@@DW-yq4zn LOL yeah it's not a bad song by itself but not really family appropriate. Understanding the meaning of a piece of writing isn't a strength of the type of people who try to use Hallelujah as a hymn.
Man, I used to love the song for the sound and the hallelujah sounded good too, but tried listening again since I got saved and it definitely feels profane.
There's a Christian version of the song that changes the lyrics. It was the first version I heard, so I was confused when I heard the original. I hate the original with a burning passion, but I like the Christian version.
"the cross doesn't make sense if there is no death sentence" - i am so struck by that and challenged to view the cross more rightly and my sin even more awfully!
When you forgive others, your sins won't be so awful. You will know that God doesn't hold yours against you. Matthew 6:14-15 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you Forgiveness, not sacrifice is the way out of guilt. Matthew 12:7, NIV: If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.
@@robertdouglas8895 These verses have been taken out of context. >Jesus is not saying that you receive justification from forgiving others. He is saying that when we pray to god, we should forgive others, so that we can reconcile our fellowship with god when it is hindered by sin. This is directed at believers, who are already justified from faith. He is reemphasizing the importance of forgiving others, indicating that there is a direct relationship between having been forgiven by god, and forgiving others. >Forgive your trespasses refers to restoring a personal relationship with god, after already having received justification. >The words “I desire mercy, not sacrifice” are actually quotes from the OT, which Jesus frequently quoted, and are initially spoken in the book of Hosea, in the context of a nation of sinners, whom performed sacrifices to god in exchange for the forgiveness of sins, but did not really participate in the covenant they made with the lord. The ceremonies of the northern kingdom had become polluted, made sacrifices, but did not care about their relation with god, deriving the sacrifices of their intended purpose, making them just as useless as pagan ones. >When Jesus quotes the book of Hosea, he is doing so in the context of eating with sinners, when explaining why to the Pharisees. “Sacrifice” meant observance of religious rituals, while “mercy” (the septuagint’s rendering of the Hebrew word hesed, meaning steadfast love) which would have led the Pharisees to care for the sinners as Jesus did, as steadfast love was more important to god, as sacrifice is ultimately meaningless, without love or care for the covenant, the relationship the people of Israel had entered into with god. >Ultimately, Jesus performed the ultimate sacrifice, paying our debt, as a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins, I.e the lamb of god, who takes away the sins of the world, because the hebrews would sacrifice a lamb for forgiveness of their individual sins, and, in order for that sacrifice to have any meaning, and purpose, it requires “Mercy”(Steadfast love) in Jesus Christ, the son of god, the lord of all creation, so that the sacrifice he performed for us, would allow us to be saved after entering into a relationship with him.
So it would be perfectly just for me to look at my children and tell them that if they dont sing my praises by telling me everyday that they love me an appreciate me talk me up to everyone they know I love them completely but if they dont i will beat them incessantly all while reminding them it is their choice whether they love me or not. That its of there own choosing if they do or dont .... That would be my showing perfect love to my children?. Because that's pretty much what the biblical God has done to us humans. Except for instead of beating us daily they're going to punish us for all eternity in hellfire. It's our choice whether or not we worship him but if we dont we burn. Which incidentally completely negates the whole theory and principal purpose of free will. And if you genuinely think it doesn't you have cognitive dissonance that of the likes of an abused child who still thinks their mother is the best even though she beats them bloody everyday😢
@@AngelINTheMatrix That’s a complete distortion. By your logic, the criminal justice system negates free will, because you can either make the right choice and obey the law, or the wrong choice and be punished for it. You completely forget about sin apparently, because the human race is totally not terrible in any way. *God loves us, but god is also just, and because god is just, he has to punish us for our sins.* when we are separated from god, we live and die in sin, and if we do, then we are condemned to hell for our sins, for that is our just punishment. *God loves us despite our wickedness, so much that despite how much we deserve to be punished for our atrocities, he was willing to walk amongst us as a person, and suffer the punishment we are supposed receive, so that all is required is to admit to him that we are sinners in need of a savior, and that he is our savior.* Faith in god is all that’s needed, to find forgiveness for our sins. It’s your choice to have faith and love god or not, just like it’s your choice to live by the law, or murder someone and go to jail. All you have done is create a twisted caricature or what you think god is, or does. And by the way, insulting people is nothing but ad hominem fallacy, meant to degrade and demean others to attack them instead of their argument. I am open to answering more questions if you have them. Edit: And no, people don’t have cognitive dissonance just because they disagree with your incredibly warped and uninformed view of Christianity.
When you were talking about cops not doing anything to criminals, I immediately thought of what has been happening in Portland and Seattle for the past several months.
These views were actually created way before the everybody gets a trophy thing. Stop using slogans and start using logic and you'll avoid these abusive honor-shame culture tactics.
We didn't all get a trophy in my generation. I rejected the idea of God's never ending and excessive, obsessive wrath a long time ago. Liberal Christianity was the only interpretation of the faith that could have kept me a Christian. I'd have become and atheist a decade sooner had I not been able to see God through a different lens.
Something I grapple with the most, is the idea of the people I love and anyone else for that matter going to hell for eternity. I feel that this is an actual strain on my mental health, my relationship with God and my hope. Any advice?
Hell is real, but so it the truth of the word of our Lord and savior Jesus christ. He covers our sin as long as we believe in him. We can get to know Jesus and get closer to him. And live inside of him and walk inside of him. We can be saved and live eternity with him. We need to be an obedient servant for him. We need to follow the 10 commandments and ways he wants us to live.
There's some element of truth to justice being restorative rather than punitive, but that's only in that it is restorative because it's punitive. Because God has punished Jesus on the cross, the payment for my sin has been payed and I no longer owe it, provided I come under the sacrifice of Christ. In that sense, God's justice is fulfilled through mercy in my life. For anyone not under Christ though, the punishment still needs to be payed.
Yes exactly Christ being punished on the cross was to restore us back to Him, If we receive the sacrifice that Christ did for us on the cross. Anyone who doesn't is still under punishment by default.
Stephen, yet, even believers in Jesus Christ shall be punished for the bad done in the body, ( 1 Corinthians 5:10, Matthew 5:22, Matthew 12:36, Luke 12:48, Luke 6:37,38), as Jesus Christ took on the Eternal punishment due our sins, but not the temporaral punishments. Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is True food and Blood True drink
@@only1abiola Yet, even believers in Jesus Christ shall be punished as well, ( 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 6:37,38, Matthew 5:22, Luke 12:48, Matthew 12:36) as Jesus Christ took on the Eternal punishment due to sin, but not the temporaral punishments! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is True food and Blood True drink
I know sometimes I don't always agree with you but throughout this whole list you have been on the money. Keep up the good work. I wish christains would come together regaurdless of out differences and talk these things out. Maybe then we could help people more than we confuse them or mislead them.
The BIGGEST lie of the devil in the Church today is that, "human beings are not that bad, God loves us all. Just keep living our lives our way" THAT'S A LIE FROM satan!! Genesis 6:5 - And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
The biggest lie in the Church today is that the word ekklesia (translated as the word church by a King with an agenda) is a building or institution built by men and registered with the government. That’s the biggest lie in Christianity. That Jesus is building religious clubs called churches.
So people are in a place/state that flows against the love of God and in time are somehow magically restored to righteousness, while in THAT state? Err yeah.. sure. 😅
Actually, the best case is eventual universal salvation, based on verses like this: "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive ... God [will] be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:22,28) "As one trespass [Adam's] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness [Jesus'] leads to justification and life for all men." (Romans 5:18) "God has committed all to disobedience that he might have mercy on all ... From him and through him and to him are all things." (Romans 11:32,36) "...every knee shall bow to me [God], and every tongue shall confess to God." (Romans 14:11) " ... at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:10-11) "And I [Jesus], when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." (John 12:32) "And every creature which is in heaven and on earth and under the earth I heard saying, 'Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb forever.'" (Revelation 5:13) "O you who hear prayer, to you shall all flesh come. When iniquities prevail against me, you atone for our transgressions." (Psalm 65:2-3) "All you have made will praise you, O Lord." (Psalm 145:10a) "I will not contend forever, nor will I always be angry; for 'the spirit would grow faint before me, and the breath of life that I made'." (Isaiah 57:16) "The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end. ... " (Lamentations 3:22) Also see John 17:2, Romans 5:19-20, 8:19-21, Ephesians 1:10, Philippians 3:21, Colossians 1:20, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, 4:10, Titus 2:11, 1 Peter 4:6, 1 John 2:2, 4:14, Revelation 15:4, 21:5,24-25, 22:2, combination of (Revelation 22:1,14-15,17a,17c), Psalm 22:27,29, Isaiah 25:6-8, 45:22-25, Lamentations 3:31, Ezekiel 16:53,55, Malachi 3:2-3 Recommended Reading: _Hope Beyond Hell_ by Gerry Beauchemin & _Heaven's Doors_ by George Sarris
Thank you Mike and Alisa for your genuine approach to the scriptures. I agree with most of the things you have to share. I do however think that it would be beneficial to reconsider what the Bible says about God's Judgement of the wicked and unrepentant. DISCLAIMER: I believe God is just in punishing unrepentant sinners. My question is this: Would it be just and fair for God to punish individuals for an eternity as a result of, say 90 years of persistent sinning? Here are some Bible verses speaking about God's judgement of the wicked that I hope you will consider, along with my comments: 1. Romans 6:23 - The wages of sin is death. Death is what you get in return for being a sinner who has not repented and accepted the free gift of God. The gift is life, the result of sin is death. 2. Malachi 4:1-3 - The wicked are to be consumed. They will be turned to ash. Nothing of the former things will remain. 3. Psalm 37:9-11, 20 - The wicked will be no more. 4. John 3:16 - Jesus Himself said that he came that those who believe in Him shall not perish. What does it mean to perish? 5. Matthew 10:28 - Hell is the place where the destruction of the wicked takes place. 6. Jude 7; 2 Peter 2:6 - Sodom and Gomorrah were burned by eternal hell fire, yet they are not still burning today. How do we make sense of this? 7. Revelation 14:9-11 - The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever. What happens when you burn up a candle and it goes out? The smoke rises even after the fire is gone. 8. Isaiah 34:8-10 - Revelation has many references to the Old Testament. Revelation 14:9-11 has strong reference to this passage in Isaiah. So how do we explain the words “forever” and “it shall not be quenched”? Can anyone stop something God has put forth? Likewise, nobody can stop the fire from carrying out God’s plans by quenching it. A fire that is not quenched simply burns until it runs out of fuel. 9. Jonah 2:6, 10 and 1 Samuel 1:22, 28 - We can see that elsewhere in the Bible the word forever is used in a temporary context. Jonah was only in the belly of the fish for three days, however it may have seemed like an eternity while he was there. 10. Revelation 20:9 - If God is love, then everything He does must be out of love. It is in mercy that God does not burn people for eternity - He brings just punishment, and it is important to note that ultimately He acts justly to everybody. It is not just to punish people without end; it is just to punish them according to what they have each personally done, and then to make an end to them so that their persistent sinful ways don't impact those who have accepted God's gift of salvation and righteousness by faith. 11. Rev 21:4 - It is an act of both mercy and justice to put an end to those who chose to remain slaves to sin and suffering. There will be no more crying or pain, not only for those who are saved, but for those who are destroyed. Yet it is a tragedy that they will not have the blessing of experiencing eternity with God. 12. Rev 15:1 and Psalm 30:5 - God's wrath does end - He doesn't pour it out forever - only until it is satisfied in its just fulfilment. I share with love in Christ, and pray God continues to bless your much needed ministry :)
@The bible approves Abortion There is morality in it because it also shapes your worldview. Which countries have the best human rights? I'll give you a hint, they're based on Western society which was heavily shaped by Judeo-Christian values. Now, it would be manipulative if, like in the Quran, we saw that God specifically turned people away from Him. But using the Christian worldview, God values love more than blind obedience, and you cannot have love without free will. It's only manipulation if you have a twisted view of love. This is the same as not understanding an actual gift vs a bribe. If you think a parent buying a child a gift because they love them is the same as the parent buying the child the book because they want the child to love them back, you should really step back and take a look at your own perspective. They are two different intentions. Not to mention, this isn't some specific action that gets decided like the Egyptian After-life. There isn't a final exam that you can pass with Christianity, it's merely cause and effect. As water flows from top to bottom and follows gravity, those who forsake God will end up in Hell. It's not a threat, it's just a consequence. If that's not enough, I challenge you to use your own argument against you and the only reason you don't believe is because you grew up indoctrinated in thinking there is no God and that everyone else who thinks there is a God is stupid. The crux issue being that you cannot prove anyone wrong, and you assume that no one else can prove themselves correct, which then becomes moot because you won't be willing to listen to them, and they certainly won't listen to you in return.
