Nice pun VAS! Unbelievably pathetic behaviour from him. Consequences need to be given for situations like this, as it pays to WAIT for dead air or consult the charts in front of you!
And yet... what was the deviation?! They needed to confirm the heading, they clearly were annoyed at all the blocks, but they didn't insult or do anything too radio-uncouth, and just as clearly they couldn't follow the heading if they didn't know it. They were annoyed and that may have been unwarranted, but I can't possibly see how they deviated.
Okay I haven’t watched this video but can we lay off the “DREADED PHONE NUMBER” bit? I’ve been a controller with the FAA for over 16 years, and asking pilots to call is not a big deal. When I answer these phones calls it’s usually a genial “hey, here’s what went wrong and here’s how you can help us out in the future. Any questions? Have a nice day and stay safe.” Even when referred to FSDO, it is very unlikely that a pilot deviation will result in adverse action against the pilot. It is possible, but happens in very few actual cases. I’ve seen these meme about calling ATC grow over the past couple of years, and I honestly think it’s detrimental to aviation safety. It contributes to us pilots v. Controllers mindset which is very unhelpful. Fly safe, follow the rules and ATC instructions, and if you’re asked to call the facility after your flight don’t think it will necessarily involve immediate revocation of your certificate.
It's the famous dreaded phone number and will ever be when accompanied by "possible pilot deviation". Of course it's not that bad. Just talk about it, exchange POVs and look for safety. That's what it's all about
@@mememaster123Yeah, youtube channels can alter election results and disrupt our democratic process in violent ways. But there’s no way it can affect pilots. 🙄 I think the controller makes a valid point.
That's one way to look at it... the other way to look at it is, it's a reminder to keep yourself in line and to do the best job you can do. No, most calls are not actions taken against the pilot, but it COULD be, and that's enough for many pilots.
5:00 Jet 820> " what was the possible deviation?" ATC> "you got did you got the phone number sir? Jet 820> "yeah" ATC> *moves on to directing more traffic*
Dude had no time for an explanation, sounds like he barely has time for a sip of coffee between calls, poor guy. Wow, is that ever a busy airspace... Nice to hear that most people (and especially that ATC) take care to enunciate properly. No time wasted over misunderstandings and say-agains.
@@Theonedjneono, this guy was a safety hazard on Execjet. He was blocking the radio and no one could comm. If the comms can’t go out quick it could cause a collision (or increase risk in Swiss cheese model).
No audacity there at ALL. Just frustration. Cause IF he´d had the heading incorrect, the dreaded telephone call could have been about something worse, like an airspace violation or the like. If you have never been in that situation, stfu. If you have been - as I have multiple times - then you should know better.
You can hear this ATC has a rhythm. I think the pilot maybe finally figured that out. You gotta jump in or you’re stepping on him. None of this is easy, I’m thinking. Especially in an air space like that. I’ve heard less busy ATC word vomiting so fast half the pilots have to make them repeat it. This guy is measured and clear. My vote is - well done!
Decades ago (1986ish), I considered applying for an ATC job. Instead, I went into public safety dispatching. I highly doubt I could have handled ATC as well as this guy just did!
@@chrisharkins6929 Ok you pull the tin out of your famiilies' asses after the crash, macho-man. Try getting your mind out of the tower and up into the levels. They need to change the "C" in ATC to a female body part, the way some of them treat pilots, who they SERVE.
Holy crap, that controller is amazing, to speak that quickly, and yet annunciate the most important parts so well, THAT is what a crazy busy controller should sound like.
@@Haarschmuckfachgeschafttadpole hehe, quite a lack of understanding there. The controller needed to get the pilot to stop complaining and clog up the airwaves. Giving a number is the fastest way to kick someone in the butt a little and quiet them down. The phone conversation was probably: let us not do that again, ok? It was the right call
@@Theonedjneo , he repeated back the assigned heading then copped an attitude and kept stepping on radio traffic. When you repeat it back, you acknowledged the instruction. If you get confused after that don't get pissy with ATC because you fucked up?
When a frequency is so congested that there are no momentary quiet periods, then there is an issue with that sector that needs solving. If the Upjet was trying to declare a MAYDAY or PAN instead, no one would be angry with him. Yes he got annoyed that he was constantly stepped on. Yes he should have got the heading first time, however, if they don't both confirm in the cockpit then they need to ask again.
Better to be safe than sorry. I don't think Upjet did anything wrong, maybe his attitude was a bit off but he needed to ask about the heading if he wasn't sure.
The issue with this sector supposedly *was* solved by switching from New York to Philadelphia TRACON, which happened just a couple of weeks ago. This was the solution.
The root cause of the problem is the outdated radio system used in Aviation. It basically is CSMA without CD (Carrier-Sense Multiple Access without Collision Detection). That means: everyone who wants to transmit first checks if the channel is free, then keys their transmitter, and does not know if someone else does the same thing. In a purely uncoordinated message distribution that achieves a channel efficiency of only 18.4%. In practice in Aviation it is a little better, because ATC functions as a central coordinator that sends messages to pilots, and pilots have to answer. Other pilots know not to try to transmit before they heard that pilot send their answer. So the message exchange is not purely uncoordinated. However, when a pilot wants to ask ATC something, it is uncoordinated and the efficiency is low. When the channel is fully loaded, communication collapses (a well known problem in CSMA). All other environments where mobile radio is used have upgraded to more modern systems, where the transmissions are coordinated by a more intelligent protocol. It is about time that Aviation does the same. Or, of course, we can wait until major accidents happen again and again.
Sometimes comms collisions are necessary, to avoid collisions of the Screaming and Fire sort. If you are calling "mayday mayday mayday" you don't need the computer deciding someone else keyed up 50ms before you and blocking you.
@@LjL-Videos It's blocked because the two signals make a heterodyne when combined...but you can still hear each transmission. An urgent MAYDAY might still be heard, although it doesn't inspire confidence and hopefully there will be more foolproof methods in the future.
agree, it's really wasteful to employ so many people to read a number off of a computer, to another guy over a shared radio frequency, so that he can copy it into his flight computer. 99% of the time, air traffic control could send computer instructions directly to the autopilot using an efficient waveform and it would all work fine (of course, under human supervision) the problem is that lots of government employees need jobs and nobody wants to change anything because they will be blamed for the next accident but yeah to your point anyone who knows anything about communications system theory will think that this method of controlling aircraft is wasteful and crazy
Can you imagine the chaos that would occur if they changed radio systems? Don't forget this is worldwide, and covers everything from huge commerical airliners to tiny little ultralights. Some drone operations also use radios to stay in communication with manned aircraft... That's hundreds of millions of radios that would need to be replaced/upgraded. Of course you could define the standard today, then have multimode radios that support both standards, and make the official changeover in about 10 years... But sometimes it's simpler to just stick with simple analogue.
Anyone who flies N90 (this sector) knows this is just another day - they are always busy, and you have to be on your game. In the off chance you’re above your head, there’s nothing wrong with clarifying, in fact it’s imperative if you’re not sure, and ATC will accommodate. If you’re not used to rapid fire- it’s usually rapid fire (0.5s delay between instruction / response), then after 3-4 a 2s pause for a few checking, rinse / repeat. But… when you create chaos on the frequency with extra comments, then doubling down with wanting to engage in dialogue- when you clearly hear what’s happening. That’s a special kind of tone deaf… Am a pilot, based in this airspace, been yelled at plenty by ATC for good reasons and bad- this just isn’t on ATC. Guarantee you 100% of pilots on that frequency that morning were rolling their, eyes, laughing, or annoyed the upjet was blocking their check ins.
@@JustSayN2O If you're the kind of pilot that says things like "with the flash" you're likely to be deficient in other ways. Like this pilot in the video that couldn't remember his assigned heading.
@@brameldm Agree. Just respond with the word "ident". "On the box" is another childish colloquialism I occasionally hear when pilots read back an initial clearance, referring to: 'transponder [code]'.
