Could you imagine of Roland White existed in another technological time period. "I've designed the crossguard! Now, when you swordfight, your hands are protected." "But the blade looks like someone attacked it with a sledgehammer." "Don't care, protected hands. Now, excuse me, I'm gonna go sue that blacksmith over there."
He doesn't really seem like a patent troll to me. I mean, he thought his revolver design was great, the fact that he was wrong doesn't make him a patent troll. I would tend to apply that label to companies or individuals that buy existing patents specifically to sue people for infringement, or create and patent things with no intention of ever bringing them to market. It seems likely to me that he patented it in good faith, and essentially got lucky (although not so much in the deal he did with S&W).
I love what Mark Twain had to say about such blackpowder .22 pistols: "It carried a ball like a homeopathic pill, and it took the full seven to make a dose for an adult".
Ah, the same passage in _Roughing It_ wherein he describes the joys of the Allen pepperbox. "To aim along the turning barrel and hit the thing aimed at was a feat which was probably not done with an 'Allen' in the world." A true classic.
Devin schalk That would be a long video, or a shallow one. He has covered loads of old revolvers individually- idk if it's the ones you're interested in, but check the playlists on this channel.
I suspect the reason why a .22 wasn't frowned upon is because even a wound from a .22 back then might end with someone's leg getting sawed off from infection. Nasty.
That may be true but that may not stop them from killing you in the week or so it would take to happen. Still, it had to be marginally better than a sharp stick and easier to hide too.
clarkcolt45 maybe so but chances are they could still kill you before they die. Unless you hit the brain, brainstem or heart they aren't going to be stopped quickly by any pistol, especially one this weak.
9:25 "sewing machines, early automobiles" I think that the Rollin White that was involved with these enterprises was Rollin Henry White (1872-1962), not the holder of the bored-through patent Rollin A. White (1817-1892). Maybe they were related, but I couldn't find any evidence of that. To confuse things even more, Rollin Henry 'sewing machine' White was the son of Thomas Howard White (1836-1914), who founded the White Sewing Machine Company in 1876 with Rollin Charles White (1837-1920, no relation).
Thanks for the info, I've worked on "White sewing machines" quite a bit fifty years ago, as I was getting into working on black powder guns. You put quite a bit of info available.
I really like these early mini revolvers and own a few of them. My favorites are the Whitneyville Armory models. They are fun and reasonably accurate guns,and safe to use with modern CB rimfire ammo.
Ian - Totally makes sense that Rollin White would have been involved with sewing machines and automobiles. Lowell was a manufacturing hub during the Industrial Revolution. The textile mills were booming in Lowell up until the late 1890's, and the General Electric plant was manufacturing car parts. I had a great-grandfather who worked at GE assembling starter boxes for early automobiles and before that he worked on a horse farm. When he was sent off to Europe in WW1, the skills he learned from working with auto parts and raising horses placed him with a Wagon Train that brought ammo and supplies to the front lines.
He wasn't involved in any of those things. Rollin Henry White was a totally different person from the "inventor" of the bored-through cylinder. They weren't even related.
This looks remarkably like my Colt New 22. 7-shots (it was manufactured in 1873 but the long rifle cylinder is a year newer 1874) the internals are similar. Very cool. Sometimes I forget it's been a working pistol for 147 years. No idea when, where or who put the new cylinder in it.
FYI Rollin White's patent is number 12,648 issued 3 April 1855 and is title "Improvement in Repeating Fire-Arms". Also it appears that the bore is larger than .22. Could it be actual .32 rimfire?
Nope. It was an idiotic paper cartridge loading system. Eugene Lefaucheux, the real inventor of the bored-through cylinder, had patents granted in London April 27, 1854 and Paris on June 10th, 1854.
@@GarfieldEnjoyer1878 Only in the technical sense, and barely even that. Lefaucheux's guns actually worked, while White's design would have maimed whoever tried to shoot it. That's why Samuel Colt sent Rollin White away, he was no fool and knew that the design was impractical.
06:30 ... the reason getting shot was getting shot, regardless of the caliber: contaminated puncture wounds. The bullet would rip into dirty clothing and pull parts of that clothing into the wound - the same problem happens toady... but back in the 1800s, there was no way to fight infection, especially infected wounds to the torso. If you took a bullet through the stomach and survived the gunshot, you were going to face the very high chance of dying from infection over the next week. Big caliber, fast death... little wimpy caliber, slow death via infection and septic shock. (yes I know... too many years too late to comment and make a difference)
Interesting.. Thanks, Ian. You should do a video on the early 45s S&W and the 44s with that Army Col. , the Russian 44 contract guns and the S&W No.3 44 break open guns. Some were quite accurate and real collector items.
Could be so interesting, for you to make a review on the famous golden Gadaffi gun. Think that gun would be sold for a unbelievable amount of money on auction.
Given the medical care of the day if a gun is capable of breaking the skin and not make an exit wound you are probably just as likely to die from the treatment as the actual shot. Remember that as much as 30 years later even a President died from having a bullet removed. McKinley was the President by the way. So a gun is a gun is a gun makes more sense in that light; at least to me. Edit: forgot to mention infection from stuff on the bullet, such as clothes the bullet passed through. Also; excellent video and I only pointed this out because you seemed to question it during the video.
I will concede the point that medical technology grew during the Civil War and also that a GSW wasn’t an instant death sentence (even though I didn’t claim that, Theodore Roosevelt lived for a number of years after being shot and Andrew Johnson was shot multiple times over the course of a number of years prior to even becoming President just to keep with the theme). Though rereading my statement I did skew that way heavily. But I won’t concede the point (and I admit I should have been more accurate in my original statement) that to regular folk who saw or heard stories about people going to the doctor after getting shot by any gun and losing the limb it might seem irrelevant what caliber gun had actually shot them. But you are correct in calling my original statement into question so thank you. Don’t want to spread misinformation. I also want to qualify that my perspective on this is not one based on medical technology but on the average person’s perception of a GSW based on the premise that a gun is a gun is a gun regardless of caliber. Edited for spelling.
