DJ is still higher than Merab on the all time list. Very clearly. But the reason I compare their resumes so closely is because DJ is a perfect example of a fighter with tons of quantity, yet very little quality on his resume. Yet people will put him top 5 whereas every other top 5 fighter is there because of the quantity AND the quality of their wins. Merab on the other hand has both quality and quantity, with multiple all time great wins, yet he isn’t even considered for a top 15 mention? How is it that DJ is basically on every MMA Fan’s top 5, usually at the number 3 spot, but Merab ain’t even making it to number 15? It doesn’t make sense to me. Either way, title wins still matter. I exaggerate when i say they mean nothing. But they do not matter NEARLY as much as people think they do.
I understand you like quality wins but tbh I think you severely underate flyweight skill which you often don't do, also MMA is rapidly growing, the quality of fighters will only increase, just keep that in mind.
By your logic in terms of resume being ahead of winning a championship, dominating a division, avenging losses/having only close losses shouldn't Dustin Poirier be in your top 15? He's beaten multiple high level UFC champions, all time great fighters you have in your top 15 and multiple top contenders as well. He has better wins than DJ does, if he had won the belt I'm sure he would be considered a top 20 fighter with his resume. That alone proves a championship and a title reign matters as well as your resume. And with that logic how is Alex top 5 in your list for beating Khalil Rountree (number 8, best win is Smith lol), Jamahal Hill (no defenses, best win is Glover) and Jiri Prochazka (no defenses, 3 ufc wins) as his title defenses? Because you didnt have him top 5 previously for beating Strickland, Izzy and Jan which are his best wins (KO'd by Izzy in rematch and was down in the first fight, split decision with Jan). Having quality wins for your division (which DJ has) as well as title defenses, dominant performances/finishes against these guys is WHY none of them won the belt and why DJ belongs top 5 all time. Merab's only top-15 all time opponent is Aldo and he genuinely won via hugging.
Dustin is VERY close to my top 15 and despite him not having any title wins, I still have him above Charles Oliveira on my lightweight goat list. Dustin just has too many losses. And not just losses to all time greats. He’s lost to Johnson for example. He is close and maybe with another win would get there. As for pereira, I do think I may have rated him a bit too highly on my all time list, however, his best wins are over Blachowicz, Strickland and Adesanya, not them boys at 205. As far as Rountree goes, that Anthony smith win is a BAD BAAAD WIN. Smith was a marauder man. But still, Rountree is at least somebody we know is dangerous and good. He’s not great, the win isn’t going to do much for pereira, but it’s better than beating Tim elliott off of a season of TUF. As I said though, DJ is still goated, but if he’s 3 all time, merab has to at least be top 15. Merab may have just hugged Aldo, but Petr yan is arguably a top 3 bantamweight ever, cejudo is on his resume as well, O’Malley is still amazing and people were thinking he was going to go on a legendary run, and he’s got quantity.
When you rack up so many defences of course they’ll run out of people for you to fight. Cejudo, Benavidez, Dodson, Horiguchi are pretty good quality wins for that division just as much as Khalil is a decent win for Alex but not the singular level of win that Merab beating Cejudo or OMalley is. The quantity of championship wins against top contenders who did go on to have decent careers afterwards with no losses except for Cruz early on and Cejudo via close decision is just hard to ignore especially when we aren’t talking about a guy from the 2000s DJ was doing this until last year lol
@@lucastracymma8764Merab was also the underdog in O’Malley fight as well. People disregard Merab cause he’s boring but he’s on a 11 fight win streak beating 4 champions in a row. Aldo on a 3 fight win streak and after losing to Merab came back at the age of 37 and beat a ranked contender, 50-45 Peter Yan, Cejudo coming off a split decision in his previous fight and O’Malley who KO’d the previous champ.
@@lucastracymma8764 no way you got poirer over charles. Charles beat poirer and one of his best wins gaethje (a better version than the one dustin beat and hes also 1-1 against him) and probably the best dustin we have ever seen, a chandler better version than the one dustin beat, quicker than dustin did aswell. I dont see how hes lower than dustin when dustin has lost more in the divsion, lost to him in his absolute peak when everyone picked him, and never held a belt like charles.
No no no Lucas... People didn't like your list because you didn't mention SCHMITTY. He made the press conference massive. He said "F you" to the Georgians to their FACE!!! No he didn't get invited to the afterparty but thats because they didnt text him back. He is BADASS. GOAT
Who the fuck is SCHMITTY? I really don’t understand the joke/meme. Genuinely asking who is he? Am just clueless keep seeing him in comments and stuff and it fly’s over my head
Look beating 2 elite fighters who are past the age of 36 at BW years past their peak and then Sean o Malley doesn’t make you top 13 all time. But I will agree those are still good wins, he did dominate Petr yan which is really good and has a 13 fight win streak but still the minute merab looses where is he now? 13->>20-25?
Not gonna lie this is a flawless argument, I was with bedtime mma until you broke it down like this, you made so many good points you are only fooling yourself not to agree with this.
You have a point to be honest. Merab's win streak over Aldo, Yan, Cejudo, and O Malley is better than any win streak Jones, GSP, and DJ have. Merab is def in the top 15.
How? Gsp win streak was like 13 fights😅 he beat prime Hughes then went on to beat pen 2x, avenge both his losses, beats shields condit koshcheck Dias and went on one the longer title reigns ever to achieve double champ status against an older one eye bisping but still Bisping is still a good win nonetheless. But no by your logic Cejudo, Aldo, yan and Sean are better than all what GSP did in 13 fights. For one Sean isn’t that good all he’s done in his career is beat Aljo and chito that’s it so far hasn’t aged well. Petr yan is a really good dominant win, Cejudo and aldo are good wins too but it’s not the same as max beat Aldo. Cejudo and Aldo were past thier prime still good top ranked guys in their division but you can’t give merab the full credit of beating them especially when that Aldo fight was lame as heck.
Merabs has 2 good wins Yan and Cejudo. The stink fest against Aldo if anything is damaging win against an older out of prime aldo and Sean’s not on the level of any other champion Merab beat. Y’all need to slow down with pushing guys so high up the goat convo so fast. The minute he looses to Umar he’ll drop drastically. What’s next after Islam beats arman he’s top 3?
@@joeswanson5486 fight was a stinker but Aldo was on a 3 fight win streak and after losing to Merab he came back at the age of 37 and beat another ranked contender. Cejudo was coming off a close split decision with the champion at the time and he was the underdog in the O’Malley fight
People don't take into account how different winning by finish is from winning by a boring decision. You can't equate them unless you're a knuckle dragger.
People also discredit a lot of DJ's wins, when in reality his quality of opponents are actually pretty good. Him being the first champion of the division kind of skewed peoples perception of the level of competition but the truth is, skill wise they were elite for the most part. They may not have been big names but people like Ian McCall, Joseph Benavidez, John Dodson, Kyoji Horiguchi, and Henry Cejudo are all elite wins as well as Adriano Moraes
There is a difference in When you beat someone. Guys who were great at one point were not Always like that, be it the beginning or end of their careers or both. Meanwhile complete mid guys could have had 2-3 years in their prime of incredibly high mma. That's why we have rankings.
That's what happens with every single one of Lucas lists. Since he has that philosophy of “Quantity does not matter, only quality“ then whoever beat an “all time great“ skyrockets in the tier list. If Diego Lopes beats Topuria or Arman beats Arman, be prepared to see them jump into the top 5 because “QuALiTy OvEr QuaNtiTy BrO!!!!!”
If Merab will loose to Umar, it just proves Lucas point even further. The competition is so tough right now that it’s almost impossible to have win streaks like Anderson or DJ had back in the day. So when you compare them to old goats, what you have to consider first is quality of the wins. And again if Umar beats Merab, doesn’t mean he should take Merabs place or Merab shouldn’t be at top 15. Because he doesn’t have an insane streak like Merab.
@@chestermops3732 or or hear me out, Merabs wins might have been slightly overrated and miss out on massive context that lucas is choosing to overlook due to an agenda push and the first time he's gonna be tested by a guy that can grapple and is not ancient he could lose.
@@felipearaujo9673 I would agree I believe that quantity and quality should be seen as equal parts of an equation but hey that's his criteria and it's his list but I do think if the idea is quality of fighters is the only criteria and you believe these to be the best fighters of today you might as well just copy and paste the P4P list and call it a day. I think it's a little goofy to be like "These 4 wins are what made this guys career every other fight is not as important. When a lot of guys best performances are against guys who will be lost to time.