It isn’t that they’re not equipped. It’s that they’re not staffed-because the FAA has completely fucked away the ATC application, training, and assignment process. I guarantee in the next few years it will be cited in a mishap report as a contributory, if not causal, organizational-level failure.
The controller was super busy and doing an incredible job. I'm not sure how possible pilot deviation came into it. Though, I can see that the controller definitely didn't have time to be distracted by such attitude.
Retired PILOT here. That was very busy however, two times in my flying career heard it Twice as busy as this! That was when the controller never let go of the mike button! All aircraft on freq had to do what he said without replying!! You had to listen for your call sign VERY intently! Please reply if any of you have been in this situation. Btw. Both times was in the north east.
Upjet 820 started badly by being very slow and casual on the radio, wasting time. Every other pilot used concise clipped professional language just like the controller. The goal in a situation like this is to maximize information with minimum transmit time. That means no pauses, no um’s, no extra information the controller already has, no “story telling”. His first call was “Departure, Upjet 820 is with you on the departure climbing 1800 for 2000”. The concise first call would be “Departure, Upjet 820 1800 climbing 2000”. Second transmission was as bad as the first: “Alright, climb and maintain 4000, we’re with the flash, Upjet 820”. The better response would be “Ident, Climb 4000, Upjet 820”. Short. Sweet. I’m sure the controller was already annoyed. I did notice the second pilot in Upjet 820 was better, probably realized they were already screwed.
nil I don't think that has anything to do with it. If he had just waited and didn't tell the controller to stop stepping on him his phraseology would have went unnoticed.
I think ATC was just trying to convince the guy to call. I don’t think he was looking to get him in trouble. It probably is just “hey pilot, you realize that you blocked the comms? What helps is when I pause, wait 2 seconds then start talking. Here’s how it helps me when you…”.
Too much one way power- just how long and how many attempts should this pilot have to make to verify their clearance? There are small techniques he should've used- You really want him flying in a direction he's not sure of when it's that busy?
@@scottmitchell3761 No, but the attitude is unnecessary. It's clearly busy airspace, and having an attitude uses up more valuable time on frequency. Getting a number to call doesn't mean automatic license suspension. It means that a busy frequency isn't the place or time to have a disagreement. There's many legitimate reasons not to follow a controller's directions. They'll sort it out off-frequency when other people's lives don't depend on them.
probally called and controller said i cant see ya pressin that mic and i have other planes i need to talk to etc no doubt this died in the approach office but still good job on that controller for putting that pilot back in line
I really hope that CPDLC getting more widespread adoption will help resolve these congested frequencies and requests for confirmation. Just imagine the controller sending an SMS instruction to the pilot monitoring, pilot accepts the instruction, automatically loading the instruction into the Flight Management System correctly and confirming acceptance back to the controller. So much easier and less error prone!
2 месяца назад
CPDLC is a godsend, especially for frequencies and multiple clearances (speed+FL+waypoint).
CPDLC is used quite a lot but it has some delay so you cannot using during departure and arrival parts of flights so it wouldnt really help in this situation
Does CPDLC take human review by ATC completely out of the loop? How secure is it? Seems like it would be an obvious target for bad actors wanting to wreak havoc.
2 месяца назад+1
@@RickOSidhe VDL2 (and hence CPDLC) messages are neither encrypted nor signed, to my knowledge. It would theoretically be possible to inject your own messages... But the ground station would still receive the confirmation message (it'd probably throw it away?) and the Mode S DAPs would show the change of the selected FL on the MCP/FMS. CPDLC instructions still need to be executed by the pilot, so employing some caution and common sense is still necessary, as it has always been.
@@RickOSidhe No it does not take human review out of the loop - in fact this is actually one of the reasons it's not used in cases like this. In practice it is exactly like being on the phone with someone and them telling you to hang on a second so they can text you something. It takes longer than if they just told you. They have you on the phone anyway. What it does allow is for multiple instructions to get sent out at the same time. But it's still a controller sitting there doing it, then the pilots both have to look at it and make sure it makes sense, then press the "WILCO" button, then the "SEND" button, then wait for that to be done, then press the "CLEAR" button. Overall it takes a lot more time than just getting an instruction over the radio.
Just for a clarification the email that introduces the video indicates an Exec Jet (EJA) being the problem. WUP820 ''Upjet'' is operated by Wheels Up. Understandibly it gets confusing around EWR with ExecJet, FlexJet, FlexFlight, NetJets, UpJet, X-O-Jet, Cronos, GamJet, Goodspeed, VistaJet, JetCard they all look alike haha!
Is it not standard radio training everywhere to be as brief as possible, especially when the radio traffic is like this? Rather than taking several seconds to say "For upjet 820, just to confirm it was 120 on the heading?", they could have simply said "Departure, Upjet 820". It's brief, easier to fit in between traffic, less likely to block traffic, and departure is aware they need to speak to you when able at which point Upjet 820 would have the opportunity to speak the query. Also the pilot trying to discuss what was the possible deviation, on a frequency they know is under heavy traffic, is further exacerbating the situation. Regardless of if the pilots were in the right or wrong prior to this, don't keep tying up the frequency.
Big nothing burger. Controller just wants to talk to him. No deviation, regardless of what he said. Let's just stop trying to "roast" pilots on the Internet. Not helpful to anyone.
This one's kind of cool if you turn the sound down to about 20% on it, and play The Blue Danube Waltz in another tab. Maybe The Waltz of the Flowers from Tchaikovsky’s The Nutcracker, but it's shorter.
I was operating PTR2138 (“dashport 2138” -checks in on the radio at 2:53) and the FO and I listened to this entire upjet interaction happen before he could get a radio call in. This frequency is always incredibly congested but I was curious if this particular interaction was going to end up on VASAviation hahaha
The EWR frequencies in this area have been jammed like this since the switch to Philadelphia. I flew overhead VFR at 7,500 the other day -- they wouldn't take my handoff from Allentown, which is surprising since I'm overflying the bravo, and talking to me benefits them. Pretty sure an A320 got an RA on me. I tried to raise them VFR but, like this guy, couldn't get a word on the frequency. The N90 frequencies were more accommodating after crossing the Hudson.
Don't think anyone is rude or arrogant here. Work load is the culprit. Good god , ATC guy is like a robot. We are all at the mercy of his concentration and focus 😮
The reason why ATC combines back to back transmissions repeatedly is to alleviate pilots ability to get a transmission in. Its is how we control the frequency. We have a lot of planes that need instruction and not a lot of time to answer questions. Preferably, when we give a pilot an instruction, listen to confirm understanding of the instruction, and expect a pilot to execute the instruction. Pilots, in this situation, wait for the controller to pause a few seconds. By doing this, the controller is giving pilots an opportunity to ask questions or check on. That is our method of controlling the frequency.
I'm sorry but this seems like a wrong mindset towards ATC/Aircraft communication. Yes you are the Controller and you have to control. But any misunerstanding over the air will only affect the guys up there, and not you. That is why eliminating the means for the pilots to ask/interrupt the frequency is inherently a point of failure in the system. The only solution is to break up frequencies and sectors, but that requires manpower. Which we all know is the root of the problem these days.
We can't always tell when you pause for a few seconds. Especially when you're handling multiple channels and we can't hear the other traffic on the other frequency, so we have no idea whether you're pausing or if someone is responding to you. This pilot tried five times to catch a pause, and the sixth time made a longer transmission which was noticed. And, sometimes ATC needs to answer questions. Seems like a workload problem.
@@semaexmisunderstandings effect us too. It’s not that we don’t want pilots to get clarification, I encourage that. In this case, the controller assigned the heading, the pilot read the heading back correctly, and flew the assigned heading. Other things became priority for that controller. We have to mange priority transmissions in the way I explained earlier. If we leave space after every transmission for a possible questions, we would not be instructing in a timely manner.
I wonder when these phone calls actually happen, right after landing when the controller is still on duty? will the pilot talk to some other person who gets briefed in the meantime about the issue by the controller who gave the pilot the phone number?
whats with all the bots calling for radio coms to be ended ? next atc will be renamed air traffic texting control and everyone will fly looking at their phones
Sure, but this controller does a great job. The pilot understood, gave a proper readback, and then lost all confidence in his own memory of the heading he was given, despite still having the right number.
