Hi Kelvin, I love the information, and the way you come across, you get the point out in a way people want to listen. And the Amplifier/Speaker combo is the key. Thanks for been a good teacher & having a "pleasant Rant" to get the point across. I was a teenager in the 90s, so 50w Amplifiers & floor standing speakers 100ish w handing seemed to work for years. As time goes on I changed houses, Rooms, music tastes. That all has an impact on witch hifi to use as you said. But likeing music from Don Williams - Queen - Motorhead...so on, getting a system that plays them all to your ears is another thing! 😄 haha!!! Cheers For Reading this. I Subscribed to you. Have a Good Christmas, 🍻 Cheers Grant, West Yorkshire 👍.
I'm late to the party but this is a great video, thanks for making it. I ended up getting a Vista Audio Spark 2 (20 WPC) for my Elac Debut 5.2's and I was initially worried that it wouldn't be enough power. However, I was quite surprised when I plugged my Schiit Modi Multibit 2 into the Spark, hit play on the CD player and turned the volume to 9 o'clock on the Spark. It was actually extremely loud and when I turned it halfway, it was so loud that I had to back away from the speakers and go to the other side of the room. A lot of people dissed the Spark for being "low power" but that was not my experience at all! Nice channel, subscribed!
We are going round and round in circles, these discussions where already there 40 years ago. But it is good to hear this again from somebody who has been involved with it for this long.
Hugo I’m going to make a prediction here and now to you just because I have to say this What’s going to happen is manufacturers are going to come out with thin-walled speakers that are very sensitive and low power amplifiers And they’re gonna say it’s a new brilliant idea. I think this might happen because it will also save them a lot of money which is their major concern. Thanks K
Another enjoyable and informative video Kevin. Because of your review that I got myself the Sansui AU-101, and you are right, this 15 watts Sansui sounds just delightful. No problem whatsoever driving my different bookshelf speakers (they are not hard to push anyway) compare to my other amps with 30-40 watts in a small room. I came to realise and appreciate that room size and gears matching are more important than just watts. My late father has a mono Sansui PM880 valve receiver (manufactured in 1958 but no info on wattage) which can fill up the living room with ease with a three way speakers which consist of a 12 inch woofer. Just got it serviced after staying dormant for almost 40 years. Can't wait to test it out. Thank you once again for this great review.
@@aihuateoh3447 I believe that the reason Sansui receivers from early 70s sound so good is that their engineers used the voice of their tube amps as a guide. Good luck.
Well done, glad I subscribed. Extra watts are nice to have for the added Headroom . And of course they need to be clean Watts . 30 watts of clean power sounds better than 500 watts of flea market power, learned that a long time ago. I think it is better to have too many watts than not enough. Speaker damage can occur whenever the amplifier is asked to play louder then it can handle.
Good point. I have some vintage Bang & Olufsen Beovox (1971) 15w, and have been running 150- 300 watts to them through a NAD amp. No issues, sound amazing. Been doing this for over 30 years. Of course I never go above half volume either.
@@stereoreviewx Thanks Kelvin, did not want to offend. I know some people take it personally, but like you never worried me. Have a nice Christmas & New Year, long may the music play.
Cheers Michael and Kelvin , you both of you are doing excellent work for newbies like me , I think everyone all your subscribers appreciate your approach to Vintage Hifi stuff .
thanks for bringing some common sense back into audio- I wish a lot of younger folks would listen to what u have to say. I have a friend that recently bought a big Mcintosch and he spent a lot of money on it, and he is puzzled as to why it does not sound as good as the Creek amp that he wanted to replace. Big watts-Big money does not always equal great sound.
I have a Crest 300wpc amp in my place. No fans. I run it with the gain knobs way down, keep it in class A and it sounds really good no matter the speaker.
In the 1970 's I seem to remember power output was often quoted as Say 25 watts RMS and sometimes 25 watts peak. 25watts RMS was about 40 watts peak peak.
How right you are (as always). Here I am, late in my office at work, alone (no wife/kid=music). My little 15-watt amp driving two Beovox CX50. Plenty of nice sounding volume !
Excellent video, as usual. My listening room is just shy of 25 square meter and my 20 wpc Pioner SX550 has more than enough power to feed the RP-600M speakers, the volume knob it rarely needed above 4-5.
Couldn't agree more, Kelvin! To this day the receiver wars of the late 70s have a lot to answer for - American audiophiles in particular seem to think that anything under 100W is 'mid-fi'. I have amps rated from 18W to 80W, driving fairly inefficient speakers in a smallish room, and the amp power rating makes no difference whatsoever. Even in my living room, a 38W Luxman L-113A driving Monitor Audio MA16 speakers could fill the room nicely at around 10 o'clock on the volume dial. The great leveller in vintage amps is headphone listening, where the power rating of the amp makes no difference!
I have a Luxman L210 (about 2 X 50W) paired with vintage Magnat Pro-15 speakers, The combination cost me less than 300 Euro and it goes much louder than my room (and neighbors) can handle. And it sounds musical.
I have numerous integrated and power amps rated from 12W to 140W, they all will drive any speakers I own to neighbour annoying levels. In fact one power amp I own has VU metres and I was surprised to see that even at quite loud volumes I rarely went over 0.5 to 1 watt with quite sensitive speakers. It was quite surprising to me that you see all these amps with huge power ratings and most people will rarely get past probably 5 watts of the output. I mean I have a QUAD 520C which literally was used in a cinema so if it can power a cinema at a high volume I’m certain I will never get near its peak output.
My Amp in my home studio is an old Denon PMA 100m. I got it new ex stock a few years back for very cheap. Only 65 watts RMS per channel, but by gee is it loud. The sound feels so powerful and has great clarity. So its definitely not always about more power is better.
My everyday listen is an old Cossor valve radio I restored and added a Bluetooth adapter to so I can listen to a majestic one and a half single ended mono valve watts from my phone. Surprisingly loud due to the high efficiency speaker. Very good with old school ska and reggae, bass doesn't go low but it's there and tight, trebles sweet and vocals come over well. Spoken word was slightly unnerving tho cos it sounded like the speaker was in the room. I'd like to get another so I can try to them in stereo. Makes one want to try a stereo valve amp!
I dont mean to be so off topic but does any of you know a trick to log back into an instagram account..? I stupidly lost the password. I would appreciate any help you can give me
@Reece Kairo I really appreciate your reply. I got to the site thru google and im trying it out now. I see it takes quite some time so I will reply here later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
Great Explanation Kelvin, I to was sucked into the big power trap with a massive Yamaha power amp, with the speakers I was using at my normal listening levels the meter's rarely peaked above 5watts. This also did not make them any more enjoyable, needless to say its long gone now & an expensive lesson learned. Which is the favoured amp with the LS 35A you were talking about .
That’s a big reason I run klipsch speakers super easy to drive I like headroom is the only why I have a 225 wpc integrated amplifier plus when bass heavy tracks are on the amp just breezes. However I would like to own a prima Luna tube integrated amp. I have a sansui model 250 that needs restoring and a 890.
Really good video lot of information that are very true. I watched his review of DM4 and started watching other videos, they are very accurate, overall a good tips specially for new people coming into hi-fi world. What is important is that everything he said is true. I assume he has lot of experience with hifi so he like to share it with wider public. Amazing videos and way you are approaching to explain some components, I realy like it.
I have small speakers now, 50 cm height barely and a 60 watt amp and it sounds great and really loud in a normal 25 /30 m2 living room. The speakers have a flat frequency output and the amp in nice, clear and detailed. I almost never go halfway the volume, it is really really loud then already.
Hi, You mentioned several times you like listening to percussion and the drums in music. I just wanted to recommend Santana’s Caravanserai and Santana 3 for your listening pleasure. Hope you like them. Happy listening! Cheers and thanks for your reviews.
Having now watched your video,if I may comment again. You are correct in saying-high sensitivity is the thing you need for a low power amp but there is still no sacrafice for power. TRY THIS.get a very big Amp 200 and put a 50w speaker on it..then try a 50w Amp.You should here the difference even at low vol.
Yes I would say the difference I know what you’re saying and in the regard you’re saying that you’re right I would also want to put in the equation to the speaker sound good with that much power does the room work with that much power there is a lot of additional let’s say travel that could come with high power I should say I’m beginning to think and this isn’t a boast but I’m beginning to think I’m some kind of purist I don’t want anything to be not correct in scale or articulacy and the only way to do that is to not have it too loud Appreciate your comments cheers K
one thing i found is with my B&W dm602s when i had my old naim nait5i my naim was rated 50 watts but it powered my 602s nicely but when you got to about 10 oclock on the dial it sort of sounded the amp was running out of puff but i then switched to a yamaha ax396 it seemed my dm602s just got more livlier to listen to and more energised
@@sloveloguy I have listened to all 3 and found out the 6,2 and reference sounded about the same to me and unfi 2.0 with good highs but didn’t feel the bass from them so I stuck with 6.2 with the walnut cabinet and plus $300 cheaper than the other two
I have a quite large room 7m x 6m and using large speakers, the VU on the amp is indicating < 1 watt. When playing very loud < 3 watt. Sensitivity speakers are 89dB... never understood the power rush, look at first watt amplifiers....
