Agreed. I've been using camera packs and hunting packs. The lowepro tactic series works great for me. You can prewire an entire station in a camera pack. The padded partitions keep everything in place. I place the radio head in the top access compartment. Then you can operate the radio with just a small opening for the antenna coax. Super quick to setup and breakdown.
I walked from Georgia to Maine with an Osprey Volt 60 and used it for many years after. When it finally wore out Osprey replaced it for free. Pretty hard to beat.
I have several Osprey bags, they are amazing! Quality is top notch, they're very light weight, and super comfortable to wear. Recommend them over everything else.
Another fine video, Michael. Thanks. Watching you show the features of the 2 packs I would say the tactical was better with the sole exception of the abominable single strap. Keep up the great work. 73. Thanks again.
I use a 5.11 Rush24 tactical backpack, very tough, nice padding. I got some aluminium strip a couple of inches wide and made a simple frame to go inside to which I attached my IC705 in its Peovi frame. Plenty of room for all the other kit, tuner, batteries, cables etc.
To hell with shouldered bags!, I cycle to locations for portable operating, my bicycle has two panniers that transport everything I need, no aching shoulders, no sweating back, boom!! It works for me. 😁
Great video!! I literally just ordered a sling pack less than an hour ago. lol. Not planning on using it for my radio gear. More of a car > 50' > picnic table kinda thing like you mentioned. Small enough that I'm not going to try and put the kitchen sink in there. Appreciate your channel!!!! 73!
I with you. I have a sling bag with some emergency supplies. It's handy for leaving in one place full of supplies. But try to carry it any distance and you end up with a hand on it to keep it still. Or use the waist strap to hold it from bouncing. Maybe it's good if you're in and out of it all the time, but to carry things to a place, it's unpleasant.
Sling packs are light duty. I used a Maxpedition Jumbo on the last hump up Hot Springs Mountain for a SOTA a couple years ago. It was what I had with me. That was an activation with the KX1 and an EFRW, so the load was light. It worked fine. I have an Osprey Stratos 22l that I really like, except that I don't really need the hip belt for a 22l loadout and I tend to have a lot of equipment on my belt. The ventilation is excellent on the Stratos, better than anything else I've tried. So, as much as I like the pack, I don't use it much. I bought a Molle II Patrol Pack (1980's milsurp and hard to find) early this year. It's about a 25l pack (no hip belt) with good padding on the straps and enough PALS webbing to hang a couple of pouches from. I'm hiking with the dog and carrying this pack daily. I have not done a radio loadout with it yet, but it would carry any of my QRP rigs and I could probably get the 857D or 891 in it with a 15Ah battery. There would be room left for sustainment and emergency supplies, I think. Water is a big deal here in western Nevada, so I carry at least a liter and generally two liters. The tactical packs *can* work just fine, particularly with a few MOLLE pouches attached for small items. The trick is to find the right pack and make sure that the harness works for the application. I actually think one could make a milsurp ALICE pack work for radio. The current crop of milsurp "3-Day Assault Packs" don't have enough strap padding for me. They are fine for light loads, but when loaded out with water and support gear they dig into my shoulders. Eberlestock packs rock! They are not cheap, though. Leave the sling packs for light loads. You (and me) need a backpack to carry a station to the field anything past a park bench.
I recently kickstarted the new, improved Bag of Holding (formerly a staple of the late lamented ThinkGeek's offerings, one of the few things they offered that was actually practical!), and it arrived about two months ago. I've been experimenting with it as a carry-bag for radio as well as other things. So far, my main issue with it is that "Bag of Holding" does not mean "Bag of Antigravity" -- it's voluminous, but easy to over-stuff! I also think that its backpack straps could use a chest-cinch strap. I haven't tried carrying the bigger radio (FT-710) in it yet, but I did recently stuff it full of a day's change of clothes, toiletries, a Maxpedition bag with both a Hermes Lite 2 and a QMX in it (along with their cables), and a 6Ah BioEnno, along with the everyday stuff I have in there (charging cables, charger, Anker 27Ah power bank, laptop, tablet). It worked, but again, the end result definitely had heft to it!
@@KB9VBRAntennas For others who happen across this video in the future, the Bag of Holding is now available at retail. Rollacrit is the company who did the Kickstarter and is producing the bags now.
