Shooting in a Fight: The Truth About Who Really Wins
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- Опубликовано: 19 фев 2017
- A serious talk about who really gets to go home to their families in a deadly force encounter. The truth might hurt some egos but as a 16 year Marine Veteran, Daniel Shaw trains with Ryan Hoover and discusses the stark truth that may hurt some egos. That sometimes, it doesn't matter how much training you have under your belt, its often times the one who goes first that wins...or survives.
Please note that this video makes a lot of assumptions. It is not our intention to demonstrate that lethal force should be used in a mutually consensual fight. The assumption is that the shooter's life is in imminent danger and that all other reasonable force options have been exhausted.
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when i took my CPL class my instructor said if you make the mistake of letting the person get close. forget your gun just fight, you are better off keeping your attacker unaware that you have the weapon, if they know you have it, they will go for it. in the end use your best judgment, if you have to fight, fight dirty you are in this to stay alive. go the eyes, throat, crotch and knee's you get ahold of a finger you break it, you get your fingers in their eyes you push to the gooey center.
DevilJin and that is true. These guys are giving very bad information.
How so?
thomas abel
Having grappled extensively with sim guns in many different holsters and carry positions- and actually running classes where the purpose IS grappling with a gun, I will say this- the gun WILL be located by your attacker if you clinch up. Once wrestling starts, A concealed gun has a high percentage chance of being pulled out or falling out at random. Second lesson folks learn is that single hand retention tactics VERY commonly end with attackers being able to perform a messy 2 hands on one disarm.
I'm not trying to call anyone out here, but some of this stuff just sounds like it has only been thought about- not pressure tested.
One handed retention isn't wrong, it's just not ideal (in my experience)
Fighting it out isn't wrong, but retaining a gun is best done with the hands.
DevilJin he is right. because. people don't do the training.
here's some real help if a person is that close hit them in the throat or grab a handful of throat and squeeze as had as you can. that person will be immediately immobilized. you can't breathe you can't fight. that is what they should be teaching because it will give you the split seconds that you need to back off of your opponent and then draw your gun. some things are just common sense. then again I am former military and I train at full speed not at slow scenarios. train like it's real life because your life may depend on it one day.
for some reason everyone always seems to forget about the throat and how devastating it is when you properly attack it.
"It doesn't matter how good I am if he goes first."
^ Truth
What's the best defence for a sucker punch? Hope you don't get knocked out and pray for a second chance.
You could also have a friend beside you to knock that guy out, then it becomes a contest of who's got more friends.
Being 7ft tall and weighing 300lbs?
Bringing close is always good, just be careful of keeping delicate areas guarded. If I'm backed up, you better believe that if i can get teeth into you that I will, or anything to create my advantage, like a jab to the balls.
Situational awareness and an iron chin. One you can train, the other you cannot.
" it does not matter how good I am if he goes first". Ryan says....... pure wisdom.
I like that they give tips for both sides of the situation.
Two really awesome guys sharing their knowledge together, this is brilliant! Looking forward for more from them. THANKS A LOT, GN!
We have to considerate thats no one wants to die. For me in my Jiu-jítsu and police experience, distance is the best defence. Here in Brazil the police force has a saying... "Better be judge by seven, than carry by six". Very good vídeo.
be very careful there some due indeed seek death even by law enforcement but agree on being judged by 12 than carried by 6
I'm waiting for you Baby.
I'm waiting for you Baby.
+Walter Guanaes well hold ur breath
"Better judge by seven, than carry by six" is the one coming after "Better get your paycheck from Lula, than doing your job"
You're welcome
I love the cooperative honesty, and the fact that they weren't trying to show each other up-simply educate.
The pelvis is a great secondary target if you cannot get shots on the torso or head. There are major arteries in that area that will disable a person quickly and if you break the pelvis it doesn't matter how strong they are or what drugs they've taken, gravity takes over and they fall to the ground.
I completely agree Eric I don't know why he's saying not to aim for that spot. A collapsed pelvis ain't nobody fighting with a collapsed pelvis. That level of pain would be a 12 on a 10 scale.