@The bible approves Abortion Why is slavery and rape wrong? According to your worldview, there is nothing wrong with either. Rape is even a natural occurrence in the animal kingdom. Your worldview claims we are just a bundle of cells living in a senseless, purposeless universe. Your ancestors were literal fish according to your worldview. So why should we behave any different than animals if there is no objective morality? The problem is, in order to make an moral claim you have to borrow from the Christian worldview, which states that objective moral values do exist and that humans are precious and valuable because they are made in the image of God (thus, should be treated with love, respect and dignity); otherwise, you’re just voicing your opinion and your argument is weightless. You have no grounds to argue for anything moral because anything you say is nothing more than an opinion. Only from the perspective of objective morality can rape be recognised and condemned for the evil it truly is. Outside of this framework, evil doesn’t even exist. Having realised how hopeless the atheistic position is, I do hope you give your life to Christ. You’re obviously passionate about people and want to safeguard those who are vulnerable from being mistreated, but this only makes sense in the Christian worldview. It’s futile to argue any other way. Please, repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. May the Lord show you His salvation.
@The bible approves Abortion ‘morality is based on our wellbeing’ says who? You and your subjective opinion? Either you didn’t read what I wrote or you simply don’t understand. The ironic thing is, in order to even allege that my God has committed or commanded a terrible act you have to assume that objective morality exists, which presupposes a personal, moral law giver, otherwise known as God. In other words, in order to assert that my God has committed or commanded a terrible act, you have to presuppose that a God exists in the first place; otherwise, you’re stealing from my worldview and you’re being logically inconsistent. So long as you cling to atheism, any moral claim you make (if you’re going to be consistent with your worldview) is reduced to nothing more than an opinion.
Yes! Anger can be righteous, hatred can be righteous. Because God is righteous, and his anger is righteous, and his hatred is righteous, just as much as his mercy and his grace are righteous.
@@AngelJuliet of course that is what it means to them. It makes them feel good that there is no “bad place” for them in the end. No matter how they live their lives. It is very sad actually.
If the wrath of God is merely metaphorical, that suggests that "sin" is also metaphorical. If God doesn't get angry at us when we hurt people, or ourselves, then he doesn't have much love for us or the people we're hurting. (Which suggests that the "flow of God's love" our "sin" is "swimming against" isn't all that much of a flow.) You really end up with the impression that the "progressive" Christians doesn't really consider anything actually "sin" except the "intolerance" of calling things the Bible says are sinful "sin".
You will find many bible believing Christians do not believe in the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. Those believers generally believe in Conditional Immortality. They believe the words perish, death, consume, destroy, etc all means exactly the same as we understand them in English. None of the above words mean everlasting torture to the everyday English speaker on the street. So why do “conservative” Christians seem to insert another meaning into words which have a very clear meaning to most people. Death means death. An Apple which perishes isn’t burning in flames for all eternity, so how do you read that word and come to everlasting torture?
@@lwedel3361 "He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with _everlasting destruction_ and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." 1 Thess 1:8-9 The "everlasting" there tells us that the "destruction" is not: they're destroyed forever, but that they're forever _being_ destroyed. When Jesus talks about those "shut outside" where there is "weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth that doesn't sound like hell is non-existence. Or there's that story of the rich man and Lazarus where the rich man is in "hades" (Jesus, speaking Aramaic, probably said "sheol") which is described as a place of fiery torment trying to get Abraham to send the Lazarus with water and Abraham describes a great chasm between where he is and the tormenting place where the rich man is so that people cannot cross. Again, this doesn't sound like hell is a place where the wicked simply cease to exist. And, of course, there's the description in Revelation of the "lake of burning sulfur" which is the "second death" (which I, personally, am not opposed to being understood as somewhat metaphorical, since _everything_ in Revelation is somewhat metaphorical) as a place where "they will be tormented day and night, for ever and ever." (Rev 20:10) Those words also have very plain meaning in English. So "conservative" Christians are just interpreting words like "perish, death, consume, destroy" in the light of the passages with words like "everlasting", "forever and ever", and "torment" in them.
@@liljenborg2517 In regards to the word Torment. I think the ECT people cling to one passage with the word Torment but ignore hundreds of passages in the Old and New Testaments. This is what is going on and when you openly look at the Conditional Immortality perspective (and even the Universalist one - although I am not in that camp), you can see a lot of passages which support the Conditional perspective. But you need to be humble enough to consider that there is the possibility you are wrong. And in my experience in Christianity, few Christians behave in a humble manner.
Hi! Progressive Christian here! Sin is real but sin isn’t taught correctly. Anything that falls short of the fruit of the spirit is sin. Anything that attempt to solve your own brokenness with anything that isn’t God & anything that dumps your brokenness on other people is sin.
Just what the devil wants people to think There is no hell and God has no wrath for sinners. Everyone should listen on RUclips to "Sinners in the hand of an angry God" It changed my life It changed my life
When I nearly died (by my own hands, unfortunately) a few years ago and was in a coma for 5 or 6 days I saw a glimpse of hell. It IS real and I know I didn't even see hell itself, just a bit of a foretaste as to what it is and it's NOT GOOD AT ALL.
Ahhh No it’s very real and being privileged of knowing this truth makes it all the more serious for believers to spread the TRUE Gospel. 1 Peter 3:15 Revelation 21:8 Matthew 10:28
I'm not a universalist but I have seen some good arguments put forth that are biblical. How do you interpret 1 Timothy 4:10: For therefor we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. Some have said it just means God blesses both believers and non believers....but this is plainly talking about a saviour and not a blessing. How do I reconcile this scripture with the 2nd death in the lake of fire for those that reject God?
This was a great video on the importance of punitive justice. I'm not sure of Mike Winger's view on hell in general(if he's gone over it in other videos feel free to inform me), but i identify as an annihalationist so i believe the fire of hell is a metaphor for the destruction of the soul and I'm not sure yet whether there is a punitive relative punishment for the unrepentant sins one lived in their life or not before the destruction. Thoughts anyone?
I think God may punish you if you live in sin while you're a believer. You may feel immense guilt and this will turn you away from sin. I'm not sure about punitive punishment though.
What sense does Jesus death make, when unrepentant sinners are going to be completely wiped out anyway? Why would anyone want to be with God, if they can do on earth as they please?
@@jan_777 i am a universalist and I believe thats not the point, anyone can already do as they please if they do not have Jesus as lord, but I believe there will still be punishment in the lake of fire it just will not be forever but of course it will not be pleasant and it will last as long as necessary until they realize they do need a savior and finally knowing the pain their sin has caused
@@jan_777 I feel like this complaint has a hidden assumption that Jesus's death was irrelevant to human salvation. Perhaps no one would go to Heaven if it weren't for His sacrifice. That's why the Gospel is referred to as "the good news". Perhaps even repentant sinners would go to hell if it weren't for Jesus's sacrifice on the cross.
I know he's said in an earlier video that they will be punished for all the sins they did throughout their lifetime and that punishment will be according to the sin they committed, which I agree with. He gave an example of stealing a pencil versus killing a person would need to have different levels of punishment, since the same sentence given is unjust. I heard someone say this recently and I think it's something to ponder on for the eternity argument. Hell at the end of the day is the absence and isolation from God. That is the intended purpose. When you get put there you will never be let out. So let's say you've gone through the punishment for all the sins that you did in life. Since you're stuck there it could be you just continue sinning because it's not like you're going to get out anyway. It then becomes a rinse and repeat process.
I know a contemporary pastor who believes this way, that Hell is not literal. We went to the same Bible college. He is popular and has a following. More and more it's hard to find a solid biblical pastor on the radio.
Is the big issue with Progressive Christianity is that they fall for the secular thought that people are basically good. Because that's the biggest issue here. If people are basically good, then the idea of the wrath of God or any such thing seem incredibly wrong. But if you start from the point of humans being basically evil and opposed to God and in need of salvation because our default state is bad, not good, then that completely changes everything. If you come from the biblical perspective that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. We are all inherently sinful. We are basically bad, not good. We are all deserving this punishment. Then the idea that God has made a way for us to be restored to him and for any of us to be saved is actually incredible. But you can't love the Gospel without first getting that understanding that the base state of humans isn't actually good.
