Ike being a regular Joe in Smash perfectly fits his backstory. I like how his kit isn't flashy, just a very straightforward dude swing his blade around like a baseball bat.
Yep that's why I ply him, I tend to like simple but strong characters in games, Garen is my main in league a legends and he's just a durable guy with a big sword that can take a beating and dish it out but doesn't do anything special.
@@elitefourfay4712h, Ike was very good overall in terms of stats and access to Aether and 1-2 range, but being footlocked and swordlocked make him a pain to use for speedruns and LTCs. Also remember when the first 5 pages of the Brawl Vault all had Cloud PSAs for Ike? Then he became his own character and even better anyway lmao
One of the easiest reasons to pick up Ike in the early days was because Ike was a simple, fundies sword character. He taught you how to cleanly play the game, and the most important aspects of the game, like neutral and ledge trapping which the current meta of today, hence why there’s not a lot of edge guarding characters dominating the scene while characters with bad recoveries or decent enough have good ledge trapping, being Cloud, Byleth, Steve, Roy, ROB, Fox Ike is essentially one of those characters, and because the game hadn’t been fully developed Ike got away with a lot of things, especially since people didn’t parry often lime they do today.
Byleth, Steve and Rob all having amazing recoveries, byleth being probably the best tether and rob being so effective he can stall for ages if need be. Also Joker, Pika, Rob, Palu, GnW, Diddy And Pac man are fucking good dude, all somewhat popular at low to mid level, all definitely close to your top 20 if you're worth your weight in salt and granted, great ledge trappers as well(with an exception to palu if you're picky), are all amazing Edgeguarders. I do not understand what you are trying to say here and I definitely don't understand what Ike has to do with any of these characters, Also what does recovery have to do with ledgetrapping? seems as though the peak of advantage state(for most characters) shouldn't really be affected by their recovery(an aspect of disadvantage) other than maybe a huge blunder in positioning, leading to the disadvantaged player taking the upper hand. Ike in my opinion is Slow. Slow on the ground, slow in the air, slow startup on all his moves, seems as though at the ledge, where he forces the opponent to make a move in to him, would naturally be the best position to make the character work. but I also haven't watched the video 😕
@@pooper1614e's saying that Ike is a grounded character. Unlike your claim of being literally grounded I was going to make the case that showing players what's possible is a cardinal error when you are a sword character that doesn't do any sword stuff particularly well Wrong game.Wrong engine. Poor approach to design philos. I only say that because we'll rounded characters at least have honest results. You're going to have a gameplan that nets you positive outcomes when approached correctly This being the case for a Mario type character whose games function that way. Mario wouldn't fall into a cliff, it's you as the player that doesn't know how to time it better. The princess needs saving, so any mistake is on your part in not navigating the terrain This is not the case with Ike. He is all risk and no reward. All windup and no payoff. Anything that he can do well is outmatched by characters that probably require less effort to perform the simple tasks. By the time Ike achieves optimization in his stride Smash 7 is going to come out
I think they could've played into his "I use a 2 hand sword with just 1" to give him an identity. Any move where he uses one hand should have fast frames, less power. And 2 handed moves do good shield damage or even more power. Also, improve his F-smash. It has like the same power as Roy, but 10x worse frame data.
His Smash attacks are meant to have their giant hitbox compensate for their lack of speed, but the problem is that giant hitboxes are made redundant in a game full of kill confirms. Why swing big sword once when I get jab 5 sword twice, and if it hits once, it links into the kill?
@@faded9581 Yeah, I agree that was probably their intention... But Ganondorf and Pyra both have similar F-smashes. Both have more range, more kill power, and significantly better frame data. Now here's something depressing I just looked up: Ike's has 48 frames of end lag. I think that's the slowest in the game. Slower than Dedede, Bowser, and Hero. And it might be the only f-smash that is more than 80 total frames. 😂
@@xanaviii I actually agree with you. Ganon is both slow and stubby, so him having really good F Smashes makes sense, but just solo Pyra seems to utterly negate Ike as a character. Pyra may not have nair combos, but she doesn't need it as her superior aerial drift allow her to use her uair the same as Ike's nair, and she can use her aerial more freely because of her superior air speed. Hell, I cannot think of anything Ike does that Pyra doesn't do better. PR is superior to aether since it actually works oos and can be confirmed into rather than a hard callout, side b is a decent neutral option leading into setups, whereas Ike's quick draw autocancel is a one-time hat trick that will only give him stage control with no mixups or followups. Her tilts and dair are so much better than Ike's I need not explain. I suppose Ike's throws give him better positioning, but aside from that, he's utterly obsolete.
@@faded9581 yup, basically agree. Solo Pyra is kinda what Ike could've been. Anything Ike *might* even do slightly better than solo Pyra, has a caveat. Like, I think Aether can be situationally better, as PR doesn't kill nearly as early with good DI. And Aether is great for ledge guarding some recoveries. If only Aether had a little more armor or was a little faster... Quick draw is too slow despite it's name, and only helps mix up recovery if you're hit high. Otherwise just as exploitable as Pyra, if not more so. I'm still an Ike main, but if I ever did try to compete seriously, I could never justify playing him over Aegis.
@doopliss 4v1 with auto handicapped turned on, the 3 kids and my gf against me. Usually ends up evening out around 100% damage start for me. It's good times. 😂👍
I think you wrapped up his issues perfectly. I've been an Ike main since Brawl when I was 8 years old and it's weird having so many different swordfighters with strictly better overall kits. Still love him though and I will always like Ike
@@benjaminjameskreger I don't think they can, it has much smaller range and isn't as safe either. That combined with worse mobility stats makes it way less spammable
Great video. I'll main Ike because he's my favorite, but I'm still mad Sakurai said they originally thought giving a sword fighter a projectile would be too overpowered, and then years later gave Cloud one.
@@Sh1ranu1 Nothing's stopping them just changing Ike's moves though. Moving Eruption over to Down-B would give him room for a sword beam on neutral. He doesn't need Counter.
I think people downplay the nerfs he got in patch 8.0.0.They gutted his greatest strength, the consistent Nair kill confirms, in exchange for buffs on committal moves like dash-attack and Aether. Also, Aether doesn't even work sometimes.
Yeah a lot of people said it wasnt a nerf, just a change, but was absolutely a nerf lol. Way worse combo and kill confirms, even if he has more options for kills, they're worse.
I appreciate other moves being able to kill and all that but to remove an amazing tool to make others better despite still not being great is just poor design
I still don't get why he doesn't have a ranged attack in Smash , in Path of Radiance/Radiant Dawn his personal weapon Ragnal can fire Air Slashes plus Ike can also use axes in RD , which is THE FE weapon known for good 1-2 ranged weapons
I'm PsyKoD, currently the best Ike in the US and ranked #2 in Ohio, recently placing 9th at the Big House 10 and I have wins on players like IcyMist, BassMage, Blacktwinz, and Doorstop. I think the main reason that Ike has fallen out of popularity is the fact that his specs are insane. Take a character like Cloud, he's at around 90-95% at everything he does. Good speed, good out of shield, good disadvantage, good advantage. Ike is specced out a bit more lopsidedly, with up to 150% in some categories, but 40-50% in others, and those bad spots can be exploited very easily. Vs characters like Roy or Fox, there are situations that Ike can be put in where the option needed to make it out positive simply do not exist. He struggles immensely vs rushdown due to no oos faster than frame 10 and one of the worst disadvantage states in the game, arguably worse than the likes of DK and Ganondorf. This really kills Ike in the US, because NA's meta is far more focused on rushdown. I think part of Yez's recent success in Japan is the fact that the Japanese meta is so much less reliant on mashy rushdown and moreso on patient neutral play, which Ike EXCELS at. However, in matchups like Luigi, Kazuya, Steve, Ness, etc, where they're really stubby and snow but the caviat is that you have to fight their amazing boxing tools, Ike nearly invalidates them because Ike can entirely skip interacting with those tools. Ike is really different from every other sword, but the closest comparison is Cloud. Cloud's bair is similar to Ike's nair in that it's big and defines his neutral but the difference between the two is that Ike's nair is SO big that the amount of leniency you have vs characters like Kazuya and Steve makes it a much easier time to outspace them compared to with Cloud, who on paper would win harder but who's spacing is less lenient to the point where it's extremely unreasonable to expect Cloud to space it correctly every time. Ike's absolutely phenominal in matchups where he can play, but in matchups where he's suffocated and can't get his stuff going (think extremely fast characters with amazing advantage states and bypass neutral by mashing on Ike, where he can't do anything), he's miserable to play. Roy singlehandedly makes a run at a major with Ike insane, because you're guaranteed to run into one and it's genuinely a -3 matchup, albeit Ike's only -3. Oh, and as a sidenote: Ike was designed as a "slow, strong sword" because Sakurai already had a blueprint for that archetype and decided it fit Ike for some godforesaken reason even tho he's insanely fast in PoR and RD. And in Brawl, Ike was actually not as bad as people think. He was one of those characters who actually had a really good matchups spread if you didn't include MK, but folded to MK so hard that he was completely unplayable. In a timeline where MK wasn't included, Ike would genuinely have been p good in Brawl.
I actually decided to pick up Ike literally a day before this video came out lol. Do you think you could give me tips or do you have a discord for Ike’s I could join? I think he’d make a great secondary as far as matchup spread since my main is fox
@@kurokaien18 my training partner is a fox main so ive though about ike in the context of fox a lot and genuinely i think ike is one of the best secondaries for fox in the game. shoot me a message on twitter or ping me in the ike discord and ill be more than happy to answer any questions
I am a casual Ike main. I beat a lot of my buddies with him if I try hard. Around 11 million GSP online. Funny thing is a lot of people get caught by using a quick draw to the ledge and then countering their follow up ledge attack for a kill, I also can time his special explosion to edge guard well, its almost uncanny how I can perfectly time it so much.Prob not good enough for the competitive stage, but for everyone else not in the pro scene Ike is very viable so don't care about tierlist too much.