Definitely agree with your assessment of politics today; made me laugh out loud so thank you for that. I will admit to confusion upon reading the first sentence because I didn't mention Lincoln but very nicely played once I saw where you were headed. 10/10 would steal that joke during a party.
Great video, as always. I have a question, How is it possible to take out a patent for something that is already being manufactured? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Lefaucheux revolvers were shown at the 1851 Exhibition.
Not really a forgotten weapon, more of a legendary gun, but if you ever find yourself a H&K G3, I'd love a video on that gun. That ycling system is such a mystery to me.
the lack of care of stopping power was most likely due to the state of medical techniques of the time. when a hit would probably be inevitably fatal due to infection most buyers probably just considered cost and useability.
I like to picture the people in charge of Smith & Wesson (not sure whether that was still Messrs. Smith and Wesson at the time) pouring themselves a celebratory Scotch and ceremoniously firing up cigars the size of kielbasa as the president of the Rube-of-the-Month Club left their office with his "we get almost all the profits, and YOU get to spend all your time and money in court" contract in hand.
Do you think the attitude to small bore guns was because of the prevalence of infection? I mean, an open wound like that sounds like a death knell regardless of the size. I imagine caliber had more to do with effective range than the danger of the gun back then.
Was this style of revolver popular at the time? I have an old Hood Firearms 'Marquis of Lorne' .32 rimfire pistol that looks and functions almost exactly the same way.
Regarding the wider acceptance of smaller caliber weapons back in the older days: I believe it's worth considering how much worse the available medical care was back then. A 22 might not kill you outright, but the risks of lead poisoning or infections during surgery etc must mean the lethality of each bullet was quite a lot higher than today!
About the cartrige weakness: do you think the lack of concern about the cartrige's power for self-defence (by today's standards) might have something to do with the medicine of the time, when even a small wound could get infected and cause death? That is a pretty good deterrent i think....
So was the S&W Model 1... Tipping down the barrel just allowed you to remove the cylinder. I have an H&R 922 that has an axis pin release for loading very similar to this.
For a Remington, anyway... (Cylinder was much harder to swap on Colts.) But you have to be *really* careful handling loaded and capped cylinders. Bang a cap against the frame tying to swap too fast and you could do yourself some real mischief.
Why was it that most old revolvers frames made out of brass. Is brass in strong enough to handle a force is applied to it on the gun was fired. I also heard some old revolvers cylinder were made with twist iron?
Bob Fish Maybe they could get away with it, seeing as black powder is lower pressure than modern smokeless powder. I think that maybe they used brass because it resists corrosion better, but I am by no means an expert.
Cheaper to produce as high strength steel or aluminum alloys weren't really available. It's easier to machine with the type of machine tools they had, you can even make a brass frame by hand easy enough if you have the patience. And as said above, black powder is lower pressure so brass was able to withstand the stress of the cartridges of the time without any issues.
Corey Denton whenever I read something about confederate revolvers they talk about something called twisted iron another thing what metal was use normally to make the revolver cylinder
It's worth noting that medical technology at the time was much more limited then what we're used to. So even getting shot by a small .22 black powder hand gun would be bad, as it has a high chance of getting infected. The resulting infection could take a limb, or in the worse case scenario, lead to a slow and painful death.
I suppose getting shot with anything back in that day was a risky proposition giving the state of medical science. Not sure if that was entirely or even part of the reason that .22 was accepted as much as other calibers. Just a thought.
especially considering how many rounds of .22 you can fit in a certain size, relative to a larger bullet. A revolver with seven shots in a tiny package like that would be pretty useful I think.
**Correction** I have a 1904 (Thomas H.) White, pedal powered sewing machine in my living room right now. Apparently, and coincidently, Thomas H. White had a son named Rollin White Who created the White Motor Company in 1900 which neither made guns nor sewing machines.
Totally different guy. I mentioned this elsewhere, but even going back 5 generations, there is absolutely no family connection between the two Rollins.
RUclips has always had issues with pushing sub videos on occasion, try unsubscribing and resubscribing. Turning notifications on might help, might not. Even something as simple as loggin out, watching a couple of vids 'anonymously' and then logging back in has helped me.
hey back in the 1800s getting center mass with a 22 could prove fatal as internal surgery wasn't a thing till a lot later plus they weren't dealing with harden criminals or drugged up theif's criminals have some more brash theses days
this gun has a .22 blackpowder, if you are unlucky the wintercoat of the attacker is to thick. I would rather have a colt Dragoon in my nightstand, if I have to check something that sounds strange in the night. I guess officer Serpico got hit by a .22 lr, not a blackpowder .22
Exploatores that plinker is propably more practical than a colt dragoon for self defense at home- but a good old break action double barrel shotgun would be even better for that age.
Agreed on the shot placement, and a .22 in the right place (solar plexus, eye, etc) can be instantly fatal. But the problem with carrying .22 for defense in a handgun is that the already low power cartridge can't reach it's full velocity (the muzzle velocity data on the box is usually measured through a rifle length barrel), and in a fight there's no guarantee that the person defending themselves will have the time or the wherewithal to carefully aim for a vital area. A .22 out of a pistol barrel hitting generally center mass may nick the aortal artery if the shooter is lucky and the attacker will bleed out in a few minutes without medical care. However, it's not likely to induce sufficient hydrostatic shock to stop a determined or drugged attacker; the attacker may bleed out a few blocks over while trying to get away, but he would likely still close with and kill or injure the shooter. There is the possibility on the flip side that getting shot with anything, even non-fatally, would induce psychological shock and panic in the attacker, and .22 would be as good as anything else for this purpose. That can't be guaranteed, though. The shooter could just as easily end up with an attacker who takes four .22s to the chest and one to the thigh without even realizing it until the fight is over.
+Laird Cummings Not to ruin your example, but Officer Serpico was able to shoot back even after the bullet hit him in the face. The thing that stopped him was the fact that he had gotten himself wedged in a partially open door that still had the security chain attached.