This controller is nuts. I once thought about trying to become an ATC and controllers like this is what reaffirms myself that ill just stick to flying a plane instead of controlling all of them
I am not a pilot, but just curious: How *DO* a pilot get a slot to ask for the heading when all instructions go that fast? My guess: Find a small hole in the communication and ident, then ATC will respond and you have the room to speak.
@@luckyflx The stakes are bit higher in NY TRACON than a first grade classroom. If someone is being impatient its probably something important like a missed heading.
@@meyague If you're not 110% certain of the previous instruction, always call back to confirm. It can mean the difference between life and death. If you think that's being petty then I certainly hope you're not in command of any aircraft!
I had almost the exact same thing one night. I (center controller) was working two sectors with combined freqs. Had two simultaneous calls, one on each freq. I caught the words “declaring an emergency” , but could not tell which freq. it was, so I transmitted “ all aircraft standby, break, aircraft declaring emergency say again”. Only to have it stepped on again. By then I figured out which freq. the emergency was on, so I transmitted “aircraft calling on 128.5 standby, aircraft with emergency on 125.1 go ahead nay to be stepped on a third time. This time I got enough of a call sign from the emergency I could direct my attention to him. Emergency under control I went back to the other Freq. and the guy there upon being inquired if he had an emergency he stated “not really, just wondering if you have a ride report at another altitude. Not really a deviation (as in this case) but certainly a need for some education which was delivered about an hour latter via phone.
Great controller! Super busy freq. pilot did the right thing by asking, but then copped at attitude, no reason or place for that. Let’s work together guys. Leave the attitude at home. And just because the guy got a phone number doesn’t mean he goes to pilot prison. When you make the decision to fly in this airspace, you sign up for these rules. Without controllers like this it would be far worse. Finally, maybe a playback system on our radios would be useful. Tike the back 5 seconds on a TiVo or dvr. I think there are radios that have this. Wish mine did.
A lot of props to the controller but no recognition that it really is hard to break into the comms sequence when the controller is in a 'flow' especially when you're off a satellite airport.
Ex-ATC, current 121 pilot here. I don’t see the deviation. Brasher warning was out of spite. Phone number to talk it out, maybe, but the Brasher was uncalled for, the pilot was responsible by verifying an instruction they were unsure of, though sure he could have contained his frustration and called later if he wanted to follow up.
Pilot deviated from the requirements for radio protocol (interfering with government communications, 47 USC 333). Pilot was blocking the controller out of spite because he then told the controller to stop transmitting.
Dude. If you went to the wrong heading you had just correctly read back to ATC, and it was gonna be an issue, they'd correct you. You're not wrong for asking, but it isn't that important when they would notice if it was incorrect. Just wait your turn.
Dude…this guy is amazing…HOWEVER, no single person should be in a position to manage so much traffic…I wouldn’t even board a plane at certain hours if I knew that this was happening behind the scenes. It is 2024, AI can help do this!!! Currently it is very very dangerous
eh. I would have let that one go, PHL approach is super busy, I'd think a deviation should only be issued for a safety violation, but.. that's just me, I'm just a pilot, not ATC.
Hate to be that guy but I gotta side with the pilot a bit here. In airspace this busy the pilot really should've gotten it the first time, but the controller knows he is getting stepped on. It's faster for the controller to take a 5 seconds break and listen to who is stepping on him then keep pushing on and have to repeat his next several instructions because he keeps getting stepped on. I also don't want to be unsure of my heading in that congested of an airspace, we're instructed to verify if we have any doubt.
That'd have been understandable if it wasn't made clear by the own pilot that he thought he was above everyone else. Instead of keying in he should've been more patient.
@@meyague So he's supposed to what, fly in circles? or fly a straight line and hope he's on the correct heading? As far as I can tell he tried calling at the correct time. ATC, transmit, Pilot replied, then 820 tried calling in after the reply. ATC should have left more silence time after the reply. I know they are busy but to run a safe air space you have to let pilots call in also. This controller hardly left any time for any pilots to call in. I put blame mostly ATC here 820's problem was his attitude after, which tied up the freq longer than required. or maybe blame need to go higher up, to who ever caused the air space to get congested to the point where ATC wasn't able to have time for pilots to call in.
@@meyague You're right. No idea what heading you're supposed to fly, so just fly wherever. Who cares it's a congested airspace. Totally safe ofc! Should in fact be patient and wait till all of the traffic clears out as this is a really low priority obviously. Don't try to be above everyone else, just wait patiently for your turn to talk in a couple of hours and temporarily ignore the flying. It's just rude to think you can delay others just because you want to be safe.
@@dazoedave He's not gonna fly in circles for having to wait a few minutes, planes aren't like cars. Regardless, his attitude was unprofessional hence the pilot deviation warning.
In my opinion , although the airspace is busy , the controller should slow it down a bit , I'm on the pilot's side. Let's say an aircraft has some emergency , but controller keeps speaking with no break , when they would be able to declare mayday. Same thing with a new a new aircraft that gets in the space , it wouldn't be able to introduce himself. Also , if I would be in a cockpit I would find very stressful to try to communicate with my colleague when somebody keeps talking in my ears.
I dunno I'm completely with the pilot on this one. He was clearly frustrated as flying on a uncertain heading in such a busy airspace is super stressful and was a *tiny* bit rude. But giving him a possible pilot deviation is just completely ridiculous and a waste of everyone's time
I can't even imagine what the substance of that phone call would be. "Don't criticize me when I'm working"? I agree, that's a stressful situation. And, he might not have gotten a response anytime soon if not for the longer transmission.
Ordering a controller to stop stepping on you when they aren't doing so for any other reason but to communicate to other planes in busy airspace is more than just a tiny bit rude. It's main character mentality.
Upset didn't do anything wrong. It's important to know your heading. Asking for it wasn't bad. Blocking people was for sure. But is that really a deviation?
I get it from both viewpoints, and the phone call was probably a non-event. Thankfully most of the newer avionics have a replay button to hear the last few transmissions. I've used it when the frequency was too busy to ask for clarification..
Agree to disagree. You're in a professional environment and other callsigns/aircraft need things, too. You NEVER chide the obviously very busy departure controller who had many aircraft to get on their way. If there's an emergency, you can butt in but patience remains a virtue.
@@LjL-Videos No deviation, but he h eaded north and right over Newark - but he CAN'T observe basic radio discipline. Waiting for the soonest possible gap or even PAYING ATTENTION beforehand was the crew's play, that didn't happen. This isn't on the controller, it's on Upjet 820 ENTIRELY. End of
@@dukeofrodtown1705 "Agree to disagree" indeed then. A pilot has every right in the world to ask for clarification, and there was no pilot deviation here, he just got a little frustrated with the calls, which is not a deviation.
I think both parties did not intended any ill will. ATC clearly did not understand that he was stepping on or being stepped on by upjet and was focused on keeping things flowing and safe. Pilot seems to have gotten a little frustrated but did return to say thank you after he received his confirmation of heading. I am not sure how this could be pilot deviation, but that is what the phone call is for, to work out the details at a later date instead of on the radio. I wonder if there is a policy that ATC has to follow when small altercations like this happen? The last thing needed at a busy airport is ATC getting into an argument with someone over the air. I think pilot and ATC handled it good with slight fault to pilot for getting a little flustered. It does seem like they could improve radio issues like this with a secondary comm system.
I am genuinely curious why this controller was in a position to issue all those headings and altitudes? Aren't procedures designed to avoid such situations - just issue "climb via SID" and later freq change? Are the procedures present but weren't used for some reason or are the procedures insufficient? I mean, what would happen in case of a serious emergency when pilots would have issues with responding for example?
The problem is the procedures give you an initial climb from the runway, but then tells you to expect radar vectors to the assigned fix, so "climb via SID" wouldn't help here since the "expect radar vectors", by definition, has the controller giving vectors to the first fix.