I always think about that one cutscene in Subspace Emissary where Ike is running side by side with Marth going fast as fuck and it makes me wonder what could have been...
Before Joker became a thing, one of my friends played Palu, while the other played Ike. Back then, we thought Ike and Shulk were SO FAST, all because we weren’t used to the speed of the game yet. Once we finally dialed in however, I think everyone understood that the speed of these guys is just a general speed increase from the prior entry and they’re actually relatively slow compared to the rest of the cast. I think it’s cool however, that these characters are still considered high or even top tiers. I feel like most underground characters finally got their chance in this game, such as G&W, R.O.B., Pac-Man, Wario, Pichu, and yes, the aforementioned Ike, Shulk, and Palutena. While not on the top anymore due to the increasing tides of competition with the sword category especially, seeing these mid tier snail’s pace swordies finally get some recognition, especially Ike with how long he’s been waiting, is cathartic for me. Idk, I love it when odd balls get their chance
I use to really love how Ike could cancel his quick draw into jab in brawl. I felt like I had so much control of the ground with that tool. If i remember correctly you kept a bit of the momentum after cancelling too so you had a travelling hitbox for a few frames and the jab was way less punishable than the quick draw's regular attack. It made Ike feel like a way faster character too.
Wait so the Prima guide was actually telling the truth? Cause I got into competitive Smash in Brawl and I never heard of QD canceling except in that Prima guide. Though if you mean P:M, he can jump out of it so you could wavedash out of it. And then in one build pf Brawl- you could act out of QD at the end of the move, which made for hilarious set ups like QD > counter > fully charged Eruption.
@@JAMllostthegame ya sorry i think i misinformed you i wasnt using the terminology properly. I think what im talking about is the build you mentioned at the end. Like the recovery on the move was super short if you didnt make it close enough for the attack to come out so youd just tap it for a second for the burst of forward momentum and jab and im sure there was much crazier stuff like you mentioned
This felt like such a good explanation, I picked up Ike and have been enjoying him recently, and I was playing Ganon before. When people know how to play against Ike, it feels impossible to approach, since a single swing and a miss usually leads to me being punished, at times even if I space it correctly. Especially against rush down characters, I have an easier time punishing or getting out with Ganon, since even Ganon makes most of Ikes moves feel slow.
What's weird to me is that by all means Ike should have a projectile, in his own games one of Ragnell's big strengths as a weapon is that it can fire sword beams. If Cloud, a character with generally better frame data, is allowed to have sword beams I don't see why Ike can't.
Ike doesn't have a projectile, this despite the fact that the Ragnell is a sword capable of indirect combat, and the projectile would be faster that Cloud's Sword Beam. It's probably not what he needs, but he technically has access to it and it baffles me that they didn't include that after Brawl even though they put a lot more effort in the newcomers from Fire Emblem.
8:00 Funny thing is that Mythra made Pyra as a kinder, weaker alter ego because she hated herself for being so powerful. Now that character trait followed over into Smash
They are also used similarly because you basically spam just mythra and use pyra just to set up special combos and chain attacks to finish off the enemy.
Something that also hurt Ike, that I think also hurt Ganondorf down-the-line, is that players eventually discovered that his plethora of buffs in the transition to Ultimate did come with some costs. 1) Dash speed got barely an increase in the transition to Ultimate, making MUCH slower relative to the rest of the cast going into Ultimate. 2) Up tilt has smaller hitboxes and less damage without compensation on knockback. The latter thing contributes to the late hits newfound combo potential, but it does hurt its KO power overall. 3) Forward air got hit hard. It no longer autocancels in a short hop, which is a crucial tool for Ike in the previous games. Granted he didn't have Ultimate nair in the previous games, but it was still a very good tool to have. Its KO power is also noticeably weaker. As a matter of fact, it was pathetically weak when Ultimate first came out. Patch 8.0.0 helped compensate for this, but it is still weaker than in the previous games. 4) Grab game is hurt overall thanks to the universal nerfs to grabs, as well as up and down throws having their combo potentials nerfed despite Ike's faster jumpsquat. Up throw in particular lost pretty much all of its combo potential. Funnily enough, Ike's meta did actually get rejuvenated when the 8.0 changes hit, as opinion of the character was dropping off pretty hard at that time only for it to increase after the 8.0.0 changes. Unfortunately, opinion on the character dropped off further down the line. Sadly, Ike is one of those characters that is kinda stuck in mid tier purgatory for pretty much his entire existence (outside of early Ultimate). R.O.B. was also this case until Ultimate came out.
Ike was my main in Brawl so I always loved him. He was just so f-ing strong. I really only struggled with fast high finesse characters like Diddy Kong, Snake, and Game and Watch. A shame to see such low representation at competitive play in the new game. Hope I get to play Ultimate one day and try him out.
If they wanted Ike to stay the “Slow but Strong” type then next Smash game give him Urvan and let him be the first real FE character with an Axe (yes Byleth technically counts but I want more) It would really be cool to have more representation of the other weapon types besides Swords. Robin and Byleth were a great steps but if Ike is going to be the hulking strongman at least let him use his axes too.
1:18 There are actually some similarities between Ike and Roy, particularly if you look at the things that differentiated Roy and Marth in Melee. Other than the inverted tipper, Roy was intended to be more powerful with a stronger neutral-B and a more powerful counter, and both are retained in Ike. Of course, they took Roy in a different direction when he was brought back with his netural-B instead remaining as a bit of an outlier in his design.
He was my main for around a year and I greatly enjoyed him but the biggest thing that made me drop him was the little options he had. His neutral is practically just nair and he just got too repetitive for me. I still love him. I return to play him from time to time because his aether is always fun.
I'm surprised you didn't bring up PsyKoD at all when talking about Ike mains. He got 9th at Big House this year and did it beating Frostbyte who plays Ike's worst matchup Roy. Very strong player who you should look into!
@@classarank7youtubeherokeyb63 Yeah, but the tipper barely does more damage than Lucina. You get almost all the damage as Marth, but you don't have to be as accurate. Not to mention Smash has way more spacers than Marth. Pyra/Mythra, Roy, Cloud, Sephiroth.
Ike should’ve had a projectile on his neutral special similar to clouds. His up special should also throw his sword diagonally and then have him come straight down kinda like a reverse incineroar up special. Both would help him tons and make his character more true to his source games.
Please do a Duck Hunt episode! I absolutely love the character and the amount of tech he has, but given how hard you have to work for your stocks, he’s a prime candidate for this series. He CAN produce amazing results in the right hands, but you have to work around some pretty major flaws to get those results. (And if you do make the episode, please talk about some can tech like reversal moves and anchor can!)
Hehehe... He "can." I see what you did there. But, yes! I want to see a Duck Hunt Episode! I think I only know 4 Duck Hunt mains that play competitively.
Ike is a strong secondary for me. I wish his nair confirmed at a little higher percents, his side b wouldn’t put him in free fall, he had a slightly better smash attack (maybe less power but comes out fast for f smash or up smash, and please please let him run just slightly faster.
I've been maining Ike since brawl. Lorewise one of things that always bugged me was Ike is special in his games in that his signature weapon Ragnell can attack from range, so I was upset when cloud got a ranged move and Ike didn't. I think they could fix his laggy counter as a potential balance. But otherwise your analysis nailed it, everything that Ike does someone else can do it too, and often times better. His gimmicks are all in his special moves but they all have such a high price tag to use them to where they aren't exploitable like the rest of the cast and the payoff for landing them correctly sometimes isn't worth it, save may eruption, but even still are you using eruption to ledge trap EVERY time or against EVERY matchup? So idk, it makes me excited for smash 6 cause it seems like he has no where to go but up.
I think Ike should have been more slow and strong. Making him more like a heavy but with crazy range would have been more fun and unique while still keeping him simple.
I've always played Zelda and over the years my brother decided to pick up Ike as a counter, which worked well most of the time but his gap closing abilities in ultimate really evened the playing field, the amount of times I've teleported directly into an up B, I've lost count lol
Unfortunately Ike is just a worse version of several characters. There is really no excuse to play him when you can play: Ike with Monado arts (Shulk) Ike but can switch to Mythra (Aegis) Ike but versatile and well rounded (Cloud) Ike but min-maxed (Sephiroth) Ike with more precision and more reward (Byleth) Ike but faster (Lucina) Ike if he did a fusion dance with Marth and a dragon, and he came out solidly high tier (Corrin)
I'm aware how offhand it was but as a comp player I feel the need to say the pokemon comparison is actually quite the same as Smash. The reason Speed is good is because you can deny your opponent their turn at all, they are not guaranteed it unless they survive, rather than being guaranteed it if they do. In this case Defense, the ability to be more likely to get a turn, would be comparable to having options to relieve pressure mentioned later in the video. If I were then asked to determine the main difference of speed in Smash Bros, it would have to be in how its tied to controlling the battlefield through positioning. (In pokemon the equivalent would be setting field conditions and having the pokemon you want on both side of the field)
Basically Ike is a the smash equivalent to Ramphardos; high attack, low defense, low speed. Is one of the worst competitive mons period because of the lack of opportunities it has to attack, but is quite good at punishing bad players; again, just like Ike.
One of the reasons I stopped was all the way back in Smash 4. his Side B was nerfed hard and could nolonger be held down indefinitely. As a result, he had a harder time getting back on stage.
Fellow Brawl Ike main LET'S GOOOOOOO I think you said it best that everything Ike can do, someone else can do better. It kinda feels like he suffers from being too much in the middle, with nothing outstanding enough for him to make use of considering his intended design. His linearity also adds to this. Also it feels like all the extra strength he has is useless and it doesn't feel like he can kill that much earlier compared to others in the cast. And even going into his KO moves you realize that two of them are great spacing and combo tools so they end up being stale (fair, bair), one is decent but his poor air mobility doesn't make it cover as much space as it should (up air), and one is a gimmick as an out of shield option, bait with super armor, or a suicide move (Aether). I will say that dash attack is pretty funny because it can be easily telegraphed, but is deceptively fast and wide when unsuspected. Bonus points to jab3 getting KO power for no reason though lol. And when it comes to rage, he can't make use of it as much as the actual heavies because he's not actually a heavy and has an exploitable recovery. Rage being weaker doesn't help (I miss KOing with uptilt lol). Overall I feel like he is very well-designed, especially after his rework, but the better half of the cast feels too overtuned for him to keep up. Also I might be biased because imo P:M Ike was the best version of Ike overall. At least to me he felt well-balanced compared to the rest of the cast without compromising his design (except maybe walljump QD). Idk about current P+ though since I stopped playing that.
