And you take 30 minutes of table time (note, not in game time, real world time) shouting at the table crouched in a straining position making constipated noses while your friends look on with worry.
I definitely agree with your thoughts on the Kensei, but a new player joined my table and - while I was explaining all the class and subclass options to him - he got extremely excited about the idea of being a monk with a trident and a bunch of other weird weapons. So I guess for some people, it's exactly what they want to play!
Chro I’m personally looking forward to whenever I get the chance to play D&D, I’m going to be a Kensei monk with a Tetsubo as my main weapon. A polearm-spiked club hybrid seems quite fitting.
I personally think the drunken master is fine. I have a dwarf character who is a professional brewer. He learned his skills in bar fights and instead of the normal dexterity and wisdom monk, he is a strength and constitution monk. His story is that he lost his tavern in a siege on where he lived. He swore to avenge is ancestors tavern and uses his skills in bar fights as his moral martial arts. Brute force instead of dexterity.
Great origin story Alex. I've always loved the strength monk. There was a monk fighting style back in Pathfinder that converted your Flurry of Blows damage into a single huge attack. Very fitting for a strength Monk. Check it out if curious, the section under 'Pummeling Style' for Monks. www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/style-feats/
Thank you. I'll look it up. I used to play pathfinder with a group at my school and enjoyed it. Still prefer 5e but I still have fun looking over pathfinder.
I loved my kensai Goblin cook who solved almost every problem with bacon and if he needed to fight he used his cooking utensils: a frying pan, a short bow made out of his bent ladle, and of course his spatula of disintegration.
I love it. You know, I keep running into these historical accounts of expedition parties and explorers who specifically included a Cook in their numbers. It should be a thing for DnD as well. Custom class time.
Played a little bit of a Drunken Master and they do best when you really jump into a group and keep circling around and using your low level abilities. Especially Redirect Attack has proven incredibly useful seeing how it automatically hits... combined with a dodge you can use it pretty reliably aswell! Using a troll to smash a little goon or hit his friend with those giant claws is incredibly strong and a very nice feature!
For drunken master, I would grant the 17th level skill at 6th level and instead 17th level will allow you to us ki points to reduce damage of a hit by loosening your body and using ki to follow through the attacks. Don't now what kind of reduction, whether using martial arts dice, or hit dice, or set value based on level with a multiplier, or whether it scales with ki input, whether through dice or set amounts in a chart, but I feel it fits with mastering the drunk style in that even if you're hit, you can still keep fighting like nothing happened.
Combine it with Barbarian and you got even SS rage. Now you are only missing Kamehameha :/ The Kensei is little bit lacking on the 17th level. My DM changed it that if you miss with your weapon you can move aditional 10 feet to another target and basically redirect the attack (+reroll). So thematically you keep with the flow and precision that Kensei is about.
Exactly, Ki control doesn't come with being a Saiyan(Race) or Super Saiyan(Transformation) (It does come with Blue, but that's a form of ki control not the skill itself Note: Godlike) Ki Control is the skill that you acquire(and perfect) on your road to those forms.(which are only accessible to the designated races. Unless you're a Majin[Unnamed] then just go ham absorbing their powers for yourself/ Alt method: Cell type Biomachine; find a way to manifest their powers in you own biology. [Zerg-Style] create a swarm of mini-Me's and go conquer the universe, only you get to absorb power from your victims, if any of your minions do, they don't add to the power of later gens of soldiers.)
Yes but a monk gets a bunch of things they can do that a rogue can't, immunity to disease and poison, ending charmed or frightened effects as an action, slow fall, stunning strike, the ability to run up or along walls and jump long distances, evasion, proficiency in all saving throws (at 14th level), they need some sort of balance, look at the class and subclass as a whole, if you take the mobile feat the kensei monk can close distance deal pretty good damage and get out no problem and agile parry means if the can't they still have solid AC (if they dodge as a bonus action then even better)
I have been using a drunken monk and at first was not sure about it. I'm now at level 6 and have learned how to fight with him. Most battles I take little to no damage as I make my attacks then disengage and move to other foes that are attacking my party, then bounce back. Of course most of my party can take hits so they don't mind that I just deal damage to all foes and not just focus on one. How ever I do steal a lot of kills.
Having played a drunken master for a number of months, I can say it’s the most fun I’ve ever had in a character. The potential for role play is beautiful with a lenient DM.
I'm happy to hear that Elliot -- you aren't the first who's had glowing remarks about the archetype. What have you liked the most, both in terms of character abilities and role play wise?
I think you're missing the point way of the kensei. Be able to choose non-traditional monk weapons and give them the benefit of being monk is just kind of cool. One with the blade is definitely the best ability. Making it that you're weapons are considered magical is fantastic especially considering the your ranged weapons the benefit of being magical.
I've actually had a ton of fun with my Ninja Tortle build going way of the Kensei. The combat abilities I feel are all pretty solid but I agree the Kensei capstone is a bit lackluster. I do feel that it makes up for it in the Role play aspect though. Playing a surfer dude tortle who's scary good with multiple kinds of weapons is a blast to play. Like I could kill you but then we couldn't be bro's you know bro?
Tortle Kensei X/Barbarian 3-4 that focuses on STR is an amazing build. 17 AC from being a Tortle. 2 str and 1 wisdom is awesome. Barbarian lvls enable: - Rage for resistance and +flat dmg - Danger Sense - Reckless Attack With an item like bracers of defense and kensei +2 ac, you have a respectable 21 AC Use longsword as primary weapon, at lvl 6 take daggers as easily transportable ranged weapons. Yes, it is unconventional. Yes, you lack Dex for stealth and saving throws (fixed by danger sense + evasion). But I love it regardless. Want some roleplaying ideas? Look no further than Raphael from TMNT.
Quick question that I want a second opinion. So for the Kensei’s Agile Parry ability it says "If you make an unarmed strike as part of the Attack action on your turn and are holding a kensei weapon , you can use it to defend yourself if it is a melee weapon. You gain a +2 bonus to AC until the start of your next turn , while the weapon is in your hand and you aren’t incapacitated." Would it count If I do my weapon attack and then bonus action unarmed strike or do I have to commit my whole action to just the unarmed strike?
At my own table I would say yes, the bonus action unarmed strike would trigger the bonus (even though I can understand being strict on the text). I just can't stand when a character's class mechanics fight against itself. A kensai monk is unique among monks since it focuses on weapon use, it'd be self defeating if using those weapons then precluded one of your other abilities. The only concern is if the AC bonus is too high, but honestly I think monks need a smidge of help in 5e anyway. Let it run videogamefreered!
I know, late reply. This was the beef I had with this otherwise very good video. I gotta say I agree with the RAW. You must use an unarmed strike as part of your action, not bonus action. So before 5th level you can make two unarmed strikes, and at 5th and above at least one attack must be unarmed. If using a long sword, you give up an average of 2 damage (1d8 vs 1d4 at low levels) for a +2 BONUS to AC. Pretty nice if you ask me, which you didn't. :)
you have to make an unarmed strike as part of the attack action to be able to use agile parry (you essentially trade damage for defense by parrying strikes instead of attacking with the weapon) but the trade is is a little steep at this level IMO), at level 5 when you get extra attack and and unarmed strike damage dice upgrade it gets better then at level six you get one with the blade and can spend a ki point to deal extra damage equal to your martial arts damage dice with your kensei weapons which more than makes up for the trade off of damage for defense (if you roll well), if you take the mobile feat (which is amazing for any monk in general and i highly recommend for a Kensei monk) most of the time you can get in attack at full power and get out with no problem but if you get stuck or you want to go toe to toe for a bit you have a defensive option to fall back on, the way of the kensei's mechanics don't fight against itself, they scale, as you get stronger they get stronger, . . . . . and once you hit 17th level there isn't even a difference in damage you can deal with or without a weapon, only the type of damage you deal
@@ekturner3 unarmed strikes do not have to be just punches, you can elbow, knee, kick , head-butt etc..., so if you are using a longsword (or any versatile weapon) you can use it 2 handed so (for a longsword) the damage would be a D10 not a D8, the way of the Kensei says you can't use 2-handed weapons (like greatswords, greataxes, halberds and mauls etc...) not that you can't use a weapon 2 handed (like a longsword which has the versatile trait), otherwise a quarterstaff would become useless for all monks in general after level 5, the effect of agile parry starts off pretty weak (the AC boost is great but the trade off to damage is big, you go from a d10 to a d4) but once you get extra attack and your martial arts damage dice gets better and you get deft strike and later sharpen the blade, agile parry gets better and better until at 17th level when the damage dice for both unarmed and weapon strikes becomes the same.
