@@zebzero1348Exactly! It's so weird! One of the greatest anime/manga and basically nobody talks about it anymore. People still talk about Death Note and Evangelion, why is there such a silence around FMA?
"The soul could be seen as a reference to the brain. It is so vast and complex that even attempting to transfer all memories into a new body or brain is an insanely difficult task. This is because hormones, neuron patterns, and other factors would need to be changed and adapted to successfully accomplish a soul/mind transplantation.
@@darvog7160 that’s absolutely possible! FMA pulls from a LOT of historical alchemical theories and… to be frank, they’re not very consistent because of the inherent secrecy of Middle Ages alchemy. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@darvog7160 Ed transplanted Al's soul when they were kids. Barry the chopper exists. The creation of a philosopher's stone is just soul transplantation and petrification on a big scale
Nah. Mainly because they can actually bind souls. Al got bound to a suit of armor and is still able to think and function with no brain. That must be a soul that retains his personality.
FMA takes place way earlier than the 1940s,it's actually closer in equivalency to the 1910s,so it's safe to say that they would know even less which would make human transmutation all the more impossible...
@@mrslasher1064 which means that either way… we’re a loooooong way off from gene sequencing or comprehensive brain scans. Thanks for watching and commenting!
if i remember right, Bradley is supposed to be the dimensional equivalent to Hitler. And in conqueror of shambala the beerhouse thing hasn't happened yet, so it was definitely pre-1930s.
But Human Transmutation isn't impossible. What's impossible is returning to life someone whose soul has already passed on into their afterlife. At the end of the series, when Ed used Human Transmutation to return Alphonse it worked, since Alphonse hadn't passed on and was waiting. He paid an equivalent price to Al's soul, his own Gate (which while we can all claim a soul has no equivalent value, "Truth" clearly disagrees), everything went right, Al is back. Perfectly successful Human Transmutation used to bring someone back to life
@@julianogodoy964 yes absolutely! It’s always difficult to account for how Truth affects an alchemist, but yeah I can’t deny that human transmutation obviously DOES occur. However, it is still a major taboo for a reason: it almost never works and has disastrous side effects. My argument here is that, before we can ever consider the worth of a soul, we have to wrestle with the complexity of the body. ‘Impossible’ may just be a bit of clickbait, but it’s a word that the alchemists use too, so I don’t feel too bad lol. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@julianogodoy964 At the end of the series Ed used his Gate to pay for Al's BODY that was stored inside Ed's Gate all along. Al's soul was stuck in his armor, which Ed retrieved from his Gate by paying for it with one of his arms when they first did human transmutation.
@@singularitychannel823 The body, despite being complex scientifically, doesn't seem like it's too much trouble for alchemists. We see them create chimera, and these beings are stable. Scar has his brother's arm transmuted onto him, and it works for him fine. The real problem seems to be doing transmutation to create a soul you don't have, which is why resurrection is so problematic.
@@taragnorthe reason the arm was able to be attached to scar was because the arm was already there. Its the difference between a making a BLT from bacon, lettuce, tomatoes, and bread vs making it with a pig, lettuce seed, tomato seed, and wheat.
i think the human soul has never been the reason for the failure of human transmutations. we know the gate is an infinite source of information and while each human mind who got a glimpse of it cant hold enough information to perform a human transmutation, the gate itself acting as the information might be the key to the success of al body's transmutation. so, we got the philosopher stone acting as the material needed, the gate acting as the information of the human body and the soul, which is still there somewhere, hasnt passed on yet, possibly bound to the armor however, if that is the case, then a human body without a soul is still a lot and quite possibly isnt any reason to not at least function and we have actually seen that, each human transmutation seen in the series have shown signs of live although short lived, which mean every of their failure was due to not having enough understanding of the body, which lead to an abomination body that cant sustain its own life. another thing is the time ed made al's soul bound to the armor. it requires his arm, which mean it is also a human transmutation and it succeed, which mean, the price of the soul is just that, one most valuable body part
I feel it's worth a mention that all the ingredients for making a human being "surprisingly easy to find" is an understandable perspective, but quickly stops being so surprising when we take a step back from the concept of humans as something special and difficult to make, and acknowledge how there's literal billions of humans in the world who are all composed of these materials and we aren't the only things made from them. Considering how "we are what we eat", in that are main way to get nutrients to build are own bodies is by absorbing them from whatever we consume, it can be reasonably assumed that whatever we're made of is relatively common in our diets and as such must abundant enough in the world around us to have resulted in that. Your point about the lack of necessary processing power to be capable of building a human from scratch is great, I hadn't considered that and I'd overlooked how our modern knowledge of the body isn't something they'd have in their setting. It makes me wonder if part of how the philosopher's stones allow for such transmutations is because the souls they contain can be forced to work as additional processing units, which would further add to why the vast majority of human souls we see in stones have completely lost their sense of self and constantly scream in agony. They allow for "breaking the conservation of mass" by burning souls for energy which is used to produce the new mass, so it might not be too much of a stretch that they use souls for this as well. Regarding the human transmutation w/out a stone, I think it's noteworthy that Father recreated Hohenheim's body during/ immediately after the moment they both became living philosopher's stones, and offscreen at that so we didn't get to see if it was red or blue lightning that sparked off from the act.
@@snowboundwhale6860 that’s true! It really shouldn’t be surprising that our bodies are made of such easily obtainable materials, at least on an elemental level. It’s what’s done with those materials once they’re in our bodies that’s amazing. On your idea about souls as additional processors, that’s a really interesting idea! It would explain how philosopher’s stones can ‘cheat’ the alchemical process so easily. It’d be the equivalent of having a quantum computer to do your pre-cal homework! Thanks for watching and commenting.
I think if a guy can become a suit of armor it's not beyond reason to assume you could construct a blank body from a basic template and transfer the information onto it If it works for crazy ass armor you should reasonably work for a blank brain
Anytime we examine fiction, we have to take some… leaps of imagination. However, considering that Al’s armor body specifically doesn’t work like an actual body (he can’t sleep or eat or heal on his own) and the characters in the world of the show and manga have raised questions of how real he is, I think a lot of my points still have merit. Thanks for watching and commenting!
A suit of armor is a lot more homogenous at a molecular level, thus, easier, you "grab" the material at the molecular level and "dump" wherever (so to speak), maybe not even molecular level required, just tiny chunks are required to manage. A human body there's all these elements and they need to be arranged "just right" down to the DNA and all the inner workings of our cells at a molecular level. And then the cells need to be arranged just right in order to make tissue, and the tissue just right to make organs and muscles and organs, all within the correct anatomy, it's extremely dense in complexity.
@@PolishedX I would like to clarify the observation I was making is that the complexities of the brain itself don't seem entirely necessary. If armor can be made to think and act on its own then I see no reason why a person's consciousness couldn't easily pilot a faux body. Alchemists can clearly make living tissue So I see no reason you couldn't arrange things in a working mechanical order even if the creature you create isn't technically a human.
@@dr.freshmemes3696 And we don't even know if the brain is as complex in the FMA universe, given that creatures without human brains (soul bound armor, homunculus, etc.) can exist. It seems the soul holds most of the personality and thought process in FMA metaphysics, given Al is able to think, remember and even do alchemy in his armor body. In FMA brains are overrated. They're probably just the equivalent of a biological soul binding circle.
interestingly enough, the only true complete human transmutation was archived by giving away the door of knowledge that allows transmutation to alchemists, in precense of "Truth" makes sense then that it was possible, even if he still didnt know about it, the door "knew"
In the manga and Brotherhood, there's a scene where Edward is dying and has to jury-rig his organs to survive. And even that was nearly beyond his ability to do. Just as another point in this theory's favor.
The complexity of the human body is fractal-like. The closer you look the more and more complex it is. Even one protein that turns into a chemical motor is unbelievably complex, and there are TRILLIONS of them! It is indeed miraculous.
Il think Envy's alchemy puts a wrench into your hypothesis : he uses a pattern to Morph into someone, which is fine when you are facing the person, but how does he store the information of entirely different people to morph at will through months and months, that including his three basic forms and using an occasional animal form. Evidence suggest that the amount of information a human body represents Is a minor inconvenience for Envy
@@BentArrowni that’s a fair objection. Let me give two possible solutions: first, Envy does have a philosopher’s stone which is basically a ‘get out of jail free’ card for any limits on alchemy. But second, I doubt that Envy is storing the ENTIRETY of the information that makes up a person for every form he can take. He probably doesn’t share Hughes’s wife’s allergies and memories when he becomes her. Just copying the phenotype is a much smaller energy requirement. Of course, I could still be wrong. I just think it’s fun to speculate! Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@singularitychannel823 Building on that, Envy only copies the person's outer dimensions. He can't copy memories or behavioral patterns without careful observation of the subject, as seen in FMA:B when he tries to copy Mustang to attack Hawkeye. Envy could copy Mustang's form, but can't duplicate anything else about him, which is why Hawkeye is able to determine it wasn't Mustang. It is possible that Envy could mimic certain kinds of alchemy to help the disguise, but it would be very limited as the sins haven't shown the ability to fully duplicate general alchemical techniques. For example, Alphonse (or Ed) fixed a radio in the desert town, but Envy (nor any of the other sins) haven't shown their ability to mimic that. They do seem to be well versed in alchemy and its more intricate components (most likely courtesy of Father), but they generally can't *do* alchemy on their own. When Pride attempts it towards the end of FMA:B, he begins to literally fall apart. I would argue that in the FMA universe there is some non-physical component to creating humans, as all alchemists that attempt human transmutation end up meeting "Truth" along the way. The argument that Truth is the person's own sub-conscious rebelling against the attempt could have merit, as Truth usually assumes the form/outline of a figure the alchemist already knows, but isn't conclusive. Plus it doesn't explain why *every* alchemist sees Truth, nor why all who do see Truth end up being able to perform alchemy without a circle. Plus, the ending of FMA:B hints at there being some greater connection between human alchemy and the human soul: Ed manages to bring back Al's body, but only by sacrificing his own ability to do alchemy. Granted, the body wasn't made from scratch (it was apparently stuck with Truth in the gate plane), but even so, recreation of the body (or transfer from the gate plane) should have been impossible without external assistance, i.e. Truth. Great video by the way. I got into the details before commenting on the video itself, but it is really well done. I don't fully agree with the entire conclusion, as mentioned above, but it is certainly a very well reasoned take on human transmutation. I guess my only objection would be that it *feels* incomplete because of a few specific examples, not because the argument lacks validity.
