As a small fat guy who lifts light weights but is trying to become a big fat guy who lifts heavy weights, I've been following Paris' methodology of "Control the weight but don't be a try hard".
So I guess in summary its not really anything to do with the theory but more the practical application, I'm just not sure I trust the average lifter to reach a true 2 reps from mechanical failure on a set of 20 on hack squats with a 3ct negative. Though if you have a experienced lifter that is well conditioned and mentally tough that really needs load reducing strategies for fatigue management i could see this being a good intervention potentially (I still just use one load limiter or the other though). Curious to hear yall's thoughts!
I definitely agree that slow negatives aren’t more hypertrophic, but what I have found since I started incorporating them is it got rid of my elbow tendinitis and I tried everything. I’m now at the point where I can do overhead extension full rom with zero tendinitis.
Great vid. Having pumped out my share of Mr. Israetel critiques, my ears first perked up at his OCD-level idiosyncratic training preferences that aren't really repeated by most big/strong people. It's an interesting question, if muscle damage actually contributes to excess growth or if it just puts you in a recovery hole, but there's something about compounding every single muscle-fucking strategy into one protocol that seems excessive. Light weight plus slow eccentric close to failure sounds GREAT for mitigating injury risk (assuming its a big problem for bodybuilders training in the 8-15 range?). Also sounds like a recipe for wildly unnecessary soreness and inflammation.
Although RP promotes their methods of training to wide masses here on RUclips, I still get the impression that their tips are more suitable for a professional, semi-professional bodybuilder on Juice. Because we know that tendons can't catch up to how fast the muscle tissue grows, and to practically eliminate the risk of injury, Dr Mike picks these crazy SFR movements, adds pauses to them, accentuates eccentrics - does everything under the sun to reduce the weight- something as you explained a natural lifter doesn't need to concern oneself with.
a long time ago, long before RP got to be such a debated topic, NH put out a video critiquing the Israetel’s training split. In it, he looks over an exercise that says something like 12-20 rep range with 2 rir and he asks “what is the difference between 18 or 16 reps considering how long the set has already lasted?” I still think it was a great critique that often goes underappreciated regarding the RP training style. I think it makes a ton of sense if youre a BB on gear and super heavy/strong that needs to continue to put on mass to use all of these strategies to reduce injury/weight. It just doesnt translate to the rest of lifters that well
I just think RP is playing the RUclips game a bit too hard rn. They actually have a ton of good reasonable takes but its overshadowed by the content they produce being made in such a way that gets them maximum traffic on their videos. For example, they've been on other folks channel talking about their training style and the exaggerated eccentrics really just being a q for improving technique that your ment to drop once your technique is solid, but that just never comes across in their own videos.
Yea i think thats a super fair breakdown, very tough to play a balancing act between being a science communicator while also maximizing youtube engagement. I've seen the same about the tempo being more of a learning cue but then it will be suggested that Lee Priest could have slowed his negatives (again i get that its not actually trying to improve Lee's training but more as an education tool for the viewer but could certainly be misunderstood)
The crazy thing about Mike is that he was stupid strong before he went dork mode on SFR. It's like he got sick of proper training and decided he'd rather take drugs for gains until he had a mental boom.
It's cool to see someone talk about this logically as a critique instead of a "callout post" like most fitness channels do. I really only like tempo and super long rom exercises in the 5-10 range cause it's hard to focus on rep quality for 20+ reps.
I hate the constant harping about SFR sometimes. The idea that doing 20+ reps with slow eccentrics is less fatiguing than a heavier set of 8 with regular tempo just intuitively doesn’t make sense. Especially on certain lifts. I think SFR is most useful in comparing exercises, but their model of using it to justify their unusual rep schemes and tempos annoys me
Its actually a feature built into my sony camera and i have been trying to figure out how to turn it off for a good few months now, it makes my head look even more like an egg 😂😂
I just find high reps excessively fatiguing. Yes, they're easier on joints and connective tissue, but harder on everything else. In my experience, my performance drop-off set to set is much higher when I do higher rep stuff.
If I had a friend that was training with me, everyday, saying loudly to control the negative and to put less weight on the bar, talking about how there is less risk of injury and motor units or this or that or whatever is better for hipertrophy and stretching all while making teenager level jokes, I would just tell this friend that I don't want to train with him and keep doing my normal gym bro stuff lol
Personally, my most useful take away is the SFR outlook on training. Although, at my training age, I barely have to drop an exercise because the load is too large to recover from.
