hello Rob, very nice description on all the lathes that are out there to purchase,and you made a good point about the drive belts.what i did early on was find an old mill an lathe.that had a timing belt..what i did was to quickly change them to belt drives using ,"O" ring material.and it all worked out especially on the mill that i had .when a belt dried out and broke all i did was go the the hardware store and pick up a large enough piece of "O" ring material and super glue it and i was on my way with no lost time......well i just thought i would share my story with you.
Hi Ray, I have seen people convert the Gilmer Belt pulleys to "V" belt and it all worked out OK. i don't see any benefit from a toothed belt except that it can't slip. Cheers Rob
I bought a Chinese combined lathe & mill sold by Hafco and its well made but the assembly was hopeless. It made a knocking noise, I suspected maybe a drive gear cog missing a tooth maybe, but once I got it home and took a look, the drive cogs were all perfect. So then I decided it had to be the electric motor. In removing the drive belt to unbolt the motor and free run it, to see if the noise was coming from the motor, I pulled the drive pulley off the drive shaft to find that the woodruff key which should have secured it was missing completely and at assembly they just mounted the drive pulley 180 degrees out of sync & tightened the grub screw down into the woodruff key slot. It was the slop between grub screw & woodruff key slot that was making the knocking noise. Bought a woodruff key from an engineering shop supply, backed the grub screw out, spun the pulley 180 degrees, slid woodruff key into its slot on the shaft and matching slot on the pulley then tightened the grip screw on the back of the shaft where it was supposed to go, & the noise completely vanished. A few months later after some sporadic use the electric motor just died - I suspect a capacitor has died, yet to fix it. The gibs on the cross slide and tail stock were all catywompuss and nothing slid or stayed square / true, like it should have, took forever to get that sorted out. I’m pretty leery of buying anything else Chinese that Hare & Forbes sell cheap to be honest. The only real issue is, what else can you buy Thats any better these days? Older Taiwanese lathes? Older Japanese Lathes?
Good to get feedback Ian. I rang them for some info on that variable lathe and the guy I spoke to had no idea on anything. He tried to be helpful, but the whole event was very unprofessional. Then again I've had the same thing happen at Paramounts. Those guys were probably selling fridges one day and lathes the next ;) Cheers Rob
xynudu Indeed Rob, I’m headed down to Hare & Forbes in Monday with the lathe / mill motor to see if I can find a replacement. It’s only a capacitor that’s shot so I might try & find another one of those & repair the original motor & keep it as a spare. I’ll be looking at maybe a new bigger better lathe with dro’s etc while I’m there, after watching your video, it got me inspired to maybe upgrade to something better.
Hi Rob, great review and you make some good comments. I have a 1984 Hafco AL 320 from memory and I like it. It has a 38mm spindle, power feed with reverse tumbler on the bed and cross feed and a gap bed which I have never used. Even though the cross slide doesn’t have T slots there is still flex at the cutting tip. Unfortunately it’s all belt feed except for the back gears. Last year the motor literally went up in smoke but Hare & Forbes had a replacement on the shelf except it was 2hp instead of the original 1hp. Not bad for a near 40 year old Taiwanese lathe. It’s been a great little unit and does most things I need. I did a conversion on my 6” lininsher from Ac to a Dc motor from a treadmill. This went very well as it has given me almost infinite speed adjustment from around 300rpm to about 4000rpm but one down side to Dc is it will slow down a lot more under load than Ac. On the sander it’s not a problem but on a lathe or drill press that this can be a big problem so I’m assuming the Dc lathe has some kind of speed compensators. Cheers Rob, Stu. 🇦🇺
Yes, that's a downside of DC. There is no way to compensate for the torque drop off except to use gearing. Input voltage, torque and armature speed all go hand in hand. That's why I mentioned the Paramount lathe would be better for heavy going. Cheers Rob
Gday Rob, I have the Hare and Forbes AL51G lathe and over all its not a bad little lathe, the biggest issue I have is the size of the drive belt, it’s only 5mm wide and at low rpm it will slip, I wish it had a reverse tumbler to do left hand threads but on the other hand I haven’t done a project yet that has needed it, I have changed the spindle bearings, the head stock was full of sand and cast swarf, simply wasn’t clean out properly at the factory, I have changed the compound clamps to a 4 bolt where it was only 2 and put button oilers in the cross slide, you couldn’t oil the ways otherwise, I’ve cut many threads with it and the change gears are easy to deal with, for the price it’s a great little lathe, thanks for taking the time to show all these, it’s certainly a great topic, take care, Matty
Hi Matty, it was a good price comparo I thought. You can do a lot of mods on the 9 x 20's to improve them. Basically a good value lathe in need of some upgrades. A lot of auto electricians use them for commutator machining. Cheers Rob
Just in time! Although fantastic machines, My schaublins & Weilers were getting more and more difficult to use due to a general lack of availability of parts (In India!) plus the difference in bore sizes, chuck systems, tool holders, etc was driving me nuts. The lockdown put the final nail in the coffin, as lathe operators or any other personnel were no longer available to operate or maintain the machines. Finally I sold the entire lot and cleaned shop. I'm looking to buy a couple of new machines for CNC'ing later on, This video helped me enormously!
NOTE: the upper price limit on small lathes considered for this award is $2k AU. That's reasonably affordable, and generally safe, for what are probably beginners and learners intending to get into metal work. I've given my thoughts on the pro's and cons of important issues to be aware of. At the end of the day it's a purely personal choice as to the size you feel you "need" for the work envelope. RC enthusiasts, jewellers and clock makers will probably want to go smaller. If you want to spend more, that's your choice, but not what this video is about. Cheers Rob
Technically, the TU-2506V normally retails for $2,300 and would only qualify when it is on sale, though for Hare and Forbes that is nearly 50% of the time.
Yes, but as I stated in the video description, if they increase the price it automatically gets disqualified and the Paramount unit then gets the gong. He He be interesting to see how long they hold out. It is good value at the current price though. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu It's their standard three times a year sale. You only pay full price at Hare & Forbe if you need something straight away, otherwise it is better to wait a month for the next sale.
Thanks for the positives Tony. There's a lot of distorted truths out there that unfortunately people pushing their own barrow like to tell newbies. It's a minefield of misinformation. I can only point them in (what I think) is the right direction to try and give them some guidance. Ultimately most back yarders will be quite happy with a lathe in the upper size limit dealt with here. Over capitalizing and buying the wrong machine for your (lack of) experience or expected work envelope is something all beginners can get caught out on. We've all been there. I can't really address the pro's and cons of large lathes as they are outside of my requirements and not something I use regularly. We do have a very big one up the farm, but it is scary dangerous and not something that gets much use. Cheers Rob
Fantastic review Rob and just in time. I’ve been going round in circles trying to find a small lathe. The issues you raised are the same I had observed, but it took me a lot longer to get there. The other thing I didn’t like about the TU was the way the tool pressure vector, theoretical line of pressure trying to resist the cutting force, has too many steps before it gets down to the carriage. I still haven’t found the ideal machine yet, and as you say, they don’t make then like they use to.
Didn't know variable speed was more delicate but makes perfect sense. I didn't bother to look up AU prices compared to US but you weren't kidding, I wonder why so much cheaper in oz. Hobby CNC lathes much more common than 5 yr ago, not practical for repair/model engr. though. Thanks for going into depth!
The main drawback with DC is that you have to reduce voltage to reduce speed, and correspondingly that reduces power. A geared AC motor will always supply full torque, but a DC motor does not (for a lower spindle speed) and under load will labour more. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu come to think of it, my two small lathes are both powered by permanent magnet brushless motors. One is (supposedly) 750w chinese sewing machine servo, other is surplus inrunner/esc powered by 400w server power supply. Sewing machine motor has very high torque but delay in feedback loop is awkward on interrupted cuts. The hobby ESC arrangement doesn't have as much low end torque but is very light and modular, similar to your tool post drill setup. I think a two step pulley with hobby ESC is best of both worlds, with minimal speed overlap. All economical ways to get a variable speed drive under 1hp. A little light for the class of lathes you are discussing.
Thanks Rob, I've been thinking about buying a lathe for years now, always a reason why I can't spend the money on me. I live in Spain now, will most likely buy a HBM or Holzmann re-badged lathe, one day. Thanks for the guidance.
Everyone has different needs and wants but if I were buying a new lathe I would want a gunsmith lathe they have a nice large bore in the head stock. Keep on keeping on.
No problem Harold. You're an experienced lathe guy and that counts. This video is mainly for newbies and learners so things are a bit different for them. Cheers Rob
The expandable cover on the leadscrew is a good option, my HBM 250g, a 250/550mm 12 geared lathe (rather than variable) doesn't have one and I'm always picking out swarf from the lead screw. the reason i got the geared lathe is because the variable motors were crapping out quite often, it also came with left/right threading and propper dovetailed(not T slot) power cross slide, 2 years on I'm still happy with it, only complaint is you always need a bigger one. 😊 The strange thing I noticed on the TU 2506V is the carraige wheel and half nut engagement lever are reversed compared to usual, might take a bit of getting used to, especially in an emergency. You should do a similar video on milling machines, as you don't have one yet, it would be interesting to see what your priorities are for getting a first milling machine.
