Totally agree. I believe there are other factors at play, such as low morale, the government's treatment of citizens, and an ideology that has infected the HR department and higher-ups.
Me too & my father was a career USN officer; 1/2 of those 20 yrs as pilot & 1/2 of the rest as CIC officer aboard (now long retired) air craft carriers.
Beaurocracy and arrogance. I remember interviewing for a job with a large government agency 10 years ago, that really needed my skill set. The job wasn't great and I had lots of other opportunities. They treated me like a someone with no other options . It was completely bizarre. Sorry to say that this is simply a reflection of where we are as a social. "Late empire".
That's PRECISELY what MSC does. They treat employees like they have no other options yet refuse to address their retention problems. Instead, their solution is "recruit more." When people quit your company to go make LESS money, it should tell you something about your management practices.
If you are a WM, then no one wants to hire you anyway. I have done many interviews, just to be treated like garbage, as soon as they see my face. I experienced HRM and other managers trying to talk me out of even doing the interview. They must not have looked at the EEO survey to see I am a WM.
The problem when I retired from MSC was that they would not hire anyone. They always cried about not being able to find people to hire but refused to hire anyone. It was so bad that some mariners stayed at sea for years without relief. We were not allowed to leave unless a relief showed up. I remember seeing a man leaving our ship in Japan without relief after 4 years of not seeing his family. They told him he would be fired if he left and he said "I have plenty of money, but I don't know if I still have a family". Imagine being separated from your home for years and having to sail because the office was unable to provide a relief.
Time to get rid of all the people in charge of hiring. Pay has always been crap in the U.S.N. when I left in the 80's my first job after I was making more than a full lieutenant. Besides who is a trained merchant seaman right off the street? Noone.
not that bad in RFA they would only keep you 2 weeks after 4 month trip... I did 14 years... their problem is deck & engineer officers leave for better pay & leave
Another problem with sailing on MSC ships was that MSC was the way crew members were treated by the Navy. Most of the MSC ships I was on rarely put onto Navy bases, which was just as well because we were not treated well when we did. The first time I ever put into a Navy Base was after seven months working overseas. Immediately after we docked a very spruce-looking Navy Commander strode up our gangway, tied a rope across it and told me (I was the Mate on Watch) that we were restricted to ship because we were a "disgrace to the base". I immediately untied the rope, threw it into the water and told him that if he set foot on board again I would have the same thing done to him. "Who's own charge here?", he demanded. "I am", I replied. He gaped at me, and then at the angry crew members who had gathered around, and then beat a hasty retreat and never returned. On another occasion a ship I was on became stuck in a Navy base for 6 weeks repairs were being done in the engine room. We were barred from access to the PX and the service clubs and were repeatedly harassed by the Base Police while walking around the base. To the Navy, MSC was "The Mercenary Navy" and "The Foreign-Legion Fleet", and they had absolutely no use for us.
Ah, the fragile egos... its like theyre offended that they made a worse career choice compared to the merchants. I thought they joined because of honor courage and commitment.
I was in Norfolk Virginia us naval base in1973 with rfa olna as a. Fireman greaser the base commander took some of us to to the base club this place sold weak beer dried beef jerky and had a pole dancer,,,,,,his last words to us were ,,,hey guys dont wreck my club 18:34 18:34
Omg this is so horrendous. Wtf is wrong with accessing the PX? Even civilians can easily get on base with just a driver license. That’s how DoorDash deliver food to bases now.
As an American US Army vet, same. Hate to say it, but after the massive clusterf#@k of the A-stan pullout with absolutely no consequences for anybody, I don't see risking my neck for them.
Ppl talk of money, salary etc. Yet no one seemed to give the British youth an ounce of credit on the possibility that they have wised up, and that joining the US, UK navy means fighting in foreign wars, helping genocidal country like Israel, and nothing to do with defending their homes.
So glad you raised this issue Sal. As a retired RN Officer, I totally support your comments on the importance of the RFA and the professionalism of their crews; and the need for them to be fairly rewarded. I fail to understand why the UK government has so mismanaged the protection of the UK's maritime interests by running down both the RN and RFA capabilities and capacity so far; and in the case of the RFA treated their personnel so shabbily. Keep up the good work, making people aware of maritime issues that impact our ability to trade and to protect our maritime interests.
I'm really glad you covered this today. I'm 47 and a vet of the USMC in the late 90s. After raising a family by myself, I'm changing my career. This summer I'm getting an MMC and going to start my sea career. I loved being at sea in the Corps and I hope I do as a merchant mariner. I've looked at the MSC a lot the last week or so. Looks like a good opportunity but as you say they need to fix the leave. As a brand new military service person you earn 30 days leave a year no matter what and a lot of those guys are stationed state side with jobs simila hours to civilians. Being at sea is completely different. No family, no time on shore for weeks at a time. I really hope this gets fixed. I would love to serve again as a mariner in the MSC.
From a civilian, it seems to me that you are living in a good hotel - full board - from when you cast off to when you tie up again. About 1/3rd of your days are spent with you excercising and someone watching you. Take turns about.
As discussed elsewhere in these comments, take a small part of the overtime as comp time and there's plenty of paid leave while still pulling good overtime money (assuming the website is being truthful about average salary). What you need to find out from mariners that work at MSC is whether they allow you to actually use the comp time. If it works like regular government comp time, if you don't use it within a year of earning it, it pays out as regular time. I'm not a mariner, just SGOTI, so do as much research as possible. Good luck!
At MSC you must complete the 4 month tour + the it takes for a relief. That can add up to about 8 months. Then you may take 30 calendar days of leave. This might be increase to 60 some day soon. I have 21 years MSC. Be careful in your choice.
@@Mrjohnatsea Thanks for posting this information. The limitation on the amount of leave you can take in a block does limit the utility of the comp time to make up for the extended tour schedule.
Let me tell you a MSC story. MSC was my first job out of the academy as a third mate. My first hitch was 273 days. I took all my leave which ended up being just over a month came back to the pool in San Diego and went to another ship this time for 293 days. I should mention I was 170 days overdue for my requested relief date. After I get off I am home 12 days when I get a call from the detailer in Norfolk saying they absolutely had to have me back asap. So at my own expense I buy a ticket from Anchorage, AK to San Diego on one days notice. I get to the pool expecting that I will be sent to another ship within days. Nope. I am there a full week. I call the detailer ask when I can expect orders. No idea. They have plenty of thirds and don't know why I came back with leave on the books. Grrr. Okay can I go back home. Oh no we have to have you. I rage quit right there and then.
I'm flying to Anchorage the day after 2mro. Been going to Naknek AK for 14 years now. Those aren't the funnest flights and the cost never seems to be less than a grand. That suck man!!
The title of this video is hilarious. Its like reading "Cadavers have a breathing problem". Why are so many people ignorant of the observable fact that all our once western nations are dead? Killed from within
The problem with MSC is that they treat their people like crap. I just had a conversation with a new mariner this morning that wants to join the Seafarer's union. I told her her best route is to get a job with MSC, let them pay for all of her training, THEN quit and join the union.
Sounds like good practical advice. Sailors should know that companies are not out there to give you a good time. And it takes a while to learn your craft.
Just Oiler is fine, because Piney Point training is free of charge with room and board. You can live cashless for few months you are there. MSC makes you buying own food for pitiful 265 bucks a week, which is matching 1994 prices. So you will spend a lot on free of tuition MSC training in free pool hotel.
Thanks Sal for your update and analysis-people who have never served in the military don't know how crucial these merchant mariners are to the U.S., and the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. You're the best!!!-thanks.
Well said Sal, I must admit (I'm UK) you have opened my eyes about the MSC, the lack of leave is incredible when a lot of mariners are on 1/1 paid leave in certain sectors worldwide, and even that is bad. Let me deal with the UK where we pay our train drivers, incidentally on strike for more money for over a year, twice what we pay our doctors, and doctors work 24/7. The UK has a long history of mistreatment of it's mariners, idiotic for an island nation. Going back to the Armada, firstly the Queen wouldn't supply things to them as too costly, then when they won they were discarded and many starved to death. In WW2 the merchant marine had the highest losses of anyone, yet incredibly if their ship was sunk and they survived they had to make their way back on their own costs and time, as their wages were stopped when the ship sank, true. I remember in the late 70's and early 80's British Petroleum (BP) paid it's lorry road tanker delivery drivers (40 hour week) almost double what they paid their ships captains (no weekly limits), it has always been thus. For those unfamiliar with a life at sea the average hours worked are around 60-90 hours per week, with a watchkeeping cycle of 4 hours on 4 hours off, or 5/5, or 6/6 and on larger vessels 4/8. However ships work 24/7 every day of the year and if off watch you will be needed for other tasks such as mooring, so forget regular sleep patterns. Even trying to sleep can be difficult in bad weather or noise from ships operations. Your accommodation and food are provided, but both may not be to your norms and you may have to sleep with others on some vessels. Things are changing, but in the past it was difficult to call home and forget family celebrations and emergencies, you're stuck. OK it's tough, but a lot of jobs are, however look at it this way the average shoreside worker does 35/40 hours basic, seafarers do twice this but do not earn twice as much. Shore workers get weekends off, bank holidays and say 4 weeks annual paid leave, plus they go home at night, roughly 135 days off within the year (paid). Most mariners are on a 2/1 leave system giving them around 120 days off within the year. You'll immediately see why on the basic terms the jobs are not attractive, however your MSC rates are horrendous, even compared to the UK, and they are bad enough.
What I’m taking away from this is that two governments are surprised that nobody wants to work for the naval support fleets when the job doesn’t pay enough. Typical government being surprised by basic economics, I guess.
Thank you for making this video. I live in the city of Portsmouth and have ships go past at the end of the road where I live. Due to government cuts this year alone Royal Navy has been told to cut 12,000 jobs again (this this the 3rd time they made 12,000 people redundant, plus they have had no pay rises since 2010 as well. Normally 5,500 people will retire each year but they still making 4 to 5,000 compulsory redundancies this year and not replacing anyone who leaves the service via getting another job, death or illness. QED recruitment and retention are in the toilet and the Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxiliary have more ships than crews. Hence why you have not seen the Royal Navy aircraft carriers(s) either in the Mediterranean, the Red Sea or the Indian Ocean - they can not get the crews to man the Royal Fleet Auxiliary ships to send out to sea so when on station in the locations weapons and fuel can not be supplied.