@@Aiursfallen937 thanks for watching and commenting! I feel like I should be clear, as this wasn’t said in the video. I FULLY agree with the argument that the human soul is too valuable to be created through alchemy. That’s the writer’s intent and FMA just isn’t the same story without the metaphysics and philosophy. My argument is that human transmutation would fail long before that becomes an issue. I just didn’t spell all that out because… well there wasn’t really a good place to fit it into the script lol. The ending does show what you’re saying pretty clearly.
@@Aiursfallen937 With the homunculus sins all being created by Father, and Gluttony being an explicit attempt to create an artificial gate of truth, it seems probable that none of the 7 actually have their own gates; This would explain their apparent inability to use alchemy themselves, as Ed giving up his gate at the end of the series leaves him incapable of using alchemy despite retaining all his knowledge of it. Each had a unique ability preinstalled into their bodies (shapeshifting, carbon reconfiguration, pride's shadow anatomy, being a gate etc), but they don't display the ability to actually use allchemy themselves beyond that; Even when Pride "performed a transmutation" he was really forcing an actual alchemist to do it, using his own body as the circle and binding Mustang in place. It's possible that Pride has the knowledge, ability to form the circle, and can run energy through the circle, but doesn't actually have a gate of truth as the last necessary component to perform the transmutation, whereas Mustang did and that's why he was the person who Truth deemed to be performing it.
There's one issue with your bit on Ed escaping Envy; by your own words, Ed doesn't know the full complex makeup of the human body, even his own. If he somehow *did* know it, then it's not too far fetched to say he would know what the human body is made of, down to the molecular level. But since we see him do it, then logically, he MUST know how to reconstitute an entire human body, including any automail limbs they have (he couldn't reconstitute his own original arm since his automail arm isn't equivalent to it, nor could he do the same with others). Hell, he rebuilt his AND Lings body, and Ling seems to be a bit older and therefor would have a different structure making up his body, however small. Your argument that the Elric boys being unable to perform human transmutation at the *start* of the series is correct, however. But after seeing the Gate of Truth and having all knowledge of alchemy shoved into their brains, which would include the molecular structure of the human body (which then explains how he's able to reconstitute his own and Lings body), I'd gamble that *creating* a new human body wouldn't be too hard. But the *soul* would still be the missing part, because as the show asks, what is the price of a human soul? This also makes sense if you look at the end of the series; Al sacrifices his own soul to give Ed his arm back (because it was his arm that was given up for the soul, despite Ed being willing to give up his own existence). But when facing Truth/God, Ed can't simply give up his arm since he wants Alphonse to come back with his body AND soul. So he gives up his ability to perform alchemy ever again to save Al, since because he went in with just his own body and soul, he couldn't just give himself up or the cycle would continue. By virtue of the Gate of Truth, Ed and Al COULD transmute an entire human body, but the price of the human soul is knowledge only available to Truth/God.
@@Dimumouto yeah I think that’s absolutely a valid interpretation of the events! One of the reason I make videos is to celebrate some of my favorite media, so I love seeing different perspectives on my favorite anime of all time. I think Truth is hard to account for here, because, well… none of us have met him! But I do think there’s something to be said for the “repetition does not equal full comprehension” argument. Ed’s intelligence would actually probably make the recreation easier for him! But I would never say that I’m 100% right with no margin for error, so I appreciate you perspective on the matter. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Life is a process that uses entropy to *reverse* entropy - which is possible as long as entropy in the overall system increases. It’s like a waterwheel, where the flow of entropy from low to high is the river, it uses this movement to power itself. Imagine building a waterwheel as it turns - that’s what human transmutation seems like to me.
"The miracle of the human body" from my late 20's up to the age 40 I always felt like I was holding live wires. Go experience chronic pain for over a decade and then call the human body a miracle
honestly I think the metaphyysics is part of it, but true, it would also be impossible if you had a way t orecreate the soul (like a philosopher's stone) simple due to the insane complexity
@@Metalhammer1993 and that’s the biggest struggle discussing this series bc it borrows do much from historical alchemy and philosophy. Which is why my stance for this project was to ignore all of that for the time being and just discuss the anatomy. Thanks for watching and commenting!
the trouble is, this video is written from a physicalist POV, while every version of FMA shows itself to be dualist in nature. the interactions between Edward and The Truth, as well as Al's armored body, show definitively that the human soul and intelligence exist separately from the brain and body. not only does this mean that the mind is restored by restoring the soul to the body, not by arranging the brain, but also that the inner workings of the body may be different in FMA's world than ours, possibly lacking cellular structure
@@ridleykiller1994 that’s definitely a valid interpretation, but I didn’t intend this video to be materialist at all! I actually believe in an immortal soul personally, but there no denying that a nonmaterial component of the individual exists in FMA. This is something I absolutely should have been clearer about in the video and I’ll use it to improve future scripts, but my argument is that the physical limitations have to be overcome BEFORE we can content with the metaphysics of the soul. I mean it more as a celebration of the amazing complexity of our bodies than a takedown of philosophy. So I apologize about not making that clearer in my script, but I 100% believe that the soul exists and plays a huge part in FMA.
It's a nice theory, but... no. Souls exist in FMA. That's unarguable. The problem of comprehension would have been something the alchemists of Amestris would have been very familar with, and you nicely explained a way they could bypass that problem: outside records. Chimeras exist, and not just Tucker's. Other people have created them as well. It's possible to make them because all the information that's needed already exist. An alchemist doesn't need to understand the entirety of what they're creating, if that was truly the case alchemy would have been impossible to begin with. Atomic (or, even more realistically, subatomic) structures are just too complicated to completely understand, especially for something so big as to be relevant on a human scale. No, alchemists only have to understand enough to direct the process. They have to have access to some other storage medium to complete things. I'm pretty sure that's the reason the Law of Natural Providence is a thing (objects composed of a particular material or element can only be transmuted into objects of similar composition). All is one, and one is all. All the information you need is there - is everywhere - it's in the Truth. In the case of human transmutation (or any other kind of biological transmutation), DNA should suffice for the anatomy part. Father is clearly able to create a human body from base elements, as shown when he created Greed from his tank of material & soul slurry. Then he was able to stick a soul (or two) inside it. You CAN make a human with alchemy, it's just really difficult. What's (almost) impossible is creating a soul. It's something we've never seen happen in-story. I don't think it's ACTUALLY impossible if you had a bunch of the 'elements' a soul was made of and understood how it was structured and vaguely how it worked (and had access to something like soul DNA or some other external information source that completed the information equation), but I don't think anyone in that show (apart from Truth ofc) could do something like that. But even then, you can't bring the dead back to life. Because the afterlife is probably a thing. We see Hoenheim reunite with Trisha in the story, and while that may just be artistic flourish it could easily be what actually happened. Souls clearly exist, so an afterlife shouldn't be that big of a stretch. You could, I suppose, create a copy of a person. But you'd still need the soul-equivalent of DNA if souls are anything as complicated as a biological body (which they really should be, at minimum), and if I was the author I'd probably wave that 'problem' away with something like 'quantum information can not be completely identical' so you can't really have two completely identical souls, no matter how hard you tried. You could make a pretty convincing copy, but it'd still be a copy, and recognizably so for someone with all the necessary knowledge. So, to TRULY bring someone back to life you'll have to summon a soul back from the afterlife, or retrieve it in some other way, and I don't think the process of Alchemy is actually able to do that. Is alchemy even capable of teleportation/summoning to begin with? I'd say yes, but you'd need a lot more knowledge than anyone in Amestris, Xerxes, or Xing actually had. You'd probably need the theory of special relativity to even try something like that, and even then I don't think that would be enough to summon a soul from the afterlife. Even if you had the theory necessary, even if you had all the knowledge you needed, the law of equivalent exchange would probably stop you. For to gain something, something of equal value must be lost. What's equal to a person's soul? Another soul? Could you sacrifice one person to bring back another if you had the proper technique like they do in Naruto? Probably not. At least you wouldn't be able to if I was the one that wrote the story. Every soul is unique. One person is not equal to another. Every soul is uniquely valuable in a way bodies aren't. Ten souls for one? No. A hundred? No. Millions or billions? No. There's nothing you can give that can balance this equation. I'm basically writing my own FMA fanfic at this point, I grant you, but it's what makes the most sense to me. In the FMA verse you can resurrect someone as long as you have their soul, though it's difficult. Edd's and Alphonse's quest was possible because they still had their souls, and as difficult as bodies are to recreate it's not actually impossible. Edd even still had his DNA handy so it might actually have been somewhat realistic to grow him a new arm and foot. Maybe a master healer in Xing could have managed it if he'd gone there. Alphonse would have been more difficult, but if not his original body then it should have been possible to create something better than his armor - he'd essentially be turned into a special chimera. Though his physical body still existed within Edd's Gate, and his soul was clearly drawn to it, so that might have created some problems. It was stated they could have achived their quest with a philosopher's stone, though they refused to use it because of their morals. That heavily implies using one gives the user access to more than just an enormous amount of energy. My interpretation is that soul-energy like that is just super easy to use - easy enough that creating whole bodies from scratch is actually doable even without DNA handy to act as the blueprint. Where the information is coming from then... Truth again, probably? The point is that a theory like this ignores too much of the metaphysical aspects of FMA, going straight for the most materialist explanation possible. It's a theory I can easily see a whole bunch of Amestrian alchemists believe just for Edd, Al, or someone else suitably wise to disabuse them.