Great video again, i have a Sansui 441 receiver which has taken pride of place amongst my other Amps and sounds beautiful through my three way open baffles, delivers a rich and open sound especially with vinyl. No matter whether i use the open baffles, Mordaunt Short Ms400 and one off the hifi bargains of all time, a mint pair of JPW Sonatas, the little Sansui Delivers. Kelvin your approach concerning HIFI is a breathe of fresh air. Keep the Vids coming.
@@stereoreviewx Quite right Kelvin. in my spare time i set up Turntables and systems for friends and trying to explain to them that a good set up and platform is essential for optimum results with turntables is a must and not to listen to the nonsense on youtube etc etc is hard going but when they hear the results it makes my day. Kelvin I'm going to give you a turntable recommendation if you ever see a Sony PS-X600 Biotrace turntable for sale buy it. In my humble opinion its better than my Ariston RD11S and STd 305M turntables, and is happy playing high quality moving coil Cartridges in fact it can accommodate almost any cartridge whether it be MM/MC. Regards Anthony.
The relationship between speaker efficiency, low end extension (freq response, particularly bass frequencies), and speaker/enclosure size is summed up by "Hoffman's Iron Law": You can have great frequency response, low power usage, or small speaker box size. . . . *pick any two*. Obviously they're not going to leave out great frequency response, so the variables are speaker size and power consumption.
Yes. That is definitely one of the major trade offs. But then speakers are inherently a ruddy great boatload of trade offs. Quality, strong, stiff, dead and aesthetically pleasing cabinets cost, and it's times two. It also scales badly for the wallet. Not too great for transport either. With the advent of reasonably priced transistor based amplification, speakers were inevitably going to get smaller. But now with all this experience under the belt, it becomes easier to make the best compromises and get bloody fabulous sound, for even reasonable amounts of cash. Especially if one is extra canny and researches thoroughly. Though I still prefer a slimmish floorstander as the best compromise. BTW. Class D is now becoming very interesting too in the past few years. It is looking like there have been some breakthroughs that have thrown up some bloody impressive amps.
True , if you can find go for a electro companiet ,their first amp 25watts classA....amazing it blewe away the sansui 100watts , it was like the sansui distorted aswell mc intosh integrated ,i could hear lots of distortion in comparison of the companiet of Mati Otala...
Many years ago at a Hi-Fi exhibition I had a conversation with Jim Rogers, an audio pioneer and of JR 149 fame ( LS 35a clone, same drivers slightly different crossover ), he told me the 149 and the 35a needed a minimum of about 35 watts 50 watts being preferable more if you wanted to avoid running the amp into peak distortion and frying the T27 tweeter. That does not mean huge volume levels it means having the headroom to deliver a peak power requirement momentarily without running into distortion, the death nell for tweeters. It is surprising how much power is needed even at modest levels to hit a peak cleanly when driving a fairly difficult load
I knew Jim, was a great guy and his knowledge of Hi Fi was incredible. I still have some speakers made from units recommended by him and supplied by him. That would be about 1968. EMI 13"x8" with massive magnet, plus Celestion HF1300 and STC (now Coles) 4001G. I built those speakers and they were very good. Soon after, B&W brought out the DM3 which was almost the same. My speakers still work and sound excellent.
Yes well I don’t really wanna argue with Jim Rogers ,but . Well I’m just loving the LS35A is with the 15 what Sansui or even the 12 what Sansui receiver it just sounds so good and the bass just feels a bit clogged with more power. Now I’m not super technical person but my impression is that Sansui is have the headroom for peaks is kind of why I like them . Thanks For the feedback though great story all information is good when I fry my tweeters I will know why. Cheers K
@@Radfordperson Hi, casting my memory back again I think I remember a friend of mine at the time building virtually the same thing. He used an EMI bass driver and the Celestion but wasn't really happy so after a few phone calls rebuilt them with the addition of the 4001 ( super tweeter?). I can't remember what he did with the crossover, I didn't know about the DM3s close relationship. Thanks for the reply please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about the 4001 being a super tweeter it was 50 years ago afterall
@@rayfordham9230 Hi Ray, yes, the 4001G is a supertweeter. The main difference between my home constructed speakers and the B&W DM3's, is that mine use the Celestion HF1300, the DM3's use the HF1400. The 1400 is just a 1300 with a slightly larger magnet. Back to Jim Rogers, I used to get some of his prototype speakers for home trial, not one was bad. I was particularly impressed by his Wafer speakers, so much so, I built clones of them.
@@Radfordperson Hi' me and my friend went to a Hi-Fi exhibition in a hotel at Heathrow, It was when the JR 149 came out so a few years later. We headed for the JR room as I was interested in the 149s ( which I bought some weeks later), that was where I discussing power requirements with Mr Rogers as per my original post, when I had finished I took a closer look at the speakers leaving my friend and Mr Rogers heads down over a table, my friend came away grinning from ear to ear Mr Rogers had drawn two crossover diagrams on a hotel menu for him to try in his speakers to integrate the two tweeters better. A very nice man. I really envy you getting access to that equipment back then, and then building your own version. I couldn't afford to do such things having been recently married, buying a house and everything that entails. I had to make a very long distance call to check my facts, we are both now in our 70s but I got there in the end. Thanks for the chat, yet again I've proved your never to old to learn.
Kelvin, great video. Keep them coming! I like all amps of all power levels. I’ve got a few low powered receivers and a few high powered amps. I agree, Sensitivity is the key I think. I’ve got one system with a Sansui 5000 from 1970 55W and original Large Advents. Those speakers aren’t efficient but I don’t know what they were rated. They have a 12” sealed woofer (no ports) and need those 55W for the bass to come alive. When it does, it’s amazing. I have another setup with a Sherwood 7100-a 12W also 1970. It’s pushing moderately efficient 88db Wharfedale Diamond 230 and they sound great.
I’m the second owner so I don’t know definitely but I found this at classicreceivers.com.... Here we have the Sansui 5000x receiver. It was produced in the early 70’s and was a very popular unit. It puts out 55 watts per channel and weighs in at around 40 pounds.... This one has no x designation it’s just a 5000 so this might not be totally accurate.
I recall Nelson Pass said in relation to his First Watt amp: it's about the quality of the first few watts. And I'm not entirely sure why, but amps with smaller wattage somehow manage to deliver that intimate magic within the confines of those humble watts - something most amps with megawatts fail to achieve; perhaps it's to do with amp design in general? I can't put my finger on it as I'm not a technician but my ears say so.
Yes I understand what you’re saying and I think you’re right No idea what the technical explanation would be Maybe we’re are just missing a new technical analysis K
Hi pal. Love you videos and appreciate you rich experience with vintage stuff. In your video's you've featured an Arcam Alpha Cd Player. Which model is it as I'm thinking of getting one purely based on your comments of it thanks
It also depends on the speaker "efficiency" and power handling capability. I remember many years ago I upgraded my power-amp from 60w/ch to 200w/ch. The difference was quite remarkable. More recently however, I find that having "distributed" power over several lower power amps yields better results than just using "brute force power" into two cabinets. In today's world..the only speakers than really need serious power are subs of 10 inches or greater. The point is..If you can bi-amp (or tri-amp) your system with multiple medium power (50-100 w/ch) amps...DO IT.
Hi can you please explain what a pre amp is and why you need it cheers. Ijust use a old 90s sony amp. Fantastic sound with plenty punch on my kef coda 8 s
Very interesting Video, I bought a Yamaha CR-420 in great mint condition, it has 2x30 Watt. My Room is 5x4meters, can you commend me some good vintage Speakers for the Yamaha ? Thanks Tom
A question about wats and ohms. If i have speakers, let´s say Magnat Supreme Monitor 1002: Magnat Monitor Supreme II Resilience music (max.) 380 W Resilience Sinus 190 W Frequency (min.) 19 Hz Frequency (max.) 40000 Hz Frequency range 19 Hz - 40000 Hz Impedance 4 - 8 Ω Sound pressure 92 dB. Having that information and if I plug a 200 Watts amplifier, RMS and from 4 - 8 Ohms. Then I have a question at wich level of Ohms will be conected the amplifier to the speakers.? By conecting the Speakers to an amplifiers is the result of the Ohms of every speaker the same or lower. As I understand and with the info giving for the Magnat ones, at 4 ohm will be 380 watts and at 8 ohm will be 190 ohms. Is it ok or am I confusing how that works.? Thanks in avance.
it all started in 80's; cheap plastic, a lot of watts, big numbers, flashy colors.. in 70's you had 50w speakers with 30w amp and you got a powerful system. today people laugh at those numbers but hey.. my philips 457's still sound amazing :)
@@hugobloemers4425 I heard that many times, that's why I grabbed them. they are extreeemly musical, not the best by modern standards, far from it, but they sing like a bird in the spring field covered with fresh flowers lol
"Hoffman's Iron Law" "You can have low end extension, high efficiency, or small enclosure size. Pick two." In the 70s they went with the first two, and sold speakers the size of basketballs inside enclosures the size of small dressers or shelves. Later they wanted smaller enclosures to stay competitive in an environment of under-educated customers who were misled by "Bose" small systems simply stating they sound good with enough money behind it. They chose to trade out the efficiency, meaning they HAD to crank up more power to the less efficient speakers.
