people might have been confused, yes the laser can cut foil. but the last foils with the tiniest traces are actually cut by a blade. so the laser sucked vs my plotter blade... plotter wins in this case. hard to believer but true
Ok so laser is clearly off the table but (as you already suggested) you could try better focus and more passes at lower power but also I found my laser cuts wood much much better with an air blower attachment.
i could ad air assist. b8ut thats is usually used for cutting and not engraving. (like you do with wood) i am still not sure since the rest of the process is quite dirty :( i dont like it all that much. so far :) it was the first method to make coils for me ethcing and using my wax printer. pretty fast but.. still really dirty
So in terms of a diode laser plotter/cutter the main issue is how to properly make the coil stick to the cutting base? Have you tried your kitchen glue solution? I really would like to know what experiences you made with it.
kitchen glue ? never heard of that. problem is things heat up (most glues let go at higher temps) besides that , its not so usefull i already got smaller tolerances with the plotter.
if i can make the vacuum holding work. the laser wont stand a change :( in terms of (cleaner) use for sure :) and far less steps :) no painting not etching no cleaning etc
@@joppepeelen I meant that very weak glue you were using during your headphone project in order to have the coil just stick enough to not get ripped apart during cutting. Btw I just wanted to tell you that I really admire your projects and effort. I'm currently building my own planar open-back headphone and your video-blogs really help getting forward. Originally I cut the coils by hand. Which was not only inefficient, but had a high rate of failure too... and well even with a calm hand its too easy to once cut too far and mess up. Hence why I tried using a 22W laser but the only success I was having so far was to completely cut through the painted aluminium tape ... and unfortunately the very fine traces of the coil (.5mm in thickness) literally melted together when using 80% power xD Further experiments are yet to be made
wel they did not thats my guess, they outsourced it to a factory that is capable of doing it :) i am not interested to buy thousands of euros of equipment to make it happen :) since i hate etching and im just a dude making planars :)
@@joppepeelen Yes, they are probably outsourcing :) Another one that's interesting, the Børresen tweeter. They claim 1/100th gram , at 9:20 min /watch?v=NvKDoFq5Lq4
have you tried setting it up in raster etching as opposed to vector cutting, than setting up the coil diagonally as oppose to parallel to the beam in that way maybe the coil wont get hot enough to bend and deform, where I am going with this is basically setting up the laser beam to chip away the foil instead of cutting it directly and reflecting back, by the way this is an impressive result do you think it will work with a kiss cut machine
oh yeah i was thinking about deflecting it but then again i dont want to cut the alu, i wanted to try just for fun an gigles :) for my use its ... not that usefull. what is a kiss machine ?
Hi. Regarding using normal plotter machines: I found out that a regular plotter like a Silhouette Portrait 3 isn't suitable enough for those tiny cuts. Probably because the blade just gets pulled over the foil, increasing the risk of ripping it or not being able to cut consistently enough. This still seems to be an ok method if you are fine with many passes with increasing force steps for a larger coil (>1mm track size and spacing). But still I'd say there's at least a 70-80% chance some spots won't cut and need to be cut manually. So all in all regular plotters seem to be a waste of time or my unit simply sucks (I've used a brand new blade btw). So I'm going to try a CNC method soon to hopefully be able to reach my desired track size of 0.5mm with an 0.5mm spacing. Do you think thats well feasable with a thicker foil as well (around 20 micron I guess)? And which CNC software(s) do you use/recommend using?
0.5 might be to thin, i am afraid. and yes a flat bed plotter is more usefull then a silhouete. there is a video where i only use the cut width of the blade it self as spacing. ruclips.net/video/0PPart_Tnss/видео.html thats your best bet i think. but you need to use extra cutting weight/force . more then you would for a decent cut. the idea is the blade will cut further into the foil and mat, creating a space in between traces.
But if the blade is a very spikey one, lets say 25° or less and you start with low force and gradually increase it per pass, could it work? Thanks for the help man. 🙏 But what's the software you use for CNC cutting/plotting?
