on 32.48, SVG make a very good point on how "a good item or item set that is strong or is the meta, whichever hero builds it becomes the meta, and other hero just appear less incentives", a certain Chinese Dota content creator once mentioned the same thing: What hero is op doesn't really matter; Which item is op, or which item is bad, determine the value of how good the hero is; I think it is true to extent (before introduction of facet and innate, where certain heroes are just better than others, but lets wait time) but here are some example the content creator covered in his old video: mage slayer buff last time make spell caster hero less viable, where when it was nerf, immediately there is increase of spell caster hero; (reflected in 6 sec to 3 sec nerf, ember nerf making leshrac and zeus suddenly more famous) solar crest buff make spell caster hero holder more viable, whereas when it was nerf, immediately there is increase of physical damage hero. any buff of stats-tank item make illusion hero more viable, then illusion clearer suddenly become more viable as well, whereas any nerf stats-tank item make illusion hero bad, then single target burst hero become more viable. in short; more than how a strong hero kit determine how strong the item appears, it is how strong the item determine how strong the hero right now personally in my opinion, please take it with caution; armlet is a really great item now, hence Marci, Chaos Knight, Life Stealer, Dragon Knight (1/2), Kunkka (1/2) is super strong, and when the item is nerfed, those hero will also go away(aside from Chaos Knight, which has overtuned kit, but I hope you get what I mean) Just personal opinion, and I'm grateful to have so many update on the insight of dota ingame or outgame, thank you for the content again, happy playing dota and looking forward to hear more great casting/podcast!
Isn't that what we all think/ understand? If we buff an item or hero, no matter whether a hero/item gets nefered or remains the same, it will directly/indirectly affect it. Eg: morpling is quite literally the same, his facet is basically the old him(u choose a facet to be the same as he was), except the slight nerve on his w (no more agi from that) but fundamentally remains unchanged- then why is he considered bad this patch? When morph was so popular last patch before this facet sheet. ( when morph is still the same) In general, these facets literally make heroes stronger (deal more damage early- especially supports). And heroes like morph can get bullied if supports can do high dps, thus morph is hard to pull off this game(more like, y should I play morph when I can play a hero who can deal more dps early, can farm faster and can help team early with objs?) So these slow carries are out the meta. It's not exactly because of items or auras but these facets enable heroes(especially supports) to play so fast. The game is too fast. Personally, as a 1- this patch is boring af- the hero pool is so limited- ck, mk, sven(not so good), weaver(fking boring hero), spectre(can get punished so hard in lane) etc. But these r the so called fast carries. If u play like Morph, void in 5k and above games, ur going to get fked. (Ull never make it out of lanning phase because it's always 2v1, ur just a creep trying to cs who deals no damage and dies faster than a nc at lvl 3, and good players won't even allow u to lane) moreover as the game goes on, enemies will keep taking objs making ur farming harder and u just lose the game because u have no items at min 20. Maaaannn FKKK this patch, playing 3 heroes for 20 days isn't fun. I win with ck and mk (it's free win, these 2 are just too fast, u can outtempo any carry) then u play morph and void for fun just to feed back ur mmr which isn't so fun. Nway good day to whoever read it.
SVG didn't realize that answering a question from chat is another opportunity for him to be right about something. Also, after last night's performance, I'm ready to get the #AveryForPresident Campaign started
The funny thing is that they made the Lifestealer facet LESS interesting in terms of impactful gameplay. Removing the value of killing creeps and putting it into killing heroes means that it's no longer really worth it to sit there and deny creeps more than your normally would. That was the only thing people were doing differently on Lifestealer with Corpseeater, and they removed it lol.
It’s just a placeholder facet til they come up with something better, remember when talents came out there were so many garbage broken talents like xp, gold, and respawn timer talents that all got weeded out eventually. We are in the same phase with facets currently, a year from now I think the game willl be way more balanced with more interesting sensible facets on most heroes. Gonna take a long time for the games balance to recover from such a change
SVG at the start " heroes aren't being balanced fast enough, some are completely broken and there aren't enough bans to account for them." SVG 20 min later " heroes don't matter, its who uses items better." .... Got so heavy whiplash.
Question: SVG talked about teams running a strat with two offlane heroes and a mid hero for core roles. I've seen multiple teams run carry venge and win with it. Do you think that is because Venge is too broken or is the strat actually good? Thanks for all you do.
Hi Cap and Avery, loving the show so far! I have a question/thought experiment that I've been thinking of for a while. What do you think is the end game for balancing? Do you guys think dota will eventually reach a point where its 'perfect' and no longer need balance patches, save for adding heroes and map stuff?