"Why no one plays Link?" could be an interesting topic, I'm biased as hell but it'd be cool to see more people talk about him, he's an interesting and really cool character that deserves more love
@@nathanm5533 And frame data. Without being that strong or with that much range for a swordfighter. His normals are just bad outside of N-Air. The more I think about it the worse regular Link stands over the children counterparts.
From playing Ike, I think that a way to fix him would be to keep the property of eruption of charging to gain power, but keep the disjointed hotbox universal and reduce lag for the uncharged move. Something akin to Sephiroth's flare, safer but less power uncharged.
Ike was easily way better in the earlier stages of Ultimate but after a while people started to find out how predictable his neutral game and recovery is and how much of a pain dealing with characters with projectiles or characters with a fast paced natural game can be which was mostly why a lot of people just stopped playing him and went for the other sword characters how don't struggle as much or can keep up with said characters. Although I agree that ike can still be viable if they don't know the match up and what not but if they do then good luck.
Ike is still my favorite swordie and one of my favorite characters in ssbu today, but I don't play at a high level or anything lol. PoR and RD are two of my favorite games and he's just awesome. I do think they need to improve his combo ability and frame data more and leave a few meaty attacks that make him satisfying, but it's weird that he has the notoriety of being slow when he's....definitely not in his games. He also can attack from range with his sword, so it's weird to see him not have that either.
I am a HUGE Ike enjoyer, been maining him competitively since Brawl. But in this chapter I simply couldn't. He lost many things that made him appealing to me. For starters, streamlining his Uair, while making it better as a followup, also made it way less interesting and removed its niche as an airdodge coverer. That move was SO fun to use to cover airdodges, I think they should've expanded in that aspect instead of making it just another arching uair. His killpower is overall average with some high power moves, but you really can't sell him as a huge power swordman and justify him being so damn slow. I would either buff his speed a little or bump up some numbers in his dmg/KB. Another thing I hate is how damn stiff he looks. He used to have a damn cool backflip when performing a jump backward and besides confusing the opponent a little, it also had a useful hurtbox shift. Now he's like a wood piece whenever he jumps. Overall, I would give him back his signature moves (helicopter uair, violent Fair (like in Brawl), annoying 1-2 jab), and give him more power and better ground game so he has a niche no other swordie fills. Mixups from 1-2 jabs, good grab game, strong tilts (and making dtilt even more useful). I don't think he needs to have get-off-me tools, not every character needs a strong OoS option, especially if they are strong at zoning and/or have a good advantage state. Just make Ike strong when grounded and have good transitions from air to ground, making him a character that wants to use falling aerials and then slap you when you're both on the field instead of another juggling swordie that can't do any of his jobs better than any other sword wielder.
This video is inaccurate :/ I don't really normally comment on these vids be a use they are well researched and accurate, but this one is a bit yikes because it completely ignores Japan as a region. Ike is considered bottom tier in Japan with some pros even having him as low as Ganon, Doc, Plant, etc. i just double checked quickly: Proto has him in low tier, Hikaru in bottom tier, etc. It feels like this video was heavy biased with PoR being your fav Fire Emblem and where Ike used to be in the meta, and that's ok cause I'm guilty of doing stuff like that in my own content but it weakens this video compared to the others. It feels like the creative process here started with the assumption Ike is a respectable high tier and is trying to justify it, which still may be true, but is disingenuous to say about pros when half of top players don't feel that way at all. Still love the content, still gonna watch everything, still a ton of quality in the channel, but wanted to point it out not to be a jerk but because it's just simply inaccurate
If I had to guess that's because Ike is awful against defense, a very prominent style in Japan. Because his moves are slow he can't really shield pressure, which is a big problem. Ike is amazing at punishing approaches, which makes it better in the west, but is still a pure Pyra with less kill power, and pure Pyra is not very good due to being so slow and commital.
@@robmaclennan9421 Also, apparently his worst matchups are apparently rushdown swordfighters because you can't play the spacing game with them, most notably Roy, Mythra, Chrom and Meta Knight, two of them being everywhere and one of them being the reason he was mediocre in Brawl (Why did they allowed MK in Brawl..? Ohh yeah, social pressure because smash players can be morons at times). That's why he's low-mid tier at best, just like the other 2 installments.
Two things that, I think, factor into Ike's design, but not into professional community play: 1. Ike plays like how a casual would think Cloud should play. After Guts in Berserk, and Cloud in FF7 (the two major codifiers for gigaswordies in their respective media/genres), there was a glut of megaswords in anime (think Ichigo's initial Zangetsus in Bleach, or the Ravesword in Rave) and gaming (Dante's Rebellion and Nero's Red Queen in Devil May Cry), and with it, a glut of parodies/subversions. Namely that, with a sword that big (and, implicitly, heavy), it should take longer to swing, and hit harder when it does hit. I think Ike in Smash is/was an homage to that idea, until Cloud himself (playing like his own archetype) returned, and with him, Sephiroth (the masamune is pure rule of cool, sorry) and Pyra/Homura (to contrast with Mythra/Hikari) later. 2. Ike is the heavy archetype for swordies ...for casuals. In casual play, heavies can tank (and by extension stay alive) more due to not being the only focus of attack by an opponent/multiple opponents. A Ganon/Bowser can "Doryah!"/Dropkick three other characters if said characters are stuck in someone else's Little Mac/Falco jab combo, for example (which I use as an example because I did that exact thing as Bowser in a casual online free-for-all with friends. They were not happy), as opposed to having to look for punish opportunities in 1v1. Ike is that character (pre-Pyra) if you want that power in a swordie (like how K. Rool and Banjo Kazooie are zoners for heavies and jack-of-all-trades, respectively. IMO.) While it is antithetical to competitive play (due to randomness), I think there is merit in exploring how certain archetypes work in general competitive modes (as opposed to professional competitive modes) that aren't either 1v1 or 2v2 (like free-for-all, lap stages, stage hazards, and items). That way we can, as a community, come to understand why certain design choices are made (i.e. for casual gaming sessions vs competitive gaming matches), rather than bemoaning that our fav doesn't work in 1v1 (which is only part of the environment they were designed to work in).
Was gonna say the exact same thing as your first point. Ike is slower and stronger because his weapon, from a *design* viewpoint is slower and stronger, ignoring anime-rules. If someone told me Ike was Nintendo’s homage to Cloud, I’d believe it 100%. And as far as making Ike interesting, I dunno. Half the roster needs a move update (looking at you, breakdancing, tornado summoning, hedgehog). Personally, I’d like more than just the (boring) swordies to have a custom combo side B
1.- That explains why Maximilian Dood plays him despite not knowing/caring about Fire Emblem, his similarity to Guts, especially with his Black Armor alt. 2.- Ike was introduced in Brawl, the most casual smash entry ever. so it makes sense why he´s a very straightforward and beginner friendly swordie. 3.- I dont care much about competitive other than Riddles using Kazuya or Quik´s flashy Samus, so Im not going to have an opinion on that, but youre right about the last part (1v1 is only part of smash, not the entirety of it)
Ike to me still has some relevance as of recent with good 9th place finishes from Yez and Psykod. Along with ikes in japan picking up good wins on Asimo. He definitely has value as a counter pick character with solid strengths and only a few -2 match ups to invalidate him. I am excited to see how my fellow ike mains adapt and continue to improve.
Can you do "Why No One Plays Pit and Dark Pit"? I can already guess why most people don't play those characters, but I'd still like to see a video on them since I kind of main Pit.
Fun fact: I havent played in like a year, but when I played Ike side b has a property in which it doesnt have any end lag or reduced end lag if its done at a certain distance from the floor: a little less than the platforms on the omega stages, it can be useful to surprise your oponents once but dont expect it to work more than once
Cloud is absolutely not a fundies character. Oh my fucking god the only way he could say this is because he's a cloud main. The reason people play cloud (and not ike) is that cloud allows you to spam half of his moves without any risk. He is the opposite of fundamentals he plays the fucking game for you.
This is awesome and ironic. I saw the title before I saw the thumbnail and part of what I was going to say was Brawl Ike is my favorite variant. I liked how he looked like the average, slightly muscular young man yet hit like a runaway train. I didn't care for his later, bulkier appearances. Made him feel even slower than he actually was. Anyroad, Ike (ironically replacing Roy) was my preferred FE character in Brawl. I was never a fan of playstyles like Bowser and Ganondorf, though I did play them occasionally; there was something different about Ike. Maybe it was just a placebo, but for me, it was like Ike's movement was around average yet he hit incredibly hard. I was never as satisfied landing heavy blows with anyone until I played Ike. His fully charged forward Smash always felt great when it connected and don't get me started on his Brawl Final Smash...man. Such a fun character. Huh...unrelated, but I wonder if Ike influenced me later into liking KHBBS Terra (my favorite KH character). Interesting...
I used to play Ike a lot at the start of ultimate. He was very powerful and had some tricks, but ultimately his playstyle specifically doesn’t scale well. He has only one unique tech to him, landing cancelling QuickDraw, and he has one of the most linear recoveries in the game. Gonna compare Ike to three characters I picked up overtime and generally found more success with. Snake has comparable survivability and kill power, although he doesn’t usually kill on stage with one quick aerial like swordies do, but unlike Ike who has to bring his power to the opponent and deal with the consequences of that, Snake simply doesn’t have to worry about that. Vars will make a video on snake eventually, but he arguably is the character with the biggest control of the pace of the match and the circumstances of each encounter, Ike has no equivalent. Wolf’s kit is extremely versatile, having certain tricks against every character type (slightly out ranges most brawlers, has air speed and a projectile against swordies, two frame options, certain true combos on specific characters, and just general combo and kill power at any point in the match, while Ike has only one game. Roy has a very similar game to Ike’s in concept, but generally Roy works better. He’s not only faster and arguably more explosive in taking early stocks, but he does much better against the shield system. While his moves aren’t safe on parry, most of his landing aerials and some ground moves are safe on shield, and he has a good enough arguably great up-b out of shield and is generally fast enough to get something from every failed move by the opponent. Ike just needs something in his kit he can always fall back on, because now he’s just got a big sword swing to his advantage.