Sam wouldn’t the effective reps model be really good for powerlifting since if we lower the amount of “ineffective” reps we also lower the CNS fatigue sparing our CNS for the compound lifts?
Mickey Mouse's Clubhouse! Come inside skinny and get outside jacked (I mean...there is some resemblance of those headphones looking like mouse ears, right?)
I honestly hope it doesn't, already got one of the ol how dare you disagree with a PhD type comments and if it gets outside my usual audience ill get plenty more lol. Just a shame because its not intended to be a knock just a small minutia of practical application that different experts have different interpretations of and im just relaying the ones ive found most compelling
i don't like a lot of the classic RP philosophies, I still don't believe in the stimulus to fatigue theory, any meaningful fatigue you impose is going to have a stimulus response. It's often used to herald isolations, ignore the positive or greatly exaggerate the negative effects of holistic contribution of compounds in training, and focuses primarily on rather or not the lifter's victoria's secret-esque chest-support is allowing them to demonstrate optimal upper back and axial force output as determined in a study conducted on 60 women who've never trained their lower backs a day in their life. 🤓☝ As though that axial fatigue isn't something that also comes with an axial stimulus, how many people have gotten massive while including squatting and deadlifting and barbell rowing in their routine? (all of them? a lot? plenty?) I think SFR is ultimately just a good excuse for the chest-supported bros to maximize their feminine waistlines, but I figure it comes from love: it's just Dr. Mike's approach in trying to make things structured and approachable.
I just dont get how anyone wouldnt think that hitting a top set of 3-5 or something followed by "cyborg" backdowns wouldnt be better than just cyborg everything.
I respect Dr. Mike but to be fair the average gym goers can't really utilize the advices Dr. Mike. Where I train many people struggle with the basics and just trains randomly.
I'm of the opinion that this whole debate isn't really that worth talking about, because how I see it, the training strategy for hypertrophy is very individual dependent, for example compare the intensity between Lee Priest and Dorian Yates, you would be a fool to say either one of them trained 'wrong', but their style is incredibly different. If RP style training works for you, stick with it, if not try a different methodology
Funnily enough I think thats exactly why its worth talking about. Its a very minor modification to the RP system to potentially not combine tempo and high rep targets that is worth trying to see if one responds better that way not at all a debate between methods. The point was not to avoid RP style training, more "if you use rp style training maybe try this small tweak and see if you get better results"
What do you think about paul carters opinion that higher reps actually cause disproportionate fatigue? He makes a good case for not going over 8 reps or so
@@fitoverforty Okay so prove him wrong that high reps are not more fatiguing. Do 2 sets of 40 reps to failure on squats, then see how much your leg strength is impacted. Wait a week or so then do 2 sets of 6 reps and see how much your leg strength is impacted. In my personal experience if i do 2 sets of 20+ reps on squats im completely crushed and cant do anything else. In fact i’ll have to significantly decrease the weight for the second set. However if i do 2 heavy sets of 6 reps im not super fatigued and can do more sets of other exercises afterwards.
@@3ncore706 Novel stimulus, axial loading, many different factors. I can do 40 or 50 push-ups. 2 sets of that would be a breeze compared to heavy 5x5 or 8x3. The point is Paul Carter has a reputation for not understanding how to interpret research but faking science based coaching. Do what works for you. Cheers.
Resistance training is the one of the only subjects in which recreational or professional practitioners have the audacity to think they know more than professor of philosophy in said subject. It's like if a day trader starts talking crap to doctor of economics.
Not sure who is talking crap or saying that they know more than a professor lol. Aside from this being a bit of an appeal to authority, there are folks I view as experts within the field just as much so as Dr Mike (such as Chris Beardsley) that have differing opinions on how the existing body of data should be interpreted and then in turn applied practically. It is then on us as informed consumers to hear out the differing opinions of these experts (on small disagreements that are ultimately minutia) and select the one we find most compelling to apply, nobody is saying im smarter than mike lol
@@fitoverforty you're the type of person that thinks scientists are patronizing you, but truly you're just dumb, you hide your lack of knowledge behind the cloak of skepticism but in fact you're just uneducated. Please leave this arrogant attitude, acknowledge that there are people who know more than you and learn from them.
@@nh1776 great point, as a rebuttal, I would like to point out that professional practitioners also contradict each other, adding to that most of the fundamentals of hypertrophy are agreed up on, however, there are some areas that lack consensus as any other form of science.
