Condo Collapse: Water Found Under Roof Layers (Saturated)
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- Опубликовано: 17 дек 2021
- In this video, we show you the results of what roofing inspectors found on the Champlain Towers South condominium roof in Surfside, FL one year before the condo collapsed. We also show you what the proposed corrective action was, and analyze if the roof failures were a contributing factor in the Miami Condo Collapse. You will see how they discovered that water had penetrated all the roofing layers and membranes and saturated the roofing materials.
Maud's Condo collapse Timeline Spreadsheet: CTS Collapse Witness Statements
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The Champlain Towers South condo complex collapse was located at 8777 Collins Ave. in Surfside, FL, which is just north of Miami beach.
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The roof just tells you a story about poor and / or overdue maintenance in areas which are "out of sight, out of mind". It seems to me that it had been allowed to deteriorate far beyond the point where it should have been repaired or replaced. It's symptomatic of inadequate maintenance of the building as a whole.
I still don't see anything to reasonably conclude that some sort of catastrophic failure at roof level triggered the main collapse sequence. Pool deck and the KLM 9.1 / 11.1 columns (and complex beam arrangement) are still the smoking gun for me. Pool deck first, then the 9.1 / 11.1 stuff, then the tower.
Yes same for me
Given all the leaks in the halls and apartments below that particular section of roof, it does seem likely that the water may have been working its way down and weakened the entire structure above the garage as well. But the "smoking gun" is still the problems with water at the pool deck and garage levels - there was more than enough water problems down there to cause the collapse even without the roof leaking as well.
But it definitely shows the attitude towards maintenance and repair that they had - whomever was in charge of that at CTS.
A fact that wasn't well publicized is that a woman living on the 12th floor was woken up in the early hours the day before the collapse by a loud creaking noise. Nobody else reported hearing this noise on lower floors, suggesting the source was closest to her. The noise to so loud and disturbing that she told her son couldn't fall back asleep. The day of the collapse, they were mounting anchors on the roof and load testing them. There were tons of additional load on top of the building for the roofing job. The parapet was likely inadequately anchored. Very few people have looked more closely at the role the roof may have played.
A poorly anchored parapet falling off the roof and landing on the pool deck would have been a massive event, triggering a cascade failure.
What a strange focus! We had hundreds of thousands of "bad maintenance" buildings in Europe around the 1960s to 1980s, often "overdue" by decades or even centuries. But they would never ever collapse. Because they were built in a normal way, like a house, not like some kind of experiment.
I just did a quick google search & Europe has experienced many collapsed buildings over the last century
.
Your videos are the best Jeff. I am not an engineer, but I find this analysis fascinating. I watch some other channels here too on the condo collapse, but nobody else, in my opinion, explains things clearer than you do. Thank you!
Wow, thanks!
Thank you for continuing to dive into this incident and cover it. This tragedy has captivated me since it first happened. Very informative video and easy to follow and understand for those of us whom aren’t knowledgeable in building codes or construction.
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it!
Jeff, one other thing I didn't hear you say was the effect of water laying on a roof with relationship to the sun. Water sets up a prism effect that emits ultra-violet rays when the sun hits it. This substantially degrades the roof over time at an accelerated rate. There is a lot of research on this subject. Proper roof drainage is essential to prevent this effect. Many building owners will eventually install a liquid epoxy roof coating that hardens into a protective layer when drainage is an issue. I saw no signs of it on this flat roof. What a shame.
If you look at photos and drone videos from above the condominium after the collapse, you can see on the part of the building that was still standing they had already rolled on a whole bunch of liquid tar in certain areas their plan was to patch up certain areas that that were not as moist as the area of roof number two that needed to be replaced in its entirety.
A properly designed, long lasting roof (like epoxy or rubber membrane) costs more than the traditional tar and gravel system they had and were replacing. And if one thing we've learned is that CTS condo management was cheap and neglegent.
Champlain tower east has a beautiful clean roof. Champlain north roof looks just as bad as the one that collapsed. If I lived in North, I’d be getting out!
It collapsed from the bottom, not the top.
think about the excellent deal you could get tho, it would be a STEAL.
@@jeffreyanderson1851 ok so when it rains on the roof the water or whatever it doesn’t go to the bottom at all?
@@randomexploring541 rainwater is supposed to slope towards a drain which will carry it down to a storm sewer. Otherwise it just sits there until it evaporates, or soaks the roof until it finds a way to seep through the concrete slab and makes a leak into a top floor corridor or apartments. Any concrete or rebar deterioration would be found on the top floor roof deck, not on the support columns and slabs in the parking garage.
WATER is heavy & perhaps that put excessive weight on the roof & columns (which eventually lead down to the weakened pool deck columns).
This has been fascinating to watch from start to finish. Feels like I’ve had college level 101 to 401 courses in engineering. My condo is near 52nd & Collins so I do have a dog in the fight. We have a huge pool deck with garage parking below that surrounds the pool foundation walls on all sides. The garage ceiling that supports the pool deck with concrete columns and beams is impressive construction. But (BIG but), there are areas of H2O intrusion and spalling. There’s an interesting new trend-insurance used to be concerned with storm damage, hurricanes, flooding and fire. NOW, they are in a sweat about buildings falling down. Who would have “thunk” it!?? These CTS studies are edifying…to say the least.
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it Gina!
