That was a very entertaining game, it’s always fun to watch the snake charmer try to scramble their way out of the hole when they become the demon without really wanting to
One thing that is dangerous once you are sure you are the lunatic, is to assume that the real demon will care about your pick at all. Stringing along the first nights sure, but if you are publicly (more or less) outed yourself as a known lunatic, listening to the lunatic is bad for the demon in my opinion.
@andrewnrbarnes pretty sure it is just that the Demon learns the Marionette but not vice versa. The Poppy Grower states Demons and Minions should learn each other so the jinx brings is back in line with the intent of the Marionette.
@@57thorns I think they mean after the poppygrower dies - the poppygrower's character text, without a jinx, would suggest the marionette, as a minion, should learn their team when the poppygrower dies. The jinx clarifies that the poppygrower's ability does not give the marionette any information. While the poppygrower is alive none of the evil team learn anything about one another regardless.
@@Sal-iw8zg I was confused because in this game, the demon and the harpy found eachother on a fake minion claim, but they still could not be sure that there was a minion?
On the final day, I think Karen could've claimed that Beardy HAD BEEN her host, making JC sober, which means she'd been snake charmed, then JC (new LLeech) chose a different host and killed Beardy, opening herself up as possible host. It would be very hard to do socially, but might bring extra confusion and make the joke complete. I know it's easy to say this from my chair, and I don't blame Karen for not seeing the opportunity at the end of THAT game...
I believe in that world she then turns into the good cannibal, because the cannibal's current ability swaps their roles, then has the power of the cannibal which is still on Aggie's snakecharmer, so does she get woken and asked to choose? She could spin that she chose JC right back, and therefore that she must be the host because she's poisoned. I think properly she just doesn't get to cannibal that night, but it's a fun line of thought
24:54 I like the idea of giving Noble here, but if Nicky discovered you did that, it basically confirms that he is the lunatic, because a storyteller would never do that to a real demon in night 2.
Spoiler: . . . . . . . . . I'm amazed, I've seen so many games where Nicky's logic is not completely correct and yet the he's on the money because I don't believe Karen follow any of his kills at any moment, she just believe that George was the best kill that night and acted on it.
I might be wrong, but... At the very end of the game, could Karen have proposed the world where JC had become the leech by claiming that the leech host was actually Beardy, and that JC wasn't puzzle-drunk at all? And then she could say to vote for herself or Nicky. After all, if Beardy was poisoned AND picked the incorrect player, Jams would likely have given him the demon. Of course, the good team probably wouldn't have bought it, but it was worth a shot.
i was really hoping to see Karen attempt a bluff! even if it wasn't convincing, she could've eaten up a lot of Town's day, perhaps preventing them from logic-ing their way to why they were certain JC was the correct kill
So with Karen's bluff of choosing herself as a nightwatchman. I'm fairly sure Aggie was wrong how it would work. In my opinion a droisoned/marionette nightwatchman picking themselves does not learn they were picked. My reason for this is that the nightwatchman should go to sleep after their choice, then the choice wakes up. Since there is no functioning ability, the ST cannot/shouldn't wake up the choice (even if it's the nightwatchman themselves).
...though I'd have to make sure people could be aware of that rules interaction, particularly since it might mean the evil team's down a member... this way makes the most sense to me rules-as-written, but I'd probably add "when the poppy grower dies, the demon learns who the marionette is that night even if they are dead" to their jinx (Edit: it's already part of the jinx. I checked.)
Lunatic isn't actually a Demon so the ST can give them minions whenever to simulate a Poppy Grower, or even simulate things like a Magician or Lunatic²
@@KrazyCouch2 You can give them minions or choose not to, but in most scripts you really shouldn't give them a lunatic. It would mean the ST makes up lunatic picks, so effectively the ST could control kills in a game where they shouldn't. In leviathan games: Sure, go for it.
I would say no because that would mean lying about someone's alignment and pretty sure only the marionette and the Lunatic have rules allowing them to not know their alignment.