The covers are good Derek. The leadscrew and half nuts look like new after 20 years regular use. I use Loctite 771 lube on it. Stays in place and no metal bleeding. It's messy stuff so it's only suitable for covered application. Cheers Rob
Yes Paul, buying a new lathe is a head bang and you need to be aware of quite a few issues. I tried to cover the basics, but there are obviously a lot more considerations. Cheers Rob
Hi Rob, I have the TU-2506V Opti-Turn and the biggest problem I have is that there is no GIB adjustment for the Y axis. It moves at will and there is no way to lock Y axis.
Hi Manuel, I find that very hard to believe. It has no external gib adjusting screws (despite what the manual shows), but I think you will find it has an adjuster for a tapered gib on the front right hand side of the cross slide. There appear to be three screws and a plate there. Investigate that closely. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu Hi Rod, it does have that 3mm screw adjust but it does nothing but bend the plate and no help in tightening up the slide and no lock at all. I have just bought a mill and plan on taking it all apart and drilling and installing side gib adjusters. Cheers Manuel
Hi Manuel, interesting comment. I've not heard of this as an issue before. Maybe you have a bad unit. I would pull it down and see what the problem is. Might just need a de-burr etc. If poor design then your conversion might be the go. Good to get feedback from owners. Cheers Rob
@@DaHappyHooker The T-Slots get in the way of installing side gib adjusters, plus you would be drilling through the weak spot of the cross slide. The lack of a cross slide lock is a real issue if you add on the BF20AV mill head.
Rob you mention the Sherline lathe having the cross slide T slots running across the narrow width of the cross slide, i know your old model has this. But current Sherlines have them running from front to rear like the TU-2506, with the T slot on the current Sherline you can also get warping on the slide if you tighten down tool posts a bit to heavy. In my case on my Sherline i have a QR tool post bolted on the front of the slide + sometimes a rear mounted parting tool bolted on, with the 2 bolted on you can feel the cross slide hand wheel tighten where the slide is distorted due to 2 toolposts being mounted. As soon as you release the bolt holding 1 of the 2 posts down you instantly notice the hand wheel easier & smoother to turn, obviously due to the aluminium cross slide on the current Sherlines.
I've got a baby optiturn, tu1503v. The build quality is questionable. I had to strip it to clean out all the grinding dust. The electronics are not mounted properly, built to break. (there's a thin plastic sheet wedged between the PCB and a heatsink; if it vibrates enough, it will eventually short out). So, it needs a few mods before I use it again; imho the optiturns are off my list. I've also got a proxxon pd400, great lathe, but, a little too small and pricey (damn accurate though), and with out a quick change gear box, it's annoying to change the gears, especially during winter in Melbourne! Back on the optiturns, and similar; one thing to keep in mind with the variable speed DC lathes, the DC motors are driven by a PWM wave; they have no balls when driven slowly. Maybe the newer ones are better now, I'm not sure. Anyway, I picked this one as my next one, I've been saving for it for the last 10 months... Nearly there. Plus I moved into a bigger place, so I have the room; I didn't when I bought the other two, the 1503 was in the kitchen! lol. Yep, pricey, but, not much more than the pd400. www.machineryhouse.com.au/L237 yep, I already had a sparky install an extra 15a plug when I moved in. :-). Plus it's Taiwanese, so I expect better quality than the Chinese ones. It may be overkill, but, I'm loving machining, I have the bug, best hobby yet, and this beast should outlive me. :-). Thanks for the videos and tips; enjoyable and informative. :-)
DC power drops off with the fed voltage. The motor has to be more powerful to begin with, to allow for this deficiency compared to geared belt AC. Been there and done that and gone back to AC. But a lot of people don't like getting their hands dirty swapping belts, so continuously variable appeals to them. It's a bit over rated IMHO. Cheers Rob
Dear, I want to but a small and precision lathe bcoz I want to produce small and precision pieces for the instrumentation industry, I don't know if Proxxon PD400 is better or a TU2004V?!
Actually I like the cross feed because it often gives you a better finish than winding manually, but power cross feed is also more expensive. Also the revolutions are the key to feed slowing near the centre, it's the revs that drop - as you get closer to the centre of the workpiece you get closer to absolute zero speed, so the need to increase revs is important. On a CNC lathe the revs gradually increase as you get closer to centre, you don't have that on a manual lathe.
Power cross feed doesn't usually compensate for work radius variation. Spindle speed is locked into the same cross feed ratio regardless of any change to spindle speed. With HSS the lack of variation in cross feed speed isn't a big deal, but with carbide things are much different - it doesn't like having a very fine feed rate.
@@Xynudu With CNC's carbide is pretty much a given, rarely use HSS, so that's probably why variable speed is standard. I still feel I can get a better finish using power but it isn't that much of a deal, given the price difference between small lathes with and without PCF it wouldn't be a deal breaker if I was thinking about buying one.
Wait, some German brand oem from “you know where” launch a new series with build in digital reading on cross slide (using digital caliper style display) and auto feed. Price at 1000 euro. No dro monitor anymore of cause. I guess this setting will flood the market in the next year? Currently i saw a 6 inch chuck, but obviously 8 inch can be done, who don't want a instant cnc lathe? The brand name look like this: Drehmaschine The brand name look suspicious...... The first part and the last part. Well, a lathe is a lathe, the cnc kitchen channel just get one with 4 inch chuck, i am not in the position to say it is good or not, you got to refer to the owners comment.
Hi, I went looking for the unit you described. I think you will find the word Drehmaschine simply means "Turning Machine" in German. The model you were looking at on that other channel is a Sieg SC2. Sieg being quite a big name in the world of cheap lathes.
Hi Colum, It gets people thinking about the pro's and con's of the various options. Marketing can really screw things up, as in the case of the totally unnecessary "T" slots. Who is ever going to use them ? Surely the compound will need to be as far back towards the user as possible ? But it looks good and sucks people in. Pity about the loss of rigidity it obviously causes, on lathes that can ill afford it the most. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu Hi. Do you mean "T" slots on the cross slide? These are useful for, remove the tool post, clamp a cylinder on the cross slide and bore with a fly cutter. Can't always grab the piece to be machined in the chuck. "T" slots = good. Thanks for the video, as you say gets people thinking. I would love to get my hands on an old Myford Super 7. Hi from New Zealand btw. Have fun out there.
Interesting comparison Rob,informative as always.I have the Paramount model,good so far with a few mods.Replacement belts including that strange timing belt are available from Adelaide Belt and Hose in Mile End Regards John K
Thanks for the info John. I go to Adelaide Belt and Hose. Do you have a belt part number/identifier ? Paramounts have nothing spare wise from my experience, so I was expecting you would need to go to CBC or similar. Cheers Rob
Thanks Rob another interesting video, I have had a TU-2506V for several years now, it lacks a bit of torque at low speed, that being said the convenience of the variable speed is a game changer and the build quality is good in my opinion so think it’s well worth the money.
The torque drop off is to be expected with DC drive. As you reduce the voltage to reduce the spindle speed, torque falls off accordingly. This doesn't happen with a geared drive system and you get full power always. That's why I mentioned that the Paramount lathe would be better for heavy going, even though it has a less powerful motor. Cheers Rob
I've found no issue with my tu2506v. Most of my turning is steel. Up to say 125 dia . Obviously taking heavy cuts in steel on large diameters requires using the low range pulley set but if you do this i find it has more grunt than a barnyard full of pigs. You need a complete lack of feel for the task at hand to stall it or (more likely) an oops moment like an unintentionally aggressive feed on an interrupted cut, or a wrong direction cutter "withdraw" that instead jams it into the work (only did it once). In normal machining it has plenty of grunt for anything i ask of it intentionally.
And these days they are not just reducing drive voltage to vary the speed (precisely because as Rob says this would reduce torque). It would be more likely some form of chopper thyristor system at minimum.
No, they still only do it with voltage variation. So torque will always be reduced. That's why they use a much larger KW motor, to try and compensate for the drop off. Brushless DC motors also generate more heat than brushed, so most will have a thermal cutout included to prevent the magic smoke from occurring ;) I rang H& F to get info on the motor and it was a total waste of time. Cheers Rob
I have the BF-20AV mill on my lathe and using the cross slide as the table is pretty poor. It is too narrow to fit a decent vice, and too high to give much useful Z axis travel with a vice fitted. The table is only 100mm wide in the X axis and the Y axis travel is also very restricted, limiting the size of any workpiece to about 100mm square. The cross slide also doesn't have a lock on the Y axis.
Those bolt on mills lever the lathe bed badly and are just a really bad idea. They have all the problems you outlined. Better to go stand alone and be able to upgrade either as the need arises. Plus the bolt on mills just suck really badly. Cheers Rob
Hi Rob Great video.. the AL 51 G appears to have a lot more material around the dovetails and it also come with a 4 jaw chuck and face plate. I’ve been looking for a while and am surprised at the lack of second hand units out there. Max of Hallett Cove
Hi Max, you rarely see small modern (Chinese) lathes for sale locally. They obviously do the job. I asked Michael at Paramount Browns how many CQ9325 lathes (mine) they had sold and he said "heaps". I have never seen one come up for sale secondhand. Mine is dead accurate and easily meets spec. You can't ask for more than that. Cheers Rob
Have been looking & $6k buys me something rough. Still only made (in speeds) for hss. I asked salesman how much accuracy I'd get for this & he's reply was it's only a cheap chuck...? All readouts some tooling & single phase. Cheers
at my job i have 4 24" chucks, 1 28 inch chuck. they are a huge pain to move off of there, but they have to be cleaned pretty frequently, considering all we machine is cast iron.