@@joppepeelenBtw it seems that the link you just posted doesn't work (at least on my phone) 🤔 or maybe its just another bug in the RUclips App not sure. I'll check it on my PC in a sec. Thanks again for the ideas and help man! Your content is gold!
For the vacuum: in industrial cutters table are made of felt about 4-5mm thick and under the felt are perforated metal sheets for vacuum suction to get through felt and hold materials that are cutted. Maybe you can create small frame and try to simulate above? P.S. go with another headphones :)
thanks ! i was thinking of drilling many holes into a cutting mat on a box (covered with thick paint or something on mdf) or directly on mdf since you can suck a vacuum through mdf... but im worried it does not cut nice on mdf :)
It evaporates the paint and takes the alu with it. without it it wont be able to cut alu , not even close. my text in the video missed the paint part :) (editor crashed) and yes i dont mean a scope haha something like a magnifier... i got one of those cheap zoom cameras usb.. but the frame rate and image quality sucks so... ill just dont care how wide the distance between traces are. as long as it works
@@joppepeelen Perfect! I already guessed that its most likely a CNC. I've received my very first actual plotter today but could only achieve bad to ok results using the aluminium foil tape. I will conduct further experiments. What do you think: if I stick the aluminium foil side of the tape to the cutting math (or base) and cut through the paper side of it with the plotter from the top ... could it work?
Oh could, i have alu tape with a thin pe backing and do the same i cut it then remove the backing of the traces theb stick the mylar to it and remove it from the mat. You could try
I think it was better without 20 secs of the introduction ) But it's good for new visitors. So, I'm not sure PS And yeah.. What about making a compression driver with using these membranes? Nobody else made this afaik, but in this case many limitations will go away (as I see this in my head).
yeah im not into horns to be fair :) im not sure if they can muster the drive needed , and yes the intro is long :) i know. felt like not using it for a while. but i did use it for 1/3 of the videos. i might shorten it or remove it again.. not sure. i want to show new visitors whats it all about. at the same time iritate people that watch it for a few years .. not my plan but thats what happens :) haha
@@joppepeelen I suppose that when you have a chamber for a sound inside the driver, you can play with magnets in a free way, not limited with a necessity to allow an air flow freely, concerning a linearity of a magnetic field and an efficiency. You'll get a better directivity, lower distortions (because of a minimal movement). I'm thinking about how to incorporate a big emitting area with a high acoustic impedance at a throat hole. May be by making a "sandwich" with two opposite panels, enclosed at one side.. A point source is good (a horn makes a virtual source point). You can unwrap it later with a cone if you want. A panel dipole is not good. )
my DAP pnale ressembles a point source rather ok. not far worse then a random dapolito setup. it can always be better , but not many horn loaded tweeters can play down to 350 either :) so they use 2 drivers just like i did :)
I mentioned this in the last vid, but.. You could attach a 405nm single mode diode and those can focus to a very tiny dot. Then use pc circuit board positive photoresist on the foil and any part hit with the beam will dissolve in the developer. Then etch as usual. It should be possible to get very clean and very tiny etched lines (Wikipedia says 0.5 µm) this way, albeit with a little more effort. Could also use Negative resist but then you have to fully expose all the copper you want instead.
![OhGeesy x Lefty Gunplay - What It Iz [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/L0yzW9t2ixk/mqdefault.jpg)
people might have been confused, yes the laser can cut foil. but the last foils with the tiniest traces are actually cut by a blade. so the laser sucked vs my plotter blade... plotter wins in this case. hard to believer but true
Good to know!