Hell must exist if God is just and holy. If the wicked are not punished, he is not just. If he is not just, then he is corrupt and therefore not holy. Is he is not holy, he is not worthy of worship. This is not, however, the God of the Bible. To say that God is love and not also just means that you lack fundamental understanding of God's character.
@@Max-yb1mx Amen!! Wonderful and succinct answer. It’s also worth noting that God’s mercy springs forth from His wrath. As a just Judge He does and will punish, but He freely offers His gift of grace to us! Infinitely merciful and infinitely just is He. The full picture of a God who is consistent with His own character of being just but also extends such boundless grace at the same time. It’s so weird how before I was a believer, it made no sense to me. Now, it’s so logically consistent and beautiful at the same time that it sends shivers down my back!!
@The bible approves Abortion Are you not an enemy of God? I'm a criminal as well. So is every man and woman. We are all guilty of breaking God's law and he is the judge, jury and executioner. You keep saying that it's because of non-belief, but the demons believe and tremble. They more than believe. They know and yet they have no redemption. It is not a matter of belief. It's a matter of repentance and trust. You don't believe you've done anything wrong yet you are guilty. Either you can accept the grace that has been extended, or not.
@The bible approves Abortion Cough, cough. No, I believe people are terrible regardless of their beliefs. That is why we need a savior. You know like lie, cheat, steal, murder, adultery, idolatry, etc..
So it would be perfectly just for me to look at my children and tell them that if they dont sing my praises by telling me everyday that they love me an appreciate me talk me up to everyone they know I love them completely but if they dont i will beat them incessantly all while reminding them it is their choice whether they love me or not. That its of there own choosing if they do or dont .... That would be my showing perfect love to my children?. Because that's pretty much what the biblical God has done to us humans. Except for instead of beating us daily they're going to punish us for all eternity in hellfire. It's our choice whether or not we worship him but if we dont we burn. Which incidentally completely negates the whole theory and principal purpose of free will. And if you genuinely think it doesn't you have cognitive dissonance that of the likes of an abused child who still thinks their mother is the best even though she beats them bloody everyday😢 facts
The message everyone wants to hear. Stay where you're at and do your best and you get in The Kingdom. No need to repent or have Christ as you Lord. Just keep on sinning and be saved.
I agree but to add on to #6 I could be wrong but His children aka saved Christian would be the ones who God uses “restorative tactics” if we are saved and we are struggling would it be wrong to say that He wouldn’t come and get us in some way such as the parable where He would leave the 99 to bring back the 1
What are some good hands on techniques for teaching the eternal suffering doctrine to my young children? Most of the people they interact with throughout their lifetime are going to burn forever in unimaginable anguish. Can I teach them that without causing psychological issues? Thanks.
What is the use of great bible knowledge if there is a sea of difference between preaching word of Jesus Christ and not practicing it like not ready to sell the properties for the sake of poor, leave worldly things to take sufferings for the sake of Jesus Christ, not able to control the desires for lust and wealth?
What's interesting is there's actually a difference between hell and hell fire.. hell just means the grave or the pit. This is also why King David states he will make his bed and hell which in Hebrew is sheol which means the grave.. hellfire on the other hand is reserved for judgment which has not yet taken place but will happen at the end of the world.
@@edcarson3113 I understand what you're saying but that's not biblical. That's more of a pagan philosophy. The Bible says God alone has immortality and the soul that sinneth shall die.. it doesn't say we just transition over. We sleep in the grave waiting for the Lord's return and the dead in Christ shall rise first and the ones who are alive and remain will be caught up. As for everyone else they will die by the brightness of his coming.
@@justinsmitley7619 The dead though are not DEAD at all, ( Matthew 17:1,2, Luke 16:24, 2 Kings 13:21, Revelation 6:9, 1 Peter 3:19). Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is True food and Blood True drink
@@matthewbroderick8756 Job 14:10-12. Job 14:13-15. Sheol means Hell by the way. It just means the grave.. Ecclesiastes 9:5-10. Luke 8:52. 1 Kings 11:43. John 11:11-14. Go ahead and look up these verses first and then I'll give you more if you'd like there are about 30 more.
@@justinsmitley7619 Again, the dead are NOT DEAD at all, as Jesus Christ conversed with the DEAD Moses and Elijah, ( Matthew 17:1,2), and the DEAD Father Abraham conversed with the DEAD rich man, ( Luke 16:24), as spirits of the just in prison after death were preached to by Jesus, ( 1 Peter 3:19,4,6), . Again, the dead are not DEAD at all, ( Revelation 6:9, 2 Kings 13:21). I can give you dozens more if you like! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is True food and Blood True drink
See, I had a personal theory that properly done punitive just _is_ restorative. Allow me to explain. Many believe that the place of punishment is to serve as a deterrent to others, which makes sense if you haven't researched the matter. All the research seems to indicate that those who don't break laws out of fear of punishment wouldn't have broken them anyway in fear of the social consequences regardless of the legal ones, while those who aren't swayed by social consequences typically can't be "scared straight" even with truly extreme punishments. This is why the three strikes rule is generally a failure. So, I think the reason that we crave punishment is not about a deterrent, but as a sort of community cleansing. When properly done, a punishment takes a criminal and socially redeems them to the community. Obviously our current system is an utter failure at this, but that is another conversation.
@The bible approves Abortion you seem to, like most people with issues with free will, miss understand the concept. Free will does not necessarily assert that there are no external factors, or that you always understand a choice perfectly. It merely asserts that you *do* have a choice in a real practical way. Not all impoverished people are criminals, because poverty doesn't make one a criminal. It merely provides an environment were that option seems attractive. The fact that muslims are not aware that Mohammed is a false prophet doesn't mean that they cannot know. Many do find out despite heavy pressure not to. It is simply that the others choose not to look. Free will is not about being an omnipotent God who can make any choice in any situation and choose the outcome, nor is it about always knowing the outcome and picking the one we want. It is a about the idea that when given a choice between two options, you are capable of making that choice rather than fated to always have made the same decision.
I do think that the flames of Hell are figurative. But my biggest objection to those who would say that, “Hell is JUST a metaphor,” is the word, “JUST.” We often use metaphors and figurative language when the reality we are describing is stronger than what literal descriptions alone can convey. I believe that the flames are metaphor, but they are not JUST metaphor. The reality is not lessened by this, it is worse.
First question was very interesting. Just off the top of my head ... if you have faith of a mustard seed you can say to a mountain to move.... or the one about a rich man, a camel and the eye of a needle. I think I need I need a bible that someone who has more knowledge than I can highlight the passages that are literal and those that are metaphors or simile. It is very confusing to me. There are many passages that on their face seem non metaphorical due to the language style yet don’t seem to hold up under observation like the verse about the elders anointing a sick persons head with oil and getting prayed for and the passage says they will be healed. It doesn’t say, maybe or only if they are right with God ... It would seem non conditional. So very many passages to my limited understanding seem quite clearly metaphorical in nature.
@The bible approves Abortion Psalms 11:5 The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and his soul hates the lover of violence. They were wicked. He brought judgement. It's quite simple.
@The bible approves Abortion he ordered that after hundreds of years of them doing evil, sacrificing their own children, and murdering their neighbors. Which brings us back to the main point and that Gods wrath is just
These truth' apply to those people in places of athority to. People are supposed to know how to judge a law, do righteouseness. That's what righteouseness is.
Hi Mike, thanks for this series, I think it'll be a good resource for the young adults group I help lead! On the topic of Hell, would you ever consider doing a deep dive on annihilationism? It seems to be growing in popularity and I can see why; some of their arguments are pretty compelling (particularly from those who accept conditionalism but reject universalism).
It seems it is both the cross AND the resurrection is absolutely needed. The cross would be the punitive and the resurrection would be the restoration.
2:02-2:11 i do agree that many progressive christians fail to balance the complexity of God...or something. You get the idea. P.S.: John Dominic Crossan, Marcus Borg, Elaine Pagels, and Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer are good examples of this. P.P.S.: The rejection of Apocalypticism in these figures annoys me.
One interesting point: God's anger/wrath is first mentioned in Exodus (in hebrew). In the flood, it isn't anger/wrath what is mentioned. Actually, the first time it's mentioned, God doesn't judge, He helps. Another point, the expression in hebrew for "anger" in the Bible is mostly an analogy. Disclaimer: I believe in God's wrath/anger, and that it's just and it's caused by human's rebel hearts and lives (sin), so it's normal He has this anger. My point is that God's anger/wrath is not as "terrible" than we got from the Reformation. Blessings
I think God always is looking to restore and when a person is saved and repents of living contrary to truth, which is God himself, then indeed there is now no condemnation & no punitive justice for the believer, just God's restorative correction. However, for the individual who lives apart from truth and rejects God's hand of restorative justice, then only punitive justice remains.
I had a progressive associate tell me that sin is simply when we see ourselves differently than God sees us. He doesn't believe that The Flood or the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah were acts of God. He believes that the people's collective consciousness affected the atmosphere causing these events. There's truly an entirely different version of scripture being formed these days.
I was reading one of Ruchard Rohr's books and became uncomfortable. If St Francis was here, he'd probably say that he took a wrong turn. Then I saw him in Oprah's and smoke alarm went off. These people are worshipping themselves- narcissists.
Your analogy of removing the hand of the Law is great. Flowing against the Love 💘 of Gods wrath yeah ✅ right Every Saint encounters daily being surrounded by criminals whether in passing just listening to their verbal assaults upon the at large public signals the multiplying lawlessness spoken of in Matthew 24:12 Crimminals who now openly express their twisted justification for demolishing others, don't want to hear the gospel message. They ll feign blessing others and turn in cursing them in the same sentence. True conviction is meaningless to them . So imagine your will has now been accepted by God. Imagine being trapped in an eternal Prison of your own design where escape is impossible from and the futility in seeking your own death is now off the table. Where your earthly lawlessness that was once tendered by a lawful presence as a means of escape now completely cut off. Imagins now where every second of life becomes infinite chain of eternal forevers . Where there is no escape and your internal sense of death is now magnified exponentially on a scale as that will shock your senses and amaze your soul as you now will instantly KNOW that now is just the beginning of a never ending existence of pure misery. Is all that really worth denying the overflowing love of God graciousness.?×
I love Mike but he, like Alisa, really should on occasion challenge himself by having non-conservative non-evangelical Christians on his show who disagree with him. Instead he and Alisa, the other conservative evangelical gatekeeper of internet Christians, just echo each other. Do they regard Christians who disagree with them as non Christians? And what about scholars who disagree with them? I don’t think I’ve ever seen it, certainly not with Alisa. Her videos on deconstruction are awfully dismissive in their explaining away. Why not interview the deconstructionists instead of psychologizing them with another super conservative evangelical?