Basically none. I looked at the ancestry of Rollin Henry White (the steam car guy) going back 5 generations to Thomas White (Apr 15, 1742-Feb 26, 1827), and there is no connection at all to the other Rollin.
ostiariusalpha Oh, thanks lot for the reply. It's one of those odd coincidences that there were two people called Rollin White, who were near each other both in time and space, who also where great inventors but who had no relation to one another.
Trust smith & wesson to screw over a patent holder in such a way "We'd like to use your patent, our offer is 500$ now and 25c per gun made...take it or leave it" yes that was a lot of money back then but still, 25c royalties per gun?! that's ridiculous!
MegaRazorback Getting paid by each gun made doesn't seem that bad, they don't even have to sell it for a person to get their royalties. I don't know what .25$ would be worth today though.
Even so, such a small amount per gun made is a tad dickish imo, S&W was practically taking 99% of the profits per gun sold on the commercial market and any military contracts that pertained to revolvers and this patent. Then again...this isn't the first time S&W has done something like this, they have screwed over other people during their existence as a company time and time again and each time nothing really happened as they could BS their way out of it if needed.
What a stupid contract clause White agreed to! He should have sold it outright for $50K. Walk away rich & let S&W deal w the lawsuits. He got schnookered. I'm sure the S&W couldn't believe he agreed to it.
Now honestly... this gun is kinda cute ^^' However honestly I wouldn't want to get shot even by the most wimpy round in the 1800s, considering things like Sepsis were pretty common ways of dying :D
I feel kinda bad for Rollin White, what started out and should have been a good deal didn't work out as he had planned, a shame considering the invention and how it further evolved
Don't feel too bad for him, he was kind of a dick. The bored through cylinder was basically the only good idea he ever had, and in a sense, even that was nothing but patent trolling.
I don't feel bad for anyone going broke trying to defend patents, the whole concept is absurd, anti-consumer, anti-competition, technologically destructive, and morally questionable at best. It is, in essence, a service offered by a government entity in which they agree to offer the use of their immense powers to hinder all other businesses within your market from competing with you by threatening to take significant amounts of money from them if they produce a product that has little as only one irrelevant or as many as all significant features that range anywhere from extraordinarily specific in concept & function or completely & utterly generic if not irrelevant to the function of a product, and typically described in extremely vague, wide reaching terms. And, with NO benefit to humanity in general, the public at large, the country, or the economy. It is of no benefit to anyone but the holder & the government. I mean, he got a patent for DRILLING A HOLE... No better example of the, at best, completely flawed concept, at worst, outright fraudulent idea of patents is the automobile industry. As everyone should know, the invention of the first intentionally designed production automobile(namely in the context of internal combustion powered) is rightly credited to Karl Benz in 1885. For this, Benz had a patent in Germany of course, as one does. Meanwhile, in the US, a *patent lawyer* by the name of George Selden would be awarded a patent in 1895 for the gasoline powered 4 wheel automobile. He had filed his patent in 1878, after having only created a prototype of a scaled down Brayton engine(which may or may not have even ran, seems a bit dubious) and nothing more, with numerous amendments delaying its approval some 16 years. With this patent, Selden wouldn't even produce an automobile for the majority of its enforcement, only licensing it to the Electric Vehicle Company, whom, after completely & utterly failing as an automobile manufacturer, would in turn instead try to make an income solely by suing violators of the Selden patent(now, not only has Selden not even made a single automobile, but he isn't even enforcing his own patent, what with a sole licensee doing this - making money & hindering an entire national industry with nothing more than a drawing and a few paragraphs), namely focusing their efforts on the Winton Motor Carriage Company, the undisputed volume leader manufacturer in the US. But, it gets better! The presidents of Packard and Olds Motor Vehicle Co, seeing an opportunity, together created what would become the Association of Licensed Automobile Manufacturers. They threatened the EVC that they would bolster Winton's case in the suit IF the EVC didn't essentially merge the power of their license from Seldon with the association, giving members of the association favorable royalty rates and the power to determine who would and who would not receive a license to manufacture & sell automobiles in the US, in return for part of the royalties going to a pooled legal fund for the association to enforce the Seldon patent. So, now, neither Seldon nor the EVC is producing automobiles for sale, but BOTH are controlling the entire national industry, and either filing suit against or collecting royalties from every single company that IS actually producing automobiles for sale. Long story short, the ALAM - whose board was made up of East coast manufacturers of expensive luxury cars - monopolized the industry, cherry picking who would and would not be a recipient of a license("given the opportunity to pay ALAM for every car produced"). With the Olds company controlling the market share & industry within Detroit, MI specifically, the company's president(whom was also president of ALAM) was the most outspoken member of ALAM against licensing the Ford Motor Company, with Henry Ford legitimately seeking a license in spite of his disgust towards the whole concept & conglomeration. Of course, Ford, being a well established manufacturer by this point, would go on to fight this, winning the case against the validity of the patent in 1911,only one year before it had expired, with ALAM choosing not to dispute the final ruling(in spite of the multiple appeals over the course of this case that originated in 1903, the final ruling was quite clear in its impact on the interpretation & validity of the Selden patent). In spite of the seemingly wasted money & effort of this case given the patent expiration, it's said that the case cost Ford roughly $7 per car manufactured & sold in this time, while paying the royalties would have cost approximately $12 per car. Of course, the case also broke the monopoly that was ALAM, whom no doubt had plans to continue their dominance through questionable tactics into the foreseeable future. Ford was quoted as saying something to the affect of "...the automobile would be more advanced today if George Selden had not been born at all". In the end, Selden would eventually have 2 barely running examples of the automobile in his patent(they, legitimately, could just barely stay running when demonstrated) - made specifically to be used in demonstrations in the suit against Ford in the first decade of the century. Selden would also found the Selden Motor Vehicle company in 1905, a failure of a company of course that would produce cars only from 1909 to 1912(coincidental to the suit, I'm sure...), before being reorganized as a truck manufacturer in 1913, where it actually