Thanks Howard, I've been digging and digging with no luck..... Yes, all of the keys do work fine but the action is very sluggish on a dozen or so keys. After watching your videos I really think that were looking at having the felt replaced. Thanks again and I'll let you know how it turns out, we're very very excited to own it!
The most common cause of a sluggish action is tight hammer flanges. I would start there. Other parts may be tight also, but that would be a good place to start.
Great video. I have an older upright that I was having problems with the jack not fully reseating under the hammer butt on some keys when played softly, after quite a bit of troubleshooting, I found the main cause of the problem was no lost motion at all. If there is no jack gap, and if the hammer butt leather has wear in it, what happens is the jack gets "caught" on the hammer butt, and doesn't reseat fully underneath the hammer butt causing an extreme loss in power due to the loss of leverage, or even dead keys (as in my case). It was extremely frustrating playing a soft piece and hitting a key and nothing happens because the jack just slips out from under the hammer butt without even moving the hammer at all. Going through and properly regulating the capstans made a world of difference. I though at first perhaps I had bad or misaligned or weak jack springs, but this turned out to be not the case at all. :)
This is a common problem and you're right, it isn't related to lost motion. One of the things that could cause this is if the key is sluggish and not returning completely, but the more common reason is that the jack pinning is too tight or the jack spring is too weak. If it's an older piano it certainly wouldn't hurt to replace the jack springs which is a fairly simple task and a set of jack springs is fairly inexpensive. But you also may need to check the tightness of the jack pinning to see if it is too tight. Sometimes Protek CLP will take care of this, but you may need to repin the flange.
Yeah I checked all the jack flanges and springs, they're good. The problem was the capstans were so high, the jacks would often catch on the hammer butt, and not return under the hammer butt. So I screwed each capstan down about 1/2 a turn, then went back thru and adjusted each one carefully to get just a tiny amount of jack gap (or lost motion), and no more dead keys! If you want to see what I mean, turn a capstan up (counter clockwise). If you go too far, you'll see the backcheck start to move, and the hammer will no longer be resting on the hammer rail, it'll actually be sitting on top of the jack. Then the next time you hit that note, the jack can't get back into it's position under the hammer butt, and now you have a weak note or possibly a dead key that does nothing except move the whippen and jack around...
brnmcc01 Yes, that is another thing that can cause the problem. I assumed you had checked the jack gap or lost motion. I'm glad you were able to figure it out.
Unfortunately it looks like dates of manufacture aren't available for the Gimbel Bros pianos. The only information I was able to find was that these pianos were manufactured in New York. It's possible that parts are still available for your piano if it needs any. If all of the notes work, but are just sluggish to respond it could be that it just needs reconditioning to make it playable. Obviously this wouldn't bring it to the playing of a new or rebuilt piano, but it could make it function much better for you. As for if you should tackle the job yourself, it depends on how much time and effort you're willing to put into the project. If you have more time than money and are willing to learn what is needed in order to get things working it is something that can be done. If you're going to tackle the project yourself I would recommend getting a good book on maintaining pianos. The best one available is "Pianos Inside Out" by Mario Igrec. Another book that is good, but is older is "Piano Servicing, Tuning and Rebuilding" by Arthur Reblitz. Both books are available in our online store: www.howardpianoindustries.com/books-and-videos/ Keep watching for additional videos as we are trying to post at least one a week to keep offering more information.
I tried doing this but then arrived at a problem where if I play a note and hold it, there is distortion as if the hammer, or something, is still touching the string. I really like how responsive it made the action but this side effect made it an unfeasable adjustment. Is there something I can do to remedy this?
thank you for this video. I just picked up a G series Yamaha U1. The piano sounds great but wondering how to make the action “tighter.” Dont know how else to describe it. Tighter = more control in the dynamics, able to press very softly and still make a sound. Any suggestions on what adjustment to make?
I'm an apprentice for a piano technician, and this is what i'm tasked with now... He's away on a trip, but before he left he told me that right now (In the fall, i live in Norway) It's best to have a itsy bitsy bit of lost motion, because the wood in the piano will start to swell in the weeks/ months to come. It seems thats what you're doing right here... should i leave even a little bit more then you do here? What can you tell me about lost motion adjustments with this in mind
i play with the soft pedal down 90 percent of the time. if i adjust the lost motion with the pedal down, how will it affect the playing with the pedal up?
If you adjust the lost motion with the soft pedal depressed, the piano may not play properly when the pedal is not depressed. This is because the jacks won't be able to reset because the whippens will be too high in relation to the hammers.
If there is too much lost motion then you'll have a lack of power because there will be a small amount of key movement before the action starts to move.
I have a bobbling hammer and am trying to learn how to regulate the action myself. I have been studying your great videos but my action does not seem to match the action in your video. I have a Kawai upright, and the backcheck and catchers are quite far apart throughout the piano. However, there is no lost motion, the hammer moves with the slightest movement of the key, even though the hammer butt and back check are not in contact. In the other keys, the hammer butts and back checks only come in contact after let off. In the bobbling key, the hammer butt and back check do not contact solidly after let off, so the hammer rebounds and double strikes the strings when playing that key. I am not sure how to proceed, what should I do first?