We have a problem, trouble, struggle with our personal sinfulness. We flounder against ADONAI sovereignty. When we wrestle, and open up to ADONAI Perspective, Perspicacity, Perspicuity, Providence, Prudence, Precepts Principles, Patience, Probity, and Righteousness. I am a sinner, I am in a love/hate war with myself, as well as with ADONAI. JOHN 3:16, JOHN 3:30 is the antidote, elixir, antibody, cure, remedy, therapy, and treatment. ADONAI gives us the alternative, opportunity, and option to accept, or to reject. We need ADONAI active,and sovereignty in our lives. But we have the volition to turn it down, and walk away, but we must be mature to accept the consequences, not create feel good, narcissistic, hubristic, sententious opinions, and notions. 🙏✝️🔥🛐🤲. As for me I am a worker of iniquity, have transgress the law of ADONAI, trespass ADONAI sovereignty, but HE offers hope, grace, and reconciliation 🌬💨🗣👥👤. This is a wonderous thing for the repentant. 💔💓❤💗. Being a reprobate, and having a sered conscience is not pleasant or a joyful experience personally. ⛓😥😪😓😢😨😰😭🥺🤥🤕🤒🤢
I know that some of those Mike and Alisa are throwing stones at have tried to engage them in conversation regarding the “concerns” they raise, but apparently they, Mike and Alisa, aren’t interested in genuine dialog....they apparently prefer their echo chamber rants and subsequent accolades. Very disappointing and telling.
Yep I agree. They prefer to make God into a boogeyman or punitive and sadistic God and misrepresent those advocating for the restorative viewpoint and annihilation viewpoint which is disappointing. Very sad indeed. I am sure the verse in the bible that states to paraphrase each one will be judged according what they have done will be completely ignored or misinterpreted or they will gaslight us who advocate the restorative point of view. Sometimes you just have to leave people in their echo chambers
Hmmmm, a world with no protection. Let me just step away from my highly advanced computer, walk down the stairs in my multiple floors house, make a nice cup of tea, and sit down on the couch to ponder how cruel and unprotected my existence is.
@@SimpleAmadeus To be fair that is luxury not protection apart from that it gives the same protection as a cave with a door your dry and warm and it will take a couple of seconds to get in. There is plenty of places in the world where people are suffering they can have exactly what you have doesn't stop people coming in and taking whatever they want including people. If you only want to consider the western world then all it takes is for a couple of strangers to get together sign a paper and then they can assault your house the paper is a warrant and they do get it wrong wrong info wrong house and if you act wrong you will be assaulted as well so your safe/protected as long as the government decides or unless wrong doers want in most of the laws that "protect" people are post event so it is not so much protection more something was done feel better? All protection outside of God is a false sense of security.
@@hiddenrambo328 I agree that everything could fall apart in an instant, but that's actually my point. How could I have all these luxuries in a world with NO protection? I agree that God is protecting us in all sorts of ways constantly. Without God, none of this luxury would even be possible. Really, that's what I think hell actually is. I think it's God ultimately taking His hands off the people that reject Him and leaving them to their own devices with no protection from Him any longer. Hell isn't some sort of sadistically designed torture chamber. Hell is a place that could be paradise, except it's filled with the worst people imaginable. What I was trying to highlight is how silly it is of people to have this view of the world that everything is entirely terrible and therefore clearly there is no God, because they see some hand-picked terrible things on the television while sitting on their couch with a hot cup of coffee. Our broken world is a complicated mix of godless human degeneracy and God's guidance. I believe it is to give us the opportunity to fully experience both the terrors of hell and the beauty of God in our first life, and then make a choice which of these things are more appealing to us. Which of these things we dedicate ourselves to.
You don't consider the things that are done in the Court's. We just had a coup by the judicial branch. My daughter was taken from me for no good reason.
Makes me think when Jesus told peter get behind me Satan. Nothing is beyond God. He uses Satan. Even when he let him attack Job. Job grew in his faith over it
These videos are funny because the PCUSA church I grew up in taught us at least half of these heresies. I’ve since moved to PCA, and it’s infinitely better.
I agree but I get confused about God telling us to be forgiving and show love but be angry about some things. I really like how u described it like a parent who loves but if u hurt their child u will see their wrath. I guess what I'm looking for is permission to be angry without fearing Gods wrath on me for being angry
I find the more familiar we are with scripture and how well we understand our own beliefs and can explain them helps cut down on the emotions that come with arguing. Being angry with sin but not the sinner is a tricky one.... we must remember that once we were also without God’s truth at some point in our life and were likely just as bad... so looking at people as with affliction rather than as an enemy.. like doctors do not look at patients as their enemy but the illness.
5:09-5:13 Yes and no. It’s not punitive in the same way that a “human” judge is punitive, and it certainly is restorative, but you’re throwing out a decent amount of creation-based scriptures (Genesis 6-9) if you’re saying God can only be (progressively) restorative.
God's justice is BOTH punitive and Restorative God's Mercy coincides with His Justice, His forgiveness with His Wrath. It was never an "Either-Or" scenario
It’s interesting how “ hell” can be used as a tool to “coerce” non-believers into believing. But this tool is used by other world religions to accomplish the exact same goal. I wonder why?
Another point: if hell is figurative and non-literal, then the same must apply to heaven. Same argument against those who would say hell is not eternal. The same language is used to describe eternal bliss. If hell isn't real and eternal, then heaven can't be either.
There may be a hell, but I do not believe it is eternal. "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Matthew 25:46 The Greek word for eternal or never ending or everlasting in the New Testament is aion. This means a time period whose ending is unknown. But the same word is used for both life and punishment. That's because the word aion changes depending on the word it is defining. A tall man in front of a tall mountain do not have the same height. Is there punishment? Of course! We see it all the time in this life and God makes it clear there will be punishment in the age or ages to come. But it is not never ending. And it is restorative, not retributive. To believe in a God that punishes forever in terrible pain is nothing but sadistic. Pure and simple, God is our father, and he is love. At approx. 2:00 First, we are all God's children. It seems to me that saying some are God's children and some aren't, is like still being stuck back in Jesus's time when the Jewish leaders thought they were "in" and the "sinners" were "out". 2nd, a child molester most likely will suffer punishment, even without God's "wrath". I believe the wrath of God is man's perception of God. 3rd, what if it's your child doing the harming? Are you going to brutally torture him forever? On the subject of being narcissistic or being "all about me" when it comes to God's restoration... First of all, what's wrong with wanting yourself to be restored? You're part of God's creation also! Besides, God has all eternity!! What's the hurry? Also, if you go to a church that believes everyone but you and other christians are going to hell, then you're thinking about yourself. Don't you care about your loved ones and your friends who don't believe as you do? Who could be happy in heaven with loved ones suffering in hell?
Now let's all sing together the secular non-specific spiritual-like but semi- Christian sounding hymn by Leonard Cohen, "Hallelujah."
Amen and Awoman to that!
Always think that song is creepy when sung by kids because of the part about David’s lust.
@@DW-yq4zn LOL yeah it's not a bad song by itself but not really family appropriate. Understanding the meaning of a piece of writing isn't a strength of the type of people who try to use Hallelujah as a hymn.
Man, I used to love the song for the sound and the hallelujah sounded good too, but tried listening again since I got saved and it definitely feels profane.
There's a Christian version of the song that changes the lyrics. It was the first version I heard, so I was confused when I heard the original. I hate the original with a burning passion, but I like the Christian version.
"the cross doesn't make sense if there is no death sentence" - i am so struck by that and challenged to view the cross more rightly and my sin even more awfully!
When you forgive others, your sins won't be so awful. You will know that God doesn't hold yours against you.
Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you
Forgiveness, not sacrifice is the way out of guilt.
Matthew 12:7, NIV: If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.
@@robertdouglas8895 These verses have been taken out of context.
>Jesus is not saying that you receive justification from forgiving others. He is saying that when we pray to god, we should forgive others, so that we can reconcile our fellowship with god when it is hindered by sin. This is directed at believers, who are already justified from faith. He is reemphasizing the importance of forgiving others, indicating that there is a direct relationship between having been forgiven by god, and forgiving others.
>Forgive your trespasses refers to restoring a personal relationship with god, after already having received justification.
>The words “I desire mercy, not sacrifice” are actually quotes from the OT, which Jesus frequently quoted, and are initially spoken in the book of Hosea, in the context of a nation of sinners, whom performed sacrifices to god in exchange for the forgiveness of sins, but did not really participate in the covenant they made with the lord. The ceremonies of the northern kingdom had become polluted, made sacrifices, but did not care about their relation with god, deriving the sacrifices of their intended purpose, making them just as useless as pagan ones.
>When Jesus quotes the book of Hosea, he is doing so in the context of eating with sinners, when explaining why to the Pharisees. “Sacrifice” meant observance of religious rituals, while “mercy” (the septuagint’s rendering of the Hebrew word hesed, meaning steadfast love) which would have led the Pharisees to care for the sinners as Jesus did, as steadfast love was more important to god, as sacrifice is ultimately meaningless, without love or care for the covenant, the relationship the people of Israel had entered into with god.
>Ultimately, Jesus performed the ultimate sacrifice, paying our debt, as a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins, I.e the lamb of god, who takes away the sins of the world, because the hebrews would sacrifice a lamb for forgiveness of their individual sins, and, in order for that sacrifice to have any meaning, and purpose, it requires “Mercy”(Steadfast love) in Jesus Christ, the son of god, the lord of all creation, so that the sacrifice he performed for us, would allow us to be saved after entering into a relationship with him.