@@snap-off5383 I was thinking the same thing as I watch this episode. I recall the first time I heard the tiny Bose speakers - the sound out of those little cubes was amazing - when really cranking but if you want to listen to something mellow, the cones are so tight you miss so much. Give me my floppy basketball size, small dresser type speakers any day .. they can handle the mellow times and pump it when needed.
A lot of this is about an amplifiers headroom capability and an amplifiers range of linearity. Often times we only use a handful of watts when listening to our system even at higher volumes. An amplifier’s range of linearity, the range in which its performing cleanly with low distortion, is going to be smaller with a lower watt amp and larger with a higher watt amp. It doesn’t take that many watts to quickly start falling out of the amplifiers linear range. Headroom and the quality of the amplifier when being pushed greatly determines the quality of the sound you get.
Great information sir - so based on my 18 x 25-foot room I'm looking to connect a Marantz Model 1090 Amplifier with a pair of B&W DM2 Mk2 Speakers and a Thorens TD160 turntable. what are your thoughts, please? I'm not getting you to do my setup for me, I just wanted to pick your large audio brain. Best
Nice video as usual, Kelvin, thanks. I see you didn't fall in to the trap of talking about "British" watts v "Japanese" watts 😅 This was a phenomenon first demonstrated by the likes of Naim and really driven home by the famous NAD 3020 which arrived on the scene in 1980 with a gut busting 20wpc. Plenty of amps had high watts RMS into 8 ohm loads but couldn't handle anything except highly efficient speakers. As soon as the impedance dipped down to 4 ohms they lost their mojo. I think the grip the amp has over the speakers has far more impact on the sound quality and in class A and AB amps this means oversized power transformers and smoothing caps, capable of delivering big dollops of current to give transients all the impact you could want. The sound from my main system improved dramatically when I went from a 75wpc amp to a 150wpc amp from the same company. It was nothing to do with the volume, I hasten to add. It had everything to do with the ability of the amp to keep tighter control on the speakers.
Most of the time it’s the first ten watts that are needed for music playback. Beyond that it’s the quality of the watts. Good quality and transparency are a must. Two amplifiers of the same design and different power output will differ because of headroom. We get into trouble on peaks more of the time with a low powered amplifier than a high powered one. The more powerful one will deliver more current and move the drive units more precisely. Sensitive speakers will keep the low powered amplifier out of trouble more of the time and give a similar effect to the high powered amplifier with average to low sensitivity speakers. Powerful amplifiers also give more useable bandwidth to the speakers. Matching the amplifier to your speakers by listening is therefore a must. The amplifiers that can track transients accurately with the speakers you have chosen in the room you are using will get you the possibility of good sound.
I just bought my first vintage stereo receiver 2 days ago. Sansui 6060 in near mint condition for 500 dollars. it’s rated at 40 watts per channel. if these stereos are truly under rated then I’m probably pushing around 50 plus. the room it’s going to be in is only 14 foot long by 12 foot wide lol. I’m hooking it up to Polk Audio Monitor 40 series speakers. hopefully it sounds good.
@@stereoreviewx well I just got it 2 days ago and was finally able to hook it up today. I am floored by how great the sound quality is. I’m impressed by the sound quality so much that I wish I knew what I know now back when I was just a stupid teenager and in my 20’s and most of my 30’s. I’ve got 2500 dollars wrapped up in a modern surround sound setup in my living room. I wish I took that money and spent it on a high end vintage receiver that was built in the 70’s. I’m already thinking about selling it all now and getting as much as I can and go all vintage in my living room. they can take all this digital crap with its fancy surround sound modes and stick it where the sun don’t shine lol. the richness in the sound of this Sansui 6060 hooked up to my Polk Audio Monitor 40 series speakers is just mind blowing. I’m on cloud nine right now lol. this is the happiest I’ve ever been from hearing a stereo receiver. I’ve always been wanting a stereo with rich deep sound and now after all these years I finally have what I’ve been looking for. I’ll never buy anything modern when it comes to receivers ever again. by the way I love your channel. you’re very kind and honest and give great information. have a nice day and god bless.
That’s great to hear my friend so many times people have messaged me they bought Sansui vintage and they just love it. As far as vintage receivers go you probably won’t get much better you’re at the top of the tree nearly. Cheers K
I have have an amplifier rated at 15 Watts per channel and I also have some very old 1970 goodmans speakers rated at 4 ohms but they have a very good sensitivity level 93 DB So you can see there are two things happening here when a speaker is 4 ohms it normally takes more driving but normally can give you more volume when a speaker is a higher sensitivity that's also give you more volume normally it is people buying stuff that either looks good but doesn't sound compatible I always advise people to go and buy speakers with the highest sensitivity they can actually get and also the sound has to be right above the biggest powerful amplifier normally the speakers are the most reliable part of the system anyway if you spend most of your money on your speakers they can actually last you a lifetime if driven properly instead of under driven a speaker likes to be driven I suppose it's like a human getting no exercise at all you will end up in hospital 💪💪🤗🤗
Music has a crest factor. The better the recording, the higher the crest factor. If you like audiophile recordings, than you'll benefit from more power. If you listen at, say 0.5Wrms stereo to a high quality recording with a CF of 20dB, than you need 0.5W* 2speakers*10^2=_100W_ or 2x50W of linear power to reproduce those transients accurately. One reason this may be unnoticed is because microphones compress peaks in bass region, which would otherwise eat up majority of the power. Regardless, most of us just get away with some compression and loss of dynamics. The ones that value dynamics listen to horns anyway. John Meyer has a good research on this. Check out his AES talk on M-noise,
Are Brit living rooms still maxed out at 3 x4 meters these days? Hence the typical Brit hifi and harbeth ls3/5a speaker types. In Europe we have rooms of 5 by 8 meters or more. Big difference, its true. Amazing.
Will running 4 ohm speakers with 6-8 ohm amp really hurt the amp or is it just you won't get the quality of sound? Was given a pair of very old Maggies...
hi, my av sony k990 manual says, it is a 90 watts per channel av and it gives up to 140 watts per speaker. what is the difference of per channel and per speaker?
Finally someone that understands that a good sensitive speaker with a nice tone with a small power will out weigh a big amp with poor tune and big low sensitive speakers The right power and ability to use it properly is the key
Watts really matter at least with Magnepan speakers. Or should i say current. I have two Nad 214 amps in mono producing 500 watts of power in 4 ohms. I would say that is suitable for Magnepans.
Nice video 👍🏼 ....but one question: aren’t the watts of an amp similar to the power of a car engine? I mean if you don’t crank up the volume like a mad man on your powerful amps it doesn’t hurt to have „headroom“ and stable current flow down to little ohms, does it? A car with - let’s say - 500 horsepower can also be driven with slower speed as well as with high speed...if wanted. Given bigger speakers and a medium to bigger sized room
Yes the car analogy is certainly good one but it ain’t perfect ultimately you have to like the sound so you might say ultimately you have to like the look of the car
A few things many people do not understand. 20watts is NOT twice as loud as 10 watts. Turning the volume pot 50% of it's travel is NOT 50% of the available power. Many BBC monitors, LS35A etc are a nominal 15 ohms impedance, with a 25 watt nominal rating. With most transistor (none valve) amplifiers you will need at least 50 watts output to drive the 15 ohm impedance at 25 watts. As the maximum power of ANY amplifier is approached distortion begins to rise until it clips. So by using a more powerful amplifier under most conditions you will never have peaks that approach or entre clipping, keeping the sound always clean and fatigue free. Many amplifiers made for a nominal 8 ohm speaker do not perform well at 4 ohms, to prevent overheating and keeping costs down they use current limiting on peeks, not good. Always buy 8 ohm speakers and buy an amplifier where the power doubles into 4 ohms. Simply because many 8 ohm speaker may well drop to 4 ohms or less. Such a speaker always sound best with such an amplifier. Don't use a AV amplifier for stereo music, they are all very compromised, small transformers, very under rated heatsinks, really don't like speaker where the impedance drops much below 6 ohms in places, and MANY do!!
