Great music comes (in my opinion) from love.... I still believe in a thing called love, don't think is from tormented people, but sometimes live is good, sometimes bad, sometimes I'm happy, sometimes I'm realy sad.... the darkness is a side as also the light..... and Vincent was also sad but was a great painter .... Black or white, no inbetween, your hell on earth or sweetest dream..... 😊
Great music is created when the universe aligns your brain with your most basic human form of existing. Just like you, my good friend. Thank you for your videos, it's almost like a terapy. Namaste 🙏
I wrote my best poem ever, when I lost my best friend suddenly 15 years ago. Before that, I'd only written a few poems at school...and they weren't the best 😬 When my friend passed away unexpectedly however, my head took on this melancholy, hyper aware, creative state and the words just flowed into my head without really trying. My poem was all about our relationship and it was read out at her funeral. I was very proud.
Robin Williams brought so much joy through his own personal inward pain. You bring a lot of joy, mate. Letting the pain go will keep you alive longer. And as a '75er myself, I would appreciate that.
I will be 70 in August, I started playing guitar again after many years. When I was young I played with friends and was gaining technique and had a knack for writing lyrics but I was never satisfied with the outcome even though I received many compliments. Eventually, I just said f&&k it and went to work bought a house etc. etc. etc. I found myself single at the age of 68 and I loved it and decided it was time to start playing again. After realizing what had been missing, music theory and today all you need to learn is a keyboard away, with the internet and all. Yeah, I'm one of those who need to understand what I'm doing as much as I can. I feel at ease now with myself as I move ahead little by little. I've tried writing again but it is coming back slowly. Am I tormented? Yes and pissed that The end is in sight, reality, no I'm not sick, as a matter of fact, I'm in great shape, however, there comes a time when you become more aware of time. So do I believe in the tormented artist? Yes, but that can come from many things and one of those is the feeling that what you are doing should be better, or somewhere along the way you missed out by circumstances that will come to everyone, but, I will not whine and cry about it, no, always move forward. By the way Justin don't worry about lighting and such, we understand your doing your best in the situation.
I'm 70 next April. I was a musician (lead guitarist, song-writer) all my life until I stopped 25 years ago. Recently took it up again and am aware that time surely must be short now. Like you, with the incredible access to info and teaching that the internet provides I have been learning a little musical theory and realise in retrospect how useful it would have been back in the band/studio days. When I started, the sum total of "the recording process" was that the band came in and simply did a live performance and the studio recorded it - end of story, that was the Product and was pressed up and put out. The technology available to me now is astonishing - this is what I needed forty years ago! Ah well ..... I'm just trying to get an album made before my time does run out. :-) As far as the tortured artiste thing goes........ Creativity is both a blessing and a curse. If you have that type of mind then things trigger you. Suddenly you can hear music that does not exist yet in the real world and your compulsion is to bring it into being, a process which swoops and dives from the heights of ecstasy to the pit of utter despair. Happy is something you just are - there isn't really much to say about it and when happy, we do not spend much time actually thinking about how happy we are. Sadness is a different thing. It's a wider subject with much more scope and when sad we spend a lot more time brooding on it and analysing it. The fundamentals of music itself are also somewhat slanted towards sadder moods. Major sounds "happy" but is much more restricted because you can only really play in the Major, Lydian and Mixolydian modes (scales). Minor on the other hand sounds sad, but in minor there is a lot more scope. There are a multitude of minor scales, the different flavours they produce are more powerful and nuanced and there is more freedom to mix-and-match and blend one into the other.
You mentioned Van Gogh at the end of the podcast....he was ill most of his life, but when he was in deep despair, he was so overcome that he was unable to paint. During his more stable times emotionally, this is when he had the ability to create the works we still get to enjoy today. I truly feel that if someone is constantly in a state of full despair, they don't have the attention to create properly. I've known people like this, and they are dead now (thus they cannot create, right?). Balance is best!!! AND you know you can rewire your brain with exercises so that it is not always anxious, right? That's my two cents worth
@@NinStardust I realise I am in fact turning into my mother, when I see damaged clothing and immediately want to almost forcibly fix it. It's very distracting! 😂
I do think it could help but I think Justin is Brilliant because he’s Brilliant, no matter what the case may be. I would love to give both of you hugs, I can SO relate.🥰
I just found your channel the other day. I scrolled past but the name sounded familiar and when I placed why, I had to go back and watch the video. I love hearing you talk about your art and experience. Your fame came right as I was learning guitar and the raw power of the guitars in The Darkness inspired me, and for 20 years your songs have been stuck in my head. Thank you for the inspiration and great music!
As far as I can tell both Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen seem to have had long periods of relative happiness and stability. And they produced some of the most soul searching music I know of.
Your such a light for alot of us. I thank you for this. I hate to see you discribe yourself as such or put yourself in tormented box but unfortunately I completely understand.
All happy, and the music comes off as a bit niave after a while. All torment, and the music comes out all dark and depressing after a while. It appears Both are necessary to create masterpieces. An artist must know the dark and the light, to paint with all the colors and depth needed.
I had forgotten what a pain in the ass feelings were, and how well I had avoided them, until quite recently. I re-connected with my first boyfriend. Our relationship ended on a complicated note. Not badly, just oddly. I thought my feelings(from 45 years ago, ffs.) had been resolved. I walked around the first month of our re-acquaintance feeling like someone had knocked the air out of me. It took me a good four months to come back to equilibrium, or as I like to call it: Re-burying those feelings so deeply the sun never shines on them again.
As long I can can see the shirt Justin we are doing well. I imagine that everywhere you roam, grocery store picking up some radishes, you are standing there being exquisitely lit. You carry it with you. And your song writing comes from both the tears falling on said radishes, and a sense of humor to turn it into something that relates to people and our shared experiences. Keep up the good work cousin. Cheers 🤘
4:27 - I watched Get Back, and Paul did not come off as godlike, he came off as a domineering personality that rubbed even his friends sometimes the wrong way. He had good reasons to be rushed and irritable, but he was abrasive, and if I were George I would have walked out too. George was bending over backwards to be accommodating at first, and it was never good enough, so he got angry, perhaps a bit more than was called for, but I get it. Get Back reveals all 4 as Real people making really memorable songs, that's what makes it so amazing, it humanizes all of them, and nobody got out of it looking like the angel or the devil, they're just people in the end, which is awesome!