5.11 Jr Range bag is nearly tailor made for my 705. My SBR bag worked out perfectly for my MPAS 2.0 antenna. Not all “tacticool” bags are the same 🤷🏽♂️ Great video 👌🏽
It seems the main gripe with tactical bags is not the bag itself, but the sling style strap. I'm with you on that. I like padded shoulder straps, a hip belt, and chest strap to ensure the pack stays squarely on my back while I'm hiking. What is the weight of all the gear you are packing in the Osprey? I'm hoping you do a future video on how well it holds up with use. I'm using a 5.11 Rush 12 (24L) tactical bag with an added hip belt. I like that it's durable and provides some protection to my equipment. I am using the MOLLE webbing to add a bag for first aid, and a bottle holder to drop my mast into. The capacity gives me plenty of room for my IC-705 and cage, an accessory bag for mic, cables, adapters, etc., a Surface Go laptop, an EFHW, and Bioenno 6ah battery. With that gear I still have plenty of room for clothing layers, rain gear, and food/snacks. I am using an internal water bladder as well. People seem to either love or hate internal bladders. I like them because of the ease of carrying and access to water while I'm hiking.
The heaviest item is the FT-891 which weight about 4.2 lbs. The loaded pack is 11 lbs, which isn't light, but not terribly heavy either. If I was going to hike any distance, I'd substitute the rig for my lighter FT-817, lose the tuner, and carry a resonant antenna with me.
I totally agree!!! I recently bought an Osprey Mutant 22 to use for SOTA and it is lightyears better! The waist belt means the bag rides more confortably, and the features are just overall better. 73, K8JLW
I have the Osprey Manta 30, and I like how the waist belt with the side pockets shifts a lot of the weight to my hips instead of solely on my shoulders & back. 73 KD5YOU
As a bit of a lightweight backpacker/hiker, tactical bags do indeed suck. Lots of emergency preparedness/survivalist guys love to tout about the greatness of 1000 denier nylon bags but while ridiculously durable, the reality is that they are just too darn heavy, their suspension system often sucks, they don't breathe, and while they look cool and have lots of storage pockets they just aren't practical. Osprey are great packs and they have an incredible warranty. I have an Osprey Atmos 65L and the suspension is incredible. 40lbs on the back feels like 20, I swear lol. To that end, I ended up picking up an Osprey Stratos 24 daypack a few years ago and it works great for QRP activations when I hike in and it also worked great for walking around Dayton. The suspension, breathability, and light weight material is perfect. 73.
This ^^^^^ I went from a tactical sling bag to a 42L tac pack... Cost a whopping $30. Yeah it oversized for what I really need, but I also don't have to stuff everything in. Gives me plenty of room, plus some for anyone extra for "special occasions". And it is so much more comfortable. Did I mention it was only $30 😁
camera backpacks are very good to protect your equipment and are well thought as well for your back. I do have the same slingshot tactical for qrp and some food, great for light weight
I have and enjoy a Mystery Ranch - Catalyst 26. It was a bit spendy, but man is it good. Plenty of pockets. Plenty of room, though that makes it tempting to fill up and make heavy. Dedicated space for my laptop, and opens up wide to make access easy.
tactical bags don't suck if you get a name brand pack with good stitching and molle. I have a sitka maxpedition sling bag that I use as my daily that I have also hiked in but I find myself going back to my 5.11 Rush 12 bag as it has more room for the gear I want to carry. A good tac backpack is going to have a slot for a camelback or other water reservoir so it eliminates the need for a water bottle. I am sure you know this but wear your bag high and tight. It lessens fatigue.
That pack looks like a good size, yet not so big you are going to take the whole shack with you. I definitely like the idea of two shoulder straps, the sling style would tend to cause one shoulder to be sore, whereas this bag distributes the weight more evenly.
I have 2 tactical packs that I like to use. Unfortunately, I cannot find the tag with the part numbers or who made them. Suffice it to say that I have had them for over 5 years, and I use one for hunting and the other for radios. I can switch depending on how many radios and what type, which determines if I use the hunting pack or not. Thanks for saving someone some money Michael.
Osprey makes a great pack. Your Talon will serve you well for years to come. I often carry my 891 and supporting gear in my Osprey Daylite Plus. I also have the tactical style packs too. But they are used mostly for storage. Their more squared design makes them nice for storage, not as nice for hiking.