Hey Gina, I'm just up the road in Broward (LBTS), always interested in "condo commando" HOA politics... in your building, what is the approx. ratio of owners vs renters, and working peeps vs retired? Those seem to be the 2 biggest factors in what gets done, and what gets "deferred"...
GOODBYE CONDO is what I’d be saying. My life is more important than an ocean view, so I’d move to a small house on the mainland. (Plus we have cars… an ocean view is just a short drive.) You can still see the ocean anytime you desire
Appreciate the updates.
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it!
Thanks a lot Jeff and another excellent video!
Glad you enjoyed it
Another superb and interesting analysis Jeff. Thank you!
My pleasure!
You commented on the filthy look of the roof. I realize that a filthy look doesn’t always mean a problem, but it’s interesting to note that Google Earth shows that Champlain Towers North has the same filthy look.
Thank you for another informative video.
Yes interesting to see what problems that building has
Which is probably why the roof in itself didn't cause the collapse though it may well have contributed to a degree. The building was suffering water penetration from both the top and the bottom. Sadly something had to give....the North building may well have water damage to the roof too, though it doesn't appear to have the same issue with excessive water penetrating the foundation, pillars, etc.
Superb discussion. Thanks!!!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Nice video Jeff 👏🏼
Thanks 👍 Cesar
Great update!
Glad you think so!
Wow. I love watch your analysis.
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it!
Ty 4 the update I been following this story from the start I watch your videos on this and Josh Potter
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it!
Brilliant work keep it up
Thank you so much 😀
I’ve worked on a bunch of south Florida building flat roofs and the drains always end up as the highest points. They are put on top of columns to allow for the pipe to be hidden and thus don’t sink with the rest of the roof.
that is a strange way to design it
I've seen that same phenomena on every old flat roof I've been on.
Jeff, I think we can rename this building Conundrum Tower. There are so many mysteries that you have explained very well. Merry Christmas to you and your family!
Thanks, you too Gale, and thanks for watching
Hello friend thank you so much for the update 👍
No problem 👍
Merry Christmas to you and yours xx
Same to you Jenny, and thanks!
Wow. This building was a mess. The rebar, straying from the plans, from the pool deck, mystery columns, and now basically the roof was also a ticking time bomb. It's horrible how it looked unassuming until it took tje lives of almost 100 people in minutes ( that was years building up to under the pretty disguise of a seaside condo. Kinda goes to the old saying..... Polish a turd, it's still a turd....but a shiny one.
I hope all condos take cues and make sure they are strong and sturdy.
Yes they should have all condo building managers follow all the results from this collapse
@@jeffostroff I think they should change inspections from 40 years to 20 or so. Some of those building may have small things that will add up... Hopefully not like this did. So many people... Those kids and babies.... That just gets me. Ive had to bury a child and you NEVER recover. You keep living but part of you is forever changed.
I swear to God that you should be a nist investigator with how thorough you are
that eliminates the fact that the roof didn't collapse. excellent information.
I would like you to address the water underneath the concrete in the basement. where did it come from & are other condos experiencing the same things?
I'm following this from Calgary Alberta Canada until I get an answer because I'm very curious.
Good ideas Gary!
Wow, even more information. Good work Jeff!
Those roofs really look terrible. Water will find a way through whatever there is, eventually.
I like seeing those results of those cores. Damn, looks bad.
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it!
another great video Jeff, lots of water at work, those areas like stairwells and utility shafts go from floor to roof in a condo, so any water getting in would run straight down to the parking garage, what a damn mess that place is turning out to be
yes the more we unravel the layers of an onion this is a real Pandora's box
@@jeffostroff appreciate you slicing it up man, youve shared a lot of time and research
I'm keep wondering if the penthouse units under the pooling roof water had ceiling leaks/mould issues.
@@sandyhammond GREAT question. Being (by far) the most expensive unit in the bldg. (and therefore paying the highest HOA Fees), you'd think the TRIPLE-SIZE Penthouse would be the first to complain about such things. Not sure all those "in-house" complaints were copied to Town of Surfside, unless it got to the point of lawsuits and/or code violations. The PH had a LOT of other peoples' HVAC condenser units vibrating around on its roof, and therefore the electrical wiring and copper plumbing for all those AC units would also be penetrating the PH roof slab . The PH had a lot of jury-rigged after-thought aspects to its construction... it was a symbol for all the corruption surrounding this tower.
Another great and informative video. Thanks. In the photos, the ocean facing part of roof 1 is absolutely flooded with water. 😮
I thnk they should have replaced the whole roof
What a wet mess! I’m allergic to mold. I don’t think I would have been able to live in that building. Once again, Jeff, thank you this interesting analysis. A wonderful Christmas to you and your family!
Thanks again Maria, and Merry Christmas!
In the UK most social housing has mild my daughter has mould and two young children with chronic asthma this is the norm here
@@jennywilkinson7445 That is because here in the UK, the housing stock used for social housing is old, with no new housing being built for social rent. And our climate is damp... so without good insulation and warmth, houses grow mould.
@@jennywilkinson7445 Unfortunately we have too many of that same problem here with rental apartments, and I wish the government would do more to make these companies fixed that because it's only damaging the building as well as hurting me inhabitants
Don’t move to Florida if you react to mold. It’s always damp and hot here.
Very interesting information.
Glad you enjoyed it
Very good video, more news
More to come!