That's big. My Bro-inlaw has 14" chucks and it's a monster at that size. But it's horses for courses. Cleaning those big ones regularly would be a chore. I guess you have a small crane to move them. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu yup! The 24" ones are on Warner and swasey 4A's and the 28" one is on a Gisholt 5L, which are hexagonal turret lathes. I think the youngest machine we have was made in the fifties. Still all used as high production machines. And yeah, we have 2 ton jib cranes to load stuff on them :) largest thing I've machined was on the gisholt, a 20" OD 40" long cast iron bar, trepanned a 11.25" hole in it. It was pretty squirrelly.
Thanks Rob... I have an older 9x20 and agree with your comments on the T-slots... Total junk. Mine have all cracked at the bolt points (upgraded 4 bolt tool post bracket). No benefits to a T-slot and is a week spot.
Hi Neil, yes it's a dumb idea, on small lathes particularly. It amazes me that even though all the various faults of the 9 x 20 are well and long known, the only improvements have been largely incidental (cam lock etc). It's got huge potential, but the fixes just don't happen. Cheers Rob
Thanks for the update, good information. I'm on the downhill slide towards 80, so I think I'll muddle through to the end with my old Grizzly. Thanks for the video
Iv just put hold on the fi-610sm from paramount browns but am yet to find any reviews on this lathe.... have enjoyed watching your videos mate Any advice review or info would be great
Within saying that the advertised price for the lathe im waiting on is $2350 with stand I actually got a better deal now waiting to pickup when the shipment arrives
Hi Darren, I was looking over a MMD46 ex-display mill they have going at a reduced price the other day and was very tempted, but just too big for the available workshop space. Good saving. They don't often sell display stock and it made me wonder if they might get some mid sized units in - would be more popular. Cheers Rob
Nah I actually have brought lots from them but had poor service monday the smaller lathe isn’t worth it as you buy everything separate i called up on the Tuesday and got a decent guy who explained everything that is included etc and i watched your video from four years ago and actually said to them why the price differences i said yes four years ago but surly there’s room to move on the 2350 guy tried giving me a crap story about they’re not sure what they’ve paid yet etc i said look mate just wanna know if you’ll beat the price got it fingers cross they honour it but $1950... they’re restocked end of next month
Would really love to see a video on sharpening cutters and thread cutting New to this style lathe always had smaller hobby sorta old lathes nothing with the powered cross slide etc
Watch my next video. I shot some footage today of the FL-550 lathe. Also ALL of the milling machines are gone. Every single one of them. Somethings happening. Cheers Rob
I know nothing about that lathe Mark. It's larger than I would use or recommend for hobby use, so it's not on my radar. Most of the larger lathes in that size range look OK, but how well they perform I can't say. Good luck. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu thanks for getting back to me I have been talking the Hare and Forbes and I have ordered both the TU-3008G Lathe and the Hafco HM-46B with DRO I understand this setup is far above what is needed for a home machine shop but I had the money available since I retired and lots of time to fill now so I splurged and treated my self.
Some good comparisons/reviews there Rob. I probly would have gone for the TU250 or similar but with a bigger budget. Don't have to worry now cos recently I finally got the 13x40 beast home, a lovely bit of gear ( thanks Dad ) that probly wont get the use it deserves but at least it's there if I need it 😁 Also sending you an email.
Mostly these lathes come out of China. I have a couple of Sieg lathes and have no major problems with either. The failing in building these is the requirements of the buying company and the level of oversight provided by the customer. One of the Queensland machinists bought the cheapest lathe he could find and did about a dozen posts on rectifying all the faults. His lathe appeared to have been assembled from the scrap parts bin. That said Hare and Forbes, as well as Sieg both seem to do it right. As for drive belts, CBC bearings can source any belt. I have spares for all my belts purchased through CBC. A great report Rob.
Biggest fault with Siege is price, no quick change gearbox, and no reverse tumbler. I wouldn't buy one. You pay a lot for red paint IMHO. It's still a Chinese lathe and is nothing special - just good marketing. Cheers Rob
Are you a Kiwi ? AL 336 from Hafco is the Go. I bought mine from Ozmestore at Birkenhead for 1800 but he doesn't sell them any more which is a shame cos good value for its size.
I disagree heavily on some points. No need for MT3 in the TS as far as centers go, even 14" lathes back in the day only had MT2. It is nice for drills. Power cross feed is no big deal? Heavily disagree. When you're facing off a 3" chunk of steel and hot chips are flying everywhere, the last thing you want is to have your hands right in the line of fire taking the heat. No thank you. Looks like yours doesn't have actual feeds either, just useing slow threads for the feeding. Not a big fan of that either, just wears out the leadscrew. Not a big fan of electronic speed control either. These modern lathes are so good in some areas, and so bad in others. I use an old Rockwell 10" lathe. It's got a much better and more powerful mechanical variable speed drive with a backgear, full QCGB and all that jazz, but a tiny, narrow little cross-slide. The full length wide cross on modern lathes is just so much better. Looks like the modern south bend heavy 10 ticks all my boxes, but for a mere $7500 it's not for the faint of heart.
Mechanical reduction gearing rules. Electronic drive is very popular/trendy, but hasn't got the goods under serious load. I would buy the Paramount lathe, but I can collect at no cost. The final outcome is in line with overall cost, features and of course the $2K upper limit to the rest of Australia. Cheers Rob.
Horses for courses i suppose Rob ,my min would be a 38mm spindle bore, 8inch chuck and separate feed rod and leadscrew ,you can always do small jobs on a bigger lathe .your lathe is on the limit of what i'd call a toy ,But the prefect size for you
People say that, but in reality it's a horrible experience. No tactile feel, large jaws with poor minimum diameter grip range, heavy chucks to swap out. No thanks. Not for me. Cheers Rob.
@@Xynudu mines a forbes al-330a iv had it for 20 years now excellent machine for what i do, Far from a horrible experience with good feel and control (i also make a lot of tiny parts ) i have a range of chucks from 4 to 8 inch and collets ,i will admit the big 4 jaw is heavy but manageable .
Dear, what do you think about the Proxxon PD400? I want to buy a small and precision lathe for the instrumentation industry. Please help me bcoz I really need some help. Thanks
Hi Ali. I can't give any thoughts on this lathe as I have never seen or used it. You can only research it on line with info from users. It all comes down to how precise you need and how much you are prepared to spend. It also depends what type of lathe you are looking to buy. There are highly regarded precision lathes such as Schaublin available, but are basic layout and expensive. Cheers Rob
The Aus Dollar stands at £0.56 so it looks like we are being ripped off in England. Difficult to make direct comparison but I recon we're paying + 50%.
Wow. I was a bit shocked when I looked at USA prices recently in regard to a viewer comment. Makes you wonder what's really going on. Cars are dirt cheap in the USA but not lathes. Interesting stuff Lee. Cheers Rob
Hi Stephen, the milling column is bolted to the rear of the lathe bed, not the cross slide. You can bolt a vertical mill slide (different thing) to the cross slide, but I don't believe it is available as an OEM lathe option. The "T" slots could be used to mount a base table for a mill column, but once again I am unaware of an OEM option for that. Combo lathe/mill machines have a built in table and are more complete in this aspect. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu yes the mill is attached to the rear of the bed, the cross slide is used to mount the work piece hence the t slots to mount a vice or other mounting/attachment options...
Hi Stephen, It's the largest lathe available without a quick change gearbox for the feed rate - hopeless. That says it all. Plus the minimum longitudinal feed rate sucks badly (too high) for HSS finishing with something like a shear tool. By now you would have guessed I don't like it. It is a lot of bread for such a seriously deficient lathe. Don't get sucked in by the geared head. There's more to lathes than that ;) I would never recommend it. Cheers Rob
The AL250G ticks all the boxes, but still has build issues : ruclips.net/video/MDyWz0T2Jf8/видео.html When it was first introduced a number of owners posted their woes on a popular Australian metal work forum. It still has a big question mark over it. I gave my most recent best bang for buck award in these two videos: ruclips.net/video/XHukTFd1Zow/видео.html and ruclips.net/video/15z-4FFelXw/видео.html Either of those lathes are worth considering. Cheers Rob
One good thing with the machines with an induction motor is you can always change it out for a 3ph motor and an inverter to get the variable speed that the dc units have but it won't have the grunt at low speed like a DC motor . It might be worth looking at some of the Sieg lathes as well - the C6 and C10 look ok and run hi torque brushless motors - Aussie tools sell them - they also sell the wedge type QCTP in various sizes that will fit most lathes from the little C2 mini lathe (7x10 - 7x12) and up - just a fyi for anyone looking for a QCTP and i have no affiliations with them ! .
