Jumpseating Pilot Attempts to Shutdown Engines on Horizon Air Flight
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- Опубликовано: 23 окт 2023
- TBear joins Gonky and Mover to discuss recent news of a jumpseating Alaska Airlines pilot who attempted to shut the engines down in flight on a Horizon Airlines EMB-175. TBear (Former A-10 and F-16 pilot and current AG Pilot) joins Mover and Gonky. Every Monday at 8PM ET, Mover (F-16, F/A-18, T-38, 737, helicopter pilot, author, cop, and wanna be race car driver) and Gonky (F/A-18, T-38, A320, dirt bike racer, author, and awesome dad) discuss everything from aviation to racing to life and anything in between.
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The appearance of U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) visual information does not imply or constitute DoD endorsement.
Views presented are my own and do not represent the views of DoD or its Components.
You know what's really, REALLY lucky about this? That he did it when he was jumpseating rather than actually flying the plane! This is why mental health matters, glad you guys talk about it.
He probably thought that the psychedelics he took would wear off by the time he was scheduled to be in command.
Oh good. Now the FAA has an excuse to provide even more regulations that don't necessarily improve safety.
And this is why we can't allow the airlines find a way to institute single pilot operations.
ABC news reported just a few minutes ago that the guy allegedly had not slept for over 40 hours and had consumed "psychedelic drugs", and was also suffering from other mental distress. Glad the pilots were able to subdue the guy and land safely.
When I was in the Air Force, an intrusive thought was called a "Dumb Ass Attack." Perhaps they ought to develop a medical equivalent to the NASA reporting system?
As long as airline pilots aren’t allowed to seek mental health treatment due to strict FAA rules, this will be an ongoing risk.
Controllers too
Yup the threat of job loss keeps ppl quiet and its not good
So you know for sure he didn’t seek help?
@@Cleared_To_Land Considering how the FAA makes it almost impossible to hold a first class medical if they know one has a history of mental health issues, I could almost guarantee that he never sought help.
@@videogameplayer0552how many airlines have you worked for? Are you a pilot?
Those three pilots probably all understood every word ATC said during that conversation.
Yeah, also maybe some hardcore avgeeks. ;)
Very humane and respectful discussion. He knew he was in trouble, but a limited amount that he could do about it. The plane made it down and everyone lived. Flight and Cabin crew deserve great respect.
The issue here is how do you identify a "crew member" that is compelled to harm others
It’s easy, when you see a crew member who is trying to hurt people. That’s the one.
Eye twitch.
Thank you, You alll provided a better explanation that the mainstream news,
I hope that rather than just treating the symptoms (canceling jump seats or more security measures) more efforts are made to give personnel the means to get better rather than hide it until it reaches critical. Reading the commentary on the story so far is not encouraging.
I understand this guy was on his way to work; good that this happened in a cockpit where he could be constrained, and the problem remedied, than for him to have reached work and actually sit behind the controls of an aircraft.
That should settle the debate about flying airliners single pilot.
I’d also heard that it wasn’t the throttles he was messing with. I’d heard he was trying to pull the fire bottles on the engines.
I’ve done a lot of 135 and pilot service. Always wondered how I would handle the 250 pound guy next to me if he went crazy.
Please keep TBear on! If Gonky leaves and Wombat is hit or miss, he would be awesome to have back. I used to fly ag. I love seeing a military pilots perspective on ag that was also a Hog pilot. That guy is great dude.
If anything, this is a reason to have jumpseaters. Imagine if he had tried this while he was an acting crew member.
Thank you for lifting the issue of mental health Mover! I think it’s important that we as a society can talk about that and try to help as many people as we can. Both in aviation and other industries too! Much love! ❤
Similar thing happened about, oh, 2010-ish: Think the airlines was Citrus (been a while). Co-pilot called saying, in effect, "...I've locked the captain out of the cockpit...request emergency divert to KAMA...". Seems the left-seater was having a _really_ bad day
more people in jump seats have saved planes than have attempted to take them down.
This needs to be repeated everywhere.
Horizon Air needs a new HR department.