@@CraigTheBrute-yf7nothe worst part about what you said is that it is quite literal, the Prime Ministers plan is actually, legitimately, quite literally...to conscript 18 year olds
The solution is simple economics. If the pay and benefits offered don't fill the employment slots, then they need to be improved. The obvious manpower source to target would be merchant mariners on US flagged vessels. If the Military Sealift Command offered more generous pay and benefits than those provided in the private sector, then its billets would be full and it would be the commercial carriers with crewing problems.
I am shocked at lack of pay raises, but also not so shocked as I currently work for a nonprofit and will be leaving it after just 3 years. A bad 3 years because of 1-2% raises with inflation averaging 5%. I've basically lost pay
Its more than that, at least in the U.S. Military pay has always lagged behind civilian pay. So when going in the military you usually have to want to do something than just earn a bunch of money. You have to want something more. Usually that's patriotism, a belief in what you are doing ect, education, ect. Unfortunately we have raised several generations that don't really like the country they live in, or the west in general. In the 90's and 2000's this was made up due to higher recruiting from what would be considered "conservative" areas, again this is probably due to the higher levels of what would be considered patriotism in those areas. 2000's especially due to the short outpouring after 9/11. However now those same conservative areas have dropped due to the increasing politicization of the military against those same conservatives. Ask most veterans and they will tell their kids and grand kids not to go in. Those do have an effect over long periods of time.
@@CaptRR I wouldn't say parriotism has ever been highee in conservative areas although it may seem like thatnjust because of higher %s of enrollment. It is more because those states are less wealthy as evidenced by the amount of money the fedeeal govt takes in on a per capita basis from liberal vs conservative states. Is also evidenced by the amount of money spent on higher ed and the unemployment rate. Jobs such as those in the military have generally been more sought after by people in conservative states because of these factors. But yeah, to a small degree patriotism across all states has taken a hit with the rediculous us vs. them mentality between the Republicans and Democrats over everything. Both partys ripping the country a new one anytime something people generally agree on comes up in conversation. It's pathetic.
My Dad was a Merchant Marine from 1942 until retirement in the mid-1970's. He belonged to the Masters, Mates, and Pilots Union. When I was younger I remember him being gone 9 months then home for 3 months then it was back on the list to get another ship. Later the MM&P got a better contract so he was gone 6 months and home 4. Then he'd get back on the list and in the meantime do relief work at the port. The days off MSC provides is crazy.
I totally agree. Sal taught me a lot when I was protecting mariners as a case manager. Sal was wonderful. He helped me help others. I learned so much. He was grounded. Love Sal. ❤
Sal, I was also in MSC. I started with 10 years in the Navy. I was with MSC for 29 years. I have since retired. Love your channel. I found it after the Dali. I just watched the crewing problems video. I saw one slide that showed average "salaries" for all the positions. This is misleading because it includes overtime and penalty pay. Overtime is very restricted. So , I don't believe those numbers. My highest year as a Chief Mate was $150K with everything included. Part of the recruiting problem is that there is not much recruiting everywhere the navy has a base. Instead they recruit off the streets of Norfolk.
@@TRONABORON Is that even possible with American licensed US Naval ships that essentially requires security checks and citizenship lmao? Keep those Philippines for companies that wanna low ball their crew to the lowest pay you will ever see on a vessel.
In the age of remote work from home being away on a ship with little leave for months on end is a very very undesirable job. To have such a poor leave schedule may have worked in prior times but no longer. Hiring people that are actually competent and who will stay with an employer for such a rough job now a days means to have higher pay and have much better benefits than in the past, people want a real life. I will also bet you that since the number of employees are so low in the American Navy for those jobs the crews are getting worked to death and fatigued, another big negative factor.
I sailed for MSC for 5 years before I quit and joined the MM&P. I never regretted that decision. MSC crews frequently were kept on board for a year or more and, when they finally did get off their ships, within a week or two the MSC dispatcher would be bothering them on the phone to go back to sea again. However, unlike on merchant ships, MSC crews do not sign articles and, instead of being paid at the end of a voyage, as is done on a merchant ship, MSC crews are paid every two weeks wherever the ship may be, "Navy-style". As a result, MSC crew members have little to lose financially by walking off their ships. The Navy officers who ran MSC could never comprehend why so many crew members used to walk off their ships. We could have explained it to them but the Navy never asked the people who sail on their ships for their advice or opinions about anything.
I used to be in the Royal Navy then later the Merchant Navy. In the Merchant Navy when I was in it, British flagged Ships accounted for about the 4th biggest fleet. Now all we have left is Royal Fleet Auxiliary as the biggest Ocean going fleet in the Merchant Navy, with about 6/7 ships. Any others are on Ferries.
1945-46 BRITISH SHIPS,,UNDER BRITISH FLAG,MANNED BY BRITISH CREWS AND IN SPITE OF WW2 LOSSES, SHIPS & CREWS, CARRIED 43.0 ~ 45.0 % OF ALL WORLD IMPORTS/EXPORTS .TODAY ..I HAVE NO IDEA BUT WOULD GUESS IT WOULD ONLY NEED TO SHIFT THE DECIMAL POINT TO THE LEFT
I sailed as a MSO (medical services officer) for MSC for a total 10 tears…I was never relieved on time on any of the ships I sailed on…I really enjoyed sailing…but planning any time off was near impossible due to the manning level of MSO’s…it’s the same with most of the ship board crew…I now have a son who is a d-Mach sailing for MSC and is experiencing the same situation…he likes sailing but this manning situation is creating a lot of hate and discontent among the CIVMARS…great report on the foibles of being a CIVMAR…
Gotta say Sal there is something about your manner, attitude and way of speaking that has me tuning in every time you post. Who knew shipping was so interesting. Thanks for all your insight.
Brilliant! My favourite way to start the day - Sal in barely controlled - but totally reasoned - full-on rant mode. And damn it - as usual, he's bang-on right.
I feel like anything that relies on a civil service structure of funding suffers the same cycle where nothing gets addressed until things break. No sense of proactive planning or support by government’s. You would think that since the military cannot function without this being healthy and supported that it would be a priority. Something breaks, they throw money at it. You have a brief period of stability and the slide to disrepair begins again as it is ignored again.
I am a retired Chief Petty Officer (20 years) from the US Navy. Because the MSC does not recognize the qualifications which USN sailors obtain while serving, it is almost impossible to move to the MSC from active USN service. If they wish to open a HUGE pool of experienced and qualified mariners to fill MSC positions, create a fast-track program for sailors leaving active duty to get jobs in the MSC. I loved my time at sea and would have jumped at the chance to move from the deck of my warship to the deck of the replenishment ship along side.
I'm amazed that USN qualifications are not recognized by the MSC, resulting in complete loss of highly skilled and seasoned sailors who completely understand the purpose of their mission. Simply changing that position by legislation could help solve the manpower problem by the stroke of a pen.
Ask them why they don't recognize; sounds like a strange cover up. Anybody can join the navy right off the street. If you don't get a guaranteed A school right out of boot camp you have no trained specialty. Your just a swab. Maybe that's the problem.😊
@@BrassLock Pretty sure it would not completely solve the problem but it is silly that my qualifications as Officer of the Deck Underway (literally being fully responsible for the operation and safe navigation of the ship during my watch, answerable only to the Commanding Officer and Executive Officer) holds absolutely no weight in the MSC or merchant fleet.
Unless you went to A or C school with a specific rate or talent after bootcamp your nothing but a swab who gets trained on the job. It's structure helps get dudes off the street. Judges will actually force criminals to join the service without their consent hoping it will straighten them out. Usually doesn't work and they go U.A. 1980'S U.S.N. Another experiment that didn't work. Division petty officer great lakes Illinois. The captured were marched to barracks under rifle point never to be seen again. Oct. 1979. 27 count.
Your better off going commercial under union. MSC should be taken over by a non exploiting company. Ships built in South Korea instead of the U.S.? go screw yourself.
Sal describes one aspect of the slow decline of a great power. Not by external action, but by a lack of maintainance. It will be a stark awakening when a neglected system is asked to respond to an emergency....and it isn't up to the task. All these details are the nuts and bolts of history. All empires decline, given enough time. Ex kitty cruiser USN NSG
Outstanding explanation of our current "Watery Woes" Sal! As an ex Merchant Mariner, I wholeheartedly agree 100% with your sentiments. So depressing an outline of inexcusable, incompetence by the "Governing/Ruling Classes"! Just as well I left the sea all those decades ago, when I realized that we & the "industry" were on a slippery slope, helter-skelter downwards. Very prescient of me for a change! I saw the future! Flags of convenience etc. A pity, because I enjoyed my time sailing the oceans of the world back in the day. I try to keep in touch with "Matters Maritime", as I am fond of "shipping" (and your Channel BTW), yet I fail to understand why these highly-trained mariners have been criminally neglected for decades (DECADES)!! If the Proverbial suddenly hits the fan, then we truly will be in the Proverbial for sure! Submariners are called the "Silent Service", as I suppose you are aware. However, we should pinch that title and give it to the RFA and (US) Sealift Command. Get a grip you bureaucrats and fix this debacle ASAP!
I enjoyed your comments about time on a ship. I got off my last ship, the TransEastern, in 1971, after 22 months on her, half a day off in Hawaii after 14 months. Took years to become almost middle-class in behavior. I agree, it was too damn long, but as a young man, it fed my ego to serve my ship so much. I did it to myself more than the company did it to me. Laid her up in Port Neches, Texas; I was the last one off the ship.
There is an issue with trained/skilled employee availability because much of American industry has gone elsewhere. Basic education is towards a college path, which is not for every personality and doesn't serve the labor requirements in any society. In a free market economy, the market must pay based on demand and availability. Awareness is also essential to fulfilling labor requirements. I have a nephew and it has just occurred to me that he might be perfect for sea service. Thanks Sal.
Sal another great video. You are spot on with your UK numbers. My last seagoing salary (offshore) in 2005 was £80k, I did a little extra work that year. That was as Master on gas ships with 12 years experience as Master. Unfortunately since the mid 80’s any UK government has not supported the MN. They allowed the oil majors to offshore the MN. They are still doing it relatively recently by allowing P&O to dismiss 800 UK staff without warning. Something you might have to ask is would you fight for the current crop of politicians? My honest answer would be NO.
