@@Robotech2049 Is it legit to do 2 temporal surge on the same unit ? For example, this way, a mutalith moves to 30" ? I see nothing in the rules that contradicts it.
I was playing vs knights last friday and my standard sorcerer with arcane vortex killed canis rex in 1 shooting phase with re rolling hits/wounds stratagem and plus 1 to wound from magnus. I also spiked the roll for attacks and landed 22/25 attacks, 9 of them being devasting wounds from the one model alone and he hit so many 1s and 2s on the save roll that the sorcerer did 26 wounds and we down went canis. My opponent was so mindblown he forgot to disembark sir hektur 😂
I had a similar damage spike against a Tyrannofex, 1 Sorcerer with arcane vortex spiked the sustained hits extremely hard. 12 hits turned into 34 and 12 of them were devastating wounds and he still had to make 18 saving throws but it was dead to dev wounds either way. My friend never looks at sorcerers the same way ever again 😂
It's worth noting that the change to custodes is a nerf to ksons trying to fight them. Our way to get around tanky stuff like custodes is mortal and dev wounds, now that custodes get the FNP against dev wounds again, going into custodes as ksons can sting quite a bit.
The Custodes changes were right...the points changes probably weren't, and they'll be fixed, but Custodes were all but unplayable without the dev wounds protection. I think you'll see wardens, allarus and maybe a couple characters go up,.should essentially drop a 4-5 model unit and Custodes will be a 50ish win rate army with a win or two over a 90 day period between dataslates
No the custodes changes were not right. 4+ mitigation against everything army wide is just stupid and it is the primary reason why custodes have gone from zero to hero overnights. It should have been 5+, but frankly custodes have no place in the game for both lore and balancing reasons. Since they have been out GW has been unable to balance them.
@@Internetbutthurt Your entire justification resides in a matter of degree, point is A save against dev wounds was necessary, sure, we can negotiate over whether a 4+ or 5+ is appropriate, but it seems we don't have a fundamental disagreement over the save itself existing. I think that they are at a place where points can keep them where they need to be, as it stands, I can field 40-50 bodies in a current, sensible Custodes list, 30-40 feels more sensible and fluffy, they are SUPPOSED to be elite, highly limited and individually excellent, not cheap, disposable and creeping towards 100 body armies
Thousand sons are shoehorned into the same play style and lists every time, because we don't have any consistent non psychic anti tank, so we have to build a certain way I honestly feel like this is why we see the same MSU rubric build template in all top lists as it's the only way to get efficient anti armour As a bi product of our small number of unit choices, expensive core units and characters, we are pretty limited on what we even can field for other roles Aside from enlightened for secondaries, we don't have any durable cost efficient backfield objective holders and our cheapest chaff isn't especially cheap either We don't have any standout melee unit that isn't a character or too overpriced for the role, and we don't even have access to lone operatives through allies now
@@rellikskuppin7417 I wouldn't say they suck, but they are quite overrated by anyone who doesn't play or know the finer details of k sons as you can only get powers off early on due to needing you units alive for enough points Taking away armour saves once a round sounds really powerful, but in the context of needing to build your entire army around it with no other alternatives for anti armour it almost becomes necessary
@ilicktrains8304 Have you ever thought of running the daemon prince w/wings because his Aetherstride ability makes it so you do not get his CBP while he is in reserves? I know how to play T sons. Chill. I know what I am saying, but thank you. For everybody else I can clarify. CBP sucks ass because every X unit (forgefiends) doesn't give CBP removing those cool abilities you explained. Part of Magnus's value is the 4CBP. Everyone's points get tied into them as well. Making balancing T sons internally suck ass. I play a magic faction because magic is cool. Thanks for explaining that to me in a way like I did not understand how to play. 💪🔥
@ilicktrains8304 maybe we would take some lascannon predators if they gave CBP idk in CSM they are a valuable trade peace right now but 5+ lethal or sustains help them out. Hmm almost like every CSM list is moving towards vehicle heavy. 1-3 vindicators, 1-2 predator destructor, Warpsmiths. Guess what? That will NEVER be T sons until CBP is removed. There you go.
