I know this is an old vid man and you have gotten a lot of hate on it. Why not make an updated version and take some of the comments and run with them. I see that you understand now the measuring mistakes that were made. It would be cool to see the FGGM 168 and 175's deconstructed again but this time deconstruct 5 or 10 of each and show the ranges and averages. I have already done this a couple times (years apart) with the 175's and they are extremally consistent. Anyways just a thought since this vid keeps getting views and comments.
you make enough videos, you realize you get a lot of hate regardless... so gotta learn to ignore most of it unless it is a starting point of a legitimate conversation. i think often times people watch a video and tend to feel as though the one who made the video thinks they are the ultimate authority or whatever... often that is not the case (some creators do have this attitude). are their variables? yes of course. do things change over time? yes of course. does ammunition vary from lot to lot, brand to brand and firearm to firearm? yes of course. most of the hate comes from the lack of peopel to realie that my way and your way may often not align and it is because of variables not necessarily because anyone is wrong. as for making an update, well, RUclips is not friendly to reloading stuff as they now consider it showing how to make ammo, so i tend to stay away from it all now days... except for forums, private conversations, etc. and just so you know, often times as a video ages, we don't see comments or replies... was actually surprised to see this in my studio. appreciate the comment.
it might not be RUclips, it might be me. i have many multiple comment filters set up. main reason is i wanna keep my stuff, even comments on videos, as clean as possible. among other reasons, because i have decades of involvement in youth shooting sports and want those kiddos (as well as their parents) to feel comfortable. it has nothing to do with you, or anyone else who comments. if you ever have issues getting everything through, thing about the words you are using (especially curses) and just reword it. the sub is apprecaited and hopefully the new content is worth sticking around for 🤣😂 i like to think i have improved over the years anyway.
oh, since we are talking comments... like i said earlier, we seldom see comments on old videos or replies after the first comments are made. this is due to a lot of different factors BUT if you ever have a question or need to reach me, feel free to hit me up with a DM or PM on social media somewhere. like i said, you are likely not being ignored here, we just don't know you have commented.
For federal gold medal match 175 gr I came very close to an exact replica load data using sierra 175 match king, FC brass, and 42.0 gr's of imr 4064. A side note this load is .3 below sierra load data max load and has slightly higher velocity than the gold medal match factory ammo.
my pleasure, don't hesitate to hit me up if you have questions, i may not know all the answers but can at least point you in the right direction to find them
well, now i don't know about that but thanks! suprised the youtube has not pulled this one yet. gotta be sorta careful with what you upload now days, unfortunately
The hollow point is not for stabilization, it’s simply a result of the extrusion process by which the bullets are made. And that difference in length is not because it’s match ammo, that simply the tips being very fractionally different from bullet to bullet, again as a result of the extrusion process by which Sierra makes their match hp bullets. That’s according to Sierra directly.
thanks for the additional information, old video, certainly lacking in some data... yep, you are correct that the open tip is byproduct of the manufacturing process for sure
if you measure a couple different rounds from that box, you will notice they all have slightly different charge weights of powder, probable due to the charge dropper at the factory, as we all know extruded powders are difficult at best through a drum style powder measure/dropper
that is a valid point but i would say that match grade ammunition tends to be a whole lot better with consistency than other stuff. and, major manufacturers typically have a different product line with tigher tolerances and monitoring for match ammo. now, you are correct, that hear, with these powders than can easily be some deviation but i can tell you straight up for a fact that stuff like Eley Match 22LR ammo, that stuff get a lot number change anytime they touch anything through the procdess and if you deconstruct any of that stuff, measure or heck, just shoot it, it big time shows, there is little to no deviation. i once measured the rim thickness (which can vary wildley in 22LR) on 50 boxes (same lot) of Eley Match and i kid you not, there was zero, yeah, zero deviation. i was blown away. then over the years making events and making contacts for the channel i have spoken with Eley (as well as other manufacturers) and heard about the processes they go through. now, all this said, you did comment on an old video, probably evident by the frankly embarassing production value and more importantly style of boxes on this ammo. it appears from, again, what i am told from folks at federal, the recipe has changed, so all bets are probably off here unless you find some of these exact boxes. great point and great addition to the conversation here, thanks.
Very,very good video,thanks,i reload samethink to federal gold medal macth,my powder is 4064 43.7 gr my grouping is .375 in to .630 i,m very happy,rifle savage 10fcp-k with a savage muzzle brake.
I just recently deconstructed 168 FGMM and found 40.5gr of a powder that looks exactly the same, under a jewelry loop, as Reloader 15. However that powder charge weight would be too low for that powder. 40.5 seems to fall into the IMR 3031 charge weights I’ve seen posted on numerous sites.
here is the issue with this particular video.... things change over time and companies do not always use the same powders. the composition of powders change over time too. so at this point, who knows, best we can do it try and figure it out based on what we have in front of us. historically, federal has used proprietary powders for the most part that are not really available commercially. so when we duplicate, best we can do it get them close as far as ballistics.... which is what this load is. i can fire any of the current (which is old stock) gold medeal match i have along with my recipe and you can't tell which are which on the paper.
@@bfdadventure exactly and i have spoken with them time and time again, they are not free.... at least with me, on any information when it comes to the lot numbers and powders used
Can confirm, 168gr FGMM bought just last week and lot number (assuming this is the lot number?) D143U21 contains 40.5gr of powder that looks exactly like Reloder 15.