@@thefracturedbutwhole5475 Didn't realize I could use my long sword with 2 hands and still make an unarmed strike (I did know it was more than just punching, however). Rereading the martial arts ability tells me I've been short changing my monk. Thanks.
i was reading that and I thought super saiyan as well.. I'm playing a monk and way of open fist. after this part of the campaign is done since we are all new the DM said he will allow us to pick a different subclass if we don't like out subclass. I was only interested in the soul.. seemed like a different way then open palm... but i would like to death punch someone haha
I think my only complaint with the monk as a whole is the ki points. I think you should have at least your level times 2 for your ki amount, and maybe a ki charge feature earlier on?
So I found with some tinkering of my own the dunken master head been one of my favorite subclass for my players to use. It dose seem like they weren't sure what they were doing with it sadly.
I bump the drunken frenzy to 6th or 11th lv based on the type of campaign or play style of the party member. I normaly spread out the # of attacks as they level up so they arent overpowered right away. The other level up either get bumped up or I let them take a feat or a boon if it at 17 level. I havent seen it played out that far but it seems to work well so far.
Currently having a lot of fun with a tabaxi "way of the drunken master" monk. Atm at lvl 10 and combat already feels kinda broken... have up to 4 attacks (so 4 oppertunities to try and get a stun off), automatic disengage + 10ft movement, and using feline agility he can move 120ft even across liquids and/or vertical surfaces without the need of a dash action. As a thought experimemt, imagine a team-up with a spellcaster who can cast haste. At lvl 10 he has 50ft unarmored movement which than gets doubled, take 2 dash actions and use step off the wind as a bonus, and use feline agility to double movement once more, thats 800 feet movement in one round. Battle maps have become a playground to this drunken cat.
You are looking at tipsy sway wrong you combine it with your drunken technique. You are right that this subclass is to make the monk slippery and able to hit multiple people. But remember other monks, and/or rogues have to use their bonus action to disengage so they don't take AoOPs. The drunken master activates flurry of blows hits multiple targets move to them as he needs to, and because of his drunken technique they get part of the "Mobile" feat for free. To my point, Say there are multiple targets, you go in hit a couple, and then you activate flurry of blows and attack a few more all the while moving between them with free disengage (from drunken technique) on top of that you have high mobility which again lets you be able to move away from them with 10 extra feet of movement combined with your already higher movement. From here say, they have one archer that you can't reach at this point. you move towards them and then you fall prone. (falling as if you are drunk) Therefore giving the archer disadvantage on his attacks at you. Don't forget any time you land any one of those blows Ki points willing you can stun them. In perfect setup you stun a few of the melees or all, move away from them and fall prone. Melee's don't get actions next turn and the archer has a harder time hitting you. your next turn you leapt to you feet for only 5 ft of movement, and then you move to right on top of the archer and bam you take them out. Archer down and/or stunned and your ready for the next turn. Don't forget this is a party game. So the melees are getting pummeled by your team between your turns as well as the archer. The Drunken master potentially goes from being a single target lock down to whole party crowd control machine. Drunkard's Luck is basically a free cleanse at the expense of Ki on all that it affects. How many times is just that one attack that lands at the end of your turn or friends turn that gets the "how do you want to do this." from your GM. How many times does making the save let you live? How many times does making that check benefit the party? Intoxicated Frenzy man this high level ability takes the example above and puts it on steroids. but yeah at 17 level is pretty far into a game. The only thing i wish they would of added was a drunk mechanic where after years of mastery of this technique you know the perfect balance of being drunk that would give you resistance to damage. but to balance that i would say if you miss an attack you have to role a dice and if you fail the check you fall prone. but guess what "Leap to your feet." and your back up depending on how much movement you have used or haven't used. I don't know if you've made an updated vid on this, but I hope you read this, or have had someone else mention these points. This class has much more potential than you gave it.
I have a level 3 V Human Kensei with the Mobile feat. He is the ultimate skirmisher and can deal 1d10 with a Longsword. I plan on taking whip at 6, to give the equivalent of a shortsword with reach.
The benefits do drop off it seems. Honestly I feel that way about a lot of classes/archetypes in 5e. The game seems to have a lot more defined for pre-12.
Good news it's an excuse to multiclass for more effects that sync with your weapons. I'd pick fighter battle master myself, especially with the fighting style bonuses and more maneuvers that help sell the Kensai a master of weapons and battle tactics.
@@jemm113 most fighting styles wouldn't work for a kensei (or any monk), monks don't use shields or armor (so protection and defense are out), monks can't use 2-handed weapons (so great weapon fighting is out) monks already get a bonus action attack or 2 if they use a ki point (so 2 weapon fighting is out), i guess a way of the Kensei could take archery but although the kensei can be a ranged combatant if they hang back and shoot from a distance a lot of their other abilities become nearly useless but you could make it work (i don't think it would be as good a ranged attacker as the fighter or ranger but you could do it)
The Fractured But Whole Actually a Kensei Monk can use a two handed weapon if the weapon is versatile (since it can’t have the heavy property but versatile weapons aren’t heavy). So u pick up a warhammer or longsword and do d10 right at lv 3 (y it’s the easiest monk subclass to multiclass class out of and which might be y it’s one of my faves since I love multiclassing lol)
Do you think the Drunken Master has to be a Drunkard? I want to reskin this Monastic Tradition to make a monk that flows in and out of combat as often as possible using the mechanics but I don't want to have to make him be a fool or an embarrassment to the party. The path seems the most elegant to me with ignoring disengagement, redirecting blows (Having a reason to use the dodge action) and at lvl 17 gracefully darting inbetween several enemies striking them all and escaping before anyone can land a blow. To me at least seems like a more skilled purely physical combatant than the other paths as it doesn't focus on the spritualism or magic type effects. Can they be a physically excellent monk that isn't drunk or is the drunken unpredictability part of the Monastic Tradition in your opinion?
Totally -- a kinetic flow style is what the style leverages to be successful in combat, so I don't see why not! Heck it might even help cure the archetype of its thematic oddity.
Re theming as a Buster Keatonesque flowing slapstick routine would make for really solid imagery that matches the mechanics as well. Just kind of flailing around and it all works out.
Claude Painter-Wain I’m DMing a game set in the Elder Scrolls. My friend is playing a Khajiit Drunken Master who USED to be an alcoholic, then got into a fight with some racist a-holes and realized getting hit in the head while drunk hurts like hell, so she developed a style of redirecting attacks as opposed to straight blocking them. Eventually she quit drinking but took the style she made and taught others, eventually forming her own monastery. All this to say that the thematic elements can vary so long as the mechanics support it 👍🏽
I've just tarted playing a Lizardfolk Drunken Master who has no idea what alcohol even is. iirc the actual style of fighting that influences this doesn't require the practitioner to be intoxicated. go for it!
So, as someone who knows Zui Quan (Drunken Fist), gotta say, I love the Drunken Fist Monk thematically. I agree that it is a little underwhelming, but really? I don't care. It's fun to play, so therefore I love it
If you took the Tavern Brawler feat, I’d let you use improvised weapons as Monk weapons. Only 1d4 anyway (but would scale with your Martial Arts die). It’s a feat tax, and you wouldn’t get all the Kensei goodies. But you surely could pull off a bunch of Jackie Chan-style combinations. And even mix in a grapple here and there as a bonus action.
Commenting way after the fact but I just wanted to chip in to say that I generally agree with your overall assessment of how good each are and that I feel that while Drunken Master seems too poorly done to do much with, Kensei was a neat idea though to use your words is only halfway there. Given that kensei *usually* translates as "sword saint"/"master swordsman" (and half the level based perks reference the blade) I think it would have been better if it focused more on blade abilities. Sharpen the Blade and Unerring Accuracy feel as if Sun Soul took up all the budget and the team behind it tried to make do with string and putty in a crafts contest. tldr; this kensei should have spent more time studying the blade :V Given that Sun Soul is basically a bare handed shounen hero, why shouldn't Kensei be a blademaster shounen hero?
So I have to ask about the sun soul, if those blasts replace your monk attacks does that mean if I make a melee attack that it's a normal unarmed attack and not scaled up like other monks?
My problem is the Kensei is why do I need 3 more weapons at those later levels. Monks barely have to use weapons at all at higher levels. I know the build tried to change that but at its base class no archetype influence the kensei still is powerful unarmed
It is a bit odd, making the weapon selections, but I might understand it better now. A closer read of Kensei reminds me that any weapon selected for Kensei is then classified as a monk weapon on top of the normal monk weapon options. The point of interest being that you can then use Martial Arts damage in place of default weapon damage, so selecting the 3 extra weapon types is really just to help you fit whatever weapons you run into in-game into your Kensei powers (Parry/Shot/Deft Strike/Sharpen). So you don't necessarily lose any power for wielding a weapon, and it grants you the extra Kensei options. Hit me back with thoughts mate.