@@rellikskuppin7417 I misunderstood what you mean by they suck ass, I thought you meant that they were a weak mechanic not that they were bad for enjoyment, but yeah I agree now. Btw I wasn't trying to say you don't know how to play them, just that you were being a bit harsh, though now that you clarified what you meant, I fully agree they are too limiting and make our faction dry asf
Agree with the need for a slight Pts change to the SOT (and maybe the Lord too) - but well proabably get a Rubric Pt increase instead >< And for me the Forge Fiends are near auto-includes, especially if using mass flamers on the rubrics Overall - excellent video, I have been looking foward to it coming!
If Rubrics go up, the win rate will tank. The winrate at tournament is about 50%, but publicly available casual numbers place TSons closer to 40% already. The faction cannot withstand another nerf. SOTs, Daemon Prince, Tzaangors, Cultists, Predators, and Helbrutes need a cost decrease. Infernal Masters and Tzaangor Enlightened should probably go up 5 points.
I hate the fact special characters seem to be essential to so many lists these days. Apparently no warband of Thousand Sons, Death Guard or World Eaters ever leaves house without their Primarch - WTF?
I think the big named characters should normally be over-costed for what they do. They should be strong, but expensive, and there for flavor more than crushing opponents. But sadly making them strong in all lists helps sell them.
GW needs to hire proper data analysts to help them out. For 3 editions now they've shown that having data and knowing how to apply it are not the same.
TSons are my favorite army and the thing I played the most in 9th. I’m having a hard time bringing them now in 10th with 90% of their flavor stripped from them so it’s just one playstyle and one playstyle only
That’s where I currently sit with my tsons. It feels… hollow ((pun unintended but more approved)) to play them as they are right now. No synergy for Tzaangor, lost their Tzeentch daemons unless you burn points that SOTs could use instead, and just caring about optimal cabal point generation ovwr much else feels awkward. I’d rather get stomped ((also unintended)) by playing my Chaos Gods 4-CK list
@@AtiredproblemI really want to build a CK army but I’ve been stuck with never getting any war dogs. I don’t want to spam them, just 2 boxes would be enough for me. Play a mixed arms list. What I loved about TSons was unique ways to solve the problem with loads of spells and not just always the same. It helped make the limited roster feel so much better. Also, before the first nerf dataslate the points were low enough I could kinda work around it by bringing some vehicles for fun and anti-tank work since they now struggle against tanks
Honestly the fact that every single list has Magnus is a big example of the issue with Tsons in this edition. We've gone from the useless primarch, to our entire army hinging on using Magnus and you basically actively handicapping yourself if you don't bring him. Which is the same issue with World eaters too. It really restricts listbuilding and creativity, and generally no army should hinge so hard on a single model.
Considering he has already been nerfed I feel like they should buff other units such as Scarab or Monsters. Or maybe giving us some new unit with traits we are currently lacking (lone operatives for example)
Or, it's because you guys have like 5 different units and you're stunted without general Chaos options. Probably not even a joke you have Tzangs, Rubrics, SO Terms, Magnus, Exalted Sorcs and Infernal Masters. You're gonna have an auto incude unit every edition when you have that few options lmao
I play World eaters, I kinda like Angron being an auto-include. It's so thematic. But yes, it does restrict list-building a little. Tbf though, some people have had success without Angron, it's just easier to play with him that without him.