I mean, just the Ed escaping Gluttony is enough of a proof against a materialist explanation, really. If the argument is "The human body is too complex to accurately recreate using alchemy", then Ed doing exactly that to himself to get out of Gluttony proves it wrong. He effectively Star Trek'd not just himself, but also Ling and Envy (A homunculus, whose composition might not be identical to that of a human). Personally, if we're talking in terms of computational power, I think it might be likely that Alchemists are simply "programmers" and that Truth/the Gate of Truth acts like some sort of cloud computer/compiler that actually executes the "alchemical program". It would explain why losing the gate locks one out of using alchemy.
The thing is, the story contradicts itself. Despite all its talk about souls having no determined worth, the Philosopher's Stone demonstrates that not to be true. It explicitly works by trading souls to fuel whatever alchemical process they try to use. The fact that Philosopher's Stones work and use up souls as they are used, based on the amount of alchemy they perform, means there has to be a value for a soul in alchemy. It may vary somewhat, but all souls must have a predefined worth; otherwise, a Philosopher's Stone could fundamentally not work or have a predictable rate of soul consumption.
@@randomdude6446 Or philosopher's stones doesn't 'use up' souls. It could just be that the crystalized souls are frozen in the material world until they're allowed to pass on, and that passing creates energy. Another possibility is that storing souls that way also takes all the life energy a person had at the point of soul extraction and THAT'S what's used up, and so they fade. That's how I'd have written it at least.
@@96ace96 Yeah, that would be a great explanation. The problem is that it's pure headcanon. In the story, it's directly stated that souls are used up. We also see Ed directly trade some of his life for alchemy explicitly by copying the process of a Philosopher's Stone. If that's true, then souls and life must have a specific worth, and not only that, they have a material equivalent to that worth rather than just a metaphysical value.
I would imagine that it is for similar reasons to why creating a whole new, albeit simpler lifeform from scratch is also impossible: DNA is an extremely complex chemical compound that didn't arise all at once in a single chemical reaction. There's too much information stored, too many variables to consider and account for, that it's just not realistic by standards of FMA's setting. Perhaps far into the distant future for them, it might be possible. But that's speculation.
@@SkylerLinux protein folding is probably the biggest frontier in all of biology right now. The progress we’re making is amazing! But there’s obviously still a lot to do.
Which is exactly why you need to have contact with the Truth to make a human transmutation, the knowledge and skill you get from that sacrifice is a must to even attempt to make a human with alchemy
in terms of the chimera, a dog and a human really are upwards of 99% similar at the fundamental level. more or less all the same proteins, same sell structures, almost the same DNA. in your analogy, a human dog chimera might be equivalent of taking apart a Dell computer and a Mac and using a combination of the parts from both to make a working computer. Certainly impressive, but they are both mostly the same creature doing mostly the same things, and made out of the same components in a very similar way.
When I saw the title I really thought you would consider the future possiilities more, e. g. if we can actually someday decipher all mysteries of the human body (I'd say no). Even if you make a perfect human body, you still have to create a perfect copy of the specific human brain as well or else he wouldn't think the same therefore not be the same person. Unfortunately, you didn't mention the "adding a drop of blood for the data" once. And as a proponent for determinism my answer to "what is the difference between a living being and a robot" is "just the complexity".
In Charles Stross' Laundry Files Series, you can sacrifice the information entropy of one thing (best not to think of the options) to increase the information entropy of another. Or, feed it to an interdimensional abomination to get its cooperation.
I have to admit I’m not familiar with that series, so I’m afraid I can’t contribute much to this particular discussion. But it sounds right up my alley. I may have to check it out. Thanks for watching and commenting!
The soul is simply an electrical charge, however how does one create electricity with transmutation? By converting mass into electricity. But even one atom is much more than the human body can handle, so the transmutation tries to add more mass from surrounding sources, hence the alchemist's injuries. But now there's excess mass that doesn't know where to go, so the product is randomised and mutated. Not to mention it isn't resurrecting, it's creating an entirely new life. There was a missing ingredient, Electricity.
These days we could MAYBE do something similar through cloning, though it's not certain. We can clone animals like sheep, but humans may be beyond what we can do for now. There are also the ethical implications of such an effort, we are nowhere near settling the ethics, never mind laws, surrounding that practice. As of now all we can do is modify what already exists. I'd say that even now things like CRISPR are miracle technologies. I imagine those in the world of FMA would give anything to be able to modify the human body.
I paused the video to type this out to see if my thoughts are similar It is impossible because what is called "information of the soul" is impossible to replicate as it is a fourth dimensional object, experiential data of the subject, which cannot be shared between two individuals and attempting it, is essentially just busting into gods front door and the payment for infinite knowledge cannot be paid by a single being. Its why the truth claims the parts you pay with, if your payment results in all of your body being lost and soul, you essentially gain exactly what you asked for.. but lose your individuality and become part of the one that is all. But just like with everything else, it can be reclaimed.. in case of the elric brothers, the payment was Edward's gate of truth. To try to create a person out of base components, you'd have to recreate their entire continuity.. which isn't possible. If it was lost to truth, you could trade for the whole person.. but you cannot create a copy of them.. it was a unique instance of a being in space/time and trying to create it like that would require omnipresence and omnipotence.. father wished for it too and he got it, too bad it also meant that he was reintegrated to god and lost his individuality.
The soul in FMA is just their current science's understanding of the mind and so is the series' human exceptionalism. Mind and body are one and ours isn't that extraordinary when compared to some other species. We now know that memories affect DNA and memories are often fickle and phantasmagorical. How could you ever understand everything someone else felt and how those sensations reverberated through that person's life and choices? How could you know a random step someone took 25 years ago changed their anatomy and they walk with a limp and that led to their entire gait changing to avoid pain? Would fixing that reconstruct the same person?
I would say that even with everything we know about the human body now, there's still enough about it that's still a mystery that even an alchemist with up to date 2024 human anatomy knowledge wouldn't be able to make a human being just on that merit alone.
The problem isn't anatomy, it is information entropy. Thermal entropy in the body is low as energy is not evenly distributed. Information Entropy on the other hand is high as the unpredictable or meaningful content of the body structures is high. That is, all that organization is not easily predictable and is thus meaningful in an information theory way which is what Information Entropy measures. You can bring all the elements together, but arranging them into a meaningful whole takes a great deal of energy. The higher the information entropy of the final product the more energy that has to go into assembling it. This is actually true outside the story as assembling a computer takes much more energy than just combining the raw materials.
@@kimwelch4652 I’d argue that these are two sides of the same issue. My point was that to make a person, you need the knowledge of how a person is made, not just raw materials. Part of that is understanding cellular biology, part of it is anatomy, and part of it is the specifics of any individual. And a human body is a weird middle ground because there IS a level of predictability and hierarchy to it, but you’re absolutely right that there’s also a level of disorder. But all of that comes together to make the body way more complicated than a cannon or a radio and far out of the realm of possibility. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@singularitychannel823 It's not the knowledge of how the person is made, but the information embedded within the structure of the person. We don't build humans, but the process of gestation slowly over nine months imbues the body with the information it needs to organize itself. The term "unpredictable" is different from random. Choice is unpredictable, random is predictable within the bounds of probability. When we send a meaningful message, the meaningful content (as opposed to the purely structural elements) is unpredictable. If it is predictable even by probability, then it is not really meaningful and is not counted when measuring information entropy. Living things are full of meaning (high in information entropy) because their structure comes from choice rather than random events. The proteins that make up a cell are not random, but chosen to fit the chosen structure. This is a semiotic process and like the Interpretant of Charles Peirce, it's best not to think about what is doing the Interpretant-ing (i.e., choosing) unless you like going down rabbit holes.