Songs that resonate with people and make them emote in whatever way are meaningful and memorable. Often songs can be attached to a memory of a place/person that can make you smile or cry. If music doesn’t make you emote in some way the music can’t be any good in the first place .
@@Joe-mz6dc Everyone usually remembers it for the infamous guitar riff and raw emotion from Clapton, but I absolutely love the piano outro to that song it’s masterful ❤️.
I'm so glad you mentioned Speed of the Night - for me it's nostalgic (late teenage angst, love and longing, Top Gun, The lost Boys, hanging out with cooler, older slightly goth mates of my brother, dry ice....) Probably a totally different interpretation from yours but it hits me in the gut every time. Wether you as an artist set out to portray that or not it's an incredibly powerful gift. I wish you wouldn't criticise your "screeching" listening back to all you back catalogue but I have to admit to another solar plexus punch from Forbidden Love. Maybe not my favourite but ah, the vocals....
50:32 "I've seen people enjoy themselves" 😂 I laughed out loud at this! I just loved this conversation, I've spent most of my life wondering how other people deal with their anxieties and whether some people really do just have no interior life whatsoever, and whether that brings contentment... Therapy did eventually help me gain some emotional maturity to observe my fear and sadness and "dance" with it sometimes - work in progress. The question of whether you have to be in the throws of an emotion to successfully convey it is so interesting. Are my favorite songs just a bucket of emotion that resonates with me? Some are also beautifully crafted stories that I can't help but be moved by - it doesn't have to be so raw. I think you're both right. I watch that Elizabeth Gilbert lecture at least twice a year. Please don't stop making these Monday podcasts!
I don’t think you have to be a tortured soul to write good music or be creative in any way. You just have to be in touch with your emotions and create experiences and interactions with people. Life is torturous enough without inflicting additional pain and suffering on yourself. And brooding self-pity is nowhere near as sexy as certain vampire movies make it out to be. You’ll find plenty of emotions to draw inspiration from simply by living and the most powerful experiences are often thrown upon us out of the blue. You just have to recognise them when they happen. Life is short and frequently painful, so take happiness wherever you can find it. Believe me, that can be incredibly inspiring too. 💖
I’m not sure they need to be tortured as in the traditional sense of always being in a state of painful anguish. I think they’re tortured in a way in which they’re somewhat constantly overcome with feelings that they need to express or else they’ll combust.
Love the honesty and openness amidst all the darkness. Sadness is almost a trademark in great songs, my two cents. And the keys really make the artist/song/band. I love singing on top of Cs and Bs, As, and Es. Minor, major... Nick Cave adds violence to the picture, literally. Brilliant artist/writer/singer. Having Jenny as a producer is an understatement because she's so brilliant and adds so much to the whole 'prrroducion' as you single-handedly put it, Justin. It's been a fun ride. Thanks again, and again. BTW: you should try surfing (got the 'physique'). If I could, I'd go every day. Tried when a kid, still on my bucket list. Will do.
Jenny May, oh my days. So lovely. Hair, accent, mannerisms, personality. I'm jealous Justin gets to sit and shoot the breeze with this beautiful soul every day.
The next episode i will write notes to remind the things i want to comment! 😅 I always forget them... To answer the question; If the best songs come from tortured artists or content artists. My favourite ones, i think come from sadness or darkness... But because of my personality i guess...anyway some of my favourite songwriters have writen beautiful songs in a happy period. There is a song from a Spanish singer and songwriter (his name is Joaquín Sabina) which calls Oiga Doctor (Listen to me Doctor), the song is bassicly about a songwriter who lives in the depression and he goes to the psichologist to feel better and after the treatment he becomes a happy person. It's an hilarious song in what he ask to the doctor to take him back the depression because he is not able to write anything since he is happy 😂 I found very interesting againnnn the topic, and very funny to know that you don't like to listen your own voice... But i understand you because i write things and i don't like to read myself... In fact if i do i probably remove it... But we love your voice in the recording version and live... Heart Explodes is one of my favourites songs of you... Great roles, you like "darkness" and Jenny like light... Brilliant... Love for you both ❤
There are many artists that suffer from manic depression, but don't seek treatment because it flattens the creative process sadly. This also leads them to abuse substances from being unstable.
You were right I did very much enjoy this topic. To add to my previous comment on the last video though there is a fine line between being tortured/depressed enough to write good music and descending into a place where you can't even be bothered to get out of bed. If the pain/sadness etc is put into the music it is no longer in my head. Even listening to 'sad' music (as my mum would call it) allows me to process the internal sadness. I often think that some of the angry bands like metallica start to wither as they lose things to be angry about. Hard to be angry when you have $50million sitting in the bank.
I ended my involvement with my band because being the front and known as the most miserable angry guy in a large city. It was killing me, went back to painting, stopped when I fell in love. Now my dads dead, I don't need anyone's approval. I don't crave any success, I do only what I want without a schedule for the ladder
Thanks! Everyone has painful things they can tap into if needed, but you can be happy despite all the pain. Actors will tap into a painful memory when they need to cry on queue. The pain is there if you need it, but you don't need to live in it. It does take some work, and it doesn't happen overnight, but it can be achieved. Besides, pain isn't the only thing needed to create great songs. Inspiration works as well. ;)
I’ve recently emerged from that sadness but there is the aspect of personal growth. Feeling necessary. As we age artists who integrate deepen and produce better stuff.
All of the happiest, most well adjusted 'normal' people I know are gardeners, but I live inland, so surfing is out. The absolutely happiest man I ever met was my great uncle, who was struck by lightning, whilst gardening, twice!...so er, maybe that's a winning combination for good mental health?
I'm a gardener (work and hobby). I hate to say it, but I think a lot of us gardeners also suffer from 'tortured creative' syndrome (if you're in the UK, think Monty Don, Arthur Parkinson...).
I think you write some of your best songs, the ones that really resonate, when you’re sad or have been through a bad time; ‘Heart Explodes’ is one of the best Darkness songs, and even though ‘Christmas time’ is ostensibly a festive tune it’s really a bittersweet break-up song in disguise and I love it for that.