When I was in high school the school I attended karate classes. My karate teacher was Brazilian and taught us Keiko Shin. He also knew Capoeira as well but he taught us Keiko Shin. I have two points to make on it. #1 If your assailant is familiar with karate in any way then he has probably learned how to disarm someone with a firearm. Only pull your gun if you know that you are out of your assailant's reach. If you can put the distance between you then pull your gun and get it over with. #2 One of the things that our instructor said was that fights rarely take place in your preferred style of fighting. For instance, if you learn a kind of fighting style that is all about targeting the organs and wearing down your enemy and then you come across a very heavy and strong guy in an ally who knows to keep his elbows tucked in then you will have a very hard time fighting him especially if he gets close enough to grab you and bring you in close. One of the things you learn in karate is how to fight not only with your fists but your forearms and your elbows and your knees. If it gets to close quarters fighting where the perp tries to kill you sumo style then you need to know how to most effectively punch him and it is not with your fist at that point but your elbow. My point is that fights take place from anywhere from an arm's length to hugging length and if you are only prepared to defend yourself in your preferred distance then you are ill prepared to defend yourself.
Great advice keep up the good work and never stop training!
Thanks for the input from both perspectives!
I have served and would be considered an expert with firearms but the truth is I have never used a gun in a tight confrontation so I have no idea if I could really remain cool and do what needs to be done.
Always keep distance even if there are no guns involved. Never let a person square up to you.
never thought about my body stopping the slide. Thanks for the good info!
"i cant let you get too close"-chael sonnen
Lots of good points here. Most important is don't let them get close!
What ever happened to the good old days where you knuckle up with someone and you both go home, one might be a little worse off, but you both get to go home to your families. Todays violence is ramped up and too intense, sometimes the only option is to kill the person attacking you...sad how times have changed. It used to be you learned from your bruises...now people get to learn from a corpse.
It was never that way. The good old days are just the days when people turned a blind eye to it. Back in 'the good old days' if you were a woman, a different race, or a homosexual then you were just raped, murdered, etc. If anything nowadays you'll find people of every background who know how to defend themselves far better than people in general decades ago, and the knowledge of how to harm someone has actually become common place. So now I would say it's a necessity to learn proper defense in today's world even if you have an aversion or lack of interest in fighting/violence simply because if someone intends to harm you, they likely know how to do it.
Nothing's changed in regard to the degree that people go to harm one another, what HAS changed is the accessibility of weaponry and knowledge. Now it's necessary to learn to cope with violence.
I agree, I grew up in Los Angeles, and surrounded by gangs. Surviving was a way of life here. I saw an incredible number of fights and was in an incredible number of fights, and mostly with with boys. My point is that you are correct, there were "good old days."
Back then if you had beef with someone one you called them out on it you went at it "one on one." No body jumped in, no bullshit. In 90% of the cases that is just the way it went. No body jumped in, loser lost and accepted the he or she had gotten their ass kicked, and that was that. Yes there was the occasional coward but that person would eventually develop a reputation for being a "ranker," a "chavala." Simply put a punk ass coward.
Later things changed. New and younger punks started having problems with losing and other people started jumping in. Some would pull out guns or knives or bats. The honor system was lost due to people lacking honor. Oftentimes you kicked their ass and either the loser or his friends would cruise by hoping the catch you or on of your friends alone so that they could all jump you. Of they did the most cowardly thing they could do, a drive by shooting. Actually that is the way it is to this day.
So those that say that there never were good old day in which most people had honor, they are idiots full of crap or they are too young to know better. May be their good old days was back 10, 20, or 30 years ago. Or may be they grew up in towns in which people were cowards who lacked self respect and honor. They think they are an authority and can speak for everyone everywhere in the world. Fools!
@@dand1455 For the most part you are the one full of BS.
@@charlotteatewilbur8838 You are full of crap, I grew up in Los Angeles surrounded by gangs. You have no idea what you are talking about. I saw and was in an incredible number of street fights, mostly against guys, and I never got raped. We had honor and respected the fact that someone was better. Yes there were the occasional punk but they eventually got what they deserved when eventually others kicked their ass bad to teach them a lesson. And people would know you for being a coward. Those people were the exception, not the norm. So speak up for yourself and the coward city your grew up with.
I am always disapointed when someone starts off with the dismissing of other methods or training and proceeds to teach as if their way is the answer.