There are a number of things to check. First, you'll want to understand that it's not the backcheck pushing up on the catcher that makes the hammer move, it is actually the capstan pushing up on the bottom of the whippen which in turn pushes up on the jack, which is actually the part that pushes the hammer forward. So it is normal for there to be some space between the backcheck and the catcher when the key is at rest. Having very little or no lost motion isn't necessarily a problem. The problem comes when the hammers aren't able to come back to rest fully on the hammer rest rail. What you can do is just slightly pull back on the hammer rest rail and see if the hammers move at all. If they don't move even slightly you'll want to turn the capstans down some to get it so the hammers will "follow" the rest rail a small amount. As far as the bobbling hammer you'll want to make sure you have enough aftertouch, which is the amount of key movement after the hammer lets off. We have some other videos which hopefully will make this clear. If you watch all of our vertical regulation videos it will show you the bigger picture. Please let me know if you have other questions.
Thanks for your advice, and thanks for getting back to me so quickly! I will be ordering a few tools from your website :) When I turned the capstan counterclockwise, I lost hammer blow distance but gained better contact between the backcheck and catcher. I'm using this as a temporary solution. When I turned the capstan clockwise, I was able to get the bobbling hammer to move when I pulled on the hammer rest rail, but the double striking was even worse than before. Does this make sense? My piano has the spade head letoff adjustment screw, so I will wait until I have the proper tool before doing anything else.
+howardpianoind I assumed that I should adjust the letoff before doing anything about aftertouch. The aftertouch in that key was similar to adjacent keys, but I didn't have anything useful to measure it. In the aftertouch video, you used some plastic thickness inserts under the keys, but I couldn't find them on your website.
The thing I was using was an aftertouch gauge. If you have some cardboard front rail punchings you can use those. I have even heard of people using coins once they knew how thick they were. Here is a link to the gauge in our store: howardpianoindustries.com/piano-aftertouch-gauge/ If there isn't enough aftertouch, this is one of the biggest causes of bobbling hammers.
Thanks Howard, I've been digging and digging with no luck..... Yes, all of the keys do work fine but the action is very sluggish on a dozen or so keys. After watching your videos I really think that were looking at having the felt replaced. Thanks again and I'll let you know how it turns out, we're very very excited to own it!
The most common cause of a sluggish action is tight hammer flanges. I would start there. Other parts may be tight also, but that would be a good place to start.
Thanks for the useful video. Cheers from Muscat, Oman
Great video. I have an older upright that I was having problems with the jack not fully reseating under the hammer butt on some keys when played softly, after quite a bit of troubleshooting, I found the main cause of the problem was no lost motion at all. If there is no jack gap, and if the hammer butt leather has wear in it, what happens is the jack gets "caught" on the hammer butt, and doesn't reseat fully underneath the hammer butt causing an extreme loss in power due to the loss of leverage, or even dead keys (as in my case). It was extremely frustrating playing a soft piece and hitting a key and nothing happens because the jack just slips out from under the hammer butt without even moving the hammer at all. Going through and properly regulating the capstans made a world of difference. I though at first perhaps I had bad or misaligned or weak jack springs, but this turned out to be not the case at all. :)
This is a common problem and you're right, it isn't related to lost motion. One of the things that could cause this is if the key is sluggish and not returning completely, but the more common reason is that the jack pinning is too tight or the jack spring is too weak. If it's an older piano it certainly wouldn't hurt to replace the jack springs which is a fairly simple task and a set of jack springs is fairly inexpensive. But you also may need to check the tightness of the jack pinning to see if it is too tight. Sometimes Protek CLP will take care of this, but you may need to repin the flange.
Yeah I checked all the jack flanges and springs, they're good. The problem was the capstans were so high, the jacks would often catch on the hammer butt, and not return under the hammer butt. So I screwed each capstan down about 1/2 a turn, then went back thru and adjusted each one carefully to get just a tiny amount of jack gap (or lost motion), and no more dead keys!
If you want to see what I mean, turn a capstan up (counter clockwise). If you go too far, you'll see the backcheck start to move, and the hammer will no longer be resting on the hammer rail, it'll actually be sitting on top of the jack. Then the next time you hit that note, the jack can't get back into it's position under the hammer butt, and now you have a weak note or possibly a dead key that does nothing except move the whippen and jack around...
brnmcc01 Yes, that is another thing that can cause the problem. I assumed you had checked the jack gap or lost motion. I'm glad you were able to figure it out.