It's not a terrible terrible idea. Keep in mind that Marionette is going to think they're a townsfolk, but the iffy part is that they don't know they're a minion and also don't get info so they can't prove or realize that they're a Marionette. That said usual Poppygrower things apply so they're going to want to fight like hell to live.
Thanks for the upload, out of curiosity, has the pandemonium institute ever considered changing the snake charmer from a townsfolk token to an outsider? the role really doesn't play as 100% good.
It’s a Good ability, and when used, it’s helpful for the town! Unfortunately, it’s not very helpful for the Snake Charmer, but the role does help out Town when used, as opposed to most Outsiders!
You are misunderstanding what outsiders are supposed to be. They are supposed to be harmful to the good team. If the snake charmer hits the demon, that is GREAT for the good team (but not for the new demon since they are now evil). If the snake charmer doesn't hit the demon, then they have cleared some people as not being the demon. BOTH of those cases are good for the good team! So snake charmer is absolutely a townsfolk, and I would say a pretty powerful one at that.
I would actually disagree, outsiders typically present negative consequences for the good team as a whole, whereas the snake charmer is in almost every case beneficial for the good team even if it is not necessarily always better for the individual player who is the snake charmer. A snake charmer who never becomes the demon has very good and reliable information about who is not the demon, which is great information for good especially coming into late game votes. Conversely, a former demon who is now a snake charmer has very good and reliable information about who the minions are, which is also great information for good. As for the ex snake charmer, ultimately they're an evil player now, one at a severe disadvantage playing against a particularly omniscient good player, so it can't be considered that what they now choose to do as the demon can be construed in any way as a good player hindering good.
Snake Charmer is an extremely powerful Townsfolk. You get to confirm that someone isn't the Demon every single night. It becomes even more powerful if you accidentally become the Demon because then the evil team gets massively weakened. Remember, Townsfolk are supposed to help the good team. That doesn't necessarily include the player who is playing as the Townsfolk. - Ben
It's kinda interesting that the choice not going through would confirm Sabenite as the gambler since it's the only character that causes death before the demon/godfather
@CerealSSBU That is an interesting interaction, but Sabenite was solidly confirmed anyway. There were 2 deaths, which could only have happened if they or Ellen was the Gambler, or a Harpy or Godfather kill. But Ellen didn't claim Gambler, nobody claimed to be harpy-mad about Sabenite day 1, and whoever it was that got executed day 1 didn't claim to be an outsider. So... functionally hard confirmed.
Jams chose to give JC the Pixie's ability, not the Noble's. The Pixie learns of an in-play Townsfolk. Since JC was drunk that night, Jams could tell him anything (including faking that Malaki was a different character, to make him look suspicious) but instead decided to show him Nicky's bluff, Noble.
44:13 JC correctly picks the lleech host.
"I nominate Beardy" "Why?" "Aggie's in the game"
I can't believe she picked me!
@@BeardyTASI think you can, Beardy, be honest!
@@BeardyTASfor the content!!! ✊
@@Miraxik haha, very fair
"What is a cow but a very involved dinosaur?" If there's a Clocktower out of context list, this belongs.
she said "evolved" not "involved"... makes a big difference.
@@m.h.6470a great quote regardless 👌
That was a very entertaining game, it’s always fun to watch the snake charmer try to scramble their way out of the hole when they become the demon without really wanting to
One thing that is dangerous once you are sure you are the lunatic, is to assume that the real demon will care about your pick at all. Stringing along the first nights sure, but if you are publicly (more or less) outed yourself as a known lunatic, listening to the lunatic is bad for the demon in my opinion.
Major spoiler but the ending state was just hilarious:
The only living player left was the lunatic, that started out seeing a demon token.
Spoiler:
Solo demon win.
Pretty sure the poppygrower marionette interaction is the jynx for anyone watching the video and wondering
Please explain
@andrewnrbarnes pretty sure it is just that the Demon learns the Marionette but not vice versa. The Poppy Grower states Demons and Minions should learn each other so the jinx brings is back in line with the intent of the Marionette.