Torment is a state of being; life is painful, with creativity being a way that pain is processed, made right, transformed and released but like all things, and time moving forward, the torment returns. Creativity is the act of taming the chaos. Art, the rare outcome of all this toil ….that’s only achieved when it touches another. That is much rarer. Art has a longevity as it touches on a truth through time. Sure, happy folks can make a kind of art but I haven’t found it interesting and it never holds up over time. As for the dark, I have to live in it. My MS requires it sometimes as the headaches and Optic neuritis is blinding. The nature of my disease has stolen my tools, my ability to express so it’s had to evolve but creativity has never ceased. Aging has great gifts if you’ve been open to understanding and a forgiveness and bliss is touched upon.
I feel you. I have trigeminal neuralgia. AKA the suicide disease because it's so painful. It's brought me to some very dark places that I'm still trying to crawl out of.
@@chi_cedar14 ….you know oh too well KJAC. I had severe trigeminal pain from 2016 to 2022 and it started to ease off. They put me on Tysabri. Not sure it’s responsible for easing it up or it burnt out from what it was. It occasionally flares up but there was a slow end to the seemingly endless; too slow. I thought it was shingles….nope. It was another MS symptom in a long line that I never put together. I wasn’t a neurologist ….I had no idea. I never knew. I ended up having a bunch of brain stem lesions which I just learned correlate with that location. Ice, anitflam cream-voltaren(?). Softens the pain away for moments but it is horrific unrelenting pain with nothing that touches it. And then the headaches. Sometimes it’s just finding three notes and a melody to get through to the next moment. I wish the best for you. That’s sometimes just a personal version of creativity that had a good feedback. A very personal version of art I suppose. Definitely tormented.
As soon as they started talking about an artist who would take their work seriously, sit down and write, I instantly thought about Nick Cave and it was quite fun that Justin went to Nick Cave also. He has that aura about him. An artist creating art.
I think there are some tortured artists who push the boundaries in ways that contented artists cannot. I also think that you can write a good song without torture. The question that I have is, which came first the torture or the artist. Do tortured artist create the environment of torture in order to create art, or do they become artists to deal with the torture.
It’s the trope of tropes. Of course you can write without being miserable. Because songwriters are story tellers. They have imagination and can put themselves in various situations and feelings. And then relate that to you. If they are any good,of course.
At around 28 min you are discussing the ulimate tortured artist, would say jackson c frank is up there, that was one tortured soul. Thanks for the nice discussion, love you Justin and ofc Jenny ❤
39:05 Funnily enough, "Good vibrations" by The Beach Boys is classified by neuroscientists as the happiest song of all times🤙🏄♂️🏄♀️🏄😄 (other studies show it's "Don't stop me now" by Queen❤) This podcast has triggered my will to research more about many aspects related with music and psychology! It's so fascinating😍
Loving these deep, philosophical discussions & mention of the Heroes Journey 🙌🏻 Justin- do you need someone to sew up that hole in your shirt for you?🧵 Or are you ok with letting your shirt stay tortured 😅
I agree, I want to take needle & thread and repair it, but I think given the material, it would fray, ugh. Yes he has a jumper with left shoulder hole, probably couldn't get it off the hanger fast enough and it tore. I think he likes tortured clothing, like torn, very fitted or unbuttoned to the navel!
I am also a seamstress & trained costumier, & would happily fix it up if we were on the same continent (just sayin’😅) 🤣 (edit: but not in a creepy way🤣)
You're feeling all the same feelings everyone else feels, it's just that you know how to play an instrument and you might have a talent for putting it into words that fit into a song. I didn't listen to the whole thing but you should do one of these things about what kind of person just so happens to be the kind of person who can write songs, what sets them apart?
I find it way easier to write lyrics when I'm upset, or about when I was upset, than I do when I'm happy. I also tend to like songs and bands that put out more tortured content. Writing while not bothered about anything is only really possible if I have an epiphany I guess, like I think of a new way of seeing something and I have to express it, but outside of that, when I'm happy, I barely write at all.
i agree, i don't like to listen to my own music, the songs doesn't even sound the way we're playing it live nowadays, and it's because of that you just said, the songs werent fully matured and developed at the time we recorded them, it's frustrating.
I only ever write when I’m down, desolate or hurting but on the other hand the guitar has always been my saviour, all i need to do is pick it ap and let my fingers do the walking and the talking.
I think most people who are content all the time tend to not be creative types and dare I say might even be dull. I think you have to want to express something within you in order to be creative. that desire is what causes the creative drive to come out.
Todd Rundgren titled an album "The Ever Popular Tortured Artist Effect". It was a throw away LP to satisfy a contractual obligation with his label but contained his stadium anthem "Bang the Drum" which came to him in a dream.
Maybe it is a case of having a lot of experience in life, which builds a better foundation from which to create something worthwhile, not necessarily torment in itself. However, it's hard to have experience without it including sad and dark things.
I love Collin Hay. After being on top of the music world with Men At Work, he lost it all and fell into the usual trouble with drugs and alcohol. The journey back from rock-bottom helped him to write some beautiful songs. Add in the deaths of first his father, then his mother, as well as the pain of lost love, and he had a deep well of emotion from which to draw inspiration for years. More recently he has started to enjoy a bit of commercial success again. He has fallen in love and gotten married. By all accounts, he is very happy. At the same time (and it feels uncomfortable to admit this) his music seems to have lost the depth and meaning it once had. If feels a bit more shallow, and certainly less personal. Could it be that the pain of heartbreak and loss was the muse he once used but then lost as his life turned bright again?
Brian Eno basically says it comes from the community, the people you mix with, your influences etc., not just the individual. I think this holds true in the early New York community for Bob Dylan and the way his lyrics change as he moves about. The songwriter needs both empathy and writing skill to 'channel' the community though and this isn't the same for everybody. I hear both 'angsty' and 'smug' songs and I think that also depends on both lifestyles and communities.
Andy Summers mentioned something similar in an interview many years ago. He said one can only become the best musician and artist possible if they also live a full life outside of music. It was a fascinating interview and I hope to find it again one day. I forget his exact wording and I'm not doing it justice, but the bottom line is he said in order to become the best artist/musician you can be, you have to tap into your own life experiences and channel that into your music. Your music is a sonic reflection of your personal life and experiences. 😀
Happy news! Paul McCartney has just announced that AI is being used to finish the final Beatles song, likely ‘Now And Then’, for release later this year.