So this makes sense why a human cannot be fully created, and why Al couldnhave been brought back because his entire physical being was brought into the Gate; but how come a humonculus can be using the same materials plus one Philosopher's stone? Are they essentially a separate species? And could the same be applied to recreating an animal's body since it is just as complicated to create?
@@PirvateerKurei I would indeed argue that homunculi aren’t fully human, and I think the show tends to support that. The concept of a homunculus who can age and grow was a huge shock to Greed when he found out about Bradley, so there are obviously some major differences. As for animals, yeah I’d say so! They obviously range in complexity, but a lot of them, including most mammals, would present the same issues. Unless you want to take the Shou Tucker Shortcut and do the alchemical equivalent of sewing two different colored blankets together. Thanks for watching and commenting!
On the one hand, I think you're on to something, since we NEVER see life of ANY kind transmuted from inanimate matter. We see transmutation BLENDING life forms, but never making them from scratch. On the other hand, however, we also see that you CAN'T make a 'speaking animal' without starting with a human. That indicates that this is actually a two-fold problem. You can't make life from inanimate material, regardless of the materials present, but you also can't make something sapient from non-sapient material, regardless of the materials present.
@@colinsmith1495 I think I’d agree with you here. Almost (and major emphasis on almost) every living transmutation in the series requires life as a starting point. Who knows, maybe vitalism is true in the world of FMA… but probably not. Thanks for watching and commenting!
In context of the anime, this analysis is weird. Transmutation occurs by gremlins in another dimension taking a thing and giving you a different thing. If those gremlins wanted to give you a living body, they could, but they’re stingy.
@@noneofyourbusiness4133 In the 03 anime that's pretty much how it works, Truth isn't a character there and the Gate has a pretty different function/ purpose.
I propose an argument regarding the knowledge the FMA world had regarding the human body. First would be truth providing more indepth knowledge about it. Second would be the access to alchemy itself. Using alchemy to study the body might allow a better understanding of the human body, although dna sequencing and the brain might still be an issue....
@@kazemizu It’s definitely feasible that they have more in-depth knowledge than we did in the 50s, but enough to build a body from scratch? That’s a bit of a stretch. Thanks for watching and commenting!
To be fair, there is one successful human transmutation in the series, with no philosophers stone, and I'm not counting trading Ed's Gate for Alphonse. Ed performed human transmutation on himself to stop the bleeding after the attack on the mines by Kimbley (right before Kimbley's chimeras decided to leave him and follow Ed, little before meeting Von Hoenheim and the first Pride fight). However if anything I feel as this actually IMPROVES the argument you make in your video, as Ed was only able to subvert the lack of anatomical knowledge because he was performing alchemy on his own body!
@@brendangallagher3030 that is probably a point I should’ve mentioned! But I agree with you. And there’s a HUGE difference between fixing an issue and rebuilding something from scratch. Thanks for watching and commenting!
You're mistaken about the Memories aspect, the Human brain is a Radio Receiver/Tranceiver, non localized memory storage is a given. Now you may counter that physical damage to the brain nullifies access to certain memories and while that is functionally true, you're not thinking of it like a Personal Computer, if I damage components within it, of course functionality will be reduced, that doesn't mean the PC isn't still connected to the Cloud. You're close, but not quite there.
@@thephilosophersstoned3796 any model we use to explain the brain is going to be fundamentally flawed because it’s such a complex organ. I wasn’t trying to say that a human brain is just a memory machine. Just that everything we do/can do has to have some corresponding pattern. There is no ‘memory part’ of the brain, but it still has to be able to hold all of the millions of different tasks that we learn how to do. Which makes it many times more impressive than a transceiver or a PC! Thanks for watching and commenting!
I’d tend to agree with you. And maybe I should’ve made that clearer but there was just nowhere in the script for it. I think that the complexity is the FIRST hurdle, not the ONLY one. But obviously there’s something special about the soul in the world of FMA as well. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Shouldn’t some of these rules be bypassed with the gate of truth? I mean we saw that the gate provides impossible/forbidden knowledge that allows alchemists to do things that shouldn’t be possible, like using transmutation without a circle.
Sorta? The way I’ve always interpreted it is that Truth doesn’t break or bypass rules, it just gives people a deeper understanding of those rules. If you’ll remember, Ed isn’t using alchemy without a circle, he’s using his own body as the circle. It’s not necessarily cheat codes, as much as it’s having a more nuanced understanding of the nature and application of alchemy. BUT even if it does break the rules, that puts us in a ‘chicken or egg’ situation because the only (or main) way to access Truth is through failed human transmutation. Thanks for watching and commenting!
I dont think anyone can transmute it successfully even now. The majority of the human brain’s functions is not even determined yet. Every organ has its specialist, we have not even started about the attachment molecules of the antibodies of the immune system… how does one completely remember that in after one clap of the hands??? Maybe if transmutation was not as instantaneous….
@@hansgo1760 oh 100%. Even with our modern knowledge, the human body is still filled with mysteries. It’s one of the reasons that genetics is such a fascinating field! Thanks for watching and commenting!
Also note: the only reason human anatomy APPEARS to be infinitely complex to us is because we are humans. Our limits are defined by the limits of anatomy, so it would be paradoxical to comprehend anatomy in its entirety.
Can you reword your comment? Am struggling to understand what you mean. Anatomy is just the structure of bodies, even the anatomies of other animals are complex. Sure we have PHYSICAL limits because of our anatomy like how fast we can run or how strong we are, but our mental capabilities like our psychology and thoughts are beyond that.
A lot of the mysteries of the human body aren't exactly mysteries. Protein folding for example, we have a decent understanding of. The issue has more been the processing power required to simulate folding. There are still a few things to work out before we can predict it perfectly every time, but we're largely there. Same with the other aspects, like yawning we have a pretty decent idea on, but we cant definitively prove it. Consciousness is likely just emergent complexity. As far as we can tell, there would be no difference between a sufficiently advanced machine and our biological machine. How do you prove if an AI is conscious, or even other people? It's an open question. Given enough time, I'd imagine the world of FMA would increasing come closer to human transmutation as they improved their actual understanding of the human body. They do seem aware of shortcuts they could take to speed things along, evidenced by the Manniquin Soldiers and the homunculi themselves.
There's definitely a difference between human-conscious and robot-conscious. Metacognition and awareness. Robots don't have the same self-awareness as we do to make their own decisions or even talk back to us unless we input that into their code. This is how you find empirical proof for something being "conscious" aswell, that along with measuring it's brain activity, object permanence, and how it responds to "suffering" and pain.
@blueworld1825 those definitions work fine for current day robots and AI, which are pretty basic really, and not many people would seriously argue that they are conscious. But what about more advanced ones? Data from Star Trek would demonstrate all of those aspects. Perhaps more than many humans do, especially on the metacognition side, and definitely more than some of the alien species who were considered sentient without question. Various incarnations of Skynet would be an example of an AI without an obvious body that displays all those characteristics too. At least one demonstrated remorse and determined that its initial knee-jerk reaction to view humans as an existential threat to it was mistaken and subsequently made peace leading to a golden age, a pretty clear example of introspection that again, not all humans demonstrate well. You could make arguments that it's just a cost/benefit analysis, but that same argument could be applied to humans, leading back to the same spot. How do you say one is, but not the other?
MatPat vibes might be the best compliment I could’ve gotten! Yeah the 1910s-1920s are probably a closer analogy, but they also have more advanced prosthetics than we did, so it’s certainly not a one-to-one conversion. Thanks for watching and commenting!
That’s fair. I went with 1940s mostly just to nail down a date and give benefit of the doubt, but if I recall the mangaka said it was like a mix of the US and Germany at the turn of the century. Don’t quote me on that though! Thanks for watching and commenting!
if im being honest i thought this video was gonna be 10 years old and then i looked at the date
Some may say low quality mic (and they’d be right). But I prefer to think of it as retro RUclips. Thanks for commenting!
@@singularitychannel823 it wasn't from the quality its more of the fact i never see fullmetal stuff anymore
@@zebzero1348 that’s alright, I didn’t take it poorly! I love FMA and will gladly discuss it at any opportunity given!
Feels just like it were yesterday
@@zebzero1348Exactly! It's so weird! One of the greatest anime/manga and basically nobody talks about it anymore. People still talk about Death Note and Evangelion, why is there such a silence around FMA?
It's like building a 70kg infinitesimal fractal
@@PolishedX that’s EXACTLY what it’s like. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Any chance that can be explained in less than an academic paper?
sho minamimoto spotted in the wild
"The soul could be seen as a reference to the brain. It is so vast and complex that even attempting to transfer all memories into a new body or brain is an insanely difficult task. This is because hormones, neuron patterns, and other factors would need to be changed and adapted to successfully accomplish a soul/mind transplantation.
@@darvog7160 that’s absolutely possible! FMA pulls from a LOT of historical alchemical theories and… to be frank, they’re not very consistent because of the inherent secrecy of Middle Ages alchemy. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@darvog7160 Ed transplanted Al's soul when they were kids. Barry the chopper exists. The creation of a philosopher's stone is just soul transplantation and petrification on a big scale
Nah. Mainly because they can actually bind souls. Al got bound to a suit of armor and is still able to think and function with no brain. That must be a soul that retains his personality.