"Always buy 8 ohm speakers and buy an amplifier where the power doubles into 4 ohms. Simply because many 8 ohm speaker may well drop to 4 ohms or less. " I didn't quite get that. What do you mean by "many 8 ohm speaker may well drop to 4 ohms or less"? Never had the thought that ohm could be variable or change. Also " buy an amplifier where the power doubles into 4 ohms" Don't know if you have the time, but drop a line if you will.
@@florinmoldovanu Here is the short version.. If a loudspeakers has a nominal impedance of 8 ohms, that means over a large range of frequency's it will measure 8 ohms but sadly in the real world speakers don't present a constant impedance. Mostly because it is impedance and not resistance. We are also dealing with AC and not DC. The impedance of a loudspeaker can rise up to say 15 ohms at certain frequency's or worse drop to 3 ohms or so. One reason you hear some amplifiers don't like some speakers. If the amplifier will not provide the required power at such low impedances, the results could be, amplifier blows up, power limiting, rise in distortion, and very common, overheating. This is what can and does happen at 8 ohms, imagine if you START at 4 ohms!
I've always thought the ability to deliver lots of current, especially fast current, with a very low output impedance, is more important than the wattage. I'd rather have a low wattage amp designed like that than an amp that was a lot more powerful on paper that couldn't deliver current as well.
Take a 25 watt tube amp and put that beside a 75 watt digital amp and I"ll take that tube amp any day. As for amps, my old little Marantz 1040 paired perfectly with my old Tannoy PBM 6.5's and they sounded massive with only 20 watts, and the flat button engaged all the time. Large speaker often don't even image for 15 feet, if you get close yo miss the sound. But my dream monitors are the Barefoot Mini Stack with those built in Hypex amps and port free sealed cabinets if anyone wants to buy those for me this Christmas!
I know from your videos that you own six sansui receivers. Just one question: what are the differences soundwise? (not in terms of watts) In the seventies you saw a number of Japanese manufacturers (pioneer,sony,yamaha,sansui,luxman to mention a few) who created a certain range of several receivers/ amps Lookalikes if you wish. I own,(amongst others) a Pioneer sa500 but there is also a sa600,sa700 and a sa800 available. More wattage ,certainly,more knobs and handles and other gadgets But Soundwise better? I don,t think so Agreed?
Hi Alexander well the best thing I can do is say look on my channel videos under Amson receivers I think there’s a lot of Sansui reviews including a whole range six of them at once Cheers K
A couple of thousand watts and 2 massive plates full of Motorola piezoelectric tweeters and a few bass cabinets works well in a night club. But not at home.
I have a background in electronics and audiology. Sound quality is entirely subjective and cannot be analysed scientifically, although it relates to frequency response, distortion and room acoustics. Loudness is a different thing entirely; all speakers have a rating for sensitivity, i.e. how many decibels of sound they produce when fed with one watt and measured at one meter distance. This will probably be in the range of 80 to 90 dB/w@1meter. However, loudness (dB) does not relate arithmetically to power in watts; it varies with 10 times the logarithm, i.e. add 10dB for every 10x power increase. Take a speaker with a sensitivity of 85 dB/w; at 1 watt, sound output is 85dB. At 10 watts it is 95 dB, at 100 watts it is 105dB and at 1000 watts it is 115dB (assuming the speaker can handle that much power). Now consider the effect of distance; loudness drops by 6dB for every doubling of distance, so the speaker with 85dB at 1 meter will give 79dB at 2 meters and 73dB at 4 meters. In stereo, 79 dB from two speakers will give a total of 83dB. Listening to more than 85 dB for prolonged periods is likely to cause permanent hearing loss; at this level , and for a 40 hour week, employers must provide ear defenders to workers. The safe limit drops by half for every 3 dB above this, so at 94 dB hearing loss is likely with exposure of 5 hours a day
if you have a low powered system, say a Marantz 15 watt unit, use efficient speakers, Tha tbeing said, I have driven my BIG Cerwin Vega VS 120s ( 3 way, 12 in woofer) fine with 25 wpc. You have to be careful NOT to over drive the amp and damage it. IF you need more bass in a small wattage system, consider a decent quality powered sub woofer.
Before my listening room got completely soundproofed back in the early 1990s, my neighbor threatened to call the police because my Mullard 3 watt tube amp is way to loud playing through my home-made open baffled speakers.
@@rodplanet5901 with 3 watts, your neighbor must have had their ear to a glass up against your wall to even detect that the stereo was on. do you really feel that you can produce the sound levels and dynamics of a live event? there are speakers with high sensitivity ratings, but not that high. also keep in mind the db drop over distance. using the inverse square law, you would be losing 6db for every doubling of distance from the source. how far away is the neighbor?
To everyone concerned and still cares, my DIY speakers used drivers rated at 97 dB per watt at 1 meter. Though the person concerned no longer lived near me and might be already dead given his age at the tme - ptobably mid 60s - he's probably more startled at the sound quality of my rig which made Iron Maiden frontman Bruce Dickinson sound as if he was "screaming in tune" in my room without the aid of any electronic amplification. Too bad nobody makes timbrally accurate recordings of modern assault rifles on CD back then.
Наука
Thanks as always Kelvin.This gives me more confidence with my 2015 Baby Marantz.
Hi Kelvin, I love the information, and the way you come across, you get the point out in a way people want to listen. And the Amplifier/Speaker combo is the key. Thanks for been a good teacher & having a "pleasant Rant" to get the point across. I was a teenager in the 90s, so 50w Amplifiers & floor standing speakers 100ish w handing seemed to work for years. As time goes on I changed houses, Rooms, music tastes. That all has an impact on witch hifi to use as you said. But likeing music from Don Williams - Queen - Motorhead...so on, getting a system that plays them all to your ears is another thing! 😄 haha!!! Cheers For Reading this. I Subscribed to you. Have a Good Christmas, 🍻 Cheers Grant, West Yorkshire 👍.
I'm late to the party but this is a great video, thanks for making it. I ended up getting a Vista Audio Spark 2 (20 WPC) for my Elac Debut 5.2's and I was initially worried that it wouldn't be enough power. However, I was quite surprised when I plugged my Schiit Modi Multibit 2 into the Spark, hit play on the CD player and turned the volume to 9 o'clock on the Spark. It was actually extremely loud and when I turned it halfway, it was so loud that I had to back away from the speakers and go to the other side of the room. A lot of people dissed the Spark for being "low power" but that was not my experience at all! Nice channel, subscribed!
Very nice expained ...Kevin...as always...It is a pleasure listen to You...Regards and Happy Holidays !
I worked at a post production house, we had those Rogers speakers in the edit suites and racks of HH 100watt amps.
Your reviews of audio equipment are the most honest. Thank you and keep up the good work; from USA.
Love your videos Kevin ,down to basics ,honest ,interpretation ,merry Christmas from perth scotland. 😊😊😊
Thanks mate Merry Christmas to you too K
I had as sansui au101for 30 years and never questioned the sound ever. Never got sick of listening to it with my vinyl. Great amplifier.
The total joy that Amp
We are going round and round in circles, these discussions where already there 40 years ago. But it is good to hear this again from somebody who has been involved with it for this long.
Hugo I’m going to make a prediction here and now to you just because I have to say this
What’s going to happen is manufacturers are going to come out with thin-walled speakers that are very sensitive and low power amplifiers
And they’re gonna say it’s a new brilliant idea.
I think this might happen because it will also save them a lot of money which is their major concern.
Thanks K
Another enjoyable and informative video Kevin. Because of your review that I got myself the Sansui AU-101, and you are right, this 15 watts Sansui sounds just delightful. No problem whatsoever driving my different bookshelf speakers (they are not hard to push anyway) compare to my other amps with 30-40 watts in a small room. I came to realise and appreciate that room size and gears matching are more important than just watts. My late father has a mono Sansui PM880 valve receiver (manufactured in 1958 but no info on wattage) which can fill up the living room with ease with a three way speakers which consist of a 12 inch woofer. Just got it serviced after staying dormant for almost 40 years. Can't wait to test it out. Thank you once again for this great review.
Bet it will sound amazing.
@@astolatpere11 I I'm really excited. Looking forward to testing it during the Christmas holidays - a Christmas present for me. :-)
@@aihuateoh3447 I believe that the reason Sansui receivers from early 70s sound so good is that their engineers used the voice of their tube amps as a guide. Good luck.
@@astolatpere11 Cheers! Merry Christmas!
Thanks Kelvin, always a pleasure.