Thank you sir. I just loaded from 40.5 to 42.1 but haven't run them yet I feel more comfortable knowing your at 43.0 and the tear down produced 43.5. I did not however find any GMM primers so I have federals standard LR primers. I have 5 left from my last 3 boxes I kept them specifically for tear down but until I ran what I believed to be lower charges I didn't want to disassemble them.
you can still get great results from standard primers, just takes a little tweaking around. i have some loads using nosler green tips that friends use to take whitetail deer at 700+
@@CloverTac Working up round that's consistent enough to make anyone with the skill to claim large game humanely at that distance is impressive. I am super new to hand loading and safety is my chief concern at the moment. I bought 168 smks and hornadys 168s and enough to run 500. I haven't even seen a Nosler projectile in person. I'll keep reading and watching videos from guys like yourself and hopefully I come up with an acceptable results. I have a question if you have any experience with 762 brass. Can I run it through the 308 full resizing die and safely use it. I have a few hundred once fired Federal m80 149grn 762 cases from when I first bought the rifle that I can't bring myself to throw away.
@@mikejackson6591 the answer to your question is yes, you can. 7.62 is not typically loaded quite as hot as far as pressure compared to 308 but i have never seen any type of issue result from the brass being interchanged. on the nosler thing, yeah, super awesome projectiles, especially for hunting. check out Shooters Pro Shop for some great deals there. i have been loading for decades, just take it slow at first, learn the basics, get a feel for it all. it won't be long until you are far more comfortable. about the only thing you can do wrong to get you in trouble is drastically over or under charge. the load i referred to was worked up over the course of nearly a year and assuming the hunter does their job with shot placement, it isn't much of an issue. heck, that is at any distance though. i have witnessed tons unethical shots taken at less than 100 yards.
@@CloverTac Thanks again. I've heard of guys and seen reels of footage of making some insane shots on animals with the new rounds. I even bought my 1st 6.5 this year with the intent of hunting out past where I typically would. I'm hoping my shooting skill set combined with attempts to load My own ammo will increase my "ethical range of shooting" Well put by the way and your point on unethical shots at 100 yards and less is definitely not lost on me. It actually sent me back through several things I've seen done in the name of hunting. My 6.5 likes the 140 + projectiles the best and I can shoot .5 moa out farther than I ever thought I would. I shot several elk in southern Colorado with 150 grain 06 rounds and was thinking 143 and 147 eld rounds should be adequate. Im sure I'll learn to load it but with the length and breadth of 7 decades of military service, hunting and the sheer amount data the 308 seemed the place to start. Thanks for taking time out of your day to answer questions for a guy very new to loading. Your point on the time to work up good data is well taken also. I'm sure I've got a lot to learn. Your advice is appreciated in earnest.
@@mikejackson6591 i dont own a 6.5 yet but have shot and loaded for many... excellent round. as for ethical shot practice, look up effective range targets, if you pick some up, tell david i said hey
Close to my sub MOA .308 loading which is 168gr hpbt, 43.5gr Varget or H335, Win prime and brass, at 2.805 OAL... I just love .308 for consistency....and have you noticed that .223 is the little brother twin of the .308.....funny how that works! G>
What a local reloading company told me was load to velocity. They said they have to test out each batch of powder because it varies and that the pound jugs even though they are same as large batch in name they are significantly different. So powder charges are probably different in factory loads with different batches of powder.
yup, some truth to that for sure, you should really tune to the rifle just using the factor ammo as a base. this video is old, so not sure that the load data i have worked up for a duplicate applies to the modern versions of the FGGM... but doesn't matter because that is what is most accurate in my Savage Model 10 regardless. thanks for sharing.
I’ve been using IMR 4064 with the 169 SMKs. .6 MOA out of a AR-10 with Kreiger barrel. I think AR-COMP and 8208 would do well also but it’s impossible to find.
that is a big time different rifle that what i am using with my pet load in 308... but yeah, powder (and other reloading stuff too) is very hard to find right now.
I know G.M.M. is very popular but it's never been that accurate in anyof the (4) 308's I've owned. I don't mean it was bad but I've never had a rifle that favored it. I'm waiting for my Remington 783 16.5" HB-T to come & and I'll try it in that maybe I'll see why so many people live it 🤷🏻♂️
well first, i cannot speak to what the new stuff does (you did after all dig up an old video here) 😂🤣 i believe federal has changed up several of the things they use for the contstruction, such as Sierra projectiles. second, you are spot on that what certain firearms like, can differ. i have even seen the same models vary from time to time. and probably third is, if you are not doing match things, then expecting match ammo to really make the difference is a bit silly (no offense here because i do not know you) but moderately good shooters probably would not see much difference when it comes to match stuff BUT when thousands of an inch in group size counts, well, that is where it all shines the best. guess what i am saying with that is there is no magic substitute for experience, practice and super sound fundamentals. i have seen guys (and gals) that excel in those areas absolutely wreck shop in competition and be literally outgunned by thousands upon thousands of dollars in equipment, ammo, etc. the point here was that my Savage Model 10 loves GMM and this was a duplicate i developed that would produce the same results as GMM, which of course saves a ton of money.
well, when it comes to hunting, different people are going to have different opinions. mine is that an open tip match is not optimal. for that task i prefer a projectile that will expand, more expansion means more surface area, more surface area means more energy transferred to the intended target.
no expansion with a match grade hollow point. those cavities are not for expansion, designed more for flight stabilization. match ammo is also expensive because it uses high end primers (in this case gold medal match primers) so lack of expansion and price make it really not worth it in the end. so just not optimal. this is a GREAT question by the way!
this one is a little Hornady scale, which I still have around. i used to have an little RCBS digital scale but after many years it quit on me. i currently use a Horandy Lock n Load Auto Charge the most. i keep a RCBS 1010 mechanical scale around too, just in case.
@@mannycali334 yes, the one i am using on my bench in the video is a Hornady scale. i am honestly not sure that they make it anymore. but, if you are looking at scales, i would be more than happy to talk more and give you a few suggestions. since youtube has an issue with certain links, wink, wink, may be better to talk via email media@clovertac.com.