Ok so laser is clearly off the table but (as you already suggested) you could try better focus and more passes at lower power but also I found my laser cuts wood much much better with an air blower attachment.
i could ad air assist. b8ut thats is usually used for cutting and not engraving. (like you do with wood) i am still not sure since the rest of the process is quite dirty :( i dont like it all that much. so far :) it was the first method to make coils for me ethcing and using my wax printer. pretty fast but.. still really dirty
So in terms of a diode laser plotter/cutter the main issue is how to properly make the coil stick to the cutting base? Have you tried your kitchen glue solution? I really would like to know what experiences you made with it.
kitchen glue ? never heard of that. problem is things heat up (most glues let go at higher temps) besides that , its not so usefull i already got smaller tolerances with the plotter.
if i can make the vacuum holding work. the laser wont stand a change :( in terms of (cleaner) use for sure :) and far less steps :) no painting not etching no cleaning etc
@@joppepeelen I meant that very weak glue you were using during your headphone project in order to have the coil just stick enough to not get ripped apart during cutting.
Btw I just wanted to tell you that I really admire your projects and effort. I'm currently building my own planar open-back headphone and your video-blogs really help getting forward.
Originally I cut the coils by hand. Which was not only inefficient, but had a high rate of failure too... and well even with a calm hand its too easy to once cut too far and mess up. Hence why I tried using a 22W laser but the only success I was having so far was to completely cut through the painted aluminium tape ... and unfortunately the very fine traces of the coil (.5mm in thickness) literally melted together when using 80% power xD Further experiments are yet to be made
Big question - how did Piega do it?? they almost look like a PCB!
wel they did not thats my guess, they outsourced it to a factory that is capable of doing it :) i am not interested to buy thousands of euros of equipment to make it happen :) since i hate etching and im just a dude making planars :)
willing to try but there is a limit :)
@@joppepeelen Yes, they are probably outsourcing :)
Another one that's interesting, the Børresen tweeter. They claim 1/100th gram , at 9:20 min /watch?v=NvKDoFq5Lq4
have you tried setting it up in raster etching as opposed to vector cutting, than setting up the coil diagonally as oppose to parallel to the beam in that way maybe the coil wont get hot enough to bend and deform, where I am going with this is basically setting up the laser beam to chip away the foil instead of cutting it directly and reflecting back, by the way this is an impressive result do you think it will work with a kiss cut machine
oh yeah i was thinking about deflecting it but then again i dont want to cut the alu, i wanted to try just for fun an gigles :) for my use its ... not that usefull. what is a kiss machine ?
a home sticker cutter machine like ' brother scan and cut cm300 ' instead of the plotter @@joppepeelen
Hi. Regarding using normal plotter machines: I found out that a regular plotter like a Silhouette Portrait 3 isn't suitable enough for those tiny cuts. Probably because the blade just gets pulled over the foil, increasing the risk of ripping it or not being able to cut consistently enough. This still seems to be an ok method if you are fine with many passes with increasing force steps for a larger coil (>1mm track size and spacing). But still I'd say there's at least a 70-80% chance some spots won't cut and need to be cut manually. So all in all regular plotters seem to be a waste of time or my unit simply sucks (I've used a brand new blade btw).
So I'm going to try a CNC method soon to hopefully be able to reach my desired track size of 0.5mm with an 0.5mm spacing. Do you think thats well feasable with a thicker foil as well (around 20 micron I guess)? And which CNC software(s) do you use/recommend using?
0.5 might be to thin, i am afraid. and yes a flat bed plotter is more usefull then a silhouete. there is a video where i only use the cut width of the blade it self as spacing.
ruclips.net/video/0PPart_Tnss/видео.html
thats your best bet i think. but you need to use extra cutting weight/force . more then you would for a decent cut. the idea is the blade will cut further into the foil and mat, creating a space in between traces.
But if the blade is a very spikey one, lets say 25° or less and you start with low force and gradually increase it per pass, could it work?
Thanks for the help man. 🙏 But what's the software you use for CNC cutting/plotting?
@@joppepeelenBtw it seems that the link you just posted doesn't work (at least on my phone) 🤔 or maybe its just another bug in the RUclips App not sure. I'll check it on my PC in a sec.