The Daylite Plus looks like a really nice bag, and I'd certainly consider it if I was going into work each day. The Talon has a lot of dangly bits that might not be good for commuting.
I had a sling bag, one strap. Notice the past tense. One rule of tactical packs.....the larger they are encourages one to fill them up. Don't take the kitchen sink with you. I think your red bag is about the right capacity. My current 2 strap bag is 30L and is about correctly sized.
I wouldn't say that tactical bags suck, I'd say that $20 Amazon "tacticool" sling bags suck. My 5.11 Rush bag works quite well for me. A Mystery Ranch bag would probably be amazing.
I have that pack! I use it for day hiking. Great pack. I never thought about using it for portable ops. I love it for hiking though. I currently use a couple Husky 5 gal tubs for POTA. I also have a small sling pack, smaller than your black one, that I use for geocaching. It sucks too. It always slides off my shoulder.
I think carrying bags run the gamut and are very personal but if I were in the market for one I’d have to consider the explorer series at Gigaparts since it’s configured for ham radio with all the custom radio bags.
My biggest complaint with Osprey bags is the useless hip belt pockets. They are too far back to be really useful. But my wife(Mira22), both kids (Hikelite 18 & HydraJet12) and myself(Manta 24)all have Osprey bags for hiking. My wife and I also have larger Aura AG 65L & Aether 65L Osprey backpacks. Other than that, we love them.
I got in the same trap. Found a 'nice' tactical bag, only in OD, and a sling bag. Was great in the store walking around with it empty. Not so comfortable loaded with gear
Another great video, Michael. But, i noticed you dont have your laptop packed in the bag. Is that an oversight, or is there a reason you dont have it in the bag? 73s
Maybe a bit of an oversight. The laptop doesn't live in the bag, so I neglected it. The Osprey has a hydration pocket that a thin notebook computer could fit in, otherwise it would slide in with the rest of the gear.
Can't see point in slingbag in radio but can be good in photography as you don't have to get bag off your back to take out a camera just pull it around the front
One thing to consider before you discount the entire style is that sling bags often can be more comfortable for women, who are shaped differently than you or me. That said, the particular example you have does indeed look terrible, with a severely under-constructed strap for its capacity and a lazily-designed symmetric box for the pack that doesn’t match the asymmetric carrying system. The actually good sling packs are also unlikely to be marketed as “tactical”, as again, they’re largely made for women and most of them find that particular marketing ploy exactly as stupid as it is. :P My own 100W POTA kit is an FT-891 in a Mountainsmith Day lumber pack.
I will agree, there are some very good sling packs on the market, this isn't one of them. In my day what you are describing was called a fanny pack. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
@@KB9VBRAntennas I still call it a fanny pack too, but figured I should use the modern marketing for anyone wanting to look it up :P Fanny packs are super practical - no sweaty back problems in the summer!
I had a belt bag/fanny pack when I was nordic skiing, and I really liked it. It lowered the center of gravity, making the more technical trail segments a lot easier.
Michael, this is one of those RUclips that does nothing for the viewer but it generates revenue for you. This has very little value for those of us who watched it. If you’re going to do a RUclips on something like this, please tell us about the ones you recommend not the ones that you do like of which there could be many.
Agreed. I've been using camera packs and hunting packs. The lowepro tactic series works great for me. You can prewire an entire station in a camera pack. The padded partitions keep everything in place. I place the radio head in the top access compartment. Then you can operate the radio with just a small opening for the antenna coax. Super quick to setup and breakdown.
Hell yeah!
I walked from Georgia to Maine with an Osprey Volt 60 and used it
for many years after. When it finally wore out Osprey replaced it
for free. Pretty hard to beat.
That’s a really impressive walk!
Good choice! My favorite is a 22L Osprey Talon. As you mentioned, the back ventilation and strap systems are outstanding on these packs.
I have several Osprey bags, they are amazing! Quality is top notch, they're very light weight, and super comfortable to wear. Recommend them over everything else.
Another fine video, Michael. Thanks. Watching you show the features of the 2 packs I would say the tactical was better with the sole exception of the abominable single strap. Keep up the great work. 73. Thanks again.
Agree on the sling pack. I have one. Good for car to office and car to house, but hard on the back if wearing it all day.