O that makes sense. Yea I'm new to reloading and was looking for a small digital scale but all the ones I see on Amazon even reloading brands at some point have 7% to 11% negative reviews and I know powder is not something you would want to miss calculate. So I'm looking for a small affordable reloading scale.
M118lr was originally loaded heavy with RL15 and 175gr MK Too hot for M14 sniper rifles in Iraq so they lowered the powder charge. Then they gave the contract to Federal and they used a newer designed military brass and the same powder they used in Gold Medal match which is IMR 4064 and the Fed 210M primer @ 41.745. It performed well in both the semi and bolt guns. The M852 used IMR 4895..
thanks for the info. not sure if you just randomly happened across this video or follow regularly, these older videos often still get random comments. if you are not aware, be sure to check out some of the new stuff, particularly the live shows.
i don't notice anything there, maybe change the resolution and see what it does. if you are viewing with auto resolution i guess it could flicker on ya... it is bright green and the white below it doesn't really help either. thanks for watching
CloverTac its not the video. The video is great. Sorry I should have described the issue better. The specific shade of green messes with my eyes. Although this is the first time the color on the carton has done it in a video. I don't know if I'm borderline color blind of that shade of green or what. I took a box lid to the eye doc and they were not concerned. I was asking to see if anyone else has the same problem.
ah, i follow now. some people are sensitive to greens, some others are sensitive to reds, pretty common. that is one reason they make multiple color sights and lasers now days. .. i say now days, i have an older military grade trijicon sight that is actually orange.
CloverTac that shade of green is the only color that bothers me. Instead of flickering, its more like looking through a device that makes a picture look 3 dimensional but it still alternates from green to white quickly. Anyway, thanks for your videos. They have helped to inspire me to get into precision shooting again. I currently have a Remington 5R Milspec from 2005 with a Leupold Mark 4 LRT 6-24 and a Surgeon action and bottom metal, Bartlein 6.5 barrel and a McMillan adjustable A5 stock that I need assembled into a complete rifle chambered in 6.5 x 47 Lapua and everything but a barrel to assemble a Noveske N6 308 AR10. I got the Surgeon and Noveske about 6 years ago but never got around to finishing either project before my focus moved to another hobby. Its a good time to complete those projects and polish up on my shooting. Its really hard to find a good shooting range local to me here in eastern Ky that i can stretch a rifle out. Both areas that I used to shoot have been sold and repurposed. So now I'm looking for a good riflesmith and shooting range.
Might try to get in touch with maybe Jacob over at Beachin Tactical, he is in KY, he may know of something. I have a buddy that has a 6.5 Lapua... that is an awesome freaking cartridge.
so, i have been loading these copycats for years and years, this video was made to sorta give an idea of how i obtained the data. i spend many days playing around with many things, measuring, weighing, etc years ago working it all up. this is meant to be a quick, basic video talking about what i use to create copycats... just a deconstruction video. that said, yeah, agree, if you are looking to work something up for youself based off of factory ammo, make sure you are using a larger sample size for sure, work up ladder loads, test through a chrono, test on paper, etc... it is a tedious process but worth it in the end for those who do reload.
Yessir! It’s a good video, gave me some good ideas for sure! Currently I am using a 175 Sierra matchking load using 43.5 grs of Vihtavuori N150, fed 210, Lapua brass. Coal of 2.833. Absolutely drives tacks. At 100 it’s about .3, at 200 .5” still, and at 300 it only opens up to about .77 of an inch. Just crushes. Don’t know why I didn’t try Vihtavuori powders sooner. I have also used a lot of RL15 with great success and Ramshot Tac as my go to powder for hunting loads. But the Vihtavuori has them all beat so far! Thank you for all of your videos, I didn’t realize this one was so old, I have been going through and watching them all! 👍🏼
@@Niobium23 yeah, gotta figure out how to do a little more like this eventually, with the current policy, about the only option is to put them over on FULL30. vit is good stuff and that is a great load you have worked out and a 175 should do well even out well past 300. i have some 175 hunting loads that friends have used to take deer as far out as 800. thanks for hanging out and watching, over 1,400 videos up on the channel and still cranking them out when i can. feel free to drop comments or reach out to me through another means if you have questions or just wanna chat, always up for a firearm related conversation.
so do you require that info or are you just trying to troll on an old video that for whatever reason RUclips seems to like to push instead of my new stuff? if it is the former, i would be happy to help you with that via email contact. if the later, good job, you got a response from me, your ex lax laden cookie is in the mail LOL
worth noting too, since this was made, Federal has changed things up and i have not dissected one to even attempt a duplication... no need, i shoot one hole groups at 300 with this load
Ever since the Advent of RUclips there are so many people making videos that don't really know what they're doing. They're giving incorrect information to beginners that will adopt these methods and instructions and their reloading and shooting practices. If you want to shoot accurately you have to learn the correct way from the beginning because ultimately you'll have to undo everything you learned and then learn the correct ways which will take a lot longer. Best advice is to learn from real benchrest shooters that can put 5 bullets in what looks like the same hole at hundred yards. Their scores can be three or four thousands off from a 5-shot group. You never measure a cartridge overall length from the tip of the bullet you only do that when you're shooting from magazines. You measure a cartridge overall length from the ogive of the bullet to the head of the case where it touches the bolt.
not exactly sure what you are getting at but putting 5 rounds in the same hole at 100 yards is not terribly difficult now days at all... or maybe i am just always surrounded by plenty capable people. that said, if you are getting at the point of equipment not taking the place of fundamentals... i totally agree. as a youth shooting sports instructor for decades, i have always stressed that point. i have seen many with high end equipment beat in competition be lesser equipment, why, skill level when it comes to fundamentals. lesser equipment leave little room for bad habits and errors to develop.