During Vietnam, active duty leave time was 30 days per year served. Plus variable duty sections shore leave while in port 48 hrs or 72 hrs weekends + "roapyarn sunday" / Wednesday afternoon beer, burgers & softball: provided by ship.
I worked 8 months as an AB for MSC. To get a 4 month relief you have to put in for it at month 2. At month 4 if you are not relieved you get an extra $1K for the 5th month, then up to $2K extra at month 8. I quit and went to NOAA, same damn leave problem!
Not sure if Navy leave has changed since 1990, but back then it was 30 days per year (accrued). I know I took 35 days between 1 Dec 88 and 15 Jun 90. Even back in 1990 it was "Sink the AOE and in 5 days the carrier is mission killed due to lack of ammo and jet fuel."
Hi Sal. I have sailed commercially with ex MSC mariners. Twenty years ago they related to me, "timely" relief was a big problem. When the four month contract ended, it could be an additional 1-2 months before they could be relieved. I heard some wild stories of contrived personal emergencies to be evacuated/discharged from a ship when no relief was indicated. I was in the US Army reserves many years ago. Then, in some aspects, the defense department was run like a "mom and pop" enterprise.
The MSC leave schedule hasn't changed since at least 1966 when I went to work for them (MSTS back then). In 1968 the 2 day per month shore leave was added which helped a little. In 1973 paid leave in the privately owned merchant fleet went to 15 days paid leave for every 30 days worked. By 1979 the private US fleet paid day for day vacation. In the case of a conflict there woul be mass resignations and the CIVMARS would move to the private fleet, which is already short of mariners.
You kept me out of MSC - working as an OS on a Navy research vessel getting my AB soon. happy I stayed out of MSC, saving money, looking for good jobs for this winter, at it for 6 months n over all like it - worst part of the job is Gov oversight n how much they suck at their job’ I want to get into ROV work now
Thanks for the MSC coverage nice to know someone cares lol. I have a love for it but being detached from family and friends for so long I really don’t know if it’s worth it sometimes. The pay isn’t that great anymore. They take forever with promotions. Constantly messing up people’s checks and taking months to fix it. The time off is non existent and everything shore side is a sh*t show. I wanted to take a month off before a deployment after being on the ship for six months. My department head told me no I could only have two weeks after he just returned from a two month vacation. I had to call home and schedule a bunch of doctors appointments just to get the time off. Luckily my purser and immediate supervisor gave me that advice.
Hi Sal, glad you did this video. It's no wonder they can't find enough crew. One of the major problems i encountered was that the main office (which was in Bayone NJ.) and most ships officers treated crew very badly, there were a few good officers but not many.I worked for MSC for 9 years from the early 80's into the 90's. For the last 5 years i was ships carpenter which at the time was one paygrade above Bos'n mate. My last ship in that rating was the Saturn T-AFS 10 which i discharged from to go ashore for a while, get some R&R and a badly needed break. When i went back to Bayone to ship out i was told the carpenter's job had been done away with but the good news was that i was getting a promotion. So i asked the person talking to me what i was being promoted to. The answer was Bos'n mate. I told him it was a demotion and wouldn't take it and that the only position i would take would be Wiper. I found out a few months later that the carpenter's position was still there but the payrate was gone. The job was given to some AB who was dumb enough to work the carpenter's position for AB pay. So in a few days i was on a plane headed for Qatar going to board the Comfort T-AH20. You would think that a hospital ship would have all it's poop in one sock but at the time i was there it was absolute chaos which is the reason why SIU brought a class action suit against MSC. I won't get into any details here because i want to wrap this up but i can honestly say that living conditions & some working conditions were so bad, SIU won the case almost without a fight and the crew were recipients of a pretty good size pay out. Most people who have worked for MSC know that it doesn't stand for Military Sealift Command,, rather it's More Shit Coming.
Absolutely agree with you Sal What you may not know about RFA Argus is that she can also do limited fuel transfer for both ship and aviation she can also do solid stores transfer (jackstay but also helicopter) Also right now the RFA status is pretty poor we have 1 tide unable to sail due to crew shortage both tides are extended readiness (cold reserve) they also have had a lot of equipment removed my estimate is we could put them back to sea in about 90 days if we got the crew for it Fort Victoria our only multi role ship is laid up again lack of crew So as it stands for stores we only have 3 tides right now that’s it
Sal, you are a very persuasive speaker with your ready knowledge at the front and centre of each observation you make. Im an old landlubber being given a window seat on shipping by your episodes, and I find each of them educational and fascinating.
Same as Canadian navy too. Our pathetic government made noises about purchasing South Korean built submarines. Sounds great on paper. However, the shortfall is, the navy has trouble retaining trained sailors and our arrogant and too numerous 40 admirals cannot admit to poor leadership policies creating a toxic atmosphere. Adding to it, we only have 12 aging frigates. Our littoral fleet is much much worse off. Since 2014 they have "refitted" our twelve minesweepers removing its 40mm Bofors. Replacing it with nothing. Therefore our littoral fleet of some 22 vessels, only 6 with have 25 mil varmint cannon. Not a single piece of naval artillery capable of shore bombardment, No missiles, no depth charges, no 20mm CIWS, no torpedoes. The rigorous backbone of RCN shore patrol of 202,000 kms coastline: two WW2 machine guns per vessel. Eight Orca training vessels on our west coast (RCN refuses call them HMCS warships) because only 3 of them used to have .50 BMG mounted to help protect the Vancouver Olympics in 2010. Now nothing. And imaginary Cyclone helicopters. WTF
Yep, almost 17 years with MSC, last 7 or 8 as Master and it’s ridiculous. I was exceptionally frustrated mostly with leave but there are an array of other issues. Bottom line I could never get home. 4 months overdue last tour, got skipped in the relief list, next relief took reserve orders a week or so before supposedly coming out for me. In the end I’m sacrificing family time for what? Private sector was doing almost day for day with same pay. Made an easy choice to leave.
Another interesting episode. I'm a flatlander in Kansas with no marine background outside paddling a canoe. You do a great job pointing out concerns in both civilian and military ops and at the same time with a professional and optimistic manner.
several reasons i prefer commercial ships ,msc ships are old,lack of maintance.less money,less time off. the union im in now i work when i want to work. i choose where i work
totally agree Sal - i have a huge problem with wages in general, woman are still paid less than men, and wages do not seem to stay in pace with inflation - to hear a wage has not been increased for 14 years just leaves me speechless - the biggest issue i have with employment today is the whole work ethic, the incentive to stay in such a job will prevent anyone else looking to join up - my dad was a copper, he worked silly hours, 12 hr days, shifts, and it burns people out, and they in their respective work become switched off to have alternate people working rotating 12 hour shifts makes me cringe because the lifestyle you lead is very damaging with practically no social life, i do not see any reason why their cannot be a standard 8hour shift, three people rotating, which will mean employing a third more people and the whole wage thing, it disgusts me, damn right Navy, cough up, pay the correct wage and keep up with inflation, if there is no incentive, damn right you will suffer badly in the end, and when the workforce is down, accidents will happen
Im headed to SUNY Maritime in the fall for grad school and deck license. Thank you for your videos! Maybe one day you can do a huge info dump on the many options of ships/ companies a deck officer can work on
I just spoke with a friend that is in the management of MSC. She spoke of the issue with manning shortages. One source of mariners not being tapped is the retired sector. It is so difficult to return a license in continuity to active, many that want to return to sea don't. MSC should approach one of the maritime schools concerning an offering of a curriculum that would lay out the path for retired to return to active sailing. I for one would be there.
I'm older and in my younger days I was employed in the maritime industry. 2 years ago I wanted to come back, couldn't reinstate my license and couldn't pass the physical because I am on an anti anxiety medication. Maybe they should relax some of their criteria, it would open up a whole new pool of experienced mariners who are in their 2nd or 3rd life, kids long since gone etc.
@@jimmylam9846 Whoever told you that Jimmy, lied to you. Navy's give swords and guns to sailors in order to do battle. Slave owners do not arm up the people they want to keep down. Even today many politicians do not want the public to have easy access to Arms. It's harder to keep them down.
Ciao, paesan. Siciliano, USN (Ret.) Interesting for the info. Makes me glad I didn't do MSC. However, I am concerned with another staffing problem, the Fleet. My grandson just enlisted in the USN for subs, he's going to be a cook. He told me that during his process lots of kids were turned away for failure to pass drug tests. Now that most states look the other way for pot (I taught for 22 years after the Navy, pot in MS & HS is real.) there will come a time that few potential recruits will qualify for service, officer or enlisted. Solution. Allow druggies in. Make severe penalties in the enlistment contract. ?? I'll bet the same will happen with the MSC.
I think you're absolutely right. Since pot is legal in Canada, our service men and women are allowed to use it as well. They just need to follow sobriety rules, same as for alcohol: no use within 8 hours before duty, or 24 hours if they're going to be handling weapons or vehicles. Sure there's the odd "problem child" to deal with, but we always had those with booze anyway, and so we already have the disciplinary tools in place to deal with that.
@@robglenn4844 Many years ago, around 1982, I was high-lined over to an HMCS replenishment ship from a US destroyer. As a Navy PO2, I was thoroughly impressed with the quality of life on board. One great perk was the beer mess...and not just 2 a day like I thought. As many as I wanted. Was invited to have a few beers with my Canadian cousins and when I walked into the bar, the empty beer cans were stacked on the table, almost touching the overhead! We sat around swapping sea stories and one Sailor knocked back his beer, slammed it on the table, and roared, "Off to watch!" Now he could have been playing with the Yank Squid, but I don't think so. Shortly after, the coxswain came in and said the beer was shut off for the night. "Aye, coxswain!" said one of the crew. Coxswain left and five minutes later, one of the guys got up, walked over to the beer machine and...opened it with a key instead of putting money in it. LOL! That's what the coxswain keyed on so that he knew beer was still being bought. Later on he told me that the crew went through 40,000 cans of beer in a shortened WestPac! I believe it. Hopefully, things have changed. Having said all this, though, I can say without reservation that the Sailors on that ship were incredibly professional. These men really knew their profession. My hat's off to them!