FMA takes place way earlier than the 1940s,it's actually closer in equivalency to the 1910s,so it's safe to say that they would know even less which would make human transmutation all the more impossible...
@@mrslasher1064 which means that either way… we’re a loooooong way off from gene sequencing or comprehensive brain scans. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Yeraaahh..no. They're not technologically equivalent. They have functioning cybernetics ffs.
@@Vegeta-k9o
I said "closer in equivalency" not "exactly equivalent"
People in the 1910s didn't have magic...
if i remember right, Bradley is supposed to be the dimensional equivalent to Hitler. And in conqueror of shambala the beerhouse thing hasn't happened yet, so it was definitely pre-1930s.
@@alexhulea2735
I mean he's literally called "the Furher" and he's got an epic mustache
But Human Transmutation isn't impossible. What's impossible is returning to life someone whose soul has already passed on into their afterlife. At the end of the series, when Ed used Human Transmutation to return Alphonse it worked, since Alphonse hadn't passed on and was waiting. He paid an equivalent price to Al's soul, his own Gate (which while we can all claim a soul has no equivalent value, "Truth" clearly disagrees), everything went right, Al is back. Perfectly successful Human Transmutation used to bring someone back to life
@@julianogodoy964 yes absolutely! It’s always difficult to account for how Truth affects an alchemist, but yeah I can’t deny that human transmutation obviously DOES occur. However, it is still a major taboo for a reason: it almost never works and has disastrous side effects. My argument here is that, before we can ever consider the worth of a soul, we have to wrestle with the complexity of the body. ‘Impossible’ may just be a bit of clickbait, but it’s a word that the alchemists use too, so I don’t feel too bad lol. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@julianogodoy964 At the end of the series Ed used his Gate to pay for Al's BODY that was stored inside Ed's Gate all along. Al's soul was stuck in his armor, which Ed retrieved from his Gate by paying for it with one of his arms when they first did human transmutation.
@@singularitychannel823 The body, despite being complex scientifically, doesn't seem like it's too much trouble for alchemists. We see them create chimera, and these beings are stable. Scar has his brother's arm transmuted onto him, and it works for him fine. The real problem seems to be doing transmutation to create a soul you don't have, which is why resurrection is so problematic.
@@taragnorthe reason the arm was able to be attached to scar was because the arm was already there. Its the difference between a making a BLT from bacon, lettuce, tomatoes, and bread vs making it with a pig, lettuce seed, tomato seed, and wheat.
i think the human soul has never been the reason for the failure of human transmutations.
we know the gate is an infinite source of information and while each human mind who got a glimpse of it cant hold enough information to perform a human transmutation, the gate itself acting as the information might be the key to the success of al body's transmutation.
so, we got the philosopher stone acting as the material needed, the gate acting as the information of the human body and the soul, which is still there somewhere, hasnt passed on yet, possibly bound to the armor
however, if that is the case, then a human body without a soul is still a lot and quite possibly isnt any reason to not at least function and we have actually seen that, each human transmutation seen in the series have shown signs of live although short lived, which mean every of their failure was due to not having enough understanding of the body, which lead to an abomination body that cant sustain its own life.
another thing is the time ed made al's soul bound to the armor. it requires his arm, which mean it is also a human transmutation and it succeed, which mean, the price of the soul is just that, one most valuable body part
I feel it's worth a mention that all the ingredients for making a human being "surprisingly easy to find" is an understandable perspective, but quickly stops being so surprising when we take a step back from the concept of humans as something special and difficult to make, and acknowledge how there's literal billions of humans in the world who are all composed of these materials and we aren't the only things made from them. Considering how "we are what we eat", in that are main way to get nutrients to build are own bodies is by absorbing them from whatever we consume, it can be reasonably assumed that whatever we're made of is relatively common in our diets and as such must abundant enough in the world around us to have resulted in that.
Your point about the lack of necessary processing power to be capable of building a human from scratch is great, I hadn't considered that and I'd overlooked how our modern knowledge of the body isn't something they'd have in their setting. It makes me wonder if part of how the philosopher's stones allow for such transmutations is because the souls they contain can be forced to work as additional processing units, which would further add to why the vast majority of human souls we see in stones have completely lost their sense of self and constantly scream in agony. They allow for "breaking the conservation of mass" by burning souls for energy which is used to produce the new mass, so it might not be too much of a stretch that they use souls for this as well.
Regarding the human transmutation w/out a stone, I think it's noteworthy that Father recreated Hohenheim's body during/ immediately after the moment they both became living philosopher's stones, and offscreen at that so we didn't get to see if it was red or blue lightning that sparked off from the act.
@@snowboundwhale6860 that’s true! It really shouldn’t be surprising that our bodies are made of such easily obtainable materials, at least on an elemental level. It’s what’s done with those materials once they’re in our bodies that’s amazing. On your idea about souls as additional processors, that’s a really interesting idea! It would explain how philosopher’s stones can ‘cheat’ the alchemical process so easily. It’d be the equivalent of having a quantum computer to do your pre-cal homework! Thanks for watching and commenting.
I think if a guy can become a suit of armor it's not beyond reason to assume you could construct a blank body from a basic template and transfer the information onto it
If it works for crazy ass armor you should reasonably work for a blank brain
Anytime we examine fiction, we have to take some… leaps of imagination. However, considering that Al’s armor body specifically doesn’t work like an actual body (he can’t sleep or eat or heal on his own) and the characters in the world of the show and manga have raised questions of how real he is, I think a lot of my points still have merit. Thanks for watching and commenting!
A suit of armor is a lot more homogenous at a molecular level, thus, easier, you "grab" the material at the molecular level and "dump" wherever (so to speak), maybe not even molecular level required, just tiny chunks are required to manage. A human body there's all these elements and they need to be arranged "just right" down to the DNA and all the inner workings of our cells at a molecular level. And then the cells need to be arranged just right in order to make tissue, and the tissue just right to make organs and muscles and organs, all within the correct anatomy, it's extremely dense in complexity.
@@PolishedX I would like to clarify the observation I was making is that the complexities of the brain itself don't seem entirely necessary.
If armor can be made to think and act on its own then I see no reason why a person's consciousness couldn't easily pilot a faux body.
Alchemists can clearly make living tissue
So I see no reason you couldn't arrange things in a working mechanical order even if the creature you create isn't technically a human.
@@dr.freshmemes3696 And we don't even know if the brain is as complex in the FMA universe, given that creatures without human brains (soul bound armor, homunculus, etc.) can exist. It seems the soul holds most of the personality and thought process in FMA metaphysics, given Al is able to think, remember and even do alchemy in his armor body. In FMA brains are overrated. They're probably just the equivalent of a biological soul binding circle.
This is really well produced. But you need to upgrade your mic.
interestingly enough, the only true complete human transmutation was archived by giving away the door of knowledge that allows transmutation to alchemists, in precense of "Truth"
makes sense then that it was possible, even if he still didnt know about it, the door "knew"
2:00 a lot less microplastics than expected but go off king
In the manga and Brotherhood, there's a scene where Edward is dying and has to jury-rig his organs to survive. And even that was nearly beyond his ability to do. Just as another point in this theory's favor.
How’s your channel so small this is amazing
Glad you enjoyed! A lot of effort goes into these videos
The complexity of the human body is fractal-like. The closer you look the more and more complex it is. Even one protein that turns into a chemical motor is unbelievably complex, and there are TRILLIONS of them! It is indeed miraculous.
Il think Envy's alchemy puts a wrench into your hypothesis : he uses a pattern to Morph into someone, which is fine when you are facing the person, but how does he store the information of entirely different people to morph at will through months and months, that including his three basic forms and using an occasional animal form. Evidence suggest that the amount of information a human body represents Is a minor inconvenience for Envy
@@BentArrowni that’s a fair objection. Let me give two possible solutions: first, Envy does have a philosopher’s stone which is basically a ‘get out of jail free’ card for any limits on alchemy. But second, I doubt that Envy is storing the ENTIRETY of the information that makes up a person for every form he can take. He probably doesn’t share Hughes’s wife’s allergies and memories when he becomes her. Just copying the phenotype is a much smaller energy requirement. Of course, I could still be wrong. I just think it’s fun to speculate! Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@singularitychannel823 Building on that, Envy only copies the person's outer dimensions. He can't copy memories or behavioral patterns without careful observation of the subject, as seen in FMA:B when he tries to copy Mustang to attack Hawkeye. Envy could copy Mustang's form, but can't duplicate anything else about him, which is why Hawkeye is able to determine it wasn't Mustang. It is possible that Envy could mimic certain kinds of alchemy to help the disguise, but it would be very limited as the sins haven't shown the ability to fully duplicate general alchemical techniques. For example, Alphonse (or Ed) fixed a radio in the desert town, but Envy (nor any of the other sins) haven't shown their ability to mimic that.
They do seem to be well versed in alchemy and its more intricate components (most likely courtesy of Father), but they generally can't *do* alchemy on their own. When Pride attempts it towards the end of FMA:B, he begins to literally fall apart.
I would argue that in the FMA universe there is some non-physical component to creating humans, as all alchemists that attempt human transmutation end up meeting "Truth" along the way. The argument that Truth is the person's own sub-conscious rebelling against the attempt could have merit, as Truth usually assumes the form/outline of a figure the alchemist already knows, but isn't conclusive. Plus it doesn't explain why *every* alchemist sees Truth, nor why all who do see Truth end up being able to perform alchemy without a circle.