The pilot needs to read the damn room 🤣😭 just take the number sort it out later Im gonna reference this video to instrument students, when they can keep up with this they'll easily pass a checkride
Nothing -- at least immediately. You don't HAVE to call and at the same time for most situations the controller doesn't HAVE to file paperwork with the FSDO. Most times they just want to talk about what happened off the air and it's done. If you don't call they might consider escalating.
This insanity on federal airwaves needs to stop. Grown professional men unnecessarily escalating social media style arguments over the frequencies, all to serve their tough guy personaes. The aviation business is full of them. Both the pilot and controller were out of line here. However, the controller always has the power to “give a phone number” to the pilot. The pilot has no such power. This automatically gives the controller the upper hand. The controller can even give a “possible pilot deviation, call this number” if he was emotionally scarred by something that was said on the radio. Bullshit. To my pilot and controller friends - If one off color remark is made on the radio (most likely due to momentary stress), let the fucking thing go!! Ignore it and keep doing your job. Don’t be a shithead and escalate it into a pissing contest. Your penis size is irrelevant to keeping aircraft separated. *Deescalate*
At first the UpJet pilot was way too chatty. "Departure, Upjet 820 is with you on the departure climbing 1800 for 2000", that and his readback is in a slow drawl with unneeded additional phrases. I agree he was right to call for verification, but then he caught the attitude with ATC over a very common occurrence in busy airspace. Once he's told to be ready to copy, his comms get very precise and efficient. Then he has to wait while ATC handles multiple flights before he gets his number. ATC was really letting this guy know just how busy he is. ATC was on it! Other pilots on RUclips have talked about how important efficient and precise communication is in very busy airspace. I think this interaction is a great example of why that's crucial. I'm hoping they'd both cooled off before the phone call and they had a productive talk.
I don’t understand the possible pilot deviation in the US anymore. It looks like you can get it for anythjng at this point. Not blaming the controller but I genuinely don’t understand
You have to really f up to get called rude by people from NJ. I lived there and picked up some influence from that state so I know what I’m talking about. Also, you are seeing what we consider rude: causing a holdup in line. Take care of your business and move your ass afterwards, and don’t do other stuff that slows things down either. There are other people waiting and not respecting their time is rude.
Nor did the Tower. When you press the PTT button to talk, you instantly don't know who else is pressing it too. His mood to ATC is what was really out of place.
It's my understanding that situations like this, controllers would prefer to "talk it out" over the phone so it doesn't turn into a circus over open comms.
very busy frequency, he should simply behave professionally and not bitch about being stepped on. (unnecessary bitching is wasting MORE time on a very congested frequency) - stepping on does happen, it is unintentional and he should know better. (unless he's a newbie with an attitude)
@VASAviation thank you for the response! okay, i get it. I listened to the video again more carefully. But on the other hand, for the airplane, it is better safe than sorry (to confirm the heading before he ends up in somebody else's way or smth).. But they all stayed professional in the end
I'm with the pilot on this one. I don't care how many aircraft you are working, you have to pause between transmissions in case someone else is trying to get in. This controller was coming in instantly after each read back was complete. You can't do that. What if someone had been trying to get in with an emergency? I have no idea what rule the controller thinks the pilot deviated from. Calling out a controller in a brief and polite way when they are doing a bad job is not a deviation.
Sir, are you Upjet 820 or Upset 820?
Nice pun! Wow, what an attitude!
ATC: What's Upjet?
Jet: Not much how are you?
Nice pun VAS! Unbelievably pathetic behaviour from him. Consequences need to be given for situations like this, as it pays to WAIT for dead air or consult the charts in front of you!
And yet... what was the deviation?! They needed to confirm the heading, they clearly were annoyed at all the blocks, but they didn't insult or do anything too radio-uncouth, and just as clearly they couldn't follow the heading if they didn't know it. They were annoyed and that may have been unwarranted, but I can't possibly see how they deviated.
he is both, actually.
Okay I haven’t watched this video but can we lay off the “DREADED PHONE NUMBER” bit? I’ve been a controller with the FAA for over 16 years, and asking pilots to call is not a big deal. When I answer these phones calls it’s usually a genial “hey, here’s what went wrong and here’s how you can help us out in the future. Any questions? Have a nice day and stay safe.”
Even when referred to FSDO, it is very unlikely that a pilot deviation will result in adverse action against the pilot. It is possible, but happens in very few actual cases.
I’ve seen these meme about calling ATC grow over the past couple of years, and I honestly think it’s detrimental to aviation safety. It contributes to us pilots v. Controllers mindset which is very unhelpful.
Fly safe, follow the rules and ATC instructions, and if you’re asked to call the facility after your flight don’t think it will necessarily involve immediate revocation of your certificate.
It's just a bit of fun. A RUclips channel isn't going to harm the aviation industry lol
Well said. Thanks for the input and insights. I would agree with you.
It's the famous dreaded phone number and will ever be when accompanied by "possible pilot deviation". Of course it's not that bad. Just talk about it, exchange POVs and look for safety. That's what it's all about
@@mememaster123Yeah, youtube channels can alter election results and disrupt our democratic process in violent ways. But there’s no way it can affect pilots. 🙄
I think the controller makes a valid point.
That's one way to look at it... the other way to look at it is, it's a reminder to keep yourself in line and to do the best job you can do. No, most calls are not actions taken against the pilot, but it COULD be, and that's enough for many pilots.
5:00
Jet 820> " what was the possible deviation?"
ATC> "you got did you got the phone number sir?
Jet 820> "yeah"
ATC> *moves on to directing more traffic*
No BS taken from ATC. "Call that number and they'll tell you. I've got no time to explain it to you right now"
Dude had no time for an explanation, sounds like he barely has time for a sip of coffee between calls, poor guy. Wow, is that ever a busy airspace... Nice to hear that most people (and especially that ATC) take care to enunciate properly. No time wasted over misunderstandings and say-agains.
Because there wasn't a pilot deviation. Just a butthurt controller trying to be dominant.
@@Theonedjneono, this guy was a safety hazard on Execjet. He was blocking the radio and no one could comm. If the comms can’t go out quick it could cause a collision (or increase risk in Swiss cheese model).
@@paulstejskal UpJet 820 was the aircraft blocking freq asking for heading - not the ExecJet pilot(s)
The audacity to tell a controller to stop stepping on you. Oh my.
No audacity there at ALL. Just frustration. Cause IF he´d had the heading incorrect, the dreaded telephone call could have been about something worse, like an airspace violation or the like. If you have never been in that situation, stfu. If you have been - as I have multiple times - then you should know better.
@@getyoursupervisor8519 Wrong.
You are so wrong and obviously have no idea what radio etiquette is in flying. The pilot was completely justified in his anger
@@hmbpnzyou don’t fly and it’s easy to tell. Sit down
@@smudent2010 What the fuck are you yapping about? You sit down, son.
the most depressed, "yeah go ahead...."
That fo was so over his captains nonsense
You can hear this ATC has a rhythm. I think the pilot maybe finally figured that out. You gotta jump in or you’re stepping on him. None of this is easy, I’m thinking. Especially in an air space like that. I’ve heard less busy ATC word vomiting so fast half the pilots have to make them repeat it. This guy is measured and clear. My vote is - well done!
Holyyy moly this controller is a rockstar. Clear. Concise. Full airspace control.
Decades ago (1986ish), I considered applying for an ATC job. Instead, I went into public safety dispatching. I highly doubt I could have handled ATC as well as this guy just did!
Just imagine how he talks to his wife after a shift like this. 😂
@@rudiklein Hello................dear...............how..............was.............your............day
This controller talks faster than most women in rock.
No, the controller is a dumbass and the crew did nothing wrong. It is their JOB to confirm a heading if there is any doubt.
WOW....this controller has definitely had his Wheaties today!!
No, he’s a dumbass. The crew did nothing wrong. It is their JOB to confirm an assigned heading if there is any doubt.
Jerk. Ask yourself if you want this congestion over your home without a pilot wanting to be safe.