Excellent, solidarity, there are a load of Brits screaming at the screen when you said the RFA haven't had a pay rise since 2010, neither has anyone else.... it's all politics Sal, all the best, the Untidied Kingdom.
Great point on the U.S. Merchant Marine shortage. The same math problem exists with other public service professions. In the Corrections sector, the shift relief factor (SRF) doesn’t always account for the others on the watch bill pool who are on earned vacation, sick, covering for vacant positions, FMLA entitlement, or on convalescent leave.
Another problem that the RFA suffers from is that these days they are one of very very few British ship operators that employ British Seafarers - Maersk is doing everything it can to make all European (not just UK ) leave the sea by degrading their terms of employment and giving below inflation pay increases despite making profits in the tens of billions of Euros/Dollars. Nobody except the RFA trains British seafarers today too. Even the big cruise ship operators that still use the names of old established British Companies don’t register their ships in the UK - they are all basically American owned by Carnival, yet because they are registered in British Overseas Territories (tax fiddles) they can fly a Red Ensign so the passengers are not aware that they aren’t being taken around the world by UK employed or trained crews for the most part.
Really interesting video. Im from UK didn't know rfa was paid so crap. Time off for us civilian crew is ridiculous. Well done sal hopefully this get picked up by uk press.
Perhaps if the govt. hadn't had the genius idea to put an expire date on z-cards. During 'Desert Storm' I sailed on Cape Alexander (MSC) and because she was powered by steam it was necessary to hire 'old hands" to crew up. A good thing their z-cards hadn't expired.
The oil-workers on our platforms have similar issues, and concerns, both from the time away from family or bases, and the danger of getting there. For our oil-guys, they got a huge increment in salary, PLUS they got overtime if they had to work off-schedule. As a result we had a whole swarm of our guys moving onto the oil rigs, especially to Indonesia, where if they worked for about 3+plus years, they could come home, but a house with cash, and for practical purposes, just get any other job, and be able to survive forever. Some of those also went to Alaska, and to the Baltic. The company paid for all of the Food, Entertainment (TV, Inet, Movies, no prostitutes), vacation back home, family leave, medical (very good), exercise gyms, etc. 3-year term was typical. Military is a good place to get a basic skill, but then get out, to a real job... Sorry to say that, since my father was military.
Around the time that MSC decommissioned the Z101 building on NOB (Norfolk base) there was some kind of administrative reorganization too. I was new at the time (~circa 2006) and the only thing I could see is that all of the old timers quit in droves. I'm still not sure why but a number of new directives had come out, they didn't like them and they had plenty of time in so they quit I think. (The Z101 building was the place where people that weren't assigned would wait for a ship.) For example, if you lost your Coast Guard (Z-card at the time) document you would be ejected from the complex and considered AWOL! There wasn't any clear information at the time as to what to do about this so lots of folks just went home. I was one of those folks. My understanding is that things have gotten a lot worse since with GS-12 admins that don't know why Dec. 7, 1941 is important in naval history, and many admins that are not even Americans. Not good. Can't work there.
So US Navy might be outsourcing Navy ships to be built by allies like South Korea, and now they have problems finding crew.. so maybe they will have to outsourced crew also?
For all the reasons Sal has outlined, I have discouraged my son from joining MSC. Not to mention they are not recognized by the DOD despite doing the heavy work for the Navy and other forces.
I retired with 30 years with Military Sealift Command. There exist within not just the comsc and staff but within the CIVMARS themselves of not pushing to administer the commercial model irt to crew rotations and vacation scheduling. While having this model would not probably solve the crewing problems in 2024, msc could probably weather the current billet shortages they are experiencing. What doesn't help is the office staff and comsc treating the civmars like crap. You can not have a person overdue 2, 3, 4, sometimes 6 months overdue, and call them back while they are unpacking their seabag. I've been out of the game for 5 years, IMHO I think msc is past the tipping point to fix it.
I had the port captain call me as I was driving up my driveway after 16hrs on the road from Virginia. Had to come back, cargo needed to be loaded. Sorry dude, Captain just paid off the entire cargo department and sent us all home! Go bother him about it.
And I see the Australian military is looking abroad for personnel BTW it's great to hear you showing such a great understanding of RN/RFA issues! Must say the RFA pay dispute has made zero impact in the UK news media
Not really its people living in australia with PR and from a Fiveyes country (US, UK, CAN and NZ) so its a very small group of people. The other scheme is lateral transfer for current serving military from other countries. Generally again from a 5 eyes country, lateral transfers have existed since the 50's
I have a few friends that worked for MSC that now work for Chouest. They like the flexibility that Chouest offers, and they say that pay and quality of life are better as well.
Why would you enlist and join the navy or army and be paid half of what you could earn in civilian life? In 2009 we conducted a Defence Review in Australia and determined that base pay for a recruit has to be near to the average wage to attract decent candidates. Now a new private or seaman in our military starts on $58k and escalates faster than before. The result is from having a severe shortage of recruits, there is now a waiting list and people with tertiary qualifications are enlisting. This is what the US and UK military have to do. In the US Army they only pay $28k for a recruit. Thats just plain robbery. Thats less than unemployment benefits in my country.
The U.S. army and navy still think it's 1939. In many respects they are both washed up and totally obsolete just from a fighting aspect alone. Why fight for corrupt business controlled politicians; oligarchs and war is economical mongers. Billions wasted on garbage issues.
The EPF program has sucked up an incredible amount of CIVMARs for a program of dubiable utility. And they are replacing 14 T-AO’s manned at 85-90 people with 20 of the new class which take 120-130 mariners. Plus the new ATF class and you should see how many of the Next Generation Logistic ships they want. That 6,000 Mariner number will likely increase to at least 10,000 needed by 2030. Everyone likes to say that the USMM is short officers and blaming the academies but the truth is the biggest shortfalls is in the unlicensed side, especially experienced UNREP personnel like able seamen and boatswains mates and specialized positions like communications personnel and some unlicensed engineers. I saw an electrician go almost a full year overdue for lack of a relief. That’s imprisonment. The rot started at the bottom well before COVID and while some gains have been made, not being able to find entry level utilitymen, ordinary seamen and oilers should have been a huge red flag. They should never lack for a relief! It’s absurd.
Pay does seem to be the key factor. However, I believe there are other factors are at play, such as low national morale, the government's treatment of British citizens/MP incompetence, and an ideology that has infected the HR department and higher-ups
The RFA was the jewel in the crown of the naval service (and the Falklands could never had been recovered without it) and it’s been left to whither on the vine
I hate to break it to the Starlink bros, but real jobs require paying attention to your environment at all times, or dying. If your head is in your phone, you absolutely WILL get people killed!
Thanks, amazing to see the depth of operational deficiencies. Wonder what the wartime OR analyses look like when you add in defending the supply fleet. Terrifying
A lot of the UK's public sector has not had a payrise since 2010. Funnily enough, the MPs have not suffered in the same way.
Weird how the people who write the rules don’t have to follow them, isn’t it?
ACCEPT SLAVERY. They own us.
@rwdi9snail - "The Power of the Purse !"
Funny how that works when you only have to ask yourself for a raise… same thing happens this side of the pond.
Totally agree. I believe there are other factors at play, such as low morale, the government's treatment of citizens, and an ideology that has infected the HR department and higher-ups.
Never would have thought I would be thoroughly entertained by a shipping program, but here I am.
Same
it is a great subject to learn more about.
Word...
Me too & my father was a career USN officer; 1/2 of those 20 yrs as pilot & 1/2 of the rest as CIC officer aboard (now long retired) air craft carriers.
Me Too Professor Sal Thanh You Sir
Beaurocracy and arrogance. I remember interviewing for a job with a large government agency 10 years ago, that really needed my skill set. The job wasn't great and I had lots of other opportunities. They treated me like a someone with no other options . It was completely bizarre. Sorry to say that this is simply a reflection of where we are as a social. "Late empire".
Hold your cards, I think we have a BINGO.
That's PRECISELY what MSC does. They treat employees like they have no other options yet refuse to address their retention problems. Instead, their solution is "recruit more." When people quit your company to go make LESS money, it should tell you something about your management practices.
If you are a WM, then no one wants to hire you anyway. I have done many interviews, just to be treated like garbage, as soon as they see my face. I experienced HRM and other managers trying to talk me out of even doing the interview. They must not have looked at the EEO survey to see I am a WM.
I entirely agree and have similar experiences despite being a veteran, highly trained, educated and experienced and in a pinch-point trade!
The problem when I retired from MSC was that they would not hire anyone. They always cried about not being able to find people to hire but refused to hire anyone. It was so bad that some mariners stayed at sea for years without relief. We were not allowed to leave unless a relief showed up. I remember seeing a man leaving our ship in Japan without relief after 4 years of not seeing his family. They told him he would be fired if he left and he said "I have plenty of money, but I don't know if I still have a family". Imagine being separated from your home for years and having to sail because the office was unable to provide a relief.
Could they not have flown him home and back? Even if it means laying up the boat for 3 days a year.
Surely people are worth that.
Time to get rid of all the people in charge of hiring. Pay has always been crap in the U.S.N. when I left in the 80's my first job after I was making more than a full lieutenant. Besides who is a trained merchant seaman right off the street? Noone.
not that bad in RFA they would only keep you 2 weeks after 4 month trip... I did 14 years... their problem is deck & engineer officers leave for better pay & leave
Another problem with sailing on MSC ships was that MSC was the way crew members were treated by the Navy. Most of the MSC ships I was on rarely put onto Navy bases, which was just as well because we were not treated well when we did. The first time I ever put into a Navy Base was after seven months working overseas. Immediately after we docked a very spruce-looking Navy Commander strode up our gangway, tied a rope across it and told me (I was the Mate on Watch) that we were restricted to ship because we were a "disgrace to the base". I immediately untied the rope, threw it into the water and told him that if he set foot on board again I would have the same thing done to him. "Who's own charge here?", he demanded. "I am", I replied. He gaped at me, and then at the angry crew members who had gathered around, and then beat a hasty retreat and never returned. On another occasion a ship I was on became stuck in a Navy base for 6 weeks repairs were being done in the engine room. We were barred from access to the PX and the service clubs and were repeatedly harassed by the Base Police while walking around the base. To the Navy, MSC was "The Mercenary Navy" and "The Foreign-Legion Fleet", and they had absolutely no use for us.