Hi Ian, the problem with variable speed DC is that to get the low speed you have to reduce the voltage and therefore the power. An AC motor with mechanical speed reduction will actually increase the available torque through multiplication. That's why I said that the Paramount lathe would be better for heavy going, even though it has the less powerful motor. Gearing is everything. I've played around with variable DC and know how this all works/doesn't work. It's OK for medium/light going but make it work and things will not be as good as an AC mechanical variation drive. That's why the DC motor is almost twice as powerful as the AC Paramount unit - to try and compensate for the trade off. Cheers Rob
xynudu I agree that the induction motor with various mechanical speed settings is the more robust way and more reliable . With DC it is not a voltage change but rather more like someone turning the power switch on and off at a varying frequency , with brushless it is sort of like a combination of stepper motor and 3 ph . Either way there is some sort of electronics that can fail where as the trusty induction motor just keeps chugging on ! I just spent the day trying to sort out the overheating bearing on that shitty little C2 Sieg which i had fitted with taper bearings - looking at the tracking pattern on the outer race it appears as the bearing bore in the headstock is not round or parallel and probably not in alignment with each other ! Bastard machine is lucky i broke my 15lb sledge hammer many years ago
Some people still think Seig is higher quality, but not IMHO. Just an overpriced Chinese lathe/mill with less features. You do get red paint, but that's about all that stands out. The quality is just ordinary, they have similar problems to the rest. I notice that very few places sell much Seig stuff these days. I guess people have woken up on it. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu Nup not saying Sieg is of any Quality - quite the opposite - just thought it might be interesting to compare these to the lathes you have done a comparison on . IMHO i would recommend a good used Hercus 260 over any Chinese made machine. I have the AL320 lathe that i re built and it has one thing that really pisses me off - the selector lever for cross or long feed. The basic principle is ok but you end up with this dicky little lever that has no detents and its travel from cross to long feed is too close together . I ended up drilling some holes for a pin that stops one from shifting from cross to long feed accidentally . One thing with the Optimum machines is you get stuff all in the way of things like face plates , 4 jaw chucks , steadies and the like but the AL51 you get the lot even though the 4 jaw is the most useless hunk of shit i have ever seen ! Why do these manufacturers insist on supplying the stupid tool kit for their machines ? Crap tools that i would rather see the money go into the quality of the machine ! After a day of frigging around with the Sieg C2 it appears the problem is to do with the bores where the spindle bearings mount - the wear pattern on the taper bearings indicates a bearing housing that is not round nor parallel heap of shit !.
How do you put up with no QCGB on the AL320G ? That could be a good lathe if (and it should) have one. It has to be the largest lathe sold without a QCGB. But people still seem to buy it, maybe the geared head sucks them in. Hercus are OK, but every one I've looked at has been worn (some horribly). Cheers Rob
Hi Robert, Yes they are also a lot more expensive in the USA, even considering our lower Australian dollar exchange rate. Strange. Maybe Trump has put some sort of import tax on them. Maybe it's the "Chicken " tax some more. Cheers Rob
Problem with the AL 50 series is the drive belt cost a fortune and the optimum units use the or similar style of belt but two of the bastards ! The optimum and the al 51 both state hardened beds and i can tell you this is bullshit - you get a lathe with a real hardened bed and a bloody file skids across it . I had the original al 50g for many years and its main drawbacks were no tumbler gear , zinc cast half nuts , no lever lock tailstock, a screw on chuck that increased overhang and the machine couldn't cut the 4 tpi thread to make its own chuck plates . The optimum unit is a better machine but uses the lead screw to do power feed where as the AL50 uses a worm wheel and thus saves wear on the lead screw. Today a was stuffing around with a heavily modified C2 Sieg lathe that has a problem with overheating spindle bearings and all the while i was thinking why did i ever bother with this piece of shit ! I can see it getting cut up and converted to a tool and cutter ot cam grinder !
Hi Ian, It amazes me that all the long established and well known 9 x 20 faults haven't been addressed by now. It's been around for a very long time. Cheers Rob
xynudu Hi Rob, I noticed they have fitted a tailstock lever lock, some more oilers , a better half nut lever and slightly better handles but that is it . They still have a very narrow cross slide with tiny dovetails and i think the horrible low speed overload clutch that used to slip when parting off . It really is a shame as it could be a fantastic little machine ! They now sell the screw on back plates for this machine so replacing the shit four jaw with a real one is now easier . Ian.
@@Xynudu Want to be able to redo my brake discs and drums. They're like owning boats aren't they. You finally get one - then you just want a bigger one.
I remember going into Hare and Forbes, and every lathe had something I didn’t like about it, including your preferred one on this list. I have an Australian made 70 year old New Gregco and it has the carriage dial on the left and cross slide on the right, which I’m use to now and obviously prefer. The Opti-Turn is opposite, also the Opti-Turn dials seem to be too close to each other for my liking. Good review but anyone considering one has to stand in front of it and have a play to be sure.
Yes, for sure. But you get used to anything after a while. My old Schaublin has a cross slide and a tailstock that turn counter clockwise to advance them. Everything looks original and some early brands did make them that way (for whatever reason). It actually works well on the tailstock as you are pulling rather than pushing the wheel/handle and it's much less tiring in a manufacturing scenario. Cheers. Rob
Machining newbie looking for your view on lathe mill/drill combo’s? Are they worth avoiding? Are there benefits? Space, cost, power, features. Saw this negative review of the TU2506V and would be interested in your thoughts. ruclips.net/video/F-4aYQJEn3o/видео.html
I hadn't seen that video before. Totally what I expected. Those bolt on mills are crap. You will get flex in the column AND from twist in the lathe bed. Lathe beds are designed for force to be applied at centre line. It's pretty obvious the leverage from that mill column will flex buggery out of the lathe. Swapping out the change gears is normal/no big deal, that setup is actually pretty easy. The way the end cover comes off is a bit crude though, but you only need to do the nuts up finger tight. The Paramount example actually has knurled nuts. They do it that way so you can put the lathe back close to a wall. If the cover swung back (as on my CQ9325) the wall will be in the way. Having said that, a swing away cover is less hassle for sure. The half nut lever breaking a pin is a bit odd, but an easy fix. Quite a few Chinese manufacturers seem to be bending the truth about "German" involvement lately. I've seen it on tooling as well - if people actually believe that BS then they are pretty dimwitted IMHO. In a nutshell, the lathe is good, the bolt on mill is crap and you will ALWAYS be better off with separate units that give you more work clearance and can be independently upgraded if the need arises. I hope this helps. Cheers Rob
xynudu Cheers Rob! Do you do Mill review videos? What’s your recommendation for best value Mill 2020 if the Optimum doesn’t exactly live up to it’s name? (Also, do you take client work?)
I've seen that video. I don't see the issue. The main problem is the shitty bolt on mill, which is bound to fail in that configuration. The lathe itself doesn't get too many complaints. Cheers Rob
As we all know It’s a hard decision when buying a lathe, mill etc when your budget is relatively low and you want the best quality/accuracy from the machine. ATM I’ve got a chance of buying a EMCO MAXIMAT MENTOR 10 in really good condition for 2700 nzd. Without tooling. (No mill attachment) . I get get the TU 2506V brand new here for 2519 nzd. So it’s a toss up between new with tinkering or old with the possibility that parts are harder to come by and some worn areas I might find later
Hi Pat, have a look at Cliff's Shed on YT as he recently bought the same model Emco lathe: ruclips.net/video/YxvcRMRnJz4/видео.html They have several known weaknesses (fibre gear and push button switches) but not a show stopper. Cliff has done a series of videos on it and the problems (mostly minor) that he had with it. Cliff is a nice guy and will almost certainly help you out if you want to Email or comment to him. Tell him Xynudu (Rob) referred you. Cheers
hello Rob,
very nice description on all the lathes that are out there to purchase,and you made a good point about the drive belts.what i did early on was find an old mill an lathe.that had a timing belt..what i did was to quickly change them to belt drives using ,"O" ring material.and it all worked out especially on the mill that i had .when a belt dried out and broke all i did was go the the hardware store and pick up a large enough piece of "O" ring material and super glue it and i was on my way with no lost time......well i just thought i would share my story with you.
Hi Ray, I have seen people convert the Gilmer Belt pulleys to "V" belt and it all worked out OK. i don't see any benefit from a toothed belt except that it can't slip. Cheers Rob
I bought a Chinese combined lathe & mill sold by Hafco and its well made but the assembly was hopeless.
It made a knocking noise, I suspected maybe a drive gear cog missing a tooth maybe, but once I got it home and took a look, the drive cogs were all perfect.
So then I decided it had to be the electric motor.
In removing the drive belt to unbolt the motor and free run it, to see if the noise was coming from the motor, I pulled the drive pulley off the drive shaft to find that the woodruff key which should have secured it was missing completely and at assembly they just mounted the drive pulley 180 degrees out of sync & tightened the grub screw down into the woodruff key slot.
It was the slop between grub screw & woodruff key slot that was making the knocking noise.
Bought a woodruff key from an engineering shop supply, backed the grub screw out, spun the pulley 180 degrees, slid woodruff key into its slot on the shaft and matching slot on the pulley then tightened the grip screw on the back of the shaft where it was supposed to go, & the noise completely vanished.
A few months later after some sporadic use the electric motor just died - I suspect a capacitor has died, yet to fix it.
The gibs on the cross slide and tail stock were all catywompuss and nothing slid or stayed square / true, like it should have, took forever to get that sorted out.
I’m pretty leery of buying anything else Chinese that Hare & Forbes sell cheap to be honest.
The only real issue is, what else can you buy Thats any better these days? Older Taiwanese lathes? Older Japanese Lathes?
Good to get feedback Ian. I rang them for some info on that variable lathe and the guy I spoke to had no idea on anything. He tried to be helpful, but the whole event was very unprofessional. Then again I've had the same thing happen at Paramounts. Those guys were probably selling fridges one day and lathes the next ;) Cheers Rob
xynudu Indeed Rob, I’m headed down to Hare & Forbes in Monday with the lathe / mill motor to see if I can find a replacement. It’s only a capacitor that’s shot so I might try & find another one of those & repair the original motor & keep it as a spare.