You both have been trained by the best! It shows in your winning Attitudes, Skills, Plan. Or Active Self Protection. Great Respects and gratitude for training me to keep up with the blessing Gratitude. TJ🌅
thank you! im learning alot from your videos.hope to avoid these situations but,as ive alteady learned,cant always rely on avoidance.God Bless you guys and i belive what you teaxh will save a life,maybe mine or a loved ones!
Craig Douglas, thumb pectoral index, don't draw until the closest arm is pinned.
Zimmerman only shot once and the spent brass was found in the chamber, either his POS keltec jammed or he made the exact mistake you're talking about.
Whoa. Interesting post.
Shane K Very true, and it doesn't really matter whether you're shooting with semi auto or a revolver. If you have it too close to you, either the hammer or the slide is going to end up getting caught in your shirt, or the slide hits against your body and doesn't expel the round.
I'm betting the KelTec malfunctioned.
Keltecs jam. My daughters keltec jammed a lot until we realized that we were buying very low-load ammo at the range. The owner of the range prefers people use the least amount of powder possible. It affected the slide action causing the gun to jam about once per clip. With our own ammo, it still jammed at least once in every 50 rounds fired. Keltecs are not bad guns (for the price), but they are cheap guns. You get what you pay for.
I think they're made for folks to buy, put in a drawer beside their bed so they can say they have protection, but never meant to be actually used. Overpriced paperweights, that you'd better not bet your life on.
im loving the real strategy. I may not use this in self defence, but im definitely adding it to my choreography list for cqb combat.
CQB?
in martial arts we talked a lot about closing the distance, or closing the gap. it's just as important to create distance sometimes that can be as simple falling to your back and using your legs just like martial arts there's many ways to accomplish this. problem is a lot of people don't anticipate these situations.
Thank you , life saving tips for sure that I didn't know . Keep training and be safe
This is such a great channel, you guys post great practical, logical techniques, much appreciated.
great stuff...keep'em coming.
Honest and real. That's why I follow these guys
I like how they include strategy for both sides of the firearm. Good stuff.
This is good stuff. I took a 0-4' gun fighting class. Mostly what I learned is to stay the hell out of those situations b/c I'd just end up being hosed off the floor by somebody wearing a hazmat suit.
That said: in the situation where I've taken my handgun from its holster, I do not care where I poke holes in my adversary. I'll shoot a foot, a hand or bawls. I want to inflict pain and shock as rapidly as possible so I can turn tail and run away....or deal with other issues (say his friends, or help another person who is also being attacked)
In full contact fighting the rule I learned was - hit them ANYWHERE. If they leave a bicep open punch, stab or shoot it. Same for any body part. Ben Henderson former UFC fighter once tried punching someone in the thigh as he was being taken down - his sparring partners said - ouch! That hurt - so he started doing it in real fights.Hit what they give you - slow them down make them stop.
great video thanks guys I learn a lot
Good video. Excellent explanations by both instructors.
Thanks guys!
Excellent professional advice by you two gentlemen, keep up the good work
Was expecting clickbait. I'm very happy I was wrong!
#Redemption --- sorry for the other clickbaits tho ;)
-GN
Funker Tactical - Fight Training Videos n
excellent video, thank you for your service.
Thanks for this video.
Great video. Thanks.
Glad to see your channel and some others making use of facts, and real life (caught on video). Best quotes ever in these types of videos (Your quote being the best one yet) 1 "it doesn't matter how much training you have under your belt, it's often times the one who goes first that wins...or survives". 2 "(on disarming) If you touch any gun, it is going to go bang." and 3 "no matter how much training you have, if you get caught off guard in the white zone, you are dead." Good channel. Thank you.
Good stuff!!!
Serious topic addressed by two well trained and educated professionals, who obviously have both head and heart in the game without ego-centric silliness. Nice!
Good subject matter here.... only thing I'd add, and I'm sure it has been covered somewhere, is if you do create some distance (3-5 feet) make sure when you draw to get your head over the weapon and tuck your defending arm up close to the chest before you go about sending lead into your attacker...
great vid guys, thanks for the. critical advice!!
Thank you gentlemen.
the dont let them get close is true as it was demonstrated to us at training how quickly someone with a knife can close the gap,especially if they are within two or three meters away
It's O'dark stupid and im all out of listerine....engaging upload, thanks bro.
you're welcome homie.