saw some success. Needless to say, the Selden patent - by all accounts, a perfectly legitimate patent(as Ian notes, patents only have to describe a "unique" idea, not a FUNCTIONAL idea) - had NO positive for the nation, consumers, for the economy, for an entire industry, or for ANYONE except for the patent lawyer George Selden and a handful of already wealthy men & companies that used their mass amounts of money to control the powers of government to hinder all of their competitors. One single patent set the US auto industry back AT LEAST 10 years(the 10 years of greatest growth & technological advancement for the industry at that) behind the rest of the world, this affect lasting for probably 30 to 40 years. Auto manufacturers of Europe had to developed the dual overhead cam, 4 valve per cylinder, pent roof cylinder head(debuted in 1912, so technologically advanced that it's the standard cylinder head configuration used in the highest performance internal combustion engines of today, like F1 cars & Le Mans Prototypes, all the way down to the shape of the combustion chamber - it shits all over 'hemi' cylinder heads) around the same time that Henry Ford was spending nearly 7 figures to destroy the Selden patent and its monopoly. This is a significant factor in North America's lack of success in racing through those first few decades, especially in F1. Patents don't even really help the "little guy", even though that's the intent - if an established competitor really wants to take you out, they will make you enforce your patent by suing them for violating it, file appeal after appeal, and use any other legal tool at their disposal, until you either give up on enforcing your patent, nullifying it in spite of its continued existence & validity, or they'll bleed you dry until you fold. If you want to profit off of an idea, then shit or get off the pot. Spend the money and put forth the time & effort LIKE EVERYONE ELSE to manufacture & sell a product, or figure out how to sell your knowledge to a prospective buyer(good luck...), otherwise you're nothing more than a leach, a parasite, that doesn't deserve to profit from what is nothing more than a thought. The fact that one can receive a patent for an idea for a physical concept without needing to actually offer a physical, functioning proof of concept for demonstration of this idea is not only absurd, but evidence that the service of patenting is nothing more than another revenue generator for the government - they can generate a lot more income from patent filings & associated fee work when they don't require anyone to prove that the idea they're trying to patent even works, or is even feasible in reality... If Rollin White was actually interested in advancing technology or offering the market a new idea, he would've actually tried to manufacture a product based on his patent or sought to work with someone that could facilitate that. Instead, he just tried to leach off of the work of others, and it backfired. Unfortunately, for Selden, it did not...
Even today a Gun is Just a Gun & all have the potential to kill even UK Sub 12ft/lb air rifles , particularly when Modern Medical aid is unavailable ,So I guess any wound received (Even from a BP .22 ) was a potential death sentence at the time . Another great video Ian ,Thanks for the Education & entertainment
Indeed it is a thing, there are games with hundreds or thousands of "achievements" that you get for doing things like loading the game and walking three steps. What I find really unbelievable is that people pay actual money for that experience. Kinda seems like paying someone to tell you that you're a nice guy, but what do I know?
This 22 would be considered weak by today's standards of 22lr but if you poke a hole in the right spot it will kill someone. I don't think my little NAA 22wmr has to worry about being replaced by something like this, lol
Could you imagine of Roland White existed in another technological time period. "I've designed the crossguard! Now, when you swordfight, your hands are protected." "But the blade looks like someone attacked it with a sledgehammer." "Don't care, protected hands. Now, excuse me, I'm gonna go sue that blacksmith over there."
He was basically an early patent troll.
Jobs would be proud.
He doesn't really seem like a patent troll to me. I mean, he thought his revolver design was great, the fact that he was wrong doesn't make him a patent troll. I would tend to apply that label to companies or individuals that buy existing patents specifically to sue people for infringement, or create and patent things with no intention of ever bringing them to market. It seems likely to me that he patented it in good faith, and essentially got lucky (although not so much in the deal he did with S&W).
I love what Mark Twain had to say about such blackpowder .22 pistols: "It carried a ball like a homeopathic pill, and it took the full seven to make a dose for an adult".
Lazarus Long That's an incredible quote
Huh. I was just reading a Robert Heinlein story that referenced Mark Twain several times right before i watched this video and read this comment.
Mark Twain said it all except for those things which were said by Yogi Berra.
Ah, the same passage in _Roughing It_ wherein he describes the joys of the Allen pepperbox. "To aim along the turning barrel and hit the thing aimed at was a feat which was probably not done with an 'Allen' in the world." A true classic.
Funny thing is one of those will poke a hole right through your internal organs & kill you
I would love to see a full length documentary produced by you about industrial revolution era revolvers. Its my favorite era of gun history.
Devin schalk That would be a long video, or a shallow one. He has covered loads of old revolvers individually- idk if it's the ones you're interested in, but check the playlists on this channel.
I suspect the reason why a .22 wasn't frowned upon is because even a wound from a .22 back then might end with someone's leg getting sawed off from infection. Nasty.
That may be true but that may not stop them from killing you in the week or so it would take to happen. Still, it had to be marginally better than a sharp stick and easier to hide too.
if you unload a full cylinder at close range (indoors without heavy clothes) into someones stomach with that thing - they will die indeed
clarkcolt45 maybe so but chances are they could still kill you before they die. Unless you hit the brain, brainstem or heart they aren't going to be stopped quickly by any pistol, especially one this weak.
9:25 "sewing machines, early automobiles" I think that the Rollin White that was involved with these enterprises was Rollin Henry White (1872-1962), not the holder of the bored-through patent Rollin A. White (1817-1892). Maybe they were related, but I couldn't find any evidence of that. To confuse things even more, Rollin Henry 'sewing machine' White was the son of Thomas Howard White (1836-1914), who founded the White Sewing Machine Company in 1876 with Rollin Charles White (1837-1920, no relation).
Brian Taylor Whiteception
Rollin's son was named Herbert (1860-1942). Both are buried here in Lowell MA
Thanks for the info, I've worked on "White sewing machines" quite a bit fifty years ago, as I was getting into working on black powder guns. You put quite a bit of info available.
.22 Might be a wimpy round, but without antibiotics even a wimpy round was a potential death sentence from sepsis.
I've seen revolvers from less than a decade ago in worse shape than that one. Actually quite impressively well preserved.