Thanks for the useful video 真的感谢
Unfortunately it looks like dates of manufacture aren't available for the Gimbel Bros pianos. The only information I was able to find was that these pianos were manufactured in New York. It's possible that parts are still available for your piano if it needs any. If all of the notes work, but are just sluggish to respond it could be that it just needs reconditioning to make it playable. Obviously this wouldn't bring it to the playing of a new or rebuilt piano, but it could make it function much better for you. As for if you should tackle the job yourself, it depends on how much time and effort you're willing to put into the project. If you have more time than money and are willing to learn what is needed in order to get things working it is something that can be done. If you're going to tackle the project yourself I would recommend getting a good book on maintaining pianos. The best one available is "Pianos Inside Out" by Mario Igrec. Another book that is good, but is older is "Piano Servicing, Tuning and Rebuilding" by Arthur Reblitz. Both books are available in our online store: www.howardpianoindustries.com/books-and-videos/
Keep watching for additional videos as we are trying to post at least one a week to keep offering more information.
you're the best!
VERY IMPORTANT!!
I tried doing this but then arrived at a problem where if I play a note and hold it, there is distortion as if the hammer, or something, is still touching the string. I really like how responsive it made the action but this side effect made it an unfeasable adjustment. Is there something I can do to remedy this?
thank you for this video. I just picked up a G series Yamaha U1. The piano sounds great but wondering how to make the action “tighter.” Dont know how else to describe it. Tighter = more control in the dynamics, able to press very softly and still make a sound. Any suggestions on what adjustment to make?
it would have been good to actually see you make the adjustment
I'm an apprentice for a piano technician, and this is what i'm tasked with now... He's away on a trip, but before he left he told me that right now (In the fall, i live in Norway) It's best to have a itsy bitsy bit of lost motion, because the wood in the piano will start to swell in the weeks/ months to come. It seems thats what you're doing right here... should i leave even a little bit more then you do here? What can you tell me about lost motion adjustments with this in mind
This time of year you won't want very much lost motion because as the weather starts to get colder the amount of lost motion will increase.
What is the cause for this decrease/increase of motion? Is it the age of wood? or degrading because of playing?
Typically, it is because of compressed felts in the action, but it can also be affected by seasonal humidity changes.
i play with the soft pedal down 90 percent of the time. if i adjust the lost motion with the pedal down, how will it affect the playing with the pedal up?
If you adjust the lost motion with the soft pedal depressed, the piano may not play properly when the pedal is not depressed. This is because the jacks won't be able to reset because the whippens will be too high in relation to the hammers.
Are all the backchecks supposed to be even ?
What can having too much/little lost motion cause to the action?
I mean, what difference could the player notice
If there is too much lost motion then you'll have a lack of power because there will be a small amount of key movement before the action starts to move.
@@howardpianoind can that make it so when the key is played the note is not as loud as the neighboring notes?
I have a bobbling hammer and am trying to learn how to regulate the action myself. I have been studying your great videos but my action does not seem to match the action in your video. I have a Kawai upright, and the backcheck and catchers are quite far apart throughout the piano. However, there is no lost motion, the hammer moves with the slightest movement of the key, even though the hammer butt and back check are not in contact. In the other keys, the hammer butts and back checks only come in contact after let off. In the bobbling key, the hammer butt and back check do not contact solidly after let off, so the hammer rebounds and double strikes the strings when playing that key. I am not sure how to proceed, what should I do first?
There are a number of things to check. First, you'll want to understand that it's not the backcheck pushing up on the catcher that makes the hammer move, it is actually the capstan pushing up on the bottom of the whippen which in turn pushes up on the jack, which is actually the part that pushes the hammer forward. So it is normal for there to be some space between the backcheck and the catcher when the key is at rest. Having very little or no lost motion isn't necessarily a problem. The problem comes when the hammers aren't able to come back to rest fully on the hammer rest rail. What you can do is just slightly pull back on the hammer rest rail and see if the hammers move at all. If they don't move even slightly you'll want to turn the capstans down some to get it so the hammers will "follow" the rest rail a small amount. As far as the bobbling hammer you'll want to make sure you have enough aftertouch, which is the amount of key movement after the hammer lets off. We have some other videos which hopefully will make this clear. If you watch all of our vertical regulation videos it will show you the bigger picture. Please let me know if you have other questions.
Thanks for your advice, and thanks for getting back to me so quickly! I will be ordering a few tools from your website :) When I turned the capstan counterclockwise, I lost hammer blow distance but gained better contact between the backcheck and catcher. I'm using this as a temporary solution. When I turned the capstan clockwise, I was able to get the bobbling hammer to move when I pulled on the hammer rest rail, but the double striking was even worse than before. Does this make sense? My piano has the spade head letoff adjustment screw, so I will wait until I have the proper tool before doing anything else.
Did you check how much aftertouch you had in the key? This is fairly crucial.danhowvideo
+howardpianoind I assumed that I should adjust the letoff before doing anything about aftertouch. The aftertouch in that key was similar to adjacent keys, but I didn't have anything useful to measure it. In the aftertouch video, you used some plastic thickness inserts under the keys, but I couldn't find them on your website.
The thing I was using was an aftertouch gauge. If you have some cardboard front rail punchings you can use those. I have even heard of people using coins once they knew how thick they were. Here is a link to the gauge in our store: howardpianoindustries.com/piano-aftertouch-gauge/ If there isn't enough aftertouch, this is one of the biggest causes of bobbling hammers.