All great info 👍👍
Excellent advice
I know two people in my state that took a single punch to the head and died from the resulting blood clots. Any force is potentially lethal force.
lol what? Who was punching? the hulk?
rightsman123 You are completely correct. Most people think deadly force must be presented by something other than hands or even feet. But what ever is used to cause loss of life can bare that lable. And in many cases can still bring charges of murder or manslaughter. That idea of bringing the perp closer is garbage, create distance and use a weapon if needed. Trying to wrestle and fight can quickly fatigue a person that is already at a disadvantage by either size or strength. Not everyone trying to protect themselves are top physical shape.
rightsman123 chuck norris was punching i guess
the big factor is "if" your'e in this situation. there is literally infinite possibilities in a combat/self defense scenario. they covered one pretty well. sometimes you cant make distance.
Some people survive large crashes on a motorbike and some people die from stumbling while walking. Human body can be so strong and other times so immensely vulnerable.
Could you Guys Please make a video about the Panic that occurs when you are in a Deadly Force situation. Advantages vs Disadvantages while your heart is racing, and you have No other option. Thanks for your time!
2:25 that gut punch gotcha haha super informational video thugh
For me, one of the most interesting things that were showed (talking purely on the technical side) is the use of the butt of the gun as a contact point to your body and then turning wrist to adjust the angle of the muzzle. Seems secure and stable (ofc Daniel said that it allows reciprocation too). Great stuff and thank you for upload!
I see comments about how you shouldn't carry you should be able to handle yourself, but someone who is willing to hurt someone should be the one willing to get handled.
ruclips.net/video/qU0EJS3cJIc/видео.html
Very good video. I was a PMI in the Marines MOS 8531.
Great video.
Our martial arts group has a couple of training pistols that actuate the slide when "firing." I have never been in a situation even when grappling when I couldn't fire 2-3 shots into the torso before my sparring partner could react. I will continue testing at increasing speeds, but if you can't draw and fire within a one second timeframe, perhaps you should try a different carry position or holster... the biggest issue we had was making sure the offhand/arm was out of the bullet trajectory when being grappled with.
if your weapon is on your leg, you can use your leg muscles to point and push away and still fire your weapon if you are on your back. Standing up, you may get burned, but the same applies to raising the thigh and firing. But only if the combatant is less than arm reach from you.
fantastic info
i knew the reverse gangster pistol grip tyrone taught me would come in handy one day!
All very good observations/admonitions. Most fights are over in seconds. Moreover, two additional points. If it is a bad guy attacking you, it is from ambush. In a split second you have to decide how you are going to act. So you practice situational awareness. You practice when you enter a building/sit down at lunch/attend a movie/move through a crowd. As the man said, all your experience in the martial arts is no advantage against a guy attacking you with a screwdriver who you let get too close to you. You don't have to join a dojo, get a certificate of course completion or hang a black belt gi in your closet to practice situational awareness.
Spirit of fighting will win everytime, regardless of any other factors.
Good stuff.
I think no matter where you send those rounds on the body, the attacker is gonna cease and desist. Especially at point blank. So while going for the head or upper torso would be ideal. Sending those 5-6 rounds into their groin, legs or arms would be just as effective at getting them to readjust their situation.
keeping a 1 metre distance is the way,gives you time to react even better if you have a long reach as he steps forward you can hit him first
head up...body straight...lead hand forward like connor....punching hand pulled back down to the hip where your weapon is....push off and counter...works in every fight for me so...
training matter for many reason. muscle memory - how to react, sensitivity - identify his body motion ( weather he's reaching for something or shifting position to get a better shot at you). last thing how u use your body leverage to produce enough restricted power repeated blow to put him or her away. blind them, disable or kill them if necessary.
So in the slim chance that I get completely surprised, and I'm not taken out immediately, and I'm not injured, and I can override the freeze from having my OODA loop messed up, and I can think clearly enough to remember to draw from retention, and my fine motor control is intact enough to draw effectively, and I have a clear backstop to use my firearm, I'll be sure to follow your advice. Good video though.
hell yeah REAL TALK!!!!