@@marcstamos8973Wins against "ancient" Aldo and Cejudo are still far more impressive than whoever DJ was fighting his entire career (except Cejudo obviously). Saying Merab wasn't tested, when he 50-45 one of the greatest bantam weights of all time is just delusional. Even If Umar beats him, that doesn't change anything, the same way Aldo is considered one of the goats while McGregor doesn't. And if Umar continous to win, then we just got another Volk Holloway situation. Your argument doesn't disprove anyting.
Title wins DO MATTER, they’re 5 round fights every time, it’s when the most pressure is on you, if you’re the champion you’re defending against the upcoming guy trying to climb the mountain you’ve already climbed, it’s so hard to stay on top, plenty of guys like Leon Edwards go on a 10 fight win streak but then lose after 2 defences, title defences are usually the biggest test
I agree that they matter. I exaggerate in the thumbnail of this video but they do not mean nearly as much as most people think. Yes defending a belt when the pressure is on you is tough, but I'd argue that the pressure is still massive in a number 1 contender fight, for example, a fight between a max and gaethje, where justin is one win away from getting the belt. The reason Leon is losing after 2 defenses is also because the level of competition at welterweight is insane these days. If he was fighting magny, burns or other fighters that are slightly lower level than belal / shavkat he would have continued to defend. Back in the day champions were 10 leagues ahead of most of their competition but because there are more people in the sport today, things are a lot more competitive.
@@lucastracymma8764 you get 1 nr 1 contender fight befire you fight for the belt. In the case of edwards he didnt even have one he just faught a layup and got the shot. Any good champ will have like 1 contender fight and then 4 pr 5 title fights you tell me whats more important
@@lucastracymma8764 Why is Horiguchi not a notable win? He beat Asakura and Kape in Rizin and I'm sure you'd count those two as notable wins on anyone's resume, double standards. Adriano Moraes 2x is also elite on DJ's resume, he's better than majority of current UFC flyweights if not all.
@@zorlockts5744Not really its the fact that lucas doesnt know how to compare old to new fighters. He compares them by skil and obv as sport continues to evolve so will the skill. What iss the most fair way to do it? Comapre how many top 5 10 and 15 wins they have.
@@bigbig54These people don't understand that in 10-20 years all these "elite" fighters will be considered just as mid because the sport has "evolved" and you just end up with every new guy that wins the belt getting put on the goat list. Dominance over your peers should always be considered first imo for this reason. Not to discredit Merab, because he is in fact building a strong case for himself. But I swear every 6 months there is a new goat contender because of this shallow line of thinking.
@@bigbig54it’s unfair to modern fighters to compare them 1 to 1 with older fighters. Older fighters are less skilled, so it was easier for champions to have long title reigns. It’s harder to get to the title now and it’s harder to keep it because fighters are so much better, meaning wins now mean more
I don't agree with resumes being the heaviest weight in regard to the GOAT conversation because it is an indirect way to measure skill. What I mean by this is what makes a resume stacked depends on how stacked the opponent's resume is which depends on how stacked their opponent's resume is and it keeps going until you reach the very first fights where there are no opponents to judge which breaks the logic of this way of thinking, because in that case, a GOAT beat a guy who beat a guy who beat a guy who beat no one special who beat no one at all. What makes someone good (and hence is a good look on a resume if that person is beat) is the actual skill displayed by the opponent. To say DJ didn't beat anyone note worthy because his opponents didnt beat anyone note worthy speaks more to their opportunity rather than their skill (this is also a common misunderstanding of what P4P means. Somebody moving up a weight class and becoming successful there isn't the sole factor of P4P status because P4P is a measure of skill, hence why physical differences are omitted in the ranking to keep it purely theoretic skill; generally when you move up, you're fighting a less skilled weight class). Using this logic, title fights, although they are definitely a factor, shouldn't be the heaviest weight either because again, it speaks to opportunity. Jon Jones needed 6 fights to obtain the title, whilst LW fighters go on long win streaks, sometimes with no undisputed title (Tony Ferguson, Beneil Dariush). That's why there's so much controversy in GOAT debates because no one has defined how to measure skill and instead look for factors that imply skill, but isn't the skill set itself. Khabib is probably the hottest take in the discussion (he is either too high or too low on the list, never perfectly placed) and is exactly because of these symptoms. Statistical data has to be looked at instead which is how badly did one beat the other and in what context, which is what other greats such as GSP, Jones, etc mention when talking about Khabib, Anderson, DJ, Aldo, and so on. This isn't to say factors that imply skill should just be ignored (title defenses, resumes, etc) but they definitely shouldn't be the heaviest weights that determines the GOAT rankings, and that skill set and context (i.e. dominance statistics) should only be used as tie breakers. Instead, these factors should be weighted fairly equally, but skill should take precedence (with such a weighting, something with a lot of title defenses can make them higher in the GOAT list than someone who is technically more skilled due to the sheer number of title defenses overpowering the weights. John Jones, for example, hasn't looked that impressive in his late LHW run, and although title defenses don't have the most weight, the sheer number of defenses he has had makes up for it, which is why he is consistently top 3. This logic also is why Lucas is justified to have Merab ranked that high, its just that he's using a criteria that has the holes I mentioned).
@@krishpangel3424 cool shit. tha was very well thought out. you've thought about this a little more deeply than i have. my take is that resume means nothing because simply looking at names and numbers on a wikipedia or tapology page is misleading. you elaborated on this much more than i have. for me, you have to watch the fights and study skillset and performance. also, the purpose of a fight is to neutralize your opponent while taking minimal damage yourself. so being undefeated carries the most weight for me. you cannot claim to be better than someone who is undefeated if you have taken a loss. and you cannot claim to be better than somene who has only lost by decision if you have been finished. therefore, khabib is CLEARLY the greatest of all time right now. khamzat, shavkat and topuria all have a chance to catch him if they can reach 25ish wins with 0 losses and remain dominant while doing so. all three of them have already taken more damage in their short careers than khabib ever did. but if they can reach some approximation of his record and level of domination then we can have a genuine g.o.a.t debate based on the minutia of their respective skillset and performances. until then, khabib is levels above everyone else. i dont think thats a hot take at all. its just common sense. all you have to do is actually study the fights objectively and you can not reach any other honest conclusion.
@@CRT4Dummiesgoat and most skilled are not the same. Dominance for sure is a large factor in ranking fighters however you still have to consider resume to a large extent also.
@@picklejuice-hb8kr i disagree. resume is something you go to as sort of a tiebreaker in the event that two fighters' careers are so similar that they are almost indistinguishable. for example, let's say islam never lost. let's pretend that fight in which he got tko'd never happened. he would be 26-0 now and sure, thats close enough to khabib's 29-0 to merit some consideration. we don't need to look at their entire resume. we only need one common opponent, in this case dustin poirier, to determine who was or is the better fighter. islam went to war with dustin, went into round 5 at two rounds apiece, needed a somewhat fluky scramble sequence at the end to find the submission, and looked like he had been hit by a car after the fight. meanwhile, khabib completely dominated dustin and subbed him in the 2nd or 3rd round with ease, without taking any damage whatsoever. we don't need to look any farther than this to see that khabib is clearly superior to islam. we can run the same thought experiment with GSP or Gay Jones. If we pretend they never had any losses they would also have 26-28 wins with no losses. Now they were all in their prime during different eras, different weight classes and no common opponents. Still, we only need to resort to looking at resumes as last resort. If we study their actual performances and skillset then we can arrive at a solid conclusion before taking 'resumes' into account. As stated by the OP, comparing resumes and trying to do mma math is likely to lead to an erroneous conclusion. It's fair enough to say that the sport evolves over time and the fighter in the most modern era and the most stacked division would be given a little extra credit for that fact. But this doesnt even come into consideration unless two fighters are soooo close in skillset and performance that we have no other means left to determine who was the better fighter other than to resort to mma math. and it's very rare that two fighters careers are so similar that we have to resort mma math and resumes to determine who is better. it truly is a casual thought process and way of going about making that determination.
Tom Brady isn’t the goat because he had the most wins in the regular season against great teams, he has the most wins when the lights are brightest and on the biggest stage
Barry Sanders is the g.o.a.t and he never sniffed a super bowl. Emmitt Smith has multiple super bowls and all time records and he's not even top 10 g.o.a.t
@@GoatOfMMAForeverit’s not DJs fault he fought in weaker eras of his division. You drop him in today and I still think he’s good and dominant. Are we really trying to act like he wouldn’t beat Royval or Pantoja?
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but you can't nail down a criteria and go specifically with that, theres many things to take into account. Eyeball test for example, when you watched DJ he looked the part of a top all time fighter by smoking the people he should. Title wins, win streaks, dominance, opponent quality, eye ball skills test, ect, all come into play.