I'm a fairly new subscriber but I do enjoy your videos and how informative and well put together they are keep it up
Dear Gun Jesus,
Could you please do a review of The Intratec TEC-9 or one of its close variants.
I really like these early mini revolvers and own a few of them. My favorites are the Whitneyville Armory models. They are fun and reasonably accurate guns,and safe to use with modern CB rimfire ammo.
Ian - Totally makes sense that Rollin White would have been involved with sewing machines and automobiles. Lowell was a manufacturing hub during the Industrial Revolution. The textile mills were booming in Lowell up until the late 1890's, and the General Electric plant was manufacturing car parts. I had a great-grandfather who worked at GE assembling starter boxes for early automobiles and before that he worked on a horse farm. When he was sent off to Europe in WW1, the skills he learned from working with auto parts and raising horses placed him with a Wagon Train that brought ammo and supplies to the front lines.
He wasn't involved in any of those things. Rollin Henry White was a totally different person from the "inventor" of the bored-through cylinder. They weren't even related.
This is perfect simplicity. If one were to choose to home build semi-effective pistols, it wouldn't get much simpler than this design in 9mil or .39
The White Steam Cars were very interesting vehicles. Jay Leno has a few of them if anyone's interested in seeing them on RUclips.
That's really cool ! Thanks for such a good video.
I seriously don't understand who dislikes these videos
Great lesson Ian
westernarc antigun weirdos who think any info about guns is promotion of evil maybe??? Or people with gun videos nobody watchs so they are jealous??
Thanks Ian!
This looks remarkably like my Colt New 22. 7-shots (it was manufactured in 1873 but the long rifle cylinder is a year newer 1874) the internals are similar. Very cool. Sometimes I forget it's been a working pistol for 147 years. No idea when, where or who put the new cylinder in it.
Beautiful little revolver!
FYI Rollin White's patent is number 12,648 issued 3 April 1855 and is title "Improvement in Repeating Fire-Arms". Also it appears that the bore is larger than .22. Could it be actual .32 rimfire?
Nope. It was an idiotic paper cartridge loading system. Eugene Lefaucheux, the real inventor of the bored-through cylinder, had patents granted in London April 27, 1854 and Paris on June 10th, 1854.
@@GarfieldEnjoyer1878 Only in the technical sense, and barely even that. Lefaucheux's guns actually worked, while White's design would have maimed whoever tried to shoot it. That's why Samuel Colt sent Rollin White away, he was no fool and knew that the design was impractical.
A serious revolver in .44 rim fire was what was needed......this is what s&w deliverd.
06:30 ... the reason getting shot was getting shot, regardless of the caliber: contaminated puncture wounds. The bullet would rip into dirty clothing and pull parts of that clothing into the wound - the same problem happens toady... but back in the 1800s, there was no way to fight infection, especially infected wounds to the torso. If you took a bullet through the stomach and survived the gunshot, you were going to face the very high chance of dying from infection over the next week. Big caliber, fast death... little wimpy caliber, slow death via infection and septic shock.
(yes I know... too many years too late to comment and make a difference)
So rollin white basically patented a hole??
What is this, a revolver for ants?
Classic zoolander
Not for _ants,_ but for _aunts._
Interesting.. Thanks, Ian. You should do a video on the early 45s S&W and the 44s with that Army Col. , the Russian 44 contract guns and the S&W No.3 44 break open guns. Some were quite accurate and real collector items.
Could be so interesting, for you to make a review on the famous golden Gadaffi gun.
Think that gun would be sold for a unbelievable amount of money on auction.
Given the medical care of the day if a gun is capable of breaking the skin and not make an exit wound you are probably just as likely to die from the treatment as the actual shot. Remember that as much as 30 years later even a President died from having a bullet removed. McKinley was the President by the way. So a gun is a gun is a gun makes more sense in that light; at least to me.
Edit: forgot to mention infection from stuff on the bullet, such as clothes the bullet passed through. Also; excellent video and I only pointed this out because you seemed to question it during the video.
I will concede the point that medical technology grew during the Civil War and also that a GSW wasn’t an instant death sentence (even though I didn’t claim that, Theodore Roosevelt lived for a number of years after being shot and Andrew Johnson was shot multiple times over the course of a number of years prior to even becoming President just to keep with the theme). Though rereading my statement I did skew that way heavily.
But I won’t concede the point (and I admit I should have been more accurate in my original statement) that to regular folk who saw or heard stories about people going to the doctor after getting shot by any gun and losing the limb it might seem irrelevant what caliber gun had actually shot them. But you are correct in calling my original statement into question so thank you. Don’t want to spread misinformation. I also want to qualify that my perspective on this is not one based on medical technology but on the average person’s perception of a GSW based on the premise that a gun is a gun is a gun regardless of caliber.
Edited for spelling.
Definitely agree with your assessment of politics today; made me laugh out loud so thank you for that. I will admit to confusion upon reading the first sentence because I didn't mention Lincoln but very nicely played once I saw where you were headed. 10/10 would steal that joke during a party.
what about whitneyville? I have same brass 7 shot, 22, but a whitneyville..... thanks for any info
Great video, as always. I have a question, How is it possible to take out a patent for something that is already being manufactured? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Lefaucheux revolvers were shown at the 1851 Exhibition.
Eugene Lefaucheux is in fact the true inventor of the bored-through cylinder. Both his Paris and London patent grants predate White's by a year.
Patents apply on a per-country basis. And it wasn't exactly easy to communicate across the ocean in those days.
Hey Ian, do you have a video on an FN49? i did not see a link on you site.
Hey Ian, when do you plan on coming here to South Africa and what places will you be visiting?
Not a safe place to visit for white folk these days...
Well I haven't been shot yet so I'm sure it's fine for a visit.
Not really a forgotten weapon, more of a legendary gun, but if you ever find yourself a H&K G3, I'd love a video on that gun. That ycling system is such a mystery to me.
the lack of care of stopping power was most likely due to the state of medical techniques of the time. when a hit would probably be inevitably fatal due to infection most buyers probably just considered cost and useability.