Titan Bear Gaming it allows you access to martial weapons but by about 10th level the martial arts die become d8s and then later more so regardless of using a longsword or a dagger at level 11 you’d be dealing the same damage (martial arts dice) with either. It’s just why I don’t understand the new weapons at 11th and 17th other than flare. Without access to the reach property we are rolling d8s at those higher levels regardless of what weapon you are using. At lower levels it’s great to have martial and range weapons for monk weapons for those initial hits outside the unarmed strikes but after level 10 it’s mechanically pointless for the melee weapons.
I think I would probably house-rule this one to negate the "anything without heavy or special" qualifiers on choosing your Kensai weapon. I don't see it trodding so badly on the fighter/barb/paladin territory that we shouldn't do it, and it helps differentiate the archetype a bit better, given your concerns above. Without the house-rule, it does beg the question whats the point of the extra weapon selections. Unless you really really like War Picks, then go ham baby.
Titan Bear Gaming that’s what i was thinking too. I mean there are many two-handed and reach “monk” weapons. And yes I don’t think i most the archetypes kind of make it so you can step on other classes territories
I totally see Kensei here as that iconic scene from Flying Tiger Hidden Dragon wielding a long polearm and doing spinny flippy, blade jumping tricks. It kind of surprises me that the text doesnt by default support this -- i'm totally down for it homebrew.
Honestly Ive always felt that the way of the sun soul is very lacking, not 4 elements bad but still hardly worth sticking with Monk all the way to level 17, the Searing Sunburst doesnt save for half damage so you can dump a bunch of ki into a more avoidable fireball and the Sun Shield just feels pointless especially with the Monk having better uses for their reaction in their deflect missiles ability. If one of my players were interested in the Sun Soul id give them the option to replace the reaction damage with a fly speed when they're glowing, really commit to the super saiyan.
So, for the Kensei... You actually got it slightly wrong. This weapon-based subclass requires an attack be made with an unarmed strike... as your main action... not a bonus action. Its so stupid.
I was excited about the drunken master but then I read the description when it was in the unearthed arcana pages and was greatly disappointed. Now that it's in Xanathar's and nothing has changed, I'm still disappointed. I see no benefit by choosing it over "open hand". I would've atleast expected some sort of advantage to fighting while intoxicated.
i would say the drunken master can fight while intoxicated no problem while anyone else would be penalized (disadvantage on attacks,checks and some saves), the way of the open hand monk is like the battle master fighter for the monk "why play that when you can play this", the drunken master kind of has the mobile feat built into their flurry of blows for one thing, not every class or class archetype can be #1 but the drunken master is still great and has a lot of RP potential
Titan Bear Gaming yeah totes. His comics are pretty good though, I would recommend The Immortal Iron Fist series if you haven't already read it and you'll see what I mean.
I wonder what I'm doing wrong, but I've leveled a human monk from 2nd to now 7th level, and they always seems to be lacking in every department except mobility. The damage they deal is like putting a wizard into melee...it's dismal. And they supposedly get an extra attacks, but this is no different than literally any other class that has two functional arms. so no real advantage there. (except that YAY maybe another 1d4...because I'll slap you before the real fighters come in. Also the manuvers they get are almost always saved against because the DC is just too low. (12-13 avg...what wouldn't save against that?) At best they might be able to stun lock ONE opponent, while the real dps cleans up the rest of the room, because even if they do hit, they're really not going to hurt. lets say MAX damage if youre lucky enough to suc hit on all three attacks early on WOW a whopping 12 dmg!...really?...a warrior will do that with ONE attack, and then attack with their off hand. or a Ranger will do even more if the target is already injured. Monks seriously should be getting like 3 native attacks to start, and THEN maybe choose to add a little more tickle with a flurry for 5 attacks. and build from there. one fist..then off hand (like everybodyelse...then oh wait Martial arts master...extra unarmed strike...THEN bonus action...otherwise they nothing more than rodeo clowns who can get the big bads attention, and then get the fuck out of dodge) OR!!!...at least a mechanic that allows them to be combat aware...ok they do next to no damage, but they can try to dodge or parry all the time...something like that. Outside of this Monk 5e open hand is nothing more than a speedy wizard with no spells
Hey Apostle. Let's do some math right quick. (Also don't forget, Monk's are the only class that can make Unarmed attacks as bonus actions in conjunction with a weapon attack, so its not something Fighters can do for free). For levels 2 through 4: Your d4 Martial die is a bit frustrating, but you can at least use a Monk weapon for your main Attack. Lets assume we're building a Dex monk (+3 Dex mod) using a Shortsword (finesse). The Attack action will do d6+3 (E: 6.5 dmg), and you can always bonus action for Unarmed of d4+3 (E: 5.5 dmg). So your normal Expected damage is 12, on a double hit round. You can flurry to make this Attack+2 unarmed : 6.5 + 5.5+5.5 = 17.5 expected damage, on a triple hit round. Note you can flurry twice per short rest from your Ki pool, so you're doing this burst twice in a fight, and more at higher levels. Lets compare to the 2h Fighter at levels 2-4: Greatsword fighter with +3 Str mod will have an Attack action for 2d6+3 (E: 10 dmg), but he has no option for a bonus action attack (since Monks are the only ones who can make unarmed attacks as bonus actions). Even a Halberd fighter with the Polearm Master feat downclocks his damage die to 1d10+3 (E: 8.5 dmg) and can make a 1d4+3 (E 5.5 dmg) pommel strike as a bonus, for a total of 14 damage on a normal Attack round. With Action Surge, the Greatsword gets two attacks, for 10+10=20 Damage on one round, but he can only do this once per fight. With Action Surge, the Halberd gets two main attacks but still only 1 bonus, for 8.5+8.5+5.5 = 22.5 dmg, again only once per fight. If the 2h fighter takes Great Weapon Fighting, it raises his floor of expected damage, but lets average that to an increase of about 1 or 2 expected damage, not a huge impact. Lets compare to the Two-Weapon fighter at levels 2-4: Lets assume dual d8 weapons, and taking the Two Weapon Fighting style to add mod to bonus action swing. An Attack action plus bonus will net 1d8+3 (E 7.5 dmg) two times, so 15 expected damage on a double hit round. With Action Surge, the main attack is doubled, but still only one bonus action, for a total of 3 attacks. So 7.5+7.5+7.5 = 22.5 expected damage on a triple hit. Again, only once per fight. In short, for levels 2-4, your average Attack+Bonus is only 12 versus Fighter 10/14/15 depending on weapon selection. Middle-of the pack. With Flurry or Action Surge thrown in, your single round potential is 17.5 versus Fighter 20/22.5/22.5. Distinctly lower, but you get to repeat it a second time. So the 3 round total damage for each comes out to: Monk: Flurry 17.5 + Flurry 17.5 + Normal 12 = 47 on all hits. Greatsword Fighter: Action surge 20 + Normal 10 + Normal 10 = 40 on all hits. Halberd Fighter: Action surge 22.5 + Normal 14 + Normal 14 = 50.5 on all hits. Dual Wield Fighter: Action surge 22.5 + Normal 15 + Normal 15 = 52.5 on all hits. All said, you're within 10% on the 3 round comparison even for the weakest Martial damage die, which increases at higher levels, as does your Ki pool for the number of rounds you can Flurry. And the Save DC for the stunning fist is a little messed up, I'll admit. But thats just because it scales on Wisdom instead of your Str/Dex. I'd probably houserule that its the best stat of the mix to keep it consistent with battlemaster or caster spell DCs. Take a look and holler back.
Titan Bear Gaming Wow, I think I found out what is so frustrating. Basically every GM, we rotate between 3 guys, have been doing the bonus action wrong. So basically I had no real class specific ability because literally everyone was able to do what only I should have been able to do. (Face palm)
I suspected it might have been that. It was a subtlety to 5e that WOTC didnt anticipate well enough for players coming from prior rulesets, who might've been accustomed to bonus unarmed attacks. Here's the quote from the PHB Errata Combat section that clarifies -- anyone other than a monk can only make an unarmed strike IN PLACE OF a weapon attack. Melee Attacks (p. 195). The rule on unarmed strikes should read as follows: “Instead of using a weapon to make a melee weapon attack, you can use an unarmed strike: a punch, kick, head-butt, or similar forceful blow (none of which count as weapons). On a hit, an unarmed strike deals bludgeoning damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier. You are proficient with your unarmed strikes.” A notable exception is battlerager armor from sword coast adventure guide, but there specific beats general, as its explicitly stated that you may make unarmed attacks with the spiked armor. Cheers mate, hopefully your 3 GMs see eye to eye on this one.