First they had the ground handler stealing the plane in 2018 to unalive himself and now THIS GUY. What a mad man.
He doesn’t work for them.
He left Horizon for Alaska in 2016. But I guess they give Alaska pilots access to jump seats and vice versa.
I was just making a joke to be honest. I'm glad the crew were able to subdue him. @@ypw510
I was just making a joke in poor taste. Alaska owns Horizon right? @@CWLemoine
Seems like it must have been an impulse thing of some sort, if it was a premeditated pilot suicide type thing you think he would have waited until he was on a flight where he was actually active crew.
I personally suspect psychosis brought on by exhaustion.
They have mandatory lay overs and rest when a pilot is flying, not for jumpseaters
I love this show
I want to hear the CVR on this one.
Shite, that was probably near overhead, for me, at the time... wasn't that an Alaskan/Horizon (maybe Dash-9) that a KSEA ramp personal absconded with, and crashed it, after some acrobatic maneuvers (suicide)... still watching... I watched one of the ATC replays, this morning... thanks for this discussion @C.W. Lemoine (and company)!...
absolutely crazy
intrusive thought #1 on the F-16: open the "rescue" flipper door, grab the lanyard, start running, & launch that canopy! but i never do & never will.
When I saw that on my Instagram feed, I thought to myself "why do they talk about the FedEx incident? It was so long ago!?!" 🤔
I do wonder what their glide and land options would have been if he was successful.
Sadly there was also the GermanWings flight back in 2015 where the copilot used the security features on the cockpit door to lock the pilot out when he went to use the bathroom and crashed the plane with no survivors. Sadly all this will probably continue to enhance the perverse incentives that prevent pilots from getting mental health treatment. I whine about it way to much but I haven't flown just as a private pilot in years due to said policies but in all these cases if the individual in question had taken time off but kept their license and medical it all could have been avoided.
True, but that was the FO not a jumpseater.
It makes me sick to this day. If I recall, the jet was full of German teens coming home from exchange school in Spain. I remember reading the other pilot tried everything possible to get in.
In a weird way, it kinda worked out. If he was the pilot incharge of the plane like he would have been in a few hours, it likely would have worked. Could have just waited for his co pilot to go to the bathroom. Maybe this was the cry for help
Wow, makes one wonder what this guy was going through to do that, thank you Mover for giving us the info on this one, and glad to meet TBear hope to see more of him.
He had taken pschycodelic mushrooms before he boarded. Why, I have no idea.
WOW, that is horrible, thank you for the info.@@chipsdad5861
push in the fire handle opens hyd and fuel valves, popping the bottle has no effect on the engine unless the fire is on the outside of the core
Here's a quote from an SF Chronicle article today. The claim was that he might have been on psychedelic mushrooms to self-medicate due to depression.
********
According to federal officials, Emerson said, “Yah …I pulled both emergency shut off handles because I thought I was dreaming and I just wanna wake up.”
Actually this happen before with a Fed-x airlines in Memphis TN. Where the jump seat person tried to kill the two pilots and the engineer with the use of a Hammer.
Why “actually” when we literally talked about that very incident? 🤔
This kind of bring up a question I have. What ever happened to the Federal flight Deck officer program? That allowed pilots to be armed?
Still exists.
The mental health stigma in the US has to go. Mental health is no different that physical health. If you tear a ligament in your ankle, do you go to the doctor immediately, or wait until it progresses into an ankle/knee/back/neck problem and you can't even walk!? I have never served but I have no problem with someone coming back from war saying they saw something terrible, or they had to do something terrible to save their brothers in arms and it affected them mentally. I AM worried about the person that went to war and came back and said they are totally fine. Maybe they had an easy trip, but they are probably lying. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH SEEKING HELP FOR THINGS THAT ARE AFFECTING YOU MENTALLY!
The latest rumor is that the CA and JS were fighting and the fire warning test switch was hit during the fight. Apparently the fight had something to do with the JS and CA and CA's wife / gf.