@@CloverTac I was referring to the proper methods of case preparation and load development. In the final analysis no matter how perfect and precise your rifle is and how accurate and perfect your loads are it's up to the shooter. Again I remind you but I was referring to the mechanics of reloading and measuring not the practice of shooting at the range. It's a matter of luck to shoot five rounds through the same hole and be off by a few thousands of an inch not considering the wind effects and is why you need Flags to know what the wind is doing. It just doesn't happen. Better bench rester for 50 years and have yet to see it happen by luck alone.
@@Marrio49 we don't completely agree or disagree here either one here, sounds like maybe you should be making videos what with your experiences you are obviously not a doofus... if you would like to step into the arena and just need help, let me know, you might have some good value to provide to viewers out there
misspoke on a 3 year old video, so sue me, you knew exactly what i meant and if not it was right there on the video for you to look at. thanks for the comment. i love the stuff you are doing over on your channel, aces man.
Clover Tac I have read that the orignal powder that was loaded by Federal in M852 was 39.0 Gr's IMR-3031 with LC brass, Federal 210 Match LRM with the Sierra 168 Gr BTHP. Then they changed the brass to Federal commercial brass and increased the powder charge to 39.5 Gr's of IMR-3031. Having worked a lot with IMR-3031 iam pretty sure that 43.6 Gr's would fill a 308 case, now 43.6 Gr's of IMR-4064 in a 308 case is very possible.
while they may have used something very similar to commercial 3031, i don't know of any manufacturer that uses actual commercial powders. now that said, i have never toured a Federal factory. i do wonder then the change happened to federal brass, hmm. i have GMM Federal brass here that is at least 3 decades old, maybe older. and i know for sure it is because it all came in and i still have the original boxes. all that said, you are correct in that 3031 is a suitable powder for 308 in many applications. we either have to take someone's word, have special equipment or just make a best educated guess on a lot of things when we try to duplicate. in this instance, at least for me, it works. good intel, thanks
yep, doesn't surprise me, did some research several years back and found that BH did not actually manufacture any components. hey, not sure if you follow any of the live stuff but i do them and actually over on the Ghost Tactical channel now live. :)
If by some chance you want to get rid of some of that Federal GMM brass that you have had for decades, I will be more than glad to take some off your hands
not really rude just honest, used this powder in 30-06 , military pull down even. with sierra 168 hpbt match I'm getting 3 shot nickel size clover leaf groups at 100 yds with my 1903 remington, original 1943 barrel, I have a couple off the rack 308 s that do just as well
@@nugene57 so what you are saying is that i should use 4895? yeah well, i have, it does not produce the same results that i get with FGGM in my savage model 10 FCP-HS. this load does. how could you possibly know what my rifle does or does not do with certain powder? you can't, hence, rude
@@nugene57 you are also talking 100 yards which is funny, i am shooting this rifle out past 1,000 and regularly past 300, given a good day and no wind, it will cloverleaf at 500 easily with this load
This is the most ridiculous video ever. The ammo is .005 longer because it's match ammo? WTF. You're not even measuring the "overall length" correctly if you want to get an accurate comparable measurement.
i never was an AOL customer, not sure what you are talking about but will assume this is just a good troll.... thanks for digging up and old video and commenting, really helps keep this stuff alive and well
@@CloverTac no, not trolling at all, this video showed up in my search. Cartridge Overall length is what I was referring to, my bad lol. But, like I said if you want to make comparable ammo you should measure using an accurate method. The .005 extra length isn't because it's match ammo lol.
@@CloverTac and my whole point is it's unfortunate that people who know so little pass along the wrong information instead of keeping their mouth shut.
i think maybe something was lost in translation somewhere, who knows. your whole point is you wanna judge and be hateful rather than actually have a conversation, which is trolling. guess me and my 1700+ videos are not for you because you will likely find some fault with all of them, have a good one and you can click a little button so RUclips does not show you anymore of my stuff. would hate for you to actually have to watch something and then engage in conversation. signed... life long firearm owner and reloader... so there ya go, get lost 🤣😂
I know this is an old vid man and you have gotten a lot of hate on it. Why not make an updated version and take some of the comments and run with them. I see that you understand now the measuring mistakes that were made. It would be cool to see the FGGM 168 and 175's deconstructed again but this time deconstruct 5 or 10 of each and show the ranges and averages. I have already done this a couple times (years apart) with the 175's and they are extremally consistent. Anyways just a thought since this vid keeps getting views and comments.
you make enough videos, you realize you get a lot of hate regardless... so gotta learn to ignore most of it unless it is a starting point of a legitimate conversation. i think often times people watch a video and tend to feel as though the one who made the video thinks they are the ultimate authority or whatever... often that is not the case (some creators do have this attitude). are their variables? yes of course. do things change over time? yes of course. does ammunition vary from lot to lot, brand to brand and firearm to firearm? yes of course. most of the hate comes from the lack of peopel to realie that my way and your way may often not align and it is because of variables not necessarily because anyone is wrong. as for making an update, well, RUclips is not friendly to reloading stuff as they now consider it showing how to make ammo, so i tend to stay away from it all now days... except for forums, private conversations, etc. and just so you know, often times as a video ages, we don't see comments or replies... was actually surprised to see this in my studio. appreciate the comment.
@@CloverTac Post was edited and lost...
it might not be RUclips, it might be me. i have many multiple comment filters set up. main reason is i wanna keep my stuff, even comments on videos, as clean as possible. among other reasons, because i have decades of involvement in youth shooting sports and want those kiddos (as well as their parents) to feel comfortable. it has nothing to do with you, or anyone else who comments. if you ever have issues getting everything through, thing about the words you are using (especially curses) and just reword it. the sub is apprecaited and hopefully the new content is worth sticking around for 🤣😂 i like to think i have improved over the years anyway.
oh, since we are talking comments... like i said earlier, we seldom see comments on old videos or replies after the first comments are made. this is due to a lot of different factors BUT if you ever have a question or need to reach me, feel free to hit me up with a DM or PM on social media somewhere. like i said, you are likely not being ignored here, we just don't know you have commented.