Consistency with other ranged (and not thrown) weapons. Unless I'm mistaken, you'll only find Wisdom as the modifier on abilities and spells with limited uses per day / spell slots.
Sun Soul is garbage. :( 2 ki for burning hands? That's expensive! Half your ki for a "late to the party" Fireball that's both more avoidable and targets a worse save? Nooo way, man. Drunken Master is kinda "meh" and Kensai is solid for ranged monks and "thematic" (ie: meh) for melee monks, but Sun Soul is almost Way of the Elements bad!
This is what the point of a discussion channel is! Your opinion is wanted -- welcome to the family Sean! I think the power-scaling details of Burning Hands (and the sunbomb ability later) are impacted by the sheer strength that Sun Soul is automatically a ranged monk, with no Ki cost to activate going ranged. Obvious defensive advantages to range, as well as the ability to target different enemies with a volley of ranged attacks -- I think WOTC had their hands full with figuring out how to balance/tune this archetype. And you already know I agree on the Drunken Master and kensai statements :)
Thanks for the welcome! And don't get me wrong, I *want* to like Sun Soul... I just can't, lol. Radiant Sun Bolt is clearly the draw, but I think you're over hyping it. :) At levels 1 and 2, you can't do it yet. At levels 3 and 4, you can only do it once for very weak damage, or twice with 1 Ki point for 2x very weak damage. At levels 5-10 you upgrade from "very weak" to "manageable." A d6+Dex isn't exciting, but it's pretty par for the course for non-Kensai Monk weapons, and you can at least do it for both attacks, and a 3rd time for the cost of 1 Ki. It's also important to note that you can't combine this with Flurry of Blows - those attacks still have to be Unarmed Attacks (since the rule on RSB is "any of the attacks made as part of the Attack Action," which extra attacks from FoB are not. So you can't be *entirely* ranged... :( Aaand then the rest of the features just aren't good. Ki Points, Sorcerer Points, why are WotC so bad with "X Points?" lol Oh well...
Ah you know, there's a difference in english interpretation happening here. I've largely based my favoritism on interpreting the "you can spend 1 ki point to make the special attack twice as a bonus action" as the sun soul version of Flurry of Blows (ie, 3 attacks total consuming both Attack action and FoB bonus action). But I can suuuuuper understand reading that as 2 attacks total consuming action and bonus action. I've tweeted the WOTC staff about it, we'll see if they address it. Without it, its a big big blow to the viability of the archetype. Also FRIGGIN seconded on the X Points argument. Dammit guys. lol.
Alright, got confirmation from WOTC Staff that the 1 Ki point option acts like Flurry of Blows, bonus action granting 2 extra attacks. So at 3rd level, you can Action+(Bonus Action Ki point) for 3 laser beams, 1d4+Dex each like a normal monk. If it didnt otherwise deliver FoB like a normal monk I would've been concerned, but getting the mod bonus to each attack I think helps lessen the trouble of the d4 martial dice levels 1-4. Plus you get to act like a pissed off Vegeta (vegeta all the time?) and spam out hand lasers. :P
That's reassuring to know! Bad phrasing, WotC, tsk tsk. lol Now they just need to fix the rest of it. ;D lol Thoughts: Searing Arc Strike should, at minimum, start at a cost of 1. Searing Sun Burst needs to start at a higher damage than 2d6 (we're at 11th level after all), and should at the very least offer half-damage on a successful save, as Fireball. Sun Shield is 10 damage once per round at the cost of your Reaction... at level 17. Ugh, lol. Maybe if it worked more like a shield that was up for a set amount of time and dealt it's damage on every attack received, hit or miss, it would be closer to a reasonable capstone... but still probably falling below the mark.
Honestly I think the drunken master is kind of stupid? Like one channels the power of the sun, one is a weapon specialist and the other.... ah he's a big boozer! In my opinion it might actually be the worst archetype out of any 5e archetype for any class, at least in the thematic element... It just feels like a fairly poor homebrew.
I'd like to see a rework myself -- I think the mechanics and the theme don't quite connect. Also maybe rename from Drunken Master to something fluid/water themed.
definetly. Maybe some sort of Zen-style water master? Maybe throw in some sort of "Soothing Water" class feature that can heal allies or maybe mimic the effects of Neutralise Poison?
Not an actual boozer. That’s what the Performance proficiency is for. To look like you’re just some clumsy drunk. It’s a bit role play-dependent, but you definitely could use Performance to wade into a crowd, knock out a few minions, and leave them all wondering what just happened. Or you could take the drunken part out completely. Be more dance like in your movements. Now you specialize in Capoeira instead of Drunken Kung Fu. Ditch the Brewer’s supplies for a more appropriate tool proficiency, like maybe a musical instrument. Capoeira is a real world example. There are a number of dance/acrobatics/gymnastics styles that could work. “When she told that orc chieftain ‘I’ll tap dance on your grave,’ she wasn’t bluffing . . .”
@@owl2944 you need to watch some more Kung Fu movies my man. If you think a Drunken Master is just a booze bag, you're playing into their hands. Its all about misdirection (and a little booze to enhance the hard body training). I recommend watching True Legend, both to get a sense of what a Drunken Master can really do, but also for some ideas on how to ground that alcoholism in a tragic backstory.
This was a really dumb idea by WotC to make the Kensei a Monk subclass. Those 2 classes are completely different to each other both in theme and in their origin. The Monk was based from the fighting Shaolin monks in China while the Kensei was based from the wandering ronin/bushi swordsmen in Japan. The only thing in common with them is they're derived from eastern cultures. The Kensei is absolutely not a monk that focuses on weapons or even a series of weapons. The name itself literally translates to "Sword Saint" which focuses on mastery of a single bladed weapon. Sounds like they disregarded all of the Kensei's lore from previous editions and history and reinvented it to some half-ass subclass.
They strike me as less of the kensei we’re used to seeing and more like ...just, weapon monks. These kensei are guys who make RUclips channels with videos of them using throwing stars, 3-section staves, falchions, spears, nunchucks, and kusari-gama.
Which is great if your monk is gonna carry all that. But in my experiences with d&d, it’s 50/50 on whether a character just brings their primary weapons, or whether they remember to also bring a ranged weapon. Who needs 7 different nonmagical weapons to carry around? Hmm...is the rod of lordly might still a thing in 5e?
You forgot one of the Sun Soul powers. At level 5, your hair becomes blonde and gets extra spikey.
And you take 30 minutes of table time (note, not in game time, real world time) shouting at the table crouched in a straining position making constipated noses while your friends look on with worry.
I definitely agree with your thoughts on the Kensei, but a new player joined my table and - while I was explaining all the class and subclass options to him - he got extremely excited about the idea of being a monk with a trident and a bunch of other weird weapons. So I guess for some people, it's exactly what they want to play!
And thus the beauty of DnD prevails once more :)
Chro I’m personally looking forward to whenever I get the chance to play D&D, I’m going to be a Kensei monk with a Tetsubo as my main weapon. A polearm-spiked club hybrid seems quite fitting.
Who wouldn't want to be Li Mu Bai, with a Green Destiny sword. It's an awesome concept for a character.
I personally think the drunken master is fine. I have a dwarf character who is a professional brewer. He learned his skills in bar fights and instead of the normal dexterity and wisdom monk, he is a strength and constitution monk. His story is that he lost his tavern in a siege on where he lived. He swore to avenge is ancestors tavern and uses his skills in bar fights as his moral martial arts. Brute force instead of dexterity.
Great origin story Alex. I've always loved the strength monk. There was a monk fighting style back in Pathfinder that converted your Flurry of Blows damage into a single huge attack. Very fitting for a strength Monk. Check it out if curious, the section under 'Pummeling Style' for Monks. www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/style-feats/
Thank you. I'll look it up. I used to play pathfinder with a group at my school and enjoyed it. Still prefer 5e but I still have fun looking over pathfinder.
I loved my kensai Goblin cook who solved almost every problem with bacon and if he needed to fight he used his cooking utensils: a frying pan, a short bow made out of his bent ladle, and of course his spatula of disintegration.
I love it. You know, I keep running into these historical accounts of expedition parties and explorers who specifically included a Cook in their numbers. It should be a thing for DnD as well. Custom class time.
Spatula of Disintegration might just be the perfect weapon for any goblin ever lol
Multi class into barbarian for rage so you can roll play going kao ken or supersaiyan! Now your dnding right
What does the scouter say about his power level!!!
1009
Perfect race to rp a super saiyan is protector aasimar. In borne flight, wisdom modifier and you just start glowing with a heavy hitting first attack.
With "Drunken Master" does anyone else think of Rock Lee, from Naruto classic series.
Believe it!
Played a little bit of a Drunken Master and they do best when you really jump into a group and keep circling around and using your low level abilities.