I'd be interested in reports or survivors living on the top floor with ceiling water leakage issues
Yes, I would love to talk to some of them about that too!
Hi Jeff I subscribed your video, been following you every since condo collapse, water buildup on the roof did water go thru the roof and down in interior walls that might add more weight on the building and same way the pool deck also the lady mention that the building was not safe and molds that really bad situation there, the building should have been condemned in the first place before it collapsed.
Yes I can't help but think that if they had started this 40 year recertification plan back in 2018 when the engineer first warned them about the damage to the concrete, maybe the collapse would not have happened
Hard to believe the additional cost of putting a mere 1/4" per foot slope on "modern" roofs--at construction time--isn't repaid in spades with all the repairs you do NOT have to do down the road... smh.
Some roofers are lazy. Or...they rebuild it back up the same way they saw it built when they tear down the old roof
@@jeffostroff NO, I'm talking about putting *the concrete slab itself* on a slope, and just have scuppers/gutters on the downslope edge. That way, future roofers really can't screw it up, just do their usual thing, but still not enough slope to pose a safe-footing issue. GOT to get the water off the roof within minutes of the rain stopping. Perfectly flat roofs are stoo-pid-ity brought to us by artsy architects.
We just had a roof put on our building in Hallandale Beach, FL. We are a few miles north of Surfside. Our contractor recommended we have additional scuppers put in the parapet to help drain any future water. It looks like it will finally be thinking safety first in roof systems in Florida.
That is good news for your roof Russell!
I think that I made a comment about major roof problems on the Champlain towers roof when I saw the arial views!, I remember this same thing on an apartment building that I did maintenance on years ago!, I kept telling management that the roof needed to be replaced, but only patched it. Then, when the roof was leaking badly during a storm, they finally had a roofing company come in and replace the roof, but they didn't do a good job, and it failed in the next rainstorm, causing the apartment to be flooded, with the ceilings collapsing and other water damage, company's insurance had to pay for the complete restoration of the apartment!! I still believe that water had penetrated into the structural elements of the building! Great video, thanks 😊
Yes these stories are likely repeated in numerous apartment buildings around the state
That's crazy how much evidence and contributing factors you found, like all the complaints! That's not acceptable and accountability needs to be taken for such negligence!
Lots of family members are suing anybody and everybody
I was in a car accident years ago and the other parties insurance was Liberty...as i recall fault was theirs as I believe they got tickets for stuff. It took over a year to settle with Liberty...Im glad I had then and still a good attorney who knows the ins and outs of these things.
As for CTS...that roof was a wet mess long overdue for replacing.
I just hope the victims and the families of those who perished in this mess are properly and fairly compensated.
yes, me too!
I had my roofing contractor up there at the same time as the agent. He could point out all the damage. I got the new roof.
That's how Liberty Mutual scammed me. I told them no one goes on the roof without me being there. We had an appointment time in the roofer never showed up. I found out later when I saw the photos that they took of my roof that he actually showed up the day before our appointment and went up there without me even knowing about it and I could tell which day he was there because our garbage cans were out and they were in the photos up by the street. so by going up on the roof when I wasn't there, allowed them to say anything they wanted about the condition of the roof.
@@jeffostroff wow!
There's a small side-by-side condo development near me. I walk by it all the time. There's a retaining wall, as the sidewalk descends quite far below the entrances, the further you walk down the street. The last unit had damage to the wall several years ago, and I asked the occupant (owner? renter?) about it. He told me the condo association wouldn't pay for repairs, and left it to him. He couldn't afford it, and evidently moved out. By then, the damage affected two units, and on, and on. This past summer, there was a sign to use the rear entrances only, as the wall was completely down. I watched it being reconstructed, and complimented the workers, as each stone locks onto the stone below it. My husband had put in a wall like that, and it's still great 16 years later. Too bad the original builder hadn't done that. My husband was Italian, and drilled into me the notion that a retaining wall should always tilt back. Fifty years to come to perpendicular, and another 50 years to collapse.
This is where your logic is incorrect you cannot suction out the other P trap because they feed together in a Wye formation period now there are other scenarios that it might be able to suction it out but that's why we feed it in as a Wye instead of a T shape
How long would it take for the roof concert slab to dry out ? Would the new roof materials added before or after the roof dried out?
I would think a few days would dry it out. I hope they would wait a few days before applying the new layers on top
What happens when they go to replace these types of roofs? Do the people on the top floor move out while repairs are on going? How does the value of these condos get effected in other older buildings? Are these other buildings reacting to the collapse of this one? Thanks for your series of videos.
Tim, the people stay in the building, they don't remove the concrete slab which is the ceiling of the top floor. They scrape off all the tar and aggregate, then shovel up all under layers, than start all over laying down all the layers of materials they need. Once you have a new roof on, it makes it easier to sell your unit. Even though I complained about assessments of $5k to do my roofs in other condos, once you do it this because an easy selling point for your condo to tell the new owner they won't have to worry about a new roof for 25 years.
The only nasty part to live through, as a resident, is the STENCH of the hot-mop tar step, but a GOOD roofer is going to get that done in 1 day, 2 at the most.
@@MajorCaliber Thanks for the input. Repairs of any kind is not always easy to live through, but it necessary.
I was also wondering that. It seemed a bit extreme to me that one would replace an entire roof just because it leaks. The language is a bit odd though when one says 'replacing the roof' but means replacing what is on top of the actual roof.