I’ll be looking at maybe a new bigger better lathe with dro’s etc while I’m there, after watching your video, it got me inspired to maybe upgrade to something better.
It's only money. Can't take it with you ;)
Hi Rob, great review and you make some good comments. I have a 1984 Hafco AL 320 from memory and I like it. It has a 38mm spindle, power feed with reverse tumbler on the bed and cross feed and a gap bed which I have never used. Even though the cross slide doesn’t have T slots there is still flex at the cutting tip. Unfortunately it’s all belt feed except for the back gears. Last year the motor literally went up in smoke but Hare & Forbes had a replacement on the shelf except it was 2hp instead of the original 1hp. Not bad for a near 40 year old Taiwanese lathe. It’s been a great little unit and does most things I need.
I did a conversion on my 6” lininsher from Ac to a Dc motor from a treadmill. This went very well as it has given me almost infinite speed adjustment from around 300rpm to about 4000rpm but one down side to Dc is it will slow down a lot more under load than Ac. On the sander it’s not a problem but on a lathe or drill press that this can be a big problem so I’m assuming the Dc lathe has some kind of speed compensators.
Cheers Rob, Stu. 🇦🇺
Yes, that's a downside of DC. There is no way to compensate for the torque drop off except to use gearing. Input voltage, torque and armature speed all go hand in hand. That's why I mentioned the Paramount lathe would be better for heavy going. Cheers Rob
Gday Rob, I have the Hare and Forbes AL51G lathe and over all its not a bad little lathe, the biggest issue I have is the size of the drive belt, it’s only 5mm wide and at low rpm it will slip, I wish it had a reverse tumbler to do left hand threads but on the other hand I haven’t done a project yet that has needed it, I have changed the spindle bearings, the head stock was full of sand and cast swarf, simply wasn’t clean out properly at the factory, I have changed the compound clamps to a 4 bolt where it was only 2 and put button oilers in the cross slide, you couldn’t oil the ways otherwise, I’ve cut many threads with it and the change gears are easy to deal with, for the price it’s a great little lathe, thanks for taking the time to show all these, it’s certainly a great topic, take care, Matty
Hi Matty, it was a good price comparo I thought. You can do a lot of mods on the 9 x 20's to improve them. Basically a good value lathe in need of some upgrades. A lot of auto electricians use them for commutator machining. Cheers Rob
Just in time! Although fantastic machines, My schaublins & Weilers were getting more and more difficult to use due to a general lack of availability of parts (In India!) plus the difference in bore sizes, chuck systems, tool holders, etc was driving me nuts. The lockdown put the final nail in the coffin, as lathe operators or any other personnel were no longer available to operate or maintain the machines. Finally I sold the entire lot and cleaned shop. I'm looking to buy a couple of new machines for CNC'ing later on, This video helped me enormously!
Glad you got something out of it. The comments are also well worth reading, as an expansion of what was in the video. Cheers Rob
I agree I have a 18" swing lathe and its a pain just cranking the carriage back and forth for small hobby jobs
NOTE: the upper price limit on small lathes considered for this award is $2k AU. That's reasonably affordable, and generally safe, for what are probably beginners and learners intending to get into metal work. I've given my thoughts on the pro's and cons of important issues to be aware of. At the end of the day it's a purely personal choice as to the size you feel you "need" for the work envelope. RC enthusiasts, jewellers and clock makers will probably want to go smaller.
If you want to spend more, that's your choice, but not what this video is about. Cheers Rob
Technically, the TU-2506V normally retails for $2,300 and would only qualify when it is on sale, though for Hare and Forbes that is nearly 50% of the time.
Yes, but as I stated in the video description, if they increase the price it automatically gets disqualified and the Paramount unit then gets the gong. He He be interesting to see how long they hold out. It is good value at the current price though. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu It's their standard three times a year sale. You only pay full price at Hare & Forbe if you need something straight away, otherwise it is better to wait a month for the next sale.
Good info for viewers Dean. Cheers Rob
Thanks for the positives Tony. There's a lot of distorted truths out there that unfortunately people pushing their own barrow like to tell newbies. It's a minefield of misinformation. I can only point them in (what I think) is the right direction to try and give them some guidance. Ultimately most back yarders will be quite happy with a lathe in the upper size limit dealt with here. Over capitalizing and buying the wrong machine for your (lack of) experience or expected work envelope is something all beginners can get caught out on. We've all been there. I can't really address the pro's and cons of large lathes as they are outside of my requirements and not something I use regularly. We do have a very big one up the farm, but it is scary dangerous and not something that gets much use. Cheers Rob
Fantastic review Rob and just in time. I’ve been going round in circles trying to find a small lathe. The issues you raised are the same I had observed, but it took me a lot longer to get there. The other thing I didn’t like about the TU was the way the tool pressure vector, theoretical line of pressure trying to resist the cutting force, has too many steps before it gets down to the carriage. I still haven’t found the ideal machine yet, and as you say, they don’t make then like they use to.
Yes, you can see why I have no plans to change the CQ9325 Jon. A lot of the design is marketing related now. Cheers Rob
Didn't know variable speed was more delicate but makes perfect sense. I didn't bother to look up AU prices compared to US but you weren't kidding, I wonder why so much cheaper in oz. Hobby CNC lathes much more common than 5 yr ago, not practical for repair/model engr. though. Thanks for going into depth!
The main drawback with DC is that you have to reduce voltage to reduce speed, and correspondingly that reduces power. A geared AC motor will always supply full torque, but a DC motor does not (for a lower spindle speed) and under load will labour more. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu come to think of it, my two small lathes are both powered by permanent magnet brushless motors. One is (supposedly) 750w chinese sewing machine servo, other is surplus inrunner/esc powered by 400w server power supply. Sewing machine motor has very high torque but delay in feedback loop is awkward on interrupted cuts. The hobby ESC arrangement doesn't have as much low end torque but is very light and modular, similar to your tool post drill setup. I think a two step pulley with hobby ESC is best of both worlds, with minimal speed overlap. All economical ways to get a variable speed drive under 1hp. A little light for the class of lathes you are discussing.
Interesting thoughts Rob , ENJOYED !!
Thanks Rob, I've been thinking about buying a lathe for years now, always a reason why I can't spend the money on me. I live in Spain now, will most likely buy a HBM or Holzmann re-badged lathe, one day. Thanks for the guidance.
Hi Ken, the HBM lathes and equipment appears to be very similar to Paramount Browns. Cheers Rob
Thankyou for your truthful information and helping me to buy my first lathe.
You're welcome. I hope you enjoy using it. Cheers Rob
Hi Rob,all good info you've covered here. Should be really helpful to a newbie purchaser.
Everyone has different needs and wants but if I were buying a new lathe I would want a gunsmith lathe they have a nice large bore in the head stock. Keep on keeping on.
No problem Harold. You're an experienced lathe guy and that counts. This video is mainly for newbies and learners so things are a bit different for them. Cheers Rob
i had the HBM version and it's realy nice! would never have sold it if i didnt need a bigger lathe
Great video, thank you. I learnt lots from this so thank you for putting it together.
Glad it was helpful!
The expandable cover on the leadscrew is a good option, my HBM 250g, a 250/550mm 12 geared lathe (rather than variable) doesn't have one and I'm always picking out swarf from the lead screw. the reason i got the geared lathe is because the variable motors were crapping out quite often, it also came with left/right threading and propper dovetailed(not T slot) power cross slide, 2 years on I'm still happy with it, only complaint is you always need a bigger one. 😊
The strange thing I noticed on the TU 2506V is the carraige wheel and half nut engagement lever are reversed compared to usual, might take a bit of getting used to, especially in an emergency. You should do a similar video on milling machines, as you don't have one yet, it would be interesting to see what your priorities are for getting a first milling machine.
The covers are good Derek. The leadscrew and half nuts look like new after 20 years regular use. I use Loctite 771 lube on it. Stays in place and no metal bleeding. It's messy stuff so it's only suitable for covered application. Cheers Rob
Hi Rob thanks for the reviews certainly food for thought well done.
Yes Paul, buying a new lathe is a head bang and you need to be aware of quite a few issues. I tried to cover the basics, but there are obviously a lot more considerations. Cheers Rob
Hi Rob,
I have the TU-2506V Opti-Turn and the biggest problem I have is that there is no GIB adjustment for the Y axis. It moves at will and there is no way to lock Y axis.
Hi Manuel, I find that very hard to believe. It has no external gib adjusting screws (despite what the manual shows), but I think you will find it has an adjuster for a tapered gib on the front right hand side of the cross slide. There appear to be three screws and a plate there. Investigate that closely. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu I would also be very surprised if there wasn't a taper key type GiB adjuster.
@@Xynudu Hi Rod, it does have that 3mm screw adjust but it does nothing but bend the plate and no help in tightening up the slide and no lock at all. I have just bought a mill and plan on taking it all apart and drilling and installing side gib adjusters.
Cheers Manuel
Hi Manuel, interesting comment. I've not heard of this as an issue before. Maybe you have a bad unit. I would pull it down and see what the problem is. Might just need a de-burr etc. If poor design then your conversion might be the go. Good to get feedback from owners. Cheers Rob
@@DaHappyHooker The T-Slots get in the way of installing side gib adjusters, plus you would be drilling through the weak spot of the cross slide. The lack of a cross slide lock is a real issue if you add on the BF20AV mill head.