Thanks Ian :)
I like to picture the people in charge of Smith & Wesson (not sure whether that was still Messrs. Smith and Wesson at the time) pouring themselves a celebratory Scotch and ceremoniously firing up cigars the size of kielbasa as the president of the Rube-of-the-Month Club left their office with his "we get almost all the profits, and YOU get to spend all your time and money in court" contract in hand.
Do you think the attitude to small bore guns was because of the prevalence of infection? I mean, an open wound like that sounds like a death knell regardless of the size. I imagine caliber had more to do with effective range than the danger of the gun back then.
Has Forgotten Weapons ever done a video on gunpowder? The history of it and how it's made?
Have one in the shop and the cylinder stop is missing. Is there parts diagram or info on this...even a pic of it would be great
Was this style of revolver popular at the time? I have an old Hood Firearms 'Marquis of Lorne' .32 rimfire pistol that looks and functions almost exactly the same way.
Have you ever done a video on the smith and Wesson model 1?
Regarding the wider acceptance of smaller caliber weapons back in the older days: I believe it's worth considering how much worse the available medical care was back then. A 22 might not kill you outright, but the risks of lead poisoning or infections during surgery etc must mean the lethality of each bullet was quite a lot higher than today!
About the cartrige weakness: do you think the lack of concern about the cartrige's power for self-defence (by today's standards) might have something to do with the medicine of the time, when even a small wound could get infected and cause death? That is a pretty good deterrent i think....
PPP perfect pocket pistol
Loaded by taking out cylinder
So was the S&W Model 1... Tipping down the barrel just allowed you to remove the cylinder.
I have an H&R 922 that has an axis pin release for loading very similar to this.
That was the fastest reload for a cap & ball revolver too.
For a Remington, anyway... (Cylinder was much harder to swap on Colts.) But you have to be *really* careful handling loaded and capped cylinders. Bang a cap against the frame tying to swap too fast and you could do yourself some real mischief.
Do you think you could still shoot it with cb caps or something?
Why was it that most old revolvers frames made out of brass. Is brass in strong enough to handle a force is applied to it on the gun was fired. I also heard some old revolvers cylinder were made with twist iron?
Bob Fish
Maybe they could get away with it, seeing as black powder is lower pressure than modern smokeless powder.
I think that maybe they used brass because it resists corrosion better, but I am by no means an expert.
Cheaper to produce as high strength steel or aluminum alloys weren't really available. It's easier to machine with the type of machine tools they had, you can even make a brass frame by hand easy enough if you have the patience. And as said above, black powder is lower pressure so brass was able to withstand the stress of the cartridges of the time without any issues.
Brass was easy to cast, easier to machine.
Corey Denton whenever I read something about confederate revolvers they talk about something called twisted iron another thing what metal was use normally to make the revolver cylinder
for low pressure rimfire, it is fine. most brass framed revolvers you'll think of were produced in the confederacy where steel just wasn't available
Ah! I'm from Lowell MA!
The whitneyville model 1 looks identical to this but it has a birds head grip
Is it for shooting ticks?
Has anybody else noticed that very small caliber pistols declined in popularity as antibiotics became more widespread and popular?
Very cool!
I came here after watching a 2015 vid about a Walker Colt and I'm pretty sure this gun could fit inside that Walker with room to spare.
I want to open carry this , but like as an earring
Was this Roland’s first special?
I can't believe that this "idea" was deserving of patent.
Am I the only one that read it as Ron White?
Good thing the cylinder is easy to remove, it's also the only way to reload the gun.
It's worth noting that medical technology at the time was much more limited then what we're used to. So even getting shot by a small .22 black powder hand gun would be bad, as it has a high chance of getting infected. The resulting infection could take a limb, or in the worse case scenario, lead to a slow and painful death.
Im sure the caliber didnt matter much back then since any hit, especially torso, would probably result in an infection and eventually death.
It goes pew pew.
Considering medical technology back in that day, getting hit with any kind of bullet would be a deterrent.
So they formed an early monopoly on revolvers based on the basic form of a revolver and he was the scapegoat to the monopoly.
I suppose getting shot with anything back in that day was a risky proposition giving the state of medical science. Not sure if that was entirely or even part of the reason that .22 was accepted as much as other calibers. Just a thought.
especially considering how many rounds of .22 you can fit in a certain size, relative to a larger bullet. A revolver with seven shots in a tiny package like that would be pretty useful I think.
**Correction** I have a 1904 (Thomas H.) White, pedal powered sewing machine in my living room right now. Apparently, and coincidently, Thomas H. White had a son named Rollin White Who created the White Motor Company in 1900 which neither made guns nor sewing machines.
Totally different guy. I mentioned this elsewhere, but even going back 5 generations, there is absolutely no family connection between the two Rollins.
Thank you.
Why are your vids not showing in my feed? I have to go to your page and check for new videos.
Baconator Doom Have you clicked the bell?
RUclips has always had issues with pushing sub videos on occasion, try unsubscribing and resubscribing. Turning notifications on might help, might not. Even something as simple as loggin out, watching a couple of vids 'anonymously' and then logging back in has helped me.
Ian. I think it's time to auction off your venerable Polo shirt :)
hey back in the 1800s getting center mass with a 22 could prove fatal as internal surgery wasn't a thing till a lot later plus they weren't dealing with harden criminals or drugged up theif's criminals have some more brash theses days
the problem is that the criminal have time to do a lot before he dies a week later from the infection.
this gun has a .22 blackpowder, if you are unlucky the wintercoat of the attacker is to thick. I would rather have a colt Dragoon in my nightstand, if I have to check something that sounds strange in the night. I guess officer Serpico got hit by a .22 lr, not a blackpowder .22
Exploatores that plinker is propably more practical than a colt dragoon for self defense at home- but a good old break action double barrel shotgun would be even better for that age.