So it would be perfectly just for me to look at my children and tell them that if they dont sing my praises by telling me everyday that they love me an appreciate me talk me up to everyone they know I love them completely but if they dont i will beat them incessantly all while reminding them it is their choice whether they love me or not. That its of there own choosing if they do or dont .... That would be my showing perfect love to my children?. Because that's pretty much what the biblical God has done to us humans. Except for instead of beating us daily they're going to punish us for all eternity in hellfire. It's our choice whether or not we worship him but if we dont we burn. Which incidentally completely negates the whole theory and principal purpose of free will. And if you genuinely think it doesn't you have cognitive dissonance that of the likes of an abused child who still thinks their mother is the best even though she beats them bloody everyday😢
@@AngelINTheMatrix That’s a complete distortion. By your logic, the criminal justice system negates free will, because you can either make the right choice and obey the law, or the wrong choice and be punished for it. You completely forget about sin apparently, because the human race is totally not terrible in any way. *God loves us, but god is also just, and because god is just, he has to punish us for our sins.* when we are separated from god, we live and die in sin, and if we do, then we are condemned to hell for our sins, for that is our just punishment. *God loves us despite our wickedness, so much that despite how much we deserve to be punished for our atrocities, he was willing to walk amongst us as a person, and suffer the punishment we are supposed receive, so that all is required is to admit to him that we are sinners in need of a savior, and that he is our savior.* Faith in god is all that’s needed, to find forgiveness for our sins. It’s your choice to have faith and love god or not, just like it’s your choice to live by the law, or murder someone and go to jail. All you have done is create a twisted caricature or what you think god is, or does. And by the way, insulting people is nothing but ad hominem fallacy, meant to degrade and demean others to attack them instead of their argument. I am open to answering more questions if you have them.
Edit: And no, people don’t have cognitive dissonance just because they disagree with your incredibly warped and uninformed view of Christianity.
@@AngelINTheMatrix look up Edward Fudge. God bless
Thanks Mike. Sometimes my own narcissistic ways finds justification of my own sins. I needed that.
I'm starting to think the people who made this up were high. Literally high, not metaphorically.
🤣
lol 😆 😆
So like...
They're on the roof?
That's future Christians. They usually see Jesus when they are high on crack, and for some reason, that's a reliable vision.
The first one sounds like something a hippie at Woodstock would say
Woodstock is the spring of the whole progressive Gen Z spirit.
I lol'd so hard at "I guess if it's swimming in the flood your analogy works"
*Great* points Mike!! God bless to *ALL* my Brother's and Sister's out there 💜💜💜
When you were talking about cops not doing anything to criminals, I immediately thought of what has been happening in Portland and Seattle for the past several months.
This would be a great topic for you to do a full video on in the future.
For someone with my attention span, 10 minutes is a full video 😂
Wow! One of the very best answers I've heard on this topic! Thank you!!
This is coming from the generation where everyone got a trophy...
Not their fault, blame the generation who gave them all the trophies. They raised them that way.
@@TGuard00014 Both can be held accountable.
These views were actually created way before the everybody gets a trophy thing. Stop using slogans and start using logic and you'll avoid these abusive honor-shame culture tactics.
We didn't all get a trophy in my generation. I rejected the idea of God's never ending and excessive, obsessive wrath a long time ago.
Liberal Christianity was the only interpretation of the faith that could have kept me a Christian. I'd have become and atheist a decade sooner had I not been able to see God through a different lens.
@@ChrisFineganTunes How do you interpret scripture such as Revelation 14?
Thank you Mike for these short snippets of teaching. They are very accessible and complement your general teaching very well.
Love you guys!! Thanks for the insight and explanation!
Something I grapple with the most, is the idea of the people I love and anyone else for that matter going to hell for eternity. I feel that this is an actual strain on my mental health, my relationship with God and my hope. Any advice?
@Elijah Templeton thank you that’s good. 🙏♥️
I have a sermon that may help with the idea of hell
@@khanburger3610 could you share it please? I feel exactly the same as what Lisa says
Hell is real, but so it the truth of the word of our Lord and savior Jesus christ. He covers our sin as long as we believe in him. We can get to know Jesus and get closer to him. And live inside of him and walk inside of him. We can be saved and live eternity with him. We need to be an obedient servant for him. We need to follow the 10 commandments and ways he wants us to live.
The bible is the word and the truth. Jesus is close to us all the time if we believe in him. He can save us from anything even death
God’s anger is a fire of love!
There's some element of truth to justice being restorative rather than punitive, but that's only in that it is restorative because it's punitive. Because God has punished Jesus on the cross, the payment for my sin has been payed and I no longer owe it, provided I come under the sacrifice of Christ. In that sense, God's justice is fulfilled through mercy in my life. For anyone not under Christ though, the punishment still needs to be payed.
Yes exactly Christ being punished on the cross was to restore us back to Him, If we receive the sacrifice that Christ did for us on the cross. Anyone who doesn't is still under punishment by default.
Stephen, yet, even believers in Jesus Christ shall be punished for the bad done in the body, ( 1 Corinthians 5:10, Matthew 5:22, Matthew 12:36, Luke 12:48, Luke 6:37,38), as Jesus Christ took on the Eternal punishment due our sins, but not the temporaral punishments. Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is True food and Blood True drink
@@only1abiola Yet, even believers in Jesus Christ shall be punished as well, ( 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 6:37,38, Matthew 5:22, Luke 12:48, Matthew 12:36) as Jesus Christ took on the Eternal punishment due to sin, but not the temporaral punishments! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is True food and Blood True drink
I know sometimes I don't always agree with you but throughout this whole list you have been on the money. Keep up the good work. I wish christains would come together regaurdless of out differences and talk these things out. Maybe then we could help people more than we confuse them or mislead them.
The BIGGEST lie of the devil in the Church today is that, "human beings are not that bad, God loves us all. Just keep living our lives our way"
THAT'S A LIE FROM satan!!
Genesis 6:5
- And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
The biggest lie in the Church today is that the word ekklesia (translated as the word church by a King with an agenda) is a building or institution built by men and registered with the government. That’s the biggest lie in Christianity. That Jesus is building religious clubs called churches.
So people are in a place/state that flows against the love of God and in time are somehow magically restored to righteousness, while in THAT state? Err yeah.. sure. 😅
"Best case it is annihilation/non-existence, worst case it is eternal torment..."
Actually, the best case is eventual universal salvation, based on verses like this:
"As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive ... God [will] be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:22,28)
"As one trespass [Adam's] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness [Jesus'] leads to justification and life for all men." (Romans 5:18)
"God has committed all to disobedience that he might have mercy on all ... From him and through him and to him are all things." (Romans 11:32,36)
"...every knee shall bow to me [God], and every tongue shall confess to God." (Romans 14:11)
" ... at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:10-11)
"And I [Jesus], when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." (John 12:32)
"And every creature which is in heaven and on earth and under the earth I heard saying, 'Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb forever.'" (Revelation 5:13)
"O you who hear prayer, to you shall all flesh come. When iniquities prevail against me, you atone for our transgressions." (Psalm 65:2-3)
"All you have made will praise you, O Lord." (Psalm 145:10a)
"I will not contend forever, nor will I always be angry; for 'the spirit would grow faint before me, and the breath of life that I made'." (Isaiah 57:16)
"The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end. ... " (Lamentations 3:22)
Also see John 17:2, Romans 5:19-20, 8:19-21, Ephesians 1:10, Philippians 3:21, Colossians 1:20, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, 4:10, Titus 2:11, 1 Peter 4:6, 1 John 2:2, 4:14, Revelation 15:4, 21:5,24-25, 22:2, combination of (Revelation 22:1,14-15,17a,17c), Psalm 22:27,29, Isaiah 25:6-8, 45:22-25, Lamentations 3:31, Ezekiel 16:53,55, Malachi 3:2-3
Recommended Reading: _Hope Beyond Hell_ by Gerry Beauchemin & _Heaven's Doors_ by George Sarris
Thank you Mike and Alisa💕
7:13 "Imagine if we lived in a world" We don't have to imagine the world you describe at that point, Mike! It's already the world we live in.
YES! It's not punitive or restorative justice, it's BOTH. Amen. Thank you Mike. I like the way you put balance to this.
Hearing this statement, I wondered:
Bible Project founder, did you write this? lol
Thank you Mike and Alisa for your genuine approach to the scriptures. I agree with most of the things you have to share. I do however think that it would be beneficial to reconsider what the Bible says about God's Judgement of the wicked and unrepentant. DISCLAIMER: I believe God is just in punishing unrepentant sinners. My question is this: Would it be just and fair for God to punish individuals for an eternity as a result of, say 90 years of persistent sinning? Here are some Bible verses speaking about God's judgement of the wicked that I hope you will consider, along with my comments:
1. Romans 6:23 - The wages of sin is death. Death is what you get in return for being a sinner who has not repented and accepted the free gift of God. The gift is life, the result of sin is death.
2. Malachi 4:1-3 - The wicked are to be consumed. They will be turned to ash. Nothing of the former things will remain.
3. Psalm 37:9-11, 20 - The wicked will be no more.
4. John 3:16 - Jesus Himself said that he came that those who believe in Him shall not perish. What does it mean to perish?
5. Matthew 10:28 - Hell is the place where the destruction of the wicked takes place.
6. Jude 7; 2 Peter 2:6 - Sodom and Gomorrah were burned by eternal hell fire, yet they are not still burning today. How do we make sense of this?
7. Revelation 14:9-11 - The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever. What happens when you burn up a candle and it goes out? The smoke rises even after the fire is gone.
8. Isaiah 34:8-10 - Revelation has many references to the Old Testament. Revelation 14:9-11 has strong reference to this passage in Isaiah. So how do we explain the words “forever” and “it shall not be quenched”? Can anyone stop something God has put forth? Likewise, nobody can stop the fire from carrying out God’s plans by quenching it. A fire that is not quenched simply burns until it runs out of fuel.
9. Jonah 2:6, 10 and 1 Samuel 1:22, 28 - We can see that elsewhere in the Bible the word forever is used in a temporary context. Jonah was only in the belly of the fish for three days, however it may have seemed like an eternity while he was there.
10. Revelation 20:9 - If God is love, then everything He does must be out of love. It is in mercy that God does not burn people for eternity - He brings just punishment, and it is important to note that ultimately He acts justly to everybody. It is not just to punish people without end; it is just to punish them according to what they have each personally done, and then to make an end to them so that their persistent sinful ways don't impact those who have accepted God's gift of salvation and righteousness by faith.