If you want a lean limb dominant physique, the RP stuff is fine from what i see from the little zoomers at my gym. If you want to get thick and look like you work out WITH A SHIRT ON, it's not the way to go. Look at little Jared Feather's back. Decent width but no thickness. He'll never make it beyond mediocre.
Idk man calling Jared feather mediocre sounds like crazy speak. He is probably top 1k physiques in the world. However as with all sports, a good athlete makes a coach look good, its usually not the other way around. Same goes with the style of training, there are factors that are more important
It's the curse of most fitness channels. After a while they run out of truly important and innovative topics, and start spiraling into dogmatism for the ideas that got them popular.
Phenomenal head shape!
As a small fat guy who lifts light weights but is trying to become a big fat guy who lifts heavy weights, I've been following Paris' methodology of "Control the weight but don't be a try hard".
honestly sam, that head shape is unreal. you should debate dr. mike on how to obtain such awesome head shapes.
2 videos in a 24 hour period? Insane in the best way
Expect another one tomorrow 😎😎
@@ShetharTrainingwhere is it ?!?😢
So I guess in summary its not really anything to do with the theory but more the practical application, I'm just not sure I trust the average lifter to reach a true 2 reps from mechanical failure on a set of 20 on hack squats with a 3ct negative. Though if you have a experienced lifter that is well conditioned and mentally tough that really needs load reducing strategies for fatigue management i could see this being a good intervention potentially (I still just use one load limiter or the other though). Curious to hear yall's thoughts!
I definitely agree that slow negatives aren’t more hypertrophic, but what I have found since I started incorporating them is it got rid of my elbow tendinitis and I tried everything. I’m now at the point where I can do overhead extension full rom with zero tendinitis.
Great vid. Having pumped out my share of Mr. Israetel critiques, my ears first perked up at his OCD-level idiosyncratic training preferences that aren't really repeated by most big/strong people. It's an interesting question, if muscle damage actually contributes to excess growth or if it just puts you in a recovery hole, but there's something about compounding every single muscle-fucking strategy into one protocol that seems excessive. Light weight plus slow eccentric close to failure sounds GREAT for mitigating injury risk (assuming its a big problem for bodybuilders training in the 8-15 range?). Also sounds like a recipe for wildly unnecessary soreness and inflammation.
Can you make some more white board videos and program reviews? Huge fan of the channel would love to see that kind of content again!
This is so true I don’t even know how Israetel has any training frequency whatsoever after ripping the muscles with stretch exercises.
@@vonbernardino7178 Well he is on steroids
Although RP promotes their methods of training to wide masses here on RUclips, I still get the impression that their tips are more suitable for a professional, semi-professional bodybuilder on Juice. Because we know that tendons can't catch up to how fast the muscle tissue grows, and to practically eliminate the risk of injury, Dr Mike picks these crazy SFR movements, adds pauses to them, accentuates eccentrics - does everything under the sun to reduce the weight- something as you explained a natural lifter doesn't need to concern oneself with.
Solid video. Sets of 4-8 are my favorite. No exaggerated negative, no cyborg stuff.
like the black horns
a long time ago, long before RP got to be such a debated topic, NH put out a video critiquing the Israetel’s training split. In it, he looks over an exercise that says something like 12-20 rep range with 2 rir and he asks “what is the difference between 18 or 16 reps considering how long the set has already lasted?”
I still think it was a great critique that often goes underappreciated regarding the RP training style. I think it makes a ton of sense if youre a BB on gear and super heavy/strong that needs to continue to put on mass to use all of these strategies to reduce injury/weight. It just doesnt translate to the rest of lifters that well
@@zarante5640 NH really shines when doing a philosophical breakdown on someone or something.
Great video,enjoyed your thoughts on effective reps, and things like energy system & mental toughness being the limiting factor.
Looking incredibly smooth
dr mike the typa guy to climb the stairs 2 steps at a time cause it allows for a bigger stretch
I just think RP is playing the RUclips game a bit too hard rn. They actually have a ton of good reasonable takes but its overshadowed by the content they produce being made in such a way that gets them maximum traffic on their videos. For example, they've been on other folks channel talking about their training style and the exaggerated eccentrics really just being a q for improving technique that your ment to drop once your technique is solid, but that just never comes across in their own videos.
Yea i think thats a super fair breakdown, very tough to play a balancing act between being a science communicator while also maximizing youtube engagement. I've seen the same about the tempo being more of a learning cue but then it will be suggested that Lee Priest could have slowed his negatives (again i get that its not actually trying to improve Lee's training but more as an education tool for the viewer but could certainly be misunderstood)
The crazy thing about Mike is that he was stupid strong before he went dork mode on SFR. It's like he got sick of proper training and decided he'd rather take drugs for gains until he had a mental boom.