Some ideas : Give Ike a projectile Give Ike Urvan a legendary axe. Make him switch between both. Make Ike faster with the sword. No idea where to put the projectile on the B move. If just the projectile, tap B could work. If just Urvan, B to switch and lose Eruption (I bet everyone wouldn't care). He gains an entire character's worth of moveset. Doesn't counter. Can have ranged axe throw as side B. Diagonal Aether.
Very well said. I’ve always felt like ike was just a worse cloud. All of their moves are very similar minus the specials, but cloud is generally just better. As much as I like ike… he’s not great at top level. He’s fantastic on elite smash and he’s one of the first characters I got in, but once you start getting people who know the matchup, he fumbles pretty quickly.
I think for the next "What Happened to ____?" video, I would suggest Wario. He was used so much in the early metagame by multiple top Japanese players (Kameme, Zackray, and Abadango), while Tweek piloted him to immense glory as well. However, nowadays, you pretty much see only Glutonny rock the Wario at top level play.
PM Ike is the perfect version of him for the reasons you said he isn't good enough in Ult. They gave him the 3rd fastest initial dash in the game to let him position better, and let him jump/wavedash out of side b to allow for tricky dash mixups to add some sauce. That's really all he needed to be good. He's still raw fundies, he's still limited in combos and very gimpable. But he can position very well to help him control that space better than almost anyone and he has just enough pressure from side b cancels and his great dash grab/sword mix, to threaten the opponent if they try to just zone him or run away so they actually have to approach.
Great video. Though as a Pokémon player, I thought you were going somewhere else with that analogy. I saw that and thought “stealth rock, low kick, aggron doesn’t get to play”
Ike on Project M had been peak to me. I loved that version of Ike. I had been hoping for official Ike to FINALLY get some better utility of his quick draw, and while it did with being able to act out of hitting an opponent in the air... you still couldn't cancel out of it normally!!! Imagine my frustration when the first trailer came out along with the demo folks could play at E3, when i saw Little Mac be able to turn and shield or cancel out of his charge up move, not to mention air dodge out of his side-B when airborne, but Ike never got that QoL... Of course, given the info in this video, Ike probably wouldn't be that different in matching any better against the popular rushdown picks like Roy. But, ignoring Project M's amazing changes and additions like canceling and/or attacking, jumping, and grabbing mid-dash, the ability to just be able to charge a quickdraw, then decide to turn around, shield or cancel it would do that unique move wonders compared to it's extremely punishable commitment. AND maybe then he wouldn't be so boring to use :)
i love watching these videos despite not knowing a single thing on any level deeper than the surface about this game... so much terminology is going straight over my head, but I enjoy it nonetheless
I think all Ike needs is a slight buff to his counter, super armour on frame 4 for Aether (+ increase hitbox), Reduce frame startup for quickdraw (+ increase Range), and increase his speed by 10%. Ike doesn't need a gimmick or change in moves, he is slow, but balanced, he just needs to be better at what he already does.
i love ike, just like u said, hes the non royalty ordinary guy thats a journeyman sword guy. ppl may find his move set boring, but because i find his character concept even more likable than cloud, i still find him not boring. there's something cool to me about swinging that massive sword without gimmicks, it feels like im playing guts from berserk in smash.
How was Ike played by the end of S4's lifespan? The way Ryo played defense (1:42) is different from how I would use Ike, but I never really got much chances to test that in tournaments. Cause the way I see it, with perfect pivots were the major reason why I felt Ike can still be a threat in S4 because it synergised so well with his reach as he could maintain a threatening range for far longer as I found that so long as I keep a safe distance, I can mostly forego shielding and basically cut a bunch of wait time switching from defense to offense and back again. In a way, it's like how Muhammad Ali fought by standing just close enough for the other boxer to attempt a swing, far back enough that if the hit connected it wouldn't hurt him much, and use that opening to wallop the opponent. Perfect pivots also gave Ike's mostly rounded kit the flexibility to make great use at mixing play-styles of other characters. Cloud helped me become more comfortable being a constant nuisance sticking to the opponent's face, Shulk for staggering approaches , situational awareness, and approaching around projectiles. Bowser for pivot grabs and creative shield pressure, and Pit/Pittoo for using perfect pivots or just standing there as a free action to freak the opponent out into making a bad decision. Ultimate really wasn't kind to Ike as the lack of _useful_ universal tech (for all I know since last I played), Ike went from simple but very deep to simple and boring which also meant other characters can outclass him far easier as the video mentioned. Kinda sucked how much he fell off cause he was real interesting to play plus being *very* cathartic seeing people play so desperate when at match start they thought they had an easy W, but eh tough luck I guess.
The framedata on Sm4sh's Ike by the end of the game's lifespan was just not good enough for being an aggressive fighter. You ended up playing a game of Brawl neutral on defense, and going for the 2-3 hits combos that ended in either back air or Da to reset Neutral, and go at defense again. I really agree with ya that what killed Ike on Ultimate is the lack of microspacing options. What he really needs honestly is just more flavour and homage to his games. Make Aether heal him a little bit/a bunch if he hits/kills the opponent with it, , Make Quickslash lagless or canceleable with Aether on hit as a true combo. Heck, give him the Belmont's Cross attack, name it Hand-axe or Tomahawk and Ike's suddenly a hella lot better character.
Something that doesn't make sense about ike is that his up smash and f smash are both slower than ganon yet are substantially weaker. That and his fair is really weak and has a ton of endlag and just looks super awkward.
I think nair knockback scaling was a nerf lowkey but even though he was mostly buffed I miss brawl Ike especially his down tilt, up air, fair, and nair
I'm not sure if it was nerfed. The Brawl consensus is that Ike would be a high tier if it wasn't for Meta Knight, but because meta knight existed and was a -3 matchup then Ike was low tier.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
We Like Ike
He fights for his friends
I don’t like ike
For president.
Favourite swordy 💪🏽💪🏽
Everybody likes Ike
Ike being a regular Joe in Smash perfectly fits his backstory. I like how his kit isn't flashy, just a very straightforward dude swing his blade around like a baseball bat.
Yep that's why I ply him, I tend to like simple but strong characters in games, Garen is my main in league a legends and he's just a durable guy with a big sword that can take a beating and dish it out but doesn't do anything special.
He fights for his friends. That’s all we need.
Truth
It's funny because he doesn't even fight for his friends, he's a mercenary, he fights for money and vengeance
@@nvrmltice oh so i guess it's not truth ☹️
@@nvrmlticeit would be more like he fights along his friends?
@@nvrmltice tell me you haven’t played his fe game without telling me you haven’t played his fe game
Funny thing is that Ike could've realistically had a kit similar to Cloud's because of his stats and abilities in his home game.
He should be running as fast as Chrom tbh
Also, yeah. Ragnell in game can be long ranged. Lol
Ike in PoR? Shit. RD? Very glod
@@elitefourfay4712h, Ike was very good overall in terms of stats and access to Aether and 1-2 range, but being footlocked and swordlocked make him a pain to use for speedruns and LTCs.
Also remember when the first 5 pages of the Brawl Vault all had Cloud PSAs for Ike? Then he became his own character and even better anyway lmao
I will never understand why they didn't give Ike the blade beam but instead gave it to Cloud.
One of the easiest reasons to pick up Ike in the early days was because Ike was a simple, fundies sword character. He taught you how to cleanly play the game, and the most important aspects of the game, like neutral and ledge trapping which the current meta of today, hence why there’s not a lot of edge guarding characters dominating the scene
while characters with bad recoveries or decent enough have good ledge trapping, being Cloud, Byleth, Steve, Roy, ROB, Fox
Ike is essentially one of those characters, and because the game hadn’t been fully developed Ike got away with a lot of things, especially since people didn’t parry often lime they do today.
Byleth, Steve and Rob all having amazing recoveries, byleth being probably the best tether and rob being so effective he can stall for ages if need be. Also Joker, Pika, Rob, Palu, GnW, Diddy And Pac man are fucking good dude, all somewhat popular at low to mid level, all definitely close to your top 20 if you're worth your weight in salt and granted, great ledge trappers as well(with an exception to palu if you're picky), are all amazing Edgeguarders.
I do not understand what you are trying to say here and I definitely don't understand what Ike has to do with any of these characters, Also what does recovery have to do with ledgetrapping? seems as though the peak of advantage state(for most characters) shouldn't really be affected by their recovery(an aspect of disadvantage) other than maybe a huge blunder in positioning, leading to the disadvantaged player taking the upper hand.
Ike in my opinion is Slow. Slow on the ground, slow in the air, slow startup on all his moves, seems as though at the ledge, where he forces the opponent to make a move in to him, would naturally be the best position to make the character work.
but I also haven't watched the video 😕
@@pooper1614e's saying that Ike is a grounded character. Unlike your claim of being literally grounded
I was going to make the case that showing players what's possible is a cardinal error when you are a sword character that doesn't do any sword stuff particularly well
Wrong game.Wrong engine. Poor approach to design philos. I only say that because we'll rounded characters at least have honest results. You're going to have a gameplan that nets you positive outcomes when approached correctly
This being the case for a Mario type character whose games function that way. Mario wouldn't fall into a cliff, it's you as the player that doesn't know how to time it better. The princess needs saving, so any mistake is on your part in not navigating the terrain
This is not the case with Ike. He is all risk and no reward. All windup and no payoff. Anything that he can do well is outmatched by characters that probably require less effort to perform the simple tasks. By the time Ike achieves optimization in his stride Smash 7 is going to come out
I think Ike is unpopular because (ironically) he's very reliant on fundamentals
I mean, there's being very reliant on fundamentals, and then there's being VERY reliant on fundamentals.