Question for both Cap & SVG: What were some of the most annoying patches for specific heroes. Not necessarily the most overpowered (i.e. MK or Earth Spirit on release), but heroes that were just a huge pain to play against (the Riki Sleeping Dart patch, for example).
On the tank meta stuff, I think the issue for some viewers and casters now is that the big teamfight spells just aren't really ever used in that way anymore, I feel like every Enigma game just comes down to "Just black hole that one guy." And if they hit the black hole, the other team just bails with 4 and they're able to hold the high ground well enough to protect a buyback. And thats where the tank meta really makes it case, if youre gonna commit this 3 minute cd to one hero, why not get 5k hp and blademail and 50 armor and 60% mag resist? I think the best teams just got a bit too good at playing around teamfight spells and everyone just tries to emulate the best teams so that becomes the meta
6:30 I half agree, but I don't think it's the pick rate we should care about, it's the win rate in my book. I think it's totally fine if one facet dominates because the other one is a niche play style or is only valid in certain draft scenarios but is good if you identify correctly. I think sure the goal should be for mostly parity but it's a great place in dota for extra niches to emerge. I think the danger now is heroes have to be balanced around multiple facets so there's extra room for interactions to happen now that previously just did not so I understand slowing it and having a boring nerf patch before tournament season
How should the tanky meta be broken? Reduce HP gain from STR/damage reduction from Armor? Maybe add an item that does % health pure dmg on hit, to give AGI cores a leg up on stacking too many HP guys, or maybe an extension item from Deso?
I want to ask SVG his thoughts on Invoker and why he's doing poorly in proplay rn. And his thoughts on pos 3 players playing pos 1 (like ammar on entity in 1win tourney rn).
I think TI10 was really good. And from what svg said about ATF. i feel like dota is more than just in a place of finding the best item to build but getting extremely good at combining items to solve drawbacks of heroes. And i think ATF does that very well. N now actually experimentation is what can get dota further. But teams are slower to experiment or less daring sometimes because of whats at stake. But i feel like recently it has been better and i hope games will become even more exciting
PA just has to outplay and build insane herald looking damage builds to deal with primal or anything like it, the hero is in a really rough spot with tanks in the meta as a pa player im sad. I still have a 57% wr with her this patch but shes my favorite hero so that should be higher. But yeah from tanky heroes to everyone getting a broken facet and pas facets being "you get blur back so the hero is playable" or "you go the meme attack speed build and auto lose."
If a facet is picked 10% of the time but when it is picked the wr is significantly higher that could also be ok as its maybe showing an interesting niche
feel like heroes only really matter in the first 10-15 min in most games. After that networth takes over the match. Hero choice becomes second after that.
So would you rather go back to the 5man group-up meta where they can easily minus1 the opposing team and do an early push to tower? That's even more painful to watch Think for a moment as to why things came about leading us to where we are right now, they added endurance not just to extend fights but to put emphasis back on laning and not gain an advantage just by having more kills from 5maning. It's not easy to balance these things so give it time
having a tanky front-line and holding formation is just the correct way to play dota. buying defense to snowball when you get a head in order to shut down the opponents chances is just the correct way to play dota.A meta where you don't want a front line on the team would be horrifically degenerate.
They should make facets change how abilities work for the hero to give them different playstyle instead of giving them inate stats/buffs. The way how facet works now makes other heroes complete obsolete in high level pubs. Even heroes that counter broken heroes this patch are still dogshit. Necro for example
Svg is fundamentally broken
Svgs beard facet > head hair facet
SVG is the new generation of the fundamentally broken analyst facet
on 32.48, SVG make a very good point on how "a good item or item set that is strong or is the meta, whichever hero builds it becomes the meta, and other hero just appear less incentives", a certain Chinese Dota content creator once mentioned the same thing: What hero is op doesn't really matter; Which item is op, or which item is bad, determine the value of how good the hero is;
I think it is true to extent (before introduction of facet and innate, where certain heroes are just better than others, but lets wait time) but here are some example the content creator covered in his old video:
mage slayer buff last time make spell caster hero less viable, where when it was nerf, immediately there is increase of spell caster hero; (reflected in 6 sec to 3 sec nerf, ember nerf making leshrac and zeus suddenly more famous)
solar crest buff make spell caster hero holder more viable, whereas when it was nerf, immediately there is increase of physical damage hero.