For federal gold medal match 175 gr I came very close to an exact replica load data using sierra 175 match king, FC brass, and 42.0 gr's of imr 4064. A side note this load is .3 below sierra load data max load and has slightly higher velocity than the gold medal match factory ammo.
I am new to reloading and 308 is what I shoot in both savage scout and howa m1500 ACP. I have learned alot from you, many thanks!!!💯🤙👍
my pleasure, don't hesitate to hit me up if you have questions, i may not know all the answers but can at least point you in the right direction to find them
Great Vids YOU R THE BIG DOG on the bench ...Thanks so much for your time and attention to detail.
well, now i don't know about that but thanks! suprised the youtube has not pulled this one yet. gotta be sorta careful with what you upload now days, unfortunately
The hollow point is not for stabilization, it’s simply a result of the extrusion process by which the bullets are made. And that difference in length is not because it’s match ammo, that simply the tips being very fractionally different from bullet to bullet, again as a result of the extrusion process by which Sierra makes their match hp bullets. That’s according to Sierra directly.
thanks for the additional information, old video, certainly lacking in some data... yep, you are correct that the open tip is byproduct of the manufacturing process for sure
Both you yahoo's are wrong. The hollow point or meplat is formed intentionally to aid in aerodynamics.
@@andy347495
Look up what the meplat is, before opening your mouth you idiot.
if you measure a couple different rounds from that box, you will notice they all have slightly different charge weights of powder, probable due to the charge dropper at the factory, as we all know extruded powders are difficult at best through a drum style powder measure/dropper
that is a valid point but i would say that match grade ammunition tends to be a whole lot better with consistency than other stuff. and, major manufacturers typically have a different product line with tigher tolerances and monitoring for match ammo. now, you are correct, that hear, with these powders than can easily be some deviation but i can tell you straight up for a fact that stuff like Eley Match 22LR ammo, that stuff get a lot number change anytime they touch anything through the procdess and if you deconstruct any of that stuff, measure or heck, just shoot it, it big time shows, there is little to no deviation. i once measured the rim thickness (which can vary wildley in 22LR) on 50 boxes (same lot) of Eley Match and i kid you not, there was zero, yeah, zero deviation. i was blown away. then over the years making events and making contacts for the channel i have spoken with Eley (as well as other manufacturers) and heard about the processes they go through. now, all this said, you did comment on an old video, probably evident by the frankly embarassing production value and more importantly style of boxes on this ammo. it appears from, again, what i am told from folks at federal, the recipe has changed, so all bets are probably off here unless you find some of these exact boxes. great point and great addition to the conversation here, thanks.
Very,very good video,thanks,i reload samethink to federal gold medal macth,my powder is 4064 43.7 gr my grouping is .375 in to .630 i,m very happy,rifle savage 10fcp-k with a savage muzzle brake.
ah, aside from maybe custom work, basically the same as my 10FCP-HS
I like the XBR powder but it does seem to run higher pressures
I just recently deconstructed 168 FGMM and found 40.5gr of a powder that looks exactly the same, under a jewelry loop, as Reloader 15. However that powder charge weight would be too low for that powder. 40.5 seems to fall into the IMR 3031 charge weights I’ve seen posted on numerous sites.
here is the issue with this particular video.... things change over time and companies do not always use the same powders. the composition of powders change over time too. so at this point, who knows, best we can do it try and figure it out based on what we have in front of us. historically, federal has used proprietary powders for the most part that are not really available commercially. so when we duplicate, best we can do it get them close as far as ballistics.... which is what this load is. i can fire any of the current (which is old stock) gold medeal match i have along with my recipe and you can't tell which are which on the paper.
CloverTac agreed. I’m sure that’s why lot numbers were created. I think Federal has used a few different powders over the years.
@@bfdadventure exactly and i have spoken with them time and time again, they are not free.... at least with me, on any information when it comes to the lot numbers and powders used
Can confirm, 168gr FGMM bought just last week and lot number (assuming this is the lot number?) D143U21 contains 40.5gr of powder that looks exactly like Reloder 15.
Rifle Shooter Channel but you can’t replicate the same velocity with 40.5gr RL15. IMR 3031 would most likely be the one.
Thank you sir. I just loaded from 40.5 to 42.1 but haven't run them yet I feel more comfortable knowing your at 43.0 and the tear down produced 43.5. I did not however find any GMM primers so I have federals standard LR primers. I have 5 left from my last 3 boxes I kept them specifically for tear down but until I ran what I believed to be lower charges I didn't want to disassemble them.
you can still get great results from standard primers, just takes a little tweaking around. i have some loads using nosler green tips that friends use to take whitetail deer at 700+
@@CloverTac
Working up round that's consistent enough to make anyone with the skill to claim large game humanely at that distance is impressive.
I am super new to hand loading and safety is my chief concern at the moment. I bought 168 smks and hornadys 168s and enough to run 500. I haven't even seen a Nosler projectile in person. I'll keep reading and watching videos from guys like yourself and hopefully I come up with an acceptable results. I have a question if you have any experience with 762 brass. Can I run it through the 308 full resizing die and safely use it. I have a few hundred once fired Federal m80 149grn 762 cases from when I first bought the rifle that I can't bring myself to throw away.