There's a nice Kubrik-like quality. Desaturated, very bright unnatural light on her side. Anyway, I just tend to write songs about whatever happened to me or I observed that day. I love lyrics about dark subjects put to inappropriately catchy, upbeat melodies and rhythms.
Understanding and lessons from pain are the most important resource for the psychology of mankind. Suffering artists are necessary to shine a light to either show people that they are not alone or transform pain into wisdom to live by. Suffering in a world without art is useless, suffering with art makes mankind transcend in emotional intelligence. We grow from our troubles but only if we can self reflect, and that is art.
The campfire scene. The truth is, Justin, you can play this acoustic guitar so much more professionally and effectively, you can use your voice in a much more beautiful, expressive and emotional way than any other person and melt every present woman's and man's heart, produce joy, fire or tears on a whim. So you should either take part and demonstrate them how it's really done or walk past with a smile on your lips knowing that you can do it so much better! That's all.
During a severe nervous breakdown I wrote an entire book of poetry in 6 weeks. I did not sleep much and was mostly alone. The poems that I didn't think were good I ditched but I still like some of the one's that were published. I didn't eat much, went out rarely and poetry just poured out of me. That was 10 years ago and I've written very few poems since. I don't think contentment produces the best art.
Addition to my last comment: there has been some incredible music written from a place of joy and happiness. The white album by The Beatles has several examples of this.
I don’t know Justin. When I was a teenager I wrote a lot of very dark poetry. I guess every teenager is a tormented soul maybe. As I got older I guess sh$t got real so now I’m more hesitant to write really dark stuff. I still like to regardless of my emotional state. I think it’s more difficult to write something truly happy.😊
I think you can allow yourself to be happy but I have to admit the torture helps with great art. I have to say as well... If the theme song has become torturous to go through it's time for a new one or none at all! You're under no obligation!
I think that there are a lot of tortured people in the world, in one way or the other. And so in any social grouping of people, including artists, some amount of those will be tortured ones. I don’t think you have to be tortured to be great, but maybe if you’re tortured you have a little extra something. On the other hand, some will have the opposite - a little extra something that makes art difficult to make. We all have our crosses to bear, so many different kinds of em.
Hmmmm. Perhaps it is not a question of whether or not you NEED to be tortured to make good music, but whether or not you can TURN your inevitable torture into a good thing, and even use it as a form of therapy. Writing the music itself gets things out that you wouldn't otherwise have been able to articulate, the music adds a level of language that words alone cannot express, and sometimes it is those complex unknown feelings that NEED to be expressed before we move on with our lives. Perhaps, too, the torture does not need to remain a constant, but a stop on our paths, long since passed. Like was stated in the video, one of Justin's most successful songs was written at a time when he was feeling pretty alright, after he'd gotten through the darkness. Maybe it is ok to revel in the torture, while you're there, but also okay to let yourself step out into the light, after your stay there is done.
So, where does the best music come from?
Most of my songs have come from a place of hurt and pain.
Tormented like Ren Gill’s latest, my god he is a generational artist and I’m so glad you did that interview. His latest one , geez it hits you ❤️😞
From inside
Great music comes (in my opinion) from love.... I still believe in a thing called love, don't think is from tormented people, but sometimes live is good, sometimes bad, sometimes I'm happy, sometimes I'm realy sad.... the darkness is a side as also the light..... and Vincent was also sad but was a great painter .... Black or white, no inbetween, your hell on earth or sweetest dream..... 😊
Great music is created when the universe aligns your brain with your most basic human form of existing.
Just like you, my good friend.
Thank you for your videos, it's almost like a terapy.
Namaste 🙏
I wrote my best poem ever, when I lost my best friend suddenly 15 years ago. Before that, I'd only written a few poems at school...and they weren't the best 😬 When my friend passed away unexpectedly however, my head took on this melancholy, hyper aware, creative state and the words just flowed into my head without really trying. My poem was all about our relationship and it was read out at her funeral. I was very proud.
Justin’s transformation into Neil Gaiman is nearly complete.
Comment of the day!
Lol
Lmao truth
Morpheus of the endless hears you and quietly approves.
Eventually, all British men metamorphosize into Neil Gaimnan. It is an inevitablity.
Robin Williams brought so much joy through his own personal inward pain. You bring a lot of joy, mate. Letting the pain go will keep you alive longer. And as a '75er myself, I would appreciate that.
Among comedians Robin Williams is famous for stealing other comics jokes, so how much joy did he really bring through the product of his pain?
@@WarriorOfGhengisKhan Lots.
@@isajmody2344 If you're courting the people he paid off then I agree.
@@WarriorOfGhengisKhan It seems you're pretty angry about a dead guy. Maybe it's time to let him go.
@@isajmody2344 I really like his acting, I just don't believe the whole tortured genius cliché in regards to Robin, but if you do, cool.
I will be 70 in August, I started playing guitar again after many years. When I was young I played with friends and was gaining technique and had a knack for writing lyrics but I was never satisfied with the outcome even though I received many compliments. Eventually, I just said f&&k it and went to work bought a house etc. etc. etc. I found myself single at the age of 68 and I loved it and decided it was time to start playing again. After realizing what had been missing, music theory and today all you need to learn is a keyboard away, with the internet and all. Yeah, I'm one of those who need to understand what I'm doing as much as I can. I feel at ease now with myself as I move ahead little by little. I've tried writing again but it is coming back slowly. Am I tormented? Yes and pissed that The end is in sight, reality, no I'm not sick, as a matter of fact, I'm in great shape, however, there comes a time when you become more aware of time. So do I believe in the tormented artist? Yes, but that can come from many things and one of those is the feeling that what you are doing should be better, or somewhere along the way you missed out by circumstances that will come to everyone, but, I will not whine and cry about it, no, always move forward. By the way Justin don't worry about lighting and such, we understand your doing your best in the situation.
I'm 70 next April. I was a musician (lead guitarist, song-writer) all my life until I stopped 25 years ago. Recently took it up again and am aware that time surely must be short now.
Like you, with the incredible access to info and teaching that the internet provides I have been learning a little musical theory and realise in retrospect how useful it would have been back in the band/studio days.
When I started, the sum total of "the recording process" was that the band came in and simply did a live performance and the studio recorded it - end of story, that was the Product and was pressed up and put out.