And then there is block man
So where's the irony
@@nil148 fundies characters are easy to pick up, so they usually accrue a large player base.
@@Red-Faction fundies?
I think they could've played into his "I use a 2 hand sword with just 1" to give him an identity. Any move where he uses one hand should have fast frames, less power. And 2 handed moves do good shield damage or even more power.
Also, improve his F-smash. It has like the same power as Roy, but 10x worse frame data.
EXACTLY
His Smash attacks are meant to have their giant hitbox compensate for their lack of speed, but the problem is that giant hitboxes are made redundant in a game full of kill confirms.
Why swing big sword once when I get jab 5 sword twice, and if it hits once, it links into the kill?
@@faded9581 Yeah, I agree that was probably their intention...
But Ganondorf and Pyra both have similar F-smashes. Both have more range, more kill power, and significantly better frame data.
Now here's something depressing I just looked up: Ike's has 48 frames of end lag. I think that's the slowest in the game. Slower than Dedede, Bowser, and Hero.
And it might be the only f-smash that is more than 80 total frames. 😂
@@xanaviii I actually agree with you.
Ganon is both slow and stubby, so him having really good F Smashes makes sense, but just solo Pyra seems to utterly negate Ike as a character.
Pyra may not have nair combos, but she doesn't need it as her superior aerial drift allow her to use her uair the same as Ike's nair, and she can use her aerial more freely because of her superior air speed.
Hell, I cannot think of anything Ike does that Pyra doesn't do better. PR is superior to aether since it actually works oos and can be confirmed into rather than a hard callout, side b is a decent neutral option leading into setups, whereas Ike's quick draw autocancel is a one-time hat trick that will only give him stage control with no mixups or followups.
Her tilts and dair are so much better than Ike's I need not explain.
I suppose Ike's throws give him better positioning, but aside from that, he's utterly obsolete.
@@faded9581 yup, basically agree. Solo Pyra is kinda what Ike could've been. Anything Ike *might* even do slightly better than solo Pyra, has a caveat.
Like, I think Aether can be situationally better, as PR doesn't kill nearly as early with good DI. And Aether is great for ledge guarding some recoveries. If only Aether had a little more armor or was a little faster...
Quick draw is too slow despite it's name, and only helps mix up recovery if you're hit high. Otherwise just as exploitable as Pyra, if not more so.
I'm still an Ike main, but if I ever did try to compete seriously, I could never justify playing him over Aegis.
I play with my whole family, 4v1, and I can confidently say Ike is one of the best in the game for a casual setup like that. 😂
I wanna 4v1 that sounds dope
Oh gosh I used to love fighting 3-man CPU teams in Brawl with Ike and just blowing shit up with smash attacks lol
@doopliss 4v1 with auto handicapped turned on, the 3 kids and my gf against me. Usually ends up evening out around 100% damage start for me. It's good times. 😂👍
I think you wrapped up his issues perfectly. I've been an Ike main since Brawl when I was 8 years old and it's weird having so many different swordfighters with strictly better overall kits. Still love him though and I will always like Ike
I actually want to get better at Ike would you like to play smash sometime?
I almost picked up Ike and just picked Mii Swordfighter instead. Lose a bit of range and smash distance, gain an edge in every other category.
@@benjaminjameskreger Mii sword fighter is horrible compared to Ike lol. N-air is spammable and you can almost play neutral only using that move
@@Bladieblah MiiSF can juggle with their 360 nair too but they can also kill with bair and upair.
@@benjaminjameskreger I don't think they can, it has much smaller range and isn't as safe either. That combined with worse mobility stats makes it way less spammable
Great video. I'll main Ike because he's my favorite, but I'm still mad Sakurai said they originally thought giving a sword fighter a projectile would be too overpowered, and then years later gave Cloud one.
Don't forget corrin byleth sephiroth and sora
Well Cloud is special. I mean it's MF CLOUD in SMASH. Still blows my mind.
*years* later, so you mean the natural power creep of any franchise
@@Sh1ranu1 Nothing's stopping them just changing Ike's moves though. Moving Eruption over to Down-B would give him room for a sword beam on neutral. He doesn't need Counter.
Link has like 30 projectiles...
I'll always appreciate Ike for being my training wheels in Brawl, 4 and Ultimate.
I think people downplay the nerfs he got in patch 8.0.0.They gutted his greatest strength, the consistent Nair kill confirms, in exchange for buffs on committal moves like dash-attack and Aether. Also, Aether doesn't even work sometimes.
Yeah a lot of people said it wasnt a nerf, just a change, but was absolutely a nerf lol. Way worse combo and kill confirms, even if he has more options for kills, they're worse.
Nah
I appreciate other moves being able to kill and all that but to remove an amazing tool to make others better despite still not being great is just poor design
I still don't get why he doesn't have a ranged attack in Smash , in Path of Radiance/Radiant Dawn his personal weapon Ragnal can fire Air Slashes plus Ike can also use axes in RD , which is THE FE weapon known for good 1-2 ranged weapons
he should be able to pull out hand axe or tomohawk like peaches turnips
They were trying to replace Roy back in brawl
Imagine if Aether could recover health. At least it is a ko move now
@@12Marxzero34I know Roy was put into Melee before his own game released, but Binding Blade was also a 1-2 range weapon lol
@@nvrmlticeThey only gave it Luna. We'll take it I guess
as an ike main i am completely sad. however i can be happy knowing he'll fight for his friends
I'm PsyKoD, currently the best Ike in the US and ranked #2 in Ohio, recently placing 9th at the Big House 10 and I have wins on players like IcyMist, BassMage, Blacktwinz, and Doorstop. I think the main reason that Ike has fallen out of popularity is the fact that his specs are insane. Take a character like Cloud, he's at around 90-95% at everything he does. Good speed, good out of shield, good disadvantage, good advantage. Ike is specced out a bit more lopsidedly, with up to 150% in some categories, but 40-50% in others, and those bad spots can be exploited very easily. Vs characters like Roy or Fox, there are situations that Ike can be put in where the option needed to make it out positive simply do not exist. He struggles immensely vs rushdown due to no oos faster than frame 10 and one of the worst disadvantage states in the game, arguably worse than the likes of DK and Ganondorf. This really kills Ike in the US, because NA's meta is far more focused on rushdown. I think part of Yez's recent success in Japan is the fact that the Japanese meta is so much less reliant on mashy rushdown and moreso on patient neutral play, which Ike EXCELS at. However, in matchups like Luigi, Kazuya, Steve, Ness, etc, where they're really stubby and snow but the caviat is that you have to fight their amazing boxing tools, Ike nearly invalidates them because Ike can entirely skip interacting with those tools. Ike is really different from every other sword, but the closest comparison is Cloud. Cloud's bair is similar to Ike's nair in that it's big and defines his neutral but the difference between the two is that Ike's nair is SO big that the amount of leniency you have vs characters like Kazuya and Steve makes it a much easier time to outspace them compared to with Cloud, who on paper would win harder but who's spacing is less lenient to the point where it's extremely unreasonable to expect Cloud to space it correctly every time. Ike's absolutely phenominal in matchups where he can play, but in matchups where he's suffocated and can't get his stuff going (think extremely fast characters with amazing advantage states and bypass neutral by mashing on Ike, where he can't do anything), he's miserable to play. Roy singlehandedly makes a run at a major with Ike insane, because you're guaranteed to run into one and it's genuinely a -3 matchup, albeit Ike's only -3.
Oh, and as a sidenote: Ike was designed as a "slow, strong sword" because Sakurai already had a blueprint for that archetype and decided it fit Ike for some godforesaken reason even tho he's insanely fast in PoR and RD. And in Brawl, Ike was actually not as bad as people think. He was one of those characters who actually had a really good matchups spread if you didn't include MK, but folded to MK so hard that he was completely unplayable. In a timeline where MK wasn't included, Ike would genuinely have been p good in Brawl.
I actually decided to pick up Ike literally a day before this video came out lol. Do you think you could give me tips or do you have a discord for Ike’s I could join? I think he’d make a great secondary as far as matchup spread since my main is fox
@@kurokaien18 my training partner is a fox main so ive though about ike in the context of fox a lot and genuinely i think ike is one of the best secondaries for fox in the game. shoot me a message on twitter or ping me in the ike discord and ill be more than happy to answer any questions
ohio
I am a casual Ike main. I beat a lot of my buddies with him if I try hard. Around 11 million GSP online. Funny thing is a lot of people get caught by using a quick draw to the ledge and then countering their follow up ledge attack for a kill, I also can time his special explosion to edge guard well, its almost uncanny how I can perfectly time it so much.Prob not good enough for the competitive stage, but for everyone else not in the pro scene Ike is very viable so don't care about tierlist too much.
I always think about that one cutscene in Subspace Emissary where Ike is running side by side with Marth going fast as fuck and it makes me wonder what could have been...
Before Joker became a thing, one of my friends played Palu, while the other played Ike. Back then, we thought Ike and Shulk were SO FAST, all because we weren’t used to the speed of the game yet. Once we finally dialed in however, I think everyone understood that the speed of these guys is just a general speed increase from the prior entry and they’re actually relatively slow compared to the rest of the cast. I think it’s cool however, that these characters are still considered high or even top tiers. I feel like most underground characters finally got their chance in this game, such as G&W, R.O.B., Pac-Man, Wario, Pichu, and yes, the aforementioned Ike, Shulk, and Palutena. While not on the top anymore due to the increasing tides of competition with the sword category especially, seeing these mid tier snail’s pace swordies finally get some recognition, especially Ike with how long he’s been waiting, is cathartic for me. Idk, I love it when odd balls get their chance
I use to really love how Ike could cancel his quick draw into jab in brawl. I felt like I had so much control of the ground with that tool. If i remember correctly you kept a bit of the momentum after cancelling too so you had a travelling hitbox for a few frames and the jab was way less punishable than the quick draw's regular attack. It made Ike feel like a way faster character too.