I'm not surprised to hear that FAA medical story. A couple years ago the AOPA did a survey and concluded that around half of American pilots lie to the FAA about their medical history because of fear of the FAA medical bureaucrats. Rumor has it the entire FAA psychological staff is just 3 doctors who are all still stuck in the 1960s -- something that jives *very* well with this story about PTSD. The FAA is the number one source of pilot medical problems, as far as I can figure from the outside.
It’s about the chaos to come
It appeases that he was tripping on shrooms
The fact of the matter is that as long as there are people in the cockpit (pilots, jumpseaters etc), there will always be a risk that someone does something like this. We will NEVER remove that risk entirely unless the airplane is 100% automatic, though that would come at the price of introducing other types of risks instead.
Tougher screening before getting your medical could help to some degree and adding more ways of getting help with mental health issues that do not put you at risk of unnecessarily losing your medical and your job could also help. However, nothing except removing all people from the cockpit will ever remove this particular risk so at some point we're going to have to accept that reality.
Drives me crazy how little media knows, they dont seem to be able to understand fire extinguishing jet enfgines would be BAD. As its 1 way you may not be able to restart. Yeah that fedex flight that those guys fought yrs ago was WAYY crazier than this event
…or like the Instructor pulling the mixture out? “Simulated engine failure”. “Simulated engine repair”
And now we found out he was severely sleep deprived and took ‘shrooms within the last couple days. And after he got brought back into the cockpit, tried to pull the handle on one of the doors while the aircraft was still in the air.
Right in-to THE DANGER ZONE!
*"An off-duty pilot charged with trying to disable the engines of an Alaska Airlines jet in flight told police afterward he was suffering a nervous breakdown, had taken psychedelic mushrooms two days earlier and had not slept in 40 hours, court documents showed."* - _Reuters_
There is a huge stigma to mental health care in this country that affects pilots, police, firefighters, EMS, and physicians and nurses. None of those professions have adequate access to mental health care and there is a tremendous fear (sadly not without basis) of negative repercussions against your license. There are far too few therapists and far too little will to provide adequate funding so that we can have more people available to provide mental health care to those who need it most and to do so without punishing those who ask for the help they realize they need.
I read yesterday that psychedelic mushrooms were involved, and he was tripping out. He thought he was saving the plane. I know that's kind of. He said she said, but it would make more sense than what was initially presented
Tried to pull the fire handles. They probably shoved them back in before the engines shutdown…it doesn’t shut them down immediately.
Apparently the perp had consumed mushrooms 48 hours prior, hadn't been sleeping and despite seeming normal at first and not giving any indication that something was wrong (he even engaged in some small talk) he was actually on the verge of a mental breakdown. He claimed it was his first time doing shrooms and that it was an attempt at self medicating for some recent personal tragedy/heart break he'd gone through.
From what I heard, this person had a very acute mental/emotional breakdown due to the recent death of someone close. *edit since the last half of the video discusses it. He probably hid it because he didn't want to get grounded.
Food for thought regarding Horizon flight… What are the other things that could’ve happened? We know the reports of the jump seater pulling the extinguishers but is it impossible it’s something completely different?
Just saying, this would be a very cunning and unique way to setup a disliked employee. You and your partner just plan this out. Maybe they have a sign and they both create a wrestling around sound. One yells out, “Don’t touch that. You’ll kill us.” Then you can both “subdue him” and “put him in cuffs in the back jumpseat”. Just saying everything isn’t always what it seems. And going solely off of witness statements and audio, can be a hindrance and a road block for potential undiscovered possibilities. Listen to the video again while trying to keep an open mind about. It changes the way you hear things based on the narrative provided.
Note: I don’t know if this is the case here. And hopefully there’s video of the event taking place inside the cockpit. I just bring this up because we as humans are easily misled especially with stories like this popping up before investigations are completed.
Speaking to the psychosis issue. I doubt he was even thinking about everyone else on the plane. He was thinking of unaliving himself (hate having to use the term) and everyone else on the plane were not even in his mind.
Yea, that’s basically what the germanwings pilot experienced as well.
Is the fire T-handle terminal for the engine? No recovery?
Everything is reconnected when you push it back in (sts).