Ah, the fragile egos... its like theyre offended that they made a worse career choice compared to the merchants. I thought they joined because of honor courage and commitment.
I was in Norfolk Virginia us naval base in1973 with rfa olna as a. Fireman greaser the base commander took some of us to to the base club this place sold weak beer dried beef jerky and had a pole dancer,,,,,,his last words to us were ,,,hey guys dont wreck my club 18:34 18:34
Omg this is so horrendous. Wtf is wrong with accessing the PX? Even civilians can easily get on base with just a driver license. That’s how DoorDash deliver food to bases now.
As a Brit and a former Royal Marine, I can understand why people wouldn't want to fight for the people running this country
As an American US Army vet, same. Hate to say it, but after the massive clusterf#@k of the A-stan pullout with absolutely no consequences for anybody, I don't see risking my neck for them.
@@ald1144 Not to forget the 13 US service members killed in a bombing at the Kabul Airport, during the US withdrawal from Afghanistan.
@@laidoffjournalist Absolutely. Never to forget.
The elected people doing what the populace wants? Can you show me a Brit who didn't agree with the justifications for your many, many wars?
Ppl talk of money, salary etc. Yet no one seemed to give the British youth an ounce of credit on the possibility that they have wised up, and that joining the US, UK navy means fighting in foreign wars, helping genocidal country like Israel, and nothing to do with defending their homes.
So glad you raised this issue Sal.
As a retired RN Officer, I totally support your comments on the importance of the RFA and the professionalism of their crews; and the need for them to be fairly rewarded.
I fail to understand why the UK government has so mismanaged the protection of the UK's maritime interests by running down both the RN and RFA capabilities and capacity so far; and in the case of the RFA treated their personnel so shabbily.
Keep up the good work, making people aware of maritime issues that impact our ability to trade and to protect our maritime interests.
I'm really glad you covered this today. I'm 47 and a vet of the USMC in the late 90s. After raising a family by myself, I'm changing my career. This summer I'm getting an MMC and going to start my sea career. I loved being at sea in the Corps and I hope I do as a merchant mariner. I've looked at the MSC a lot the last week or so. Looks like a good opportunity but as you say they need to fix the leave. As a brand new military service person you earn 30 days leave a year no matter what and a lot of those guys are stationed state side with jobs simila hours to civilians. Being at sea is completely different. No family, no time on shore for weeks at a time. I really hope this gets fixed. I would love to serve again as a mariner in the MSC.
From a civilian, it seems to me that you are living in a good hotel - full board - from when you cast off to when you tie up again.
About 1/3rd of your days are spent with you excercising and someone watching you. Take turns about.
As discussed elsewhere in these comments, take a small part of the overtime as comp time and there's plenty of paid leave while still pulling good overtime money (assuming the website is being truthful about average salary).
What you need to find out from mariners that work at MSC is whether they allow you to actually use the comp time. If it works like regular government comp time, if you don't use it within a year of earning it, it pays out as regular time.
I'm not a mariner, just SGOTI, so do as much research as possible. Good luck!
@@olpaint71 good advice
At MSC you must complete the 4 month tour + the it takes for a relief. That can add up to about 8 months. Then you may take 30 calendar days of leave. This might be increase to 60 some day soon. I have 21 years MSC. Be careful in your choice.
@@Mrjohnatsea Thanks for posting this information. The limitation on the amount of leave you can take in a block does limit the utility of the comp time to make up for the extended tour schedule.
Let me tell you a MSC story. MSC was my first job out of the academy as a third mate. My first hitch was 273 days. I took all my leave which ended up being just over a month came back to the pool in San Diego and went to another ship this time for 293 days. I should mention I was 170 days overdue for my requested relief date. After I get off I am home 12 days when I get a call from the detailer in Norfolk saying they absolutely had to have me back asap. So at my own expense I buy a ticket from Anchorage, AK to San Diego on one days notice. I get to the pool expecting that I will be sent to another ship within days. Nope. I am there a full week. I call the detailer ask when I can expect orders. No idea. They have plenty of thirds and don't know why I came back with leave on the books. Grrr. Okay can I go back home. Oh no we have to have you. I rage quit right there and then.
I'm flying to Anchorage the day after 2mro. Been going to Naknek AK for 14 years now. Those aren't the funnest flights and the cost never seems to be less than a grand.
That suck man!!
Why are you even answering your phone when on leave?
@@SPIKESPIEGEL1969 Yes, you're technically unemployed until you get your ship.
I know a guy that retired about 5 years ago from MSC. He saw this coming back then.
It's the lack of morale which is why we're starting to utilize drag queens to cheer the sailors up.
God Protect America & our Gays 🌈🦅🇺🇸🦅🌈
The title of this video is hilarious. Its like reading "Cadavers have a breathing problem". Why are so many people ignorant of the observable fact that all our once western nations are dead? Killed from within
As a former US Air Force veteran the recruiting is bad across the board besides the Marines
@@keeppressing1760 so treat them to the movie Top Gun, then you new recruits instantly
What are the Marines doing right that the other services are not? @@keeppressing1760
The problem with MSC is that they treat their people like crap. I just had a conversation with a new mariner this morning that wants to join the Seafarer's union. I told her her best route is to get a job with MSC, let them pay for all of her training, THEN quit and join the union.
Sounds like good practical advice. Sailors should know that companies are not out there to give you a good time. And it takes a while to learn your craft.
Never heard of Morals? At least give them sometime back for the money😮😂
@@andykendall5171companies have no ethics
@@andykendall5171 If they treated people better, then they wouldn't be experiencing these retention issues.
Just Oiler is fine, because Piney Point training is free of charge with room and board. You can live cashless for few months you are there. MSC makes you buying own food for pitiful 265 bucks a week, which is matching 1994 prices. So you will spend a lot on free of tuition MSC training in free pool hotel.
20 years of flying everything into AF and Iraq has jaded their long-term vision of war fighting logistics.
20 years of treasonous wars that did nothing but loot the American people was what happened and nobody wants to join them now. That's the problem.
Thanks Sal for your update and analysis-people who have never served in the military don't know how crucial these merchant mariners are to the U.S., and the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. You're the best!!!-thanks.
Well said Sal, I must admit (I'm UK) you have opened my eyes about the MSC, the lack of leave is incredible when a lot of mariners are on 1/1 paid leave in certain sectors worldwide, and even that is bad. Let me deal with the UK where we pay our train drivers, incidentally on strike for more money for over a year, twice what we pay our doctors, and doctors work 24/7. The UK has a long history of mistreatment of it's mariners, idiotic for an island nation. Going back to the Armada, firstly the Queen wouldn't supply things to them as too costly, then when they won they were discarded and many starved to death. In WW2 the merchant marine had the highest losses of anyone, yet incredibly if their ship was sunk and they survived they had to make their way back on their own costs and time, as their wages were stopped when the ship sank, true. I remember in the late 70's and early 80's British Petroleum (BP) paid it's lorry road tanker delivery drivers (40 hour week) almost double what they paid their ships captains (no weekly limits), it has always been thus.
For those unfamiliar with a life at sea the average hours worked are around 60-90 hours per week, with a watchkeeping cycle of 4 hours on 4 hours off, or 5/5, or 6/6 and on larger vessels 4/8. However ships work 24/7 every day of the year and if off watch you will be needed for other tasks such as mooring, so forget regular sleep patterns. Even trying to sleep can be difficult in bad weather or noise from ships operations. Your accommodation and food are provided, but both may not be to your norms and you may have to sleep with others on some vessels. Things are changing, but in the past it was difficult to call home and forget family celebrations and emergencies, you're stuck.
OK it's tough, but a lot of jobs are, however look at it this way the average shoreside worker does 35/40 hours basic, seafarers do twice this but do not earn twice as much. Shore workers get weekends off, bank holidays and say 4 weeks annual paid leave, plus they go home at night, roughly 135 days off within the year (paid). Most mariners are on a 2/1 leave system giving them around 120 days off within the year. You'll immediately see why on the basic terms the jobs are not attractive, however your MSC rates are horrendous, even compared to the UK, and they are bad enough.
I’m mostly listen to these videos so I don’t always get to see the pure beauty of Sal’s shirts and they are things of beauty.
He has always worn his personality on his sleeve. Pun intended. ❤
What I’m taking away from this is that two governments are surprised that nobody wants to work for the naval support fleets when the job doesn’t pay enough.
Typical government being surprised by basic economics, I guess.
It is probably more than them.
What the government is laundering through the Ukraine, could buy a lot of merchant mariners.
I am curious to see how these mistreated CIVMARs respond when Chinese missiles start flying.
Thank you for making this video.
I live in the city of Portsmouth and have ships go past at the end of the road where I live.
Due to government cuts this year alone Royal Navy has been told to cut 12,000 jobs again (this this the 3rd time they made 12,000 people redundant, plus they have had no pay rises since 2010 as well.
Normally 5,500 people will retire each year but they still making 4 to 5,000 compulsory redundancies this year and not replacing anyone who leaves the service via getting another job, death or illness.
QED recruitment and retention are in the toilet and the Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxiliary have more ships than crews.
Hence why you have not seen the Royal Navy aircraft carriers(s) either in the Mediterranean, the Red Sea or the Indian Ocean - they can not get the crews to man the Royal Fleet Auxiliary ships to send out to sea so when on station in the locations weapons and fuel can not be supplied.
I heard fishy rishy is going to conscript schoolchildren
So, now the US wants another war in Taiwan? God, these guys are brilliant!
@@CraigTheBrute-yf7nothe worst part about what you said is that it is quite literal, the Prime Ministers plan is actually, legitimately, quite literally...to conscript 18 year olds
Can they not make offers more widely, like among Russian sailors?
Better for their health.
The solution is simple economics. If the pay and benefits offered don't fill the employment slots, then they need to be improved. The obvious manpower source to target would be merchant mariners on US flagged vessels. If the Military Sealift Command offered more generous pay and benefits than those provided in the private sector, then its billets would be full and it would be the commercial carriers with crewing problems.
If only we had some mechanism in capitalism to raise pay.....but alas it is beyond or power.
