Apples and Oranges. You can apply more force with a straight handle (mud, dirt, etc)to open the action but the bent one doesn't get caught on stuff. The usual rule was straight for infantry and bent for every body else including those on horses. As war became more modern the straight handle went away.
The moment arm of the bolt handle is the same for both, and on a Mosin it’s actually shorter. There is no difference in the amount of force you can apply.
The original reason was to keep the bolt from snagging on things. Note cavalry carbine versions of straight bolt rifles. Some bent bolt rifles are indeed more ergonomic though, perhaps almost to the point that they are faster enough to make a practical difference.
That was indeed the original reason. It did turn out that it was an ergonomic improvement as well, so no reason not to just do it for the infantry as well.
As a left handed shooter and old military bolt action collector I can say with confidence that for a lefty a straight bolt handle is easier to reach over and pull up over a bent bolt handle but either way you look at it I’m not particularly limited by the shape of handle I’m more held back by my left hand left eye dominance and my obsession with shooting classic military bolt guns that are all right handled without fail X’D
Soldiers were trained to operate the bolt with an open palm, slapping the bolt up, back, forward, down. That's why the bolt stick out and has a large, smooth knob. This results in less bolt jamming than when the bolt is grasped, and is fast.
I can assure that this is absolutely not how soldiers were trained to operate bolt action rifles, nor is it faster than grasping the bolt between forefinger and thumb. I encourage you to watch Bloke on the Range’s video on the subject.
Actually some armies from the 1890’s have such in their training manuals. The straight bolt is a throwback to the early needle fire and metallic cartridge guns that tended to bind up after only a few shots with black powder. This continued through WW1 despite the use of smokeless powder and more consistent ammunition was produced. The short vs long lever of the martini Henry was for the same reason. One short coming of RUclips is the perspective of the many “experts”, especially when it comes to surplus military rifles. What modern shooters think is not what ordinance boards thought 100 or 150 years ago. And printed training materials are hard to find from that era. Nevertheless they do exist and they do support the “palm the bolt” method.
Battlefield 1 has remarkably accurate bolt manipulation animations. I personally went and checked the era-correct manual for each bolt action rifle and they were accurate. Sadly, that legacy was pissed away in Battlefield V
If you were using a Lee Enfield 303 then you can cycle the bolt and fire without letting go of the bolt also as a short throw bolt you don't have to move your eye of the sights. that is why the fire rates were so high with the mad minute
your hand has to move the same distance, the bolt moves the same 90 degrees regardless of straight vs bent; straight is easier to acquire. Its called physics.
That's how most sniper rifles worked. Scope mounts are usually set over the receiver, so a straights handle wouldn't work. It's also why some guns make you single feed when scoped, there isn't enough room for the stripper clip. That being said, some weapons like the Mannlicher M1895 or Lee-Enfield have offset scopes, negating both issues (the Mannlicher uses en-bloc clips, so single feeding isn't possible without the clip, while the Enfield likely has it offset because the large capacity makes single feeding too lengthy). I wouldn't know if offset scopes have a notably difference or disadvantage though, maybe they're not as accurate or something?
@@nebiyuesayas5600Offset scopes are garbage, they'll shoot off to the left or to the right unless perfectly calibrated for distance. And bolt-action snipers shouldn't need to be stripper fed, unless they're not in the hands of a sniper - in which case it's a waste of a scope
I know straight handles were more common on most earlier rifles, and they're cheaper to manufacture since you have to essentially make a long straight handle and bend it, but this is still really informative. Tbh I think the straight handles look better, but then again I personally prefer straight pull anyways.