The technology available to me now is astonishing - this is what I needed forty years ago!
Ah well ..... I'm just trying to get an album made before my time does run out. :-)
As far as the tortured artiste thing goes........ Creativity is both a blessing and a curse.
If you have that type of mind then things trigger you. Suddenly you can hear music that does not exist yet in the real world and your compulsion is to bring it into being, a process which swoops and dives from the heights of ecstasy to the pit of utter despair.
Happy is something you just are - there isn't really much to say about it and when happy, we do not spend much time actually thinking about how happy we are.
Sadness is a different thing. It's a wider subject with much more scope and when sad we spend a lot more time brooding on it and analysing it.
The fundamentals of music itself are also somewhat slanted towards sadder moods.
Major sounds "happy" but is much more restricted because you can only really play in the Major, Lydian and Mixolydian modes (scales).
Minor on the other hand sounds sad, but in minor there is a lot more scope. There are a multitude of minor scales, the different flavours they produce are more powerful and nuanced and there is more freedom to mix-and-match and blend one into the other.
I’ve been looking forward to this one. It will be another Justin ‘n’ Jenny classic, no doubt.
One of the most deeply tormenting forms of the artist experience is hearing the same four Chili Peppers songs on the radio for 30 years.
And the same songs every Christmas…
And the same clever replies on RUclips. 😂😂
😂
If you listen to the radio your already a sadist. Embrace your torment.
Living the beige dream, huh?
I think creativity and torment go hand in hand to some degree. Not just songwriters - plenty of us in the gardening profession too!
You mentioned Van Gogh at the end of the podcast....he was ill most of his life, but when he was in deep despair, he was so overcome that he was unable to paint. During his more stable times emotionally, this is when he had the ability to create the works we still get to enjoy today. I truly feel that if someone is constantly in a state of full despair, they don't have the attention to create properly. I've known people like this, and they are dead now (thus they cannot create, right?). Balance is best!!! AND you know you can rewire your brain with exercises so that it is not always anxious, right? That's my two cents worth
Really thought provoking. Not just the shirt...the episode.
Between the tear, the floral wallpaper pattern and how it clashes with the tattoos, I barely heard a word he was saying! 😅 😂😂😂
@@NinStardust I realise I am in fact turning into my mother, when I see damaged clothing and immediately want to almost forcibly fix it. It's very distracting! 😂
Sure is it torn? Remember that he also showed us one shirt with a pair of ventilation flaps to let his armpits breathe 🤣🤣🤣 Cheers buddies!😊
@@Rocksarum it's probably fashion beyond the understanding of us troglodytes 😆
The pain, longing and despair in "Deck Chair" is tangible
Much love to you Mr. Hawkins
Your channel is going to blow up dude. We all need this type of stuff. ✌️🇺🇸🇬🇧🇺🇦
New viewer did not know about your channel Justin,so happy I found it. You have an amazing voice love you x
“Is it a ‘Battle’ or a ‘Dance’?”
I was really hoping for a “Dance Battle” at the end. Missed opportunity there…
I do think it could help but I think Justin is Brilliant because he’s Brilliant, no matter what the case may be. I would love to give both of you hugs, I can SO relate.🥰
I just found your channel the other day. I scrolled past but the name sounded familiar and when I placed why, I had to go back and watch the video. I love hearing you talk about your art and experience. Your fame came right as I was learning guitar and the raw power of the guitars in The Darkness inspired me, and for 20 years your songs have been stuck in my head. Thank you for the inspiration and great music!
As far as I can tell both Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen seem to have had long periods of relative happiness and stability. And they produced some of the most soul searching music I know of.
Fascinating discourse. Bravo both of you ❤
Your such a light for alot of us. I thank you for this. I hate to see you discribe yourself as such or put yourself in tormented box but unfortunately I completely understand.
Agreed.
All happy, and the music comes off as a bit niave after a while. All torment, and the music comes out all dark and depressing after a while. It appears Both are necessary to create masterpieces. An artist must know the dark and the light, to paint with all the colors and depth needed.
That's fact!!!
You should not defend the lighting, you are in The Darkness…
I see what you did there. (Despite the fact that it's dark.)
Hahaha
😎I am wearing sunglasses.
Art is pain transformed. You don't need to be permanently tortured, life as it happens is tough enough
Art involves every emotion
Fuck me you weren’t kidding about the lighting 😂
No! I wasn't!
LMAOO
@@JustinHawkinsRidesAgain Much love Mr. Hawkins. I hope this was taken in jest as intended.
36:56 Wow! Balls to the wall is also a very catchy song for me!😄 I could listen to it in loop 🔁
Indeed...it's a f***ing anthem!🤘 I love it! ❤
Best face melting riff ever. It actually scares other riffs.
I had forgotten what a pain in the ass feelings were, and how well I had avoided them, until quite recently. I re-connected with my first boyfriend. Our relationship ended on a complicated note. Not badly, just oddly. I thought my feelings(from 45 years ago, ffs.) had been resolved. I walked around the first month of our re-acquaintance feeling like someone had knocked the air out of me. It took me a good four months to come back to equilibrium, or as I like to call it: Re-burying those feelings so deeply the sun never shines on them again.
Are you still able to find joy?
As long I can can see the shirt Justin we are doing well. I imagine that everywhere you roam, grocery store picking up some radishes, you are standing there being exquisitely lit. You carry it with you. And your song writing comes from both the tears falling on said radishes, and a sense of humor to turn it into something that relates to people and our shared experiences. Keep up the good work cousin. Cheers 🤘
4:27 - I watched Get Back, and Paul did not come off as godlike, he came off as a domineering personality that rubbed even his friends sometimes the wrong way. He had good reasons to be rushed and irritable, but he was abrasive, and if I were George I would have walked out too. George was bending over backwards to be accommodating at first, and it was never good enough, so he got angry, perhaps a bit more than was called for, but I get it. Get Back reveals all 4 as Real people making really memorable songs, that's what makes it so amazing, it humanizes all of them, and nobody got out of it looking like the angel or the devil, they're just people in the end, which is awesome!
Songs that resonate with people and make them emote in whatever way are meaningful and memorable. Often songs can be attached to a memory of a place/person that can make you smile or cry. If music doesn’t make you emote in some way the music can’t be any good in the first place .