I am shocked at lack of pay raises, but also not so shocked as I currently work for a nonprofit and will be leaving it after just 3 years. A bad 3 years because of 1-2% raises with inflation averaging 5%. I've basically lost pay
Its more than that, at least in the U.S. Military pay has always lagged behind civilian pay. So when going in the military you usually have to want to do something than just earn a bunch of money. You have to want something more. Usually that's patriotism, a belief in what you are doing ect, education, ect.
Unfortunately we have raised several generations that don't really like the country they live in, or the west in general. In the 90's and 2000's this was made up due to higher recruiting from what would be considered "conservative" areas, again this is probably due to the higher levels of what would be considered patriotism in those areas. 2000's especially due to the short outpouring after 9/11. However now those same conservative areas have dropped due to the increasing politicization of the military against those same conservatives. Ask most veterans and they will tell their kids and grand kids not to go in. Those do have an effect over long periods of time.
@@CaptRR I wouldn't say parriotism has ever been highee in conservative areas although it may seem like thatnjust because of higher %s of enrollment. It is more because those states are less wealthy as evidenced by the amount of money the fedeeal govt takes in on a per capita basis from liberal vs conservative states. Is also evidenced by the amount of money spent on higher ed and the unemployment rate. Jobs such as those in the military have generally been more sought after by people in conservative states because of these factors. But yeah, to a small degree patriotism across all states has taken a hit with the rediculous us vs. them mentality between the Republicans and Democrats over everything. Both partys ripping the country a new one anytime something people generally agree on comes up in conversation. It's pathetic.
@@danam0228but are you surprised? I think the keyword was “nonprofit”….
My Dad was a Merchant Marine from 1942 until retirement in the mid-1970's. He belonged to the Masters, Mates, and Pilots Union. When I was younger I remember him being gone 9 months then home for 3 months then it was back on the list to get another ship. Later the MM&P got a better contract so he was gone 6 months and home 4. Then he'd get back on the list and in the meantime do relief work at the port. The days off MSC provides is crazy.
Sal, great job sticking up for folks with no voice
Unless they're Yemeni's.
Well said sir. From a Captain with 49 years experience behind me. This needs to be highlighted to the respective countries in neon lights.
I totally agree. Sal taught me a lot when I was protecting mariners as a case manager. Sal was wonderful. He helped me help others. I learned so much. He was grounded. Love Sal. ❤
Sal,
I was also in MSC. I started with 10 years in the Navy. I was with MSC for 29 years. I have since retired. Love your channel. I found it after the Dali. I just watched the crewing problems video. I saw one slide that showed average "salaries" for all the positions. This is misleading because it includes overtime and penalty pay. Overtime is very restricted. So , I don't believe those numbers. My highest year as a Chief Mate was $150K with everything included. Part of the recruiting problem is that there is not much recruiting everywhere the navy has a base. Instead they recruit off the streets of Norfolk.
The Philippines is probably their best bet to hire contractors.
@@TRONABORON Is that even possible with American licensed US Naval ships that essentially requires security checks and citizenship lmao? Keep those Philippines for companies that wanna low ball their crew to the lowest pay you will ever see on a vessel.
In the age of remote work from home being away on a ship with little leave for months on end is a very very undesirable job. To have such a poor leave schedule may have worked in prior times but no longer. Hiring people that are actually competent and who will stay with an employer for such a rough job now a days means to have higher pay and have much better benefits than in the past, people want a real life. I will also bet you that since the number of employees are so low in the American Navy for those jobs the crews are getting worked to death and fatigued, another big negative factor.
As a seafarer in the RFA thanks for bringing this to wider attention. Most of the UK population don't even realise we exist!
Spent 5 years in the USN was booted a few years back because my Rating was "overmanned." You get pay for... and when you pay noting you get nothing.
I sailed for MSC for 5 years before I quit and joined the MM&P. I never regretted that decision. MSC crews frequently were kept on board for a year or more and, when they finally did get off their ships, within a week or two the MSC dispatcher would be bothering them on the phone to go back to sea again. However, unlike on merchant ships, MSC crews do not sign articles and, instead of being paid at the end of a voyage, as is done on a merchant ship, MSC crews are paid every two weeks wherever the ship may be, "Navy-style". As a result, MSC crew members have little to lose financially by walking off their ships. The Navy officers who ran MSC could never comprehend why so many crew members used to walk off their ships. We could have explained it to them but the Navy never asked the people who sail on their ships for their advice or opinions about anything.
The Canadian Navy is have trouble recruiting as well. It's down 16% from needs, with some trades down 40%.
I remember a guy telling me back in the 80s that there was a 2 year waiting list to get into the Canadian Navy.
I used to be in the Royal Navy then later the Merchant Navy. In the Merchant Navy when I was in it, British flagged Ships accounted for about the 4th biggest fleet. Now all we have left is Royal Fleet Auxiliary as the biggest Ocean going fleet in the Merchant Navy, with about 6/7 ships. Any others are on Ferries.
1945-46 BRITISH SHIPS,,UNDER BRITISH FLAG,MANNED BY BRITISH CREWS AND IN SPITE OF WW2 LOSSES, SHIPS & CREWS, CARRIED 43.0 ~ 45.0 % OF ALL WORLD IMPORTS/EXPORTS .TODAY ..I HAVE NO IDEA BUT WOULD GUESS IT WOULD ONLY NEED TO SHIFT THE DECIMAL POINT TO THE LEFT
I sailed as a MSO (medical services officer) for MSC for a total 10 tears…I was never relieved on time on any of the ships I sailed on…I really enjoyed sailing…but planning any time off was near impossible due to the manning level of MSO’s…it’s the same with most of the ship board crew…I now have a son who is a d-Mach sailing for MSC and is experiencing the same situation…he likes sailing but this manning situation is creating a lot of hate and discontent among the CIVMARS…great report on the foibles of being a CIVMAR…
Gotta say Sal there is something about your manner, attitude and way of speaking that has me tuning in every time you post. Who knew shipping was so interesting. Thanks for all your insight.
I appreciate that!
Brilliant! My favourite way to start the day - Sal in barely controlled - but totally reasoned - full-on rant mode. And damn it - as usual, he's bang-on right.
I feel like anything that relies on a civil service structure of funding suffers the same cycle where nothing gets addressed until things break. No sense of proactive planning or support by government’s. You would think that since the military cannot function without this being healthy and supported that it would be a priority. Something breaks, they throw money at it. You have a brief period of stability and the slide to disrepair begins again as it is ignored again.
I am a retired Chief Petty Officer (20 years) from the US Navy. Because the MSC does not recognize the qualifications which USN sailors obtain while serving, it is almost impossible to move to the MSC from active USN service. If they wish to open a HUGE pool of experienced and qualified mariners to fill MSC positions, create a fast-track program for sailors leaving active duty to get jobs in the MSC. I loved my time at sea and would have jumped at the chance to move from the deck of my warship to the deck of the replenishment ship along side.
I'm amazed that USN qualifications are not recognized by the MSC, resulting in complete loss of highly skilled and seasoned sailors who completely understand the purpose of their mission. Simply changing that position by legislation could help solve the manpower problem by the stroke of a pen.
Ask them why they don't recognize; sounds like a strange cover up. Anybody can join the navy right off the street. If you don't get a guaranteed A school right out of boot camp you have no trained specialty. Your just a swab. Maybe that's the problem.😊
@@BrassLock Pretty sure it would not completely solve the problem but it is silly that my qualifications as Officer of the Deck Underway (literally being fully responsible for the operation and safe navigation of the ship during my watch, answerable only to the Commanding Officer and Executive Officer) holds absolutely no weight in the MSC or merchant fleet.
Unless you went to A or C school with a specific rate or talent after bootcamp your nothing but a swab who gets trained on the job. It's structure helps get dudes off the street. Judges will actually force criminals to join the service without their consent hoping it will straighten them out. Usually doesn't work and they go U.A. 1980'S U.S.N. Another experiment that didn't work. Division petty officer great lakes Illinois. The captured were marched to barracks under rifle point never to be seen again. Oct. 1979. 27 count.
Your better off going commercial under union. MSC should be taken over by a non exploiting company. Ships built in South Korea instead of the U.S.? go screw yourself.
Sal describes one aspect of the slow decline of a great power. Not by external action, but by a lack of maintainance. It will be a stark awakening when a neglected system is asked to respond to an emergency....and it isn't up to the task. All these details are the nuts and bolts of history. All empires decline, given enough time. Ex kitty cruiser USN NSG
Outstanding explanation of our current "Watery Woes" Sal!
As an ex Merchant Mariner, I wholeheartedly agree 100% with your sentiments. So depressing an outline of inexcusable, incompetence by the "Governing/Ruling Classes"!
Just as well I left the sea all those decades ago, when I realized that we & the "industry" were on a slippery slope, helter-skelter downwards. Very prescient of me for a change! I saw the future! Flags of convenience etc.
A pity, because I enjoyed my time sailing the oceans of the world back in the day. I try to keep in touch with "Matters Maritime", as I am fond of "shipping" (and your Channel BTW), yet I fail to understand why these highly-trained mariners have been criminally neglected for decades (DECADES)!! If the Proverbial suddenly hits the fan, then we truly will be in the Proverbial for sure! Submariners are called the "Silent Service", as I suppose you are aware. However, we should pinch that title and give it to the RFA and (US) Sealift Command. Get a grip you bureaucrats and fix this debacle ASAP!
Most people don't consider our countries worth fighting for anymore. And as a combat veteran, I mostly agree
I enjoyed your comments about time on a ship. I got off my last ship, the TransEastern, in 1971, after 22 months on her, half a day off in Hawaii after 14 months. Took years to become almost middle-class in behavior. I agree, it was too damn long, but as a young man, it fed my ego to serve my ship so much. I did it to myself more than the company did it to me. Laid her up in Port Neches, Texas; I was the last one off the ship.
Dear Sir, Please employ all your influence on our weak Congress to help all of our men at sea! We really need all of your expertise.
There is an issue with trained/skilled employee availability because much of American industry has gone elsewhere. Basic education is towards a college path, which is not for every personality and doesn't serve the labor requirements in any society. In a free market economy, the market must pay based on demand and availability. Awareness is also essential to fulfilling labor requirements. I have a nephew and it has just occurred to me that he might be perfect for sea service. Thanks Sal.