So it is actually the waterproofing and insulation that is replaced, not the actual roof, am I understanding right now?
@@listerdave1240 Yes, NOT the "beefy" or structural part of the roof (which in this case would be a 6"-8"/300mm-400mm thick concrete slab) but the "built-up" layers that provide *slope-towards-drains,* waterproofing, and some sound insulation against rain, hail, etc. So on a high-rise like this, the parts that get replaced actually weigh very little, per sq. ft... it's just a lot of *hard labor* ... in the hot Florida sun... with frequent danger from lightning strikes... and getting dizzy from the tar fumes and falling off the edge... =:O
Interesting! First thing I learned in my apprenticeship: Whatever you measure might be garbage so have redundancy and if it is crucial have so peer!
Well said!
Jeff -- I'm sure you've seen the "House of Cards" presentation that the Miami Herald posted on their website at the end of 2021, with input from a consulting engineer from the Univ. of Washington. It might be interesting for you to do a "walk-through" video of it (with due credit and respect for their copyrighted work, of course). I'm particularly interested in your take on their discussion of the role of the pool deck's perimeter wall serving as a "clamp" that helped hold things together for 40 years, until the connections between deck and perimeter wall finally failed. They seem to view that as the likely first failure point, although their subsequent analysis pretty much matches up with yours.
yes I have, they notified me the day they published it, and already planning it
It's odd to me as a non-engineer why the pool deck isn't considered a roof. It covers a structure and is intended to prevent water intrusion.
Interesting point. But we don't put tar on the pool deck
@@jeffostroff You would use a waterproofing product over the concrete, before the tiles/pavers are laid. And our local building code (i'm in New Zealand) would consider the pool deck to be a roof, just like a balcony that has living space below.
@@mark77193 Any sane person would waterproof the pool deck - unless they worked as CTS condo management...
What is the standard technique for putting a slight slope on a flat roof? I owned a building with flat roofs. One of them had a slight slope and one of them had no intentional slope. The difference was night and day. The one with the slight slope was still doing a pretty good job of preventing leaks. The no slope section was puddling and had many leaks.
It is surprising to me that no-slope roofs continue to be built.
Interesting stuff. I think that when that company took samples on the pool deck, that big square section that was coned off but never repaired was what finished it off. The problems with the planters and the columns/ceiling underneath were bad and opening that section above just escalated the problem. I'm surprised with the lawsuits coming out that the focus was not on that company?
Yes, since I pointed that out in July on a previous video, I thought they would be all over it.
Something I took away from this is the water pooling on the roof 2 section, which was pooling up despite there being a drain right there. The only way I can see this happening is if the slope wasn't adequate....it's such a small section of roof! Is it possible this is an indication that the foundation was already starting to sink/crumble on the right (east) side of roof 2, so the pitch was now sloping water to the edge instead of the drain?
No, we see this problem all over here in FL. Builders, and then roofers don't seem know anything about pitched roofs, and when they tear down a multilayer roof to build a new one, they fail to slop it back tot he drain.
@@jeffostroff I live in NY...with snow and freezing water, it's a whole different animal! You should see the extent of spalling here on everything...buildings, roads, bridges, etc. It would probably frighten you. I wonder if they use more rebar and concrete to account for that here?
So was there so much standing water due to the roof being old? Had the rood ever been replaced in the last 40 years?
They likely replaced it once or twice in that time frame. But if you fail to slope those membrane layers toward the drain water will pool. It likely pooled since their last re-roof
I find it incredible that there was not some kind of sheer joint between the pool deck and the main building. It is crazy that a pool deck collapsing can pull the whole building with it. If there had been some kind of sheer joint between the pool deck and the main structure then surely the building would have remained standing after the pool deck had gone down? (Assuming of course that it was the pool deck that went down first).
It seems this building was saturated from top to bottom. Little wonder it's structure deteriorated so badly.
Yes and look at all roofs around it, this is the only one dirty like this
Thank you for the video and I did not get a Notification again
Oh no! I am getting miffed at RUclips
@@jeffostroff These people, RUclips. Man. So messed up.
@@jeffostroff same here
Think about the weight of all of that water...plus the added on penthouse, the upgrades to fixed things like cabinets and bathrooms....
Yes that is what we pointed out in a few videos in July and August
Interesting video. One small point- you refer to the roof being divided up into areas of "ten square feet"- I assume you mean ten feet square, or 100 square feet.
10x10
I wouldn't doubt that the weather had something to do with this buildings collaspe. I remember the week it collapsed. It was raining non stop where i was living. That building was probably already so deteriorated to begin with just a little extra rain then normal would cause a collapse . The added water in the planter and on top of the pool deck was too much for it to take.
How did I miss this video?
At least you saw it now!
Thank you for not putting the background music in this video
But music can be awesome!
So what does this video have to do with the new Dewalt Atomic impact wrench?
Not sure.
Just a note: the fforida replacement law as you show in the video does not say a roof must be replaced at the 25% but rather that if it is replaced it must be the entire roof. That is far different from what you appeared to present. As a retired engineer I find that there are too many wanna be engineers. While your and other's data is interesting we need to await the final investigation where actual licensed engineers have reviewed all or all available data. However, all of that said, it was an informative video.
You are wrong. There's far too many retired engineers calling other engineers "wannabees". The law clearly states, and I showed it, if the roof is damaged above 25% you must replace the entire roof. You can't just repair the roof. I don't see how you could get that wrong.