Especially Redirect Attack has proven incredibly useful seeing how it automatically hits... combined with a dodge you can use it pretty reliably aswell!
Using a troll to smash a little goon or hit his friend with those giant claws is incredibly strong and a very nice feature!
The automatic hit on Redirect is pretty excellent. How often would you say you manage to use it, since it takes at least 2 enemies to enact?
For drunken master, I would grant the 17th level skill at 6th level and instead 17th level will allow you to us ki points to reduce damage of a hit by loosening your body and using ki to follow through the attacks. Don't now what kind of reduction, whether using martial arts dice, or hit dice, or set value based on level with a multiplier, or whether it scales with ki input, whether through dice or set amounts in a chart, but I feel it fits with mastering the drunk style in that even if you're hit, you can still keep fighting like nothing happened.
I'd support something like that. Something that helps channel the style a little more directly than written.
Combine it with Barbarian and you got even SS rage. Now you are only missing Kamehameha :/
The Kensei is little bit lacking on the 17th level. My DM changed it that if you miss with your weapon you can move aditional 10 feet to another target and basically redirect the attack (+reroll). So thematically you keep with the flow and precision that Kensei is about.
Sounds like a fun enhancement. How well did that fix things?
Titan Bear Gaming it did a little bit but compared to some other lvl 17 abilities it lacks the punch.
How would you make this ability better?
well, the sun soul's second ability can be considered a kamehameha if your DM is lenient enough for the visual effects of spells
I don't know about "Super Saiyan." You're at most, Goku at the very end of Dragon Ball.
"That was quite the punch you gave me! I should probably take off my training weights for this! Golly gee!"
Exactly, Ki control doesn't come with being a Saiyan(Race) or Super Saiyan(Transformation)
(It does come with Blue, but that's a form of ki control not the skill itself Note: Godlike)
Ki Control is the skill that you acquire(and perfect) on your road to those forms.(which are only accessible to the designated races.
Unless you're a Majin[Unnamed] then just go ham absorbing their powers for yourself/
Alt method: Cell type Biomachine; find a way to manifest their powers in you own biology. [Zerg-Style] create a swarm of mini-Me's and go conquer the universe, only you get to absorb power from your victims, if any of your minions do, they don't add to the power of later gens of soldiers.)
Noximus Jamaicanus Bruh, it's you! I've seen you on the Nerdarchy Marvel Superheroes Game! Nice to see you here
DracoFlyer Sup? Glad to see my communities collide.
I think this fits in with my halfling monk. Kinda like a krillen type character.
Definitely agree about the Kensei. Using Ki points to do what a lv 2 rogue can do at any time is not a selling point.
Yes but a monk gets a bunch of things they can do that a rogue can't, immunity to disease and poison, ending charmed or frightened effects as an action, slow fall, stunning strike, the ability to run up or along walls and jump long distances, evasion, proficiency in all saving throws (at 14th level), they need some sort of balance, look at the class and subclass as a whole, if you take the mobile feat the kensei monk can close distance deal pretty good damage and get out no problem and agile parry means if the can't they still have solid AC (if they dodge as a bonus action then even better)
I have been using a drunken monk and at first was not sure about it. I'm now at level 6 and have learned how to fight with him. Most battles I take little to no damage as I make my attacks then disengage and move to other foes that are attacking my party, then bounce back. Of course most of my party can take hits so they don't mind that I just deal damage to all foes and not just focus on one. How ever I do steal a lot of kills.
Sounds like you're playing it the way it was meant Michael!
My Sun Soul tiefling has been great fun to play. Nice to see the clarification here, I was finding the bonus action limitations rather annoying.
Good that it helped clarify. I'm a fan of the thematic element here, personally.
Spoke too soon, he just lost an eye to a rat swarm! Those beams are turning grey.
Having played a drunken master for a number of months, I can say it’s the most fun I’ve ever had in a character. The potential for role play is beautiful with a lenient DM.
I'm happy to hear that Elliot -- you aren't the first who's had glowing remarks about the archetype. What have you liked the most, both in terms of character abilities and role play wise?
I think you're missing the point way of the kensei. Be able to choose non-traditional monk weapons and give them the benefit of being monk is just kind of cool. One with the blade is definitely the best ability. Making it that you're weapons are considered magical is fantastic especially considering the your ranged weapons the benefit of being magical.
It certainly opens up play options! I’ve heard some great character concepts with Kensei recently.
I love the kensai monk it can bring life to weapons the you would not normally get to use such as whip and blowdart gun
There needs to be more call for whips in DnD. I think everyone would agree.
I like fantasy, Alex, but not that kind of fantasy. ^_-
I've actually had a ton of fun with my Ninja Tortle build going way of the Kensei. The combat abilities I feel are all pretty solid but I agree the Kensei capstone is a bit lackluster. I do feel that it makes up for it in the Role play aspect though. Playing a surfer dude tortle who's scary good with multiple kinds of weapons is a blast to play. Like I could kill you but then we couldn't be bro's you know bro?
But bro, then we couldn't bro, you know what I mean bro?
Sounds like fun Sully :) Rock that Kensei.
Welp wish me luck with my Firbolg drunken master monk.
Make it happen Dragon5556 :) Own that!
I'm having alot of fun with him. still strange to me considering it's my first monk character.
Tortle Kensei X/Barbarian 3-4 that focuses on STR is an amazing build.
17 AC from being a Tortle. 2 str and 1 wisdom is awesome.
Barbarian lvls enable:
- Rage for resistance and +flat dmg
- Danger Sense
- Reckless Attack
With an item like bracers of defense and kensei +2 ac, you have a respectable 21 AC
Use longsword as primary weapon, at lvl 6 take daggers as easily transportable ranged weapons.
Yes, it is unconventional. Yes, you lack Dex for stealth and saving throws (fixed by danger sense + evasion). But I love it regardless.
Want some roleplaying ideas? Look no further than Raphael from TMNT.
I’m making a drunken master just for the role playing potential
And you get to drink at the table and you have an excuse
Meta-thematic.
Thanks titan bear
Quick question that I want a second opinion. So for the Kensei’s Agile Parry ability it says "If you make an unarmed strike as part of the Attack action on your turn and are holding a kensei weapon , you can use it to defend yourself if it is a melee weapon. You gain a +2 bonus to AC until the start of your next turn , while the weapon is in your hand and you aren’t incapacitated." Would it count If I do my weapon attack and then bonus action unarmed strike or do I have to commit my whole action to just the unarmed strike?
At my own table I would say yes, the bonus action unarmed strike would trigger the bonus (even though I can understand being strict on the text).
I just can't stand when a character's class mechanics fight against itself. A kensai monk is unique among monks since it focuses on weapon use, it'd be self defeating if using those weapons then precluded one of your other abilities. The only concern is if the AC bonus is too high, but honestly I think monks need a smidge of help in 5e anyway. Let it run videogamefreered!
I know, late reply. This was the beef I had with this otherwise very good video. I gotta say I agree with the RAW. You must use an unarmed strike as part of your action, not bonus action. So before 5th level you can make two unarmed strikes, and at 5th and above at least one attack must be unarmed. If using a long sword, you give up an average of 2 damage (1d8 vs 1d4 at low levels) for a +2 BONUS to AC. Pretty nice if you ask me, which you didn't. :)
you have to make an unarmed strike as part of the attack action to be able to use agile parry (you essentially trade damage for defense by parrying strikes instead of attacking with the weapon) but the trade is is a little steep at this level IMO), at level 5 when you get extra attack and and unarmed strike damage dice upgrade it gets better then at level six you get one with the blade and can spend a ki point to deal extra damage equal to your martial arts damage dice with your kensei weapons which more than makes up for the trade off of damage for defense (if you roll well), if you take the mobile feat (which is amazing for any monk in general and i highly recommend for a Kensei monk) most of the time you can get in attack at full power and get out with no problem but if you get stuck or you want to go toe to toe for a bit you have a defensive option to fall back on, the way of the kensei's mechanics don't fight against itself, they scale, as you get stronger they get stronger, . . . . . and once you hit 17th level there isn't even a difference in damage you can deal with or without a weapon, only the type of damage you deal
@@ekturner3 unarmed strikes do not have to be just punches, you can elbow, knee, kick , head-butt etc..., so if you are using a longsword (or any versatile weapon) you can use it 2 handed so (for a longsword) the damage would be a D10 not a D8, the way of the Kensei says you can't use 2-handed weapons (like greatswords, greataxes, halberds and mauls etc...) not that you can't use a weapon 2 handed (like a longsword which has the versatile trait), otherwise a quarterstaff would become useless for all monks in general after level 5, the effect of agile parry starts off pretty weak (the AC boost is great but the trade off to damage is big, you go from a d10 to a d4) but once you get extra attack and your martial arts damage dice gets better and you get deft strike and later sharpen the blade, agile parry gets better and better until at 17th level when the damage dice for both unarmed and weapon strikes becomes the same.