@@CWLemoine Unless that fire handle also disconnects the Idg, which provides electricity to the corresponding bus. Once an IDG is disconnected, it needs to be manually reset on the ground with the engine not running. The fire handles usually shut off hydraulic pumps, although there are also electrically driven pumps for each system. I'm not really familiar with Embraer. I deal with Boeing and Airbus.
It's often treated as a "No go" option.
You have limited fire suppression charge, its assumed in a real fire that there is a sizable chance of the fire reigniting when you cycle an engine back up.
That's why Fire, FOD or Frozen you leave it dead
I think you guys missed another possible reason, and I think it's also quite likely... In fact, I think it was involved in the P3 the pulled 7 g's a few years ago...
A few people talking about this and that, and someone says something along the lines of "it isn't THAT hard to do X" and the guy in the back says "oh yeah, then what about THIS" and kills the engines.
I have no evidence to support either circumstance, however I feel confident we can all agree there can be some egos in those cockpits.
No. The FBI already interviewed him, where he said he had ingesting magic mushrooms and that he thought he was in a dream and that he could wake up from the dream by shutting down the engines. Basically - he was trippin’.
@@ypw510 Thanks for the reply.
So he was tripping balls on his way to work.
Can't make that shit up really.
Surprised they didnt get fighter pilot escort to landing...
The Pilot Attacking (PA) admitted to having used “magic mushrooms” two days before and hadn’t slept in 40 hours and was having a “nervous breakdown”. He was tripping balls. So there’s the proximal cause but we’ll find out later what else was wrong.
This is why we can't have nice stuff.
I'm sure the result of this is no more jumpseating for anyone.
I hope not!
That would be pretty stupid as this could have, and would have, been worse if the guy was flying. Seems like better mental health screening and programs that help rather than punish are the answer. Pretty much exactly what the guys said.
I would remind everyone that there have been numerous cases where a jumpseater actually came forward a assisted the crew in saving the plane.
@@nonamesplease6288 Yes, but sadly it takes just one bad apple to ruin it for everyone. Let's hope the FAA doesn't make this into a jumpseating issue, like I'm afraid they're gonna do.
@@davidsmith8997 I agree
The FAA doesn't allow SSRIs and those sort of meds for pilots. The hoops to jump through for those that need medication for anxiety & depression makes it nearly impossible for pilots that could benefit from them. From what I have read, most pilots will abandon those treatments due the FAA stance on them. The FAA seems to want depressed and anxious pilots instead!
Controllers too
No it has to do with how altitude affects your body's reaction to substances. For example it is much easier to get drunk at altitude than on the ground. There is a risk of negative side effects being triggered which is obviously very bad when you are flying. That is why they want you to be straight as a razor.
The reality is there are standards for aviation because they are written in blood. As a result there is going to be people who are either through no fault of their own, or by their own fault not allowed to work in aviation.
While that might be tragic in some cases there is no margin for error the risk is unacceptable.
Nerdy pilot, not true. Yes feds make it difficult to fly on an SSRI but there are many pilots doing it now. A few years ago they provided a path for folks with these issues to retain their medical. But aren’t you glad the path is more difficult?
Clearly, we need to ban fire handles
Everyone saying jumpseating is going away is overreacting, especially at this stage.
I'm sure every airline pilot after hearing about this incident will feel warm and fuzzy... just an occasional look over the shoulder 🤥. These pilots were lucky this psycho didn't try to extinguish them before the motors...
pilots are very reluctant to seek mental health help due to fears of losing their medical certificate.
The FAA needs to base their policy on input from mental health experts and not just "knee jerk" issue a new mental health policy. As Mover said, we need to encourage people to seek help for problems and not punish them for seeking help.
Thissss is a certified sHrO o m S
Moment xD
Juan Brown at Blanco lario said that the dude was sufferings from some mental disorders, and was under the influence of psychedelic mushrooms.
Hasn’t Malaysia flight 370 been considered as a potential ‘suicide/pilot’ scenario? I guess we’ll never know now..
I understand mental health issues, but why do these guys decide to end their lives taking innocent people with them?!
I heard he was on shrooms.
Get people help, fix the mental issues, without fear of loosing the job forever.
166 felonies 😂
Wasn't there a German pilot that was going down hill.