any buff of stats-tank item make illusion hero more viable, then illusion clearer suddenly become more viable as well, whereas any nerf stats-tank item make illusion hero bad, then single target burst hero become more viable.
in short; more than how a strong hero kit determine how strong the item appears, it is how strong the item determine how strong the hero
right now personally in my opinion, please take it with caution; armlet is a really great item now, hence Marci, Chaos Knight, Life Stealer, Dragon Knight (1/2), Kunkka (1/2) is super strong, and when the item is nerfed, those hero will also go away(aside from Chaos Knight, which has overtuned kit, but I hope you get what I mean)
Just personal opinion, and I'm grateful to have so many update on the insight of dota ingame or outgame, thank you for the content again, happy playing dota and looking forward to hear more great casting/podcast!
Isn't that what we all think/ understand?
If we buff an item or hero, no matter whether a hero/item gets nefered or remains the same, it will directly/indirectly affect it.
Eg: morpling is quite literally the same, his facet is basically the old him(u choose a facet to be the same as he was), except the slight nerve on his w (no more agi from that) but fundamentally remains unchanged- then why is he considered bad this patch? When morph was so popular last patch before this facet sheet. ( when morph is still the same)
In general, these facets literally make heroes stronger (deal more damage early- especially supports). And heroes like morph can get bullied if supports can do high dps, thus morph is hard to pull off this game(more like, y should I play morph when I can play a hero who can deal more dps early, can farm faster and can help team early with objs?) So these slow carries are out the meta. It's not exactly because of items or auras but these facets enable heroes(especially supports) to play so fast. The game is too fast.
Personally, as a 1- this patch is boring af- the hero pool is so limited- ck, mk, sven(not so good), weaver(fking boring hero), spectre(can get punished so hard in lane) etc. But these r the so called fast carries. If u play like Morph, void in 5k and above games, ur going to get fked. (Ull never make it out of lanning phase because it's always 2v1, ur just a creep trying to cs who deals no damage and dies faster than a nc at lvl 3, and good players won't even allow u to lane) moreover as the game goes on, enemies will keep taking objs making ur farming harder and u just lose the game because u have no items at min 20. Maaaannn FKKK this patch, playing 3 heroes for 20 days isn't fun. I win with ck and mk (it's free win, these 2 are just too fast, u can outtempo any carry) then u play morph and void for fun just to feed back ur mmr which isn't so fun. Nway good day to whoever read it.
SVG didn't realize that answering a question from chat is another opportunity for him to be right about something. Also, after last night's performance, I'm ready to get the #AveryForPresident Campaign started
Nice! 👍
I'm just here for the dryer running in the background
No you beat me to it
why are there no credits (either in video or in the youtube description) for the editor?!?!? makes this so much nicer to view, you deserve some creds!
ty glad you like the editing 💜
Caps takes are consistently top tier.
He seems like such a reasonable guy
The funny thing is that they made the Lifestealer facet LESS interesting in terms of impactful gameplay. Removing the value of killing creeps and putting it into killing heroes means that it's no longer really worth it to sit there and deny creeps more than your normally would. That was the only thing people were doing differently on Lifestealer with Corpseeater, and they removed it lol.
It’s just a placeholder facet til they come up with something better, remember when talents came out there were so many garbage broken talents like xp, gold, and respawn timer talents that all got weeded out eventually. We are in the same phase with facets currently, a year from now I think the game willl be way more balanced with more interesting sensible facets on most heroes. Gonna take a long time for the games balance to recover from such a change
SVG at the start " heroes aren't being balanced fast enough, some are completely broken and there aren't enough bans to account for them." SVG 20 min later " heroes don't matter, its who uses items better." .... Got so heavy whiplash.
Did Cap go turn off his dryer during that small cut XD
Bro why’d you have to be the comment I see right as I start watching the video.
Question: SVG talked about teams running a strat with two offlane heroes and a mid hero for core roles. I've seen multiple teams run carry venge and win with it. Do you think that is because Venge is too broken or is the strat actually good? Thanks for all you do.
Whys poor RTZ always catching strays when it comes to carries man XD
Hi Cap and Avery, loving the show so far! I have a question/thought experiment that I've been thinking of for a while.
What do you think is the end game for balancing? Do you guys think dota will eventually reach a point where its 'perfect' and no longer need balance patches, save for adding heroes and map stuff?