@@thefracturedbutwhole5475
Didn't realize I could use my long sword with 2 hands and still make an unarmed strike (I did know it was more than just punching, however). Rereading the martial arts ability tells me I've been short changing my monk. Thanks.
Use strength as your main stat, take two levels of Barbarian, and pick up the Tavern Brawler feat, and then you've got a pretty good Drunken Master.
i was reading that and I thought super saiyan as well.. I'm playing a monk and way of open fist. after this part of the campaign is done since we are all new the DM said he will allow us to pick a different subclass if we don't like out subclass. I was only interested in the soul.. seemed like a different way then open palm... but i would like to death punch someone haha
Give it a try :)
I think my only complaint with the monk as a whole is the ki points. I think you should have at least your level times 2 for your ki amount, and maybe a ki charge feature earlier on?
So I found with some tinkering of my own the dunken master head been one of my favorite subclass for my players to use. It dose seem like they weren't sure what they were doing with it sadly.
What kind of tinkering did you do Beard Bear?
I bump the drunken frenzy to 6th or 11th lv based on the type of campaign or play style of the party member. I normaly spread out the # of attacks as they level up so they arent overpowered right away. The other level up either get bumped up or I let them take a feat or a boon if it at 17 level. I havent seen it played out that far but it seems to work well so far.
Sound like some good changes!
Glad you like it i do plan on revamping the hole thing to resemble jacki chan in drunken maater 3 .
Currently having a lot of fun with a tabaxi "way of the drunken master" monk. Atm at lvl 10 and combat already feels kinda broken... have up to 4 attacks (so 4 oppertunities to try and get a stun off), automatic disengage + 10ft movement, and using feline agility he can move 120ft even across liquids and/or vertical surfaces without the need of a dash action.
As a thought experimemt, imagine a team-up with a spellcaster who can cast haste. At lvl 10 he has 50ft unarmored movement which than gets doubled, take 2 dash actions and use step off the wind as a bonus, and use feline agility to double movement once more, thats 800 feet movement in one round. Battle maps have become a playground to this drunken cat.
You are looking at tipsy sway wrong you combine it with your drunken technique. You are right that this subclass is to make the monk slippery and able to hit multiple people. But remember other monks, and/or rogues have to use their bonus action to disengage so they don't take AoOPs. The drunken master activates flurry of blows hits multiple targets move to them as he needs to, and because of his drunken technique they get part of the "Mobile" feat for free.
To my point, Say there are multiple targets, you go in hit a couple, and then you activate flurry of blows and attack a few more all the while moving between them with free disengage (from drunken technique) on top of that you have high mobility which again lets you be able to move away from them with 10 extra feet of movement combined with your already higher movement. From here say, they have one archer that you can't reach at this point. you move towards them and then you fall prone. (falling as if you are drunk) Therefore giving the archer disadvantage on his attacks at you. Don't forget any time you land any one of those blows Ki points willing you can stun them.
In perfect setup you stun a few of the melees or all, move away from them and fall prone. Melee's don't get actions next turn and the archer has a harder time hitting you. your next turn you leapt to you feet for only 5 ft of movement, and then you move to right on top of the archer and bam you take them out. Archer down and/or stunned and your
ready for the next turn. Don't forget this is a party game. So the melees are getting pummeled by your team between your turns as well as the archer.
The Drunken master potentially goes from being a single target lock down to whole party crowd control machine.
Drunkard's Luck is basically a free cleanse at the expense of Ki on all that it affects. How many times is just that one attack that lands at the end of your turn or friends turn that gets the "how do you want to do this." from your GM. How many times does making the save let you live? How many times does making that check benefit the party?
Intoxicated Frenzy man this high level ability takes the example above and puts it on steroids. but yeah at 17 level is pretty far into a game.
The only thing i wish they would of added was a drunk mechanic where after years of mastery of this technique you know the perfect balance of being drunk that would give you resistance to damage. but to balance that i would say if you miss an attack you have to role a dice and if you fail the check you fall prone. but guess what "Leap to your feet." and your back up depending on how much movement you have used or haven't used.
I don't know if you've made an updated vid on this, but I hope you read this, or have had someone else mention these points. This class has much more potential than you gave it.
Thanks for posting!
I have a level 3 V Human Kensei with the Mobile feat. He is the ultimate skirmisher and can deal 1d10 with a Longsword. I plan on taking whip at 6, to give the equivalent of a shortsword with reach.
The kensei and the whip are a perfect combo. Report back with how you like it!
I really like the Kensai monk, I just wouldn’t go past level 12 in the class.
The benefits do drop off it seems. Honestly I feel that way about a lot of classes/archetypes in 5e. The game seems to have a lot more defined for pre-12.
Titan Bear Gaming I wouldn’t mind so much but Way of the long Death and Way of the Open Hand have really good level 17 abilities.
Good news it's an excuse to multiclass for more effects that sync with your weapons. I'd pick fighter battle master myself, especially with the fighting style bonuses and more maneuvers that help sell the Kensai a master of weapons and battle tactics.
@@jemm113 most fighting styles wouldn't work for a kensei (or any monk), monks don't use shields or armor (so protection and defense are out), monks can't use 2-handed weapons (so great weapon fighting is out) monks already get a bonus action attack or 2 if they use a ki point (so 2 weapon fighting is out), i guess a way of the Kensei could take archery but although the kensei can be a ranged combatant if they hang back and shoot from a distance a lot of their other abilities become nearly useless but you could make it work (i don't think it would be as good a ranged attacker as the fighter or ranger but you could do it)
The Fractured But Whole Actually a Kensei Monk can use a two handed weapon if the weapon is versatile (since it can’t have the heavy property but versatile weapons aren’t heavy). So u pick up a warhammer or longsword and do d10 right at lv 3 (y it’s the easiest monk subclass to multiclass class out of and which might be y it’s one of my faves since I love multiclassing lol)
Do you think the Drunken Master has to be a Drunkard? I want to reskin this Monastic Tradition to make a monk that flows in and out of combat as often as possible using the mechanics but I don't want to have to make him be a fool or an embarrassment to the party. The path seems the most elegant to me with ignoring disengagement, redirecting blows (Having a reason to use the dodge action) and at lvl 17 gracefully darting inbetween several enemies striking them all and escaping before anyone can land a blow.
To me at least seems like a more skilled purely physical combatant than the other paths as it doesn't focus on the spritualism or magic type effects. Can they be a physically excellent monk that isn't drunk or is the drunken unpredictability part of the Monastic Tradition in your opinion?
Totally -- a kinetic flow style is what the style leverages to be successful in combat, so I don't see why not! Heck it might even help cure the archetype of its thematic oddity.
I would say no. You don't get any thing special for drinking. So it could defiantly just be a technique or art form of fighting.
Re theming as a Buster Keatonesque flowing slapstick routine would make for really solid imagery that matches the mechanics as well.
Just kind of flailing around and it all works out.
Claude Painter-Wain I’m DMing a game set in the Elder Scrolls. My friend is playing a Khajiit Drunken Master who USED to be an alcoholic, then got into a fight with some racist a-holes and realized getting hit in the head while drunk hurts like hell, so she developed a style of redirecting attacks as opposed to straight blocking them. Eventually she quit drinking but took the style she made and taught others, eventually forming her own monastery.
All this to say that the thematic elements can vary so long as the mechanics support it 👍🏽
I've just tarted playing a Lizardfolk Drunken Master who has no idea what alcohol even is. iirc the actual style of fighting that influences this doesn't require the practitioner to be intoxicated. go for it!
So, as someone who knows Zui Quan (Drunken Fist), gotta say, I love the Drunken Fist Monk thematically. I agree that it is a little underwhelming, but really? I don't care. It's fun to play, so therefore I love it
Sometimes that's all it takes for a class/archetype to be worth it.
Titan Bear Gaming I wanna throw my clay gourd bottle at someone as an attack. Every encounter
Weapon proficiency: gourd bottle. Probably counts as a monk weapon.
Titan Bear Gaming I would hope so
If you took the Tavern Brawler feat, I’d let you use improvised weapons as Monk weapons. Only 1d4 anyway (but would scale with your Martial Arts die). It’s a feat tax, and you wouldn’t get all the Kensei goodies. But you surely could pull off a bunch of Jackie Chan-style combinations. And even mix in a grapple here and there as a bonus action.
