do a damn podcast with him on the sciences of aquatic mycology if possible
There is almost no peer reviewed work on it. But it would be cool to do an episode with him. He does know about aquatic slime mold too, oddly that has more research on it than aquatic fungi
@@Fishtory dude I’d really be interested in hearing from you 1 to 1 , I’ve always wanted to know how you know so very much about the more descriptive sciences of this hobby, do you have Instagram? I’ll delete this thread after you reply
What if we became the first peer review
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Oh yeah!
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