Gentlemen, thanks so much to both of you for your faithful defense of Biblical truth. Thanks also for being bold and brave when sin arrises in awkward and difficult ways. May it please our Lord to continue to use you both for His glory and our edification.
As a Christian living near SF, you soon realize how much gay men prioritize their homosexual attractions over many other aspects of life. Many churches start out by trying to evangelize them but soon they start flying the LGBTQ flag. After seeing so many instances, you start to realize why Paul was insistent on excommunicating the unrepenting sexually immortal brother in Corinth.
It’s always best to follow scripture literally unless it is used as a type or analogy etc. Any different approach will eventually find the “church” introducing ANY culture driven agenda beginning to involve and accept others who blatantly disregard the scriptures. Give in a little and lose it all. Thoughts?
@@KTSAdventures You read and understand the bible the way it is written. Psalm is a collection of songs and poems, you don't interpret it literally but as flowing literature. Historical narratives are read as historical. Parables are not to be understood literally but as messages inside parables. Metaphors are not literal but comparison language. Many think the story of the Good Samaritan's main point is for Christians to be loving neighbors but it is not. The main point is Jesus exposing the prideful lawyer that man cannot save himself. When Jesus said "you go, and do likewise", he was not telling the lawyer to act like the Good Samaritan if you read it literally, but he was pointing out the impossibility of acting like the Good Samaritan to "earn" eternal life. Just reading literally is not a good idea but need to take the context into consideration.
@@ChristIsLord247 Pastors in this area are different too. I had to switch churches twice in 10 years since I moved here. Something about this area changes their beliefs...
@@thomasc9036 my pastor left his church and started a new one when the elders at that church wanted him to stop preaching biblical truth, like salvation, sin, the existence of hell. Very sad. But yes it took years to find a sound church. Our last one that we tried, the pastor got divorced, twice.
I’m wondering the same thing. Our little church can’t afford to pay the PCA to get out. That’s ludicrous. My understanding is that they own our church & property thru some trust & we can’t just break away from them.😢
@@believer2734 This is not the case in the PCA. If you listen to Jarod at 9:00 you will hear him outline what is necessary. For the church to leave it is simply a majority vote. The PCA does not own church buildings. Jarod does mention the PCUSA which does have some sort of ownership of buildings. For that the PCA specifically avoided this so it would be easy for any church that finds itself in disagreement with the denomination to leave.
Has the congregation actually voted on the matter yet? It not, I feel like this announcement is still premature. The letter the session sent out last month says the meeting will be held on November 18th for the congregation to decide, which is a full month's time after the call to vote was sent, per BCO requirements.
Good point, better to watch and see what actually transpires at the meeting than to sound the alarm. Btw your name and picture made me think of untitled goose game, untitled presbygoose game.
Remember only way to repent and be saved by Christ John 3:5-8, Acts 11:14-18, Luke 11:9-13 until you get Zeph 3:9/ Acts 2:4,17,21,38 John 17:20-26 Just follow only the Early Church tradition teaching not different churches beliefs but Jesus will guide you personally to the end John 10:1-6,11-16, Acts4:12 , 1 John 2:24-25 and John 13:17! You can go do yourself baptized in water and separately then baptized Holy Spirit too. Read more how to do it ask me if needed Remember that only Jesus Christ can tell you have the Holy Spirit! ROM 8:16
Being a Presbytarian myself, I have never really understood why church affiliations matter to us, compared to Anglicans/Episcopalians and Catholics that by default follow a centralized doctrine from Canterbury or Rome. We on the other hand are congregationalists and each Church is run by elders together with one or several Pastors... So why (in the US for ex) do we have two centralized Presbytarian groups; PC (liberal) an PCA (concervative)? Why should we care what happen in PC or PCA and who are leaving or staying? In fact, why do we as Presbytarians belong to any 'umbrella' organisation like PC and PCA anyway? You can have a stronger impact on society if you get your voices heard from a specific congregation or Pastor, rather than a downplayed lukewarm (see Laodisea!) statement of faith from an organisational headquarter of PCA, for example. Both of you have strong presence Online and loads of followers, and you write and produce books too. Why would you let any umbrella organisation to hold you back in the name of 'inclussion' (really a term used in society, meaning: accept anything-anyware- anytime), when any statement on any subject from YOU are Bible based? Some Biblical truth are not seen as convenient(!) in todays society, However, that does not mean it should be surpressed and not read or taught. You already know that, so why is there even have a discussion about one group of reformed Churches (with some different view) who are leaving or belonging to PCA or not? If those views are wrong from a Biblical perspective, well then criticise that, and not how or why these specific Churches will belong to PCA or not? How does that inform on or spread the Gospel? How is that helpful in any way, except from some internal church politics? No, do what you are doing best: inform, explain and educate people about Biblical truth, not on organisational issues. ...just my opinion.