Jones act too? ( Ironically more needed now due to Biden administration incompetence and worse)
Sal another great video. You are spot on with your UK numbers. My last seagoing salary (offshore) in 2005 was £80k, I did a little extra work that year. That was as Master on gas ships with 12 years experience as Master. Unfortunately since the mid 80’s any UK government has not supported the MN. They allowed the oil majors to offshore the MN. They are still doing it relatively recently by allowing P&O to dismiss 800 UK staff without warning. Something you might have to ask is would you fight for the current crop of politicians? My honest answer would be NO.
During Vietnam, active duty leave time was 30 days per year served.
Plus variable duty sections shore leave while in port 48 hrs or 72 hrs weekends + "roapyarn sunday" / Wednesday afternoon beer, burgers & softball: provided by ship.
I worked 8 months as an AB for MSC. To get a 4 month relief you have to put in for it at month 2. At month 4 if you are not relieved you get an extra $1K for the 5th month, then up to $2K extra at month 8. I quit and went to NOAA, same damn leave problem!
Watched HMS St. Albans leave Belfast Lough yesterday and was thinking about this episode. Hell of an episode, Sam.
If you are on any type of military vessel out at sea there is risk. Ships are a dangerous place to live, you must pay attention to detail!
This is the kind of information that we need to know about!
Not sure if Navy leave has changed since 1990, but back then it was 30 days per year (accrued). I know I took 35 days between 1 Dec 88 and 15 Jun 90. Even back in 1990 it was "Sink the AOE and in 5 days the carrier is mission killed due to lack of ammo and jet fuel."
I love watching you get worked up on this stuff sal. You are not laid back anymore like on your commercial shipping videos. Sal for president!😊
Hi Sal. I have sailed commercially with ex MSC mariners. Twenty years ago they related to me, "timely" relief was a big problem. When the four month contract ended, it could be an additional 1-2 months before they could be relieved. I heard some wild stories of contrived personal emergencies to be evacuated/discharged from a ship when no relief was indicated.
I was in the US Army reserves many years ago. Then, in some aspects, the defense department was run like a "mom and pop" enterprise.
Maybe the organizations should stop treating their human resources like shit.
-Former CPO USCG
The MSC leave schedule hasn't changed since at least 1966 when I went to work for them (MSTS back then). In 1968 the 2 day per month shore leave was added which helped a little. In 1973 paid leave in the privately owned merchant fleet went to 15 days paid leave for every 30 days worked. By 1979 the private US fleet paid day for day vacation. In the case of a conflict there woul be mass resignations and the CIVMARS would move to the private fleet, which is already short of mariners.
Secretariat !
You kept me out of MSC - working as an OS on a Navy research vessel getting my AB soon. happy I stayed out of MSC, saving money, looking for good jobs for this winter, at it for 6 months n over all like it - worst part of the job is Gov oversight n how much they suck at their job’ I want to get into ROV work now
Thanks for the MSC coverage nice to know someone cares lol. I have a love for it but being detached from family and friends for so long I really don’t know if it’s worth it sometimes. The pay isn’t that great anymore. They take forever with promotions. Constantly messing up people’s checks and taking months to fix it. The time off is non existent and everything shore side is a sh*t show. I wanted to take a month off before a deployment after being on the ship for six months. My department head told me no I could only have two weeks after he just returned from a two month vacation. I had to call home and schedule a bunch of doctors appointments just to get the time off. Luckily my purser and immediate supervisor gave me that advice.
Hi Sal, glad you did this video. It's no wonder they can't find enough crew. One of the major problems i encountered was that the main office (which was in Bayone NJ.) and most ships officers treated crew very badly, there were a few good officers but not many.I worked for MSC for 9 years from the early 80's into the 90's. For the last 5 years i was ships carpenter which at the time was one paygrade above Bos'n mate. My last ship in that rating was the Saturn T-AFS 10 which i discharged from to go ashore for a while, get some R&R and a badly needed break. When i went back to Bayone to ship out i was told the carpenter's job had been done away with but the good news was that i was getting a promotion. So i asked the person talking to me what i was being promoted to. The answer was Bos'n mate. I told him it was a demotion and wouldn't take it and that the only position i would take would be Wiper. I found out a few months later that the carpenter's position was still there but the payrate was gone. The job was given to some AB who was dumb enough to work the carpenter's position for AB pay. So in a few days i was on a plane headed for Qatar going to board the Comfort T-AH20. You would think that a hospital ship would have all it's poop in one sock but at the time i was there it was absolute chaos which is the reason why SIU brought a class action suit against MSC. I won't get into any details here because i want to wrap this up but i can honestly say that living conditions & some working conditions were so bad, SIU won the case almost without a fight and the crew were recipients of a pretty good size pay out. Most people who have worked for MSC know that it doesn't stand for Military Sealift Command,, rather it's More Shit Coming.
Absolutely agree with you Sal
What you may not know about RFA Argus is that she can also do limited fuel transfer for both ship and aviation she can also do solid stores transfer (jackstay but also helicopter)
Also right now the RFA status is pretty poor we have 1 tide unable to sail due to crew shortage
both tides are extended readiness (cold reserve) they also have had a lot of equipment removed my estimate is we could put them back to sea in about 90 days if we got the crew for it
Fort Victoria our only multi role ship is laid up again lack of crew
So as it stands for stores we only have 3 tides right now that’s it
Sal, you are a very persuasive speaker with your ready knowledge at the front and centre of each observation you make. Im an old landlubber being given a window seat on shipping by your episodes, and I find each of them educational and fascinating.
Same as Canadian navy too. Our pathetic government made noises about purchasing South Korean built submarines. Sounds great on paper. However, the shortfall is, the navy has trouble retaining trained sailors and our arrogant and too numerous 40 admirals cannot admit to poor leadership policies creating a toxic atmosphere.
Adding to it, we only have 12 aging frigates. Our littoral fleet is much much worse off. Since 2014 they have "refitted" our twelve minesweepers removing its 40mm Bofors. Replacing it with nothing. Therefore our littoral fleet of some 22 vessels, only 6 with have 25 mil varmint cannon. Not a single piece of naval artillery capable of shore bombardment, No missiles, no depth charges, no 20mm CIWS, no torpedoes. The rigorous backbone of RCN shore patrol of 202,000 kms coastline: two WW2 machine guns per vessel. Eight Orca training vessels on our west coast (RCN refuses call them HMCS warships) because only 3 of them used to have .50 BMG mounted to help protect the Vancouver Olympics in 2010. Now nothing. And imaginary Cyclone helicopters. WTF
Yep, almost 17 years with MSC, last 7 or 8 as Master and it’s ridiculous. I was exceptionally frustrated mostly with leave but there are an array of other issues. Bottom line I could never get home. 4 months overdue last tour, got skipped in the relief list, next relief took reserve orders a week or so before supposedly coming out for me. In the end I’m sacrificing family time for what? Private sector was doing almost day for day with same pay. Made an easy choice to leave.
Another interesting episode. I'm a flatlander in Kansas with no marine background outside paddling a canoe. You do a great job pointing out concerns in both civilian and military ops and at the same time with a professional and optimistic manner.
Thank god. Was wondering when you would get to this. Thanks Sal. ⚓️
several reasons i prefer commercial ships ,msc ships are old,lack of maintance.less money,less time off. the union im in now i work when i want to work. i choose where i work
totally agree Sal - i have a huge problem with wages in general, woman are still paid less than men, and wages do not seem to stay in pace with inflation - to hear a wage has not been increased for 14 years just leaves me speechless - the biggest issue i have with employment today is the whole work ethic, the incentive to stay in such a job will prevent anyone else looking to join up - my dad was a copper, he worked silly hours, 12 hr days, shifts, and it burns people out, and they in their respective work become switched off
to have alternate people working rotating 12 hour shifts makes me cringe because the lifestyle you lead is very damaging with practically no social life, i do not see any reason why their cannot be a standard 8hour shift, three people rotating, which will mean employing a third more people
and the whole wage thing, it disgusts me, damn right Navy, cough up, pay the correct wage and keep up with inflation, if there is no incentive, damn right you will suffer badly in the end, and when the workforce is down, accidents will happen
Thanks!
You are entertaining and informative. I am not a mariner, but your explanations help me understand things better. Thanks for the excellent work
Im headed to SUNY Maritime in the fall for grad school and deck license. Thank you for your videos! Maybe one day you can do a huge info dump on the many options of ships/ companies a deck officer can work on
I just spoke with a friend that is in the management of MSC. She spoke of the issue with manning shortages.
One source of mariners not being tapped is the retired sector. It is so difficult to return a license in continuity to active, many that want to return to sea don't. MSC should approach one of the maritime schools concerning an offering of a curriculum that would lay out the path for retired to return to active sailing. I for one would be there.
I'm older and in my younger days I was employed in the maritime industry. 2 years ago I wanted to come back, couldn't reinstate my license and couldn't pass the physical because I am on an anti anxiety medication. Maybe they should relax some of their criteria, it would open up a whole new pool of experienced mariners who are in their 2nd or 3rd life, kids long since gone etc.
Seems we had this same crewing problem around 1812ish.
........that why they went to Africa looking for black men...
@@jimmylam9846 Whoever told you that Jimmy, lied to you. Navy's give swords and guns to sailors in order to do battle. Slave owners do not arm up the people they want to keep down. Even today many politicians do not want the public to have easy access to Arms. It's harder to keep them down.
Ciao, paesan. Siciliano, USN (Ret.) Interesting for the info. Makes me glad I didn't do MSC. However, I am concerned with another staffing problem, the Fleet. My grandson just enlisted in the USN for subs, he's going to be a cook. He told me that during his process lots of kids were turned away for failure to pass drug tests. Now that most states look the other way for pot (I taught for 22 years after the Navy, pot in MS & HS is real.) there will come a time that few potential recruits will qualify for service, officer or enlisted. Solution. Allow druggies in. Make severe penalties in the enlistment contract. ?? I'll bet the same will happen with the MSC.
I think you're absolutely right.
Since pot is legal in Canada, our service men and women are allowed to use it as well. They just need to follow sobriety rules, same as for alcohol: no use within 8 hours before duty, or 24 hours if they're going to be handling weapons or vehicles. Sure there's the odd "problem child" to deal with, but we always had those with booze anyway, and so we already have the disciplinary tools in place to deal with that.
