This looks like a quick way of conveniently generating inharmonic sounds to load in to a sampler, nice!! Like you mentioned, it would be handy if the app would normalise the output and maybe even to automatically make the output loopable. I understand making these loopable would be tricky because inharmonic partials result in aperiodic waveforms, but there might be some clever crossfading trick. Great stuff and I will play with Xentonal synth some more!
Yeah the app is in a very early stage, a lot has to be done, just wanted to get something out there to get started. Thanks for the shout out! I've watched your stream and totally agree that there should be ways to make sounds more normal, to strike a balance between less roughness and familiarity
I have a suggestion about looping: how about crossfading each partial at a different time, rather than all at once? It might help to "hide the join" a little.
You're doing some amazing work, and helping to educate musicians like me who want to learn more about the actual physics of sound and harmony. Thank you!
Shut up and take my money! In all seriousness though 1. This is fantastic, how can we contribute? I don’t have much but I want to support this however I can. 2. I feel like this should possibly be two different things, one is a browser based app for making scl files, the other is a VST plugin. If you are going to make a whole playable synth, why not make it available as both standalone and DAW-use? I’m sure plenty of plug-in companies can see the beauty in this fantastic thing you are working on, maybe even make it compatible with already existing software synths, the way MTS-ESP and microtuner works to control other synths. Just my initial reaction. Keep up the fantastic work! You are an inspiration.
Having VST is great and I would love to see that happening, but not sure I can pull that off at that time. What I want to achieve here is a balance between being able to use this for composition, educating musicians about the concept that is quite alien (having nice visualizations etc.) and having easy development experience so new features can be added quickly for all devices and operating systems. Considering contributions, I don't really know, I'll need to think about it and I'll mention that in next video. I want to post more often then before, every 2 - 3 weeks would be ideal. So stay tuned and thank you very much! I am very glad that you find what I do important!
Ok, actually very eye opening. There is some stuff here I have vaguely thought about in the past but it's so clear here. Thanks for sharing this video.
This is amazing! Great work. I’ve been fascinated by these sort of ideas ever since I read Sethares’ book a couple of years ago. I’ve often thought about building an app similar to this so I’m really glad to see how thoroughly you’ve developed this one. It opens up so many interesting sounds to explore. Thanks so much for making this.
Sevish sent me here :) I love what you're doing! I'll watch your other videos soon - hoping one of them gives details of how you calculate the dissonance curve, as I'm curious.
First 16 partials seem more reasonable to me than only first 6 partials. Then we get 8 multiples of 2 (including 4 stacked octaves), 5 multiples of 3 (2 stacked twelfths), 3 multiples of 5, 2 multiples of 7 plus the basic primes 11 and 13. This should be enough for most purposes. Most people working with Just Intonation nowadays at least accept basic 7-limit ratios as just and consonant. Same goes for people experimenting with various temperaments.
This is very fascinating. I have been thinking about manipulating the harmonic series for some time. I wonder if this idea could be fused with AI so that it can recognize the ''normal'' harmonic series of sounds (digital midi audio would be easier at first), and then retune the harmonic series of said sound. This might be used to tune chords (atleast simple ones) into for example just intonation. Maybe one could set a scale, or the program could maybe recognize the base frequency, and tune the harmonic series into it without affecting the timbre of the sound? Pop music would sound similar to a barbershop quartet, time to bring that back lol! Transposing and modulating would still be in tune, as the program would retune (or move the harmonic series of) each note each time its played. Finally, music in tune... or then you could use it for the opposite 😈 Keep this up! Musical revolution is coming at some point in the future!!! I hope...
Very interesting stuff, thanks for that work. I don't know if it is my browser, but I noticed that the partials greater than 32 are not generated in the audio play and sample export.
Really interesting stuff, I like what you're doing! Kind of curious to know if you tried any Python modules for real time audio? It seems the easiest way is to simply write to a file and hear the result. Another side question: how do you feel about people sampling these tones to create music with?
I played with Python a bit, but I think browser solution is more accessible than native app. I have a plan to make it a Progressive Web App so it will be installable on any machine, but it is low priority for now. Perfect solution would be to develop a vst in c++ JUCE framework, but it seems to be to much work for me at that point. Yes please, sample it and use it! This is exactly what I hope for
I wonder if it would be possible to build a filter that is capable of shifting the frequency of parts of the spectrum. That way we could take a sample of, lets say, a piano and modify portions of it to make it behave the way we want.