I read the jynx ruling and I am still not certain that the demon should even know that there is a martionette in play.
@@57thorns I think they mean after the poppygrower dies - the poppygrower's character text, without a jinx, would suggest the marionette, as a minion, should learn their team when the poppygrower dies. The jinx clarifies that the poppygrower's ability does not give the marionette any information. While the poppygrower is alive none of the evil team learn anything about one another regardless.
@@Sal-iw8zg I was confused because in this game, the demon and the harpy found eachother on a fake minion claim, but they still could not be sure that there was a minion?
Watching Alex in this game was a delight . He seems to be enjoying the game.
What a fun game
Guessing the puzzle drunk while the drunkenness never came into paly it pretty neat
It helped solve the game at the end, with a possible cannibal snake charming :D
On the final day, I think Karen could've claimed that Beardy HAD BEEN her host, making JC sober, which means she'd been snake charmed, then JC (new LLeech) chose a different host and killed Beardy, opening herself up as possible host. It would be very hard to do socially, but might bring extra confusion and make the joke complete.
I know it's easy to say this from my chair, and I don't blame Karen for not seeing the opportunity at the end of THAT game...
I believe in that world she then turns into the good cannibal, because the cannibal's current ability swaps their roles, then has the power of the cannibal which is still on Aggie's snakecharmer, so does she get woken and asked to choose? She could spin that she chose JC right back, and therefore that she must be the host because she's poisoned. I think properly she just doesn't get to cannibal that night, but it's a fun line of thought
24:54 I like the idea of giving Noble here, but if Nicky discovered you did that, it basically confirms that he is the lunatic, because a storyteller would never do that to a real demon in night 2.
Spoiler:
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I'm amazed, I've seen so many games where Nicky's logic is not completely correct and yet the he's on the money because I don't believe Karen follow any of his kills at any moment, she just believe that George was the best kill that night and acted on it.
Finally learning Latin is useful!
I might be wrong, but...
At the very end of the game, could Karen have proposed the world where JC had become the leech by claiming that the leech host was actually Beardy, and that JC wasn't puzzle-drunk at all? And then she could say to vote for herself or Nicky.
After all, if Beardy was poisoned AND picked the incorrect player, Jams would likely have given him the demon.
Of course, the good team probably wouldn't have bought it, but it was worth a shot.
i was really hoping to see Karen attempt a bluff! even if it wasn't convincing, she could've eaten up a lot of Town's day, perhaps preventing them from logic-ing their way to why they were certain JC was the correct kill
the only possible drunk then would be the innkeeper lol
No one has ever lied in this game, until Karen. Shame on you, Karen!
So with Karen's bluff of choosing herself as a nightwatchman. I'm fairly sure Aggie was wrong how it would work.
In my opinion a droisoned/marionette nightwatchman picking themselves does not learn they were picked.
My reason for this is that the nightwatchman should go to sleep after their choice, then the choice wakes up. Since there is no functioning ability, the ST cannot/shouldn't wake up the choice (even if it's the nightwatchman themselves).
Love it! What a great game.
For Nicky's question at the start of the game, I'd run it that they learn the Mario as a _minion_ but not specifically the Mario
...though I'd have to make sure people could be aware of that rules interaction, particularly since it might mean the evil team's down a member... this way makes the most sense to me rules-as-written, but I'd probably add "when the poppy grower dies, the demon learns who the marionette is that night even if they are dead" to their jinx
(Edit: it's already part of the jinx. I checked.)
Really great game! How do I get access to the recording of the Edinburgh show??
That’s some elite level playing (and storytelling)
Jams, did you forget to give Nicky his “minions”?
The lunatic doesn't necessarily learn minions in Poppy Grower scripts.