11. Rev 21:4 - It is an act of both mercy and justice to put an end to those who chose to remain slaves to sin and suffering. There will be no more crying or pain, not only for those who are saved, but for those who are destroyed. Yet it is a tragedy that they will not have the blessing of experiencing eternity with God.
12. Rev 15:1 and Psalm 30:5 - God's wrath does end - He doesn't pour it out forever - only until it is satisfied in its just fulfilment.
I share with love in Christ, and pray God continues to bless your much needed ministry :)
It's restorative when someone receives punishment show's how our actions effect other's her on earth but also those in Heaven.
@The bible approves Abortion There is morality in it because it also shapes your worldview. Which countries have the best human rights? I'll give you a hint, they're based on Western society which was heavily shaped by Judeo-Christian values. Now, it would be manipulative if, like in the Quran, we saw that God specifically turned people away from Him. But using the Christian worldview, God values love more than blind obedience, and you cannot have love without free will. It's only manipulation if you have a twisted view of love.
This is the same as not understanding an actual gift vs a bribe. If you think a parent buying a child a gift because they love them is the same as the parent buying the child the book because they want the child to love them back, you should really step back and take a look at your own perspective. They are two different intentions. Not to mention, this isn't some specific action that gets decided like the Egyptian After-life. There isn't a final exam that you can pass with Christianity, it's merely cause and effect. As water flows from top to bottom and follows gravity, those who forsake God will end up in Hell. It's not a threat, it's just a consequence.
If that's not enough, I challenge you to use your own argument against you and the only reason you don't believe is because you grew up indoctrinated in thinking there is no God and that everyone else who thinks there is a God is stupid. The crux issue being that you cannot prove anyone wrong, and you assume that no one else can prove themselves correct, which then becomes moot because you won't be willing to listen to them, and they certainly won't listen to you in return.
@The bible approves Abortion Why is slavery and rape wrong? According to your worldview, there is nothing wrong with either. Rape is even a natural occurrence in the animal kingdom. Your worldview claims we are just a bundle of cells living in a senseless, purposeless universe. Your ancestors were literal fish according to your worldview. So why should we behave any different than animals if there is no objective morality?
The problem is, in order to make an moral claim you have to borrow from the Christian worldview, which states that objective moral values do exist and that humans are precious and valuable because they are made in the image of God (thus, should be treated with love, respect and dignity); otherwise, you’re just voicing your opinion and your argument is weightless. You have no grounds to argue for anything moral because anything you say is nothing more than an opinion. Only from the perspective of objective morality can rape be recognised and condemned for the evil it truly is. Outside of this framework, evil doesn’t even exist.
Having realised how hopeless the atheistic position is, I do hope you give your life to Christ. You’re obviously passionate about people and want to safeguard those who are vulnerable from being mistreated, but this only makes sense in the Christian worldview. It’s futile to argue any other way. Please, repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. May the Lord show you His salvation.
@@johnbuscher well said
@The bible approves Abortion ‘morality is based on our wellbeing’ says who? You and your subjective opinion?
Either you didn’t read what I wrote or you simply don’t understand. The ironic thing is, in order to even allege that my God has committed or commanded a terrible act you have to assume that objective morality exists, which presupposes a personal, moral law giver, otherwise known as God. In other words, in order to assert that my God has committed or commanded a terrible act, you have to presuppose that a God exists in the first place; otherwise, you’re stealing from my worldview and you’re being logically inconsistent.
So long as you cling to atheism, any moral claim you make (if you’re going to be consistent with your worldview) is reduced to nothing more than an opinion.
Yes! Anger can be righteous, hatred can be righteous. Because God is righteous, and his anger is righteous, and his hatred is righteous, just as much as his mercy and his grace are righteous.
what does "swimming against the flow of God's love" even mean?
Like all New Age stuff, it means whatever you want it to as long as it makes you feel good.
I thought they meant that hell isn’t real so why worry. Idk weird
@@AngelJuliet of course that is what it means to them. It makes them feel good that there is no “bad place” for them in the end. No matter how they live their lives. It is very sad actually.
@The bible approves Abortion Not a particular god. The ONLY god, the one who created you and i, and everything around us.
@The bible approves Abortion So, you have never read the Bible, have you?
If the wrath of God is merely metaphorical, that suggests that "sin" is also metaphorical. If God doesn't get angry at us when we hurt people, or ourselves, then he doesn't have much love for us or the people we're hurting. (Which suggests that the "flow of God's love" our "sin" is "swimming against" isn't all that much of a flow.)
You really end up with the impression that the "progressive" Christians doesn't really consider anything actually "sin" except the "intolerance" of calling things the Bible says are sinful "sin".
You will find many bible believing Christians do not believe in the doctrine of eternal conscious torment. Those believers generally believe in Conditional Immortality. They believe the words perish, death, consume, destroy, etc all means exactly the same as we understand them in English. None of the above words mean everlasting torture to the everyday English speaker on the street. So why do “conservative” Christians seem to insert another meaning into words which have a very clear meaning to most people. Death means death. An Apple which perishes isn’t burning in flames for all eternity, so how do you read that word and come to everlasting torture?
@@lwedel3361 "He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with _everlasting destruction_ and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." 1 Thess 1:8-9 The "everlasting" there tells us that the "destruction" is not: they're destroyed forever, but that they're forever _being_ destroyed. When Jesus talks about those "shut outside" where there is "weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth that doesn't sound like hell is non-existence. Or there's that story of the rich man and Lazarus where the rich man is in "hades" (Jesus, speaking Aramaic, probably said "sheol") which is described as a place of fiery torment trying to get Abraham to send the Lazarus with water and Abraham describes a great chasm between where he is and the tormenting place where the rich man is so that people cannot cross. Again, this doesn't sound like hell is a place where the wicked simply cease to exist.
And, of course, there's the description in Revelation of the "lake of burning sulfur" which is the "second death" (which I, personally, am not opposed to being understood as somewhat metaphorical, since _everything_ in Revelation is somewhat metaphorical) as a place where "they will be tormented day and night, for ever and ever." (Rev 20:10) Those words also have very plain meaning in English.
So "conservative" Christians are just interpreting words like "perish, death, consume, destroy" in the light of the passages with words like "everlasting", "forever and ever", and "torment" in them.
@@liljenborg2517 In regards to the word Torment. I think the ECT people cling to one passage with the word Torment but ignore hundreds of passages in the Old and New Testaments. This is what is going on and when you openly look at the Conditional Immortality perspective (and even the Universalist one - although I am not in that camp), you can see a lot of passages which support the Conditional perspective. But you need to be humble enough to consider that there is the possibility you are wrong. And in my experience in Christianity, few Christians behave in a humble manner.
Hi! Progressive Christian here! Sin is real but sin isn’t taught correctly. Anything that falls short of the fruit of the spirit is sin. Anything that attempt to solve your own brokenness with anything that isn’t God & anything that dumps your brokenness on other people is sin.
Just what the devil wants people to think There is no hell and God has no wrath for sinners.
Everyone should listen on RUclips to
"Sinners in the hand of an angry God"
It changed my life It changed my life
When I nearly died (by my own hands, unfortunately) a few years ago and was in a coma for 5 or 6 days I saw a glimpse of hell. It IS real and I know I didn't even see hell itself, just a bit of a foretaste as to what it is and it's NOT GOOD AT ALL.
Thank you for speaking/teaching on this topic.
The problem with God's justice being restorative as you mentioned is that we as sinful human beings want mercy for us and justice for others !
Wow. Deep and so true.👍🏼
Ahhh No it’s very real and being privileged of knowing this truth makes it all the more serious for believers to spread the TRUE Gospel.
1 Peter 3:15
Revelation 21:8
Matthew 10:28
I'm not a universalist but I have seen some good arguments put forth that are biblical. How do you interpret 1 Timothy 4:10:
For therefor we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Some have said it just means God blesses both believers and non believers....but this is plainly talking about a saviour and not a blessing. How do I reconcile this scripture with the 2nd death in the lake of fire for those that reject God?
A metaphor for a metaphor - good catch!
Righteous indignation is indeed righteous.
These are really good videos! Can't wait to see the rest!
This was a great video on the importance of punitive justice. I'm not sure of Mike Winger's view on hell in general(if he's gone over it in other videos feel free to inform me), but i identify as an annihalationist so i believe the fire of hell is a metaphor for the destruction of the soul and I'm not sure yet whether there is a punitive relative punishment for the unrepentant sins one lived in their life or not before the destruction. Thoughts anyone?
I think God may punish you if you live in sin while you're a believer. You may feel immense guilt and this will turn you away from sin. I'm not sure about punitive punishment though.
What sense does Jesus death make, when unrepentant sinners are going to be completely wiped out anyway? Why would anyone want to be with God, if they can do on earth as they please?
@@jan_777 i am a universalist and I believe thats not the point, anyone can already do as they please if they do not have Jesus as lord, but I believe there will still be punishment in the lake of fire it just will not be forever but of course it will not be pleasant and it will last as long as necessary until they realize they do need a savior and finally knowing the pain their sin has caused
@@jan_777 I feel like this complaint has a hidden assumption that Jesus's death was irrelevant to human salvation. Perhaps no one would go to Heaven if it weren't for His sacrifice. That's why the Gospel is referred to as "the good news". Perhaps even repentant sinners would go to hell if it weren't for Jesus's sacrifice on the cross.
I know he's said in an earlier video that they will be punished for all the sins they did throughout their lifetime and that punishment will be according to the sin they committed, which I agree with. He gave an example of stealing a pencil versus killing a person would need to have different levels of punishment, since the same sentence given is unjust. I heard someone say this recently and I think it's something to ponder on for the eternity argument. Hell at the end of the day is the absence and isolation from God. That is the intended purpose. When you get put there you will never be let out. So let's say you've gone through the punishment for all the sins that you did in life. Since you're stuck there it could be you just continue sinning because it's not like you're going to get out anyway. It then becomes a rinse and repeat process.
I know a contemporary pastor who believes this way, that Hell is not literal. We went to the same Bible college. He is popular and has a following.
More and more it's hard to find a solid biblical pastor on the radio.