This is a good video, my only argument on this video is he argues at about the 3-minute point how you need to aim for the chest and head and that's what your ideal area is, I strongly argue that the pelvic girdle considering it's your most viable option at that point is definitely a target I would pump two rounds into. You show me a man who gets shot twice in the pelvic girdle and has his pelvis collapse on him and keeps on fighting and I'll show you somebody who can make water into wine.
I’ve carried a gun for years. I avoid conflicts ,and I’ll never pull it unless I’m ready to use it. Don’t let people get to close.
to make this short : gun wins. always.
Best to start shooting before they get close. Even if they just ask for directions. Or if you know them. Why risk having to learn that complex wrist movement.
Yeah, someone you know might be approaching to ask you to borrow your car, metro pass, or even worse, money. Lightem up.
great video
Good stuff. A gun will still work fine at 10 yards, but a disarm technique will not work outside of two arm lengths. Distance is the firearm's friend.
its good to practice, but i think its more important to have some kind of knowledge with hand to hand so you have another option in those situations and dont just default to your pistol.
I can see that bringing him in closer before you shoot him tactic going badly in court.
correct! even if you are a grand master of all types of self defense or martial arts if your enemy goes first you'll end up in the ER or morgue.
I agree with what you say about clinching to minimize damage from strikes, the particular clinch method you used though is pretty dangerous against someone who has any kind of grappling skill, who someone who happens to be quick witted. When you initiate a headlock like that on someone it gives them the ability to dominate your drawing arm very easy with great leverage simply by reaching around your back. We do the same thing to block punches from the headlock position, which is actually pretty easy to do. It is a basic self defense application in a variety of martial arts, also the technique MMA fighters used to block punches from a headlock "back when people actually still tried to put people in headlocks in mma". Subsequently it leaves you open for plethora of very powerful throwing techniques. Its not a sound position and I wouldn't recommend being there whether force multipliers are involved or not.
If you get into Melee combat with someone when you are ranged with a firearm, do what you can to create immediate distance. The easiest thing for beginners is to drop onto your back. Then draw your weapon. the melee attacker will have to stop and redirect his force downwards, giving you plenty of time to shoot between your legs.
The best thing to do is to roll away from your target, as he runs past you, you can turn, draw, and fire as he comes to a stop.
in very dangerous situations i hold my kel tec automatic in my hand, either under my pulled down jacket sleeve or under my crossed arms.
Frank frank: Why the hell do you get into dangerous situations in the first place? Are you looking for a fight? Seriously dude....you need to waken up and get help with those crazy thoughts!!
Slidestoppage, finally someone who thinks of that. Close range, revolver is what's needed.
I often have some some play fight thingh and i usually win even though im rather small cuz i ram myself into the opponent. Get to their side an ram my knee into their leg to stun them or rotating round to the back and get my middle arm ankle onto the throat to bend them backwards.
I dunno turtling up pretty much isnt a good idea when they are already on you and a deadly weapon is present (unless maybe you can have backup save you, so you are trying to kill time till they get to you)
I think if you see someone reaching for your gun you might as well just uppercutt them in the face, THEN immediatly do your gun stuff after.
If you are gonna go for your gun while they are grappling you then you might wanna find some way to push their face up with your free hand. Then when their face is crossfaced you can try to pull out your gun without them seeing it.
I know if i was in life or death and i seen you fumbling at the waist while we are grappling im going to go into insane destroy mode.
.... what about taking a red hos shell casing in the face ????
you could leave yourself open to a law suit with this advive if someone used this method in self defence and even missed or scared off his assailent but blinded himself from the shell casing ejecting upwards???
how do you deal with that scenario please ?
Or use a revolver.The SAS worked that out in Aden 40yrs ago,and developed the close quarter pistol systems.
CQB lower gut/groin a good shot, round can do a lot of damage in pelvic area.
Or they with the screwdriver could come up from behind and stick you unaware. can't prepare for the unknown. You can put yourself in position however to eliminate certain variables of the unknown. Excellent advice keeping it close too. Take the range of the weapons away, fight the person not the weapon. The weapon is no threat at certain distances yes even knives, sticks
very educational
One tip keep training.but go gett a bullit prooffest and dont let it b your chest thats the next step good luck miyaģi
This is why, instead of carrying I have a person who follows me everywhere, watching from the rooftops who is a former Navy Seal sniper. If I am attacked I don't have to worry about tactics I just have to wait for a couple of seconds.