Not sure if filter can do it. My understanding is that filters can only affect amplitudes and phases of partials but not their frequencies. However it is possible to take a Fourier transform tweak it and than take the inverse. Not sure how viable this is for real-time audio as Fourier transform sacrifices latency for precision, but should work as an offline processor.
Hey this is great. I think though, maybe working out a single-cycle waveform export format would be better, especially for using it in additice/sytrus synths as the waveforms.
Same problem, correct loop point will be when the phases of all partials are the same at the beginning of the loop as at the end, otherwise you will hear the click. And that can happen after very long time. So for now the only way I see is to generate samples that are long enough for the task at hand. Maybe have separate samples for bass, midrange and high range if necessary.
@@new_tonality okie. Yeah makes sense, i thought a loop point couldn't need more than like 5 seconds to be good for those, especially at high pitches. But yeah. Maybe there are some additive synthesis formats which allow to take the harmonic content as partials and so outdo the need for a long loop point?
Not that I know of. But I am now thinking if granular synth can do the job? Grains shouldn’t be too short so the sound is inharmonic and maybe with enough grains it can cover up individual fades so the sound is consistent. Worth a try
This looks like a quick way of conveniently generating inharmonic sounds to load in to a sampler, nice!! Like you mentioned, it would be handy if the app would normalise the output and maybe even to automatically make the output loopable. I understand making these loopable would be tricky because inharmonic partials result in aperiodic waveforms, but there might be some clever crossfading trick. Great stuff and I will play with Xentonal synth some more!
Do you have any recommendations for microtunable samplers?
@@maandalen TAL-Sampler is what I use and I think it's great.
Yeah the app is in a very early stage, a lot has to be done, just wanted to get something out there to get started. Thanks for the shout out! I've watched your stream and totally agree that there should be ways to make sounds more normal, to strike a balance between less roughness and familiarity
I have a suggestion about looping: how about crossfading each partial at a different time, rather than all at once? It might help to "hide the join" a little.
@@new_tonality It's amazing stuff for an early version
You're doing some amazing work, and helping to educate musicians like me who want to learn more about the actual physics of sound and harmony. Thank you!
Shut up and take my money!
In all seriousness though
1. This is fantastic, how can we contribute? I don’t have much but I want to support this however I can.
2. I feel like this should possibly be two different things, one is a browser based app for making scl files, the other is a VST plugin. If you are going to make a whole playable synth, why not make it available as both standalone and DAW-use? I’m sure plenty of plug-in companies can see the beauty in this fantastic thing you are working on, maybe even make it compatible with already existing software synths, the way MTS-ESP and microtuner works to control other synths.
Just my initial reaction. Keep up the fantastic work! You are an inspiration.
Having VST is great and I would love to see that happening, but not sure I can pull that off at that time. What I want to achieve here is a balance between being able to use this for composition, educating musicians about the concept that is quite alien (having nice visualizations etc.) and having easy development experience so new features can be added quickly for all devices and operating systems.
Considering contributions, I don't really know, I'll need to think about it and I'll mention that in next video. I want to post more often then before, every 2 - 3 weeks would be ideal. So stay tuned and thank you very much! I am very glad that you find what I do important!
Ha, funny coincidence, I actually programmed an essentially identical synthesizer for myself yesterday. Cool stuff.
Finally a new video! The app looks amazing!! Great job!
Very nice experimentation ! And thanks for making it available to everyone who wants to explore…
Ok, actually very eye opening. There is some stuff here I have vaguely thought about in the past but it's so clear here. Thanks for sharing this video.
Excellent work from what I can see! Cannot wait to try it out after dealing with my next deadlines.
This is amazing! Great work.
I’ve been fascinated by these sort of ideas ever since I read Sethares’ book a couple of years ago. I’ve often thought about building an app similar to this so I’m really glad to see how thoroughly you’ve developed this one. It opens up so many interesting sounds to explore.
Thanks so much for making this.
Sevish sent me here :) I love what you're doing! I'll watch your other videos soon - hoping one of them gives details of how you calculate the dissonance curve, as I'm curious.
First 16 partials seem more reasonable to me than only first 6 partials.
Then we get 8 multiples of 2 (including 4 stacked octaves), 5 multiples of 3 (2 stacked twelfths), 3 multiples of 5, 2 multiples of 7 plus the basic primes 11 and 13.
This should be enough for most purposes.