Is the big issue with Progressive Christianity is that they fall for the secular thought that people are basically good. Because that's the biggest issue here. If people are basically good, then the idea of the wrath of God or any such thing seem incredibly wrong. But if you start from the point of humans being basically evil and opposed to God and in need of salvation because our default state is bad, not good, then that completely changes everything. If you come from the biblical perspective that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. We are all inherently sinful. We are basically bad, not good. We are all deserving this punishment. Then the idea that God has made a way for us to be restored to him and for any of us to be saved is actually incredible. But you can't love the Gospel without first getting that understanding that the base state of humans isn't actually good.
This is just so so good
I'm having a hard time finding that list of progressive Christian...whatever. Does anyone have the link?
Well camouflages.. sheep’s clothing
this is important material - thanks for this series
Hell must exist if God is just and holy. If the wicked are not punished, he is not just. If he is not just, then he is corrupt and therefore not holy. Is he is not holy, he is not worthy of worship.
This is not, however, the God of the Bible. To say that God is love and not also just means that you lack fundamental understanding of God's character.
@The bible approves Abortion If a judge allows every criminal to go free without sentencing, he's not just. He's corrupt.
@@Max-yb1mx Amen!! Wonderful and succinct answer. It’s also worth noting that God’s mercy springs forth from His wrath. As a just Judge He does and will punish, but He freely offers His gift of grace to us! Infinitely merciful and infinitely just is He. The full picture of a God who is consistent with His own character of being just but also extends such boundless grace at the same time.
It’s so weird how before I was a believer, it made no sense to me. Now, it’s so logically consistent and beautiful at the same time that it sends shivers down my back!!
@The bible approves Abortion Are you not an enemy of God? I'm a criminal as well. So is every man and woman. We are all guilty of breaking God's law and he is the judge, jury and executioner. You keep saying that it's because of non-belief, but the demons believe and tremble. They more than believe. They know and yet they have no redemption.
It is not a matter of belief. It's a matter of repentance and trust. You don't believe you've done anything wrong yet you are guilty. Either you can accept the grace that has been extended, or not.
@The bible approves Abortion Cough, cough. No, I believe people are terrible regardless of their beliefs. That is why we need a savior. You know like lie, cheat, steal, murder, adultery, idolatry, etc..
Thank you for sharing the truth. God has many attributes. God is love! But God is also a God of wrath!
This was a GREAT series. Loved it if you can't tell.
Please will you address issues with The Bible Project theology
It's because God is love that He has wrath for sin!
Is it tomorrow already? Thanks Ps Mike !
Have you gotten a response from the guy at Ragamuffin TV? He made an angry sounding post recently. (Not referencing you or Alisa)
So it would be perfectly just for me to look at my children and tell them that if they dont sing my praises by telling me everyday that they love me an appreciate me talk me up to everyone they know I love them completely but if they dont i will beat them incessantly all while reminding them it is their choice whether they love me or not. That its of there own choosing if they do or dont .... That would be my showing perfect love to my children?. Because that's pretty much what the biblical God has done to us humans. Except for instead of beating us daily they're going to punish us for all eternity in hellfire. It's our choice whether or not we worship him but if we dont we burn. Which incidentally completely negates the whole theory and principal purpose of free will. And if you genuinely think it doesn't you have cognitive dissonance that of the likes of an abused child who still thinks their mother is the best even though she beats them bloody everyday😢 facts
The message everyone wants to hear. Stay where you're at and do your best and you get in The Kingdom. No need to repent or have Christ as you Lord. Just keep on sinning and be saved.
I agree but to add on to #6 I could be wrong but His children aka saved Christian would be the ones who God uses “restorative tactics” if we are saved and we are struggling would it be wrong to say that He wouldn’t come and get us in some way such as the parable where He would leave the 99 to bring back the 1
Thanks for this!
What are some good hands on techniques for teaching the eternal suffering doctrine to my young children? Most of the people they interact with throughout their lifetime are going to burn forever in unimaginable anguish. Can I teach them that without causing psychological issues? Thanks.
Lake of Fire is so literal in Rev 20.
What is the use of great bible knowledge if there is a sea of difference between preaching word of Jesus Christ and not practicing it like not ready to sell the properties for the sake of poor, leave worldly things to take sufferings for the sake of Jesus Christ, not able to control the desires for lust and wealth?
What's interesting is there's actually a difference between hell and hell fire.. hell just means the grave or the pit. This is also why King David states he will make his bed and hell which in Hebrew is sheol which means the grave.. hellfire on the other hand is reserved for judgment which has not yet taken place but will happen at the end of the world.
The grave is one thing, that’s for the body. The pit is hell where the soul goes.
@@edcarson3113 I understand what you're saying but that's not biblical. That's more of a pagan philosophy. The Bible says God alone has immortality and the soul that sinneth shall die.. it doesn't say we just transition over. We sleep in the grave waiting for the Lord's return and the dead in Christ shall rise first and the ones who are alive and remain will be caught up. As for everyone else they will die by the brightness of his coming.
@@justinsmitley7619 The dead though are not DEAD at all, ( Matthew 17:1,2, Luke 16:24, 2 Kings 13:21, Revelation 6:9, 1 Peter 3:19). Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is True food and Blood True drink
@@matthewbroderick8756 Job 14:10-12. Job 14:13-15. Sheol means Hell by the way. It just means the grave.. Ecclesiastes 9:5-10. Luke 8:52. 1 Kings 11:43. John 11:11-14.
Go ahead and look up these verses first and then I'll give you more if you'd like there are about 30 more.
@@justinsmitley7619 Again, the dead are NOT DEAD at all, as Jesus Christ conversed with the DEAD Moses and Elijah, ( Matthew 17:1,2), and the DEAD Father Abraham conversed with the DEAD rich man, ( Luke 16:24), as spirits of the just in prison after death were preached to by Jesus, ( 1 Peter 3:19,4,6), .
Again, the dead are not DEAD at all, ( Revelation 6:9, 2 Kings 13:21). I can give you dozens more if you like! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is True food and Blood True drink
See, I had a personal theory that properly done punitive just _is_ restorative. Allow me to explain.
Many believe that the place of punishment is to serve as a deterrent to others, which makes sense if you haven't researched the matter. All the research seems to indicate that those who don't break laws out of fear of punishment wouldn't have broken them anyway in fear of the social consequences regardless of the legal ones, while those who aren't swayed by social consequences typically can't be "scared straight" even with truly extreme punishments. This is why the three strikes rule is generally a failure.
So, I think the reason that we crave punishment is not about a deterrent, but as a sort of community cleansing. When properly done, a punishment takes a criminal and socially redeems them to the community. Obviously our current system is an utter failure at this, but that is another conversation.
@The bible approves Abortion you seem to, like most people with issues with free will, miss understand the concept. Free will does not necessarily assert that there are no external factors, or that you always understand a choice perfectly. It merely asserts that you *do* have a choice in a real practical way.
Not all impoverished people are criminals, because poverty doesn't make one a criminal. It merely provides an environment were that option seems attractive.
The fact that muslims are not aware that Mohammed is a false prophet doesn't mean that they cannot know. Many do find out despite heavy pressure not to. It is simply that the others choose not to look.
Free will is not about being an omnipotent God who can make any choice in any situation and choose the outcome, nor is it about always knowing the outcome and picking the one we want. It is a about the idea that when given a choice between two options, you are capable of making that choice rather than fated to always have made the same decision.
Hell and wrath are swimming against the flow of Gods love for sure, but it truly is hell and wrath and eternal at that.
I do think that the flames of Hell are figurative. But my biggest objection to those who would say that, “Hell is JUST a metaphor,” is the word, “JUST.” We often use metaphors and figurative language when the reality we are describing is stronger than what literal descriptions alone can convey. I believe that the flames are metaphor, but they are not JUST metaphor. The reality is not lessened by this, it is worse.
First question was very interesting. Just off the top of my head ... if you have faith of a mustard seed you can say to a mountain to move.... or the one about a rich man, a camel and the eye of a needle. I think I need I need a bible that someone who has more knowledge than I can highlight the passages that are literal and those that are metaphors or simile. It is very confusing to me. There are many passages that on their face seem non metaphorical due to the language style yet don’t seem to hold up under observation like the verse about the elders anointing a sick persons head with oil and getting prayed for and the passage says they will be healed. It doesn’t say, maybe or only if they are right with God ... It would seem non conditional. So very many passages to my limited understanding seem quite clearly metaphorical in nature.
It would be so hard to explain Ananias and Sapphira with this outlook of a purely restorative God.
Thankyou so much pastor winger.
If you have no actual Biblically correct understanding of who God is then you won’t know how to interpret aspects of his character
@The bible approves Abortion Not quite. Please read John 3:16.
@The bible approves Abortion do you have a scripture reference concerning those things
@The bible approves Abortion 1st, if God kills someone, does He murder them?
@The bible approves Abortion Psalms 11:5 The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and his soul hates the lover of violence.
They were wicked. He brought judgement. It's quite simple.
@The bible approves Abortion he ordered that after hundreds of years of them doing evil, sacrificing their own children, and murdering their neighbors. Which brings us back to the main point and that Gods wrath is just
This refusing to right off things as punitive is where the Christian's fail in this country.
These truth' apply to those people in places of athority to.
People are supposed to know how to judge a law, do righteouseness. That's what righteouseness is.
Hi Mike, thanks for this series, I think it'll be a good resource for the young adults group I help lead!
On the topic of Hell, would you ever consider doing a deep dive on annihilationism? It seems to be growing in popularity and I can see why; some of their arguments are pretty compelling (particularly from those who accept conditionalism but reject universalism).
Oh, it looks like they've noticed this video- Rethinking Hell is posting a response to this video on Feb. 1
Committed an conformed to the Word of God is what every Christian should aspire to!
" hey man, your just swimming against the flow of God's love"- sounds like something a 70's hippie would say.
Love the illustration calling us the criminals!
It seems it is both the cross AND the resurrection is absolutely needed. The cross would be the punitive and the resurrection would be the restoration.
2:02-2:11 i do agree that many progressive christians fail to balance the complexity of God...or something. You get the idea.
P.S.: John Dominic Crossan, Marcus Borg, Elaine Pagels, and Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer are good examples of this.
P.P.S.: The rejection of Apocalypticism in these figures annoys me.
Greetings from Los Angeles
Great analysis, Mike! I like this series a lot b/c the topics pertain to major spiritual issues (not dinos - just sayin').
One interesting point: God's anger/wrath is first mentioned in Exodus (in hebrew). In the flood, it isn't anger/wrath what is mentioned. Actually, the first time it's mentioned, God doesn't judge, He helps.