This is pushing Tin !!! Stop bitching and do what your told and move ON !
@@chrisharkins6929 Ok you pull the tin out of your famiilies' asses after the crash, macho-man. Try getting your mind out of the tower and up into the levels. They need to change the "C" in ATC to a female body part, the way some of them treat pilots, who they SERVE.
@@chrisharkins6929 "You're"...not "your"...Aluminum, not Tin.
Holy crap, that controller is amazing, to speak that quickly, and yet annunciate the most important parts so well, THAT is what a crazy busy controller should sound like.
pretty sure most of blank parts where there’s no transmission is editted out so it sounds like the atc is talking constantly
@@rr-zm3ctmaybe in some videos but absolutely not in this one. This isnt even busy as they get.
@@rr-zm3ct northeast US, London, & parts of Asia are just crazy like this at peak times
Not amazing at all. To give a pilot a deviation for asking for a heading confirmation is unhinged and the FAA will drop that immediately.
@@Haarschmuckfachgeschafttadpole hehe, quite a lack of understanding there. The controller needed to get the pilot to stop complaining and clog up the airwaves. Giving a number is the fastest way to kick someone in the butt a little and quiet them down. The phone conversation was probably: let us not do that again, ok? It was the right call
Pilot: "You."
Narrator: "It was at this moment, the pilot knew he made a mistake."
What mistake was that?
@@Theonedjneo , he repeated back the assigned heading then copped an attitude and kept stepping on radio traffic. When you repeat it back, you acknowledged the instruction.
If you get confused after that don't get pissy with ATC because you fucked up?
@@YuriyDel so the possible pilot deviation was due to not following ATC heading when pilot read it back correctly and stayed on his original heading?
Oh, I get it, we are gonna start being reprimanded because someone wants to make sure everyone is safe and double-check, got it.
@@griffisjmthat's not what happened at all if the pilot was paying attention and didn't get pissy about it he wouldn't have had any consequences
When a frequency is so congested that there are no momentary quiet periods, then there is an issue with that sector that needs solving.
If the Upjet was trying to declare a MAYDAY or PAN instead, no one would be angry with him. Yes he got annoyed that he was constantly stepped on. Yes he should have got the heading first time, however, if they don't both confirm in the cockpit then they need to ask again.
Of course, but you don't chide the obviously very busy departure controller who had many aircraft to get on their way.
Better to be safe than sorry. I don't think Upjet did anything wrong, maybe his attitude was a bit off but he needed to ask about the heading if he wasn't sure.
Yeah the only thing the Upjet did wrong was snap at ATC, who had done nothing wrong.
@@DerbeQbut his readback was the correct heading. So stick with that. This was a typical case of the captain thinking the FO was wrong.
The issue with this sector supposedly *was* solved by switching from New York to Philadelphia TRACON, which happened just a couple of weeks ago. This was the solution.
The root cause of the problem is the outdated radio system used in Aviation.
It basically is CSMA without CD (Carrier-Sense Multiple Access without Collision Detection).
That means: everyone who wants to transmit first checks if the channel is free, then keys their transmitter, and does not know if someone else does the same thing.
In a purely uncoordinated message distribution that achieves a channel efficiency of only 18.4%.
In practice in Aviation it is a little better, because ATC functions as a central coordinator that sends messages to pilots, and pilots have to answer. Other pilots know not to try to transmit before they heard that pilot send their answer. So the message exchange is not purely uncoordinated.
However, when a pilot wants to ask ATC something, it is uncoordinated and the efficiency is low. When the channel is fully loaded, communication collapses (a well known problem in CSMA).
All other environments where mobile radio is used have upgraded to more modern systems, where the transmissions are coordinated by a more intelligent protocol.
It is about time that Aviation does the same. Or, of course, we can wait until major accidents happen again and again.
Sometimes comms collisions are necessary, to avoid collisions of the Screaming and Fire sort.
If you are calling "mayday mayday mayday" you don't need the computer deciding someone else keyed up 50ms before you and blocking you.
@@Elkadetodd but you get blocked anyway in the *current* system...
@@LjL-Videos It's blocked because the two signals make a heterodyne when combined...but you can still hear each transmission. An urgent MAYDAY might still be heard, although it doesn't inspire confidence and hopefully there will be more foolproof methods in the future.
agree, it's really wasteful to employ so many people to read a number off of a computer, to another guy over a shared radio frequency, so that he can copy it into his flight computer. 99% of the time, air traffic control could send computer instructions directly to the autopilot using an efficient waveform and it would all work fine (of course, under human supervision)
the problem is that lots of government employees need jobs and nobody wants to change anything because they will be blamed for the next accident
but yeah to your point anyone who knows anything about communications system theory will think that this method of controlling aircraft is wasteful and crazy
Can you imagine the chaos that would occur if they changed radio systems? Don't forget this is worldwide, and covers everything from huge commerical airliners to tiny little ultralights. Some drone operations also use radios to stay in communication with manned aircraft... That's hundreds of millions of radios that would need to be replaced/upgraded.
Of course you could define the standard today, then have multimode radios that support both standards, and make the official changeover in about 10 years... But sometimes it's simpler to just stick with simple analogue.
wants heading
gets heading
fails to read back heading
I heard that as well.
Anyone who flies N90 (this sector) knows this is just another day - they are always busy, and you have to be on your game. In the off chance you’re above your head, there’s nothing wrong with clarifying, in fact it’s imperative if you’re not sure, and ATC will accommodate. If you’re not used to rapid fire- it’s usually rapid fire (0.5s delay between instruction / response), then after 3-4 a 2s pause for a few checking, rinse / repeat.
But… when you create chaos on the frequency with extra comments, then doubling down with wanting to engage in dialogue- when you clearly hear what’s happening. That’s a special kind of tone deaf…
Am a pilot, based in this airspace, been yelled at plenty by ATC for good reasons and bad- this just isn’t on ATC. Guarantee you 100% of pilots on that frequency that morning were rolling their, eyes, laughing, or annoyed the upjet was blocking their check ins.
“ with the flash!” God help us!😂
Totes cringe
Number just for that
@@CaptCap25 Agree. Pilots ought to not use colloquialisms on the frequency, ever.
@@JustSayN2O If you're the kind of pilot that says things like "with the flash" you're likely to be deficient in other ways. Like this pilot in the video that couldn't remember his assigned heading.
@@brameldm Agree. Just respond with the word "ident". "On the box" is another childish colloquialism I occasionally hear when pilots read back an initial clearance, referring to: 'transponder [code]'.
ATC guy was on the ball...well done ✔️
"You have to stop blocking me!". And that, is where he messed up lol
omae wa mou shindeiru
... 2:23 ...
NANI‽
That's a pilot deviation?
@@Theonedjneo Absolutely not. This controller is an idiot for giving them a number.
@@Theonedjneo Aviation ppl got a lot of ego. And most of them got bullied in high school.
@RetreadPhoto Yeah… no. Not a thing. Like, at all…
The airspace here isn’t equipped. It’s bs that nobody can get a word in.
It isn’t that they’re not equipped. It’s that they’re not staffed-because the FAA has completely fucked away the ATC application, training, and assignment process. I guarantee in the next few years it will be cited in a mishap report as a contributory, if not causal, organizational-level failure.
@@UpAndReady what’s the difference in what I said and what you’re saying?
One is an "equipped" problem, the other isn't. It's not a problem with equipment or what is equipped. It's a problem of policy
That's insane workload on the controller
The controller was super busy and doing an incredible job. I'm not sure how possible pilot deviation came into it. Though, I can see that the controller definitely didn't have time to be distracted by such attitude.
This isn't a CTAF. You don't chastise EWR departure for "blocking" you. It's HIS frequency.
@@z33511 I agree. I just don't see how it's a pilot deviation.
@@andysPARK Call it a "Controller Ego Violation" then...
Retired PILOT here. That was very busy however, two times in my flying career heard it Twice as busy as this! That was when the controller never let go of the mike button! All aircraft on freq had to do what he said without replying!! You had to listen for your call sign VERY intently! Please reply if any of you have been in this situation. Btw. Both times was in the north east.