I use a 5.11 Rush24 tactical backpack, very tough, nice padding. I got some aluminium strip a couple of inches wide and made a simple frame to go inside to which I attached my IC705 in its Peovi frame. Plenty of room for all the other kit, tuner, batteries, cables etc.
To hell with shouldered bags!, I cycle to locations for portable operating, my bicycle has two panniers that transport everything I need, no aching shoulders, no sweating back, boom!! It works for me. 😁
That's the way to roll. I hate backpacks on a bike, they mess up your center of gravity.
Great video!! I literally just ordered a sling pack less than an hour ago. lol. Not planning on using it for my radio gear. More of a car > 50' > picnic table kinda thing like you mentioned. Small enough that I'm not going to try and put the kitchen sink in there. Appreciate your channel!!!! 73!
I with you. I have a sling bag with some emergency supplies. It's handy for leaving in one place full of supplies. But try to carry it any distance and you end up with a hand on it to keep it still. Or use the waist strap to hold it from bouncing. Maybe it's good if you're in and out of it all the time, but to carry things to a place, it's unpleasant.
Sling packs are light duty. I used a Maxpedition Jumbo on the last hump up Hot Springs Mountain for a SOTA a couple years ago. It was what I had with me. That was an activation with the KX1 and an EFRW, so the load was light. It worked fine.
I have an Osprey Stratos 22l that I really like, except that I don't really need the hip belt for a 22l loadout and I tend to have a lot of equipment on my belt. The ventilation is excellent on the Stratos, better than anything else I've tried. So, as much as I like the pack, I don't use it much.
I bought a Molle II Patrol Pack (1980's milsurp and hard to find) early this year. It's about a 25l pack (no hip belt) with good padding on the straps and enough PALS webbing to hang a couple of pouches from. I'm hiking with the dog and carrying this pack daily. I have not done a radio loadout with it yet, but it would carry any of my QRP rigs and I could probably get the 857D or 891 in it with a 15Ah battery. There would be room left for sustainment and emergency supplies, I think.
Water is a big deal here in western Nevada, so I carry at least a liter and generally two liters.
The tactical packs *can* work just fine, particularly with a few MOLLE pouches attached for small items. The trick is to find the right pack and make sure that the harness works for the application. I actually think one could make a milsurp ALICE pack work for radio.
The current crop of milsurp "3-Day Assault Packs" don't have enough strap padding for me. They are fine for light loads, but when loaded out with water and support gear they dig into my shoulders.
Eberlestock packs rock! They are not cheap, though.
Leave the sling packs for light loads. You (and me) need a backpack to carry a station to the field anything past a park bench.
I recently kickstarted the new, improved Bag of Holding (formerly a staple of the late lamented ThinkGeek's offerings, one of the few things they offered that was actually practical!), and it arrived about two months ago. I've been experimenting with it as a carry-bag for radio as well as other things. So far, my main issue with it is that "Bag of Holding" does not mean "Bag of Antigravity" -- it's voluminous, but easy to over-stuff! I also think that its backpack straps could use a chest-cinch strap. I haven't tried carrying the bigger radio (FT-710) in it yet, but I did recently stuff it full of a day's change of clothes, toiletries, a Maxpedition bag with both a Hermes Lite 2 and a QMX in it (along with their cables), and a 6Ah BioEnno, along with the everyday stuff I have in there (charging cables, charger, Anker 27Ah power bank, laptop, tablet). It worked, but again, the end result definitely had heft to it!
I checked out that bag, I love the DnD reference. I used to have a messenger bag that big and you can certainly stuff a lot of into it.
@@KB9VBRAntennas For others who happen across this video in the future, the Bag of Holding is now available at retail. Rollacrit is the company who did the Kickstarter and is producing the bags now.
5.11 Jr Range bag is nearly tailor made for my 705. My SBR bag worked out perfectly for my MPAS 2.0 antenna. Not all “tacticool” bags are the same 🤷🏽♂️ Great video 👌🏽
It seems the main gripe with tactical bags is not the bag itself, but the sling style strap. I'm with you on that. I like padded shoulder straps, a hip belt, and chest strap to ensure the pack stays squarely on my back while I'm hiking. What is the weight of all the gear you are packing in the Osprey? I'm hoping you do a future video on how well it holds up with use.