Plus, the ending of FMA:B hints at there being some greater connection between human alchemy and the human soul: Ed manages to bring back Al's body, but only by sacrificing his own ability to do alchemy. Granted, the body wasn't made from scratch (it was apparently stuck with Truth in the gate plane), but even so, recreation of the body (or transfer from the gate plane) should have been impossible without external assistance, i.e. Truth.
Great video by the way. I got into the details before commenting on the video itself, but it is really well done. I don't fully agree with the entire conclusion, as mentioned above, but it is certainly a very well reasoned take on human transmutation. I guess my only objection would be that it *feels* incomplete because of a few specific examples, not because the argument lacks validity.
@@Aiursfallen937 thanks for watching and commenting! I feel like I should be clear, as this wasn’t said in the video. I FULLY agree with the argument that the human soul is too valuable to be created through alchemy. That’s the writer’s intent and FMA just isn’t the same story without the metaphysics and philosophy. My argument is that human transmutation would fail long before that becomes an issue. I just didn’t spell all that out because… well there wasn’t really a good place to fit it into the script lol. The ending does show what you’re saying pretty clearly.
@@Aiursfallen937 With the homunculus sins all being created by Father, and Gluttony being an explicit attempt to create an artificial gate of truth, it seems probable that none of the 7 actually have their own gates; This would explain their apparent inability to use alchemy themselves, as Ed giving up his gate at the end of the series leaves him incapable of using alchemy despite retaining all his knowledge of it. Each had a unique ability preinstalled into their bodies (shapeshifting, carbon reconfiguration, pride's shadow anatomy, being a gate etc), but they don't display the ability to actually use allchemy themselves beyond that; Even when Pride "performed a transmutation" he was really forcing an actual alchemist to do it, using his own body as the circle and binding Mustang in place. It's possible that Pride has the knowledge, ability to form the circle, and can run energy through the circle, but doesn't actually have a gate of truth as the last necessary component to perform the transmutation, whereas Mustang did and that's why he was the person who Truth deemed to be performing it.
There's one issue with your bit on Ed escaping Envy; by your own words, Ed doesn't know the full complex makeup of the human body, even his own. If he somehow *did* know it, then it's not too far fetched to say he would know what the human body is made of, down to the molecular level. But since we see him do it, then logically, he MUST know how to reconstitute an entire human body, including any automail limbs they have (he couldn't reconstitute his own original arm since his automail arm isn't equivalent to it, nor could he do the same with others). Hell, he rebuilt his AND Lings body, and Ling seems to be a bit older and therefor would have a different structure making up his body, however small.
Your argument that the Elric boys being unable to perform human transmutation at the *start* of the series is correct, however. But after seeing the Gate of Truth and having all knowledge of alchemy shoved into their brains, which would include the molecular structure of the human body (which then explains how he's able to reconstitute his own and Lings body), I'd gamble that *creating* a new human body wouldn't be too hard. But the *soul* would still be the missing part, because as the show asks, what is the price of a human soul?
This also makes sense if you look at the end of the series; Al sacrifices his own soul to give Ed his arm back (because it was his arm that was given up for the soul, despite Ed being willing to give up his own existence). But when facing Truth/God, Ed can't simply give up his arm since he wants Alphonse to come back with his body AND soul. So he gives up his ability to perform alchemy ever again to save Al, since because he went in with just his own body and soul, he couldn't just give himself up or the cycle would continue.
By virtue of the Gate of Truth, Ed and Al COULD transmute an entire human body, but the price of the human soul is knowledge only available to Truth/God.
@@Dimumouto yeah I think that’s absolutely a valid interpretation of the events! One of the reason I make videos is to celebrate some of my favorite media, so I love seeing different perspectives on my favorite anime of all time. I think Truth is hard to account for here, because, well… none of us have met him! But I do think there’s something to be said for the “repetition does not equal full comprehension” argument. Ed’s intelligence would actually probably make the recreation easier for him! But I would never say that I’m 100% right with no margin for error, so I appreciate you perspective on the matter. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Life is a process that uses entropy to *reverse* entropy - which is possible as long as entropy in the overall system increases. It’s like a waterwheel, where the flow of entropy from low to high is the river, it uses this movement to power itself. Imagine building a waterwheel as it turns - that’s what human transmutation seems like to me.
Maybe a slightly different musical background theme, something darker but otherwise great video
I’ll readily admit that the audio side of things is my kryptonite when it comes to making videos. Thanks for watching and commenting!
"The miracle of the human body" from my late 20's up to the age 40 I always felt like I was holding live wires. Go experience chronic pain for over a decade and then call the human body a miracle
Who wants to bake a human cake.
@@ianalphax8875 maybe we can cheat a bit and use cake mix…
honestly I think the metaphyysics is part of it, but true, it would also be impossible if you had a way t orecreate the soul (like a philosopher's stone) simple due to the insane complexity
@@Metalhammer1993 and that’s the biggest struggle discussing this series bc it borrows do much from historical alchemy and philosophy. Which is why my stance for this project was to ignore all of that for the time being and just discuss the anatomy. Thanks for watching and commenting!
the trouble is, this video is written from a physicalist POV, while every version of FMA shows itself to be dualist in nature. the interactions between Edward and The Truth, as well as Al's armored body, show definitively that the human soul and intelligence exist separately from the brain and body. not only does this mean that the mind is restored by restoring the soul to the body, not by arranging the brain, but also that the inner workings of the body may be different in FMA's world than ours, possibly lacking cellular structure
@@ridleykiller1994 that’s definitely a valid interpretation, but I didn’t intend this video to be materialist at all! I actually believe in an immortal soul personally, but there no denying that a nonmaterial component of the individual exists in FMA. This is something I absolutely should have been clearer about in the video and I’ll use it to improve future scripts, but my argument is that the physical limitations have to be overcome BEFORE we can content with the metaphysics of the soul. I mean it more as a celebration of the amazing complexity of our bodies than a takedown of philosophy. So I apologize about not making that clearer in my script, but I 100% believe that the soul exists and plays a huge part in FMA.
It's a nice theory, but... no. Souls exist in FMA. That's unarguable. The problem of comprehension would have been something the alchemists of Amestris would have been very familar with, and you nicely explained a way they could bypass that problem: outside records. Chimeras exist, and not just Tucker's. Other people have created them as well. It's possible to make them because all the information that's needed already exist. An alchemist doesn't need to understand the entirety of what they're creating, if that was truly the case alchemy would have been impossible to begin with. Atomic (or, even more realistically, subatomic) structures are just too complicated to completely understand, especially for something so big as to be relevant on a human scale.
No, alchemists only have to understand enough to direct the process. They have to have access to some other storage medium to complete things. I'm pretty sure that's the reason the Law of Natural Providence is a thing (objects composed of a particular material or element can only be transmuted into objects of similar composition).
All is one, and one is all. All the information you need is there - is everywhere - it's in the Truth.
In the case of human transmutation (or any other kind of biological transmutation), DNA should suffice for the anatomy part.
Father is clearly able to create a human body from base elements, as shown when he created Greed from his tank of material & soul slurry. Then he was able to stick a soul (or two) inside it. You CAN make a human with alchemy, it's just really difficult. What's (almost) impossible is creating a soul. It's something we've never seen happen in-story. I don't think it's ACTUALLY impossible if you had a bunch of the 'elements' a soul was made of and understood how it was structured and vaguely how it worked (and had access to something like soul DNA or some other external information source that completed the information equation), but I don't think anyone in that show (apart from Truth ofc) could do something like that.
But even then, you can't bring the dead back to life.
Because the afterlife is probably a thing.
We see Hoenheim reunite with Trisha in the story, and while that may just be artistic flourish it could easily be what actually happened. Souls clearly exist, so an afterlife shouldn't be that big of a stretch.
You could, I suppose, create a copy of a person. But you'd still need the soul-equivalent of DNA if souls are anything as complicated as a biological body (which they really should be, at minimum), and if I was the author I'd probably wave that 'problem' away with something like 'quantum information can not be completely identical' so you can't really have two completely identical souls, no matter how hard you tried. You could make a pretty convincing copy, but it'd still be a copy, and recognizably so for someone with all the necessary knowledge.
So, to TRULY bring someone back to life you'll have to summon a soul back from the afterlife, or retrieve it in some other way, and I don't think the process of Alchemy is actually able to do that. Is alchemy even capable of teleportation/summoning to begin with? I'd say yes, but you'd need a lot more knowledge than anyone in Amestris, Xerxes, or Xing actually had. You'd probably need the theory of special relativity to even try something like that, and even then I don't think that would be enough to summon a soul from the afterlife.
Even if you had the theory necessary, even if you had all the knowledge you needed, the law of equivalent exchange would probably stop you. For to gain something, something of equal value must be lost. What's equal to a person's soul? Another soul? Could you sacrifice one person to bring back another if you had the proper technique like they do in Naruto? Probably not. At least you wouldn't be able to if I was the one that wrote the story. Every soul is unique. One person is not equal to another. Every soul is uniquely valuable in a way bodies aren't. Ten souls for one? No. A hundred? No. Millions or billions? No.