Layla.
@@Joe-mz6dc Everyone usually remembers it for the infamous guitar riff and raw emotion from Clapton, but I absolutely love the piano outro to that song it’s masterful ❤️.
I'm so glad you mentioned Speed of the Night - for me it's nostalgic (late teenage angst, love and longing, Top Gun, The lost Boys, hanging out with cooler, older slightly goth mates of my brother, dry ice....) Probably a totally different interpretation from yours but it hits me in the gut every time. Wether you as an artist set out to portray that or not it's an incredibly powerful gift. I wish you wouldn't criticise your "screeching" listening back to all you back catalogue but I have to admit to another solar plexus punch from Forbidden Love. Maybe not my favourite but ah, the vocals....
It’s Justin Fucking Hawkins Rides Againnnnnnn!!! 🎶🎶🎶
These long videos are great!
The introductory metaphorical analysis is compelling. I look forward to it !!!
Agreed! 😁
50:32 "I've seen people enjoy themselves" 😂 I laughed out loud at this! I just loved this conversation, I've spent most of my life wondering how other people deal with their anxieties and whether some people really do just have no interior life whatsoever, and whether that brings contentment... Therapy did eventually help me gain some emotional maturity to observe my fear and sadness and "dance" with it sometimes - work in progress.
The question of whether you have to be in the throws of an emotion to successfully convey it is so interesting. Are my favorite songs just a bucket of emotion that resonates with me? Some are also beautifully crafted stories that I can't help but be moved by - it doesn't have to be so raw. I think you're both right.
I watch that Elizabeth Gilbert lecture at least twice a year. Please don't stop making these Monday podcasts!
I don’t think you have to be a tortured soul to write good music or be creative in any way. You just have to be in touch with your emotions and create experiences and interactions with people. Life is torturous enough without inflicting additional pain and suffering on yourself. And brooding self-pity is nowhere near as sexy as certain vampire movies make it out to be. You’ll find plenty of emotions to draw inspiration from simply by living and the most powerful experiences are often thrown upon us out of the blue. You just have to recognise them when they happen. Life is short and frequently painful, so take happiness wherever you can find it. Believe me, that can be incredibly inspiring too. 💖
Very true, great art involves every emotion in differing values from project to project.
I don't think it's about pain or happpinest, it's about deep honest emotion either way. A passionate feeling or experience that you truly believe.
I’m not sure they need to be tortured as in the traditional sense of always being in a state of painful anguish. I think they’re tortured in a way in which they’re somewhat constantly overcome with feelings that they need to express or else they’ll combust.
Love the honesty and openness amidst all the darkness. Sadness is almost a trademark in great songs, my two cents. And the keys really make the artist/song/band. I love singing on top of Cs and Bs, As, and Es. Minor, major... Nick Cave adds violence to the picture, literally. Brilliant artist/writer/singer. Having Jenny as a producer is an understatement because she's so brilliant and adds so much to the whole 'prrroducion' as you single-handedly put it, Justin. It's been a fun ride. Thanks again, and again. BTW: you should try surfing (got the 'physique'). If I could, I'd go every day. Tried when a kid, still on my bucket list. Will do.
It’s about rising above. Expressing the emotion it can help one go beyond
20:41 have to agree, speed of the nite time is my favourite song from motorheart and I really really love so long too
Jenny May, oh my days. So lovely. Hair, accent, mannerisms, personality. I'm jealous Justin gets to sit and shoot the breeze with this beautiful soul every day.
The next episode i will write notes to remind the things i want to comment! 😅 I always forget them... To answer the question; If the best songs come from tortured artists or content artists. My favourite ones, i think come from sadness or darkness... But because of my personality i guess...anyway some of my favourite songwriters have writen beautiful songs in a happy period. There is a song from a Spanish singer and songwriter (his name is Joaquín Sabina) which calls Oiga Doctor (Listen to me Doctor), the song is bassicly about a songwriter who lives in the depression and he goes to the psichologist to feel better and after the treatment he becomes a happy person. It's an hilarious song in what he ask to the doctor to take him back the depression because he is not able to write anything since he is happy 😂
I found very interesting againnnn the topic, and very funny to know that you don't like to listen your own voice... But i understand you because i write things and i don't like to read myself... In fact if i do i probably remove it...
But we love your voice in the recording version and live... Heart Explodes is one of my favourites songs of you...
Great roles, you like "darkness" and Jenny like light... Brilliant... Love for you both ❤
I love Heart Explodes, too, SUCH a beautiful song. One of my favorites to sing along to.
There are many artists that suffer from manic depression, but don't seek treatment because it flattens the creative process sadly. This also leads them to abuse substances from being unstable.
You were right I did very much enjoy this topic. To add to my previous comment on the last video though there is a fine line between being tortured/depressed enough to write good music and descending into a place where you can't even be bothered to get out of bed. If the pain/sadness etc is put into the music it is no longer in my head. Even listening to 'sad' music (as my mum would call it) allows me to process the internal sadness. I often think that some of the angry bands like metallica start to wither as they lose things to be angry about. Hard to be angry when you have $50million sitting in the bank.
Man, Justin, your shirt SCREAMS 70’s. My first husband had a shirt like that back in the day. Interesting sartorial choice 😏😉
I hear you. You make my day every moment I see your face.
Love love brother ❤️
Great conversation. Thanks.
Thank you....totally relate...to more than I realised. ...can't find words right now,....diolch cariad.... love & light 💜🏴🌻
I ended my involvement with my band because being the front and known as the most miserable angry guy in a large city. It was killing me, went back to painting, stopped when I fell in love. Now my dads dead, I don't need anyone's approval. I don't crave any success, I do only what I want without a schedule for the ladder
Thanks! Everyone has painful things they can tap into if needed, but you can be happy despite all the pain. Actors will tap into a painful memory when they need to cry on queue. The pain is there if you need it, but you don't need to live in it. It does take some work, and it doesn't happen overnight, but it can be achieved. Besides, pain isn't the only thing needed to create great songs. Inspiration works as well. ;)
I’ve recently emerged from that sadness but there is the aspect of personal growth. Feeling necessary. As we age artists who integrate deepen and produce better stuff.