@@mikejackson6591 the answer to your question is yes, you can. 7.62 is not typically loaded quite as hot as far as pressure compared to 308 but i have never seen any type of issue result from the brass being interchanged. on the nosler thing, yeah, super awesome projectiles, especially for hunting. check out Shooters Pro Shop for some great deals there. i have been loading for decades, just take it slow at first, learn the basics, get a feel for it all. it won't be long until you are far more comfortable. about the only thing you can do wrong to get you in trouble is drastically over or under charge. the load i referred to was worked up over the course of nearly a year and assuming the hunter does their job with shot placement, it isn't much of an issue. heck, that is at any distance though. i have witnessed tons unethical shots taken at less than 100 yards.
@@CloverTac
Thanks again. I've heard of guys and seen reels of footage of making some insane shots on animals with the new rounds. I even bought my 1st 6.5 this year with the intent of hunting out past where I typically would.
I'm hoping my shooting skill set combined with attempts to load My own ammo will increase my "ethical range of shooting" Well put by the way and your point on unethical shots at 100 yards and less is definitely not lost on me. It actually sent me back through several things I've seen done in the name of hunting. My 6.5 likes the 140 + projectiles the best and I can shoot .5 moa out farther than I ever thought I would. I shot several elk in southern Colorado with 150 grain 06 rounds and was thinking 143 and 147 eld rounds should be adequate. Im sure I'll learn to load it but with the length and breadth of 7 decades of military service, hunting and the sheer amount data the 308 seemed the place to start. Thanks for taking time out of your day to answer questions for a guy very new to loading. Your point on the time to work up good data is well taken also. I'm sure I've got a lot to learn. Your advice is appreciated in earnest.
@@mikejackson6591 i dont own a 6.5 yet but have shot and loaded for many... excellent round. as for ethical shot practice, look up effective range targets, if you pick some up, tell david i said hey
Close to my sub MOA .308 loading which is 168gr hpbt, 43.5gr Varget or H335, Win prime and brass, at 2.805 OAL... I just love .308 for consistency....and have you noticed that .223 is the little brother twin of the .308.....funny how that works! G>
yes it is although i don't do a whole lot with 223 anymore... really wanna give the 224 valkyrie a try though
What a local reloading company told me was load to velocity. They said they have to test out each batch of powder because it varies and that the pound jugs even though they are same as large batch in name they are significantly different. So powder charges are probably different in factory loads with different batches of powder.
yup, some truth to that for sure, you should really tune to the rifle just using the factor ammo as a base. this video is old, so not sure that the load data i have worked up for a duplicate applies to the modern versions of the FGGM... but doesn't matter because that is what is most accurate in my Savage Model 10 regardless. thanks for sharing.
I’ve been using IMR 4064 with the 169 SMKs. .6 MOA out of a AR-10 with Kreiger barrel. I think AR-COMP and 8208 would do well also but it’s impossible to find.
that is a big time different rifle that what i am using with my pet load in 308... but yeah, powder (and other reloading stuff too) is very hard to find right now.
I know G.M.M. is very popular but it's never been that accurate in anyof the (4) 308's I've owned. I don't mean it was bad but I've never had a rifle that favored it. I'm waiting for my Remington 783 16.5" HB-T to come & and I'll try it in that maybe I'll see why so many people live it 🤷🏻♂️
well first, i cannot speak to what the new stuff does (you did after all dig up an old video here) 😂🤣 i believe federal has changed up several of the things they use for the contstruction, such as Sierra projectiles. second, you are spot on that what certain firearms like, can differ. i have even seen the same models vary from time to time. and probably third is, if you are not doing match things, then expecting match ammo to really make the difference is a bit silly (no offense here because i do not know you) but moderately good shooters probably would not see much difference when it comes to match stuff BUT when thousands of an inch in group size counts, well, that is where it all shines the best. guess what i am saying with that is there is no magic substitute for experience, practice and super sound fundamentals. i have seen guys (and gals) that excel in those areas absolutely wreck shop in competition and be literally outgunned by thousands upon thousands of dollars in equipment, ammo, etc. the point here was that my Savage Model 10 loves GMM and this was a duplicate i developed that would produce the same results as GMM, which of course saves a ton of money.
I thought you could use these projectiles for hunting?
well, when it comes to hunting, different people are going to have different opinions. mine is that an open tip match is not optimal. for that task i prefer a projectile that will expand, more expansion means more surface area, more surface area means more energy transferred to the intended target.
I use Alliant AR Comp powder....works great in my AR-10 rifle
yup, i can see how that would work... AR-10 is a bit different than my Savage bolt, so that load probably would not be the same for me
I shoot 47gr of h4350 under 175smk’s out of a dd .308 and put 7 in .75”…16” ar-10
Awesome video. Thank you.👍
cbc 308 168 gr sniper bthp appears to be a clone of the M852 OTM sniper round on sale $585 1,000 rounds shipped same price as m80 ball.
That is interesting and I do not doubt it. I pretty much load all my 308 now days.
Why is it not a hunting or self defense ammo?
no expansion with a match grade hollow point. those cavities are not for expansion, designed more for flight stabilization. match ammo is also expensive because it uses high end primers (in this case gold medal match primers) so lack of expansion and price make it really not worth it in the end. so just not optimal. this is a GREAT question by the way!
What kind of digital scale you use
this one is a little Hornady scale, which I still have around. i used to have an little RCBS digital scale but after many years it quit on me. i currently use a Horandy Lock n Load Auto Charge the most. i keep a RCBS 1010 mechanical scale around too, just in case.
@@CloverTac sorry should of been more specific I meant the one on your work bench on the video.
@@mannycali334 yes, the one i am using on my bench in the video is a Hornady scale. i am honestly not sure that they make it anymore. but, if you are looking at scales, i would be more than happy to talk more and give you a few suggestions. since youtube has an issue with certain links, wink, wink, may be better to talk via email media@clovertac.com.