Well done, glad I subscribed. Extra watts are nice to have for the added Headroom . And of course they need to be clean Watts . 30 watts of clean power sounds better than 500 watts of flea market power, learned that a long time ago. I think it is better to have too many watts than not enough. Speaker damage can occur whenever the amplifier is asked to play louder then it can handle.
Good point. I have some vintage Bang & Olufsen Beovox (1971) 15w, and have been running 150- 300 watts to them through a NAD amp. No issues, sound amazing. Been doing this for over 30 years. Of course I never go above half volume either.
yah it really just depends on watts actually used. 15wpc is pretty damn loud from 10 ft away
Excellent Video, very well explained. A lot of people think more watts equals better sound.
It might be Calvin..
@@drs-Rigo-Reus Thanks Bob, I think I will play safe and edit post
It’s Kelvin actually with a K bar long since stopped caring 😀
@@stereoreviewx Thanks Kelvin, did not want to offend. I know some people take it personally, but like you never worried me. Have a nice Christmas & New Year, long may the music play.
Cheers Michael and Kelvin , you both of you are doing excellent work for newbies like me , I think everyone all your subscribers appreciate your approach to Vintage Hifi stuff .
Fantastic another video been waiting for the next video from Kevin - keep them coming mate Loving your channel.Have a great Xmas.cheers from Oz.
thanks for bringing some common sense back into audio- I wish a lot of younger folks would listen to what u have to say. I have a friend that recently bought a big Mcintosch and he spent a lot of money on it, and he is puzzled as to why it does not sound as good as the Creek amp that he wanted to replace. Big watts-Big money does not always equal great sound.
Wow that sounds like a costly disappointment how much is the Macintosh can I ask
Sounds like a bit of a mismatch in tackle. Or possibly expectation.
Either way that's gott'a be a right pisser when you've lashed out McIntosh money.
I have a Crest 300wpc amp in my place. No fans. I run it with the gain knobs way down, keep it in class A and it sounds really good no matter the speaker.
In the 1970 's I seem to remember power output was often quoted as Say 25 watts RMS and sometimes 25 watts peak. 25watts RMS was about 40 watts peak peak.
Your right
How right you are (as always). Here I am, late in my office at work, alone (no wife/kid=music). My little 15-watt amp driving two Beovox CX50. Plenty of nice sounding volume !
Excellent video, as usual. My listening room is just shy of 25 square meter and my 20 wpc Pioner SX550 has more than enough power to feed the RP-600M speakers, the volume knob it rarely needed above 4-5.
The room I use for my SX 780 is about the same size and I have plenty of power as well.
4 or 5 ? not sure what that means noon ish or 9am ish
@@chinmeysway half way up, so it would be noon or just below but bever above.
Couldn't agree more, Kelvin! To this day the receiver wars of the late 70s have a lot to answer for - American audiophiles in particular seem to think that anything under 100W is 'mid-fi'. I have amps rated from 18W to 80W, driving fairly inefficient speakers in a smallish room, and the amp power rating makes no difference whatsoever. Even in my living room, a 38W Luxman L-113A driving Monitor Audio MA16 speakers could fill the room nicely at around 10 o'clock on the volume dial.
The great leveller in vintage amps is headphone listening, where the power rating of the amp makes no difference!
I have a Luxman L210 (about 2 X 50W) paired with vintage Magnat Pro-15 speakers, The combination cost me less than 300 Euro and it goes much louder than my room (and neighbors) can handle. And it sounds musical.
I have numerous integrated and power amps rated from 12W to 140W, they all will drive any speakers I own to neighbour annoying levels. In fact one power amp I own has VU metres and I was surprised to see that even at quite loud volumes I rarely went over 0.5 to 1 watt with quite sensitive speakers. It was quite surprising to me that you see all these amps with huge power ratings and most people will rarely get past probably 5 watts of the output. I mean I have a QUAD 520C which literally was used in a cinema so if it can power a cinema at a high volume I’m certain I will never get near its peak output.
My Amp in my home studio is an old Denon PMA 100m. I got it new ex stock a few years back for very cheap. Only 65 watts RMS per channel, but by gee is it loud. The sound feels so powerful and has great clarity. So its definitely not always about more power is better.
Yeah 65 W is fine for most rooms most speakers
So well explained thank you. Greetings from James J in Limerick city Ireland
Excellent video!
My everyday listen is an old Cossor valve radio I restored and added a Bluetooth adapter to so I can listen to a majestic one and a half single ended mono valve watts from my phone. Surprisingly loud due to the high efficiency speaker. Very good with old school ska and reggae, bass doesn't go low but it's there and tight, trebles sweet and vocals come over well. Spoken word was slightly unnerving tho cos it sounded like the speaker was in the room. I'd like to get another so I can try to them in stereo. Makes one want to try a stereo valve amp!
Man, I really like your passion.
I dont mean to be so off topic but does any of you know a trick to log back into an instagram account..?
I stupidly lost the password. I would appreciate any help you can give me
@Zachary Cohen instablaster ;)
@Reece Kairo I really appreciate your reply. I got to the site thru google and im trying it out now.
I see it takes quite some time so I will reply here later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
@Reece Kairo it did the trick and I finally got access to my account again. Im so happy:D
Thanks so much you saved my ass!
@Zachary Cohen Glad I could help :)
Great Explanation Kelvin,
I to was sucked into the big power trap with a massive Yamaha power amp,
with the speakers I was using at my normal listening levels the meter's rarely
peaked above 5watts.
This also did not make them any more enjoyable, needless to say its long gone
now & an expensive lesson learned.
Which is the favoured amp with the LS 35A you were talking about
.
Are use the Sansui are you 101 amplifier 15 W or the Sansui 331 receiver which I think is only 12 watts .
K
That’s a big reason I run klipsch speakers super easy to drive I like headroom is the only why I have a 225 wpc integrated amplifier plus when bass heavy tracks are on the amp just breezes. However I would like to own a prima Luna tube integrated amp. I have a sansui model 250 that needs restoring and a 890.
I love this channel, yeah.
Veddy Good,Yeah?
Really good video lot of information that are very true. I watched his review of DM4 and started watching other videos, they are very accurate, overall a good tips specially for new people coming into hi-fi world. What is important is that everything he said is true. I assume he has lot of experience with hifi so he like to share it with wider public. Amazing videos and way you are approaching to explain some components, I realy like it.
Thank you K
Nice 👍 - hi from Los Ángeles CA 😃🎶🎵🎶🎵
Well explained! Thank you
Very interesting. I am measuring the place for music and will tell you about.
I have small speakers now, 50 cm height barely and a 60 watt amp and it sounds great and really loud in a normal 25 /30 m2 living room. The speakers have a flat frequency output and the amp in nice, clear and detailed. I almost never go halfway the volume, it is really really loud then already.
Thank you for this video.
Kelvin, loving your videos, very informative! Just wondering if my Sansui AU101 would be able to drive and sound ok on some B&W 602’s?
Hi, You mentioned several times you like listening to percussion and the drums in music. I just wanted to recommend Santana’s Caravanserai and Santana 3 for your listening pleasure. Hope you like them. Happy listening! Cheers and thanks for your reviews.
Yeah good I’m going to try it
Having now watched your video,if I may comment again. You are correct in saying-high sensitivity is the thing you need for a low power amp but there is still no sacrafice for power. TRY THIS.get a very big Amp 200 and put a 50w speaker on it..then try a 50w Amp.You should here the difference even at low vol.
Yes I would say the difference I know what you’re saying and in the regard you’re saying that you’re right
I would also want to put in the equation to the speaker sound good with that much power does the room work with that much power there is a lot of additional let’s say travel that could come with high power
I should say I’m beginning to think and this isn’t a boast but I’m beginning to think I’m some kind of purist I don’t want anything to be not correct in scale or articulacy and the only way to do that is to not have it too loud
Appreciate your comments cheers K
one thing i found is with my B&W dm602s when i had my old naim nait5i my naim was rated 50 watts but it powered my 602s nicely but when you got to about 10 oclock on the dial it sort of sounded the amp was running out of puff but i then switched to a yamaha ax396 it seemed my dm602s just got more livlier to listen to and more energised
Love your stuff
I know I can run my RF7II on a flea power amplifier but they love some good clean power too.
Wise Words ...Thanks !
those receivers look real nice back in the day the wood on the top of them
Ah I see you have elac debut 6.2 in walnut I have them too the look is amazing and the sound is even better
@@sloveloguy I have listened to all 3 and found out the 6,2 and reference sounded about the same to me and unfi 2.0 with good highs but didn’t feel the bass from them so I stuck with 6.2 with the walnut cabinet and plus $300 cheaper than the other two
@@sloveloguy glad i can help
I have a Proton D940 ("only" 40W), and with Celestion Ditton 44s it is more than loud enough ! The volume control rarely goes past "9 o'clock"
yeah true, nice review .