He answered that attitude with weaponized controller authority. Wow
Controller is garbage. Imagine giving someone a deviation for asking for confirmation on a heading. Wow.
@@Haarschmuckfachgeschafttadpole It was the attitude
Is upjet rude? Yes. Is it a pilot deviation? No.
More of a comms deviation...
Yeah, seems to be glossed over here, but absolutely no reason for a deviation. Petty.
Complaining that a very busy controller is stepping on you is wild
That controller is seriously impressive on several levels.
Man that frequency was so busy...
Upjet 820 started badly by being very slow and casual on the radio, wasting time. Every other pilot used concise clipped professional language just like the controller. The goal in a situation like this is to maximize information with minimum transmit time. That means no pauses, no um’s, no extra information the controller already has, no “story telling”. His first call was “Departure, Upjet 820 is with you on the departure climbing 1800 for 2000”. The concise first call would be “Departure, Upjet 820 1800 climbing 2000”. Second transmission was as bad as the first: “Alright, climb and maintain 4000, we’re with the flash, Upjet 820”. The better response would be “Ident, Climb 4000, Upjet 820”. Short. Sweet. I’m sure the controller was already annoyed. I did notice the second pilot in Upjet 820 was better, probably realized they were already screwed.
nil I don't think that has anything to do with it. If he had just waited and didn't tell the controller to stop stepping on him his phraseology would have went unnoticed.
Whew! That’s a busy sector 😮 That controller has skills 👌🏻
Need to work on your ATC reback/hearback skills? This is the video for that. Lol holy smokes that controller was busy.
I think ATC was just trying to convince the guy to call. I don’t think he was looking to get him in trouble. It probably is just “hey pilot, you realize that you blocked the comms? What helps is when I pause, wait 2 seconds then start talking. Here’s how it helps me when you…”.
Usually controllers don't WANT to violate a pilot. If you get snarky with a controller though, it rarely stacks the odds in your favor! 🤣
Too much one way power- just how long and how many attempts should this pilot have to make to verify their clearance? There are small techniques he should've used- You really want him flying in a direction he's not sure of when it's that busy?
@@scottmitchell3761 No, but the attitude is unnecessary. It's clearly busy airspace, and having an attitude uses up more valuable time on frequency. Getting a number to call doesn't mean automatic license suspension. It means that a busy frequency isn't the place or time to have a disagreement. There's many legitimate reasons not to follow a controller's directions. They'll sort it out off-frequency when other people's lives don't depend on them.
probally called and controller said i cant see ya pressin that mic and i have other planes i need to talk to etc no doubt this died in the approach office but still good job on that controller for putting that pilot back in line
I really hope that CPDLC getting more widespread adoption will help resolve these congested frequencies and requests for confirmation. Just imagine the controller sending an SMS instruction to the pilot monitoring, pilot accepts the instruction, automatically loading the instruction into the Flight Management System correctly and confirming acceptance back to the controller. So much easier and less error prone!
CPDLC is a godsend, especially for frequencies and multiple clearances (speed+FL+waypoint).
CPDLC is used quite a lot but it has some delay so you cannot using during departure and arrival parts of flights so it wouldnt really help in this situation
Does CPDLC take human review by ATC completely out of the loop? How secure is it? Seems like it would be an obvious target for bad actors wanting to wreak havoc.
@@RickOSidhe VDL2 (and hence CPDLC) messages are neither encrypted nor signed, to my knowledge. It would theoretically be possible to inject your own messages... But the ground station would still receive the confirmation message (it'd probably throw it away?) and the Mode S DAPs would show the change of the selected FL on the MCP/FMS. CPDLC instructions still need to be executed by the pilot, so employing some caution and common sense is still necessary, as it has always been.
@@RickOSidhe No it does not take human review out of the loop - in fact this is actually one of the reasons it's not used in cases like this. In practice it is exactly like being on the phone with someone and them telling you to hang on a second so they can text you something. It takes longer than if they just told you. They have you on the phone anyway. What it does allow is for multiple instructions to get sent out at the same time. But it's still a controller sitting there doing it, then the pilots both have to look at it and make sure it makes sense, then press the "WILCO" button, then the "SEND" button, then wait for that to be done, then press the "CLEAR" button. Overall it takes a lot more time than just getting an instruction over the radio.
Just for a clarification the email that introduces the video indicates an Exec Jet (EJA) being the problem. WUP820 ''Upjet'' is operated by Wheels Up. Understandibly it gets confusing around EWR with ExecJet, FlexJet, FlexFlight, NetJets, UpJet, X-O-Jet, Cronos, GamJet, Goodspeed, VistaJet, JetCard they all look alike haha!
Is it not standard radio training everywhere to be as brief as possible, especially when the radio traffic is like this? Rather than taking several seconds to say "For upjet 820, just to confirm it was 120 on the heading?", they could have simply said "Departure, Upjet 820". It's brief, easier to fit in between traffic, less likely to block traffic, and departure is aware they need to speak to you when able at which point Upjet 820 would have the opportunity to speak the query.
Also the pilot trying to discuss what was the possible deviation, on a frequency they know is under heavy traffic, is further exacerbating the situation. Regardless of if the pilots were in the right or wrong prior to this, don't keep tying up the frequency.
Big nothing burger. Controller just wants to talk to him. No deviation, regardless of what he said. Let's just stop trying to "roast" pilots on the Internet. Not helpful to anyone.
"Sent from my iPhone" ... that mail signature needs a separate joke roast on its own ;)
This one's kind of cool if you turn the sound down to about 20% on it, and play The Blue Danube Waltz in another tab. Maybe The Waltz of the Flowers from Tchaikovsky’s The Nutcracker, but it's shorter.
I was operating PTR2138 (“dashport 2138” -checks in on the radio at 2:53) and the FO and I listened to this entire upjet interaction happen before he could get a radio call in. This frequency is always incredibly congested but I was curious if this particular interaction was going to end up on VASAviation hahaha
Nobody can hide from VASAviation, remember
The EWR frequencies in this area have been jammed like this since the switch to Philadelphia. I flew overhead VFR at 7,500 the other day -- they wouldn't take my handoff from Allentown, which is surprising since I'm overflying the bravo, and talking to me benefits them. Pretty sure an A320 got an RA on me. I tried to raise them VFR but, like this guy, couldn't get a word on the frequency. The N90 frequencies were more accommodating after crossing the Hudson.
That has always been the case. East of the Hudson, easy. West of the Hudson, challenging.
Don't think anyone is rude or arrogant here. Work load is the culprit. Good god , ATC guy is like a robot. We are all at the mercy of his concentration and focus 😮
He was an idiot for trying to give a pilot deviation for this.
The reason why ATC combines back to back transmissions repeatedly is to alleviate pilots ability to get a transmission in. Its is how we control the frequency. We have a lot of planes that need instruction and not a lot of time to answer questions. Preferably, when we give a pilot an instruction, listen to confirm understanding of the instruction, and expect a pilot to execute the instruction. Pilots, in this situation, wait for the controller to pause a few seconds. By doing this, the controller is giving pilots an opportunity to ask questions or check on. That is our method of controlling the frequency.
I'm sorry but this seems like a wrong mindset towards ATC/Aircraft communication.
Yes you are the Controller and you have to control. But any misunerstanding over the air will only affect the guys up there, and not you.
That is why eliminating the means for the pilots to ask/interrupt the frequency is inherently a point of failure in the system.
The only solution is to break up frequencies and sectors, but that requires manpower. Which we all know is the root of the problem these days.
What’s a pilot to do if the heading is misunderstood? Keep flying blindly into possible traffic, weather, airspace, etc?
Can you give me the timestamp where the controller paused for a few seconds?
We can't always tell when you pause for a few seconds. Especially when you're handling multiple channels and we can't hear the other traffic on the other frequency, so we have no idea whether you're pausing or if someone is responding to you.