O that makes sense. Yea I'm new to reloading and was looking for a small digital scale but all the ones I see on Amazon even reloading brands at some point have 7% to 11% negative reviews and I know powder is not something you would want to miss calculate. So I'm looking for a small affordable reloading scale.
M118lr was originally loaded heavy with RL15 and 175gr MK
Too hot for M14 sniper rifles in Iraq so they lowered the powder charge.
Then they gave the contract to Federal and they used a newer designed military brass and the same powder they used in Gold Medal match which is IMR 4064 and the Fed 210M primer @ 41.745.
It performed well in both the semi and bolt guns. The M852 used IMR 4895..
thanks for the info. not sure if you just randomly happened across this video or follow regularly, these older videos often still get random comments. if you are not aware, be sure to check out some of the new stuff, particularly the live shows.
For clarity, with the IMR 4064 and 210 primer are you still using the 175 MK?
Joseph Iacovelli
I prefer the Berger OTM 175 gr with the same load data as with the MK
@@trumpie5399
175 OTM Berger Tactical most excellent if you need to extend the range past 600 yards.
@@redteam9881 Your original comment says 41.745... is that grains of 4064?
I don’t know why I never thought of that. Thank you brother.
most welcome, appreciate the comment
Does the shade of green the Sierra is wrote in on the GMM box mess with anyone else eyes? It almost flickers white to me and drives me nuts.
i don't notice anything there, maybe change the resolution and see what it does. if you are viewing with auto resolution i guess it could flicker on ya... it is bright green and the white below it doesn't really help either. thanks for watching
CloverTac its not the video. The video is great. Sorry I should have described the issue better. The specific shade of green messes with my eyes. Although this is the first time the color on the carton has done it in a video. I don't know if I'm borderline color blind of that shade of green or what. I took a box lid to the eye doc and they were not concerned. I was asking to see if anyone else has the same problem.
ah, i follow now. some people are sensitive to greens, some others are sensitive to reds, pretty common. that is one reason they make multiple color sights and lasers now days. .. i say now days, i have an older military grade trijicon sight that is actually orange.
CloverTac that shade of green is the only color that bothers me. Instead of flickering, its more like looking through a device that makes a picture look 3 dimensional but it still alternates from green to white quickly.
Anyway, thanks for your videos. They have helped to inspire me to get into precision shooting again. I currently have a Remington 5R Milspec from 2005 with a Leupold Mark 4 LRT 6-24 and a Surgeon action and bottom metal, Bartlein 6.5 barrel and a McMillan adjustable A5 stock that I need assembled into a complete rifle chambered in 6.5 x 47 Lapua and everything but a barrel to assemble a Noveske N6 308 AR10. I got the Surgeon and Noveske about 6 years ago but never got around to finishing either project before my focus moved to another hobby. Its a good time to complete those projects and polish up on my shooting. Its really hard to find a good shooting range local to me here in eastern Ky that i can stretch a rifle out. Both areas that I used to shoot have been sold and repurposed. So now I'm looking for a good riflesmith and shooting range.
Might try to get in touch with maybe Jacob over at Beachin Tactical, he is in KY, he may know of something. I have a buddy that has a 6.5 Lapua... that is an awesome freaking cartridge.
Sir 42.0 grains of reloader 15 is best ! 2.810 is best COAL for this round !!
for your rifle, yeah, not going to argue, it probably is
great job bro, I am learning a lot with u haha
Thank you, I do have a few things I need to work on for the next video in this series, mainly on content and delivery.
Should have weighed and averaged 10 of each, and measured and averaged 10.
so, i have been loading these copycats for years and years, this video was made to sorta give an idea of how i obtained the data. i spend many days playing around with many things, measuring, weighing, etc years ago working it all up. this is meant to be a quick, basic video talking about what i use to create copycats... just a deconstruction video. that said, yeah, agree, if you are looking to work something up for youself based off of factory ammo, make sure you are using a larger sample size for sure, work up ladder loads, test through a chrono, test on paper, etc... it is a tedious process but worth it in the end for those who do reload.
Yessir! It’s a good video, gave me some good ideas for sure! Currently I am using a 175 Sierra matchking load using 43.5 grs of Vihtavuori N150, fed 210, Lapua brass. Coal of 2.833. Absolutely drives tacks. At 100 it’s about .3, at 200 .5” still, and at 300 it only opens up to about .77 of an inch. Just crushes. Don’t know why I didn’t try Vihtavuori powders sooner. I have also used a lot of RL15 with great success and Ramshot Tac as my go to powder for hunting loads. But the Vihtavuori has them all beat so far! Thank you for all of your videos, I didn’t realize this one was so old, I have been going through and watching them all! 👍🏼
@@Niobium23 yeah, gotta figure out how to do a little more like this eventually, with the current policy, about the only option is to put them over on FULL30. vit is good stuff and that is a great load you have worked out and a 175 should do well even out well past 300. i have some 175 hunting loads that friends have used to take deer as far out as 800. thanks for hanging out and watching, over 1,400 videos up on the channel and still cranking them out when i can. feel free to drop comments or reach out to me through another means if you have questions or just wanna chat, always up for a firearm related conversation.