In regards to the portion of the video in concern with mechanical advantage differences between straight and turned bolt handles, straight handles provide a higher mechanical advantage due to their, although by not a tremendous margin, larger distance between bolt ball and bolt body, resulting in a slight difference between the two, similar to the slight difference between movement of the shooter hand to run the action haha. The real mechanical advantage of a straight bolt is the ability to “palm” it effectively, which essentially removes the strength limitation of your fingers for your bolt cycling, and you can throw the bolt extremely fast and hard due to this. A straight bolt handle also allows an easier application of force for a harsh extraction, simply due to its orientation. In any case, with a straight or bent bolt handle, rpm is not the goal as accurate fire is the real purpose of the firearm in the first place. You can always run the action faster than you can accurately shoot, and the bolt style isn’t a limitation for accurate fire. The real difference of which to have is if you want a receiver mounted scope, in which case you need a bent handle, or if you want no receiver mounted scope and an easier bolt to man-handle.
If your bolt is so sticky you *have* to palm the bolt to work it, something is wrong with your gun or ammo. The gun should have enough primary extraction force to break free a sticky case that that isn’t necessary.
Lengthy fights and really dirty environments aren't always permissive for even the most basic of cleaning. But that would be LOT of mud/sand and firing and letting it set for rust to form from corrosive ammunition for it to be a real issue. That said, my mosin must've been made right as the Germans were entering town because it has to be forced open and closed no matter what. @@sonatadusk3304
To me, straight bolt would always be a burden, blocking the line of sight every time you cycle, that would not be a problem with the bent one, besides distance of cycling with the hand
I have a Mosin Nagant 91/30 with a unusually smooth bolt. I have timed myself and found I can work the bolt faster than with my Kar98k. I also have a Japanese type 99 with a straight handle that I can also work very fast but I have not timed myself with that one. For me at least with my rifles I seem to work the straight handles faster although I think bent handles feel more smooth.
I just got a vz24, the red wood is so beautiful on them. I doubt one is just hands down better than another. Do you think straight handles cheaper to make? Maybe the straight handle is better with thick gloves
Bending a bolt handle is an extra step, but it's a simple one and confers nothing but advantages for the end user. There really is no reason to design a bolt action rifle with a straight handle aside from just apathy. Why the Soviets and Japanese kept straight handles on the M91/30 and Type 99 rifles I do not know.
Mosin carabine has straight handle not only because it's easier to operate in gloves, but because straight handler is easier and quicker to operate when you r in standing position or moving and shoot and reload from hip. (WWII soldiers in charge for example)
Its harder to get a gloved hand under a bent handle and it is harder to smack open a sticky bolt when you have poor ammo. A bent bolt puts your hand closer to the trigger at the end of the cycle so you can do a mad minute easier and is less likely to snag things or poke you in the back when marching.
Straight bolt action is not done with a the hand as shown, rather it has been known and shown open hand in the palm rotating on the ball of the handle...with a slap up and slap back and slap down...it is very fast. Try it.
I understand straight handles are great when you need to quickly loosen a stuck bolt by beating on it with something including the heel of your shoe. Thanks!
I just got my first one a month ago (a mossberg 590) and some snap-caps. I could spend hours just loading and unloading it trying to get as fast as possible.
@@sushiwithasword5089 I got my first rifle to take home not to long ago myself ( a 1917 Gewehr98 rifle )and I’ve been dry handling and loading/unloading dummy cartridges non stop just for the fun of it I totally understand the feeling
Apples and Oranges. You can apply more force with a straight handle (mud, dirt, etc)to open the action but the bent one doesn't get caught on stuff. The usual rule was straight for infantry and bent for every body else including those on horses. As war became more modern the straight handle went away.
The moment arm of the bolt handle is the same for both, and on a Mosin it’s actually shorter. There is no difference in the amount of force you can apply.
Bent works better in mild weather, but when your hands are nearly frozen, then that straight out bolt is a God send.
-20ºC and thick mittens. Bent bolt is not a good idea.
I agree, because the eastern front is freezing af
I guess that's why Russians prefered straight bolts on their Mosins
The original reason was to keep the bolt from snagging on things. Note cavalry carbine versions of straight bolt rifles. Some bent bolt rifles are indeed more ergonomic though, perhaps almost to the point that they are faster enough to make a practical difference.