It's cool to see someone talk about this logically as a critique instead of a "callout post" like most fitness channels do. I really only like tempo and super long rom exercises in the 5-10 range cause it's hard to focus on rep quality for 20+ reps.
Mega algo boost
x2 rahhhhh
I hate the constant harping about SFR sometimes. The idea that doing 20+ reps with slow eccentrics is less fatiguing than a heavier set of 8 with regular tempo just intuitively doesn’t make sense. Especially on certain lifts. I think SFR is most useful in comparing exercises, but their model of using it to justify their unusual rep schemes and tempos annoys me
It's not supossed to be less fatiguing, but less fatiguing for the amount of stimulus it gives.
But yeah I get what you mean
Sets of 20 with a slow tempo would kill me for a week
@@littlethuggie same tbh, whenever I do anything heavy over 12, I get so fucked up
@@ficolas2I'm the complete opposite
@@kylemckinney_22 it's probably just about building work capacity in those rep ranges. I have mostly worked on
Video quality seemed nice on this video. Keep it up guys!
Shethar training on their consistency ark lets goo
This is not the first time Sam has promised more content lol
Great video!
Sam about to get oiled up like Dana White.
have i mentioned jon jones is the pound for pound goat?
@ShetharTraining no cause he's not!!! He number 2 maybe 3 but mighty mouse number 1. GSP is 2.
@@jon-kd5st he’s referencing to Dana White not the actual goat conversation.
Sam getting major smoothing out of that iphone camera
Its actually a feature built into my sony camera and i have been trying to figure out how to turn it off for a good few months now, it makes my head look even more like an egg 😂😂
I just find high reps excessively fatiguing. Yes, they're easier on joints and connective tissue, but harder on everything else. In my experience, my performance drop-off set to set is much higher when I do higher rep stuff.
excellent critique.
This is probably the best criticism I've heard
If I had a friend that was training with me, everyday, saying loudly to control the negative and to put less weight on the bar, talking about how there is less risk of injury and motor units or this or that or whatever is better for hipertrophy and stretching all while making teenager level jokes, I would just tell this friend that I don't want to train with him and keep doing my normal gym bro stuff lol
Personally, my most useful take away is the SFR outlook on training. Although, at my training age, I barely have to drop an exercise because the load is too large to recover from.
Good way to sandbag training tbh
Sam wouldn’t the effective reps model be really good for powerlifting since if we lower the amount of “ineffective” reps we also lower the CNS fatigue sparing our CNS for the compound lifts?
great video
Mickey Mouse's Clubhouse! Come inside skinny and get outside jacked
(I mean...there is some resemblance of those headphones looking like mouse ears, right?)
This will blow up
I honestly hope it doesn't, already got one of the ol how dare you disagree with a PhD type comments and if it gets outside my usual audience ill get plenty more lol. Just a shame because its not intended to be a knock just a small minutia of practical application that different experts have different interpretations of and im just relaying the ones ive found most compelling
Can work capacity gained from higher rep sets be missed out on if one only aims for “effective reps”?
Agree
i don't like a lot of the classic RP philosophies, I still don't believe in the stimulus to fatigue theory, any meaningful fatigue you impose is going to have a stimulus response. It's often used to herald isolations, ignore the positive or greatly exaggerate the negative effects of holistic contribution of compounds in training, and focuses primarily on rather or not the lifter's victoria's secret-esque chest-support is allowing them to demonstrate optimal upper back and axial force output as determined in a study conducted on 60 women who've never trained their lower backs a day in their life. 🤓☝
As though that axial fatigue isn't something that also comes with an axial stimulus, how many people have gotten massive while including squatting and deadlifting and barbell rowing in their routine? (all of them? a lot? plenty?) I think SFR is ultimately just a good excuse for the chest-supported bros to maximize their feminine waistlines, but I figure it comes from love: it's just Dr. Mike's approach in trying to make things structured and approachable.
Avenge me. I believe in you.
Looking big, did you pad your shirt?
I feel like ~3 years ago, their advice was solid. Nowadays they arent giving any info on basic stuff and just push this kind of training...
I just dont get how anyone wouldnt think that hitting a top set of 3-5 or something followed by "cyborg" backdowns wouldnt be better than just cyborg everything.