You forgot to measure the neck of the round for any crimp and the cartridge length.
so do you require that info or are you just trying to troll on an old video that for whatever reason RUclips seems to like to push instead of my new stuff? if it is the former, i would be happy to help you with that via email contact. if the later, good job, you got a response from me, your ex lax laden cookie is in the mail LOL
worth noting too, since this was made, Federal has changed things up and i have not dissected one to even attempt a duplication... no need, i shoot one hole groups at 300 with this load
Ever since the Advent of RUclips there are so many people making videos that don't really know what they're doing. They're giving incorrect information to beginners that will adopt these methods and instructions and their reloading and shooting practices. If you want to shoot accurately you have to learn the correct way from the beginning because ultimately you'll have to undo everything you learned and then learn the correct ways which will take a lot longer. Best advice is to learn from real benchrest shooters that can put 5 bullets in what looks like the same hole at hundred yards. Their scores can be three or four thousands off from a 5-shot group. You never measure a cartridge overall length from the tip of the bullet you only do that when you're shooting from magazines. You measure a cartridge overall length from the ogive of the bullet to the head of the case where it touches the bolt.
not exactly sure what you are getting at but putting 5 rounds in the same hole at 100 yards is not terribly difficult now days at all... or maybe i am just always surrounded by plenty capable people. that said, if you are getting at the point of equipment not taking the place of fundamentals... i totally agree. as a youth shooting sports instructor for decades, i have always stressed that point. i have seen many with high end equipment beat in competition be lesser equipment, why, skill level when it comes to fundamentals. lesser equipment leave little room for bad habits and errors to develop.
@@CloverTac I was referring to the proper methods of case preparation and load development. In the final analysis no matter how perfect and precise your rifle is and how accurate and perfect your loads are it's up to the shooter. Again I remind you but I was referring to the mechanics of reloading and measuring not the practice of shooting at the range. It's a matter of luck to shoot five rounds through the same hole and be off by a few thousands of an inch not considering the wind effects and is why you need Flags to know what the wind is doing. It just doesn't happen. Better bench rester for 50 years and have yet to see it happen by luck alone.
@@Marrio49 we don't completely agree or disagree here either one here, sounds like maybe you should be making videos what with your experiences you are obviously not a doofus... if you would like to step into the arena and just need help, let me know, you might have some good value to provide to viewers out there
I wonder if federal is really using 168 gr SMK’s as I measured my sierra’s 168 smk’s and mines measure 1.215”
now days? i can't say, when this was made? yeah boxes even say it.... sierra and or federal either one could change anything at any time
You can't have two decimal points! 2.800 Point 5? No such thing. 2.8005/10,000.
misspoke on a 3 year old video, so sue me, you knew exactly what i meant and if not it was right there on the video for you to look at. thanks for the comment. i love the stuff you are doing over on your channel, aces man.
Clover Tac I have read that the orignal powder that was loaded by Federal in M852 was 39.0 Gr's IMR-3031 with LC brass, Federal 210 Match LRM with the Sierra 168 Gr BTHP. Then they changed the brass to Federal commercial brass and increased the powder charge to 39.5 Gr's of IMR-3031. Having worked a lot with IMR-3031 iam pretty sure that 43.6 Gr's would fill a 308 case, now 43.6 Gr's of IMR-4064 in a 308 case is very possible.
while they may have used something very similar to commercial 3031, i don't know of any manufacturer that uses actual commercial powders. now that said, i have never toured a Federal factory. i do wonder then the change happened to federal brass, hmm. i have GMM Federal brass here that is at least 3 decades old, maybe older. and i know for sure it is because it all came in and i still have the original boxes. all that said, you are correct in that 3031 is a suitable powder for 308 in many applications. we either have to take someone's word, have special equipment or just make a best educated guess on a lot of things when we try to duplicate. in this instance, at least for me, it works. good intel, thanks
yep, doesn't surprise me, did some research several years back and found that BH did not actually manufacture any components. hey, not sure if you follow any of the live stuff but i do them and actually over on the Ghost Tactical channel now live. :)
You bring out some great points. Rumor has it that Black Hills uses Winchester Brass and primers, along with RL-15 and Sierra 168 and 175 MatchKings.
yeah, my homework back when lead me to Sierra, for sure
If by some chance you want to get rid of some of that Federal GMM brass that you have had for decades, I will be more than glad to take some off your hands
if you haven't had good luck with IMR 4895 you need a new hobby
well, aren't you just a little rude... thanks for the comment i suppose
not really rude just honest, used this powder in 30-06 , military pull down even. with sierra 168 hpbt match I'm getting 3 shot nickel size clover leaf groups at 100 yds with my 1903 remington, original 1943 barrel, I have a couple off the rack 308 s that do just as well
@@nugene57 so what you are saying is that i should use 4895? yeah well, i have, it does not produce the same results that i get with FGGM in my savage model 10 FCP-HS. this load does. how could you possibly know what my rifle does or does not do with certain powder? you can't, hence, rude
@@nugene57 you are also talking 100 yards which is funny, i am shooting this rifle out past 1,000 and regularly past 300, given a good day and no wind, it will cloverleaf at 500 easily with this load
@@CloverTac 1000 yards ?, that is impressive ! I can't see that far let alone walk that far to check the target.
This is the most ridiculous video ever. The ammo is .005 longer because it's match ammo? WTF. You're not even measuring the "overall length" correctly if you want to get an accurate comparable measurement.
i never was an AOL customer, not sure what you are talking about but will assume this is just a good troll.... thanks for digging up and old video and commenting, really helps keep this stuff alive and well
@@CloverTac no, not trolling at all, this video showed up in my search. Cartridge Overall length is what I was referring to, my bad lol. But, like I said if you want to make comparable ammo you should measure using an accurate method. The .005 extra length isn't because it's match ammo lol.
@@CloverTac and my whole point is it's unfortunate that people who know so little pass along the wrong information instead of keeping their mouth shut.
i think maybe something was lost in translation somewhere, who knows. your whole point is you wanna judge and be hateful rather than actually have a conversation, which is trolling. guess me and my 1700+ videos are not for you because you will likely find some fault with all of them, have a good one and you can click a little button so RUclips does not show you anymore of my stuff. would hate for you to actually have to watch something and then engage in conversation. signed... life long firearm owner and reloader... so there ya go, get lost 🤣😂