I see nothing wrong with their approach, as seen here. They are treating this development like a normal news cycle. This is news, denominationalism aside. Again, if forms a talking point and platform for emerging issues such as homosexuality. Each congregation is ultimately individual, and should indeed decide what works for them. This is insightful and I, for one, appreciate. I am Presbyterian, but here in Nairobi, Kenya. As a student of the Bible, church history and world affairs I am interested in such news. Yes, I am 150% sola scriptura but we do not live in isolation. Even such developments are part of prophecy, with this word apostasy, a major part of the end time. I have enjoyed the presentation overall.
@@Sam1jere Very interresting comment and clearly insightful, so thank you Sam. Said that, I still feel that 'Church affairs' seem to take a lot of effort and time away from understanding and discussion of Biblical truth. Sure, it all has a place in life but let me take an example, if a bit extreem perhaps. I used to live in one of the biggest University towns here in the UK and belonged to a very vibrant Congregational Church. However, I remember one autumn when all focus and discussion (including the Sunday messages for 3 weeks) was around when and how we should share after-service coffee with a next-door Baptist Church. At the time it seemed like an important question, but one that started off as a practical one on 'who should pay' for it, to then turning into a discussion on 'risk of mixing doctrine' lasting weeks. This is ofcourse not helpful in any way, and should not have taken such prominence in Church-life (for lack of a better expression). I find that a discussion of a Church group (Revoice Memorial Presb. Church) wanting to remain or leaving a 'mother organisation' (like PCA) being a discussion on par with 'after Church coffee', in the sence that their message and life in their Church will most likely not change if they leave PCA... so why making it into big 'BREAKING' news? They might stay within PCO or they might leave, thats it. Sure, as you say, a discussion of homosexuality and the Church (for example) is ofcourse a much bigger issue, but we always run a risk of focus on one single issue, and making it into something that seem to take on its own life in Church, and all we do is 'dealing' with that issue. Its not a question of the Church taking a stand (in the world) on a Biblical stand point (and that is ofcourse correct) but that we become a Church who can only focus on ONE aspect on being Christian, at anyone time. ...just my personal comment!
@@peterjaro6804 Thanks a lot for your comment brother Peter! Love your example about "sharing of coffee." Perfect encapsulation of how we end up taking our eyes off the prize and majoring on minors. Hilarious too and very, very familiar, sadly. You and I will broadly agree that the onus of our Christian walk is solely upon ourselves as individual Christians. There can be no doubt about that or excuse too. The way the world is moving today, it is very important for us to be deliberate about what we believe in. At day's end, we are commanded, in the book of Revelation, to "get out of her, my people." There has come that time of apostasy where it doesn't really matter what my congregation/denomination says, it is about the true 'ecclesia,' which is what the church was always meant to be. We were always to be united in Christ, bound by the cement of love. Does that make sense? We were always meant to be IN the world, but not OF the world. Whenever we lose sight of the Way and narrow path, we are in trouble regardless. Hope it makes sense. Love your viewpoint overall.
As for being a Presbyterian and thinking there are only "two centralized groups" under the Presbyterian umbrella, I'm surprised that you're not aware of the OPC (Orthodox Presbyterian Church) and EPC (Evangelical Presbyterian Church). Do you know what confession of faith your group holds to?