@@robglenn4844 Yup. That's what I see coming. But, I wouldn' t put it past the US resisting until it is a serious crisis.
@@robglenn4844 Many years ago, around 1982, I was high-lined over to an HMCS replenishment ship from a US destroyer. As a Navy PO2, I was thoroughly impressed with the quality of life on board. One great perk was the beer mess...and not just 2 a day like I thought. As many as I wanted. Was invited to have a few beers with my Canadian cousins and when I walked into the bar, the empty beer cans were stacked on the table, almost touching the overhead! We sat around swapping sea stories and one Sailor knocked back his beer, slammed it on the table, and roared, "Off to watch!" Now he could have been playing with the Yank Squid, but I don't think so.
Shortly after, the coxswain came in and said the beer was shut off for the night. "Aye, coxswain!" said one of the crew. Coxswain left and five minutes later, one of the guys got up, walked over to the beer machine and...opened it with a key instead of putting money in it. LOL! That's what the coxswain keyed on so that he knew beer was still being bought. Later on he told me that the crew went through 40,000 cans of beer in a shortened WestPac! I believe it. Hopefully, things have changed.
Having said all this, though, I can say without reservation that the Sailors on that ship were incredibly professional. These men really knew their profession. My hat's off to them!
Excellent, solidarity, there are a load of Brits screaming at the screen when you said the RFA haven't had a pay rise since 2010, neither has anyone else.... it's all politics Sal, all the best, the Untidied Kingdom.
It is called "working to rule"...one step short of a strike
Serious stuff actually and causes more damage than an actual strike
Great point on the U.S. Merchant Marine shortage.
The same math problem exists with other public service professions. In the Corrections sector, the shift relief factor (SRF) doesn’t always account for the others on the watch bill pool who are on earned vacation, sick, covering for vacant positions, FMLA entitlement, or on convalescent leave.
Hi Sal another brilliant video keep them coming
Another problem that the RFA suffers from is that these days they are one of very very few British ship operators that employ British Seafarers - Maersk is doing everything it can to make all European (not just UK ) leave the sea by degrading their terms of employment and giving below inflation pay increases despite making profits in the tens of billions of Euros/Dollars. Nobody except the RFA trains British seafarers today too. Even the big cruise ship operators that still use the names of old established British Companies don’t register their ships in the UK - they are all basically American owned by Carnival, yet because they are registered in British Overseas Territories (tax fiddles) they can fly a Red Ensign so the passengers are not aware that they aren’t being taken around the world by UK employed or trained crews for the most part.
Old news-there Philippines put out the most workers better trained, hard working then any euro workers...
This is sooo informative! My son works for MSC and everything you said is spot-on.
Really interesting video. Im from UK didn't know rfa was paid so crap.
Time off for us civilian crew is ridiculous. Well done sal hopefully this get picked up by uk press.
Great video Sal. Your knowledge of shipping and logistics is incredible! Keep up the great work.
Perhaps if the govt. hadn't had the genius idea to put an expire date on z-cards. During 'Desert Storm' I sailed on Cape Alexander (MSC) and because she was powered by steam it was necessary to hire 'old hands" to crew up. A good thing their z-cards hadn't expired.
Thanks for bringing this front and center, Sal. It's true, you don't have a military if you don't have solid logistics to support it.
I don't know a stinking thing about shipping, but I love Prof. Sal's knowledge, manner and style. I learn something with every episode.
me too, I first found him during 2020, been learning ever since.
I guess there's always going back to impressment. I hear that the crew on the Dali aren't going anywhere soon...
The oil-workers on our platforms have similar issues, and concerns, both from the time away from family or bases, and the danger of getting there. For our oil-guys, they got a huge increment in salary, PLUS they got overtime if they had to work off-schedule. As a result we had a whole swarm of our guys moving onto the oil rigs, especially to Indonesia, where if they worked for about 3+plus years, they could come home, but a house with cash, and for practical purposes, just get any other job, and be able to survive forever. Some of those also went to Alaska, and to the Baltic. The company paid for all of the Food, Entertainment (TV, Inet, Movies, no prostitutes), vacation back home, family leave, medical (very good), exercise gyms, etc. 3-year term was typical. Military is a good place to get a basic skill, but then get out, to a real job... Sorry to say that, since my father was military.
Around the time that MSC decommissioned the Z101 building on NOB (Norfolk base) there was
some kind of administrative reorganization too. I was new at the time (~circa 2006) and the only
thing I could see is that all of the old timers quit in droves. I'm still not sure why but a number
of new directives had come out, they didn't like them and they had plenty of time in so they quit I
think. (The Z101 building was the place where people that weren't assigned would wait for a ship.)
For example, if you lost your Coast Guard (Z-card at the time) document you would be ejected
from the complex and considered AWOL! There wasn't any clear information at the time as to
what to do about this so lots of folks just went home. I was one of those folks. My understanding
is that things have gotten a lot worse since with GS-12 admins that don't know why Dec. 7, 1941
is important in naval history, and many admins that are not even Americans. Not good. Can't
work there.
So US Navy might be outsourcing Navy ships to be built by allies like South Korea, and now they have problems finding crew.. so maybe they will have to outsourced crew also?
Fantastic Sal, as usual mate! I spent 8 months in a reefer as 2nd officer...LOL no rotation!
For all the reasons Sal has outlined, I have discouraged my son from joining MSC. Not to mention they are not recognized by the DOD despite doing the heavy work for the Navy and other forces.
Good and important discussion.
A very important issue that😮 would be hard for most to make interesting but you pulled it off with flying colours!!
I retired with 30 years with Military Sealift Command. There exist within not just the comsc and staff but within the CIVMARS themselves of not pushing to administer the commercial model irt to crew rotations and vacation scheduling. While having this model would not probably solve the crewing problems in 2024, msc could probably weather the current billet shortages they are experiencing.
What doesn't help is the office staff and comsc treating the civmars like crap.
You can not have a person overdue 2, 3, 4, sometimes 6 months overdue, and call them back while they are unpacking their seabag.
I've been out of the game for 5 years, IMHO I think msc is past the tipping point to fix it.
I had the port captain call me as I was driving up my driveway after 16hrs on the road from Virginia. Had to come back, cargo needed to be loaded. Sorry dude, Captain just paid off the entire cargo department and sent us all home! Go bother him about it.
@MerchantMarineGuy
One thing I forgot to mention is their Ship' s Funded Leave policy sucks. It's a band-aid on a femoral artery.
And I see the Australian military is looking abroad for personnel
BTW it's great to hear you showing such a great understanding of RN/RFA issues!
Must say the RFA pay dispute has made zero impact in the UK news media
Not really its people living in australia with PR and from a Fiveyes country (US, UK, CAN and NZ) so its a very small group of people. The other scheme is lateral transfer for current serving military from other countries. Generally again from a 5 eyes country, lateral transfers have existed since the 50's
I have a few friends that worked for MSC that now work for Chouest. They like the flexibility that Chouest offers, and they say that pay and quality of life are better as well.
Why would you enlist and join the navy or army and be paid half of what you could earn in civilian life? In 2009 we conducted a Defence Review in Australia and determined that base pay for a recruit has to be near to the average wage to attract decent candidates. Now a new private or seaman in our military starts on $58k and escalates faster than before. The result is from having a severe shortage of recruits, there is now a waiting list and people with tertiary qualifications are enlisting. This is what the US and UK military have to do. In the US Army they only pay $28k for a recruit. Thats just plain robbery. Thats less than unemployment benefits in my country.
The U.S. army and navy still think it's 1939. In many respects they are both washed up and totally obsolete just from a fighting aspect alone. Why fight for corrupt business controlled politicians; oligarchs and war is economical mongers. Billions wasted on garbage issues.
The EPF program has sucked up an incredible amount of CIVMARs for a program of dubiable utility. And they are replacing 14 T-AO’s manned at 85-90 people with 20 of the new class which take 120-130 mariners. Plus the new ATF class and you should see how many of the Next Generation Logistic ships they want. That 6,000 Mariner number will likely increase to at least 10,000 needed by 2030. Everyone likes to say that the USMM is short officers and blaming the academies but the truth is the biggest shortfalls is in the unlicensed side, especially experienced UNREP personnel like able seamen and boatswains mates and specialized positions like communications personnel and some unlicensed engineers. I saw an electrician go almost a full year overdue for lack of a relief. That’s imprisonment.
The rot started at the bottom well before COVID and while some gains have been made, not being able to find entry level utilitymen, ordinary seamen and oilers should have been a huge red flag. They should never lack for a relief! It’s absurd.
I was on a US Navy fleet oiler (AO) in the mid-70s. When underway, we would often meet up with USNS oilers to top off our tanks.
Pay does seem to be the key factor. However, I believe there are other factors are at play, such as low national morale, the government's treatment of British citizens/MP incompetence, and an ideology that has infected the HR department and higher-ups
I went through captains school and passed but didn't get my masters license because the pay was just not there to justify it.
The RFA was the jewel in the crown of the naval service (and the Falklands could never had been recovered without it) and it’s been left to whither on the vine
I think the STUFT ships had something to do with it also.
@@iansinclair7581 absolutely 100 percent agree
You can not play on your cellphone when you are in the middle of the ocean 😂
Starlink bro
@esotericcommonsense6366 not nec. in MSC...youngster.
I hate to break it to the Starlink bros, but real jobs require paying attention to your environment at all times, or dying.
If your head is in your phone, you absolutely WILL get people killed!
@esotericcommonsense6366On a warship, it depends on OPSEC and you can be certain that everything you do online is far from being private.
@robdog1245 the younger people don’t know that,
It always seems to be the same with Government,Federal ,State and local level,Thanx for the insight Sal,,!
Funny you mention the RFA and 2010, I deployed on Wave Ruler in 2010. Beautiful ship! Hardworking crew!
Thanks, amazing to see the depth of operational deficiencies. Wonder what the wartime OR analyses look like when you add in defending the supply fleet. Terrifying
USN has already told MSC they will not be defended. CIVMARs will effectively be very big, slow targets for Chinese missiles.
Well said as always Sal. Best to you and sailors