I heard a quote from an amp designer once.."The first watt is the most important"!
I have a quite large room 7m x 6m and using large speakers, the VU on the amp is indicating < 1 watt. When playing very loud < 3 watt. Sensitivity speakers are 89dB... never understood the power rush, look at first watt amplifiers....
Great video again, i have a Sansui 441 receiver which has taken pride of place amongst my other Amps and sounds beautiful through my three way open baffles, delivers a rich and open sound especially with vinyl. No matter whether i use the open baffles, Mordaunt Short Ms400 and one off the hifi bargains of all time, a mint pair of JPW Sonatas, the little Sansui Delivers. Kelvin your approach concerning HIFI is a breathe of fresh air. Keep the Vids coming.
Thanks Anthony’ I Appreciate that there is a terrible lot of nonsense spoken out there RUclips and magazines
Cheers K
@@stereoreviewx Quite right Kelvin. in my spare time i set up Turntables and systems for friends and trying to explain to them that a good set up and platform is essential for optimum results with turntables is a must and not to listen to the nonsense on youtube etc etc is hard going but when they hear the results it makes my day. Kelvin I'm going to give you a turntable recommendation if you ever see a Sony PS-X600 Biotrace turntable for sale buy it. In my humble opinion its better than my Ariston RD11S and STd 305M turntables, and is happy playing high quality moving coil Cartridges in fact it can accommodate almost any cartridge whether it be MM/MC. Regards Anthony.
The relationship between speaker efficiency, low end extension (freq response, particularly bass frequencies), and speaker/enclosure size is summed up by "Hoffman's Iron Law":
You can have great frequency response, low power usage, or small speaker box size. . . . *pick any two*. Obviously they're not going to leave out great frequency response, so the variables are speaker size and power consumption.
Yes. That is definitely one of the major trade offs. But then speakers are inherently a ruddy great boatload of trade offs. Quality, strong, stiff, dead and aesthetically pleasing cabinets cost, and it's times two. It also scales badly for the wallet. Not too great for transport either.
With the advent of reasonably priced transistor based amplification, speakers were inevitably going to get smaller. But now with all this experience under the belt, it becomes easier to make the best compromises and get bloody fabulous sound, for even reasonable amounts of cash. Especially if one is extra canny and researches thoroughly. Though I still prefer a slimmish floorstander as the best compromise.
BTW. Class D is now becoming very interesting too in the past few years. It is looking like there have been some breakthroughs that have thrown up some bloody impressive amps.
True , if you can find go for a electro companiet ,their first amp 25watts classA....amazing it blewe away the sansui 100watts , it was like the sansui distorted aswell mc intosh integrated ,i could hear lots of distortion in comparison of the companiet of Mati Otala...
Many years ago at a Hi-Fi exhibition I had a conversation with Jim Rogers, an audio pioneer
and of JR 149 fame ( LS 35a clone, same drivers slightly different crossover ), he told me
the 149 and the 35a needed a minimum of about 35 watts 50 watts being preferable more if
you wanted to avoid running the amp into peak distortion and frying the T27 tweeter. That
does not mean huge volume levels it means having the headroom to deliver a peak power
requirement momentarily without running into distortion, the death nell for tweeters.
It is surprising how much power is needed even at modest levels to hit a peak cleanly
when driving a fairly difficult load
I knew Jim, was a great guy and his knowledge of Hi Fi was incredible. I still have some speakers made from units recommended by him and supplied by him. That would be about 1968. EMI 13"x8" with massive magnet, plus Celestion HF1300 and STC (now Coles) 4001G. I built those speakers and they were very good. Soon after, B&W brought out the DM3 which was almost the same. My speakers still work and sound excellent.
Yes well I don’t really wanna argue with Jim Rogers ,but .
Well I’m just loving the LS35A is with the 15 what Sansui or even the 12 what Sansui receiver it just sounds so good and the bass just feels a bit clogged with more power.
Now I’m not super technical person but my impression is that Sansui is have the headroom for peaks is kind of why I like them .
Thanks For the feedback though great story all information is good when I fry my tweeters I will know why.
Cheers K
@@Radfordperson Hi, casting my memory back again I think I remember
a friend of mine at the time building virtually the same thing. He used an
EMI bass driver and the Celestion but wasn't really happy so after a few
phone calls rebuilt them with the addition of the 4001 ( super tweeter?).
I can't remember what he did with the crossover, I didn't know about the
DM3s close relationship. Thanks for the reply please feel free to correct
me if I'm wrong about the 4001 being a super tweeter it was 50 years
ago afterall
@@rayfordham9230 Hi Ray, yes, the 4001G is a supertweeter. The main difference between my home constructed speakers and the B&W DM3's, is that mine use the Celestion HF1300, the DM3's use the HF1400. The 1400 is just a 1300 with a slightly larger magnet.
Back to Jim Rogers, I used to get some of his prototype speakers for home trial, not one was bad. I was particularly impressed by his Wafer speakers, so much so, I built clones of them.
@@Radfordperson Hi' me and my friend went to a Hi-Fi exhibition in a hotel
at Heathrow, It was when the JR 149 came out so a few years later. We headed
for the JR room as I was interested in the 149s ( which I bought some weeks later), that was where I discussing power requirements with Mr Rogers as per
my original post, when I had finished I took a closer look at the speakers leaving
my friend and Mr Rogers heads down over a table, my friend came away
grinning from ear to ear Mr Rogers had drawn two crossover diagrams on a hotel menu for him to try in his speakers to integrate the two tweeters better.
A very nice man.
I really envy you getting access to that equipment back then, and then building
your own version. I couldn't afford to do such things having been recently
married, buying a house and everything that entails. I had to make a very
long distance call to check my facts, we are both now in our 70s but I got
there in the end. Thanks for the chat, yet again I've proved your never to old
to learn.
Kelvin, great video. Keep them coming! I like all amps of all power levels. I’ve got a few low powered receivers and a few high powered amps. I agree, Sensitivity is the key I think. I’ve got one system with a Sansui 5000 from 1970 55W and original Large Advents. Those speakers aren’t efficient but I don’t know what they were rated. They have a 12” sealed woofer (no ports) and need those 55W for the bass to come alive. When it does, it’s amazing. I have another setup with a Sherwood 7100-a 12W also 1970. It’s pushing moderately efficient 88db Wharfedale Diamond 230 and they sound great.
I had a Sanusi 5000A purchased in 70.
Thought it was rated at 180 wpc?
Am I wrong about that?
I’m the second owner so I don’t know definitely but I found this at classicreceivers.com....
Here we have the Sansui 5000x receiver. It was produced in the early 70’s and was a very popular unit. It puts out 55 watts per channel and weighs in at around 40 pounds....
This one has no x designation it’s just a 5000 so this might not be totally accurate.
@@stevezeidman7224 My older brother ran a Sansui 500X with Klipsch Cornwalls in our large basement and I was BLOWN AWAY with stereo...😃
Power in reserve is great to have but most of the time you don’t need lots of power and as you say it’s all relevant to how big your room is
I recall Nelson Pass said in relation to his First Watt amp: it's about the quality of the first few watts. And I'm not entirely sure why, but amps with smaller wattage somehow manage to deliver that intimate magic within the confines of those humble watts - something most amps with megawatts fail to achieve; perhaps it's to do with amp design in general? I can't put my finger on it as I'm not a technician but my ears say so.
Yes I understand what you’re saying and I think you’re right
No idea what the technical explanation would be
Maybe we’re are just missing a new technical analysis
K
Some of my favorite moments with my hifi our like my favorite moments with the wife, alone and quite in the dark.
😂
Hi pal. Love you videos and appreciate you rich experience with vintage stuff. In your video's you've featured an Arcam Alpha Cd Player. Which model is it as I'm thinking of getting one purely based on your comments of it thanks
It’s just called our arcane alpha No numbers or anything on the front
Question? I have an old Denon PMA-915R rated 2x80w, what kid of speaker should I use. I'm new at this hobby ☺️, I'm talking about bookshelf speakers
It also depends on the speaker "efficiency" and power handling capability. I remember many years ago I upgraded my power-amp from 60w/ch to 200w/ch. The difference was quite remarkable. More recently however, I find that having "distributed" power over several lower power amps yields better results than just using "brute force power" into two cabinets. In today's world..the only speakers than really need serious power are subs of 10 inches or greater. The point is..If you can bi-amp (or tri-amp) your system with multiple medium power (50-100 w/ch) amps...DO IT.
Thanks for your info Johnny K
Just received a Cambridge Audio AXA 25 for christmas, that is 25WPC and it is VERY loud.