Germanwings, but it was a pilot flying, not a jumpseater.
I think this is a marketing stunt to promote the brand of the mushrooms he consumed…besides making you suicidal, it sounds like some good sh..t! 😂🤘
Interesting, the accused claimed he was under the influence of 'shrooms.
I want to go in a hot air balloon ride with this guy.
He was just trying to save on fuel, give the guy a break!
Still crazy to me that people will become qualified enough just to commit terroristic acts or throw away all that they have to commit them. A shame this could likely ruin jumpseating for the average joe.
Idk, I get that pilots need to get to work, but maybe just save a seat in the back. However, I'm glad it was the deadhead that tried it and not the Captain/1ofc. 2V1 is better than 1V1.
The guy was a captain for Alaska Airlines. "Save a seat in the back" has nothing to do with this. He could've just as easily done it on his next flight.
@CWLemoine I'd be interested if you could reach out for a collab with Mentour Pilot on this.
He usually won't comment without an incident report.
I'd be especially interested as I know he's referenced mandatory rest before flights where you are Active flight crew - this doesn't apply to jump seaters though
How many legs was he being pressed into to make it for the flight?
The rumor is this guy consumed psychedelic mushrooms prior flight.
I don't know, like it or not, sooner or later AI will be part of our daily lives. AI - Sorry Dave, "the engines are not on fire", request denied.
Dude was on mushrooms!
Gentlemen we do not know the persons mental state? Triggers?
Psilocybin take the wheel!
Shrooms.. 🍄 🍄 🍄
Key word " San Francisco" you know it's trouble 😵💫
Cant "attempted murder" yourself can you ? It would be attempted suicide.
If someone dies in as a result of another crime it is treated as a Felony Murder
Eg if someone is run over as you flee a robbery it's a murder, as it was a death caused by a knowing crime
In this case the suicide would be treated as murder, due to the fact its a knowing crime in the same way
I'm hearing from several reputable sources he was a Hamas sleeper operative. Huge if true.
Jumpseating is going away soon.
Turns out this guy had taken psychedelic mushrooms and was likely having a "bad trip". Don't do drugs.
Pull the cockpit voice recorder and we’ll know what happened in there😒. We won’t hear the jump seater obviously, but we’ll know what was going on. I think they set him up and lied on him because they were jealous of him for some reason.
I doubt that very much, he was a pilot of a different airline and has had a recent death in the family from what I've heard
Look it up. He had admitted to the whole situation. Sounds like a mental break/and potentially some mushrooms and lack of sleep.
He pulled the handles they struggled, he kinda snapped out of it and they kicked him out or cockpit and he agreed. So he walked to the back of the plane. There he requested to be handcuffed so he couldn't do anything more and even after that he tried a couple times to open the emergency exit.
I've got a feeling that this will turn out to be a nothing-burger. No way anyone is stupid enough to actually do this. Must have been a joke or something - no way he could have been stopped had he really wanted to pull those levers.
He did pull though.
1 man who wants to die vs 2 men fighting for their lives not to die
Seems like more than even odds
…well, that thick door didn’t work.
Why would it? Completely irrelevant to this case.
Listen to the video. The obvious answer awaits you.
He was already in the cockpit. That's where the jump seat is ...
I took the comment as a joke
Another thing about aviation, it’s a male dominated profession. And what do we do as men when we’re having a rough time? We try and tough it out instead of getting the help we need.
Was he covid vaccinated?
No offense intended but it sounds like you guys have a lot less information than the other channels I've already watched yesterday
I wish this man had seen a few of your blogs re Mental Health. Maybe it might have slowed his roll knowing that he’s not alone with these feelings in your profession. I just feel horrible for the man. Nothing but empathy.
Apparently he was tripping on mushrooms.
MOVER, sir, have you and Gonky done a show regarding those, seemingly credible, recent sightings by Navy jet fighter pilots off the US southwestern coast near San Diego? If not, please report to us what you find IF you investigate! I am a deep fan of your youtube podcast/show "Mover Ruins Movies!" I enjoy Gonky as well... thank you, arthur b (Ngai)
He was on mushrooms