Jeff, do you believe that if the condo board did all the repairs, that the building wouldn't have collapsed?
It depends on the scope of the project. IF they were going to replace the entire pool deck concrete slab and re-tie it into the columns along the edge of the building, I think the building could have survived. I would have tried to widen as many columns as they could have, and added drop panels and caps tot he tops of the thinner columns
They had the right idea, they just started too late, after profound (and invisible to surface inspection) damage had been done. The big unknown is, did the roof construction even meet goals up to its basic expected (15 year) lifespan, never mind its bean-counter delay extended lifespan? The constant complaints of water intrusion (which starts with the roof!) over the years suggests that it was never quite right. How far back would they have had to go to nip this in the bud? That, I can't answer.
if area 2 was most saturated, perhaps that is where repair materials were put to be started and, area 2 looks like a part of the building that is in the middle which if fell could create the catastrophic event which happened
Area 2 is the elevator shaft, which survived the collapse
@@jeffostroff it's surprising it never leaked
As you say Jeff, NOT a factor in the collapse, BUT... Yet Another example of the HOA's overall "letting things go until it's really, REALLY bad" pattern of behavior. =:O
This one I would not so much blame on them because you don't know there's a problem until you do the meter test. However certainly they should have the roof inspected maybe every three to five years just to make sure there's nothing visible like pooling water. If you have pooling water it's just a matter of time before you have water intrusion because if the water has nowhere to go it will find the path of least resistance
I have O&I coverage on my house, my house currently has a split deck roof structure. I can't have a single shingle patched through my insurance technically.. They'd have to replace the entire roof structure, which is gonna be a fun fight. If the time comes..
Yes hopefully that time never comes
@@jeffostroff Throwing a metal roof on it this spring, I don't plan on being here much longer as the value of the property is pretty stable with or without the 80 year old house.. LOL
I can rezone the lot commercial.
Any word if any of the security camera video footage was collected from the building debris? Took months but we got the 911 audio and police body-cam footage...
IF they ever release it, this will be years down the road
In my opinion they did not want to warn any one because they did not want to be held liable by the condo association if they were wrong.
Anyone could always alert the city and the city would send people to inspect
J built a 100,000 SF 12 story reinforced concrete structure in n1971. It has been closed by the building inspector due to concrete Spalding and tenants stating they could feel vibrations. Since many tenants have long-term leases for space, it is a lawyer's banquet. The owner says he may have the nine-million dollar building demolished for another $4 million. No lives were lost. but the Florida structure sure is a big influence. How many more are there around the county. Engineering is becoming a full-time teaching profession..
Yes concrete is a problem material down here in fL
Things rarely happen on their own. In my experience, failures happen after someone does something. It would be one huge coincidence that the roofers were working on the building RIGHT before it collapsed. I expect some chain reaction started by the work on the roof and the disrepair of water intrusion to be the culprit. That roofing company is screwed.
I don't think he roof was a root cause, I think there was much more damage to that pool deck
@@jeffostroff after seeing this comment, it got me to thinking: was sagging of the underlying structure possibly being indicated? Interestingly, the driest section of map is about where the collapse seems to have started, making me think that perhaps the slope was altered just enough for the drains to be able to work effectively on that section. Not an engineer, just a thought that occurred to me.
@@kstricl I don't think that the roof had anything to do with the collapse although it did appear there may have been some water getting in certain places. But the more obvious spot is down at the pool deck where the pool deck collapsed that collapsed and likely caused the columns in that area to lose support because they were spendily columns to begin with. That the roof caved in on its own I think it came down when the rest of the building came down.
@@jeffostroff Sorry, I guess my thought didn't really come through - I was just thinking that slow settling of those same columns in the basement might have caused the sections of roof with the drains to drop slightly, allowing the water to drain effectively - so the dry sections may have been a symptom of what was going on rather than a cause. 100% concur on your conclusions so far. I've subscribed so I notice the videos sooner as you analyze the reports that do come out.
@@kstricl That is an astute theory. The proper drainage on that section could have been from excessive sinkage in that particular spot. Perhaps the most water intrusion from below was coming in the parking garage in that area.
Witness' said the collapse began in the area where cars were parked and cascaded to the planter area. Not the other way around. I believe the vibration from construction weakened the connection between the deck and the columns under the parking area.
Well if you look closely at the witness accounts nobody was able to tell which way it really propagated. The witness accounts I saw in the most credible one would be Sarah nurse who was with the security guard in the lobby telling her to call 911, when she saw the cars in the covered parking deck collapsed down into the garage. She had no way of knowing what way they propagated in the collapse.
It's likely the pool deck collapse happened quickly (or all at once) and made it's way to the building columns in seconds. The vibration theory is nonsense. The pool deck was incompetently designed and extremely underbuilt.
So why did they pay HOA fees? Isn't the HOA responsible for the roof care?
Yes, they were getting around to the roof. The roof was not the problem.
So where do those roof drains outflow?