Commenting way after the fact but I just wanted to chip in to say that I generally agree with your overall assessment of how good each are and that I feel that while Drunken Master seems too poorly done to do much with, Kensei was a neat idea though to use your words is only halfway there. Given that kensei *usually* translates as "sword saint"/"master swordsman" (and half the level based perks reference the blade) I think it would have been better if it focused more on blade abilities. Sharpen the Blade and Unerring Accuracy feel as if Sun Soul took up all the budget and the team behind it tried to make do with string and putty in a crafts contest.
tldr; this kensei should have spent more time studying the blade :V Given that Sun Soul is basically a bare handed shounen hero, why shouldn't Kensei be a blademaster shounen hero?
So I have to ask about the sun soul, if those blasts replace your monk attacks does that mean if I make a melee attack that it's a normal unarmed attack and not scaled up like other monks?
Think of it as an extension instead of a replacement. You can punch, kick, and blast with the best of them.
Titan Bear Gaming thanks for clearing it up for me, love your content
My problem is the Kensei is why do I need 3 more weapons at those later levels. Monks barely have to use weapons at all at higher levels. I know the build tried to change that but at its base class no archetype influence the kensei still is powerful unarmed
It is a bit odd, making the weapon selections, but I might understand it better now. A closer read of Kensei reminds me that any weapon selected for Kensei is then classified as a monk weapon on top of the normal monk weapon options. The point of interest being that you can then use Martial Arts damage in place of default weapon damage, so selecting the 3 extra weapon types is really just to help you fit whatever weapons you run into in-game into your Kensei powers (Parry/Shot/Deft Strike/Sharpen).
So you don't necessarily lose any power for wielding a weapon, and it grants you the extra Kensei options. Hit me back with thoughts mate.
Titan Bear Gaming it allows you access to martial weapons but by about 10th level the martial arts die become d8s and then later more so regardless of using a longsword or a dagger at level 11 you’d be dealing the same damage (martial arts dice) with either. It’s just why I don’t understand the new weapons at 11th and 17th other than flare.
Without access to the reach property we are rolling d8s at those higher levels regardless of what weapon you are using. At lower levels it’s great to have martial and range weapons for monk weapons for those initial hits outside the unarmed strikes but after level 10 it’s mechanically pointless for the melee weapons.
I think I would probably house-rule this one to negate the "anything without heavy or special" qualifiers on choosing your Kensai weapon. I don't see it trodding so badly on the fighter/barb/paladin territory that we shouldn't do it, and it helps differentiate the archetype a bit better, given your concerns above. Without the house-rule, it does beg the question whats the point of the extra weapon selections. Unless you really really like War Picks, then go ham baby.
Titan Bear Gaming that’s what i was thinking too. I mean there are many two-handed and reach “monk” weapons. And yes I don’t think i most the archetypes kind of make it so you can step on other classes territories
I totally see Kensei here as that iconic scene from Flying Tiger Hidden Dragon wielding a long polearm and doing spinny flippy, blade jumping tricks. It kind of surprises me that the text doesnt by default support this -- i'm totally down for it homebrew.
i love my goblin sun soul monk!!!
I want to be a Kensei monk and declare a Tetsubo as my melee weapon.
Im thinking of doing a fire genasi drunken monk, produce flame with a hangover... like a drunken uncle Iroh.
Honestly Ive always felt that the way of the sun soul is very lacking, not 4 elements bad but still hardly worth sticking with Monk all the way to level 17, the Searing Sunburst doesnt save for half damage so you can dump a bunch of ki into a more avoidable fireball and the Sun Shield just feels pointless especially with the Monk having better uses for their reaction in their deflect missiles ability. If one of my players were interested in the Sun Soul id give them the option to replace the reaction damage with a fly speed when they're glowing, really commit to the super saiyan.
I'd be 100% for that. I do worry a tidbit about the aoe damage too, personally. But kamehameha lasers are far too exciting lol.
So, for the Kensei...
You actually got it slightly wrong.
This weapon-based subclass requires an attack be made with an unarmed strike... as your main action... not a bonus action.
Its so stupid.
I was excited about the drunken master but then I read the description when it was in the unearthed arcana pages and was greatly disappointed. Now that it's in Xanathar's and nothing has changed, I'm still disappointed. I see no benefit by choosing it over "open hand". I would've atleast expected some sort of advantage to fighting while intoxicated.
I'm with you Keith, especially on the comparison to Open Hand. It needs a little something extra to help convey the Drunken Master thematic element.
i would say the drunken master can fight while intoxicated no problem while anyone else would be penalized (disadvantage on attacks,checks and some saves), the way of the open hand monk is like the battle master fighter for the monk "why play that when you can play this", the drunken master kind of has the mobile feat built into their flurry of blows for one thing, not every class or class archetype can be #1 but the drunken master is still great and has a lot of RP potential
I feel like Open Hand and Kensei monks were inspired by Iron Fist.
All of Monk is heavily inspired by Kung Fu films, probably less so actual martial arts.
By that I meant the comics, not the show.
Oof, yea lets not go there.
Titan Bear Gaming yeah totes. His comics are pretty good though, I would recommend The Immortal Iron Fist series if you haven't already read it and you'll see what I mean.
I wonder what I'm doing wrong, but I've leveled a human monk from 2nd to now 7th level, and they always seems to be lacking in every department except mobility.
The damage they deal is like putting a wizard into melee...it's dismal.
And they supposedly get an extra attacks, but this is no different than literally any other class that has two functional arms. so no real advantage there. (except that YAY maybe another 1d4...because I'll slap you before the real fighters come in.
Also the manuvers they get are almost always saved against because the DC is just too low. (12-13 avg...what wouldn't save against that?)
At best they might be able to stun lock ONE opponent, while the real dps cleans up the rest of the room, because even if they do hit, they're really not going to hurt. lets say MAX damage if youre lucky enough to suc hit on all three attacks early on WOW a whopping 12 dmg!...really?...a warrior will do that with ONE attack, and then attack with their off hand. or a Ranger will do even more if the target is already injured.
Monks seriously should be getting like 3 native attacks to start, and THEN maybe choose to add a little more tickle with a flurry for 5 attacks. and build from there.
one fist..then off hand (like everybodyelse...then oh wait Martial arts master...extra unarmed strike...THEN bonus action...otherwise they nothing more than rodeo clowns who can get the big bads attention, and then get the fuck out of dodge)
OR!!!...at least a mechanic that allows them to be combat aware...ok they do next to no damage, but they can try to dodge or parry all the time...something like that. Outside of this Monk 5e open hand is nothing more than a speedy wizard with no spells
Hey Apostle. Let's do some math right quick. (Also don't forget, Monk's are the only class that can make Unarmed attacks as bonus actions in conjunction with a weapon attack, so its not something Fighters can do for free).
For levels 2 through 4: Your d4 Martial die is a bit frustrating, but you can at least use a Monk weapon for your main Attack. Lets assume we're building a Dex monk (+3 Dex mod) using a Shortsword (finesse). The Attack action will do d6+3 (E: 6.5 dmg), and you can always bonus action for Unarmed of d4+3 (E: 5.5 dmg). So your normal Expected damage is 12, on a double hit round. You can flurry to make this Attack+2 unarmed : 6.5 + 5.5+5.5 = 17.5 expected damage, on a triple hit round.
Note you can flurry twice per short rest from your Ki pool, so you're doing this burst twice in a fight, and more at higher levels.
Lets compare to the 2h Fighter at levels 2-4: Greatsword fighter with +3 Str mod will have an Attack action for 2d6+3 (E: 10 dmg), but he has no option for a bonus action attack (since Monks are the only ones who can make unarmed attacks as bonus actions). Even a Halberd fighter with the Polearm Master feat downclocks his damage die to 1d10+3 (E: 8.5 dmg) and can make a 1d4+3 (E 5.5 dmg) pommel strike as a bonus, for a total of 14 damage on a normal Attack round.
With Action Surge, the Greatsword gets two attacks, for 10+10=20 Damage on one round, but he can only do this once per fight.
With Action Surge, the Halberd gets two main attacks but still only 1 bonus, for 8.5+8.5+5.5 = 22.5 dmg, again only once per fight.
If the 2h fighter takes Great Weapon Fighting, it raises his floor of expected damage, but lets average that to an increase of about 1 or 2 expected damage, not a huge impact.
Lets compare to the Two-Weapon fighter at levels 2-4: Lets assume dual d8 weapons, and taking the Two Weapon Fighting style to add mod to bonus action swing. An Attack action plus bonus will net 1d8+3 (E 7.5 dmg) two times, so 15 expected damage on a double hit round.
With Action Surge, the main attack is doubled, but still only one bonus action, for a total of 3 attacks. So 7.5+7.5+7.5 = 22.5 expected damage on a triple hit. Again, only once per fight.