That was indeed the original reason. It did turn out that it was an ergonomic improvement as well, so no reason not to just do it for the infantry as well.
As a left handed shooter and old military bolt action collector I can say with confidence that for a lefty a straight bolt handle is easier to reach over and pull up over a bent bolt handle but either way you look at it I’m not particularly limited by the shape of handle I’m more held back by my left hand left eye dominance and my obsession with shooting classic military bolt guns that are all right handled without fail X’D
I’m sorry to hear about your crippling disability. I hope they find a cure soon.
Maybe one day they’ll figure it out but for now the doc says it’s incurable =( pray for me
Soldiers were trained to operate the bolt with an open palm, slapping the bolt up, back, forward, down. That's why the bolt stick out and has a large, smooth knob. This results in less bolt jamming than when the bolt is grasped, and is fast.
I can assure that this is absolutely not how soldiers were trained to operate bolt action rifles, nor is it faster than grasping the bolt between forefinger and thumb. I encourage you to watch Bloke on the Range’s video on the subject.
Actually some armies from the 1890’s have such in their training manuals. The straight bolt is a throwback to the early needle fire and metallic cartridge guns that tended to bind up after only a few shots with black powder. This continued through WW1 despite the use of smokeless powder and more consistent ammunition was produced. The short vs long lever of the martini Henry was for the same reason.
One short coming of RUclips is the perspective of the many “experts”, especially when it comes to surplus military rifles. What modern shooters think is not what ordinance boards thought 100 or 150 years ago. And printed training materials are hard to find from that era. Nevertheless they do exist and they do support the “palm the bolt” method.
Yup...exactly...I just posted the same thoughts before I read yours
@@theophilhist6455 No truer test of intelligence than that of he who agrees with you.
Battlefield 1 has remarkably accurate bolt manipulation animations. I personally went and checked the era-correct manual for each bolt action rifle and they were accurate. Sadly, that legacy was pissed away in Battlefield V
If you were using a Lee Enfield 303 then you can cycle the bolt and fire without letting go of the bolt also as a short throw bolt you don't have to move your eye of the sights. that is why the fire rates were so high with the mad minute
your hand has to move the same distance, the bolt moves the same 90 degrees regardless of straight vs bent; straight is easier to acquire. Its called physics.
I generally agree. It's a good observation. I think there's much to be said for the 60° rotation of the Lee-Enfield, etc.
The Soviet PU Mosin Nagant Sniper used bent downwards bolt since the straight one couldn't work because of the scope.
That's how most sniper rifles worked. Scope mounts are usually set over the receiver, so a straights handle wouldn't work. It's also why some guns make you single feed when scoped, there isn't enough room for the stripper clip.
That being said, some weapons like the Mannlicher M1895 or Lee-Enfield have offset scopes, negating both issues (the Mannlicher uses en-bloc clips, so single feeding isn't possible without the clip, while the Enfield likely has it offset because the large capacity makes single feeding too lengthy). I wouldn't know if offset scopes have a notably difference or disadvantage though, maybe they're not as accurate or something?
@@nebiyuesayas5600Offset scopes are garbage, they'll shoot off to the left or to the right unless perfectly calibrated for distance.
And bolt-action snipers shouldn't need to be stripper fed, unless they're not in the hands of a sniper - in which case it's a waste of a scope
I know straight handles were more common on most earlier rifles, and they're cheaper to manufacture since you have to essentially make a long straight handle and bend it, but this is still really informative.
Tbh I think the straight handles look better, but then again I personally prefer straight pull anyways.
In regards to the portion of the video in concern with mechanical advantage differences between straight and turned bolt handles, straight handles provide a higher mechanical advantage due to their, although by not a tremendous margin, larger distance between bolt ball and bolt body, resulting in a slight difference between the two, similar to the slight difference between movement of the shooter hand to run the action haha. The real mechanical advantage of a straight bolt is the ability to “palm” it effectively, which essentially removes the strength limitation of your fingers for your bolt cycling, and you can throw the bolt extremely fast and hard due to this. A straight bolt handle also allows an easier application of force for a harsh extraction, simply due to its orientation. In any case, with a straight or bent bolt handle, rpm is not the goal as accurate fire is the real purpose of the firearm in the first place. You can always run the action faster than you can accurately shoot, and the bolt style isn’t a limitation for accurate fire. The real difference of which to have is if you want a receiver mounted scope, in which case you need a bent handle, or if you want no receiver mounted scope and an easier bolt to man-handle.