"why do we as Presbytarians belong to any 'umbrella' organisation like PC and PCA anyway?" Because doing so is definitional of Presbyterianism. Churches generally govern their internal affairs through their elders, and they come together for mutual support and accountability into one or more Presbyteries, which have at least a degree of authority over the operations of the local churches that comprise them. And depending on the size of those Presbyteries, they may or may not form a higher-level organization to oversee the Presbyteries (otherwise, as is the case in the CREC and the Vanguard Presbytery, the Presbytery itself is the "higher-level organization"), which higher-level organization has some degree of authority over the operations of its member Presbyteries. That's what defines Presbyterianism insofar as it relates to church government--you might as well have asked, "why do we as Baptists practice believers' baptism?" And given that, it should be obvious why "we [in PCA churches, for example] care what happen[s] in PCA and who are leaving or staying." What one does reflects on all, and if the organization fails to respond to a church that's flagrantly defying both biblical teaching and the standards of the denomination (which is what's going on here), that also reflects poorly, both on the organization and its member churches. BTW, in addition to the PCUSA (which you call the PC), the PCA, and the OPC and EPC mentioned in another comment, there are also the CREC, the Vanguard Presbytery, the RPCNA, ECO, and probably others I'm not thinking of.
@@Phill0oldBest comment ever. :) I live about 20 minutes away from the People’s republic of Seattle, and no joke literally 80% of them are some flavor or degree of progressive. Luckily I was patient, and finally found two solid PCA Churches to choose from. You’re right, don’t give up there are good PCA Churches to be found, we just have to look and be patient. :)
@@ronlanter6906If a denom goes progressive, it isn't worth staying in. Brice's point is well taken. Look at the UMC (my church left the UMC for what I hope are obvious reasons). There must always be an escape hatch if conditions don't improve.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Gentlemen, thanks so much to both of you for your faithful defense of Biblical truth. Thanks also for being bold and brave when sin arrises in awkward and difficult ways. May it please our Lord to continue to use you both for His glory and our edification.
Amen.
As a Christian living near SF, you soon realize how much gay men prioritize their homosexual attractions over many other aspects of life. Many churches start out by trying to evangelize them but soon they start flying the LGBTQ flag. After seeing so many instances, you start to realize why Paul was insistent on excommunicating the unrepenting sexually immortal brother in Corinth.
It’s always best to follow scripture literally unless it is used as a type or analogy etc. Any different approach will eventually find the “church” introducing ANY culture driven agenda beginning to involve and accept others who blatantly disregard the scriptures. Give in a little and lose it all. Thoughts?
@@KTSAdventures You read and understand the bible the way it is written. Psalm is a collection of songs and poems, you don't interpret it literally but as flowing literature. Historical narratives are read as historical. Parables are not to be understood literally but as messages inside parables. Metaphors are not literal but comparison language.
Many think the story of the Good Samaritan's main point is for Christians to be loving neighbors but it is not. The main point is Jesus exposing the prideful lawyer that man cannot save himself. When Jesus said "you go, and do likewise", he was not telling the lawyer to act like the Good Samaritan if you read it literally, but he was pointing out the impossibility of acting like the Good Samaritan to "earn" eternal life. Just reading literally is not a good idea but need to take the context into consideration.
Yep. I live in the same area. Finding a church was, ummmmm, challenging. Sin, any kind, just takes over whenever it's allowed to stay in the church.
@@ChristIsLord247 Pastors in this area are different too. I had to switch churches twice in 10 years since I moved here. Something about this area changes their beliefs...
@@thomasc9036 my pastor left his church and started a new one when the elders at that church wanted him to stop preaching biblical truth, like salvation, sin, the existence of hell. Very sad. But yes it took years to find a sound church. Our last one that we tried, the pastor got divorced, twice.
Jesus preached repentants, its something we should do
What is the process that a congregation would have to go through, if they wanted to leave the PCA?
I’m wondering the same thing. Our little church can’t afford to pay the PCA to get out. That’s ludicrous. My understanding is that they own our church & property thru some trust & we can’t just break away from them.😢
@@believer2734 I hope that your congregation is able to find a solution for this.