Agreed on the shot placement, and a .22 in the right place (solar plexus, eye, etc) can be instantly fatal. But the problem with carrying .22 for defense in a handgun is that the already low power cartridge can't reach it's full velocity (the muzzle velocity data on the box is usually measured through a rifle length barrel), and in a fight there's no guarantee that the person defending themselves will have the time or the wherewithal to carefully aim for a vital area. A .22 out of a pistol barrel hitting generally center mass may nick the aortal artery if the shooter is lucky and the attacker will bleed out in a few minutes without medical care. However, it's not likely to induce sufficient hydrostatic shock to stop a determined or drugged attacker; the attacker may bleed out a few blocks over while trying to get away, but he would likely still close with and kill or injure the shooter. There is the possibility on the flip side that getting shot with anything, even non-fatally, would induce psychological shock and panic in the attacker, and .22 would be as good as anything else for this purpose. That can't be guaranteed, though. The shooter could just as easily end up with an attacker who takes four .22s to the chest and one to the thigh without even realizing it until the fight is over.
+Laird Cummings Not to ruin your example, but Officer Serpico was able to shoot back even after the bullet hit him in the face. The thing that stopped him was the fact that he had gotten himself wedged in a partially open door that still had the security chain attached.
Was the other Rollin White from the White Steam Car company related to this Rollin white?
Basically none. I looked at the ancestry of Rollin Henry White (the steam car guy) going back 5 generations to Thomas White (Apr 15, 1742-Feb 26, 1827), and there is no connection at all to the other Rollin.
ostiariusalpha Oh, thanks lot for the reply. It's one of those odd coincidences that there were two people called Rollin White, who were near each other both in time and space, who also where great inventors but who had no relation to one another.
+vanpastel There were three. Rollin Charles White was the one involved with his dad's sewing machine company.
Audio goof at 04:04
In times with no effective modern surgery and no antibiotics, being shot really was being shot.
Trust smith & wesson to screw over a patent holder in such a way "We'd like to use your patent, our offer is 500$ now and 25c per gun made...take it or leave it" yes that was a lot of money back then but still, 25c royalties per gun?! that's ridiculous!
MegaRazorback Getting paid by each gun made doesn't seem that bad, they don't even have to sell it for a person to get their royalties. I don't know what .25$ would be worth today though.
Even so, such a small amount per gun made is a tad dickish imo, S&W was practically taking 99% of the profits per gun sold on the commercial market and any military contracts that pertained to revolvers and this patent. Then again...this isn't the first time S&W has done something like this, they have screwed over other people during their existence as a company time and time again and each time nothing really happened as they could BS their way out of it if needed.
MegaRazorback You've got a point, I'd need to research it more myself either way.
Best I can figure around $6.00
so not all that much considering the average price for a S&W revolver back then was around 30-50$ i think.
The original North American Arms 22.
That's what I thought of too. However the two NAA mags I have are better in every way but maybe the sights.
What a stupid contract clause White agreed to! He should have sold it outright for $50K. Walk away rich & let S&W deal w the lawsuits. He got schnookered. I'm sure the S&W couldn't believe he agreed to it.
Deadly if it had a bayonet attached.
Hi Ian, please do AEK 971 or AK 107 or similar guns with self balance mechanism. It is one of the best guns of all time!
Now honestly... this gun is kinda cute ^^'
However honestly I wouldn't want to get shot even by the most wimpy round in the 1800s, considering things like Sepsis were pretty common ways of dying :D
I feel kinda bad for Rollin White, what started out and should have been a good deal didn't work out as he had planned, a shame considering the invention and how it further evolved
Don't feel too bad for him, he was kind of a dick. The bored through cylinder was basically the only good idea he ever had, and in a sense, even that was nothing but patent trolling.
I don't feel bad for anyone going broke trying to defend patents, the whole concept is absurd, anti-consumer, anti-competition, technologically destructive, and morally questionable at best. It is, in essence, a service offered by a government entity in which they agree to offer the use of their immense powers to hinder all other businesses within your market from competing with you by threatening to take significant amounts of money from them if they produce a product that has little as only one irrelevant or as many as all significant features that range anywhere from extraordinarily specific in concept & function or completely & utterly generic if not irrelevant to the function of a product, and typically described in extremely vague, wide reaching terms. And, with NO benefit to humanity in general, the public at large, the country, or the economy. It is of no benefit to anyone but the holder & the government.
I mean, he got a patent for DRILLING A HOLE...
No better example of the, at best, completely flawed concept, at worst, outright fraudulent idea of patents is the automobile industry. As everyone should know, the invention of the first intentionally designed production automobile(namely in the context of internal combustion powered) is rightly credited to Karl Benz in 1885. For this, Benz had a patent in Germany of course, as one does. Meanwhile, in the US, a *patent lawyer* by the name of George Selden would be awarded a patent in 1895 for the gasoline powered 4 wheel automobile. He had filed his patent in 1878, after having only created a prototype of a scaled down Brayton engine(which may or may not have even ran, seems a bit dubious) and nothing more, with numerous amendments delaying its approval some 16 years. With this patent, Selden wouldn't even produce an automobile for the majority of its enforcement, only licensing it to the Electric Vehicle Company, whom, after completely & utterly failing as an automobile manufacturer, would in turn instead try to make an income solely by suing violators of the Selden patent(now, not only has Selden not even made a single automobile, but he isn't even enforcing his own patent, what with a sole licensee doing this - making money & hindering an entire national industry with nothing more than a drawing and a few paragraphs), namely focusing their efforts on the Winton Motor Carriage Company, the undisputed volume leader manufacturer in the US.
But, it gets better! The presidents of Packard and Olds Motor Vehicle Co, seeing an opportunity, together created what would become the Association of Licensed Automobile Manufacturers. They threatened the EVC that they would bolster Winton's case in the suit IF the EVC didn't essentially merge the power of their license from Seldon with the association, giving members of the association favorable royalty rates and the power to determine who would and who would not receive a license to manufacture & sell automobiles in the US, in return for part of the royalties going to a pooled legal fund for the association to enforce the Seldon patent. So, now, neither Seldon nor the EVC is producing automobiles for sale, but BOTH are controlling the entire national industry, and either filing suit against or collecting royalties from every single company that IS actually producing automobiles for sale.