There's nothing you can give that can balance this equation. I'm basically writing my own FMA fanfic at this point, I grant you, but it's what makes the most sense to me.
In the FMA verse you can resurrect someone as long as you have their soul, though it's difficult. Edd's and Alphonse's quest was possible because they still had their souls, and as difficult as bodies are to recreate it's not actually impossible. Edd even still had his DNA handy so it might actually have been somewhat realistic to grow him a new arm and foot. Maybe a master healer in Xing could have managed it if he'd gone there. Alphonse would have been more difficult, but if not his original body then it should have been possible to create something better than his armor - he'd essentially be turned into a special chimera. Though his physical body still existed within Edd's Gate, and his soul was clearly drawn to it, so that might have created some problems.
It was stated they could have achived their quest with a philosopher's stone, though they refused to use it because of their morals. That heavily implies using one gives the user access to more than just an enormous amount of energy. My interpretation is that soul-energy like that is just super easy to use - easy enough that creating whole bodies from scratch is actually doable even without DNA handy to act as the blueprint. Where the information is coming from then... Truth again, probably?
The point is that a theory like this ignores too much of the metaphysical aspects of FMA, going straight for the most materialist explanation possible. It's a theory I can easily see a whole bunch of Amestrian alchemists believe just for Edd, Al, or someone else suitably wise to disabuse them.
I mean, just the Ed escaping Gluttony is enough of a proof against a materialist explanation, really. If the argument is "The human body is too complex to accurately recreate using alchemy", then Ed doing exactly that to himself to get out of Gluttony proves it wrong. He effectively Star Trek'd not just himself, but also Ling and Envy (A homunculus, whose composition might not be identical to that of a human). Personally, if we're talking in terms of computational power, I think it might be likely that Alchemists are simply "programmers" and that Truth/the Gate of Truth acts like some sort of cloud computer/compiler that actually executes the "alchemical program". It would explain why losing the gate locks one out of using alchemy.
Im absolutely in love with this in depth fma analysis in the year of our lord 2024
The thing is, the story contradicts itself. Despite all its talk about souls having no determined worth, the Philosopher's Stone demonstrates that not to be true. It explicitly works by trading souls to fuel whatever alchemical process they try to use. The fact that Philosopher's Stones work and use up souls as they are used, based on the amount of alchemy they perform, means there has to be a value for a soul in alchemy. It may vary somewhat, but all souls must have a predefined worth; otherwise, a Philosopher's Stone could fundamentally not work or have a predictable rate of soul consumption.
@@randomdude6446 Or philosopher's stones doesn't 'use up' souls. It could just be that the crystalized souls are frozen in the material world until they're allowed to pass on, and that passing creates energy. Another possibility is that storing souls that way also takes all the life energy a person had at the point of soul extraction and THAT'S what's used up, and so they fade. That's how I'd have written it at least.
@@96ace96 Yeah, that would be a great explanation. The problem is that it's pure headcanon. In the story, it's directly stated that souls are used up. We also see Ed directly trade some of his life for alchemy explicitly by copying the process of a Philosopher's Stone. If that's true, then souls and life must have a specific worth, and not only that, they have a material equivalent to that worth rather than just a metaphysical value.
I would imagine that it is for similar reasons to why creating a whole new, albeit simpler lifeform from scratch is also impossible:
DNA is an extremely complex chemical compound that didn't arise all at once in a single chemical reaction. There's too much information stored, too many variables to consider and account for, that it's just not realistic by standards of FMA's setting. Perhaps far into the distant future for them, it might be possible. But that's speculation.
On the proton folding front, we lack such knowledge to understand Prion error
@@SkylerLinux protein folding is probably the biggest frontier in all of biology right now. The progress we’re making is amazing! But there’s obviously still a lot to do.
Which is exactly why you need to have contact with the Truth to make a human transmutation, the knowledge and skill you get from that sacrifice is a must to even attempt to make a human with alchemy
@@Zuh_Hybursa fair point! It leads to a chicken or egg scenario
in terms of the chimera, a dog and a human really are upwards of 99% similar at the fundamental level. more or less all the same proteins, same sell structures, almost the same DNA.
in your analogy, a human dog chimera might be equivalent of taking apart a Dell computer and a Mac and using a combination of the parts from both to make a working computer. Certainly impressive, but they are both mostly the same creature doing mostly the same things, and made out of the same components in a very similar way.
Ngl this is some high quality work
I’d certainly like to think so! Thanks for watching and commenting
When I saw the title I really thought you would consider the future possiilities more, e. g. if we can actually someday decipher all mysteries of the human body (I'd say no). Even if you make a perfect human body, you still have to create a perfect copy of the specific human brain as well or else he wouldn't think the same therefore not be the same person.
Unfortunately, you didn't mention the "adding a drop of blood for the data" once.
And as a proponent for determinism my answer to "what is the difference between a living being and a robot" is "just the complexity".
In Charles Stross' Laundry Files Series, you can sacrifice the information entropy of one thing (best not to think of the options) to increase the information entropy of another. Or, feed it to an interdimensional abomination to get its cooperation.
I have to admit I’m not familiar with that series, so I’m afraid I can’t contribute much to this particular discussion. But it sounds right up my alley. I may have to check it out. Thanks for watching and commenting!
This is amazing work, your channel really needs more views!
@@hashiramasenju5001 thank you so much! Glad you enjoyed!
The soul is simply an electrical charge, however how does one create electricity with transmutation? By converting mass into electricity. But even one atom is much more than the human body can handle, so the transmutation tries to add more mass from surrounding sources, hence the alchemist's injuries. But now there's excess mass that doesn't know where to go, so the product is randomised and mutated. Not to mention it isn't resurrecting, it's creating an entirely new life. There was a missing ingredient, Electricity.
These days we could MAYBE do something similar through cloning, though it's not certain. We can clone animals like sheep, but humans may be beyond what we can do for now. There are also the ethical implications of such an effort, we are nowhere near settling the ethics, never mind laws, surrounding that practice. As of now all we can do is modify what already exists. I'd say that even now things like CRISPR are miracle technologies. I imagine those in the world of FMA would give anything to be able to modify the human body.
I paused the video to type this out to see if my thoughts are similar
It is impossible because what is called "information of the soul" is impossible to replicate as it is a fourth dimensional object, experiential data of the subject, which cannot be shared between two individuals and attempting it, is essentially just busting into gods front door and the payment for infinite knowledge cannot be paid by a single being. Its why the truth claims the parts you pay with, if your payment results in all of your body being lost and soul, you essentially gain exactly what you asked for.. but lose your individuality and become part of the one that is all. But just like with everything else, it can be reclaimed.. in case of the elric brothers, the payment was Edward's gate of truth.
To try to create a person out of base components, you'd have to recreate their entire continuity.. which isn't possible. If it was lost to truth, you could trade for the whole person.. but you cannot create a copy of them.. it was a unique instance of a being in space/time and trying to create it like that would require omnipresence and omnipotence.. father wished for it too and he got it, too bad it also meant that he was reintegrated to god and lost his individuality.
The soul in FMA is just their current science's understanding of the mind and so is the series' human exceptionalism.
Mind and body are one and ours isn't that extraordinary when compared to some other species.
We now know that memories affect DNA and memories are often fickle and phantasmagorical.
How could you ever understand everything someone else felt and how those sensations reverberated through that person's life and choices?
How could you know a random step someone took 25 years ago changed their anatomy and they walk with a limp and that led to their entire gait changing to avoid pain? Would fixing that reconstruct the same person?
I would say that even with everything we know about the human body now, there's still enough about it that's still a mystery that even an alchemist with up to date 2024 human anatomy knowledge wouldn't be able to make a human being just on that merit alone.
@@Fayanora I would agree with you one hundred percent!
The >%1 is pretty important. For example B12 requires cobalt.
It is. Fortunately I wasn’t actually making a person, so I left off the full list of trace elements. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Good stuff! Keep it up my man.
@@nomas5082 I appreciate the encouragement! Got some new stuff coming soon
It is impossible if entropy is counted ☝️🤓
Beautifully said sir. It seems I fell for the Alchemists Lie
The problem isn't anatomy, it is information entropy. Thermal entropy in the body is low as energy is not evenly distributed. Information Entropy on the other hand is high as the unpredictable or meaningful content of the body structures is high. That is, all that organization is not easily predictable and is thus meaningful in an information theory way which is what Information Entropy measures. You can bring all the elements together, but arranging them into a meaningful whole takes a great deal of energy. The higher the information entropy of the final product the more energy that has to go into assembling it. This is actually true outside the story as assembling a computer takes much more energy than just combining the raw materials.
@@kimwelch4652 I’d argue that these are two sides of the same issue. My point was that to make a person, you need the knowledge of how a person is made, not just raw materials. Part of that is understanding cellular biology, part of it is anatomy, and part of it is the specifics of any individual. And a human body is a weird middle ground because there IS a level of predictability and hierarchy to it, but you’re absolutely right that there’s also a level of disorder. But all of that comes together to make the body way more complicated than a cannon or a radio and far out of the realm of possibility. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@singularitychannel823 It's not the knowledge of how the person is made, but the information embedded within the structure of the person. We don't build humans, but the process of gestation slowly over nine months imbues the body with the information it needs to organize itself. The term "unpredictable" is different from random. Choice is unpredictable, random is predictable within the bounds of probability. When we send a meaningful message, the meaningful content (as opposed to the purely structural elements) is unpredictable. If it is predictable even by probability, then it is not really meaningful and is not counted when measuring information entropy. Living things are full of meaning (high in information entropy) because their structure comes from choice rather than random events. The proteins that make up a cell are not random, but chosen to fit the chosen structure. This is a semiotic process and like the Interpretant of Charles Peirce, it's best not to think about what is doing the Interpretant-ing (i.e., choosing) unless you like going down rabbit holes.