Question for both Cap & SVG: What were some of the most annoying patches for specific heroes. Not necessarily the most overpowered (i.e. MK or Earth Spirit on release), but heroes that were just a huge pain to play against (the Riki Sleeping Dart patch, for example).
refresher bkb is the next generation of bkb
Moving to Bali, thankyou SVG for the Bet Wins
On the tank meta stuff, I think the issue for some viewers and casters now is that the big teamfight spells just aren't really ever used in that way anymore, I feel like every Enigma game just comes down to "Just black hole that one guy." And if they hit the black hole, the other team just bails with 4 and they're able to hold the high ground well enough to protect a buyback. And thats where the tank meta really makes it case, if youre gonna commit this 3 minute cd to one hero, why not get 5k hp and blademail and 50 armor and 60% mag resist? I think the best teams just got a bit too good at playing around teamfight spells and everyone just tries to emulate the best teams so that becomes the meta
6:30 I half agree, but I don't think it's the pick rate we should care about, it's the win rate in my book. I think it's totally fine if one facet dominates because the other one is a niche play style or is only valid in certain draft scenarios but is good if you identify correctly. I think sure the goal should be for mostly parity but it's a great place in dota for extra niches to emerge. I think the danger now is heroes have to be balanced around multiple facets so there's extra room for interactions to happen now that previously just did not so I understand slowing it and having a boring nerf patch before tournament season
I think what cap is getting at @21:30 is that right click is next up to bat and when they get overtuned
NEXT GEN
How should the tanky meta be broken? Reduce HP gain from STR/damage reduction from Armor? Maybe add an item that does % health pure dmg on hit, to give AGI cores a leg up on stacking too many HP guys, or maybe an extension item from Deso?
-armor isnt good vs tanky heroes
there is no such thing as the tanky meta when every hero is tanky. TB is still picked.
I want to ask SVG his thoughts on Invoker and why he's doing poorly in proplay rn.
And his thoughts on pos 3 players playing pos 1 (like ammar on entity in 1win tourney rn).
I think TI10 was really good. And from what svg said about ATF. i feel like dota is more than just in a place of finding the best item to build but getting extremely good at combining items to solve drawbacks of heroes. And i think ATF does that very well. N now actually experimentation is what can get dota further. But teams are slower to experiment or less daring sometimes because of whats at stake. But i feel like recently it has been better and i hope games will become even more exciting
PA just has to outplay and build insane herald looking damage builds to deal with primal or anything like it, the hero is in a really rough spot with tanks in the meta as a pa player im sad. I still have a 57% wr with her this patch but shes my favorite hero so that should be higher. But yeah from tanky heroes to everyone getting a broken facet and pas facets being "you get blur back so the hero is playable" or "you go the meme attack speed build and auto lose."
SVG & CAP: Why dont you guys make a bet to see who has better predictions on Riyadh.
And can it please involve Cap becoming bald?
@@PalleNoehr I done it once, I'm not afraid to do it again
@@CapCasts I hope you guys get to cast some of the final games at TI, I think you are the best teamfight caster atm. Keep up the amazing content
If a facet is picked 10% of the time but when it is picked the wr is significantly higher that could also be ok as its maybe showing an interesting niche
feel like heroes only really matter in the first 10-15 min in most games. After that networth takes over the match. Hero choice becomes second after that.
I would say, Overwatch downfall begin when TANK META goes uncontrolable
TANK META is misserable to watch
So would you rather go back to the 5man group-up meta where they can easily minus1 the opposing team and do an early push to tower? That's even more painful to watch
Think for a moment as to why things came about leading us to where we are right now, they added endurance not just to extend fights but to put emphasis back on laning and not gain an advantage just by having more kills from 5maning. It's not easy to balance these things so give it time
Im spaming Veno to Solo First Rosh between 10-20min Mark
How is hitting a big spell and instantly wiping the enemy team more interesting? Isn't that just making the game less interactive?
having a tanky front-line and holding formation is just the correct way to play dota. buying defense to snowball when you get a head in order to shut down the opponents chances is just the correct way to play dota.A meta where you don't want a front line on the team would be horrifically degenerate.
Sadge no Avery VS the crowd question
Maybe the solution is leaving all the non BKB alternatives, and getting rid of the BKB.
I have no idea what to expect with that thumbnail.
Boy love
Next year update, dota2 weapon items have face it.
They should make facets change how abilities work for the hero to give them different playstyle instead of giving them inate stats/buffs. The way how facet works now makes other heroes complete obsolete in high level pubs. Even heroes that counter broken heroes this patch are still dogshit. Necro for example
Avery! Get back on cam! Now!
W
i was here
Avery is a coward
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