All of the happiest, most well adjusted 'normal' people I know are gardeners, but I live inland, so surfing is out. The absolutely happiest man I ever met was my great uncle, who was struck by lightning, whilst gardening, twice!...so er, maybe that's a winning combination for good mental health?
I'm a gardener (work and hobby). I hate to say it, but I think a lot of us gardeners also suffer from 'tortured creative' syndrome (if you're in the UK, think Monty Don, Arthur Parkinson...).
@@sarahmills-tb5ey ah well, surfing it is then!
I guess your great uncle had a form of electroshock therapy? Or he was just really happy to still be alive!
@@chi_cedar14 both I think!
I'll hold my spade up next time there's a storm 😂
I think you write some of your best songs, the ones that really resonate, when you’re sad or have been through a bad time; ‘Heart Explodes’ is one of the best Darkness songs, and even though ‘Christmas time’ is ostensibly a festive tune it’s really a bittersweet break-up song in disguise and I love it for that.
Look at all the musicians in the 27 club! The best music comes out of turmoil, discontent and mind altering substances
Poignance,sorrow,regret,pathos etc etc..the songs that come from that,I connect to with the most. Not that I'm not a happy sorta bloke,but anyhoo.
Good sir, may I remind everyone of the superb song from the band "Therapy?" entitled "Happy People Have No Stories" x
I think an artist does best music beacuse is talented.....you are always so cool Justin...
Torment is a state of being; life is painful, with creativity being a way that pain is processed, made right, transformed and released but like all things, and time moving forward, the torment returns. Creativity is the act of taming the chaos. Art, the rare outcome of all this toil ….that’s only achieved when it touches another. That is much rarer. Art has a longevity as it touches on a truth through time.
Sure, happy folks can make a kind of art but I haven’t found it interesting and it never holds up over time. As for the dark, I have to live in it. My MS requires it sometimes as the headaches and Optic neuritis is blinding. The nature of my disease has stolen my tools, my ability to express so it’s had to evolve but creativity has never ceased. Aging has great gifts if you’ve been open to understanding and a forgiveness and bliss is touched upon.
I feel you. I have trigeminal neuralgia. AKA the suicide disease because it's so painful. It's brought me to some very dark places that I'm still trying to crawl out of.
@@chi_cedar14 ….you know oh too well KJAC. I had severe trigeminal pain from 2016 to 2022 and it started to ease off. They put me on Tysabri. Not sure it’s responsible for easing it up or it burnt out from what it was. It occasionally flares up but there was a slow end to the seemingly endless; too slow. I thought it was shingles….nope. It was another MS symptom in a long line that I never put together. I wasn’t a neurologist ….I had no idea. I never knew. I ended up having a bunch of brain stem lesions which I just learned correlate with that location. Ice, anitflam cream-voltaren(?). Softens the pain away for moments but it is horrific unrelenting pain with nothing that touches it. And then the headaches. Sometimes it’s just finding three notes and a melody to get through to the next moment. I wish the best for you. That’s sometimes just a personal version of creativity that had a good feedback. A very personal version of art I suppose. Definitely tormented.
As soon as they started talking about an artist who would take their work seriously, sit down and write, I instantly thought about Nick Cave and it was quite fun that Justin went to Nick Cave also. He has that aura about him. An artist creating art.
I think there are some tortured artists who push the boundaries in ways that contented artists cannot. I also think that you can write a good song without torture. The question that I have is, which came first the torture or the artist. Do tortured artist create the environment of torture in order to create art, or do they become artists to deal with the torture.
It’s the trope of tropes. Of course you can write without being miserable. Because songwriters are story tellers. They have imagination and can put themselves in various situations and feelings. And then relate that to you. If they are any good,of course.
At around 28 min you are discussing the ulimate tortured artist, would say jackson c frank is up there, that was one tortured soul. Thanks for the nice discussion, love you Justin and ofc Jenny ❤
39:05 Funnily enough, "Good vibrations" by The Beach Boys is classified by neuroscientists as the happiest song of all times🤙🏄♂️🏄♀️🏄😄
(other studies show it's "Don't stop me now" by Queen❤)
This podcast has triggered my will to research more about many aspects related with music and psychology! It's so fascinating😍
Loving these deep, philosophical discussions & mention of the Heroes Journey 🙌🏻
Justin- do you need someone to sew up that hole in your shirt for you?🧵 Or are you ok with letting your shirt stay tortured 😅
I keep on wanting him to get someone's mother to do just that! Or buy a new shirts! He has a another one he did that to also I think.
I agree, I want to take needle & thread and repair it, but I think given the material, it would fray, ugh. Yes he has a jumper with left shoulder hole, probably couldn't get it off the hanger fast enough and it tore. I think he likes tortured clothing, like torn, very fitted or unbuttoned to the navel!
I am also a seamstress & trained costumier, & would happily fix it up if we were on the same continent (just sayin’😅) 🤣 (edit: but not in a creepy way🤣)
He's waiting for Thursday. He's got needlework on Thursday.
😂 brilliant!
You're feeling all the same feelings everyone else feels, it's just that you know how to play an instrument and you might have a talent for putting it into words that fit into a song.
I didn't listen to the whole thing but you should do one of these things about what kind of person just so happens to be the kind of person who can write songs, what sets them apart?
I find it way easier to write lyrics when I'm upset, or about when I was upset, than I do when I'm happy. I also tend to like songs and bands that put out more tortured content. Writing while not bothered about anything is only really possible if I have an epiphany I guess, like I think of a new way of seeing something and I have to express it, but outside of that, when I'm happy, I barely write at all.
Rivulets of pain? I love it Justin Hawkins! Don’t worry it will be over before you know it!
If you're tormented inside, you should go outside.
settle down there jesus lol
Exactly. Perhaps what's missing is sufficient vitamin D 😆
Only Justin Hawkins has the charisma to get away with starting a video pulling eye goop out and flicking it across the room.
i agree, i don't like to listen to my own music, the songs doesn't even sound the way we're playing it live nowadays, and it's because of that you just said, the songs werent fully matured and developed at the time we recorded them, it's frustrating.
I only ever write when I’m down, desolate or hurting but on the other hand the guitar has always been my saviour, all i need to do is pick it ap and let my fingers do the walking and the talking.
I need a Jenny in my life, she is Awesome.
Jenny is absolutely ace ❤
She is, but you're too young to be having 'those' thoughts. Naughty boy, wicked boy, in your bed!