I don't understand why the price hasn't come down. Years and years of producing the same stuff and they still don't come with cnc electronics.
Rob you mention the Sherline lathe having the cross slide T slots running across the narrow width of the cross slide, i know your old model has this. But current Sherlines have them running from front to rear like the TU-2506, with the T slot on the current Sherline you can also get warping on the slide if you tighten down tool posts a bit to heavy. In my case on my Sherline i have a QR tool post bolted on the front of the slide + sometimes a rear mounted parting tool bolted on, with the 2 bolted on you can feel the cross slide hand wheel tighten where the slide is distorted due to 2 toolposts being mounted. As soon as you release the bolt holding 1 of the 2 posts down you instantly notice the hand wheel easier & smoother to turn, obviously due to the aluminium cross slide on the current Sherlines.
Even cast iron cross slides will flex. Yes. the new Sherlines have the longitudinal "T" slot blight. Stupid idea. Cheers Rob
I've got a baby optiturn, tu1503v. The build quality is questionable. I had to strip it to clean out all the grinding dust. The electronics are not mounted properly, built to break. (there's a thin plastic sheet wedged between the PCB and a heatsink; if it vibrates enough, it will eventually short out). So, it needs a few mods before I use it again; imho the optiturns are off my list. I've also got a proxxon pd400, great lathe, but, a little too small and pricey (damn accurate though), and with out a quick change gear box, it's annoying to change the gears, especially during winter in Melbourne! Back on the optiturns, and similar; one thing to keep in mind with the variable speed DC lathes, the DC motors are driven by a PWM wave; they have no balls when driven slowly. Maybe the newer ones are better now, I'm not sure. Anyway, I picked this one as my next one, I've been saving for it for the last 10 months... Nearly there. Plus I moved into a bigger place, so I have the room; I didn't when I bought the other two, the 1503 was in the kitchen! lol. Yep, pricey, but, not much more than the pd400. www.machineryhouse.com.au/L237 yep, I already had a sparky install an extra 15a plug when I moved in. :-). Plus it's Taiwanese, so I expect better quality than the Chinese ones. It may be overkill, but, I'm loving machining, I have the bug, best hobby yet, and this beast should outlive me. :-). Thanks for the videos and tips; enjoyable and informative. :-)
DC power drops off with the fed voltage. The motor has to be more powerful to begin with, to allow for this deficiency compared to geared belt AC. Been there and done that and gone back to AC. But a lot of people don't like getting their hands dirty swapping belts, so continuously variable appeals to them. It's a bit over rated IMHO. Cheers Rob
Dear, I want to but a small and precision lathe bcoz I want to produce small and precision pieces for the instrumentation industry, I don't know if Proxxon PD400 is better or a TU2004V?!
Actually I like the cross feed because it often gives you a better finish than winding manually, but power cross feed is also more expensive. Also the revolutions are the key to feed slowing near the centre, it's the revs that drop - as you get closer to the centre of the workpiece you get closer to absolute zero speed, so the need to increase revs is important. On a CNC lathe the revs gradually increase as you get closer to centre, you don't have that on a manual lathe.
Power cross feed doesn't usually compensate for work radius variation. Spindle speed is locked into the same cross feed ratio regardless of any change to spindle speed. With HSS the lack of variation in cross feed speed isn't a big deal, but with carbide things are much different - it doesn't like having a very fine feed rate.
@@Xynudu With CNC's carbide is pretty much a given, rarely use HSS, so that's probably why variable speed is standard. I still feel I can get a better finish using power but it isn't that much of a deal, given the price difference between small lathes with and without PCF it wouldn't be a deal breaker if I was thinking about buying one.
Wait, some German brand oem from “you know where” launch a new series with build in digital reading on cross slide (using digital caliper style display) and auto feed. Price at 1000 euro. No dro monitor anymore of cause. I guess this setting will flood the market in the next year? Currently i saw a 6 inch chuck, but obviously 8 inch can be done, who don't want a instant cnc lathe?
The brand name look like this:
Drehmaschine
The brand name look suspicious...... The first part and the last part. Well, a lathe is a lathe, the cnc kitchen channel just get one with 4 inch chuck, i am not in the position to say it is good or not, you got to refer to the owners comment.
Hi, I went looking for the unit you described. I think you will find the word Drehmaschine simply means "Turning Machine" in German. The model you were looking at on that other channel is a Sieg SC2. Sieg being quite a big name in the world of cheap lathes.
hare and forbes AL-250G - Bench Lathe is the lathe i bought 2019,currently selling for $2300au.its hard to pick a fault with it so far.
Hi Geoffrey, not in the price range for the video. Cheers Rob
Depends upon what you can afford, and are willing to pay for a hobby you may not like. Cheers Rob
Hi geoff I have same on back order at the moment. Hoping I made right decision.
Hi Geoffrey- I’m looking at the AL250 too. Is it still keeping you happy? It looks like a fairly solid and straightforward unit.
Great vid. Thanks Rob
Thanks, good food for thought
Hi Colum, It gets people thinking about the pro's and con's of the various options. Marketing can really screw things up, as in the case of the totally unnecessary "T" slots. Who is ever going to use them ? Surely the compound will need to be as far back towards the user as possible ? But it looks good and sucks people in. Pity about the loss of rigidity it obviously causes, on lathes that can ill afford it the most. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu Hi. Do you mean "T" slots on the cross slide? These are useful for, remove the tool post, clamp a cylinder on the cross slide and bore with a fly cutter. Can't always grab the piece to be machined in the chuck. "T" slots = good.
Thanks for the video, as you say gets people thinking. I would love to get my hands on an old Myford Super 7.
Hi from New Zealand btw. Have fun out there.
@@Xynudu 👍
Interesting comparison Rob,informative as always.I have the Paramount model,good so far with a few mods.Replacement belts including that strange timing belt are available from Adelaide Belt and Hose in Mile End Regards John K
Thanks for the info John. I go to Adelaide Belt and Hose. Do you have a belt part number/identifier ? Paramounts have nothing spare wise from my experience, so I was expecting you would need to go to CBC or similar. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu No I don't have numbers,just took old belts in and they worked out the dimensions
OK. So how long did the original timing belt last and what killed it ? Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu Probably excess lube on the gear train,my bad!
The change gears do spray it around somewhat.
Thanks Rob another interesting video, I have had a TU-2506V for several years now, it lacks a bit of torque at low speed, that being said the convenience of the variable speed is a game changer and the build quality is good in my opinion so think it’s well worth the money.
The torque drop off is to be expected with DC drive. As you reduce the voltage to reduce the spindle speed, torque falls off accordingly. This doesn't happen with a geared drive system and you get full power always. That's why I mentioned that the Paramount lathe would be better for heavy going, even though it has a less powerful motor. Cheers Rob
I've found no issue with my tu2506v. Most of my turning is steel. Up to say 125 dia . Obviously taking heavy cuts in steel on large diameters requires using the low range pulley set but if you do this i find it has more grunt than a barnyard full of pigs. You need a complete lack of feel for the task at hand to stall it or (more likely) an oops moment like an unintentionally aggressive feed on an interrupted cut, or a wrong direction cutter "withdraw" that instead jams it into the work (only did it once).
In normal machining it has plenty of grunt for anything i ask of it intentionally.
And these days they are not just reducing drive voltage to vary the speed (precisely because as Rob says this would reduce torque). It would be more likely some form of chopper thyristor system at minimum.
Thanks for the feedback. Cheers Rob
No, they still only do it with voltage variation. So torque will always be reduced. That's why they use a much larger KW motor, to try and compensate for the drop off. Brushless DC motors also generate more heat than brushed, so most will have a thermal cutout included to prevent the magic smoke from occurring ;) I rang H& F to get info on the motor and it was a total waste of time. Cheers Rob
All gone up $200 - $300 since this video. I was already looking into No.1 & No.3. I wasn't aware of No.2.
Additionally the TU-250V can attach a mill (BF-20AV) if you're tight on space. Same top as on the BF-20ALV but using the lathe as a table.
I have the BF-20AV mill on my lathe and using the cross slide as the table is pretty poor. It is too narrow to fit a decent vice, and too high to give much useful Z axis travel with a vice fitted. The table is only 100mm wide in the X axis and the Y axis travel is also very restricted, limiting the size of any workpiece to about 100mm square. The cross slide also doesn't have a lock on the Y axis.
Those bolt on mills lever the lathe bed badly and are just a really bad idea. They have all the problems you outlined. Better to go stand alone and be able to upgrade either as the need arises. Plus the bolt on mills just suck really badly. Cheers Rob
Hi Rob
Great video.. the AL 51 G appears to have a lot more material around the dovetails and it also come with a 4 jaw chuck and face plate. I’ve been looking for a while and am surprised at the lack of second hand units out there. Max of Hallett Cove
Hi Max, you rarely see small modern (Chinese) lathes for sale locally. They obviously do the job. I asked Michael at Paramount Browns how many CQ9325 lathes (mine) they had sold and he said "heaps". I have never seen one come up for sale secondhand. Mine is dead accurate and easily meets spec. You can't ask for more than that. Cheers Rob
Have been looking & $6k buys me something rough. Still only made (in speeds) for hss. I asked salesman how much accuracy I'd get for this & he's reply was it's only a cheap chuck...? All readouts some tooling & single phase. Cheers
at my job i have 4 24" chucks, 1 28 inch chuck. they are a huge pain to move off of there, but they have to be cleaned pretty frequently, considering all we machine is cast iron.