Thanks again for the ideas and help man! Your content is gold!
no problem else search for plot cut foils on my channel and you wil find it, it was a recent one
For the vacuum: in industrial cutters table are made of felt about 4-5mm thick and under the felt are perforated metal sheets for vacuum suction to get through felt and hold materials that are cutted. Maybe you can create small frame and try to simulate above?
P.S. go with another headphones :)
thanks ! i was thinking of drilling many holes into a cutting mat on a box (covered with thick paint or something on mdf) or directly on mdf since you can suck a vacuum through mdf... but im worried it does not cut nice on mdf :)
It evaporates the paint and takes the alu with it. without it it wont be able to cut alu , not even close. my text in the video missed the paint part :) (editor crashed) and yes i dont mean a scope haha something like a magnifier... i got one of those cheap zoom cameras usb.. but the frame rate and image quality sucks so... ill just dont care how wide the distance between traces are. as long as it works
Btw which plotter did you use to make the .6mm coil?
my old cnc with a roland blade holder on it. the one i use 99% of the times
@@joppepeelen Perfect! I already guessed that its most likely a CNC. I've received my very first actual plotter today but could only achieve bad to ok results using the aluminium foil tape. I will conduct further experiments. What do you think: if I stick the aluminium foil side of the tape to the cutting math (or base) and cut through the paper side of it with the plotter from the top ... could it work?
Oh could, i have alu tape with a thin pe backing and do the same i cut it then remove the backing of the traces theb stick the mylar to it and remove it from the mat. You could try
I think it was better without 20 secs of the introduction ) But it's good for new visitors. So, I'm not sure
PS And yeah.. What about making a compression driver with using these membranes? Nobody else made this afaik, but in this case many limitations will go away (as I see this in my head).
yeah im not into horns to be fair :) im not sure if they can muster the drive needed , and yes the intro is long :) i know. felt like not using it for a while. but i did use it for 1/3 of the videos. i might shorten it or remove it again.. not sure. i want to show new visitors whats it all about. at the same time iritate people that watch it for a few years .. not my plan but thats what happens :) haha
@@joppepeelen I suppose that when you have a chamber for a sound inside the driver, you can play with magnets in a free way, not limited with a necessity to allow an air flow freely, concerning a linearity of a magnetic field and an efficiency. You'll get a better directivity, lower distortions (because of a minimal movement). I'm thinking about how to incorporate a big emitting area with a high acoustic impedance at a throat hole. May be by making a "sandwich" with two opposite panels, enclosed at one side.. A point source is good (a horn makes a virtual source point). You can unwrap it later with a cone if you want. A panel dipole is not good. )
@@sc0or panel can be a point source to :) if you make things small enough :)
my DAP pnale ressembles a point source rather ok. not far worse then a random dapolito setup. it can always be better , but not many horn loaded tweeters can play down to 350 either :) so they use 2 drivers just like i did :)
@@joppepeelen Yes, exactly. If you're talking about these rather compact panels, then "yes". I meant those 1 meter panels.
A thermal camera and some current in the coil would allow you to see coil shorts.
nice one ! then again if you know what the coil should measure after a while its fine to :) cant afford a FLIR :(
Sweet effort as usual. :)
thanks
I mentioned this in the last vid, but.. You could attach a 405nm single mode diode and those can focus to a very tiny dot. Then use pc circuit board positive photoresist on the foil and any part hit with the beam will dissolve in the developer. Then etch as usual. It should be possible to get very clean and very tiny etched lines (Wikipedia says 0.5 µm) this way, albeit with a little more effort.
Could also use Negative resist but then you have to fully expose all the copper you want instead.
this is a 500 nm i believe. i thinkg glass work (lens etc) is the biggest reason. for both of them.. why it never reaches 5 micron...
9:20 Алюминий можно травить щёлочью.
Aluminum can be etched with alkali.
i know how to etch alu :) thats not the problem. copper sulfate or feric chloride. problem is getting small enough traces