Wait so the Prima guide was actually telling the truth? Cause I got into competitive Smash in Brawl and I never heard of QD canceling except in that Prima guide.
Though if you mean P:M, he can jump out of it so you could wavedash out of it.
And then in one build pf Brawl- you could act out of QD at the end of the move, which made for hilarious set ups like QD > counter > fully charged Eruption.
@@JAMllostthegame ya sorry i think i misinformed you i wasnt using the terminology properly. I think what im talking about is the build you mentioned at the end. Like the recovery on the move was super short if you didnt make it close enough for the attack to come out so youd just tap it for a second for the burst of forward momentum and jab and im sure there was much crazier stuff like you mentioned
This felt like such a good explanation, I picked up Ike and have been enjoying him recently, and I was playing Ganon before. When people know how to play against Ike, it feels impossible to approach, since a single swing and a miss usually leads to me being punished, at times even if I space it correctly. Especially against rush down characters, I have an easier time punishing or getting out with Ganon, since even Ganon makes most of Ikes moves feel slow.
What's weird to me is that by all means Ike should have a projectile, in his own games one of Ragnell's big strengths as a weapon is that it can fire sword beams. If Cloud, a character with generally better frame data, is allowed to have sword beams I don't see why Ike can't.
Ike doesn't have a projectile, this despite the fact that the Ragnell is a sword capable of indirect combat, and the projectile would be faster that Cloud's Sword Beam.
It's probably not what he needs, but he technically has access to it and it baffles me that they didn't include that after Brawl even though they put a lot more effort in the newcomers from Fire Emblem.
They did it to keep it familiar and for archetype reasons
8:00 Funny thing is that Mythra made Pyra as a kinder, weaker alter ego because she hated herself for being so powerful. Now that character trait followed over into Smash
They are also used similarly because you basically spam just mythra and use pyra just to set up special combos and chain attacks to finish off the enemy.
I'm happy to hear from another of Brawl's Ike mains. I had nobody else to play that game with so I had no idea if that was common or not.
Ike should have had some superarmor on his smash attacks. Also imagine if he could cancel out of his sideB with jump or grab.
Thanks for taking the time to go into the meta changes that impact these characters. Made me realize my perception of a lot of the cast is outdated
Something that also hurt Ike, that I think also hurt Ganondorf down-the-line, is that players eventually discovered that his plethora of buffs in the transition to Ultimate did come with some costs.
1) Dash speed got barely an increase in the transition to Ultimate, making MUCH slower relative to the rest of the cast going into Ultimate.
2) Up tilt has smaller hitboxes and less damage without compensation on knockback. The latter thing contributes to the late hits newfound combo potential, but it does hurt its KO power overall.
3) Forward air got hit hard. It no longer autocancels in a short hop, which is a crucial tool for Ike in the previous games. Granted he didn't have Ultimate nair in the previous games, but it was still a very good tool to have. Its KO power is also noticeably weaker. As a matter of fact, it was pathetically weak when Ultimate first came out. Patch 8.0.0 helped compensate for this, but it is still weaker than in the previous games.
4) Grab game is hurt overall thanks to the universal nerfs to grabs, as well as up and down throws having their combo potentials nerfed despite Ike's faster jumpsquat. Up throw in particular lost pretty much all of its combo potential.
Funnily enough, Ike's meta did actually get rejuvenated when the 8.0 changes hit, as opinion of the character was dropping off pretty hard at that time only for it to increase after the 8.0.0 changes. Unfortunately, opinion on the character dropped off further down the line.
Sadly, Ike is one of those characters that is kinda stuck in mid tier purgatory for pretty much his entire existence (outside of early Ultimate). R.O.B. was also this case until Ultimate came out.
Fair and up tilt becoming kill moves again would make me so happy
Ike was my main in Brawl so I always loved him. He was just so f-ing strong. I really only struggled with fast high finesse characters like Diddy Kong, Snake, and Game and Watch. A shame to see such low representation at competitive play in the new game. Hope I get to play Ultimate one day and try him out.
If they wanted Ike to stay the “Slow but Strong” type then next Smash game give him Urvan and let him be the first real FE character with an Axe (yes Byleth technically counts but I want more)
It would really be cool to have more representation of the other weapon types besides Swords. Robin and Byleth were a great steps but if Ike is going to be the hulking strongman at least let him use his axes too.
1:18 There are actually some similarities between Ike and Roy, particularly if you look at the things that differentiated Roy and Marth in Melee. Other than the inverted tipper, Roy was intended to be more powerful with a stronger neutral-B and a more powerful counter, and both are retained in Ike. Of course, they took Roy in a different direction when he was brought back with his netural-B instead remaining as a bit of an outlier in his design.
8:00 If you've played Xenoblade 2 you'll realise how messed up that sentence was lol
He was my main for around a year and I greatly enjoyed him but the biggest thing that made me drop him was the little options he had. His neutral is practically just nair and he just got too repetitive for me. I still love him. I return to play him from time to time because his aether is always fun.
I am an Ike main in Smash. The only issue I had was his English voice. I ended up changing my in game language to Korean which fixed the issue.
I'm surprised you didn't bring up PsyKoD at all when talking about Ike mains. He got 9th at Big House this year and did it beating Frostbyte who plays Ike's worst matchup Roy. Very strong player who you should look into!
He commented on this video
It would be cool to see a Why Everyone Plays Lucina and the counterpart video, Why No One Plays Marth.
Isn't Marth just lucina but with his power locked into a sweet spot?
@@classarank7youtubeherokeyb63 Yeah, but the tipper barely does more damage than Lucina. You get almost all the damage as Marth, but you don't have to be as accurate. Not to mention Smash has way more spacers than Marth. Pyra/Mythra, Roy, Cloud, Sephiroth.
@@eljoel89 While he does very little extra percentage, I think he does quite a lot more knockback with tippers.
@@juniperrodley9843 Yep, especially his monstrous tipper F-Smash. That shit kills as early as 30% near the ledge.
@@kimoota-kun Damn that's almost as much as Kazuya's easier to set up tipper F-Smash
Ike and DK are great "oh, you've never played smash - try these characters" types of characters
I’ve been an Ike main forever, and despite his weaknesses I enjoy his gameplay a lot
Ike should’ve had a projectile on his neutral special similar to clouds. His up special should also throw his sword diagonally and then have him come straight down kinda like a reverse incineroar up special. Both would help him tons and make his character more true to his source games.
I miss Ike’s 1.0 NAIR. . .
Still love him though!
Please do a Duck Hunt episode! I absolutely love the character and the amount of tech he has, but given how hard you have to work for your stocks, he’s a prime candidate for this series. He CAN produce amazing results in the right hands, but you have to work around some pretty major flaws to get those results.
(And if you do make the episode, please talk about some can tech like reversal moves and anchor can!)
Hehehe... He "can." I see what you did there. But, yes! I want to see a Duck Hunt Episode! I think I only know 4 Duck Hunt mains that play competitively.
Also, he oddly enough got overall nerfed in ultimate patches. They really did not liked the frisbee.
Ike is a strong secondary for me. I wish his nair confirmed at a little higher percents, his side b wouldn’t put him in free fall, he had a slightly better smash attack (maybe less power but comes out fast for f smash or up smash, and please please let him run just slightly faster.
You're a child if you want anything beyond the nair part of your sentence.
@@destroy7569 I guess someone died one too many times to an online Ike 😂
You need to close out stocks faster then
I've been maining Ike since brawl. Lorewise one of things that always bugged me was Ike is special in his games in that his signature weapon Ragnell can attack from range, so I was upset when cloud got a ranged move and Ike didn't. I think they could fix his laggy counter as a potential balance. But otherwise your analysis nailed it, everything that Ike does someone else can do it too, and often times better. His gimmicks are all in his special moves but they all have such a high price tag to use them to where they aren't exploitable like the rest of the cast and the payoff for landing them correctly sometimes isn't worth it, save may eruption, but even still are you using eruption to ledge trap EVERY time or against EVERY matchup? So idk, it makes me excited for smash 6 cause it seems like he has no where to go but up.
I think Ike should have been more slow and strong. Making him more like a heavy but with crazy range would have been more fun and unique while still keeping him simple.
Yeah I like this idea slower heavier and with way more range and a projectiles would be really cool
You’re one of the few creators who’s uploads legitimately excite me when I see them in my feed. Keep it up vars
"Ike has poor get off me options."
King Dedede: "First time?"
I've always played Zelda and over the years my brother decided to pick up Ike as a counter, which worked well most of the time but his gap closing abilities in ultimate really evened the playing field, the amount of times I've teleported directly into an up B, I've lost count lol
Ike is killing it in PM/P+
Yeah. I think he was rated A tier on a recent community tier list.
RIP gold Ike alt from brawl. . .
Unfortunately Ike is just a worse version of several characters. There is really no excuse to play him when you can play:
Ike with Monado arts (Shulk)
Ike but can switch to Mythra (Aegis)
Ike but versatile and well rounded (Cloud)
Ike but min-maxed (Sephiroth)
Ike with more precision and more reward (Byleth)
Ike but faster (Lucina)
Ike if he did a fusion dance with Marth and a dragon, and he came out solidly high tier (Corrin)
I'm aware how offhand it was but as a comp player I feel the need to say the pokemon comparison is actually quite the same as Smash. The reason Speed is good is because you can deny your opponent their turn at all, they are not guaranteed it unless they survive, rather than being guaranteed it if they do. In this case Defense, the ability to be more likely to get a turn, would be comparable to having options to relieve pressure mentioned later in the video. If I were then asked to determine the main difference of speed in Smash Bros, it would have to be in how its tied to controlling the battlefield through positioning. (In pokemon the equivalent would be setting field conditions and having the pokemon you want on both side of the field)
Basically Ike is a the smash equivalent to Ramphardos; high attack, low defense, low speed. Is one of the worst competitive mons period because of the lack of opportunities it has to attack, but is quite good at punishing bad players; again, just like Ike.