This pilot tried five times to catch a pause, and the sixth time made a longer transmission which was noticed.
And, sometimes ATC needs to answer questions.
Seems like a workload problem.
@@semaexmisunderstandings effect us too. It’s not that we don’t want pilots to get clarification, I encourage that. In this case, the controller assigned the heading, the pilot read the heading back correctly, and flew the assigned heading. Other things became priority for that controller. We have to mange priority transmissions in the way I explained earlier. If we leave space after every transmission for a possible questions, we would not be instructing in a timely manner.
Wow what a professional!
I wonder when these phone calls actually happen, right after landing when the controller is still on duty? will the pilot talk to some other person who gets briefed in the meantime about the issue by the controller who gave the pilot the phone number?
So what happens when they call the number, anyway? The tower yells at them? Is it like a point on ur license or something? What if they don't call?
I’m glad you didn’t lose your radar at EWR this time.
Go Verizon!
Bold move telling tower to stop stepping on you..
whats with all the bots calling for radio coms to be ended ? next atc will be renamed air traffic texting control and everyone will fly looking at their phones
More controllers need to be taught that “slow is fast”. Radios make things a lot worse than it sounds here.
Sure, but this controller does a great job. The pilot understood, gave a proper readback, and then lost all confidence in his own memory of the heading he was given, despite still having the right number.
yeah FAA should listen to an armchair expert like you
This controller is nuts. I once thought about trying to become an ATC and controllers like this is what reaffirms myself that ill just stick to flying a plane instead of controlling all of them
Never seen a pilot complain about ATC blocking comms on frequency. Sheesh.
I am not a pilot, but just curious: How *DO* a pilot get a slot to ask for the heading when all instructions go that fast?
My guess: Find a small hole in the communication and ident, then ATC will respond and you have the room to speak.
Upjet pilot was a bit snarky. In such a very busy airspace, you can expect to be blocked. No need to be snarky about it.
I agree, what was the deviation? Guy was just trying to confirm the heading.
To the principal's office.
it did remind me of the impatient communication of some the kids I teach. The thing is... they are not flying airplanes in first grade.
@@luckyflx Excuse me? I flew plenty of paper airplanes in first grade.
@@luckyflx The stakes are bit higher in NY TRACON than a first grade classroom. If someone is being impatient its probably something important like a missed heading.
@@BIOHAZARDXXXXHe didn't miss it, he just wanted confirmation. He was being petty.
@@meyague If you're not 110% certain of the previous instruction, always call back to confirm. It can mean the difference between life and death. If you think that's being petty then I certainly hope you're not in command of any aircraft!
KEWR was doing some serious expedited departures. Nice job!
Genuine question, what was considered the pilot deviation here?
I had almost the exact same thing one night. I (center controller) was working two sectors with combined freqs. Had two simultaneous calls, one on each freq. I caught the words “declaring an emergency” , but could not tell which freq. it was, so I transmitted “ all aircraft standby, break, aircraft declaring emergency say again”. Only to have it stepped on again. By then I figured out which freq. the emergency was on, so I transmitted “aircraft calling on 128.5 standby, aircraft with emergency on 125.1 go ahead nay to be stepped on a third time. This time I got enough of a call sign from the emergency I could direct my attention to him. Emergency under control I went back to the other Freq. and the guy there upon being inquired if he had an emergency he stated “not really, just wondering if you have a ride report at another altitude. Not really a deviation (as in this case) but certainly a need for some education which was delivered about an hour latter via phone.
Great controller! Super busy freq. pilot did the right thing by asking, but then copped at attitude, no reason or place for that. Let’s work together guys. Leave the attitude at home. And just because the guy got a phone number doesn’t mean he goes to pilot prison. When you make the decision to fly in this airspace, you sign up for these rules. Without controllers like this it would be far worse. Finally, maybe a playback system on our radios would be useful. Tike the back 5 seconds on a TiVo or dvr. I think there are radios that have this. Wish mine did.
Deviation for what? Asking to confirm an instruction? Unprofessional at a minimum. Clown
What was the deviation? Dude was guessing an assigned heading and needed confirmation. Flying on a guessed heading can be very dangerous..
The controller was a super busy man and very professional.
He was an idiot. No pilot deviation happened here.
@@Kaktus965Found the upjet pilot
@@ismaelderas Guess again there, cheeky little fellow…
Upset Jet 820 Tesla driver!! Probably lives in Bellevue WA!
A lot of props to the controller but no recognition that it really is hard to break into the comms sequence when the controller is in a 'flow' especially when you're off a satellite airport.
Just using proper SIDs would reduce the necessary communication quite a bit.
This controller is rocking and rolling.🎉😂
The standard of the radio calls all around is just so poor in the US. Good controller tho!
Ex-ATC, current 121 pilot here. I don’t see the deviation. Brasher warning was out of spite. Phone number to talk it out, maybe, but the Brasher was uncalled for, the pilot was responsible by verifying an instruction they were unsure of, though sure he could have contained his frustration and called later if he wanted to follow up.
His deviation was with a different controller I think. He was given a number to Philly approach, not NY approach.
It's about the way he went about it, and the unprofessional tone he gave ATC after being warned.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 N90 is now controlled out of Philly, not NY.
@@haamster Just the EWR area is at Philly, N90 is still in New York.
Pilot deviated from the requirements for radio protocol (interfering with government communications, 47 USC 333). Pilot was blocking the controller out of spite because he then told the controller to stop transmitting.
upjet pilot's attitude is wrong, but technically (ICAO) wayfinding calls have priority over any message that isn't panpan/mayday
Dude. If you went to the wrong heading you had just correctly read back to ATC, and it was gonna be an issue, they'd correct you. You're not wrong for asking, but it isn't that important when they would notice if it was incorrect. Just wait your turn.
Dude…this guy is amazing…HOWEVER, no single person should be in a position to manage so much traffic…I wouldn’t even board a plane at certain hours if I knew that this was happening behind the scenes. It is 2024, AI can help do this!!!
Currently it is very very dangerous
eh. I would have let that one go, PHL approach is super busy, I'd think a deviation should only be issued for a safety violation, but.. that's just me, I'm just a pilot, not ATC.
Hate to be that guy but I gotta side with the pilot a bit here. In airspace this busy the pilot really should've gotten it the first time, but the controller knows he is getting stepped on. It's faster for the controller to take a 5 seconds break and listen to who is stepping on him then keep pushing on and have to repeat his next several instructions because he keeps getting stepped on. I also don't want to be unsure of my heading in that congested of an airspace, we're instructed to verify if we have any doubt.
That'd have been understandable if it wasn't made clear by the own pilot that he thought he was above everyone else. Instead of keying in he should've been more patient.
@@meyague So he's supposed to what, fly in circles? or fly a straight line and hope he's on the correct heading? As far as I can tell he tried calling at the correct time. ATC, transmit, Pilot replied, then 820 tried calling in after the reply. ATC should have left more silence time after the reply. I know they are busy but to run a safe air space you have to let pilots call in also. This controller hardly left any time for any pilots to call in. I put blame mostly ATC here 820's problem was his attitude after, which tied up the freq longer than required. or maybe blame need to go higher up, to who ever caused the air space to get congested to the point where ATC wasn't able to have time for pilots to call in.
@@meyague You're right. No idea what heading you're supposed to fly, so just fly wherever. Who cares it's a congested airspace. Totally safe ofc! Should in fact be patient and wait till all of the traffic clears out as this is a really low priority obviously. Don't try to be above everyone else, just wait patiently for your turn to talk in a couple of hours and temporarily ignore the flying. It's just rude to think you can delay others just because you want to be safe.
@@dazoedaveJeez, you are delusional. I hope you don’t work in aviation.
@@dazoedave He's not gonna fly in circles for having to wait a few minutes, planes aren't like cars. Regardless, his attitude was unprofessional hence the pilot deviation warning.
For some reason i think he thought the voice that was constantly talking wasn't the controller.