That's big. My Bro-inlaw has 14" chucks and it's a monster at that size. But it's horses for courses. Cleaning those big ones regularly would be a chore. I guess you have a small crane to move them. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu yup! The 24" ones are on Warner and swasey 4A's and the 28" one is on a Gisholt 5L, which are hexagonal turret lathes. I think the youngest machine we have was made in the fifties. Still all used as high production machines. And yeah, we have 2 ton jib cranes to load stuff on them :) largest thing I've machined was on the gisholt, a 20" OD 40" long cast iron bar, trepanned a 11.25" hole in it. It was pretty squirrelly.
Thanks for the info
Thanks Rob... I have an older 9x20 and agree with your comments on the T-slots... Total junk. Mine have all cracked at the bolt points (upgraded 4 bolt tool post bracket). No benefits to a T-slot and is a week spot.
Hi Neil, yes it's a dumb idea, on small lathes particularly. It amazes me that even though all the various faults of the 9 x 20 are well and long known, the only improvements have been largely incidental (cam lock etc). It's got huge potential, but the fixes just don't happen. Cheers Rob
Thanks for the update, good information. I'm on the downhill slide towards 80, so I think I'll muddle through to the end with my old Grizzly. Thanks for the video
Yes, I'm cracking 70 and have no plans to change. So long as it does the job and you know it backwards, why change ? Cheers Rob
Iv just put hold on the fi-610sm from paramount browns but am yet to find any reviews on this lathe.... have enjoyed watching your videos mate Any advice review or info would be great
Within saying that the advertised price for the lathe im waiting on is $2350 with stand I actually got a better deal now waiting to pickup when the shipment arrives
Hi Darren, I was looking over a MMD46 ex-display mill they have going at a reduced price the other day and was very tempted, but just too big for the available workshop space. Good saving. They don't often sell display stock and it made me wonder if they might get some mid sized units in - would be more popular. Cheers Rob
Nah I actually have brought lots from them but had poor service monday the smaller lathe isn’t worth it as you buy everything separate i called up on the Tuesday and got a decent guy who explained everything that is included etc and i watched your video from four years ago and actually said to them why the price differences i said yes four years ago but surly there’s room to move on the 2350 guy tried giving me a crap story about they’re not sure what they’ve paid yet etc i said look mate just wanna know if you’ll beat the price got it fingers cross they honour it but $1950... they’re restocked end of next month
Would really love to see a video on sharpening cutters and thread cutting New to this style lathe always had smaller hobby sorta old lathes nothing with the powered cross slide etc
Watch my next video. I shot some footage today of the FL-550 lathe. Also ALL of the milling machines are gone. Every single one of them. Somethings happening. Cheers Rob
Excellent info Rob. Thanks!
I have just ordered a TU-3008G from Hare & Forbes have you tested this lathe. What do you think.
I know nothing about that lathe Mark. It's larger than I would use or recommend for hobby use, so it's not on my radar. Most of the larger lathes in that size range look OK, but how well they perform I can't say. Good luck. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu thanks for getting back to me I have been talking the Hare and Forbes and I have ordered both the TU-3008G Lathe and the Hafco HM-46B with DRO I understand this setup is far above what is needed for a home machine shop but I had the money available since I retired and lots of time to fill now so I splurged and treated my self.
Great way to fill time in your retirement Mark. Play safe. Cheers Rob
Some good comparisons/reviews there Rob. I probly would have gone for the TU250 or similar but with a bigger budget. Don't have to worry now cos recently I finally got the 13x40 beast home, a lovely bit of gear ( thanks Dad ) that probly wont get the use it deserves but at least it's there if I need it 😁
Also sending you an email.
I would be interested to see some pictures of it Bill. OK I see the email and have pinged you back. Cheers Rob
Hi Rob,
Good review...
Cheers
Paul,,
Thanks 👍
Mostly these lathes come out of China. I have a couple of Sieg lathes and have no major problems with either.
The failing in building these is the requirements of the buying company and the level of oversight provided by the customer.
One of the Queensland machinists bought the cheapest lathe he could find and did about a dozen posts on rectifying all the faults. His lathe appeared to have been assembled from the scrap parts bin.
That said Hare and Forbes, as well as Sieg both seem to do it right.
As for drive belts, CBC bearings can source any belt. I have spares for all my belts purchased through CBC.
A great report Rob.
Biggest fault with Siege is price, no quick change gearbox, and no reverse tumbler. I wouldn't buy one. You pay a lot for red paint IMHO. It's still a Chinese lathe and is nothing special - just good marketing. Cheers Rob
Are you a Kiwi ? AL 336 from Hafco is the Go. I bought mine from Ozmestore at Birkenhead for 1800 but he doesn't sell them any more which is a shame cos good value for its size.
No.
No. That lathe is too big and too expensive for the subject of the video.
I disagree heavily on some points. No need for MT3 in the TS as far as centers go, even 14" lathes back in the day only had MT2. It is nice for drills. Power cross feed is no big deal? Heavily disagree. When you're facing off a 3" chunk of steel and hot chips are flying everywhere, the last thing you want is to have your hands right in the line of fire taking the heat. No thank you. Looks like yours doesn't have actual feeds either, just useing slow threads for the feeding. Not a big fan of that either, just wears out the leadscrew. Not a big fan of electronic speed control either. These modern lathes are so good in some areas, and so bad in others. I use an old Rockwell 10" lathe. It's got a much better and more powerful mechanical variable speed drive with a backgear, full QCGB and all that jazz, but a tiny, narrow little cross-slide. The full length wide cross on modern lathes is just so much better. Looks like the modern south bend heavy 10 ticks all my boxes, but for a mere $7500 it's not for the faint of heart.
Mechanical reduction gearing rules. Electronic drive is very popular/trendy, but hasn't got the goods under serious load. I would buy the Paramount lathe, but I can collect at no cost. The final outcome is in line with overall cost, features and of course the $2K upper limit to the rest of Australia. Cheers Rob.
Horses for courses i suppose Rob ,my min would be a 38mm spindle bore, 8inch chuck and separate feed rod and leadscrew ,you can always do small jobs on a bigger lathe .your lathe is on the limit of what i'd call a toy ,But the prefect size for you
People say that, but in reality it's a horrible experience. No tactile feel, large jaws with poor minimum diameter grip range, heavy chucks to swap out. No thanks. Not for me. Cheers Rob.
@@Xynudu mines a forbes al-330a iv had it for 20 years now excellent machine for what i do, Far from a horrible experience with good feel and control (i also make a lot of tiny parts ) i have a range of chucks from 4 to 8 inch and collets ,i will admit the big 4 jaw is heavy but manageable .
@@Xynudu Much easier to be accurate on larger lathes.
Are you for real ? What absolute BS. Tell a clock or watch maker or tool maker that. LOL
@@Xynudu lol i am a toolmaker
Dear, what do you think about the Proxxon PD400? I want to buy a small and precision lathe for the instrumentation industry. Please help me bcoz I really need some help. Thanks
Hi Ali. I can't give any thoughts on this lathe as I have never seen or used it. You can only research it on line with info from users. It all comes down to how precise you need and how much you are prepared to spend. It also depends what type of lathe you are looking to buy. There are highly regarded precision lathes such as Schaublin available, but are basic layout and expensive. Cheers Rob
The Aus Dollar stands at £0.56 so it looks like we are being ripped off in England. Difficult to make direct comparison but I recon we're paying + 50%.
Wow. I was a bit shocked when I looked at USA prices recently in regard to a viewer comment. Makes you wonder what's really going on. Cars are dirt cheap in the USA but not lathes. Interesting stuff Lee. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu Lathes don't go driving around on salted roads, would be my guess.
Hi Mark, Maybe it's more of the "Chicken" tax being used to keep 4x4's and other stuff from competing with USA built items. Cheers Rob
Hi Rob, what is the difference between a bench lathe and a centre lathe?
Same thing, just a different size.
The T slots in the cross slide would be for using the optional milling attachment wouldn't it?
Is there one ?
@@Xynudu Yes, here is the same lathe with the milling attachment.... www.machineryhouse.com.au/K146
Hi Stephen, the milling column is bolted to the rear of the lathe bed, not the cross slide.
You can bolt a vertical mill slide (different thing) to the cross slide, but I don't believe it is available as an OEM lathe option.
The "T" slots could be used to mount a base table for a mill column, but once again I am unaware of an OEM option for that.
Combo lathe/mill machines have a built in table and are more complete in this aspect.
Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu yes the mill is attached to the rear of the bed, the cross slide is used to mount the work piece hence the t slots to mount a vice or other mounting/attachment options...
Hi Rob, what are your thoughts on the Hare & Forbes AL-320g lathe, currently it is on special...
Hi Stephen, It's the largest lathe available without a quick change gearbox for the feed rate - hopeless. That says it all. Plus the minimum longitudinal feed rate sucks badly (too high) for HSS finishing with something like a shear tool. By now you would have guessed I don't like it.
It is a lot of bread for such a seriously deficient lathe. Don't get sucked in by the geared head. There's more to lathes than that ;)
I would never recommend it. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu What would you recommend instead? There's not too many suppliers around Brisbane...