Demetrious Johnson at 3 for beating a bunch of taxi drivers for title defenses🙄. He ducked TJ at 135,lost to Cruz dominantly. Figgy beat opponents of DJ more convincingly.
tbh i like the new age of mma youtube and the online mma fans community rethinking peoples greatness it gives a better light to new fighters and also exposes the truth about older ones like jones or dj or silva who dont really have such great resumes as people say, we'll definitely have a new consensus goat within the next 5 years i can almost guarantee, whether it be someone like islam ilia or someone else.
@ I can’t believe people like you actually enjoy watching dudes grind on each other and hang on for dear life while doing absolutely no damage 😂😂🤣🤣🤡🤡🫵🏼🫵🏼
It’s not fair to judge just based on competition cause clearly dj would still be flyweight champion he struck with rodtang at one is a black belt in bjj Henry he beat in the second fight robbery considering he thinks Petr yan beat Sean
@@MASTRA1 which means that now anyone who wins the belt eclipses the legacy of someone with 10 defenses? Theres bullshit title fights now too . Usman got masidal coming off a loss, edwards got colby off 1 win. Islam got poirer of 1 win. Ddp got izzy of a loss. Alex got jiri off 1 win. Jones is getting stipe of a loss. Sean got chito of 1 win. In 10 years new fans are gonna say the exact same thing that it padded their records.
@Jebronjarden I didn't say that but to pretend that winning the title now is anywhere near as easy as winning one back then is just dumb. Look at who Merab had to beat to get his title shot. Jose Aldo was given the belt upon the WEC and UFC merger.
I personally have DJ as the number 3 fighter of all time, and it’s not just because of the number of title wins. DJ is still to this day the most well-rounded and all around skilled fighter in MMA history. He’s the purest and most textbook perfect all around fighter we’ve ever had. I also believe his competition gets discredited too much. Many of his opponents didn’t have the chance to carve out an impressive legacy because DJ was so dominant and didn’t allow them to. It’s similar to how many all time great NBA players from the 90s don’t have championships because of Michael Jordan’s dominance.
Beating and holding against the cage are two different things that your metric fails to account for. Crowd perception is a real thing. One knockout win is worth 4 of Merabs wins.
@ShisuiGamer9 Good point. Who you beat and how you win both play a big factor. Look at Usmans win over Masvidal the second time, no one was considering him one of the greats. That win instantly catapulted him more than any of his other wins. When splitting hairs for the greats, championships matter for sure.
@@ShisuiGamer9 Styles and techniques play a factor too. Jones, DJ, and GSP weren't finishing machines but were furthering the sport through technique and having a complete game.
@@ShisuiGamer9 eh gsp was doing it in more dominant fashion. He was out wrestling some of the best wrestlers in ww history with absolute ease. He has a different level of dominance and you look at his best wins, he completely washed bj penn, beat the breaks off hughes, serra, bisping, dominant against nick. Its actual shut downs
We've seen him significantly struggle going up against bigger fighters so its hard to confidently say that when he's lost to cejudo(might be a robbery), cruz, and moraes
For me there are two characteristics that are necessary to establish who is in the Top 3 of the pound for pound. 1. The quality of the fighters you fought at the time (wins-losses) whether or not the fighter hold the title. 2. The wrestler who has won in more than one division and has beaten top wrestlers or won the title outright.
Listen, Alex pereria can make it to the top ten by beating a couple guys because he's knocking them out cold, merab is smudging everyone against the fence and throwing little knees to a decision, understand that it's quality over quantity, I get merab beat Yan, cejudo, Aldo and o malley, but did he finish, them? No, he couldn't even rock any of them with his punches
Sick of these goat debates, the only reason people do this is because they vicariously live through these fighters and having their favorite fighter high on a goat list makes them feel important and like they achieved something. Enjoy the sport and shut up, and go do something with your life that’ll make you proud, stop debating whether another successful man is high or low on a goat list
I think the main problem with lucas tracy’s criteria is title wins and the belt essentially mean nothing to him when they should at least count for something
they still mean something, but I say in the thumbnail that they don't mean anything to prove my point that they're extremely overrated in and of themselves
Belts are significantly less valuable. Wins over better opponents is better. Like whats more valuable Max win v Gaethje or Bisbing beating old man Dan Henderson for a title defense. Its skill > Belts.
@zarifinator1327 not in the way the fights played out. Horoguchi was undefeated in the ufc has a 19 and 2 record, dj doubled him in strikes and took him down 14 times and finished him late. Merab couldn't take aldo down once literally just hugged him against the fence for 15 minutes. Its not impressive he didnt display hes better in any way or that he has amazing fight iq he just held him and tried taking him down
Bro demetrious johnson is on almost everybody top 5 goat ranking not just because of his title defences, he is one of the (if not the) most skilled fighter to ever step in an octagon. It is truth that he did not have the better oposition back then, but still one of the best. Merab just won his title, let him defend it 2 or 3 times and then we talk about him being on top 10 or even top 15 goat
It just doesn’t make sense to put him over likes of makhachev and volkanovski, because he was styling on low level competition. That’s it. Merabs wins over prime Yan and O'Malley >>> DJ's Henry Cejudo win.
@@chestermops3732People really have a misconception of the flyweight division back in the day. Ian McCall was elite but everyone just ignores that win because he's not a big name. Also the fact that Flucas tries to discredit Horiguchi when he was a champion in Rizin with wins over Kape and Asakura is laughable. Dj also fought the tail end of his career up a weight class because One's flyweight division is 135. Moraes 2x, Benavidez 2x, Dodson 2x, Horiguchi, McCall, and Cejudo (arguably 2x) are all elite wins.
@@CorvoAttano21 So, the skill counts zero? The only thing that counts is who he beat?! Chris Weidman beat Anderson Silva, Lyoto Machida, Vitor Belfort and other nice wins so he is one of the goats? it doesnt make sense brother. If Merab is one of the goats with that argument, also other fighters should be on it. Doesn't make sense...
@@MagiicPT yes, it doesn’t matter how good a fighter is, being amazing doesn’t get you ranked higher all time, greatness is who you beat and how good they are, not how good you yourself are
Flukas the problem is you’re completely ignoring actual fighting ability there is zero argument that as a fighter merab sniffs the top 15 ITS NOT ALL ABOUT REUME this mindset is why we still have Jon Jones top 3 PFP in big 2024
I think the quality of the wins matter. Just because it's a W on the record doesn't make it equal with other wins. Would you put merab's hump fest over Aldo or O'malley over DJ's flying armbar on Ray Borg. Sure Aldo and O'malley are better fighters but not to the degree that humping them to a decision win is equal to a win like that. In the goat convo you gotta nitpick and if we are nitpicking merab is Belal Muhammed of bantamweight. (Belal has better wins than merab lol)
That 2 wins over 36 year old flyweight and featherweight who are years past their peak and then Sean the fraud o malley puts you top 13 all time? He did dominate yan and 13 fight win streak but now is ducking umar and had a stink fest with Aldo. Was his Aldo fight even a fight?
@@snandrew6094see and why is that? Because these guys were competitive. They beat each other which makes the divsion look crazy good. But when you look at it people will say dodson isn't a great win Because dj beat him 3 times. Pantoja beat moreno 3 times too but the only reason its a legacy win is because moreno held a belt. So yeah these guy s never held a belt and arebt looked at as amazing wins because dj never lost it
Tracey has good logic but I think going off this you can put Dustin Poirer in the top 15 convo (2x Holloway, 2x Eddie, 2x Conor, Chandler, Gaethje, Hooker, Miller, Green, Benoit). Is this not a top 15 resume if title wins are irrelevant?
@@eldgepollard5906 So does Anderson Silva though. Most of Dustin's losses are either during his "tadpole" days or against the best of the best. Consider, lightweight's roster size is about twice the size of most other rosters. Someone like Khabib was a 1 in 60 fighter whereas in the light heavyweight division you had Jones, Dc, Gustafsson and Rumble all competing near the same level in a division of 40 guys. 1 in 10 fighters.
Thank you Lucas. It’s called context btw. Wins NEED context. Did Aljo smoke TJ early with GNP after beating Yan twice?? HELLL NO HE DIDN’T! Just use logic guys. MMA is always evolving right? So currently MMA is as dangerous as it gets right? And bantamweight is one of the nastiest divisions right? Yet he beats everyone
Youre failing to bring up one of the biggest reasons in what makes someones goat shout valid. The eye test. How complete is this fighter? The goat conversation ih UFC is embarrassing lmao. Pfp DJ is clear of Merab, you can literally just watch the sport.