@@believer2734 This is not the case in the PCA. If you listen to Jarod at 9:00 you will hear him outline what is necessary. For the church to leave it is simply a majority vote. The PCA does not own church buildings. Jarod does mention the PCUSA which does have some sort of ownership of buildings. For that the PCA specifically avoided this so it would be easy for any church that finds itself in disagreement with the denomination to leave.
Why is so much of this up to us to do something about, why doesn’t God step in and take care of this?
aahh, because He can only work thru us.
@@davidhanes534Only? You must not believe God is omnipotent.
Has the congregation actually voted on the matter yet? It not, I feel like this announcement is still premature. The letter the session sent out last month says the meeting will be held on November 18th for the congregation to decide, which is a full month's time after the call to vote was sent, per BCO requirements.
Good point, better to watch and see what actually transpires at the meeting than to sound the alarm.
Btw your name and picture made me think of untitled goose game, untitled presbygoose game.
@@ethanlafont5073 yessir, I blatantly copied the games style lol
Remember only way to repent and be saved by Christ John 3:5-8, Acts 11:14-18, Luke 11:9-13 until you get Zeph 3:9/ Acts 2:4,17,21,38 John 17:20-26 Just follow only the Early Church tradition teaching not different churches beliefs but Jesus will guide you personally to the end John 10:1-6,11-16, Acts4:12 , 1 John 2:24-25 and John 13:17! You can go do yourself baptized in water and separately then baptized Holy Spirit too. Read more how to do it ask me if needed Remember that only Jesus Christ can tell you have the Holy Spirit! ROM 8:16
WCF 3:1, 5:1
Being a Presbytarian myself, I have never really understood why church affiliations matter to us, compared to Anglicans/Episcopalians and Catholics that by default follow a centralized doctrine from Canterbury or Rome. We on the other hand are congregationalists and each Church is run by elders together with one or several Pastors... So why (in the US for ex) do we have two centralized Presbytarian groups; PC (liberal) an PCA (concervative)? Why should we care what happen in PC or PCA and who are leaving or staying? In fact, why do we as Presbytarians belong to any 'umbrella' organisation like PC and PCA anyway? You can have a stronger impact on society if you get your voices heard from a specific congregation or Pastor, rather than a downplayed lukewarm (see Laodisea!) statement of faith from an organisational headquarter of PCA, for example.
Both of you have strong presence Online and loads of followers, and you write and produce books too. Why would you let any umbrella organisation to hold you back in the name of 'inclussion' (really a term used in society, meaning: accept anything-anyware-
anytime), when any statement on any subject from YOU are Bible based? Some Biblical truth are not seen as convenient(!) in todays society, However, that does not mean it should be surpressed and not read or taught. You already know that, so why is there even have a discussion about one group of reformed Churches (with some different view) who are leaving or belonging to PCA or not? If those views are wrong from a Biblical perspective, well then criticise that, and not how or why these specific Churches will belong to PCA or not? How does that inform on or spread the Gospel? How is that helpful in any way, except from some internal church politics? No, do what you are doing best: inform, explain and educate people about Biblical truth, not on organisational issues. ...just my opinion.
I see nothing wrong with their approach, as seen here. They are treating this development like a normal news cycle. This is news, denominationalism aside. Again, if forms a talking point and platform for emerging issues such as homosexuality. Each congregation is ultimately individual, and should indeed decide what works for them. This is insightful and I, for one, appreciate.
I am Presbyterian, but here in Nairobi, Kenya. As a student of the Bible, church history and world affairs I am interested in such news. Yes, I am 150% sola scriptura but we do not live in isolation. Even such developments are part of prophecy, with this word apostasy, a major part of the end time. I have enjoyed the presentation overall.
@@Sam1jere Very interresting comment and clearly insightful, so thank you Sam. Said that, I still feel that 'Church affairs' seem to take a lot of effort and time away from understanding and discussion of Biblical truth. Sure, it all has a place in life but let me take an example, if a bit extreem perhaps. I used to live in one of the biggest University towns here in the UK and belonged to a very vibrant Congregational Church. However, I remember one autumn when all focus and discussion (including the Sunday messages for 3 weeks) was around when and how we should share after-service coffee with a next-door Baptist Church. At the time it seemed like an important question, but one that started off as a practical one on 'who should pay' for it, to then turning into a discussion on 'risk of mixing doctrine' lasting weeks. This is ofcourse not helpful in any way, and should not have taken such prominence in Church-life (for lack of a better expression). I find that a discussion of a Church group (Revoice Memorial Presb. Church) wanting to remain or leaving a 'mother organisation' (like PCA) being a discussion on par with 'after Church coffee', in the sence that their message and life in their Church will most likely not change if they leave PCA... so why making it into big 'BREAKING' news? They might stay within PCO or they might leave, thats it.