One of the reasons I stopped was all the way back in Smash 4. his Side B was nerfed hard and could nolonger be held down indefinitely. As a result, he had a harder time getting back on stage.
Maybe Ike could get an axe like Simon and Richtor. Ike can use axes when he promotes to Vanguard in Radiant Dawn.
Fellow Brawl Ike main LET'S GOOOOOOO
I think you said it best that everything Ike can do, someone else can do better. It kinda feels like he suffers from being too much in the middle, with nothing outstanding enough for him to make use of considering his intended design. His linearity also adds to this.
Also it feels like all the extra strength he has is useless and it doesn't feel like he can kill that much earlier compared to others in the cast. And even going into his KO moves you realize that two of them are great spacing and combo tools so they end up being stale (fair, bair), one is decent but his poor air mobility doesn't make it cover as much space as it should (up air), and one is a gimmick as an out of shield option, bait with super armor, or a suicide move (Aether). I will say that dash attack is pretty funny because it can be easily telegraphed, but is deceptively fast and wide when unsuspected. Bonus points to jab3 getting KO power for no reason though lol.
And when it comes to rage, he can't make use of it as much as the actual heavies because he's not actually a heavy and has an exploitable recovery. Rage being weaker doesn't help (I miss KOing with uptilt lol).
Overall I feel like he is very well-designed, especially after his rework, but the better half of the cast feels too overtuned for him to keep up.
Also I might be biased because imo P:M Ike was the best version of Ike overall. At least to me he felt well-balanced compared to the rest of the cast without compromising his design (except maybe walljump QD). Idk about current P+ though since I stopped playing that.
I am an Ike chad. I will never give up my boy Ike
I'll die before I drop Ike.
"Why no one plays Link?" could be an interesting topic, I'm biased as hell but it'd be cool to see more people talk about him, he's an interesting and really cool character that deserves more love
Too slow. Is as simple as that.
@@N12015 slow in what sense? Ground and air speed?
@@nathanm5533 And frame data. Without being that strong or with that much range for a swordfighter. His normals are just bad outside of N-Air. The more I think about it the worse regular Link stands over the children counterparts.
From playing Ike, I think that a way to fix him would be to keep the property of eruption of charging to gain power, but keep the disjointed hotbox universal and reduce lag for the uncharged move. Something akin to Sephiroth's flare, safer but less power uncharged.
Ike was easily way better in the earlier stages of Ultimate but after a while people started to find out how predictable his neutral game and recovery is and how much of a pain dealing with characters with projectiles or characters with a fast paced natural game can be which was mostly why a lot of people just stopped playing him and went for the other sword characters how don't struggle as much or can keep up with said characters.
Although I agree that ike can still be viable if they don't know the match up and what not but if they do then good luck.
Ike is still my favorite swordie and one of my favorite characters in ssbu today, but I don't play at a high level or anything lol. PoR and RD are two of my favorite games and he's just awesome. I do think they need to improve his combo ability and frame data more and leave a few meaty attacks that make him satisfying, but it's weird that he has the notoriety of being slow when he's....definitely not in his games. He also can attack from range with his sword, so it's weird to see him not have that either.
Pyra is literally like Ike, but has an option to switch into a speed demon haha I still love playing Ike.
I am a HUGE Ike enjoyer, been maining him competitively since Brawl. But in this chapter I simply couldn't.
He lost many things that made him appealing to me. For starters, streamlining his Uair, while making it better as a followup, also made it way less interesting and removed its niche as an airdodge coverer. That move was SO fun to use to cover airdodges, I think they should've expanded in that aspect instead of making it just another arching uair.
His killpower is overall average with some high power moves, but you really can't sell him as a huge power swordman and justify him being so damn slow. I would either buff his speed a little or bump up some numbers in his dmg/KB.
Another thing I hate is how damn stiff he looks. He used to have a damn cool backflip when performing a jump backward and besides confusing the opponent a little, it also had a useful hurtbox shift. Now he's like a wood piece whenever he jumps.
Overall, I would give him back his signature moves (helicopter uair, violent Fair (like in Brawl), annoying 1-2 jab), and give him more power and better ground game so he has a niche no other swordie fills. Mixups from 1-2 jabs, good grab game, strong tilts (and making dtilt even more useful).
I don't think he needs to have get-off-me tools, not every character needs a strong OoS option, especially if they are strong at zoning and/or have a good advantage state.
Just make Ike strong when grounded and have good transitions from air to ground, making him a character that wants to use falling aerials and then slap you when you're both on the field instead of another juggling swordie that can't do any of his jobs better than any other sword wielder.
Hey... im still playing him.... :(
And i will never stop!
This video is inaccurate :/
I don't really normally comment on these vids be a use they are well researched and accurate, but this one is a bit yikes because it completely ignores Japan as a region. Ike is considered bottom tier in Japan with some pros even having him as low as Ganon, Doc, Plant, etc. i just double checked quickly: Proto has him in low tier, Hikaru in bottom tier, etc.
It feels like this video was heavy biased with PoR being your fav Fire Emblem and where Ike used to be in the meta, and that's ok cause I'm guilty of doing stuff like that in my own content but it weakens this video compared to the others. It feels like the creative process here started with the assumption Ike is a respectable high tier and is trying to justify it, which still may be true, but is disingenuous to say about pros when half of top players don't feel that way at all.
Still love the content, still gonna watch everything, still a ton of quality in the channel, but wanted to point it out not to be a jerk but because it's just simply inaccurate
If I had to guess that's because Ike is awful against defense, a very prominent style in Japan. Because his moves are slow he can't really shield pressure, which is a big problem. Ike is amazing at punishing approaches, which makes it better in the west, but is still a pure Pyra with less kill power, and pure Pyra is not very good due to being so slow and commital.
@@N12015 totally agree, and that is a perfect illustration of why this video is framed incorrectly through bad information.
@@robmaclennan9421 Also, apparently his worst matchups are apparently rushdown swordfighters because you can't play the spacing game with them, most notably Roy, Mythra, Chrom and Meta Knight, two of them being everywhere and one of them being the reason he was mediocre in Brawl (Why did they allowed MK in Brawl..? Ohh yeah, social pressure because smash players can be morons at times). That's why he's low-mid tier at best, just like the other 2 installments.
Two things that, I think, factor into Ike's design, but not into professional community play:
1. Ike plays like how a casual would think Cloud should play. After Guts in Berserk, and Cloud in FF7 (the two major codifiers for gigaswordies in their respective media/genres), there was a glut of megaswords in anime (think Ichigo's initial Zangetsus in Bleach, or the Ravesword in Rave) and gaming (Dante's Rebellion and Nero's Red Queen in Devil May Cry), and with it, a glut of parodies/subversions. Namely that, with a sword that big (and, implicitly, heavy), it should take longer to swing, and hit harder when it does hit. I think Ike in Smash is/was an homage to that idea, until Cloud himself (playing like his own archetype) returned, and with him, Sephiroth (the masamune is pure rule of cool, sorry) and Pyra/Homura (to contrast with Mythra/Hikari) later.
2. Ike is the heavy archetype for swordies ...for casuals. In casual play, heavies can tank (and by extension stay alive) more due to not being the only focus of attack by an opponent/multiple opponents. A Ganon/Bowser can "Doryah!"/Dropkick three other characters if said characters are stuck in someone else's Little Mac/Falco jab combo, for example (which I use as an example because I did that exact thing as Bowser in a casual online free-for-all with friends. They were not happy), as opposed to having to look for punish opportunities in 1v1. Ike is that character (pre-Pyra) if you want that power in a swordie (like how K. Rool and Banjo Kazooie are zoners for heavies and jack-of-all-trades, respectively. IMO.)
While it is antithetical to competitive play (due to randomness), I think there is merit in exploring how certain archetypes work in general competitive modes (as opposed to professional competitive modes) that aren't either 1v1 or 2v2 (like free-for-all, lap stages, stage hazards, and items). That way we can, as a community, come to understand why certain design choices are made (i.e. for casual gaming sessions vs competitive gaming matches), rather than bemoaning that our fav doesn't work in 1v1 (which is only part of the environment they were designed to work in).
Was gonna say the exact same thing as your first point. Ike is slower and stronger because his weapon, from a *design* viewpoint is slower and stronger, ignoring anime-rules. If someone told me Ike was Nintendo’s homage to Cloud, I’d believe it 100%.
And as far as making Ike interesting, I dunno. Half the roster needs a move update (looking at you, breakdancing, tornado summoning, hedgehog). Personally, I’d like more than just the (boring) swordies to have a custom combo side B
1.- That explains why Maximilian Dood plays him despite not knowing/caring about Fire Emblem, his similarity to Guts, especially with his Black Armor alt.
2.- Ike was introduced in Brawl, the most casual smash entry ever. so it makes sense why he´s a very straightforward and beginner friendly swordie.
3.- I dont care much about competitive other than Riddles using Kazuya or Quik´s flashy Samus, so Im not going to have an opinion on that, but youre right about the last part (1v1 is only part of smash, not the entirety of it)
“You should totally make one on Pit and Dark Pit”
Creator: “….Whose Pit and Dark Pit?”
Ike to me still has some relevance as of recent with good 9th place finishes from Yez and Psykod. Along with ikes in japan picking up good wins on Asimo. He definitely has value as a counter pick character with solid strengths and only a few -2 match ups to invalidate him. I am excited to see how my fellow ike mains adapt and continue to improve.
Can you do "Why No One Plays Pit and Dark Pit"? I can already guess why most people don't play those characters, but I'd still like to see a video on them since I kind of main Pit.
Because he's way too ordinary and very inconsistent as well. That's what happens when your kit is made almost entirely of multihits.
@@N12015 I'd still like to see a video on him.