@@byronfelson-sb2cy Ha I'm suitably scolded. However, my thoughts are pure
Torment can indeed lead to wonderful art. But so can the happy one
I think most people who are content all the time tend to not be creative types and dare I say might even be dull. I think you have to want to express something within you in order to be creative. that desire is what causes the creative drive to come out.
Todd Rundgren titled an album "The Ever Popular Tortured Artist Effect". It was a throw away LP to satisfy a contractual obligation with his label but contained his stadium anthem "Bang the Drum" which came to him in a dream.
Maybe it is a case of having a lot of experience in life, which builds a better foundation from which to create something worthwhile, not necessarily torment in itself. However, it's hard to have experience without it including sad and dark things.
I love Collin Hay. After being on top of the music world with Men At Work, he lost it all and fell into the usual trouble with drugs and alcohol. The journey back from rock-bottom helped him to write some beautiful songs. Add in the deaths of first his father, then his mother, as well as the pain of lost love, and he had a deep well of emotion from which to draw inspiration for years. More recently he has started to enjoy a bit of commercial success again. He has fallen in love and gotten married. By all accounts, he is very happy. At the same time (and it feels uncomfortable to admit this) his music seems to have lost the depth and meaning it once had. If feels a bit more shallow, and certainly less personal. Could it be that the pain of heartbreak and loss was the muse he once used but then lost as his life turned bright again?
Brian Eno basically says it comes from the community, the people you mix with, your influences etc., not just the individual. I think this holds true in the early New York community for Bob Dylan and the way his lyrics change as he moves about. The songwriter needs both empathy and writing skill to 'channel' the community though and this isn't the same for everybody. I hear both 'angsty' and 'smug' songs and I think that also depends on both lifestyles and communities.
Andy Summers mentioned something similar in an interview many years ago. He said one can only become the best musician and artist possible if they also live a full life outside of music. It was a fascinating interview and I hope to find it again one day. I forget his exact wording and I'm not doing it justice, but the bottom line is he said in order to become the best artist/musician you can be, you have to tap into your own life experiences and channel that into your music. Your music is a sonic reflection of your personal life and experiences. 😀
Happy news! Paul McCartney has just announced that AI is being used to finish the final Beatles song, likely ‘Now And Then’, for release later this year.
There's a nice Kubrik-like quality. Desaturated, very bright unnatural light on her side. Anyway, I just tend to write songs about whatever happened to me or I observed that day. I love lyrics about dark subjects put to inappropriately catchy, upbeat melodies and rhythms.
I love the lighting, very Caravaggio.
Travis Meeks always struck me as a tormented artist.
Totally agree with you on this. If drugs hadn’t ruined his life, he would’ve done many more great things with his music.
You can certainly write a poem from the point of revelation…. Growing understanding. Enlightenment, boing.
Understanding and lessons from pain are the most important resource for the psychology of mankind. Suffering artists are necessary to shine a light to either show people that they are not alone or transform pain into wisdom to live by. Suffering in a world without art is useless, suffering with art makes mankind transcend in emotional intelligence. We grow from our troubles but only if we can self reflect, and that is art.
The campfire scene. The truth is, Justin, you can play this acoustic guitar so much more professionally and effectively, you can use your voice in a much more beautiful, expressive and emotional way than any other person and melt every present woman's and man's heart, produce joy, fire or tears on a whim.
So you should either take part and demonstrate them how it's really done or walk past with a smile on your lips knowing that you can do it so much better!
That's all.
So, that's why I'll never be happy... I have a phobia of the ocean. Everything about it scares the shit out of me. I'd never go near a surfboard!
During a severe nervous breakdown I wrote an entire book of poetry in 6 weeks. I did not sleep much and was mostly alone. The poems that I didn't think were good I ditched but I still like some of the one's that were published. I didn't eat much, went out rarely and poetry just poured out of me. That was 10 years ago and I've written very few poems since. I don't think contentment produces the best art.
Funny that you mentioned Speed of the Nite Time. It is my favourite The Darkness song und one of my all-time evergreens
I am the warrior poet. After a fashion. Soul of a poet heart of a warrior
Addition to my last comment: there has been some incredible music written from a place of joy and happiness. The white album by The Beatles has several examples of this.
Jenny is dressed for the office here while Justin is dressed for the bar. Interesting discussion anyways.
😂😂😂😂 i loved this!
I don’t know Justin. When I was a teenager I wrote a lot of very dark poetry. I guess every teenager is a tormented soul maybe. As I got older I guess sh$t got real so now I’m more hesitant to write really dark stuff. I still like to regardless of my emotional state. I think it’s more difficult to write something truly happy.😊
Excited to see the Darkness here in Denver
I think you can allow yourself to be happy but I have to admit the torture helps with great art. I have to say as well... If the theme song has become torturous to go through it's time for a new one or none at all! You're under no obligation!
Hope to see you on the ice soon Justin 🤘🤘🤘
I think that there are a lot of tortured people in the world, in one way or the other. And so in any social grouping of people, including artists, some amount of those will be tortured ones. I don’t think you have to be tortured to be great, but maybe if you’re tortured you have a little extra something. On the other hand, some will have the opposite - a little extra something that makes art difficult to make. We all have our crosses to bear, so many different kinds of em.
Hmmmm. Perhaps it is not a question of whether or not you NEED to be tortured to make good music, but whether or not you can TURN your inevitable torture into a good thing, and even use it as a form of therapy. Writing the music itself gets things out that you wouldn't otherwise have been able to articulate, the music adds a level of language that words alone cannot express, and sometimes it is those complex unknown feelings that NEED to be expressed before we move on with our lives. Perhaps, too, the torture does not need to remain a constant, but a stop on our paths, long since passed. Like was stated in the video, one of Justin's most successful songs was written at a time when he was feeling pretty alright, after he'd gotten through the darkness. Maybe it is ok to revel in the torture, while you're there, but also okay to let yourself step out into the light, after your stay there is done.
Nicely put.
As an hardcore punk musician .my best songs have come the most unimaginable pain. Even my normal are dark.
Jenny is so smart, funny & cute!
I can imagine writing "Mama, just killed a man..." and jumping up and down with happiness, thinking 'Yes, a great first line!'.
I love these podcasts.