They likely went down through a special drainage system and into storm water drainage to the city. Nowadays they don't allow that kind of stuff and many new construction projects they want some sort of retaining pond to be built where you drain off to they don't want your runoff from storms anymore
I still believe, as I said nearly right after this happened, that there will never be a specific smoking but a large number of errors, not any of which would have come anywhere near to causing collapse but as time went on and many things changed requiring materials never dreamed of when the building was constructed that would need to be use to keep up with code, but where no one went back to look and see if a building that age could support new materials and their weight as small things such as repairers and renovations force the building to incorporate things it was never meant to deal with; and for example the location of the building going from more of a moderate cost home for retirees when built , to expensive condo as location, not renovation drove up the price, and many owners found that to be worth the price, things like lightweight cabinets, plumbing fixtures, built in, new flooring went from things that looked real to actually having to be real: real wood, real marble and granite, real flooring and all of this increased the weight probbaly well past what the original architects ever imagined.
Something was wrong with that building but sadly, as much as 20 years before it was required to have a recertification done, the damage had gone past what could have been repair to continue habitation in that building and its possible that as far back as the initial drawing of the building it, and many others, were doomed simply because there were no codes that locked buildings into not allowing heavier materials when renovations occurred, or even consideration of heavy types of furniture and so on. It also seems that private firms and individuals often received permits to run additional plumbing in the walls and it cant be hard to believe if this happened in enough spaces the concrete could have actually become weak because of honey combing. We may never know, as I doubt anyone will even speak up at least from those that inspected a head of the certification, that the building was actually a goner, and all they could possibly do was, maybe keep it standing for a year or two for people to get out but the reason for so much foot dragging when they should have been hard at work getting that building in shape for recertification for 3-6 years in advance, while instead they seemed to be doing little to nothing or just enough that anyone suspicious would see some work going on. Have really felt since the beginning of this that the HOA actually had given up on this building passing certification and was more prepared to having to deal with a building deemed uninhabitable and forcing owners out on the street and to settle with insurance and law suits which they may have figured was going to be the issue anyway as the building could not be repair no matter the amount of money put aside. Its a good chance that it looked to the some owners, especially the ones not living in their units but renting them out to others, and the HOA ,it would be much cheaper to fight off law suits and make deals with insurance companies if the building was condemned and they could then level the building and build a new and better building which would have condos selling at much greater prices, and chances are there would be profit in doing this.
However, no one either knew or bother to let anyone know that the building might not even withstand forces liable to be pushed at it over the years they were waiting for an inspection to condemn the property. Every piece of rebar that corroded enough to expand and knock out a chunk of concrete, every bit of standing water on the roof that seeped through the roof materials and into the interior walls, would slowly be weakening the building, but no way to measure how much, and add to that all the other issues that seem to have been there, some of which must have been done in the original construction, from places like having a column only in the garage, not running up through the building although the plans called for it, but seems it was only build in the garage where it would be noticed if not there, but although it was a support column, it did not continue upwards
Yes one thing about concrete, keep it cleaned, keep it sealed, patch up and reseal all cracks when they first start to develop.
We are theorising and researching in our F b group called ChAmPlain ToWers SoUth- searching for answers ( only typing it like that) was because for some reason RUclips doesn’t like those words. You’d be a great addition to our group . The link is also my profile here . 😄
Well, the way things might have gone is let's say that they would have had time to replace the roof in whole before a collapse.... Then a week after a complete roof replacement, the entire building collapses..... That would have put a double twist on things...
I wonder how much all that tar weighed that they added
Jeff could then say on a Video, that the Roofing Paper made the building come down, should of used Wax Paper instead!!
What is the issue? More moisture makes the roof heavier?
The issue is that once you have a lot of moisture in all of those membranes and all of the insulation, first of all the insulation loses its properties. Second of all you're adding a lot of weight on top of the roof, and thirdly with moisture trapped underneath all of them layers it is now sitting on top of the concrete where it will soak into the concrete, make the rebar in it rust and expand and cause concrete spalling with the concrete just starts cracking and weakening and that would be very bad.
I always found it a bit strange that most (things) today are inaccurate/faulty, a flat roof is always dead flat......not allowing water to drain(???)
Lou it is called a built up low slope roof. The concrete slab is flat on the roof yes, but when they add those layers of membrane they are supposed to be built up in a manner that makes them sloped toward the drain it's not rocket science and any roofer should know how to do this but very few of them get it right
@@jeffostroff The Polyiso insulation sheets are available tapered (i.e one end of the sheet is thicker than the other, to create the required slope on the roof surface. I'm a roofer, and yes, its not rocket science, just common sense.
I agree with your assessment, however it DOES speak to the overall condition and maintenance practices present at the building. One thing I’d LOVE for you focus on is the Champlain towers north… this continually bugs me, what were they doing different than CTS? Did they replace their roof first? Was it pitched or drained differently?
I think comparing the two structures could be the easiest way to uncover any criminal negligence (from a legal standpoint) - as why would they have changed x,y,z, - did they realize it was incorrect and posed a risk on the initial CTS build?
I’m assuming this is what lawyers are attempting to do right now, but again CTN is a great control I think. Just what steps in initial construction, engineering, and maintenance could have allowed one building to become so dilapidated compared to another of similar age and construction? That’s the key.
CTN paid attention to maintenance before it damaged their building. CTS did not. It's that simple.
@@johnbergstrom2931 Right, I think we all know that - I’m saying where are the records showing the actual differences in maintenance and money invested into things like replacing the roof or fixing water issues, etc.
Also no, I am getting the impression that there were some significant changes between the construction of the two structures… I think that’s highly relevant.