Most people working with Just Intonation nowadays at least accept basic 7-limit ratios as just and consonant. Same goes for people experimenting with various temperaments.
I'm glad you are back!
This is so cool. Thank you so much for posting this gems about tunning.
this is basically everything i wanted to do (but didn't know how) when i was reading Tuning Timbre Spectrum Scale by william sethares
As a usual very interesting and useful video.
This is very fascinating. I have been thinking about manipulating the harmonic series for some time. I wonder if this idea could be fused with AI so that it can recognize the ''normal'' harmonic series of sounds (digital midi audio would be easier at first), and then retune the harmonic series of said sound. This might be used to tune chords (atleast simple ones) into for example just intonation. Maybe one could set a scale, or the program could maybe recognize the base frequency, and tune the harmonic series into it without affecting the timbre of the sound? Pop music would sound similar to a barbershop quartet, time to bring that back lol! Transposing and modulating would still be in tune, as the program would retune (or move the harmonic series of) each note each time its played. Finally, music in tune... or then you could use it for the opposite 😈
Keep this up! Musical revolution is coming at some point in the future!!! I hope...
Agree, standardization of music is ridiculous at that point, time to set it free!
great project. It would be nice if we could upload a scala file and it would adjust partial frequencies according to it.
Agree, but its quite an advanced feature to implement. Will get to it one day though))
as always, this is fantastic! is there any way we can support you work?
Sorry, missed your comment. Not at the moment but I’ll post a new video soon and mention something there.
Very interesting stuff, thanks for that work. I don't know if it is my browser, but I noticed that the partials greater than 32 are not generated in the audio play and sample export.
Thank you for your feedback! I am currently reworking the synthesiser, will try to release new version in a week or two with that fixed
Really interesting stuff, I like what you're doing!
Kind of curious to know if you tried any Python modules for real time audio? It seems the easiest way is to simply write to a file and hear the result.
Another side question: how do you feel about people sampling these tones to create music with?
I played with Python a bit, but I think browser solution is more accessible than native app. I have a plan to make it a Progressive Web App so it will be installable on any machine, but it is low priority for now. Perfect solution would be to develop a vst in c++ JUCE framework, but it seems to be to much work for me at that point.
Yes please, sample it and use it! This is exactly what I hope for
@@new_tonality Awesome, thanks
I wonder if it would be possible to build a filter that is capable of shifting the frequency of parts of the spectrum. That way we could take a sample of, lets say, a piano and modify portions of it to make it behave the way we want.
Not sure if filter can do it. My understanding is that filters can only affect amplitudes and phases of partials but not their frequencies. However it is possible to take a Fourier transform tweak it and than take the inverse. Not sure how viable this is for real-time audio as Fourier transform sacrifices latency for precision, but should work as an offline processor.
I took this idea for something but I don't think I got it right, need to rewatch this and again and again...
Hey this is great. I think though, maybe working out a single-cycle waveform export format would be better, especially for using it in additice/sytrus synths as the waveforms.
Single cycle export won’t work here unfortunately as inharmonic sounds are not periodic
@@new_tonality aah i see the problem. Okie. What about loop points?
Same problem, correct loop point will be when the phases of all partials are the same at the beginning of the loop as at the end, otherwise you will hear the click. And that can happen after very long time. So for now the only way I see is to generate samples that are long enough for the task at hand. Maybe have separate samples for bass, midrange and high range if necessary.
@@new_tonality okie. Yeah makes sense, i thought a loop point couldn't need more than like 5 seconds to be good for those, especially at high pitches. But yeah. Maybe there are some additive synthesis formats which allow to take the harmonic content as partials and so outdo the need for a long loop point?
Not that I know of. But I am now thinking if granular synth can do the job? Grains shouldn’t be too short so the sound is inharmonic and maybe with enough grains it can cover up individual fades so the sound is consistent. Worth a try
Can't get the .wav to play back. :-( Looks like the header is corrupted. (windows chrome and edge)
I found if I open the wav in audacity and re-export it then it could be read in my DAW and sampler
Will try to fix as soon as I can. Thanks for the feedback!
@@Sevish I did try that, but it didn't work, maybe that only works on mac. There's audio in there as it plays on Windows media player.
Just needed FFmpeg v2.2.2 for audacity installed.
AHH YOU ARE SO WONDERFUL SHDJFJKF
Bump
Bump!
Bumpy boppity!
"Timbre" is pronounced "tamber"