Fun fact: I havent played in like a year, but when I played Ike side b has a property in which it doesnt have any end lag or reduced end lag if its done at a certain distance from the floor: a little less than the platforms on the omega stages, it can be useful to surprise your oponents once but dont expect it to work more than once
Ike is actually still a pretty popular character, but basically nobody gets results with him so nobody notices.
Cloud is absolutely not a fundies character. Oh my fucking god the only way he could say this is because he's a cloud main. The reason people play cloud (and not ike) is that cloud allows you to spam half of his moves without any risk. He is the opposite of fundamentals he plays the fucking game for you.
This is awesome and ironic. I saw the title before I saw the thumbnail and part of what I was going to say was Brawl Ike is my favorite variant. I liked how he looked like the average, slightly muscular young man yet hit like a runaway train. I didn't care for his later, bulkier appearances. Made him feel even slower than he actually was. Anyroad, Ike (ironically replacing Roy) was my preferred FE character in Brawl. I was never a fan of playstyles like Bowser and Ganondorf, though I did play them occasionally; there was something different about Ike. Maybe it was just a placebo, but for me, it was like Ike's movement was around average yet he hit incredibly hard. I was never as satisfied landing heavy blows with anyone until I played Ike. His fully charged forward Smash always felt great when it connected and don't get me started on his Brawl Final Smash...man. Such a fun character. Huh...unrelated, but I wonder if Ike influenced me later into liking KHBBS Terra (my favorite KH character). Interesting...
As a person who loves playing Ike, I’d say the big reason is Ike is basically Pyra without Mythra
Weaker than Pyra too
@@stevenliang3213 is he? Never really looked that close
I didn't know that Kyles Brother is in Smash Bros.
I used to play Ike a lot at the start of ultimate. He was very powerful and had some tricks, but ultimately his playstyle specifically doesn’t scale well. He has only one unique tech to him, landing cancelling QuickDraw, and he has one of the most linear recoveries in the game.
Gonna compare Ike to three characters I picked up overtime and generally found more success with.
Snake has comparable survivability and kill power, although he doesn’t usually kill on stage with one quick aerial like swordies do, but unlike Ike who has to bring his power to the opponent and deal with the consequences of that, Snake simply doesn’t have to worry about that. Vars will make a video on snake eventually, but he arguably is the character with the biggest control of the pace of the match and the circumstances of each encounter, Ike has no equivalent.
Wolf’s kit is extremely versatile, having certain tricks against every character type (slightly out ranges most brawlers, has air speed and a projectile against swordies, two frame options, certain true combos on specific characters, and just general combo and kill power at any point in the match, while Ike has only one game.
Roy has a very similar game to Ike’s in concept, but generally Roy works better. He’s not only faster and arguably more explosive in taking early stocks, but he does much better against the shield system. While his moves aren’t safe on parry, most of his landing aerials and some ground moves are safe on shield, and he has a good enough arguably great up-b out of shield and is generally fast enough to get something from every failed move by the opponent.
Ike just needs something in his kit he can always fall back on, because now he’s just got a big sword swing to his advantage.
Some ideas :
Give Ike a projectile
Give Ike Urvan a legendary axe.
Make him switch between both.
Make Ike faster with the sword.
No idea where to put the projectile on the B move. If just the projectile, tap B could work.
If just Urvan, B to switch and lose Eruption (I bet everyone wouldn't care). He gains an entire character's worth of moveset. Doesn't counter. Can have ranged axe throw as side B. Diagonal Aether.
Very well said.
I’ve always felt like ike was just a worse cloud. All of their moves are very similar minus the specials, but cloud is generally just better.
As much as I like ike… he’s not great at top level. He’s fantastic on elite smash and he’s one of the first characters I got in, but once you start getting people who know the matchup, he fumbles pretty quickly.
I think for the next "What Happened to ____?" video, I would suggest Wario. He was used so much in the early metagame by multiple top Japanese players (Kameme, Zackray, and Abadango), while Tweek piloted him to immense glory as well. However, nowadays, you pretty much see only Glutonny rock the Wario at top level play.
I still like Ike, though I find myself playing hero or link more online because everyone picks projectile characters.
"Yes I'm including minmin" I'm more concerned about the robin you threw in there
PM Ike is the perfect version of him for the reasons you said he isn't good enough in Ult. They gave him the 3rd fastest initial dash in the game to let him position better, and let him jump/wavedash out of side b to allow for tricky dash mixups to add some sauce. That's really all he needed to be good. He's still raw fundies, he's still limited in combos and very gimpable. But he can position very well to help him control that space better than almost anyone and he has just enough pressure from side b cancels and his great dash grab/sword mix, to threaten the opponent if they try to just zone him or run away so they actually have to approach.
This helped me understand much better thank you. Big rip ike 😢.
Never forget Marss taking 1 squad strike game with Ike as his lead
Great video. Though as a Pokémon player, I thought you were going somewhere else with that analogy. I saw that and thought “stealth rock, low kick, aggron doesn’t get to play”
I do love playing Ike against my friends in group games, but closing out those final stocks once it's down to 1v1 can be really difficult.
imagine if they let ike use his ragnel's 1-2 range
Ike on Project M had been peak to me. I loved that version of Ike. I had been hoping for official Ike to FINALLY get some better utility of his quick draw, and while it did with being able to act out of hitting an opponent in the air... you still couldn't cancel out of it normally!!!
Imagine my frustration when the first trailer came out along with the demo folks could play at E3, when i saw Little Mac be able to turn and shield or cancel out of his charge up move, not to mention air dodge out of his side-B when airborne, but Ike never got that QoL...
Of course, given the info in this video, Ike probably wouldn't be that different in matching any better against the popular rushdown picks like Roy. But, ignoring Project M's amazing changes and additions like canceling and/or attacking, jumping, and grabbing mid-dash, the ability to just be able to charge a quickdraw, then decide to turn around, shield or cancel it would do that unique move wonders compared to it's extremely punishable commitment. AND maybe then he wouldn't be so boring to use :)
Thats my biggest gripe with Ike in Smash. He doesn't feel like the Ike I know and love from Path of Radiance for example.
i love watching these videos despite not knowing a single thing on any level deeper than the surface about this game... so much terminology is going straight over my head, but I enjoy it nonetheless
I think all Ike needs is a slight buff to his counter, super armour on frame 4 for Aether (+ increase hitbox), Reduce frame startup for quickdraw (+ increase Range), and increase his speed by 10%. Ike doesn't need a gimmick or change in moves, he is slow, but balanced, he just needs to be better at what he already does.
Should do a video on Terry next, he's such a weird niche where he's simultaneously meta and not at the same time
I just fought the same ike like 20 or more times and he didn't even win ONE match, and yet he still rematched me! I was so frickin confused
i love ike, just like u said, hes the non royalty ordinary guy thats a journeyman sword guy. ppl may find his move set boring, but because i find his character concept even more likable than cloud, i still find him not boring. there's something cool to me about swinging that massive sword without gimmicks, it feels like im playing guts from berserk in smash.
It's been 4 years since SSBU got released in December 2018. Ike needs some major buffs.
How was Ike played by the end of S4's lifespan? The way Ryo played defense (1:42) is different from how I would use Ike, but I never really got much chances to test that in tournaments. Cause the way I see it, with perfect pivots were the major reason why I felt Ike can still be a threat in S4 because it synergised so well with his reach as he could maintain a threatening range for far longer as I found that so long as I keep a safe distance, I can mostly forego shielding and basically cut a bunch of wait time switching from defense to offense and back again. In a way, it's like how Muhammad Ali fought by standing just close enough for the other boxer to attempt a swing, far back enough that if the hit connected it wouldn't hurt him much, and use that opening to wallop the opponent.
Perfect pivots also gave Ike's mostly rounded kit the flexibility to make great use at mixing play-styles of other characters. Cloud helped me become more comfortable being a constant nuisance sticking to the opponent's face, Shulk for staggering approaches , situational awareness, and approaching around projectiles. Bowser for pivot grabs and creative shield pressure, and Pit/Pittoo for using perfect pivots or just standing there as a free action to freak the opponent out into making a bad decision.
Ultimate really wasn't kind to Ike as the lack of _useful_ universal tech (for all I know since last I played), Ike went from simple but very deep to simple and boring which also meant other characters can outclass him far easier as the video mentioned. Kinda sucked how much he fell off cause he was real interesting to play plus being *very* cathartic seeing people play so desperate when at match start they thought they had an easy W, but eh tough luck I guess.
The framedata on Sm4sh's Ike by the end of the game's lifespan was just not good enough for being an aggressive fighter. You ended up playing a game of Brawl neutral on defense, and going for the 2-3 hits combos that ended in either back air or Da to reset Neutral, and go at defense again. I really agree with ya that what killed Ike on Ultimate is the lack of microspacing options. What he really needs honestly is just more flavour and homage to his games. Make Aether heal him a little bit/a bunch if he hits/kills the opponent with it, , Make Quickslash lagless or canceleable with Aether on hit as a true combo. Heck, give him the Belmont's Cross attack, name it Hand-axe or Tomahawk and Ike's suddenly a hella lot better character.
Just found this channel after watching a lot of vars 1
This is great keep doing it
I’ve been a ike user since brawl tbh that one cutscene made him become my favorite
Something that doesn't make sense about ike is that his up smash and f smash are both slower than ganon yet are substantially weaker. That and his fair is really weak and has a ton of endlag and just looks super awkward.
I think nair knockback scaling was a nerf lowkey but even though he was mostly buffed I miss brawl Ike especially his down tilt, up air, fair, and nair
I'm not sure if it was nerfed. The Brawl consensus is that Ike would be a high tier if it wasn't for Meta Knight, but because meta knight existed and was a -3 matchup then Ike was low tier.
I bet if Leo played Ike for one tourney, someone would make a video called “Why Everyone Plays Ike”
Ike is the fastest fire emblem lord and his sword shoots god killing lazer beams. Thank you for coming to my ted talk.
Prepare yourself
We like Ike. We also miss Ryo.
7:59 "Alter ego everyone wishes never existed" Massive OOF, if you know the story of Xenoblade 2/Mythra and Pyra :D
Mythra is the original lol