For the algorithm
I try and do about 50-75% of the RP technique stuff. Any more than that and I feel like a nerd and it's not even fun anymore lol
Hm, I though Mike claimed eccentrics are more hypertrophic just a little bit (like 10% i think)?
I respect Dr. Mike but to be fair the average gym goers can't really utilize the advices Dr. Mike. Where I train many people struggle with the basics and just trains randomly.
Still no large lads im about to crash out
Control the weight, understand how your body work and learn how to horsecock some serious load through it.
Support comment
I'm of the opinion that this whole debate isn't really that worth talking about, because how I see it, the training strategy for hypertrophy is very individual dependent, for example compare the intensity between Lee Priest and Dorian Yates, you would be a fool to say either one of them trained 'wrong', but their style is incredibly different. If RP style training works for you, stick with it, if not try a different methodology
Funnily enough I think thats exactly why its worth talking about. Its a very minor modification to the RP system to potentially not combine tempo and high rep targets that is worth trying to see if one responds better that way not at all a debate between methods. The point was not to avoid RP style training, more "if you use rp style training maybe try this small tweak and see if you get better results"
What do you think about paul carters opinion that higher reps actually cause disproportionate fatigue? He makes a good case for not going over 8 reps or so
We don't discuss Paul Carter around here
@@fitoverforty
Okay so prove him wrong that high reps are not more fatiguing. Do 2 sets of 40 reps to failure on squats, then see how much your leg strength is impacted. Wait a week or so then do 2 sets of 6 reps and see how much your leg strength is impacted.
In my personal experience if i do 2 sets of 20+ reps on squats im completely crushed and cant do anything else. In fact i’ll have to significantly decrease the weight for the second set.
However if i do 2 heavy sets of 6 reps im not super fatigued and can do more sets of other exercises afterwards.
@@3ncore706 Novel stimulus, axial loading, many different factors. I can do 40 or 50 push-ups. 2 sets of that would be a breeze compared to heavy 5x5 or 8x3. The point is Paul Carter has a reputation for not understanding how to interpret research but faking science based coaching.
Do what works for you. Cheers.
Resistance training is the one of the only subjects in which recreational or professional practitioners have the audacity to think they know more than professor of philosophy in said subject. It's like if a day trader starts talking crap to doctor of economics.
Not sure who is talking crap or saying that they know more than a professor lol. Aside from this being a bit of an appeal to authority, there are folks I view as experts within the field just as much so as Dr Mike (such as Chris Beardsley) that have differing opinions on how the existing body of data should be interpreted and then in turn applied practically. It is then on us as informed consumers to hear out the differing opinions of these experts (on small disagreements that are ultimately minutia) and select the one we find most compelling to apply, nobody is saying im smarter than mike lol
@LynxxMan How well did that work out for you during COV!D bro? Be sure to get your upcoming booster! THE SCIENCE 😂
Blindly trusting the mediocre and often contradictory science requires greater unfounded faith than trusting the professional practitioners.
@@fitoverforty you're the type of person that thinks scientists are patronizing you, but truly you're just dumb, you hide your lack of knowledge behind the cloak of skepticism but in fact you're just uneducated. Please leave this arrogant attitude, acknowledge that there are people who know more than you and learn from them.
@@nh1776 great point, as a rebuttal, I would like to point out that professional practitioners also contradict each other, adding to that most of the fundamentals of hypertrophy are agreed up on, however, there are some areas that lack consensus as any other form of science.
Kinda Fit, Kinda Fat 😅
If you want a lean limb dominant physique, the RP stuff is fine from what i see from the little zoomers at my gym. If you want to get thick and look like you work out WITH A SHIRT ON, it's not the way to go.
Look at little Jared Feather's back. Decent width but no thickness. He'll never make it beyond mediocre.
A mediocre ifbb pro is still a pretty good result lol
@ShetharTraining His pro card or not, my point remains, especially if someone is not juicing. Props to him on conditioning no doubt.
Idk man calling Jared feather mediocre sounds like crazy speak.
He is probably top 1k physiques in the world.
However as with all sports, a good athlete makes a coach look good, its usually not the other way around. Same goes with the style of training, there are factors that are more important
@ficolas2 Crazy! For using a known person as an example. 🤣
Let's start defending Mike Isratel too since he's blah blah blah. Sam should take this video down and apologize to Dr. Mike Isratel.
It's the curse of most fitness channels. After a while they run out of truly important and innovative topics, and start spiraling into dogmatism for the ideas that got them popular.