In short, for levels 2-4, your average Attack+Bonus is only 12 versus Fighter 10/14/15 depending on weapon selection. Middle-of the pack. With Flurry or Action Surge thrown in, your single round potential is 17.5 versus Fighter 20/22.5/22.5. Distinctly lower, but you get to repeat it a second time. So the 3 round total damage for each comes out to:
Monk: Flurry 17.5 + Flurry 17.5 + Normal 12 = 47 on all hits.
Greatsword Fighter: Action surge 20 + Normal 10 + Normal 10 = 40 on all hits.
Halberd Fighter: Action surge 22.5 + Normal 14 + Normal 14 = 50.5 on all hits.
Dual Wield Fighter: Action surge 22.5 + Normal 15 + Normal 15 = 52.5 on all hits.
All said, you're within 10% on the 3 round comparison even for the weakest Martial damage die, which increases at higher levels, as does your Ki pool for the number of rounds you can Flurry.
And the Save DC for the stunning fist is a little messed up, I'll admit. But thats just because it scales on Wisdom instead of your Str/Dex. I'd probably houserule that its the best stat of the mix to keep it consistent with battlemaster or caster spell DCs.
Take a look and holler back.
Titan Bear Gaming
Wow, I think I found out what is so frustrating.
Basically every GM, we rotate between 3 guys, have been doing the bonus action wrong.
So basically I had no real class specific ability because literally everyone was able to do what only I should have been able to do.
(Face palm)
I suspected it might have been that. It was a subtlety to 5e that WOTC didnt anticipate well enough for players coming from prior rulesets, who might've been accustomed to bonus unarmed attacks. Here's the quote from the PHB Errata Combat section that clarifies -- anyone other than a monk can only make an unarmed strike IN PLACE OF a weapon attack.
Melee Attacks (p. 195). The rule on
unarmed strikes should read as follows:
“Instead of using a weapon to make a
melee weapon attack, you can use an unarmed
strike: a punch, kick, head-butt, or
similar forceful blow (none of which count
as weapons). On a hit, an unarmed strike
deals bludgeoning damage equal to 1 +
your Strength modifier. You are proficient
with your unarmed strikes.”
A notable exception is battlerager armor from sword coast adventure guide, but there specific beats general, as its explicitly stated that you may make unarmed attacks with the spiked armor. Cheers mate, hopefully your 3 GMs see eye to eye on this one.
Why we add dex to sun beam instead of wisdom
Consistency with other ranged (and not thrown) weapons.
Unless I'm mistaken, you'll only find Wisdom as the modifier on abilities and spells with limited uses per day / spell slots.
Titan Bear Gaming throwing sun balls is a spell like ability imo
Kengei
Sun Soul is garbage. :(
2 ki for burning hands? That's expensive! Half your ki for a "late to the party" Fireball that's both more avoidable and targets a worse save? Nooo way, man.
Drunken Master is kinda "meh" and Kensai is solid for ranged monks and "thematic" (ie: meh) for melee monks, but Sun Soul is almost Way of the Elements bad!
This is what the point of a discussion channel is! Your opinion is wanted -- welcome to the family Sean!
I think the power-scaling details of Burning Hands (and the sunbomb ability later) are impacted by the sheer strength that Sun Soul is automatically a ranged monk, with no Ki cost to activate going ranged. Obvious defensive advantages to range, as well as the ability to target different enemies with a volley of ranged attacks -- I think WOTC had their hands full with figuring out how to balance/tune this archetype.
And you already know I agree on the Drunken Master and kensai statements :)
Thanks for the welcome!
And don't get me wrong, I *want* to like Sun Soul... I just can't, lol.
Radiant Sun Bolt is clearly the draw, but I think you're over hyping it. :)
At levels 1 and 2, you can't do it yet. At levels 3 and 4, you can only do it once for very weak damage, or twice with 1 Ki point for 2x very weak damage. At levels 5-10 you upgrade from "very weak" to "manageable." A d6+Dex isn't exciting, but it's pretty par for the course for non-Kensai Monk weapons, and you can at least do it for both attacks, and a 3rd time for the cost of 1 Ki.
It's also important to note that you can't combine this with Flurry of Blows - those attacks still have to be Unarmed Attacks (since the rule on RSB is "any of the attacks made as part of the Attack Action," which extra attacks from FoB are not. So you can't be *entirely* ranged... :(
Aaand then the rest of the features just aren't good. Ki Points, Sorcerer Points, why are WotC so bad with "X Points?" lol Oh well...
Ah you know, there's a difference in english interpretation happening here. I've largely based my favoritism on interpreting the "you can spend 1 ki point to make the special attack twice as a bonus action" as the sun soul version of Flurry of Blows (ie, 3 attacks total consuming both Attack action and FoB bonus action). But I can suuuuuper understand reading that as 2 attacks total consuming action and bonus action. I've tweeted the WOTC staff about it, we'll see if they address it.
Without it, its a big big blow to the viability of the archetype. Also FRIGGIN seconded on the X Points argument. Dammit guys. lol.
Alright, got confirmation from WOTC Staff that the 1 Ki point option acts like Flurry of Blows, bonus action granting 2 extra attacks. So at 3rd level, you can Action+(Bonus Action Ki point) for 3 laser beams, 1d4+Dex each like a normal monk.
If it didnt otherwise deliver FoB like a normal monk I would've been concerned, but getting the mod bonus to each attack I think helps lessen the trouble of the d4 martial dice levels 1-4.
Plus you get to act like a pissed off Vegeta (vegeta all the time?) and spam out hand lasers. :P
That's reassuring to know! Bad phrasing, WotC, tsk tsk. lol
Now they just need to fix the rest of it. ;D lol
Thoughts:
Searing Arc Strike should, at minimum, start at a cost of 1.
Searing Sun Burst needs to start at a higher damage than 2d6 (we're at 11th level after all), and should at the very least offer half-damage on a successful save, as Fireball.
Sun Shield is 10 damage once per round at the cost of your Reaction... at level 17. Ugh, lol. Maybe if it worked more like a shield that was up for a set amount of time and dealt it's damage on every attack received, hit or miss, it would be closer to a reasonable capstone... but still probably falling below the mark.
Honestly I think the drunken master is kind of stupid? Like one channels the power of the sun, one is a weapon specialist and the other.... ah he's a big boozer! In my opinion it might actually be the worst archetype out of any 5e archetype for any class, at least in the thematic element... It just feels like a fairly poor homebrew.
I'd like to see a rework myself -- I think the mechanics and the theme don't quite connect. Also maybe rename from Drunken Master to something fluid/water themed.
definetly. Maybe some sort of Zen-style water master? Maybe throw in some sort of "Soothing Water" class feature that can heal allies or maybe mimic the effects of Neutralise Poison?
Not an actual boozer. That’s what the Performance proficiency is for. To look like you’re just some clumsy drunk. It’s a bit role play-dependent, but you definitely could use Performance to wade into a crowd, knock out a few minions, and leave them all wondering what just happened.
Or you could take the drunken part out completely. Be more dance like in your movements. Now you specialize in Capoeira instead of Drunken Kung Fu. Ditch the Brewer’s supplies for a more appropriate tool proficiency, like maybe a musical instrument.
Capoeira is a real world example. There are a number of dance/acrobatics/gymnastics styles that could work.
“When she told that orc chieftain ‘I’ll tap dance on your grave,’ she wasn’t bluffing . . .”
@@owl2944 you need to watch some more Kung Fu movies my man. If you think a Drunken Master is just a booze bag, you're playing into their hands. Its all about misdirection (and a little booze to enhance the hard body training). I recommend watching True Legend, both to get a sense of what a Drunken Master can really do, but also for some ideas on how to ground that alcoholism in a tragic backstory.
This was a really dumb idea by WotC to make the Kensei a Monk subclass. Those 2 classes are completely different to each other both in theme and in their origin. The Monk was based from the fighting Shaolin monks in China while the Kensei was based from the wandering ronin/bushi swordsmen in Japan. The only thing in common with them is they're derived from eastern cultures. The Kensei is absolutely not a monk that focuses on weapons or even a series of weapons. The name itself literally translates to "Sword Saint" which focuses on mastery of a single bladed weapon. Sounds like they disregarded all of the Kensei's lore from previous editions and history and reinvented it to some half-ass subclass.
They strike me as less of the kensei we’re used to seeing and more like ...just, weapon monks. These kensei are guys who make RUclips channels with videos of them using throwing stars, 3-section staves, falchions, spears, nunchucks, and kusari-gama.
Which is great if your monk is gonna carry all that. But in my experiences with d&d, it’s 50/50 on whether a character just brings their primary weapons, or whether they remember to also bring a ranged weapon. Who needs 7 different nonmagical weapons to carry around? Hmm...is the rod of lordly might still a thing in 5e?
So... reading from the book is what passes for content nowadays?