I'm using a 5.11 Rush 12 (24L) tactical bag with an added hip belt. I like that it's durable and provides some protection to my equipment. I am using the MOLLE webbing to add a bag for first aid, and a bottle holder to drop my mast into. The capacity gives me plenty of room for my IC-705 and cage, an accessory bag for mic, cables, adapters, etc., a Surface Go laptop, an EFHW, and Bioenno 6ah battery. With that gear I still have plenty of room for clothing layers, rain gear, and food/snacks. I am using an internal water bladder as well. People seem to either love or hate internal bladders. I like them because of the ease of carrying and access to water while I'm hiking.
The heaviest item is the FT-891 which weight about 4.2 lbs. The loaded pack is 11 lbs, which isn't light, but not terribly heavy either. If I was going to hike any distance, I'd substitute the rig for my lighter FT-817, lose the tuner, and carry a resonant antenna with me.
I totally agree!!! I recently bought an Osprey Mutant 22 to use for SOTA and it is lightyears better! The waist belt means the bag rides more confortably, and the features are just overall better. 73, K8JLW
I have the Osprey Manta 30, and I like how the waist belt with the side pockets shifts a lot of the weight to my hips instead of solely on my shoulders & back. 73 KD5YOU
Another great explanatory video Michael!
As a bit of a lightweight backpacker/hiker, tactical bags do indeed suck. Lots of emergency preparedness/survivalist guys love to tout about the greatness of 1000 denier nylon bags but while ridiculously durable, the reality is that they are just too darn heavy, their suspension system often sucks, they don't breathe, and while they look cool and have lots of storage pockets they just aren't practical. Osprey are great packs and they have an incredible warranty. I have an Osprey Atmos 65L and the suspension is incredible. 40lbs on the back feels like 20, I swear lol. To that end, I ended up picking up an Osprey Stratos 24 daypack a few years ago and it works great for QRP activations when I hike in and it also worked great for walking around Dayton. The suspension, breathability, and light weight material is perfect.
73.
Hello! Hard case bags and a foldable wagon will do it. There’s even a foldable wagon that turns into a bench . 73!
Tactical slingbags are terrible, but a properly supported tactical backpack is awesome. I use them for everything.
This ^^^^^
I went from a tactical sling bag to a 42L tac pack... Cost a whopping $30. Yeah it oversized for what I really need, but I also don't have to stuff everything in. Gives me plenty of room, plus some for anyone extra for "special occasions". And it is so much more comfortable. Did I mention it was only $30 😁
camera backpacks are very good to protect your equipment and are well thought as well for your back. I do have the same slingshot tactical for qrp and some food, great for light weight
I have and enjoy a Mystery Ranch - Catalyst 26. It was a bit spendy, but man is it good. Plenty of pockets. Plenty of room, though that makes it tempting to fill up and make heavy. Dedicated space for my laptop, and opens up wide to make access easy.
tactical bags don't suck if you get a name brand pack with good stitching and molle. I have a sitka maxpedition sling bag that I use as my daily that I have also hiked in but I find myself going back to my 5.11 Rush 12 bag as it has more room for the gear I want to carry. A good tac backpack is going to have a slot for a camelback or other water reservoir so it eliminates the need for a water bottle. I am sure you know this but wear your bag high and tight. It lessens fatigue.
That pack looks like a good size, yet not so big you are going to take the whole shack with you. I definitely like the idea of two shoulder straps, the sling style would tend to cause one shoulder to be sore, whereas this bag distributes the weight more evenly.
I have 2 tactical packs that I like to use. Unfortunately, I cannot find the tag with the part numbers or who made them. Suffice it to say that I have had them for over 5 years, and I use one for hunting and the other for radios. I can switch depending on how many radios and what type, which determines if I use the hunting pack or not. Thanks for saving someone some money Michael.
Osprey makes a great pack. Your Talon will serve you well for years to come.
I often carry my 891 and supporting gear in my Osprey Daylite Plus. I also have the tactical style packs too. But they are used mostly for storage. Their more squared design makes them nice for storage, not as nice for hiking.
The Daylite Plus looks like a really nice bag, and I'd certainly consider it if I was going into work each day. The Talon has a lot of dangly bits that might not be good for commuting.