Being from the UK I read the title and thought shooting was a fighting term I'd never heard of... Is there anyway I can use that green plastic gun for self defence?
A good self defense trick is to spray pepper spray on the collar of your shirt. If you are ever in close combat you can simply pull their face in to your shirt. Once their face contacts the pepper spray it will buy you time to draw your sidearm.
Situational awareness. If you don't want to be eaten, don't link like a cupcake. Train for the fight you don't want to have.
Proximity negates skill? No, it calls for a different skill set. Not everything is a gun problem. If they are that close you have no business going to your gun.
I practice shooting from retention at the range, kind of like the old gunslingers used to. I can hit the bull's-eye at 7 yards. Everybody should try it, it's a lot of fun. I'm not going to bull crap, I definitely couldn't hit it in the beginning but you get more accurate as you learn the angle your hand needs to be.
I am humbled by such wisdom. This makes tremendous sense.
However I would like to add one thing... If you can't get them off of you to free your weapon.. bite them on their nose with everything you got and go to rip it off their face. Then when they realize you just tore their nose off their face shoot like mad into them. Actually managing to cause someone enough pain they will react they will react usually by trying to get back off of you. VERY few people can honestly ignore all pain. If you are up against someone like this you got yourself a real fun time on your hands. That and if they are drugged out of their mind... As this video stated you really need to focus more on not letting them get a solid grip on you or getting you to the ground.
I have seen it in concept to actually hit someone with the gun in a variety of ways like a weapon and then bring it to bear on the target. There are issues doing this like anything else but like I had it said when I was learning to use a blade, there is a lot more to a knife than its edge. The same applies to anything used as a weapon like a gun. If you can pistol whip someone effectively it does more damage than punches. Oddly there have been pistols made that had bayonets on them too just for close quarters combat. Hey, your revolver runs dry of its six and you ain't got the time to reload its Poke Stab time. There is a reason why this set up only existed for a brief hand full of years, detachable magazines on auto fire pistols.
There is one other option too if you are not in such a close locked up position and have a free hand working to keep someone off of you and trying to keep them close and preventing them from annihilating you in a fight. It takes less power to ram your fingers in the assailants eyes than it does to punch them. I have "Bowling Balled" much bigger adversaries in a fight before and I guarantee you get your fingers into their eye sockets the fight will change pitch very quickly. This is dangerous in that you must not get your thumb into their mouth. Try and hook a nostril. IF AND I MEAN IF you can lock a grip on someone like this it gives you a lot of options in how to deal with them. Just poking them in the eyes will cost them their sight even temporarily. A fully locked bowling bowl grip is so surreally painful and disorienting there is a chance you will have that person begging for you to let go.
If you need to use a weapon you are in a life or death struggle holding back can cost you everything. So can loosing your head and going stupid in a bad situation. Look, this might sound crazy but let us be honest here... fighting is retarded monkey behavior but in the real world the strong survive and the weak perish. When it comes down to it it is all or nothing period and chances are the person attacking you intends to kill you anyways.
I know the best professional and masters of the various arts say best advice is ALWAYS avoid a situation whenever possible but damn if shit don't happen way to much and it appears to be getting worse these days. I sure hope I am not coming off sounding like some kind of pretentious douche bag or wannabe. Pride is the hardest thing to swallow sometimes and principles can get you killed.
Upper body shots??Thought marines are now taught to shoot and shatter pelvis as best way to stop and drop enemy or is that just good advice for higher caliber?
Wouldn't it be better to grapple on the side of the gun draw? Wouldn't it be harder for him to articulate and aquire tirget of the opponent is on that side. Also, wouldn't it be better for the opponent /target to control the firearm and arm from the same side?
Thank goodness I live in a Country where ownership of a gun is not considered normal.
At those close distances, the pistol may be more effective as a blunt force weapon than as a firearm. What is the likelihood that a shot, however well placed, stops the attacker in his tracks or stops him from continuing his attack? Not very good. Less percentage by far than a kick to the groin, a stiff punch to the jaw, or a blow to the head with a pistol. Thanks.