Long story short, the ALAM - whose board was made up of East coast manufacturers of expensive luxury cars - monopolized the industry, cherry picking who would and would not be a recipient of a license("given the opportunity to pay ALAM for every car produced"). With the Olds company controlling the market share & industry within Detroit, MI specifically, the company's president(whom was also president of ALAM) was the most outspoken member of ALAM against licensing the Ford Motor Company, with Henry Ford legitimately seeking a license in spite of his disgust towards the whole concept & conglomeration. Of course, Ford, being a well established manufacturer by this point, would go on to fight this, winning the case against the validity of the patent in 1911,only one year before it had expired, with ALAM choosing not to dispute the final ruling(in spite of the multiple appeals over the course of this case that originated in 1903, the final ruling was quite clear in its impact on the interpretation & validity of the Selden patent). In spite of the seemingly wasted money & effort of this case given the patent expiration, it's said that the case cost Ford roughly $7 per car manufactured & sold in this time, while paying the royalties would have cost approximately $12 per car. Of course, the case also broke the monopoly that was ALAM, whom no doubt had plans to continue their dominance through questionable tactics into the foreseeable future. Ford was quoted as saying something to the affect of "...the automobile would be more advanced today if George Selden had not been born at all".
In the end, Selden would eventually have 2 barely running examples of the automobile in his patent(they, legitimately, could just barely stay running when demonstrated) - made specifically to be used in demonstrations in the suit against Ford in the first decade of the century. Selden would also found the Selden Motor Vehicle company in 1905, a failure of a company of course that would produce cars only from 1909 to 1912(coincidental to the suit, I'm sure...), before being reorganized as a truck manufacturer in 1913, where it actually saw some success.
Needless to say, the Selden patent - by all accounts, a perfectly legitimate patent(as Ian notes, patents only have to describe a "unique" idea, not a FUNCTIONAL idea) - had NO positive for the nation, consumers, for the economy, for an entire industry, or for ANYONE except for the patent lawyer George Selden and a handful of already wealthy men & companies that used their mass amounts of money to control the powers of government to hinder all of their competitors. One single patent set the US auto industry back AT LEAST 10 years(the 10 years of greatest growth & technological advancement for the industry at that) behind the rest of the world, this affect lasting for probably 30 to 40 years. Auto manufacturers of Europe had to developed the dual overhead cam, 4 valve per cylinder, pent roof cylinder head(debuted in 1912, so technologically advanced that it's the standard cylinder head configuration used in the highest performance internal combustion engines of today, like F1 cars & Le Mans Prototypes, all the way down to the shape of the combustion chamber - it shits all over 'hemi' cylinder heads) around the same time that Henry Ford was spending nearly 7 figures to destroy the Selden patent and its monopoly. This is a significant factor in North America's lack of success in racing through those first few decades, especially in F1.
Patents don't even really help the "little guy", even though that's the intent - if an established competitor really wants to take you out, they will make you enforce your patent by suing them for violating it, file appeal after appeal, and use any other legal tool at their disposal, until you either give up on enforcing your patent, nullifying it in spite of its continued existence & validity, or they'll bleed you dry until you fold.
If you want to profit off of an idea, then shit or get off the pot. Spend the money and put forth the time & effort LIKE EVERYONE ELSE to manufacture & sell a product, or figure out how to sell your knowledge to a prospective buyer(good luck...), otherwise you're nothing more than a leach, a parasite, that doesn't deserve to profit from what is nothing more than a thought. The fact that one can receive a patent for an idea for a physical concept without needing to actually offer a physical, functioning proof of concept for demonstration of this idea is not only absurd, but evidence that the service of patenting is nothing more than another revenue generator for the government - they can generate a lot more income from patent filings & associated fee work when they don't require anyone to prove that the idea they're trying to patent even works, or is even feasible in reality...
If Rollin White was actually interested in advancing technology or offering the market a new idea, he would've actually tried to manufacture a product based on his patent or sought to work with someone that could facilitate that. Instead, he just tried to leach off of the work of others, and it backfired. Unfortunately, for Selden, it did not...
So... tell us how you really feel about the patent process, RyTrapp.
Praise be to Gun Jesus
This was a good light punch in the gut ,more likely to piss your opponent of than hurt him!
Have you been remonetized or is RUclips just running propaganda over your videos?
Forgotten Weapons was never demonetized in the first place.
Eddy Eikdal Forgotten Weapons and InRangeTV are two different channels, only the latter demonetized.
OH BOY, 3AM!
Even today a Gun is Just a Gun & all have the potential to kill even UK Sub 12ft/lb air rifles , particularly when Modern Medical aid is unavailable ,So I guess any wound received (Even from a BP .22 ) was a potential death sentence at the time . Another great video Ian ,Thanks for the Education & entertainment
Extensive backstory of semirelated copyright litigation before getting to the gun in the title of the video halfway through? What's this, CRsenal?
.22 short?
😮😀👍🏼 Nice Pocket Pistol Gun Jesus
4:05 8:31
i mean, i honestly wouldnt like to get shot by anything in the 1800s
Addpocalypse unsubscribed me from u
this is a gun for ants
the only thing that little pee shooter can kill is either a mouse or a rat
One thousand, five hundred and fifty-second.
What do people get out of this exactly?
The same murky satisfaction they get from unlocking meaningless video game achievements.
Indeed it is a thing, there are games with hundreds or thousands of "achievements" that you get for doing things like loading the game and walking three steps. What I find really unbelievable is that people pay actual money for that experience. Kinda seems like paying someone to tell you that you're a nice guy, but what do I know?
48,177th myself! what do I win?
Free egg roll !
Would be more affective to throw it at your assailant than actually firing it
This 22 would be considered weak by today's standards of 22lr but if you poke a hole in the right spot it will kill someone. I don't think my little NAA 22wmr has to worry about being replaced by something like this, lol
it's not small. my girlfriend says it's 'just right'
Ian McCollum is. THE FORGOTTEN WEAPON.
Poor guys legacy gun looks like a toy for a little kid. Smh
4th
13th?
9th
Fourth!
First