What you get wrong about the goat convo is you dont consider resumes in terms of how good opponents were solely at the time of the fight. For example, alex beat jiri twice. 10 years from now we might say two of alex’s best wins were over this dude who beat 50 year old glover and rakic. Or take his performance against rountree for example. That was a good ass version of rountree. He deserves credit for that win. But 10 years from now are we just gonna act like it doesnt add to his resume at all? We have to consider that if someone has 5 title defenses, or whatever the case may be, they were fighting championship level fighters who were at the very least worthy of a shot at the time. Its easy to look back 10 years later and call these opponents scrubs after their career has unfolded, but how good were they at the time of the fight?
But that's legit why, in 10 years rhe current top 10 will get passed because the sport evolves competition will become better then It's like football, when all these soccer players used to play plumbers and bus drivers. Yes you can't blame the because it was the competition at the time. But we can't compare that to now, where these people take the sport so seriously and are becoming way more well rounded( mma I'm speaking of now) But I do say being able to stay on top for a long time also matters
The problem is fighting isn't like other sports where you compete constantly and you have a good frame of reference for what level teams/players are at at any given time because they play enough to give you a statistically significant sample size to judge off of. MMA fights are too infrequent to get a good grasp of exactly how good someone is at that point in their career until they fight a couple more times afterwards. That's why you see such wild swings in opinion on quality of wins, and guys who are considered good wins can be looked back at as bums in retrospect if they go on a losing streak afterwards
@@zarifinator1327 And if you watch DJ vs Cejudo 2, you would see DJ won that fight. So no I don't think Cejudo would have the same reign, considering I don't think he actually beat DJ.
@@michaelshields6326 i agree that dj won that fight. It was still a close fight and Cejudo did much better than any of the cans that dj fought so you could easily say that Cejudo would have just as many defenses
pls stop embarrassing yourself lucas it’s GREATEST of all time not BEST. greatness takes their circumstances into account. in the nba u wouldn’t say that tony snell is higher than oscar robertson just bc he’s in a newer era, u would account for how dominant they were among the people they had around them
Merab defeating aldo, yan, omalley, henry 4 former champ is far greater than all of the opponent's quality of dj resume who defeated only one notable name in cejudo. Who is gonna compete with the name value of aldo? - benavidez, borg, adriano?
with more eras comming and going it will be hard to compare old to new fighters bc the sport is also evolving top talent from early ufc might struggle against mid fighters of modern era so titles are and always will be one of the the main factors in these goat rankings
DJ is still higher than Merab on the all time list. Very clearly. But the reason I compare their resumes so closely is because DJ is a perfect example of a fighter with tons of quantity, yet very little quality on his resume. Yet people will put him top 5 whereas every other top 5 fighter is there because of the quantity AND the quality of their wins. Merab on the other hand has both quality and quantity, with multiple all time great wins, yet he isn’t even considered for a top 15 mention? How is it that DJ is basically on every MMA Fan’s top 5, usually at the number 3 spot, but Merab ain’t even making it to number 15? It doesn’t make sense to me. Either way, title wins still matter. I exaggerate when i say they mean nothing. But they do not matter NEARLY as much as people think they do.
You're going insane I think the hair transplant went a bit too deep to your brain
*tons of quantity
"with tons of quality, with very little quality" reread and try again!
I understand you like quality wins but tbh I think you severely underate flyweight skill which you often don't do, also MMA is rapidly growing, the quality of fighters will only increase, just keep that in mind.
merab shouldn't even be top 15 in his division, worst champ ever he's making jon look good
Bedtime has 24 hours to respond.
You mean Guru.
give him 15 minutes 💯 people forget man!!!!
No one cares about him he built his whole channel of mma gurus content and acts to famous to respond to him hope his channel fails
Who cares about bedtime bro built his channel of copying mma guru and is to famous to respond to him hope his channel F4 ils
He did 😂
Lucas vs Bedtime is the goat mma rivalry
atomweight truly is the best division
@@clkgtr12 pasty white boy devision
Flukas by big meaty hooks
Straight fax
Hat looking Gritty like 🎶Old Man Stippy🎶
The Professional OWNS Pooatan.
leaves for a couple months, returns with old head hats, refuses to elaborate.
💪
His hair transplant is still healing
Dude got a hair transplant and didn’t want anyone to see him post op
@@yanmagno3lmao
Let bro transplant in peace
Not Flukas beefing with the Goat Bedtime 😭😭
Goat? Flukas is the only and one Goat, Bedtime used PEDS
Bedtime is just a contrarian weirdo. But flukas is a spaz too
@@samirzetinaVEDs, Voice enhancing drugs. He’s a cheat that’s why his impressions are so good
@@saulspanco854 chill on both of them
Flukas got his career ended by Bedtime once... he really wants to risk it happening twice?
Bro put "7 other fighters" on merabs resume to statpad him 😭😭
Yeah 7 of those dj wins 😂
"Henry cejudo and 10 other title defenses"
@23373 the 10 others being cans.
@@callumellery456 exactly
Kyoji Horiguchi’s a can? What the fuck???
By your logic in terms of resume being ahead of winning a championship, dominating a division, avenging losses/having only close losses shouldn't Dustin Poirier be in your top 15? He's beaten multiple high level UFC champions, all time great fighters you have in your top 15 and multiple top contenders as well. He has better wins than DJ does, if he had won the belt I'm sure he would be considered a top 20 fighter with his resume. That alone proves a championship and a title reign matters as well as your resume. And with that logic how is Alex top 5 in your list for beating Khalil Rountree (number 8, best win is Smith lol), Jamahal Hill (no defenses, best win is Glover) and Jiri Prochazka (no defenses, 3 ufc wins) as his title defenses? Because you didnt have him top 5 previously for beating Strickland, Izzy and Jan which are his best wins (KO'd by Izzy in rematch and was down in the first fight, split decision with Jan). Having quality wins for your division (which DJ has) as well as title defenses, dominant performances/finishes against these guys is WHY none of them won the belt and why DJ belongs top 5 all time. Merab's only top-15 all time opponent is Aldo and he genuinely won via hugging.
Dustin is VERY close to my top 15 and despite him not having any title wins, I still have him above Charles Oliveira on my lightweight goat list. Dustin just has too many losses. And not just losses to all time greats. He’s lost to Johnson for example. He is close and maybe with another win would get there. As for pereira, I do think I may have rated him a bit too highly on my all time list, however, his best wins are over Blachowicz, Strickland and Adesanya, not them boys at 205. As far as Rountree goes, that Anthony smith win is a BAD BAAAD WIN. Smith was a marauder man. But still, Rountree is at least somebody we know is dangerous and good. He’s not great, the win isn’t going to do much for pereira, but it’s better than beating Tim elliott off of a season of TUF. As I said though, DJ is still goated, but if he’s 3 all time, merab has to at least be top 15. Merab may have just hugged Aldo, but Petr yan is arguably a top 3 bantamweight ever, cejudo is on his resume as well, O’Malley is still amazing and people were thinking he was going to go on a legendary run, and he’s got quantity.
When you rack up so many defences of course they’ll run out of people for you to fight. Cejudo, Benavidez, Dodson, Horiguchi are pretty good quality wins for that division just as much as Khalil is a decent win for Alex but not the singular level of win that Merab beating Cejudo or OMalley is. The quantity of championship wins against top contenders who did go on to have decent careers afterwards with no losses except for Cruz early on and Cejudo via close decision is just hard to ignore especially when we aren’t talking about a guy from the 2000s DJ was doing this until last year lol
@@lucastracymma8764Merab was also the underdog in O’Malley fight as well. People disregard Merab cause he’s boring but he’s on a 11 fight win streak beating 4 champions in a row. Aldo on a 3 fight win streak and after losing to Merab came back at the age of 37 and beat a ranked contender, 50-45 Peter Yan, Cejudo coming off a split decision in his previous fight and O’Malley who KO’d the previous champ.
@@lucastracymma8764 no way you got poirer over charles. Charles beat poirer and one of his best wins gaethje (a better version than the one dustin beat and hes also 1-1 against him) and probably the best dustin we have ever seen, a chandler better version than the one dustin beat, quicker than dustin did aswell. I dont see how hes lower than dustin when dustin has lost more in the divsion, lost to him in his absolute peak when everyone picked him, and never held a belt like charles.
They going paragraph for paragraph on this one🤣
We need a Bedtime vs Lucastracy vs Guru 5 hour goat masterdebate🤤🤤
Don’t try to insert Guru into this
@@Hosae-v4c true, Guru is a level above the other two
@@snandrew6094 LMAOOOO nice one
@@snandrew6094 nice try Guru
we do NOT need guru in there 💀
lucas tracy with his crafty goat list
He has good logic
18:05 That's fair. Dustin fought Justin two times and lost the second. So there's something to be said about beating someone again.