Lunatic isn't actually a Demon so the ST can give them minions whenever to simulate a Poppy Grower, or even simulate things like a Magician or Lunatic²
@@KrazyCouch2 You can give them minions or choose not to, but in most scripts you really shouldn't give them a lunatic. It would mean the ST makes up lunatic picks, so effectively the ST could control kills in a game where they shouldn't. In leviathan games: Sure, go for it.
Is the story teller allowed to pretend to a droisoned cannibal that the snake charming was successful?
I would say no because that would mean lying about someone's alignment and pretty sure only the marionette and the Lunatic have rules allowing them to not know their alignment.
No. Unless your ability states otherwise, you always know what team you're on. - Ben
bluffs block the cannibal player's name
oh that's jc
Marionette poppygrower anyone? Why is that a horrible idea?
It's not a terrible terrible idea. Keep in mind that Marionette is going to think they're a townsfolk, but the iffy part is that they don't know they're a minion and also don't get info so they can't prove or realize that they're a Marionette. That said usual Poppygrower things apply so they're going to want to fight like hell to live.
There's a game like that on the channel somewhere, don't remember the title, but it wa No Dashi, Mez and Mario on the evil team.
Thanks for the upload, out of curiosity, has the pandemonium institute ever considered changing the snake charmer from a townsfolk token to an outsider? the role really doesn't play as 100% good.
It’s a Good ability, and when used, it’s helpful for the town! Unfortunately, it’s not very helpful for the Snake Charmer, but the role does help out Town when used, as opposed to most Outsiders!
You are misunderstanding what outsiders are supposed to be. They are supposed to be harmful to the good team. If the snake charmer hits the demon, that is GREAT for the good team (but not for the new demon since they are now evil). If the snake charmer doesn't hit the demon, then they have cleared some people as not being the demon. BOTH of those cases are good for the good team! So snake charmer is absolutely a townsfolk, and I would say a pretty powerful one at that.
I would actually disagree, outsiders typically present negative consequences for the good team as a whole, whereas the snake charmer is in almost every case beneficial for the good team even if it is not necessarily always better for the individual player who is the snake charmer. A snake charmer who never becomes the demon has very good and reliable information about who is not the demon, which is great information for good especially coming into late game votes. Conversely, a former demon who is now a snake charmer has very good and reliable information about who the minions are, which is also great information for good. As for the ex snake charmer, ultimately they're an evil player now, one at a severe disadvantage playing against a particularly omniscient good player, so it can't be considered that what they now choose to do as the demon can be construed in any way as a good player hindering good.
A Snake Charmer in the bag is good for town, and in specific conditions, bad for the Snake Charmer who drew the token out of the bag.
Snake Charmer is an extremely powerful Townsfolk. You get to confirm that someone isn't the Demon every single night. It becomes even more powerful if you accidentally become the Demon because then the evil team gets massively weakened.
Remember, Townsfolk are supposed to help the good team. That doesn't necessarily include the player who is playing as the Townsfolk.
- Ben
25:30 oops invalid snake charm choice - sabenite's dead :P
It's kinda interesting that the choice not going through would confirm Sabenite as the gambler since it's the only character that causes death before the demon/godfather
Actually just realized a harpy madness break could cause an early night death
@CerealSSBU That is an interesting interaction, but Sabenite was solidly confirmed anyway. There were 2 deaths, which could only have happened if they or Ellen was the Gambler, or a Harpy or Godfather kill. But Ellen didn't claim Gambler, nobody claimed to be harpy-mad about Sabenite day 1, and whoever it was that got executed day 1 didn't claim to be an outsider. So... functionally hard confirmed.
26:09 aww alex that is not a real dinosaur that was something they made up for jurassic park
33:50 shouldn't you have just given JC three names instead of telling him Noble?
Jams chose to give JC the Pixie's ability, not the Noble's. The Pixie learns of an in-play Townsfolk. Since JC was drunk that night, Jams could tell him anything (including faking that Malaki was a different character, to make him look suspicious) but instead decided to show him Nicky's bluff, Noble.