So this makes sense why a human cannot be fully created, and why Al couldnhave been brought back because his entire physical being was brought into the Gate; but how come a humonculus can be using the same materials plus one Philosopher's stone? Are they essentially a separate species? And could the same be applied to recreating an animal's body since it is just as complicated to create?
@@PirvateerKurei I would indeed argue that homunculi aren’t fully human, and I think the show tends to support that. The concept of a homunculus who can age and grow was a huge shock to Greed when he found out about Bradley, so there are obviously some major differences. As for animals, yeah I’d say so! They obviously range in complexity, but a lot of them, including most mammals, would present the same issues. Unless you want to take the Shou Tucker Shortcut and do the alchemical equivalent of sewing two different colored blankets together. Thanks for watching and commenting!
On the one hand, I think you're on to something, since we NEVER see life of ANY kind transmuted from inanimate matter. We see transmutation BLENDING life forms, but never making them from scratch. On the other hand, however, we also see that you CAN'T make a 'speaking animal' without starting with a human. That indicates that this is actually a two-fold problem. You can't make life from inanimate material, regardless of the materials present, but you also can't make something sapient from non-sapient material, regardless of the materials present.
@@colinsmith1495 I think I’d agree with you here. Almost (and major emphasis on almost) every living transmutation in the series requires life as a starting point. Who knows, maybe vitalism is true in the world of FMA… but probably not. Thanks for watching and commenting!
In context of the anime, this analysis is weird. Transmutation occurs by gremlins in another dimension taking a thing and giving you a different thing. If those gremlins wanted to give you a living body, they could, but they’re stingy.
Wait really?
@@noneofyourbusiness4133 In the 03 anime that's pretty much how it works, Truth isn't a character there and the Gate has a pretty different function/ purpose.
I propose an argument regarding the knowledge the FMA world had regarding the human body. First would be truth providing more indepth knowledge about it. Second would be the access to alchemy itself. Using alchemy to study the body might allow a better understanding of the human body, although dna sequencing and the brain might still be an issue....
@@kazemizu It’s definitely feasible that they have more in-depth knowledge than we did in the 50s, but enough to build a body from scratch? That’s a bit of a stretch. Thanks for watching and commenting!
To be fair, there is one successful human transmutation in the series, with no philosophers stone, and I'm not counting trading Ed's Gate for Alphonse. Ed performed human transmutation on himself to stop the bleeding after the attack on the mines by Kimbley (right before Kimbley's chimeras decided to leave him and follow Ed, little before meeting Von Hoenheim and the first Pride fight). However if anything I feel as this actually IMPROVES the argument you make in your video, as Ed was only able to subvert the lack of anatomical knowledge because he was performing alchemy on his own body!
@@brendangallagher3030 that is probably a point I should’ve mentioned! But I agree with you. And there’s a HUGE difference between fixing an issue and rebuilding something from scratch. Thanks for watching and commenting!
You're mistaken about the Memories aspect, the Human brain is a Radio Receiver/Tranceiver, non localized memory storage is a given. Now you may counter that physical damage to the brain nullifies access to certain memories and while that is functionally true, you're not thinking of it like a Personal Computer, if I damage components within it, of course functionality will be reduced, that doesn't mean the PC isn't still connected to the Cloud.
You're close, but not quite there.
@@thephilosophersstoned3796 any model we use to explain the brain is going to be fundamentally flawed because it’s such a complex organ. I wasn’t trying to say that a human brain is just a memory machine. Just that everything we do/can do has to have some corresponding pattern. There is no ‘memory part’ of the brain, but it still has to be able to hold all of the millions of different tasks that we learn how to do. Which makes it many times more impressive than a transceiver or a PC! Thanks for watching and commenting!
I think it's both. The bodys complexity and the souls incomparable value.
I’d tend to agree with you. And maybe I should’ve made that clearer but there was just nowhere in the script for it. I think that the complexity is the FIRST hurdle, not the ONLY one. But obviously there’s something special about the soul in the world of FMA as well. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Shouldn’t some of these rules be bypassed with the gate of truth? I mean we saw that the gate provides impossible/forbidden knowledge that allows alchemists to do things that shouldn’t be possible, like using transmutation without a circle.
Sorta? The way I’ve always interpreted it is that Truth doesn’t break or bypass rules, it just gives people a deeper understanding of those rules. If you’ll remember, Ed isn’t using alchemy without a circle, he’s using his own body as the circle. It’s not necessarily cheat codes, as much as it’s having a more nuanced understanding of the nature and application of alchemy. BUT even if it does break the rules, that puts us in a ‘chicken or egg’ situation because the only (or main) way to access Truth is through failed human transmutation. Thanks for watching and commenting!
I dont think anyone can transmute it successfully even now. The majority of the human brain’s functions is not even determined yet. Every organ has its specialist, we have not even started about the attachment molecules of the antibodies of the immune system… how does one completely remember that in after one clap of the hands??? Maybe if transmutation was not as instantaneous….
@@hansgo1760 oh 100%. Even with our modern knowledge, the human body is still filled with mysteries. It’s one of the reasons that genetics is such a fascinating field! Thanks for watching and commenting!
Also note: the only reason human anatomy APPEARS to be infinitely complex to us is because we are humans.
Our limits are defined by the limits of anatomy, so it would be paradoxical to comprehend anatomy in its entirety.
Can you reword your comment? Am struggling to understand what you mean.
Anatomy is just the structure of bodies, even the anatomies of other animals are complex. Sure we have PHYSICAL limits because of our anatomy like how fast we can run or how strong we are, but our mental capabilities like our psychology and thoughts are beyond that.
A lot of the mysteries of the human body aren't exactly mysteries. Protein folding for example, we have a decent understanding of. The issue has more been the processing power required to simulate folding. There are still a few things to work out before we can predict it perfectly every time, but we're largely there. Same with the other aspects, like yawning we have a pretty decent idea on, but we cant definitively prove it. Consciousness is likely just emergent complexity. As far as we can tell, there would be no difference between a sufficiently advanced machine and our biological machine. How do you prove if an AI is conscious, or even other people? It's an open question.
Given enough time, I'd imagine the world of FMA would increasing come closer to human transmutation as they improved their actual understanding of the human body. They do seem aware of shortcuts they could take to speed things along, evidenced by the Manniquin Soldiers and the homunculi themselves.
There's definitely a difference between human-conscious and robot-conscious. Metacognition and awareness. Robots don't have the same self-awareness as we do to make their own decisions or even talk back to us unless we input that into their code.
This is how you find empirical proof for something being "conscious" aswell, that along with measuring it's brain activity, object permanence, and how it responds to "suffering" and pain.
@blueworld1825 those definitions work fine for current day robots and AI, which are pretty basic really, and not many people would seriously argue that they are conscious.
But what about more advanced ones? Data from Star Trek would demonstrate all of those aspects. Perhaps more than many humans do, especially on the metacognition side, and definitely more than some of the alien species who were considered sentient without question.
Various incarnations of Skynet would be an example of an AI without an obvious body that displays all those characteristics too. At least one demonstrated remorse and determined that its initial knee-jerk reaction to view humans as an existential threat to it was mistaken and subsequently made peace leading to a golden age, a pretty clear example of introspection that again, not all humans demonstrate well. You could make arguments that it's just a cost/benefit analysis, but that same argument could be applied to humans, leading back to the same spot.
How do you say one is, but not the other?
Everything but the sound quality is game theory level (i think your subject is and conclusion are better to)
@@salemalrez5513 I agree about the sound quality and am honored just to be compared to Game Theory. I’m not sure I’m quite there yet, but thank you!
Actually fmab takes on 1914 bec when u see Hughes grave it said he died 1914
Btw this video give me mat pat vibe
MatPat vibes might be the best compliment I could’ve gotten!
Yeah the 1910s-1920s are probably a closer analogy, but they also have more advanced prosthetics than we did, so it’s certainly not a one-to-one conversion. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Yet dogs are fair game.
Too soon, my dude. Too soon.
It flat out states that it is 1912
sick vid
@@rossclops1923 glad you enjoyed! Thanks for watching and commenting!
on the topic of proting Folding an A.I From Google appres to have solved it. if i remeber right it is call alphaFlod
so basically it's a skill issue
esword says transmutation is real.
More like pre-WW1 Germany level
That’s fair. I went with 1940s mostly just to nail down a date and give benefit of the doubt, but if I recall the mangaka said it was like a mix of the US and Germany at the turn of the century. Don’t quote me on that though! Thanks for watching and commenting!
FIRST COMMENT
I’d offer you a prize, but my philosopher’s stone isn’t working right now
@@singularitychannel823 lol I understand🤝🏾