"Title wins don't matter"
*doesn't put Ngannou in top 15*
His wins over JDS and Velasquez are both extremely washed and those are some of his biggest non title wins
@@darthmaul8278Overeem as well
@@darthmaul8278 But Cejudo who hadn't won a fight in 4 years is such a good win right?
@@SublineYThe had just taken champ to split decision. Still pretty good
@@SublineYT he had a close split decision with the champ a few months prior lol
No no no Lucas... People didn't like your list because you didn't mention SCHMITTY. He made the press conference massive. He said "F you" to the Georgians to their FACE!!! No he didn't get invited to the afterparty but thats because they didnt text him back. He is BADASS. GOAT
Who the fuck is SCHMITTY? I really don’t understand the joke/meme. Genuinely asking who is he? Am just clueless keep seeing him in comments and stuff and it fly’s over my head
Dude imaaaagine not knowing who SCHMITTY is, that would suck so bad dude
@@redghost1567lol it’s Sean o Malley’s friend that’s on his podcast a bunch.
This is the plan:
Bedtime responds
They have a live debate stream
Lucas returns to streaming LFG
Flukas Glazy getting in a beef with all of MMA RUclips months after retiring is true goat shit
on crip
Lucas gets my respect for being one of the only RUclipsrs to give Merab his due
Look beating 2 elite fighters who are past the age of 36 at BW years past their peak and then Sean o Malley doesn’t make you top 13 all time. But I will agree those are still good wins, he did dominate Petr yan which is really good and has a 13 fight win streak but still the minute merab looses where is he now? 13->>20-25?
merab is bw goat but still a bitch tho
Dricus is top 10 all time, and is the middleweight GOAT
I'm so grateful Dricus isn't in a team sport coz he would never get the respect he deserves.
DJ : flirting
Merab : sexual harassment
Not gonna lie this is a flawless argument, I was with bedtime mma until you broke it down like this, you made so many good points you are only fooling yourself not to agree with this.
Have you watched merab fight
@@Truehokagedeldidn’t know entertaining fights directly effects your goat status
@@ethanchartrand3299 it doesn’t your fight ability does tho
@@Truehokagedelability to win.
@ no actual skill as a fighter
You have a point to be honest. Merab's win streak over Aldo, Yan, Cejudo, and O Malley is better than any win streak Jones, GSP, and DJ have. Merab is def in the top 15.
A stinker performance against Aldo and a win over Cejudo who hadn't won a fight in 4 years? No chance Merab is top 15, at best top 25.
How? Gsp win streak was like 13 fights😅 he beat prime Hughes then went on to beat pen 2x, avenge both his losses, beats shields condit koshcheck Dias and went on one the longer title reigns ever to achieve double champ status against an older one eye bisping but still Bisping is still a good win nonetheless. But no by your logic Cejudo, Aldo, yan and Sean are better than all what GSP did in 13 fights. For one Sean isn’t that good all he’s done in his career is beat Aljo and chito that’s it so far hasn’t aged well. Petr yan is a really good dominant win, Cejudo and aldo are good wins too but it’s not the same as max beat Aldo. Cejudo and Aldo were past thier prime still good top ranked guys in their division but you can’t give merab the full credit of beating them especially when that Aldo fight was lame as heck.
Merabs has 2 good wins Yan and Cejudo. The stink fest against Aldo if anything is damaging win against an older out of prime aldo and Sean’s not on the level of any other champion Merab beat. Y’all need to slow down with pushing guys so high up the goat convo so fast. The minute he looses to Umar he’ll drop drastically. What’s next after Islam beats arman he’s top 3?
@@joeswanson5486 fight was a stinker but Aldo was on a 3 fight win streak and after losing to Merab he came back at the age of 37 and beat another ranked contender. Cejudo was coming off a close split decision with the champion at the time and he was the underdog in the O’Malley fight
"cejudo"
People just don’t take into account how good some wins are compared to others
People don't take into account how different winning by finish is from winning by a boring decision. You can't equate them unless you're a knuckle dragger.
People also discredit a lot of DJ's wins, when in reality his quality of opponents are actually pretty good. Him being the first champion of the division kind of skewed peoples perception of the level of competition but the truth is, skill wise they were elite for the most part. They may not have been big names but people like Ian McCall, Joseph Benavidez, John Dodson, Kyoji Horiguchi, and Henry Cejudo are all elite wins as well as Adriano Moraes
There is a difference in When you beat someone. Guys who were great at one point were not Always like that, be it the beginning or end of their careers or both. Meanwhile complete mid guys could have had 2-3 years in their prime of incredibly high mma. That's why we have rankings.
But but but but DJ beat the goliath known as Wilson Reis 😂😂
Lucas Tracy vs Bedtime at UFC 310 replacement main event 💯 - Book it Dana its a BADASS fight
Would sell more ppvs than Belal or Jones😂
@@rfewer Definetely a better fight than Jones v Stipe. Bedtime by UD.
@@balajonn flucas by glazing
Umar beating merab might scramble Lucas’ entire list/brain I can’t wait
That's what happens with every single one of Lucas lists. Since he has that philosophy of “Quantity does not matter, only quality“ then whoever beat an “all time great“ skyrockets in the tier list. If Diego Lopes beats Topuria or Arman beats Arman, be prepared to see them jump into the top 5 because “QuALiTy OvEr QuaNtiTy BrO!!!!!”
If Merab will loose to Umar, it just proves Lucas point even further. The competition is so tough right now that it’s almost impossible to have win streaks like Anderson or DJ had back in the day. So when you compare them to old goats, what you have to consider first is quality of the wins. And again if Umar beats Merab, doesn’t mean he should take Merabs place or Merab shouldn’t be at top 15. Because he doesn’t have an insane streak like Merab.
@@chestermops3732 or or hear me out, Merabs wins might have been slightly overrated and miss out on massive context that lucas is choosing to overlook due to an agenda push and the first time he's gonna be tested by a guy that can grapple and is not ancient he could lose.
@@felipearaujo9673 I would agree I believe that quantity and quality should be seen as equal parts of an equation but hey that's his criteria and it's his list but I do think if the idea is quality of fighters is the only criteria and you believe these to be the best fighters of today you might as well just copy and paste the P4P list and call it a day. I think it's a little goofy to be like "These 4 wins are what made this guys career every other fight is not as important. When a lot of guys best performances are against guys who will be lost to time.
@@marcstamos8973Wins against "ancient" Aldo and Cejudo are still far more impressive than whoever DJ was fighting his entire career (except Cejudo obviously). Saying Merab wasn't tested, when he 50-45 one of the greatest bantam weights of all time is just delusional. Even If Umar beats him, that doesn't change anything, the same way Aldo is considered one of the goats while McGregor doesn't. And if Umar continous to win, then we just got another Volk Holloway situation. Your argument doesn't disprove anyting.
Title wins DO MATTER, they’re 5 round fights every time, it’s when the most pressure is on you, if you’re the champion you’re defending against the upcoming guy trying to climb the mountain you’ve already climbed, it’s so hard to stay on top, plenty of guys like Leon Edwards go on a 10 fight win streak but then lose after 2 defences, title defences are usually the biggest test
😂 none of them is leon Edward bro they are tim Eliot 😂😂😂
I agree that they matter. I exaggerate in the thumbnail of this video but they do not mean nearly as much as most people think. Yes defending a belt when the pressure is on you is tough, but I'd argue that the pressure is still massive in a number 1 contender fight, for example, a fight between a max and gaethje, where justin is one win away from getting the belt. The reason Leon is losing after 2 defenses is also because the level of competition at welterweight is insane these days. If he was fighting magny, burns or other fighters that are slightly lower level than belal / shavkat he would have continued to defend. Back in the day champions were 10 leagues ahead of most of their competition but because there are more people in the sport today, things are a lot more competitive.
@@lucastracymma8764thank god you spell this out for the ppl it’s simply logic
@@lucastracymma8764 you get 1 nr 1 contender fight befire you fight for the belt. In the case of edwards he didnt even have one he just faught a layup and got the shot. Any good champ will have like 1 contender fight and then 4 pr 5 title fights you tell me whats more important
@@lucastracymma8764 Why is Horiguchi not a notable win? He beat Asakura and Kape in Rizin and I'm sure you'd count those two as notable wins on anyone's resume, double standards. Adriano Moraes 2x is also elite on DJ's resume, he's better than majority of current UFC flyweights if not all.
Topuria’s resume is insane already, beating Emmit, Volk, and Max back to back to back is crazy
lucas tracy lowkey has this figured out but mma fans are too biased
No one can rlly provide good arguments against him 😂 in terms of Ws and Ls
@@jioreyes5838yeah it’s just “but but but … DJ is a legend man 😢 don’t disrespect him man” or they just take Lucas as a joke
@@zorlockts5744Not really its the fact that lucas doesnt know how to compare old to new fighters.