I always think they should have run Named Characters similar to back in Warhammer Fantasy Battles where they were generally very strong but intentionally overcosted. You could choose to play them for nice thematic armies, especially in larger games but they were not must takes for competitive purposes. Pay extra for the style and flavour,
Heck yeah. My friend is the guy who won the tournament, and I called it that you'd make a video about it. Funny listening to you pronounce his last name, but a great video as always
Like other TSons player, 10th feels weird right now Unfortunately we are plagued by our Army Rule that forces us into minmaxing Cabal points, where in 9th it was an additionnal bonus to spells Not only this, but in 9th while our unit choices were limited, we : 1) indeed had more opportunity to field demons and Tzaangors 2) the list building felt way less boring and limited because of all the spells that were compensating the limited unit choices No new models, losing psychic powers and having our army rule entirely tailored around a gimmick, very cool one in terms of lore of course but also very limiting on the table, really make 10th TS kinda boring to play imho Even if we take the Hellbrute for instance where they try to tie it into the CP rule, the model in itself and his rule of regenerating 1CP is hardly worth it I really feel like TSons (along with WE) are among the first faction that need a codex, just so they can hopefully get an updated army rule (even if there's close to 0 chance it'll happen) but mostly new models to increase the choices we have I honestly feel like the Cult of Magic detachement should be the army rule. Only affects psy, can change it slightly for balance, add a bit more psychic keyword on weapons, including vehicles on a few selected weapons to give us more ways to deal with vehicles and big models without relying on CP And the CP and their rituals should be detachements, themed around Cult(s) or set of units : - Magic for raw power - Time for durability - Knowledge and Prophecy for buff / debuff - Mutation and Change for "creatures" Muta, Tzaangors, Spawn, Daemon Prince - Scheming, Duplicity and Manipulation for various tricks Maybe have 2 generic rituals always present and 3 themed changing based on the detachment Basically kinda the 9 cults packed together to sort of fit the 5 pre HH cults and give us our 5 detachments ; even with a shared gimmick, the theme would be different enough so that it'd feel different and at the same time look like a set of spells you chose It would be a good compromise between 9th and 10th, feel more like we're generally tailored around psychic with the Army Rule, and chosing a set of spells as specialisation with the detachments
@cIntyre Yes in theory ; in practice there's a sizeable chance it won't be the case, unless the new models shake things up a lot by themselves Our army rule relies entirely on a list specific building If a detachment is strong enough to make us abandon our army rule, there's a big design issue Let's say one of the detachment is tailored around SoT, if building around that we'll be dropping quite a lot of CP and/or board control given the SoT cost and the almost mandatory Leader that has to be with them Same thing applies with a "Tzaangor detachment" (unless it boosts the CP provided by Shaman) And so on It can be seen with all the codexes out there for armies with bigger range and less restrictive army rules in list building, detachments that tries to play into specific units are very mixed Case in point : Necrons, only 2 detachments are actually worth, and their army rule works on pretty much everything for their whole range Makes the same with a much limited range like TS and a more restrictive army rule where ~35% of the range doesn't play into it, the detachments will have to be very, very good for it to be actually worth playing heavily into VS army rule (removing save and doombolt are very strong) Perhaps I'm wrong though, but it's kinda worysome I think given our current army rule
The one I’m building is this: Magnus the Red Ahriman on disk 2x10 Rubric Marines 1x5 Scarab Terminators 3x Mutalith Vortex Beast 2x Forgefiend The team gets significantly weaker if you start losing Cabal Points, so the ideal is to use the Mutaliths as the front line and Forgefiends as the big damage dealers. Rubrics are flex units to counter deep strike against the forgefiends, and the terminators are an additional flex unit. This is the idea anyways, definitely a more heavy unit centric team.
@skavid-lq9ez no, but actually, Tzaangors are free, just buy a combat patrol, and say to gw that your sprues are broken, they will send you any Tzaangors they had left en the inventory (roughly around 200) and they will not ask how many you want, they will just send those bad boys and never call you back.
@@MorphicGalaxy I see the Troops issue for sure, despite having good/useful Troops. I'd trade my Havocs for your 135 pts foregfiend any day of the week I think. They are merely ok. I don't think I've seen them in any competitive list yjay has gotten some traction yet, or any at all that I can recall.
If they kept Scarab Occult Terminators at 43PPM but made their sorcerer sergeant generate two cabal points instead of 1, I bet you'd see a lot more of them. That's their real issue - that 1 10x terminator squad (the best way to run them) is gonna give you 1 CaP for 440 points when 4 5x rubric squads (a great way to run them) would give you 4 CaP for 420 points, and TSons run on CaP.
@maxchapuis6256 moderate the lethal hits helps and since sorceror led units can't be shot outside of 18 inches it makes more sense to me to have a unit that can shoot at 24 rather than 12 inches
@@maxchapuis6256 I primarily have them with my infernal master to make use of the sustained hits and have them tag along with magnus. I make liberal use of the ensorcelled infusion and devastating sorcery combo on both magnus and the squad.
Even after watching games and looking at lists I cannot understand this army and get tabled almost every time I play it. Especially tzaangor, they make no sense to me whatsoever lol
I've recently found success by waiting in my deployment zone until my opponent hits objectives. Then the rubrics go to work and +1 wound everything. You go behind early, but get scary in the mid game. 36" double doombolt from the MVB will make your opponent think carefully before going outside, especially if you stick him towards the middle of the board. The easy mode way to get used to this is castling SOB around magnus' feet and spamming psychic bolter rounds down range while your rubrics pick off early objective takers. That is a _a lot of dice_ with +1 hit and +1 wound on those terminators. Temporal surge into rapid fire range and you will put your opponents army back in the box pretty quickly. TLDR - lean on magnus' aura, exploit rubric's wound rerolls, get your doombolts off every turn.