I did manage to get inside the building of the north towers but I got kicked out they apparently have a lot of problems going on there as well because their pool has been closed for several months now and they are likely facing similar issues as they go through their 40 year recertification as well. The Champlain tower South building was on a larger site so certainly in the floor plans the north towers have two fewer condos per floor than the CTS did. Most of the garages are almost exactly the same floor plan on the eastern side of the garage for both buildings
@@EstorilEm I'm sure any records showing CTS incompetence were shredded or mysteriously disappeared in late June...
The differences between the 2 buildings were not as important as the most important similarity: they were both built by Nathan Reiber. I'm sure CTN is seriously entertaining the offer by a developer to buy it (and CTE) and demolish them.
@@johnbergstrom2931 Very good point (and assumption) - luckily this is high-profile enough that I don’t think it’ll be that easy.
I hope the State inspectors take a closer look at the North Tower to determine their roof water saturation levels.
This is normal for all 40 year certifications, if not it should be
@@jeffostroff I would think these high rise apartments and other commercial buildings should be inspected every 10 years for water saturation levels being in Florida and all.
The other building would of fell too!!, Jeffery!, why it didn’t!, because it had Big around standing Columns .
The other building was built to the same floor plan all of the columns were the same thickness I think they just got lucky in the sense that their pool deck has not collapsed yet
Still think it had everything to do with those Palm Tree's roots in the drains. They should pass a law against planting actual trees within the infrastructure of a building. Just SMH at the complete neglect that caused so many deaths and ruined lives.
Tes, the palm trees, the weight, the level pool deck, no proper drainage
I am somewhat perplexed by the way the roof is insulated and waterproofed. It seems to me complicated and not very durable. Having wood and other stuff that can get waterlogged seems a strange thing to do. I do not understand much about roofs beyond observing when my roof was built. It is quite simple. There is the reinforced concrete slab, then on top of that is a layer of polyurethane foam which was sprayed on and is about 80mm thick. That does the heat insulation and waterproofing. On top of that is a layer of screed which is then topped off by about 40mm of poured cement giving it the final smooth finish.
It seems to me that it is quite impossible for it to leak unless the polyurethane foam somehow decomposes. I think water accumulates in the screed but it doesn't do anything because the polyurethane foam prevents it from going further. It seems to me a logical way to do it and I'm not quite sure why not all roofs are done that way.
The membrane and mopped on tar over the top with aggregate is supposed to protect the lower layers for 15 to 20 years.
@@jeffostroff Yes, I understand that but what I do not understand is the choice of materials. Why put insulation that can be damaged by water rather than one which is itself the waterproofing? It just seems to make no sense to me. It would for a building made a century or two ago when there did not exist a better choice of materials. Are they just sticking to old methods because of outdated codes or something of the sort?
The way I see it is that it is better to have something that does not need to be protected from water rather than trying, and failing, to protect a vulnerable material.
Another thing that seems to me to be seriously wrong is having a permeable layer of material sandwiched between the waterproofing and the slab. That allows any water that gets past the membrane to spread over a wide area before it starts penetrating the concrete slab and when it does eventually get through the concrete it is everywhere and you have no idea where the leak is, all the insulation has been ruined and the roof slab itself may have also been damaged due to the long presence of water. On the other hand with polyurethane foam, even in the unlikely event that it is punctured or fails in some way then the water that gets through will appear directly below as a damp spot on the ceiling. That is because the foam adheres to the concrete surface and will prevent water from spreading laterally. The leak spot can therefore be easily located and repairs can then be carried out on a very small area around that spot by cutting a square of the top cement layer to gain access.
i almost lost my best friend from this collapse, some guy pulled him from da rubble
I heard about that 115 year old guy? I heard he was on the 10th floor patio and it collapsed and he ended up around the 5 th floor.
His name was Jonah
@@jeffostroff a jew kid like me
@@jeffostroff he still needs new kidneys and a lung
I have no knowledge or experience, but just pondering the idea... that the water intrusion could have started from the roof or from forced rain off the ocean (also salt corrosion possibly), but it doesn't have to sit on the roof deck, but potentially permeate through the multiple levels of the floors, run down columns or walls, cause noticeable bubbling, and then eventually show signs in the basement I'm guessing. So taking a reading from the roof is great and all, but since there are so many important structural members to support all that concrete and steel, it seems like it would be fair to also inspect them as well. Maybe they already have. But it just wasn't in this particular video. This all goes to us humans wanting the seaside view. So the only way to do that is to go vertical.
Yes in terms of roof repairs, this is what they normally check for. They already know what was wrong down on the pool deck, as they took core samples of the concrete through to he garage below.
I'm living in an older building that just had a 5.9 earthquake in anchorage , do they inspect these buildings after earthquakes ?
I don't know, let me know after it collapses!!!
@@jeffostroff I will try
Well, the epicenter was 135 miles away from Anchorage, so I don't think you have anything to worry about. Back in March 2020, we had a 5.7 quake centered 3 miles from my house. Caused a lot of cosmetic damage (brick parapet walls falling, cracks in older 19th century multistory masonry buildings) but no deaths, and only one structure was damaged to the point it had to be demolished.
@@johnbergstrom2931 there is an open parking under the back half of the building there are columns with a beam around the perimeter. Looks like there are some cracks in the masonry on the beams at the center between the columns. Some of the cracks look old and some look new , I believe they had an earthquake a few years ago. Thanks for your response.