He compares them by skil and obv as sport continues to evolve so will the skill.
What iss the most fair way to do it?
Comapre how many top 5 10 and 15 wins they have.
@@bigbig54These people don't understand that in 10-20 years all these "elite" fighters will be considered just as mid because the sport has "evolved" and you just end up with every new guy that wins the belt getting put on the goat list. Dominance over your peers should always be considered first imo for this reason. Not to discredit Merab, because he is in fact building a strong case for himself. But I swear every 6 months there is a new goat contender because of this shallow line of thinking.
@@bigbig54it’s unfair to modern fighters to compare them 1 to 1 with older fighters. Older fighters are less skilled, so it was easier for champions to have long title reigns. It’s harder to get to the title now and it’s harder to keep it because fighters are so much better, meaning wins now mean more
Ray Borg is one of the best P4P wins you can ever have bro slow your role…
Nah bro, Ali Bagautinov is a killer mannnnn
Flukas with another 10-7
I don't agree with resumes being the heaviest weight in regard to the GOAT conversation because it is an indirect way to measure skill. What I mean by this is what makes a resume stacked depends on how stacked the opponent's resume is which depends on how stacked their opponent's resume is and it keeps going until you reach the very first fights where there are no opponents to judge which breaks the logic of this way of thinking, because in that case, a GOAT beat a guy who beat a guy who beat a guy who beat no one special who beat no one at all. What makes someone good (and hence is a good look on a resume if that person is beat) is the actual skill displayed by the opponent.
To say DJ didn't beat anyone note worthy because his opponents didnt beat anyone note worthy speaks more to their opportunity rather than their skill (this is also a common misunderstanding of what P4P means. Somebody moving up a weight class and becoming successful there isn't the sole factor of P4P status because P4P is a measure of skill, hence why physical differences are omitted in the ranking to keep it purely theoretic skill; generally when you move up, you're fighting a less skilled weight class).
Using this logic, title fights, although they are definitely a factor, shouldn't be the heaviest weight either because again, it speaks to opportunity. Jon Jones needed 6 fights to obtain the title, whilst LW fighters go on long win streaks, sometimes with no undisputed title (Tony Ferguson, Beneil Dariush). That's why there's so much controversy in GOAT debates because no one has defined how to measure skill and instead look for factors that imply skill, but isn't the skill set itself. Khabib is probably the hottest take in the discussion (he is either too high or too low on the list, never perfectly placed) and is exactly because of these symptoms. Statistical data has to be looked at instead which is how badly did one beat the other and in what context, which is what other greats such as GSP, Jones, etc mention when talking about Khabib, Anderson, DJ, Aldo, and so on.
This isn't to say factors that imply skill should just be ignored (title defenses, resumes, etc) but they definitely shouldn't be the heaviest weights that determines the GOAT rankings, and that skill set and context (i.e. dominance statistics) should only be used as tie breakers. Instead, these factors should be weighted fairly equally, but skill should take precedence (with such a weighting, something with a lot of title defenses can make them higher in the GOAT list than someone who is technically more skilled due to the sheer number of title defenses overpowering the weights. John Jones, for example, hasn't looked that impressive in his late LHW run, and although title defenses don't have the most weight, the sheer number of defenses he has had makes up for it, which is why he is consistently top 3. This logic also is why Lucas is justified to have Merab ranked that high, its just that he's using a criteria that has the holes I mentioned).
dude, thats way too much to read. try using paragraphs.
i do absolutely agree with your first two sentences 💯
@@CRT4Dummies Thanks bro, I edited the comment so it's more readable with paragraphs
@@krishpangel3424 cool shit. tha was very well thought out. you've thought about this a little more deeply than i have.
my take is that resume means nothing because simply looking at names and numbers on a wikipedia or tapology page is misleading. you elaborated on this much more than i have.
for me, you have to watch the fights and study skillset and performance. also, the purpose of a fight is to neutralize your opponent while taking minimal damage yourself.
so being undefeated carries the most weight for me. you cannot claim to be better than someone who is undefeated if you have taken a loss. and you cannot claim to be better than somene who has only lost by decision if you have been finished.
therefore, khabib is CLEARLY the greatest of all time right now. khamzat, shavkat and topuria all have a chance to catch him if they can reach 25ish wins with 0 losses and remain dominant while doing so.
all three of them have already taken more damage in their short careers than khabib ever did. but if they can reach some approximation of his record and level of domination then we can have a genuine g.o.a.t debate based on the minutia of their respective skillset and performances.
until then, khabib is levels above everyone else. i dont think thats a hot take at all. its just common sense. all you have to do is actually study the fights objectively and you can not reach any other honest conclusion.
@@CRT4Dummiesgoat and most skilled are not the same. Dominance for sure is a large factor in ranking fighters however you still have to consider resume to a large extent also.
@@picklejuice-hb8kr i disagree. resume is something you go to as sort of a tiebreaker in the event that two fighters' careers are so similar that they are almost indistinguishable.
for example, let's say islam never lost. let's pretend that fight in which he got tko'd never happened. he would be 26-0 now and sure, thats close enough to khabib's 29-0 to merit some consideration. we don't need to look at their entire resume. we only need one common opponent, in this case dustin poirier, to determine who was or is the better fighter. islam went to war with dustin, went into round 5 at two rounds apiece, needed a somewhat fluky scramble sequence at the end to find the submission, and looked like he had been hit by a car after the fight. meanwhile, khabib completely dominated dustin and subbed him in the 2nd or 3rd round with ease, without taking any damage whatsoever.
we don't need to look any farther than this to see that khabib is clearly superior to islam.
we can run the same thought experiment with GSP or Gay Jones. If we pretend they never had any losses they would also have 26-28 wins with no losses. Now they were all in their prime during different eras, different weight classes and no common opponents.
Still, we only need to resort to looking at resumes as last resort. If we study their actual performances and skillset then we can arrive at a solid conclusion before taking 'resumes' into account.
As stated by the OP, comparing resumes and trying to do mma math is likely to lead to an erroneous conclusion. It's fair enough to say that the sport evolves over time and the fighter in the most modern era and the most stacked division would be given a little extra credit for that fact. But this doesnt even come into consideration unless two fighters are soooo close in skillset and performance that we have no other means left to determine who was the better fighter other than to resort to mma math.
and it's very rare that two fighters careers are so similar that we have to resort mma math and resumes to determine who is better. it truly is a casual thought process and way of going about making that determination.
Tom Brady isn’t the goat because he had the most wins in the regular season against great teams, he has the most wins when the lights are brightest and on the biggest stage
True. But were the lights brighter when Max fought Gaethje at UFC 300 or when DJ fought Ali Bugathinov at whenever the heck that happened?
Different sports. Not really comparable.
what??? You know this was stupid.
Barry Sanders is the g.o.a.t and he never sniffed a super bowl.
Emmitt Smith has multiple super bowls and all time records and he's not even top 10 g.o.a.t
@@GoatOfMMAForeverit’s not DJs fault he fought in weaker eras of his division. You drop him in today and I still think he’s good and dominant. Are we really trying to act like he wouldn’t beat Royval or Pantoja?
The joy I get when I see a Lucas Tracy Video in my sub box 😪
Marab is a SMUDGE GRAPPLER. You’re not allowed in top 100 if you are stalling holding your opponent down doing no damage or threatening any subs.
Goatlal at 1 begs to differ
I'm sorry but no one's really been able to stop it now either. Must be effective
This is the correct take
Bedtime had the interim belt for the Flukas retirement
I don’t think Bedtime can name 5 of DJ defences without Google
Lol bro so mad he typing multiple comments 😂😂😂
I don’t think you can go to bed at night without letting one out to your Topouria poster while Islam is doing your mom upstairs.
@ Lol bro you’re coping Yk bedtime had an awful take
Lucas the type of guy to start levitating toward the smell of pie cooling on a windowsill
Lucas doesn’t eat anything that’s not in his cookbook
is he mary poppins or something?
Bedtime actually had the most casual fan pleasing list 😂
Topuria fan calling other people casuals 😂
Nah bedtime had the right list. Maybe dj a little lower but outside of that his list is the correct list
“Topuria corner”
@@zarifinator1327 “the correct list” about a subjective topic…
@@lordzimmermanhow is being a topuria fan casual?
the eye test is also really important
Chandler bought his kids on Ebay.