@@Xynudu Rob, Is the AL-250G a better option despite being smaller? Cheers, Stephen
The AL250G ticks all the boxes, but still has build issues : ruclips.net/video/MDyWz0T2Jf8/видео.html
When it was first introduced a number of owners posted their woes on a popular Australian metal work forum. It still has a big question mark over it.
I gave my most recent best bang for buck award in these two videos: ruclips.net/video/XHukTFd1Zow/видео.html
and
ruclips.net/video/15z-4FFelXw/видео.html
Either of those lathes are worth considering.
Cheers Rob
One good thing with the machines with an induction motor is you can always change it out for a 3ph motor and an inverter to get the variable speed that the dc units have but it won't have the grunt at low speed like a DC motor .
It might be worth looking at some of the Sieg lathes as well - the C6 and C10 look ok and run hi torque brushless motors - Aussie tools sell them - they also sell the wedge type QCTP in various sizes that will fit most lathes from the little C2 mini lathe (7x10 - 7x12) and up - just a fyi for anyone looking for a QCTP and i have no affiliations with them ! .
Hi Ian, the problem with variable speed DC is that to get the low speed you have to reduce the voltage and therefore the power. An AC motor with mechanical speed reduction will actually increase the available torque through multiplication. That's why I said that the Paramount lathe would be better for heavy going, even though it has the less powerful motor. Gearing is everything. I've played around with variable DC and know how this all works/doesn't work. It's OK for medium/light going but make it work and things will not be as good as an AC mechanical variation drive. That's why the DC motor is almost twice as powerful as the AC Paramount unit - to try and compensate for the trade off. Cheers Rob
xynudu
I agree that the induction motor with various mechanical speed settings is the more robust way and more reliable .
With DC it is not a voltage change but rather more like someone turning the power switch on and off at a varying frequency , with brushless it is sort of like a combination of stepper motor and 3 ph .
Either way there is some sort of electronics that can fail where as the trusty induction motor just keeps chugging on !
I just spent the day trying to sort out the overheating bearing on that shitty little C2 Sieg which i had fitted with taper bearings - looking at the tracking pattern on the outer race it appears as the bearing bore in the headstock is not round or parallel and probably not in alignment with each other !
Bastard machine is lucky i broke my 15lb sledge hammer many years ago
Some people still think Seig is higher quality, but not IMHO. Just an overpriced Chinese lathe/mill with less features. You do get red paint, but that's about all that stands out. The quality is just ordinary, they have similar problems to the rest. I notice that very few places sell much Seig stuff these days. I guess people have woken up on it. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu
Nup not saying Sieg is of any Quality - quite the opposite - just thought it might be interesting to compare these to the lathes you have done a comparison on .
IMHO i would recommend a good used Hercus 260 over any Chinese made machine.
I have the AL320 lathe that i re built and it has one thing that really pisses me off - the selector lever for cross or long feed.
The basic principle is ok but you end up with this dicky little lever that has no detents and its travel from cross to long feed is too close together .
I ended up drilling some holes for a pin that stops one from shifting from cross to long feed accidentally .
One thing with the Optimum machines is you get stuff all in the way of things like face plates , 4 jaw chucks , steadies and the like but the AL51 you get the lot even though the 4 jaw is the most useless hunk of shit i have ever seen !
Why do these manufacturers insist on supplying the stupid tool kit for their machines ?
Crap tools that i would rather see the money go into the quality of the machine !
After a day of frigging around with the Sieg C2 it appears the problem is to do with the bores where the spindle bearings mount - the wear pattern on the taper bearings indicates a bearing housing that is not round nor parallel
heap of shit !.
How do you put up with no QCGB on the AL320G ? That could be a good lathe if (and it should) have one. It has to be the largest lathe sold without a QCGB. But people still seem to buy it, maybe the geared head sucks them in. Hercus are OK, but every one I've looked at has been worn (some horribly). Cheers Rob
Good you live in Oz....up to 3000 Euro in Europe!same machine....
Hi Robert, Yes they are also a lot more expensive in the USA, even considering our lower Australian dollar exchange rate. Strange. Maybe Trump has put some sort of import tax on them. Maybe it's the "Chicken " tax some more. Cheers Rob
Problem with the AL 50 series is the drive belt cost a fortune and the optimum units use the or similar style of belt but two of the bastards !
The optimum and the al 51 both state hardened beds and i can tell you this is bullshit - you get a lathe with a real hardened bed and a bloody file skids across it .
I had the original al 50g for many years and its main drawbacks were no tumbler gear , zinc cast half nuts , no lever lock tailstock, a screw on chuck that increased overhang and the machine couldn't cut the 4 tpi thread to make its own chuck plates .
The optimum unit is a better machine but uses the lead screw to do power feed where as the AL50 uses a worm wheel and thus saves wear on the lead screw.
Today a was stuffing around with a heavily modified C2 Sieg lathe that has a problem with overheating spindle bearings and all the while i was thinking why did i ever bother with this piece of shit ! I can see it getting cut up and converted to a tool and cutter ot cam grinder !
Hi Ian, It amazes me that all the long established and well known 9 x 20 faults haven't been addressed by now. It's been around for a very long time. Cheers Rob
xynudu
Hi Rob,
I noticed they have fitted a tailstock lever lock, some more oilers , a better half nut lever and slightly better handles but that is it .
They still have a very narrow cross slide with tiny dovetails and i think the horrible low speed overload clutch that used to slip when parting off .
It really is a shame as it could be a fantastic little machine !
They now sell the screw on back plates for this machine so replacing the shit four jaw with a real one is now easier .
Ian.
Where was it made?
They are all made in China.
So why didn't you post this video three months ago buyer's remorse
What did you buy ?
My next lathe will be an old Japanese one, I reckon...if the wife will allow it.
So it's going to be a big one ?
@@Xynudu Want to be able to redo my brake discs and drums. They're like owning boats aren't they. You finally get one - then you just want a bigger one.
You have to have a need for one. Cheers Rob
I remember going into Hare and Forbes, and every lathe had something I didn’t like about it, including your preferred one on this list.
I have an Australian made 70 year old New Gregco and it has the carriage dial on the left and cross slide on the right, which I’m use to now and obviously prefer. The Opti-Turn is opposite, also the Opti-Turn dials seem to be too close to each other for my liking.
Good review but anyone considering one has to stand in front of it and have a play to be sure.
Yes, for sure. But you get used to anything after a while. My old Schaublin has a cross slide and a tailstock that turn counter clockwise to advance them. Everything looks original and some early brands did make them that way (for whatever reason). It actually works well on the tailstock as you are pulling rather than pushing the wheel/handle and it's much less tiring in a manufacturing scenario. Cheers. Rob
This guy sounds like chopper reed
If you hear a knock on the door, don't answer it.
xynudu I’m ready
Machining newbie looking for your view on lathe mill/drill combo’s? Are they worth avoiding? Are there benefits? Space, cost, power, features. Saw this negative review of the TU2506V and would be interested in your thoughts. ruclips.net/video/F-4aYQJEn3o/видео.html
I hadn't seen that video before. Totally what I expected. Those bolt on mills are crap. You will get flex in the column AND from twist in the lathe bed. Lathe beds are designed for force to be applied at centre line. It's pretty obvious the leverage from that mill column will flex buggery out of the lathe. Swapping out the change gears is normal/no big deal, that setup is actually pretty easy. The way the end cover comes off is a bit crude though, but you only need to do the nuts up finger tight. The Paramount example actually has knurled nuts. They do it that way so you can put the lathe back close to a wall. If the cover swung back (as on my CQ9325) the wall will be in the way. Having said that, a swing away cover is less hassle for sure. The half nut lever breaking a pin is a bit odd, but an easy fix. Quite a few Chinese manufacturers seem to be bending the truth about "German" involvement lately. I've seen it on tooling as well - if people actually believe that BS then they are pretty dimwitted IMHO. In a nutshell, the lathe is good, the bolt on mill is crap and you will ALWAYS be better off with separate units that give you more work clearance and can be independently upgraded if the need arises. I hope this helps. Cheers Rob
xynudu Cheers Rob! Do you do Mill review videos? What’s your recommendation for best value Mill 2020 if the Optimum doesn’t exactly live up to it’s name? (Also, do you take client work?)
I watched this .... ruclips.net/video/F-4aYQJEn3o/видео.html. when looking at the TU 260v. Put me off a bit.
I've seen that video. I don't see the issue. The main problem is the shitty bolt on mill, which is bound to fail in that configuration. The lathe itself doesn't get too many complaints. Cheers Rob
As we all know It’s a hard decision when buying a lathe, mill etc when your budget is relatively low and you want the best quality/accuracy from the machine. ATM I’ve got a chance of buying a EMCO MAXIMAT MENTOR 10 in really good condition for 2700 nzd. Without tooling. (No mill attachment) . I get get the TU 2506V brand new here for 2519 nzd. So it’s a toss up between new with tinkering or old with the possibility that parts are harder to come by and some worn areas I might find later
Hi Pat, have a look at Cliff's Shed on YT as he recently bought the same model Emco lathe: ruclips.net/video/YxvcRMRnJz4/видео.html
They have several known weaknesses (fibre gear and push button switches) but not a show stopper.
Cliff has done a series of videos on it and the problems (mostly minor) that he had with it. Cliff is a nice guy and will almost certainly help you out if you want to Email or comment to him. Tell him Xynudu (Rob) referred you. Cheers
Thanks for that. As it happens someone else bought that lathe before I could get there. So I’m back looking at Chinese again