If your bolt is so sticky you *have* to palm the bolt to work it, something is wrong with your gun or ammo. The gun should have enough primary extraction force to break free a sticky case that that isn’t necessary.
Lengthy fights and really dirty environments aren't always permissive for even the most basic of cleaning. But that would be LOT of mud/sand and firing and letting it set for rust to form from corrosive ammunition for it to be a real issue. That said, my mosin must've been made right as the Germans were entering town because it has to be forced open and closed no matter what. @@sonatadusk3304
To me, straight bolt would always be a burden, blocking the line of sight every time you cycle, that would not be a problem with the bent one, besides distance of cycling with the hand
I have a Mosin Nagant 91/30 with a unusually smooth bolt. I have timed myself and found I can work the bolt faster than with my Kar98k. I also have a Japanese type 99 with a straight handle that I can also work very fast but I have not timed myself with that one. For me at least with my rifles I seem to work the straight handles faster although I think bent handles feel more smooth.
I just got a vz24, the red wood is so beautiful on them. I doubt one is just hands down better than another. Do you think straight handles cheaper to make?
Maybe the straight handle is better with thick gloves
Bending a bolt handle is an extra step, but it's a simple one and confers nothing but advantages for the end user. There really is no reason to design a bolt action rifle with a straight handle aside from just apathy. Why the Soviets and Japanese kept straight handles on the M91/30 and Type 99 rifles I do not know.
@@sonatadusk3304 I mean a straight bolt is easier to beat open or use with heavy winter gloves
Mosin carabine has straight handle not only because it's easier to operate in gloves, but because straight handler is easier and quicker to operate when you r in standing position or moving and shoot and reload from hip. (WWII soldiers in charge for example)
Its harder to get a gloved hand under a bent handle and it is harder to smack open a sticky bolt when you have poor ammo. A bent bolt puts your hand closer to the trigger at the end of the cycle so you can do a mad minute easier and is less likely to snag things or poke you in the back when marching.
Straight bolt action is not done with a the hand as shown, rather it has been known and shown open hand in the palm rotating on the ball of the handle...with a slap up and slap back and slap down...it is very fast. Try it.
It…isn’t. It really isn’t.
@@sonatadusk3304 Thus an opinion is such a thing I'm bound to honor. However, may I argue a winter gloved hand to further the discussion? :)
How much faster you think the bent bolt would be?
This is something I hope to test eventually.
@@sonatadusk3304 that would be very interesting :)
I understand straight handles are great when you need to quickly loosen a stuck bolt by beating on it with something including the heel of your shoe. Thanks!
Straight pull bolt action is where the speed is! And I think the major reason curved is better is really mostly cuz it just looks way better
I don't think you understand what straight pull bolt means
I gots a k31 bruv. I know what a strait pull is. I realize that there is no strait pull bolt in the video.
Straight pull gang
I Wish i had a gun, they seem so fun to just play around with (unloaded of course)
They’re better when they make noise.
Can confirm they are W A Y cool to muck around with and dry handle while unloaded =)
I just got my first one a month ago (a mossberg 590) and some snap-caps. I could spend hours just loading and unloading it trying to get as fast as possible.
@@sushiwithasword5089 I got my first rifle to take home not to long ago myself ( a 1917 Gewehr98 rifle )and I’ve been dry handling and loading/unloading dummy cartridges non stop just for the fun of it
I totally understand the feeling
I could do dry practice but my family yells at me for being loud.
Try the k31 straight pull. Even faster.
Always wondering about that. Lol
Wear socks