Facts
Bedtime and Fluckas having a legendary midoff
Fair everything you’re saying true
Volk beat max 3 times but ilia chinned volk too. Makes it kind of a moot point bro
Bro is being salty like Pyfer because Bedtime cooked him
Flukas just got done driving a tractor in peaches and creamville
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but you can't nail down a criteria and go specifically with that, theres many things to take into account. Eyeball test for example, when you watched DJ he looked the part of a top all time fighter by smoking the people he should. Title wins, win streaks, dominance, opponent quality, eye ball skills test, ect, all come into play.
Demetrious Johnson at 3 for beating a bunch of taxi drivers for title defenses🙄. He ducked TJ at 135,lost to Cruz dominantly. Figgy beat opponents of DJ more convincingly.
@@harshatomas835Benavidez, Dodson, McCall, Cejudo and Moraes are all elite wins.
tbh i like the new age of mma youtube and the online mma fans community rethinking peoples greatness it gives a better light to new fighters and also exposes the truth about older ones like jones or dj or silva who dont really have such great resumes as people say, we'll definitely have a new consensus goat within the next 5 years i can almost guarantee, whether it be someone like islam ilia or someone else.
Yapping starts at 0:01 , ends at 20:15
This rivalry with bedtime is better than breaking bad season 5
Lucas disappears for a month and comes back wearing hats and a rejuvenated hairline, that can't be a coincidence 🤔
He's gotta let that transplant breathe
Merab hasn't beaten anyone is the thing. He's just held on to them long enough to "win"
😂😂😂 i cant believe people like you watch ufc and actualy habe an opinion😂😂😂
@niconicoo5661 I can’t believe you like watching dudes grind on each other and hang on for dear life while doing no actual damage 😂😂🤣🤣🫵🏼🫵🏼🤡🤡
@ I can’t believe people like you actually enjoy watching dudes grind on each other and hang on for dear life while doing absolutely no damage 😂😂🤣🤣🤡🤡🫵🏼🫵🏼
@ I can’t believe people like you actually like watching that boring ass lay and pray style 😂😂🤣🤣 holding on for dear life doing zero damage 😂🤣
It’s unfair on past fighters to not judge relative to era because the sport will continue advancing and fighters can’t control when they’re born.
Its unfair to modern fighters to pretend the competition they beat is on the same level as the cans fast tracked to titles in early 2005-2010s
@@MASTRA1 exactly lol everybody wants to be fair to the old guys never the new ones
It’s not fair to judge just based on competition cause clearly dj would still be flyweight champion he struck with rodtang at one is a black belt in bjj Henry he beat in the second fight robbery considering he thinks Petr yan beat Sean
@@MASTRA1 which means that now anyone who wins the belt eclipses the legacy of someone with 10 defenses? Theres bullshit title fights now too . Usman got masidal coming off a loss, edwards got colby off 1 win. Islam got poirer of 1 win. Ddp got izzy of a loss. Alex got jiri off 1 win. Jones is getting stipe of a loss. Sean got chito of 1 win. In 10 years new fans are gonna say the exact same thing that it padded their records.
@Jebronjarden I didn't say that but to pretend that winning the title now is anywhere near as easy as winning one back then is just dumb. Look at who Merab had to beat to get his title shot. Jose Aldo was given the belt upon the WEC and UFC merger.
I personally have DJ as the number 3 fighter of all time, and it’s not just because of the number of title wins. DJ is still to this day the most well-rounded and all around skilled fighter in MMA history. He’s the purest and most textbook perfect all around fighter we’ve ever had.
I also believe his competition gets discredited too much. Many of his opponents didn’t have the chance to carve out an impressive legacy because DJ was so dominant and didn’t allow them to. It’s similar to how many all time great NBA players from the 90s don’t have championships because of Michael Jordan’s dominance.
13:32 sounds like Pereira, who is top 5 in his list
Literally lol
Like the exact same situation
Yeah you got him there ngl
bruh pereiras wins are against champions don't make that comparison 🤦♂️🤦♂️
@ ok they got injured, they were clearly the best in the division
Beating and holding against the cage are two different things that your metric fails to account for. Crowd perception is a real thing. One knockout win is worth 4 of Merabs wins.
How you win shouldn’t matter in the slightest. 90% of GSP’s defenses were decisions
@ShisuiGamer9 Good point. Who you beat and how you win both play a big factor. Look at Usmans win over Masvidal the second time, no one was considering him one of the greats. That win instantly catapulted him more than any of his other wins. When splitting hairs for the greats, championships matter for sure.
@@ShisuiGamer9 Styles and techniques play a factor too. Jones, DJ, and GSP weren't finishing machines but were furthering the sport through technique and having a complete game.
@@ShisuiGamer9 Speaking of Masvidal. His win over Askren got him 2 title shots. Maybe how you win shouldn't matter, but it definitely does.
@@ShisuiGamer9 eh gsp was doing it in more dominant fashion. He was out wrestling some of the best wrestlers in ww history with absolute ease. He has a different level of dominance and you look at his best wins, he completely washed bj penn, beat the breaks off hughes, serra, bisping, dominant against nick. Its actual shut downs
Demetrious johnson would smoke merab in a fight , merab is not better than mighty mouse
We've seen him significantly struggle going up against bigger fighters so its hard to confidently say that when he's lost to cejudo(might be a robbery), cruz, and moraes
Mini mouse would get kneed to the face
Demetrious Johnson won’t beat Yan, let alone Merab. Heck Demetrious Johnson would actually lose to Dieveson Figueredo
Ddps resume is really good too..
Yep, If he beats Khamzat, he's top 15 and MW GOAT
BIG DIFFERENCE.. DJ didn't fight/beat anybody
Merab did and will
Huh.. cejudo, dodson are on both resumes?
@@haygraykthose wins ain’t nearly enough to have you top 5 OAT
@@rfewer i agree. But what he said is still wrong. Merab and DJ have two of the same opponents.
He beat a better cejudo arguably twice, dodson, benavidez, horoguchi, elliot, morales. And he got the quantity wins
@@haygrayk Dodson? what has he done?
DJ beat the rookie ufc Cejudo, and then lost to him in the rematch
For me there are two characteristics that are necessary to establish who is in the Top 3 of the pound for pound.
1. The quality of the fighters you fought at the time (wins-losses) whether or not the fighter hold the title.
2. The wrestler who has won in more than one division and has beaten top wrestlers or won the title outright.
Listen, Alex pereria can make it to the top ten by beating a couple guys because he's knocking them out cold, merab is smudging everyone against the fence and throwing little knees to a decision, understand that it's quality over quantity, I get merab beat Yan, cejudo, Aldo and o malley, but did he finish, them? No, he couldn't even rock any of them with his punches
Sick of these goat debates, the only reason people do this is because they vicariously live through these fighters and having their favorite fighter high on a goat list makes them feel important and like they achieved something. Enjoy the sport and shut up, and go do something with your life that’ll make you proud, stop debating whether another successful man is high or low on a goat list
Bedtime already 50-44’d you lucas , let it go man
Brother I'm new fan of this sport your videos really help me in understanding of the scene
I think the main problem with lucas tracy’s criteria is title wins and the belt essentially mean nothing to him when they should at least count for something
they still mean something, but I say in the thumbnail that they don't mean anything to prove my point that they're extremely overrated in and of themselves
Belts are significantly less valuable. Wins over better opponents is better. Like whats more valuable Max win v Gaethje or Bisbing beating old man Dan Henderson for a title defense. Its skill > Belts.
@@haygrayk whats more valuable beating horoguchi for the belt or beating washed aldo by hugging for 3 rounds.
@@Jebronjarden Beating 36 year old Aldo is better than beating Horiguchi lmfao
@zarifinator1327 not in the way the fights played out. Horoguchi was undefeated in the ufc has a 19 and 2 record, dj doubled him in strikes and took him down 14 times and finished him late. Merab couldn't take aldo down once literally just hugged him against the fence for 15 minutes. Its not impressive he didnt display hes better in any way or that he has amazing fight iq he just held him and tried taking him down
Love these kind of videos
find me someone as obssesed with the Goat list as Lucas
Bro talks about quality of wins being number one criteria Izzy should be top 5 then, the win against Alex is the best aged win in the ufc
4:57 That's al iaquinta on the left not RDA...
Clearly a small mistake. He still won the belt against al iaquinta
Bedtime and Lucas going back and forth like Kendrick and drake 😂
Crafty vet video here from Lucas
MOST ppl feel Volk LOST the 2nd Holloway fight.