In my opinion , although the airspace is busy , the controller should slow it down a bit , I'm on the pilot's side. Let's say an aircraft has some emergency , but controller keeps speaking with no break , when they would be able to declare mayday. Same thing with a new a new aircraft that gets in the space , it wouldn't be able to introduce himself. Also , if I would be in a cockpit I would find very stressful to try to communicate with my colleague when somebody keeps talking in my ears.
If an aircraft has an emergency, they can set the transponder to the emergency code, and the controller would see it.
I dunno I'm completely with the pilot on this one. He was clearly frustrated as flying on a uncertain heading in such a busy airspace is super stressful and was a *tiny* bit rude. But giving him a possible pilot deviation is just completely ridiculous and a waste of everyone's time
I can't even imagine what the substance of that phone call would be. "Don't criticize me when I'm working"? I agree, that's a stressful situation. And, he might not have gotten a response anytime soon if not for the longer transmission.
Ordering a controller to stop stepping on you when they aren't doing so for any other reason but to communicate to other planes in busy airspace is more than just a tiny bit rude. It's main character mentality.
Wasn't he told to fly heading 120? 1:08
@@kylethomas7467Exactly!
What would have been funny is if Upjet 820 continued to step on other comms at least three times just to say he was ready to copy that number now.
The phone number is like the dreaded yellow/red card in football.
Upset didn't do anything wrong. It's important to know your heading. Asking for it wasn't bad. Blocking people was for sure. But is that really a deviation?
If he wasn't sure why did he read it back already
I get it from both viewpoints, and the phone call was probably a non-event. Thankfully most of the newer avionics have a replay button to hear the last few transmissions. I've used it when the frequency was too busy to ask for clarification..
oh that's a smart upgrade/feature, didn't know that existed
It's a non event. Zero consequences.
Agree to disagree. You're in a professional environment and other callsigns/aircraft need things, too. You NEVER chide the obviously very busy departure controller who had many aircraft to get on their way. If there's an emergency, you can butt in but patience remains a virtue.
@@dukeofrodtown1705 and yet, what exactly is the pilot deviation?
@@LjL-Videos No deviation, but he h eaded north and right over Newark - but he CAN'T observe basic radio discipline. Waiting for the soonest possible gap or even PAYING ATTENTION beforehand was the crew's play, that didn't happen. This isn't on the controller, it's on Upjet 820 ENTIRELY. End of
It is a non event but it shows that the FO has the memory of a gnat
@@dukeofrodtown1705 "Agree to disagree" indeed then. A pilot has every right in the world to ask for clarification, and there was no pilot deviation here, he just got a little frustrated with the calls, which is not a deviation.
I think both parties did not intended any ill will. ATC clearly did not understand that he was stepping on or being stepped on by upjet and was focused on keeping things flowing and safe. Pilot seems to have gotten a little frustrated but did return to say thank you after he received his confirmation of heading. I am not sure how this could be pilot deviation, but that is what the phone call is for, to work out the details at a later date instead of on the radio. I wonder if there is a policy that ATC has to follow when small altercations like this happen? The last thing needed at a busy airport is ATC getting into an argument with someone over the air. I think pilot and ATC handled it good with slight fault to pilot for getting a little flustered. It does seem like they could improve radio issues like this with a secondary comm system.
Exactly this is a huge nothingburger.
I am genuinely curious why this controller was in a position to issue all those headings and altitudes? Aren't procedures designed to avoid such situations - just issue "climb via SID" and later freq change? Are the procedures present but weren't used for some reason or are the procedures insufficient?
I mean, what would happen in case of a serious emergency when pilots would have issues with responding for example?
The problem is the procedures give you an initial climb from the runway, but then tells you to expect radar vectors to the assigned fix, so "climb via SID" wouldn't help here since the "expect radar vectors", by definition, has the controller giving vectors to the first fix.
And still no software that can replace ATC....
The pilot needs to read the damn room 🤣😭 just take the number sort it out later
Im gonna reference this video to instrument students, when they can keep up with this they'll easily pass a checkride
What happens when they give you a number to call and you just blow it off ?
Nothing -- at least immediately. You don't HAVE to call and at the same time for most situations the controller doesn't HAVE to file paperwork with the FSDO. Most times they just want to talk about what happened off the air and it's done. If you don't call they might consider escalating.
No fault of either. The controller is overloaded. The UpJet was trying to contact the controller. Very little space to do so. UNSAFE.
The UpJet pilot has abysmal radio phraseology skills. I fly in that sector all the time, that's the normal pace of comms.
This insanity on federal airwaves needs to stop. Grown professional men unnecessarily escalating social media style arguments over the frequencies, all to serve their tough guy personaes. The aviation business is full of them.
Both the pilot and controller were out of line here. However, the controller always has the power to “give a phone number” to the pilot. The pilot has no such power. This automatically gives the controller the upper hand. The controller can even give a “possible pilot deviation, call this number” if he was emotionally scarred by something that was said on the radio. Bullshit.
To my pilot and controller friends -
If one off color remark is made on the radio (most likely due to momentary stress), let the fucking thing go!! Ignore it and keep doing your job. Don’t be a shithead and escalate it into a pissing contest. Your penis size is irrelevant to keeping aircraft separated. *Deescalate*
Watch your mood!
Give him a heading of the bottom of the ocean
Bad day at Delta…oh I mean Upjet?
At first the UpJet pilot was way too chatty. "Departure, Upjet 820 is with you on the departure climbing 1800 for 2000", that and his readback is in a slow drawl with unneeded additional phrases. I agree he was right to call for verification, but then he caught the attitude with ATC over a very common occurrence in busy airspace. Once he's told to be ready to copy, his comms get very precise and efficient. Then he has to wait while ATC handles multiple flights before he gets his number. ATC was really letting this guy know just how busy he is. ATC was on it! Other pilots on RUclips have talked about how important efficient and precise communication is in very busy airspace. I think this interaction is a great example of why that's crucial. I'm hoping they'd both cooled off before the phone call and they had a productive talk.
I don't understand the deification of controllers. Like your jobs can be done by a computer as of today.
I don’t understand the possible pilot deviation in the US anymore. It looks like you can get it for anythjng at this point. Not blaming the controller but I genuinely don’t understand
Don't you consider a pilot violation violate the WHITE HOUSE and CAPITOL area?
You have to really f up to get called rude by people from NJ. I lived there and picked up some influence from that state so I know what I’m talking about. Also, you are seeing what we consider rude: causing a holdup in line. Take care of your business and move your ass afterwards, and don’t do other stuff that slows things down either. There are other people waiting and not respecting their time is rude.
I do not understand why the pilot who asked for the heading is in the wrong? Doesnt he need to know this? He didnt step on/block on purpose..
Nor did the Tower. When you press the PTT button to talk, you instantly don't know who else is pressing it too. His mood to ATC is what was really out of place.
Plus the pilot already read back the instructions to confirm 120 heading. 😂@@VASAviation
It's my understanding that situations like this, controllers would prefer to "talk it out" over the phone so it doesn't turn into a circus over open comms.
very busy frequency, he should simply behave professionally and not bitch about being stepped on. (unnecessary bitching is wasting MORE time on a very congested frequency) - stepping on does happen, it is unintentional and he should know better. (unless he's a newbie with an attitude)
@VASAviation thank you for the response! okay, i get it. I listened to the video again more carefully. But on the other hand, for the airplane, it is better safe than sorry (to confirm the heading before he ends up in somebody else's way or smth)..
But they all stayed professional in the end
They should've told each other to calm down.
That always has the opposite effect.
This isn't JFK though
A nice assertive "relax!" also helps tremendously 😜
Never in the history of calming down has anyone ever calmed down from being told to calm down. 😉
JFK and Aeromexico. Hahahahaha
I'm with the pilot on this one. I don't care how many aircraft you are working, you have to pause between transmissions in case someone else is trying to get in. This controller was coming in instantly after each read back was complete. You can't do that. What if someone had been trying to get in with an emergency?
I have no idea what rule the controller thinks the pilot deviated from. Calling out a controller in a brief and polite way when they are doing a bad job is not a deviation.
Busy airspace