Hi can you please explain what a pre amp is and why you need it cheers. Ijust use a old 90s sony amp. Fantastic sound with plenty punch on my kef coda 8 s
Great video Kelvin. Question from the floor, what about impedance and its effect on sound quality? 🇦🇺🌹
See my comments above.
Very interesting Video, I bought a Yamaha CR-420 in great mint condition, it has 2x30 Watt. My Room is 5x4meters, can you commend me some good vintage Speakers for the Yamaha ?
Thanks Tom
A question about wats and ohms.
If i have speakers, let´s say Magnat Supreme Monitor 1002:
Magnat Monitor Supreme II
Resilience music (max.)
380 W
Resilience Sinus 190 W
Frequency (min.) 19 Hz
Frequency (max.) 40000 Hz
Frequency range 19 Hz - 40000 Hz
Impedance
4 - 8 Ω
Sound pressure
92 dB.
Having that information and if I plug a 200 Watts amplifier, RMS and from 4 - 8 Ohms.
Then I have a question at wich level of Ohms will be conected the amplifier to the speakers.?
By conecting the Speakers to an amplifiers is the result of the Ohms of every speaker the same or lower.
As I understand and with the info giving for the Magnat ones, at 4 ohm will be 380 watts and at 8 ohm will be 190 ohms.
Is it ok or am I confusing how that works.?
Thanks in avance.
it all started in 80's; cheap plastic, a lot of watts, big numbers, flashy colors.. in 70's you had 50w speakers with 30w amp and you got a powerful system. today people laugh at those numbers but hey.. my philips 457's still sound amazing :)
Philips vintage audio is the secret tip (not all products though). Much hated by many but often very good.
@@hugobloemers4425 I heard that many times, that's why I grabbed them. they are extreeemly musical, not the best by modern standards, far from it, but they sing like a bird in the spring field covered with fresh flowers lol
"Hoffman's Iron Law" "You can have low end extension, high efficiency, or small enclosure size. Pick two." In the 70s they went with the first two, and sold speakers the size of basketballs inside enclosures the size of small dressers or shelves. Later they wanted smaller enclosures to stay competitive in an environment of under-educated customers who were misled by "Bose" small systems simply stating they sound good with enough money behind it. They chose to trade out the efficiency, meaning they HAD to crank up more power to the less efficient speakers.
@@snap-off5383 I was thinking the same thing as I watch this episode. I recall the first time I heard the tiny Bose speakers - the sound out of those little cubes was amazing - when really cranking but if you want to listen to something mellow, the cones are so tight you miss so much. Give me my floppy basketball size, small dresser type speakers any day .. they can handle the mellow times and pump it when needed.
I feel high current is better
This is how I like an audiophile teacher sound.
A lot of this is about an amplifiers headroom capability and an amplifiers range of linearity. Often times we only use a handful of watts when listening to our system even at higher volumes. An amplifier’s range of linearity, the range in which its performing cleanly with low distortion, is going to be smaller with a lower watt amp and larger with a higher watt amp. It doesn’t take that many watts to quickly start falling out of the amplifiers linear range. Headroom and the quality of the amplifier when being pushed greatly determines the quality of the sound you get.
Power is not linear
@@MegaTechnoteacher Sorry, I should have been more clear for those who aren’t as familiar. I’m referring to the linearity of frequency response.
Modern loudspeakers trade off sensitivity for bass extension, so this allows for domestically friendly standmounts with reasonable bass extension.
Good point that seems true
What has SPL to do with watts? and what volume level on any amp should you not go past, % that is?
Great information sir - so based on my 18 x 25-foot room I'm looking to connect a Marantz Model 1090 Amplifier with a pair of B&W DM2 Mk2 Speakers and a Thorens TD160 turntable. what are your thoughts, please? I'm not getting you to do my setup for me, I just wanted to pick your large audio brain. Best
Nice video as usual, Kelvin, thanks. I see you didn't fall in to the trap of talking about "British" watts v "Japanese" watts 😅
This was a phenomenon first demonstrated by the likes of Naim and really driven home by the famous NAD 3020 which arrived on the scene in 1980 with a gut busting 20wpc. Plenty of amps had high watts RMS into 8 ohm loads but couldn't handle anything except highly efficient speakers. As soon as the impedance dipped down to 4 ohms they lost their mojo.
I think the grip the amp has over the speakers has far more impact on the sound quality and in class A and AB amps this means oversized power transformers and smoothing caps, capable of delivering big dollops of current to give transients all the impact you could want.
The sound from my main system improved dramatically when I went from a 75wpc amp to a 150wpc amp from the same company. It was nothing to do with the volume, I hasten to add. It had everything to do with the ability of the amp to keep tighter control on the speakers.
Most of the time it’s the first ten watts that are needed for music playback. Beyond that it’s the quality of the watts. Good quality and transparency are a must. Two amplifiers of the same design and different power output will differ because of headroom. We get into trouble on peaks more of the time with a low powered amplifier than a high powered one. The more powerful one will deliver more current and move the drive units more precisely. Sensitive speakers will keep the low powered amplifier out of trouble more of the time and give a similar effect to the high powered amplifier with average to low sensitivity speakers.
Powerful amplifiers also give more useable bandwidth to the speakers. Matching the amplifier to your speakers by listening is therefore a must. The amplifiers that can track transients accurately with the speakers you have chosen in the room you are using will get you the possibility of good sound.
Good info thanks Chris K
I just bought my first vintage stereo receiver 2 days ago. Sansui 6060 in near mint condition for 500 dollars. it’s rated at 40 watts per channel. if these stereos are truly under rated then I’m probably pushing around 50 plus. the room it’s going to be in is only 14 foot long by 12 foot wide lol. I’m hooking it up to Polk Audio Monitor 40 series speakers. hopefully it sounds good.
Yeah let us know what you think when you plug it in very interested cheers K
@@stereoreviewx well I just got it 2 days ago and was finally able to hook it up today. I am floored by how great the sound quality is. I’m impressed by the sound quality so much that I wish I knew what I know now back when I was just a stupid teenager and in my 20’s and most of my 30’s. I’ve got 2500 dollars wrapped up in a modern surround sound setup in my living room. I wish I took that money and spent it on a high end vintage receiver that was built in the 70’s. I’m already thinking about selling it all now and getting as much as I can and go all vintage in my living room. they can take all this digital crap with its fancy surround sound modes and stick it where the sun don’t shine lol. the richness in the sound of this Sansui 6060 hooked up to my Polk Audio Monitor 40 series speakers is just mind blowing. I’m on cloud nine right now lol. this is the happiest I’ve ever been from hearing a stereo receiver. I’ve always been wanting a stereo with rich deep sound and now after all these years I finally have what I’ve been looking for. I’ll never buy anything modern when it comes to receivers ever again. by the way I love your channel. you’re very kind and honest and give great information. have a nice day and god bless.
That’s great to hear my friend so many times people have messaged me they bought Sansui vintage and they just love it.
As far as vintage receivers go you probably won’t get much better you’re at the top of the tree nearly.
Cheers K
I have have an amplifier rated at 15 Watts per channel and I also have some very old 1970 goodmans speakers rated at 4 ohms but they have a very good sensitivity level 93 DB
So you can see there are two things happening here when a speaker is 4 ohms it normally takes more driving but normally can give you more volume when a speaker is a higher sensitivity that's also give you more volume normally it is people buying stuff that either looks good but doesn't sound compatible
I always advise people to go and buy speakers with the highest sensitivity they can actually get and also the sound has to be right above the biggest powerful amplifier normally the speakers are the most reliable part of the system anyway if you spend most of your money on your speakers they can actually last you a lifetime if driven properly instead of under driven a speaker likes to be driven I suppose it's like a human getting no exercise at all you will end up in hospital
💪💪🤗🤗
Music has a crest factor. The better the recording, the higher the crest factor. If you like audiophile recordings, than you'll benefit from more power. If you listen at, say 0.5Wrms stereo to a high quality recording with a CF of 20dB, than you need 0.5W* 2speakers*10^2=_100W_ or 2x50W of linear power to reproduce those transients accurately. One reason this may be unnoticed is because microphones compress peaks in bass region, which would otherwise eat up majority of the power. Regardless, most of us just get away with some compression and loss of dynamics. The ones that value dynamics listen to horns anyway.
John Meyer has a good research on this. Check out his AES talk on M-noise,
Yes my friend I will Check out John Mayer research
Are Brit living rooms still maxed out at 3 x4 meters these days? Hence the typical Brit hifi and harbeth ls3/5a speaker types. In Europe we have rooms of 5 by 8 meters or more. Big difference, its true. Amazing.
Most English people live in a shoebox that’s if they are lucky
Will running 4 ohm speakers with 6-8 ohm amp really hurt the amp or is it just you won't get the quality of sound? Was given a pair of very old Maggies...