@@seanokeefe703 It's really the old masonry buildings (19th century) that are at risk. They didn't use portland cement in the mortar back then. I don't think you have too much of that in Alaska. Seems like your earthquake awareness/preparedness up there has been pretty good as well...
Another chapter in the catalogue of errors.
This building appears to be a showcase example of how to look for problems and not see them.
Flat slabs deflect and that thin over time deflect a lot. The dirt on the roof shows the degree of ponding. Ponded water is live load and if if gets in the hidden lake can be a serious problem.
Yes, I have seen this. GRP over GRP over GRP each as bad as the last and underneath the water ponded rusted the trapezoidal deck and p******d in. The whole lot was stripped - not sure if they are still arguing over costs.
The ponding water is actually a static load but yes still a load nonetheless. People forget to that water weighs 8 pounds per gallon and so all of that water pooled on the roof adds up as well. Although I still don't think the roof had anything to do with the collapse but it just shows how either poor design or poor execution of the construction allowed too much water to pool or get into the concrete on this particular project
@@jeffostroff Erm Terminology live as in an an imposed load like snow. I agree with you - I too think it is a side bar issue. Yet another indicator of how under/poorly designed/built/maintained the building was. What do you think of the legal challenge by CTS alleging that in constructing 87 that developer caused the collapse? (By damaging CTS perimeter wall)
It won't bring back anyone who died, but it may help prevent more deaths in the future, but I think some people should be in jail for years. What happened was totally preventable and people needlessly suffered, someone should be held accountable, and made an example of.
Yes it is so unfortunate, and I hope it wakes up other HOAs to let them know this can happen here
Miami town of Surfside?
It helps narrow it down for people it's not really a town inside Miami it is actually a half a block north of the Miami Beach border.
I think the building was badly designed to begin with and I never knew these buildings can be all cement and re-bar without any steel girder beam frame- this is why it collapsed - it's a cheap cost saver way to build and dangerous, who knows how many other buildings like this are ready to collapse, very scary. Also, to back up my opinion, there are plenty of abandoned buildings that have had no maintenance for years and are still standing.
concrete columns and slab designs have been used for years the point is you just have to protect I don't think deep material from water intrusion. That requires maintenance and keeping an eye on the building and looking for cracks and spalling and catching it early not waiting until they pulled their collapses
I don't understand why this building needed roof anchors for window washing. It was pretty much surrounded with walkways and railing.
OSHA requirements
He doeant have a very good building inspection eye. wth🤔
Your non yellow mouse cursor needs to be larger and give more contrast. As you flipped around sometimes it seemed to disappear. Content script was great.
For whatever reason some applications don't observe the cursor that I created I believe Adobe PDF Acrobat is one of those programs so yes sometimes we don't get to see it but it is there
11:55 Roof area 2 Wet materials: 666 ft squared
The devils roof
can u do a tool give away from your rooff
Ultimate drop test
Humm.. water wasn't draining on the roof & by the pool?
IT was collecting
At 4:31 you show a cross section of the Champlain Tower South condominiums roof.
Your blue color shows water into the concrete, that’s not very likely to happen. You said the multiply layers are there to provide slope to the roof, these layers do not add slope. Slope is added in the Polyisocyanurate layer and the mineral aggregate is not buried in tar, the aggregate is added to and on top of the asphalt layer when it’s hot and should be a mixture with the aggregate visible to reflect ultraviolet sun rays.
Further the area when you say the first column to give way had a comparative low moisture reading of 18-22, with no water notes. Core cut #1 you said at 20 was dry.
You should revisit this video and edit the areas where you use opinion disguised as fact.
Fantastic video again Jeff. I showed your baby Yoda : when are you going to pin our group name.? 🤣 I had the same question re roof . Penny pinchers that’s why . I think Morabito had hugely inflated costs anyhow.
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it!
@@jeffostroff Thank you so much for the explanation of the 25% of the roof replacement. I was completely at a loss when I looked it up. The wording is ambiguous.
Why it’s like that , I still don’t fully understand. But hey it’s Florida
Has anyone been held accountable for this?
There are currently lawsuits going on everybody is suing everybody they are even suing the building next door.
The extra weight of water sitting within that roof membrane certainly wouldn't have helped the structural stability and shear point stresses.
Yes, so important to drain those roofs
4:16 - Bituman is a commercial roof membrane itself.
Bitumen is a sticky, black, highly viscous liquid or semi-solid form of petroleum.
Typo detected.
Good info thanks!
Yeah seems like while perhaps the roof wasn't the cause, it certainly was indicative of the cause. Lack of maintenance, and maybe bad design/construction, leading to water getting into places it wasn't supposed to be, compromising the structure.
You got it, a perfect synopsis
The amount of extra weight in that roof has to be a contributing factor in the collapse.
It could be I still believe that hand the pool deck area concrete not disintegrated and become useless, the building could have stood up even to the added weight on the roof and the penthouse. But the problem is is when you collapse that pool deck and now you're left with columns that are tall and skinny they're going to buckle under that weight load because they don't have the aid of all of the other columns distributing the load through the pool deck slab which is now collapsed.
One would think that the hot Florida sun would have baked out any moisture.
Not with frequent rains, it gets way down there. It would take a few weeks with no rain and hot sun
When watching your videos on a phone you can't see your cursor lol
It should have never happened. Those poor families 😢
I agree
"we're going to DIVE into the excess water on the roof" video?
Dive right in water is warm