3:25 🤣🤣
I’ve genuinely thought your hat had a hole for your hair for the last months
Bro demetrious johnson is on almost everybody top 5 goat ranking not just because of his title defences, he is one of the (if not the) most skilled fighter to ever step in an octagon. It is truth that he did not have the better oposition back then, but still one of the best. Merab just won his title, let him defend it 2 or 3 times and then we talk about him being on top 10 or even top 15 goat
It just doesn’t make sense to put him over likes of makhachev and volkanovski, because he was styling on low level competition. That’s it. Merabs wins over prime Yan and O'Malley >>> DJ's Henry Cejudo win.
It doesn’t matter if DJ was literally the most well rounded most skilled fighter we have ever and will ever see, it’s about who he beat
@@chestermops3732People really have a misconception of the flyweight division back in the day. Ian McCall was elite but everyone just ignores that win because he's not a big name. Also the fact that Flucas tries to discredit Horiguchi when he was a champion in Rizin with wins over Kape and Asakura is laughable. Dj also fought the tail end of his career up a weight class because One's flyweight division is 135. Moraes 2x, Benavidez 2x, Dodson 2x, Horiguchi, McCall, and Cejudo (arguably 2x) are all elite wins.
@@CorvoAttano21 So, the skill counts zero? The only thing that counts is who he beat?! Chris Weidman beat Anderson Silva, Lyoto Machida, Vitor Belfort and other nice wins so he is one of the goats? it doesnt make sense brother. If Merab is one of the goats with that argument, also other fighters should be on it. Doesn't make sense...
@@MagiicPT yes, it doesn’t matter how good a fighter is, being amazing doesn’t get you ranked higher all time, greatness is who you beat and how good they are, not how good you yourself are
more animal tier lists 🦍
Flukas the problem is you’re completely ignoring actual fighting ability there is zero argument that as a fighter merab sniffs the top 15 ITS NOT ALL ABOUT REUME this mindset is why we still have Jon Jones top 3 PFP in big 2024
I think the quality of the wins matter. Just because it's a W on the record doesn't make it equal with other wins. Would you put merab's hump fest over Aldo or O'malley over DJ's flying armbar on Ray Borg. Sure Aldo and O'malley are better fighters but not to the degree that humping them to a decision win is equal to a win like that. In the goat convo you gotta nitpick and if we are nitpicking merab is Belal Muhammed of bantamweight. (Belal has better wins than merab lol)
Undeniably correct assessment. Objectivity! It’s important!
Everyone is hurt in the comments but Lucas is correct
That 2 wins over 36 year old flyweight and featherweight who are years past their peak and then Sean the fraud o malley puts you top 13 all time? He did dominate yan and 13 fight win streak but now is ducking umar and had a stink fest with Aldo. Was his Aldo fight even a fight?
Merab def top 15 but you was tweaking in that video
He took a lot of cocaine before the video was made
Pantoja lowki gets slept on in these talks like I think he’s top 15 arguably ppl just sleep on him because he only has 2 title defenses
Same with Figgy, his resume is so insane
@@haygrayk agreed Figgy's resume especially It's better than Pantoja's, and Figgy is the 2nd greatest Flyweight of all time behind DJ
@@snandrew6094see and why is that? Because these guys were competitive. They beat each other which makes the divsion look crazy good. But when you look at it people will say dodson isn't a great win Because dj beat him 3 times. Pantoja beat moreno 3 times too but the only reason its a legacy win is because moreno held a belt. So yeah these guy s never held a belt and arebt looked at as amazing wins because dj never lost it
@@haygrayk Fr resume wise he’s slept on like crazy
Tracey has good logic but I think going off this you can put Dustin Poirer in the top 15 convo (2x Holloway, 2x Eddie, 2x Conor, Chandler, Gaethje, Hooker, Miller, Green, Benoit). Is this not a top 15 resume if title wins are irrelevant?
He has a ton of losses though. Merab has beaten everyone since he's been in his prime clearly
@@eldgepollard5906 So does Anderson Silva though. Most of Dustin's losses are either during his "tadpole" days or against the best of the best. Consider, lightweight's roster size is about twice the size of most other rosters. Someone like Khabib was a 1 in 60 fighter whereas in the light heavyweight division you had Jones, Dc, Gustafsson and Rumble all competing near the same level in a division of 40 guys. 1 in 10 fighters.
@@kingcrimson3882 Personally I'm not too high on silva and I pretty much agree with everything else you said good points
Merab is a bum. How many finishes does he have?
L take
How many finishes do GSP and jones have? If you care so much about finishes then why isn’t Derrick Lewis your goat 😂
😂😂😂 only children
Flucus glazy probably thinks earth is flat and tells everybody they are wrong 😂😂😂
Flucus
nah you're the ones that glaze dj too much in a conformist way. lucas is the opposite of glazy
We got Lucas complimenting Izzy before gta 6
Thank you Lucas. It’s called context btw. Wins NEED context. Did Aljo smoke TJ early with GNP after beating Yan twice?? HELLL NO HE DIDN’T! Just use logic guys. MMA is always evolving right? So currently MMA is as dangerous as it gets right? And bantamweight is one of the nastiest divisions right? Yet he beats everyone
The fact that Anderson isn't rated higher by most people kind of does lend credence to the point you're making.
Youre failing to bring up one of the biggest reasons in what makes someones goat shout valid. The eye test. How complete is this fighter? The goat conversation ih UFC is embarrassing lmao. Pfp DJ is clear of Merab, you can literally just watch the sport.
Lucas and Bedtime: Top 15 GOAT List
Guru: Jon Jones Gay!
What you get wrong about the goat convo is you dont consider resumes in terms of how good opponents were solely at the time of the fight.
For example, alex beat jiri twice. 10 years from now we might say two of alex’s best wins were over this dude who beat 50 year old glover and rakic.
Or take his performance against rountree for example. That was a good ass version of rountree. He deserves credit for that win. But 10 years from now are we just gonna act like it doesnt add to his resume at all?
We have to consider that if someone has 5 title defenses, or whatever the case may be, they were fighting championship level fighters who were at the very least worthy of a shot at the time. Its easy to look back 10 years later and call these opponents scrubs after their career has unfolded, but how good were they at the time of the fight?
ignore resumes altogether and actually watch the fights.
But that's legit why, in 10 years rhe current top 10 will get passed because the sport evolves competition will become better then
It's like football, when all these soccer players used to play plumbers and bus drivers. Yes you can't blame the because it was the competition at the time. But we can't compare that to now, where these people take the sport so seriously and are becoming way more well rounded( mma I'm speaking of now)
But I do say being able to stay on top for a long time also matters
The problem is fighting isn't like other sports where you compete constantly and you have a good frame of reference for what level teams/players are at at any given time because they play enough to give you a statistically significant sample size to judge off of. MMA fights are too infrequent to get a good grasp of exactly how good someone is at that point in their career until they fight a couple more times afterwards. That's why you see such wild swings in opinion on quality of wins, and guys who are considered good wins can be looked back at as bums in retrospect if they go on a losing streak afterwards
Glad someone is speaking the truth about DJ. Triple c would have just as many defenses if he fought the same guys.
Cejudo lost to Benavidez though. So would he really?
@@michaelshields6326If you actually watch that fight it's clear Cejudo didn't lose to Benavidez lol
@@zarifinator1327 And if you watch DJ vs Cejudo 2, you would see DJ won that fight. So no I don't think Cejudo would have the same reign, considering I don't think he actually beat DJ.
@@michaelshields6326 i agree that dj won that fight. It was still a close fight and Cejudo did much better than any of the cans that dj fought so you could easily say that Cejudo would have just as many defenses
As much as I hate to say it I can’t say you’re all that wrong. But you’re not right
I can listen to flukas yap about any topic but 20 minutes about merab is where I draw the line
pls stop embarrassing yourself lucas it’s GREATEST of all time not BEST. greatness takes their circumstances into account. in the nba u wouldn’t say that tony snell is higher than oscar robertson just bc he’s in a newer era, u would account for how dominant they were among the people they had around them
Merab defeating aldo, yan, omalley, henry 4 former champ is far greater than all of the opponent's quality of dj resume who defeated only one notable name in cejudo. Who is gonna compete with the name value of aldo? - benavidez, borg, adriano?
It’s hard to speak on competition because some of these guys joined the sport when it was fresh it evolves everyday that’s why the sport grows
lucas vs bedtime is like pereira vs izzy , Kennyokoye vs MMA GURU is like DC vs Jones
You’re showing your new fandom of the sport in this one.
Dude smoked a fat ass rock before he shot this video
I like how Lukas isn’t overworking himself anymore, keep it up man
Love listening to you yap
My little brother has head damage. Watching your videos makes me happy to see he has representation:)
with more eras comming and going it will be hard to compare old to new fighters bc the sport is also evolving top talent from early ufc might struggle against mid fighters of modern era so titles are and always will be one of the the main factors in these goat rankings