Sure, as you say, a discussion of homosexuality and the Church (for example) is ofcourse a much bigger issue, but we always run a risk of focus on one single issue, and making it into something that seem to take on its own life in Church, and all we do is 'dealing' with that issue. Its not a question of the Church taking a stand (in the world) on a Biblical stand point (and that is ofcourse correct) but that we become a Church who can only focus on ONE aspect on being Christian, at anyone time. ...just my personal comment!
@@peterjaro6804 Thanks a lot for your comment brother Peter! Love your example about "sharing of coffee." Perfect encapsulation of how we end up taking our eyes off the prize and majoring on minors. Hilarious too and very, very familiar, sadly.
You and I will broadly agree that the onus of our Christian walk is solely upon ourselves as individual Christians. There can be no doubt about that or excuse too. The way the world is moving today, it is very important for us to be deliberate about what we believe in. At day's end, we are commanded, in the book of Revelation, to "get out of her, my people." There has come that time of apostasy where it doesn't really matter what my congregation/denomination says, it is about the true 'ecclesia,' which is what the church was always meant to be. We were always to be united in Christ, bound by the cement of love. Does that make sense?
We were always meant to be IN the world, but not OF the world. Whenever we lose sight of the Way and narrow path, we are in trouble regardless. Hope it makes sense. Love your viewpoint overall.
As for being a Presbyterian and thinking there are only "two centralized groups" under the Presbyterian umbrella, I'm surprised that you're not aware of the OPC (Orthodox Presbyterian Church) and EPC (Evangelical Presbyterian Church).
Do you know what confession of faith your group holds to?
"why do we as Presbytarians belong to any 'umbrella' organisation like PC and PCA anyway?"
Because doing so is definitional of Presbyterianism. Churches generally govern their internal affairs through their elders, and they come together for mutual support and accountability into one or more Presbyteries, which have at least a degree of authority over the operations of the local churches that comprise them. And depending on the size of those Presbyteries, they may or may not form a higher-level organization to oversee the Presbyteries (otherwise, as is the case in the CREC and the Vanguard Presbytery, the Presbytery itself is the "higher-level organization"), which higher-level organization has some degree of authority over the operations of its member Presbyteries. That's what defines Presbyterianism insofar as it relates to church government--you might as well have asked, "why do we as Baptists practice believers' baptism?"
And given that, it should be obvious why "we [in PCA churches, for example] care what happen[s] in PCA and who are leaving or staying." What one does reflects on all, and if the organization fails to respond to a church that's flagrantly defying both biblical teaching and the standards of the denomination (which is what's going on here), that also reflects poorly, both on the organization and its member churches.
BTW, in addition to the PCUSA (which you call the PC), the PCA, and the OPC and EPC mentioned in another comment, there are also the CREC, the Vanguard Presbytery, the RPCNA, ECO, and probably others I'm not thinking of.
I'm worried about the Protestant churches... that's why I have been looking into the Orthodox Church
We're called to defend the faith not run to a different faith.
I'm worried about getting athlete's foot so I'm thinking of chopping off my legs.
@@Phill0oldBest comment ever. :) I live about 20 minutes away from the People’s republic of Seattle, and no joke literally 80% of them are some flavor or degree of progressive. Luckily I was patient, and finally found two solid PCA Churches to choose from. You’re right, don’t give up there are good PCA Churches to be found, we just have to look and be patient. :)
Orthodox Church see Putin as a messiah.
@@ronlanter6906If a denom goes progressive, it isn't worth staying in. Brice's point is well taken.
Look at the UMC (my church left the UMC for what I hope are obvious reasons). There must always be an escape hatch if conditions don't improve.