I still have and use a wharfdale Denton amp, it gets high praise from visitors
Interesting thanks
@@stereoreviewx solavox speakers first now kefs!,
hi, my av sony k990 manual says, it is a 90 watts per channel av and it gives up to 140 watts per speaker. what is the difference of per channel and per speaker?
Mystery to me
The only speakers I owned that needed big power were Kefs Q150.
Finally someone that understands that a good sensitive speaker with a nice tone with a small power will out weigh a big amp with poor tune and big low sensitive speakers
The right power and ability to use it properly is the key
not to mention the price tag on the big power amp.
Watts really matter at least with Magnepan speakers. Or should i say current. I have two Nad 214 amps in mono producing 500 watts of power in 4 ohms. I would say that is suitable for Magnepans.
Yep. Magnepans need juice. And more is good.
I saw your video i just ask i have 3w bluetooth amplifer can i use 15w 4ohm speaker?
Nice video 👍🏼 ....but one question: aren’t the watts of an amp similar to the power of a car engine? I mean if you don’t crank up the volume like a mad man on your powerful amps it doesn’t hurt to have „headroom“ and stable current flow down to little ohms, does it? A car with - let’s say -
500 horsepower can also be driven with slower speed as well as with high speed...if wanted.
Given bigger speakers and a medium to bigger sized room
Yes the car analogy is certainly good one but it ain’t perfect ultimately you have to like the sound so you might say ultimately you have to like the look of the car
@@stereoreviewx for sure ...👍🏼
A few things many people do not understand. 20watts is NOT twice as loud as 10 watts. Turning the volume pot 50% of it's travel is NOT 50% of the available power. Many BBC monitors, LS35A etc are a nominal 15 ohms impedance, with a 25 watt nominal rating. With most transistor (none valve) amplifiers you will need at least 50 watts output to drive the 15 ohm impedance at 25 watts.
As the maximum power of ANY amplifier is approached distortion begins to rise until it clips. So by using a more powerful amplifier under most conditions you will never have peaks that approach or entre clipping, keeping the sound always clean and fatigue free.
Many amplifiers made for a nominal 8 ohm speaker do not perform well at 4 ohms, to prevent overheating and keeping costs down they use current limiting on peeks, not good. Always buy 8 ohm speakers and buy an amplifier where the power doubles into 4 ohms. Simply because many 8 ohm speaker may well drop to 4 ohms or less. Such a speaker always sound best with such an amplifier. Don't use a AV amplifier for stereo music, they are all very compromised, small transformers, very under rated heatsinks, really don't like speaker where the impedance drops much below 6 ohms in places, and MANY do!!
Great info thanks a lot K
"Always buy 8 ohm speakers and buy an amplifier where the power doubles into 4 ohms. Simply because many 8 ohm speaker may well drop to 4 ohms or less. "
I didn't quite get that. What do you mean by "many 8 ohm speaker may well drop to 4 ohms or less"? Never had the thought that ohm could be variable or change. Also " buy an amplifier where the power doubles into 4 ohms"
Don't know if you have the time, but drop a line if you will.
@@florinmoldovanu Here is the short version.. If a loudspeakers has a nominal impedance of 8 ohms, that means over a large range of frequency's it will measure 8 ohms but sadly in the real world speakers don't present a constant impedance. Mostly because it is impedance and not resistance. We are also dealing with AC and not DC. The impedance of a loudspeaker can rise up to say 15 ohms at certain frequency's or worse drop to 3 ohms or so. One reason you hear some amplifiers don't like some speakers.
If the amplifier will not provide the required power at such low impedances, the results could be, amplifier blows up, power limiting, rise in distortion, and very common, overheating. This is what can and does happen at 8 ohms, imagine if you START at 4 ohms!
@@MichaelBeeny got it Michael, thank you!
@@MichaelBeeny If I'm correct damping factor is what regulates and controls that variation in impedance right?
When it comes to power, it's all about headroom with a high powered amp.
I've always thought the ability to deliver lots of current, especially fast current, with a very low output impedance, is more important than the wattage. I'd rather have a low wattage amp designed like that than an amp that was a lot more powerful on paper that couldn't deliver current as well.
Sounds good to me
Take a 25 watt tube amp and put that beside a 75 watt digital amp and I"ll take that tube amp any day. As for amps, my old little Marantz 1040 paired perfectly with my old Tannoy PBM 6.5's and they sounded massive with only 20 watts, and the flat button engaged all the time. Large speaker often don't even image for 15 feet, if you get close yo miss the sound. But my dream monitors are the Barefoot Mini Stack with those built in Hypex amps and port free sealed cabinets if anyone wants to buy those for me this Christmas!
Santer is on his way
I know from your videos that you own six sansui receivers. Just one question: what are the differences soundwise?
(not in terms of watts) In the seventies you saw a number of Japanese manufacturers (pioneer,sony,yamaha,sansui,luxman to
mention a few) who created a certain range of several receivers/ amps Lookalikes if you wish. I own,(amongst others)
a Pioneer sa500 but there is also a sa600,sa700 and a sa800 available. More wattage ,certainly,more knobs and handles
and other gadgets But Soundwise better? I don,t think so Agreed?
Hi Alexander well the best thing I can do is say look on my channel videos under Amson receivers I think there’s a lot of Sansui reviews including a whole range six of them at once
Cheers K
By my hearing experience going more watts tonality and sounds are fine tuned. Go always min 100 watts for better clarity
A couple of thousand watts and 2 massive plates full of Motorola piezoelectric tweeters and a few bass cabinets works well in a night club. But not at home.
I have a background in electronics and audiology. Sound quality is entirely subjective and cannot be analysed scientifically, although it relates to frequency response, distortion and room acoustics. Loudness is a different thing entirely; all speakers have a rating for sensitivity, i.e. how many decibels of sound they produce when fed with one watt and measured at one meter distance. This will probably be in the range of 80 to 90 dB/w@1meter. However, loudness (dB) does not relate arithmetically to power in watts; it varies with 10 times the logarithm, i.e. add 10dB for every 10x power increase.
Take a speaker with a sensitivity of 85 dB/w; at 1 watt, sound output is 85dB. At 10 watts it is 95 dB, at 100 watts it is 105dB and at 1000 watts it is 115dB (assuming the speaker can handle that much power). Now consider the effect of distance; loudness drops by 6dB for every doubling of distance, so the speaker with 85dB at 1 meter will give 79dB at 2 meters and 73dB at 4 meters. In stereo, 79 dB from two speakers will give a total of 83dB. Listening to more than 85 dB for prolonged periods is likely to cause permanent hearing loss; at this level , and for a 40 hour week, employers must provide ear defenders to workers. The safe limit drops by half for every 3 dB above this, so at 94 dB hearing loss is likely with exposure of 5 hours a day
very informative and makes a lot of sense. Thanks you!
Great Video! I’m looking for a quality lower watt receiver. My budget is around $200. What would you recommend? I hope this finds you well.
Sansui 2000a, 4000, 5000
NAD 7020
Sansui 441 its incredible.
Are there any examples of speakers that measure near perfect but don't sound good?
Can you do a Mission Cyrus one vs Nad 3020 vs Sansui?
Sherlock Holmes, he needed plenty of watts.
Taxi for Dave G.
Dr. Wattson, quick, the amplifier game is afoot!!
What about if you have subs crossed at80hz
if you have a low powered system, say a Marantz 15 watt unit, use efficient speakers, Tha tbeing said, I have driven my BIG Cerwin Vega VS 120s ( 3 way, 12 in woofer) fine with 25 wpc. You have to be careful NOT to over drive the amp and damage it. IF you need more bass in a small wattage system, consider a decent quality powered sub woofer.
Before my listening room got completely soundproofed back in the early 1990s, my neighbor threatened to call the police because my Mullard 3 watt tube amp is way to loud playing through my home-made open baffled speakers.
i'm having trouble believing that one.
@@dougburg3210 I'd like to know why. Pls enlighten me. Thanks
@@rodplanet5901 with 3 watts, your neighbor must have had their ear to a glass up against your wall to even detect that the stereo was on. do you really feel that you can produce the sound levels and dynamics of a live event? there are speakers with high sensitivity ratings, but not that high. also keep in mind the db drop over distance. using the inverse square law, you would be losing 6db for every doubling of distance from the source. how far away is the neighbor?
@@dougburg3210 thanks for the infos
To everyone concerned and still cares, my DIY speakers used drivers rated at 97 dB per watt at 1 meter. Though the person concerned no longer lived near me and might be already dead given his age at the tme - ptobably mid 60s - he's probably more startled at the sound quality of my rig which made Iron Maiden frontman Bruce Dickinson sound as if he was "screaming in tune" in my room without the aid of any electronic amplification. Too bad nobody makes timbrally accurate recordings of modern assault rifles on CD back then.