I had a sling bag, one strap. Notice the past tense. One rule of tactical packs.....the larger they are encourages one to fill them up. Don't take the kitchen sink with you. I think your red bag is about the right capacity. My current 2 strap bag is 30L and is about correctly sized.
Looks like a great bag! I've heard good things about Osprey and need a good daypack.
I wouldn't say that tactical bags suck, I'd say that $20 Amazon "tacticool" sling bags suck. My 5.11 Rush bag works quite well for me. A Mystery Ranch bag would probably be amazing.
yeah.. he bought probably the worst bag possible and then complains that it sucks with a blanket statement about a whole class of bags
I have that pack! I use it for day hiking. Great pack. I never thought about using it for portable ops. I love it for hiking though. I currently use a couple Husky 5 gal tubs for POTA. I also have a small sling pack, smaller than your black one, that I use for geocaching. It sucks too. It always slides off my shoulder.
I keep my antennas organized in a Husky tote. Those things are great.
@@KB9VBRAntennas Yep, you showed them on a video and I picked up a couple. I like the way the lids hinge open every which way.
A Great Informative vid. Thank you again from Upstate NY !!!!! '73
I think carrying bags run the gamut and are very personal but if I were in the market for one I’d have to consider the explorer series at Gigaparts since it’s configured for ham radio with all the custom radio bags.
My biggest complaint with Osprey bags is the useless hip belt pockets. They are too far back to be really useful. But my wife(Mira22), both kids (Hikelite 18 & HydraJet12) and myself(Manta 24)all have Osprey bags for hiking. My wife and I also have larger Aura AG 65L & Aether 65L Osprey backpacks. Other than that, we love them.
You're right, they are small, but I'm also never quite sure what to stick in the hip belt pockets.
@@KB9VBRAntennas chap stick, multi tool and granola bars is all I put in mine. Even on my big pack (Aether 65) they aren’t the greatest.
I got in the same trap. Found a 'nice' tactical bag, only in OD, and a sling bag. Was great in the store walking around with it empty. Not so comfortable loaded with gear
Another great video, Michael. But, i noticed you dont have your laptop packed in the bag. Is that an oversight, or is there a reason you dont have it in the bag? 73s
Maybe a bit of an oversight. The laptop doesn't live in the bag, so I neglected it. The Osprey has a hydration pocket that a thin notebook computer could fit in, otherwise it would slide in with the rest of the gear.
Did you ever fill it and include antenna and batteries and take it for a hike?
Good overview 😊
Can't see point in slingbag in radio but can be good in photography as you don't have to get bag off your back to take out a camera just pull it around the front
One thing to consider before you discount the entire style is that sling bags often can be more comfortable for women, who are shaped differently than you or me. That said, the particular example you have does indeed look terrible, with a severely under-constructed strap for its capacity and a lazily-designed symmetric box for the pack that doesn’t match the asymmetric carrying system. The actually good sling packs are also unlikely to be marketed as “tactical”, as again, they’re largely made for women and most of them find that particular marketing ploy exactly as stupid as it is. :P
My own 100W POTA kit is an FT-891 in a Mountainsmith Day lumber pack.
I will agree, there are some very good sling packs on the market, this isn't one of them. In my day what you are describing was called a fanny pack. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
@@KB9VBRAntennas I still call it a fanny pack too, but figured I should use the modern marketing for anyone wanting to look it up :P Fanny packs are super practical - no sweaty back problems in the summer!
I had a belt bag/fanny pack when I was nordic skiing, and I really liked it. It lowered the center of gravity, making the more technical trail segments a lot easier.
I want to know more about the GPS module please!
Best bag I have found is the LowPro camera backpack. Everything has a padded compartment
Ive been using lowepro day packs for years. Forvbigger stuff its Gregory packs
Ah! An apples vs oranges comparison.
Mike you really are a Midwestern person lol forgiving for a hot take 😂
Ya sure, you betcha.
I have a sling bag and should have bought the regular backpack
I laugh when I see guys with tactical bags 😂
Nah....classy hams say "draw vacuum".
Tactical/tacti-cool bags are awful. Lightweight backpack packs are 100% superior, and almost universally more durable.
Michael, this is one of those RUclips that does nothing for the viewer but it generates revenue for you. This has very little value for those of us who watched it. If you’re going to do a RUclips on something like this, please tell us about the ones you recommend not the ones that you do like of which there could be many.