Another point, the expression in hebrew for "anger" in the Bible is mostly an analogy.
Disclaimer: I believe in God's wrath/anger, and that it's just and it's caused by human's rebel hearts and lives (sin), so it's normal He has this anger. My point is that God's anger/wrath is not as "terrible" than we got from the Reformation.
Blessings
I think God always is looking to restore and when a person is saved and repents of living contrary to truth, which is God himself, then indeed there is now no condemnation & no punitive justice for the believer, just God's restorative correction.
However, for the individual who lives apart from truth and rejects God's hand of restorative justice, then only punitive justice remains.
I had a progressive associate tell me that sin is simply when we see ourselves differently than God sees us.
He doesn't believe that The Flood or the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah were acts of God. He believes that the people's collective consciousness affected the atmosphere causing these events.
There's truly an entirely different version of scripture being formed these days.
Narcissistic root
@@reecew5677 very
@@inmyhumbleopinion_ pray for him! Nothing is too hard for God
I was reading one of Ruchard Rohr's books and became uncomfortable. If St Francis was here, he'd probably say that he took a wrong turn. Then I saw him in Oprah's and smoke alarm went off. These people are worshipping themselves- narcissists.
"Imagine if we lived in a world where the criminals just run wild..."
Unfortunately in 2023 we have reached that point.
1:26-1:30 That’s a simplistic analysis of what the annihilationist position is.
4:22-4:28 Oh i disagree with that.
With what exactly?
Your analogy of removing the hand of the Law is great. Flowing against the Love 💘 of Gods wrath yeah ✅ right
Every Saint encounters daily being surrounded by criminals whether in passing just listening to their verbal assaults upon the at large public signals the multiplying lawlessness spoken of in Matthew 24:12
Crimminals who now openly express
their twisted justification for demolishing others, don't want to hear the gospel message. They ll feign blessing others and turn in cursing them in the same sentence. True conviction is meaningless to them .
So imagine your will has now been accepted by God.
Imagine being trapped in an eternal Prison of your own design where escape is impossible from and the futility in seeking your own death is now off the table.
Where your earthly lawlessness that was once tendered by a lawful presence as a means of escape now completely cut off.
Imagins now where every second of life becomes infinite chain of eternal forevers . Where there is no escape and your internal sense of death is now magnified exponentially on a scale as that will shock your senses and amaze your soul as you now will instantly KNOW that now is just the beginning of a never ending existence of pure misery.
Is all that really worth denying the overflowing love of God graciousness.?×
We all understand scripture according to our level of Knowledge.
I love Mike but he, like Alisa, really should on occasion challenge himself by having non-conservative non-evangelical Christians on his show who disagree with him. Instead he and Alisa, the other conservative evangelical gatekeeper of internet Christians, just echo each other. Do they regard Christians who disagree with them as non Christians? And what about scholars who disagree with them? I don’t think I’ve ever seen it, certainly not with Alisa. Her videos on deconstruction are awfully dismissive in their explaining away. Why not interview the deconstructionists instead of psychologizing them with another super conservative evangelical?
YOU GOT TO BE JOKING ME !!
We have a problem, trouble, struggle with our personal sinfulness. We flounder against ADONAI sovereignty. When we wrestle, and open up to ADONAI Perspective, Perspicacity, Perspicuity, Providence, Prudence, Precepts Principles, Patience, Probity, and Righteousness. I am a sinner, I am in a love/hate war with myself, as well as with ADONAI. JOHN 3:16, JOHN 3:30 is the antidote, elixir, antibody, cure, remedy, therapy, and treatment. ADONAI gives us the alternative, opportunity, and option to accept, or to reject. We need ADONAI active,and sovereignty in our lives. But we have the volition to turn it down, and walk away, but we must be mature to accept the consequences, not create feel good, narcissistic, hubristic, sententious opinions, and notions. 🙏✝️🔥🛐🤲. As for me I am a worker of iniquity, have transgress the law of ADONAI, trespass ADONAI sovereignty, but HE offers hope, grace, and reconciliation 🌬💨🗣👥👤. This is a wonderous thing for the repentant. 💔💓❤💗. Being a reprobate, and having a sered conscience is not pleasant or a joyful experience personally. ⛓😥😪😓😢😨😰😭🥺🤥🤕🤒🤢
I know that some of those Mike and Alisa are throwing stones at have tried to engage them in conversation regarding the “concerns” they raise, but apparently they, Mike and Alisa, aren’t interested in genuine dialog....they apparently prefer their echo chamber rants and subsequent accolades. Very disappointing and telling.
Yep I agree. They prefer to make God into a boogeyman or punitive and sadistic God and misrepresent those advocating for the restorative viewpoint and annihilation viewpoint which is disappointing. Very sad indeed. I am sure the verse in the bible that states to paraphrase each one will be judged according what they have done will be completely ignored or misinterpreted or they will gaslight us who advocate the restorative point of view. Sometimes you just have to leave people in their echo chambers
He said imagine if we live in a world with no protection. That's exactly what we have.
Gods protection is still here
Hmmmm, a world with no protection. Let me just step away from my highly advanced computer, walk down the stairs in my multiple floors house, make a nice cup of tea, and sit down on the couch to ponder how cruel and unprotected my existence is.
@@SimpleAmadeus To be fair that is luxury not protection apart from that it gives the same protection as a cave with a door your dry and warm and it will take a couple of seconds to get in. There is plenty of places in the world where people are suffering they can have exactly what you have doesn't stop people coming in and taking whatever they want including people.
If you only want to consider the western world then all it takes is for a couple of strangers to get together sign a paper and then they can assault your house the paper is a warrant and they do get it wrong wrong info wrong house and if you act wrong you will be assaulted as well so your safe/protected as long as the government decides or unless wrong doers want in most of the laws that "protect" people are post event so it is not so much protection more something was done feel better? All protection outside of God is a false sense of security.
@@hiddenrambo328 I agree that everything could fall apart in an instant, but that's actually my point. How could I have all these luxuries in a world with NO protection?
I agree that God is protecting us in all sorts of ways constantly. Without God, none of this luxury would even be possible. Really, that's what I think hell actually is. I think it's God ultimately taking His hands off the people that reject Him and leaving them to their own devices with no protection from Him any longer. Hell isn't some sort of sadistically designed torture chamber. Hell is a place that could be paradise, except it's filled with the worst people imaginable.
What I was trying to highlight is how silly it is of people to have this view of the world that everything is entirely terrible and therefore clearly there is no God, because they see some hand-picked terrible things on the television while sitting on their couch with a hot cup of coffee.
Our broken world is a complicated mix of godless human degeneracy and God's guidance. I believe it is to give us the opportunity to fully experience both the terrors of hell and the beauty of God in our first life, and then make a choice which of these things are more appealing to us. Which of these things we dedicate ourselves to.
You don't consider the things that are done in the Court's. We just had a coup by the judicial branch. My daughter was taken from me for no good reason.
Hey Mike thanks for sharing these videos. Someone once asked me this “do you think there’s any value in praying for Satan to repent?” Your thoughts?
Well we've seen the end, we know he won't... And it's never offered to him as far as we know...
A complete waste of time.
Makes me think when Jesus told peter get behind me Satan. Nothing is beyond God. He uses Satan. Even when he let him attack Job. Job grew in his faith over it
Satan's end...the lake of fire, has already been prophesied. (Revelation 20:10)
These videos are funny because the PCUSA church I grew up in taught us at least half of these heresies. I’ve since moved to PCA, and it’s infinitely better.
My intentions are genuine intentions and, the Supremacy clause is evident and in support of it.
I agree but I get confused about God telling us to be forgiving and show love but be angry about some things. I really like how u described it like a parent who loves but if u hurt their child u will see their wrath. I guess what I'm looking for is permission to be angry without fearing Gods wrath on me for being angry
I find the more familiar we are with scripture and how well we understand our own beliefs and can explain them helps cut down on the emotions that come with arguing.
Being angry with sin but not the sinner is a tricky one.... we must remember that once we were also without God’s truth at some point in our life and were likely just as bad... so looking at people as with affliction rather than as an enemy.. like doctors do not look at patients as their enemy but the illness.
5:09-5:13 Yes and no. It’s not punitive in the same way that a “human” judge is punitive, and it certainly is restorative, but you’re throwing out a decent amount of creation-based scriptures (Genesis 6-9) if you’re saying God can only be (progressively) restorative.
God's justice is BOTH punitive and Restorative
God's Mercy coincides with His Justice, His forgiveness with His Wrath. It was never an "Either-Or" scenario
It’s interesting how “ hell” can be used as a tool to “coerce” non-believers into believing. But this tool is used by other world religions to accomplish the exact same goal. I wonder why?
Another point: if hell is figurative and non-literal, then the same must apply to heaven. Same argument against those who would say hell is not eternal. The same language is used to describe eternal bliss.
If hell isn't real and eternal, then heaven can't be either.
There may be a hell, but I do not believe it is eternal.
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Matthew 25:46
The Greek word for eternal or never ending or everlasting in the New Testament is aion. This means a time period whose ending is unknown.
But the same word is used for both life and punishment. That's because the word aion changes depending on the word it is defining. A tall man in front of a tall mountain do not have the same height.
Is there punishment? Of course! We see it all the time in this life and God makes it clear there will be punishment in the age or ages to come. But it is not never ending. And it is restorative, not retributive. To believe in a God that punishes forever in terrible pain is nothing but sadistic.
Pure and simple, God is our father, and he is love.
At approx. 2:00
First, we are all God's children. It seems to me that saying some are God's children and some aren't, is like still being stuck back in Jesus's time when the Jewish leaders thought they were "in" and the "sinners" were "out".
2nd, a child molester most likely will suffer punishment, even without God's "wrath". I believe the wrath of God is man's perception of God.
3rd, what if it's your child doing the harming? Are you going to brutally torture him forever?
On the subject of being narcissistic or being "all about me" when it comes to God's restoration...
First of all, what's wrong with wanting yourself to be restored? You're part of God's creation also! Besides, God has all eternity!! What's the hurry?
Also, if you go to a church that believes everyone but you and other christians are going to hell, then you're thinking about yourself. Don't you care about your loved ones and your friends who don't believe as you do?
Who could be happy in heaven with loved ones suffering in hell?
This is exactly what Bible project teaches!!