@@AngusMcIntyre staying in deployment is definitely going to be my strategy next time, thanks! Do you find the MVB’s themselves to last be useful outside of doubling cabal range? They never really do anything else for me, as they typically get gunned down quickly if I try to get them in their 24 inch range. Getting their hostile aura in range feels like a pipe-dream most of the time too.
@@DubiousElixir if it's soaking fire instead of Magnus then you are laughing. Ideally you use it to alpha some expensive models on turn 1 at the very least. Don't be afraid to reroll it's attack and get some damage out
depends on your list, i usually jump at the center of the table with my whole army and it works if you can focus the right targets with combos, but ok xD 11 Terminators is mandatory to do that ofc.
@@AngusMcIntyre Mutalith is also good, but usually i dont need its one-shot ray of death and instead i always need lots of dmg versus hordes and elites (forgefiend has 3 weapons so its 6+3d3 hits vs a normal 10-men unit, much bigger volume than Mutalith at AP-3 DMG3). And if they field a big knight/crisis mob/something big and shooty, you can use 1 weapon to shoot there and debuff them with -1 hit, then focus the rest on the real target. Last thing, they keep my obj safe, while mutalith has to advance or you're wasting its melee power.
I watched the last 2 matches. It’s important to note than he can double the range of doom bolt and snipe lone operatives with it.
Double-Double moving Magnus was a common trick too.
@@Robotech2049 Is it legit to do 2 temporal surge on the same unit ? For example, this way, a mutalith moves to 30" ? I see nothing in the rules that contradicts it.
Not anymore lol
@@ragewinninethousand4140 right, thank goodness
I was playing vs knights last friday and my standard sorcerer with arcane vortex killed canis rex in 1 shooting phase with re rolling hits/wounds stratagem and plus 1 to wound from magnus. I also spiked the roll for attacks and landed 22/25 attacks, 9 of them being devasting wounds from the one model alone and he hit so many 1s and 2s on the save roll that the sorcerer did 26 wounds and we down went canis. My opponent was so mindblown he forgot to disembark sir hektur 😂
I had a similar damage spike against a Tyrannofex, 1 Sorcerer with arcane vortex spiked the sustained hits extremely hard. 12 hits turned into 34 and 12 of them were devastating wounds and he still had to make 18 saving throws but it was dead to dev wounds either way. My friend never looks at sorcerers the same way ever again 😂
Thousand Sons video let’s go!
It's worth noting that the change to custodes is a nerf to ksons trying to fight them. Our way to get around tanky stuff like custodes is mortal and dev wounds, now that custodes get the FNP against dev wounds again, going into custodes as ksons can sting quite a bit.
That’s why rubrics with flamers are essential
The Custodes changes were right...the points changes probably weren't, and they'll be fixed, but Custodes were all but unplayable without the dev wounds protection. I think you'll see wardens, allarus and maybe a couple characters go up,.should essentially drop a 4-5 model unit and Custodes will be a 50ish win rate army with a win or two over a 90 day period between dataslates
No the custodes changes were not right. 4+ mitigation against everything army wide is just stupid and it is the primary reason why custodes have gone from zero to hero overnights. It should have been 5+, but frankly custodes have no place in the game for both lore and balancing reasons. Since they have been out GW has been unable to balance them.
Trust me even now custodes aren't happy to see tsons across the table
@@Internetbutthurt Your entire justification resides in a matter of degree, point is A save against dev wounds was necessary, sure, we can negotiate over whether a 4+ or 5+ is appropriate, but it seems we don't have a fundamental disagreement over the save itself existing. I think that they are at a place where points can keep them where they need to be, as it stands, I can field 40-50 bodies in a current, sensible Custodes list, 30-40 feels more sensible and fluffy, they are SUPPOSED to be elite, highly limited and individually excellent, not cheap, disposable and creeping towards 100 body armies
Thousand sons are shoehorned into the same play style and lists every time, because we don't have any consistent non psychic anti tank, so we have to build a certain way
I honestly feel like this is why we see the same MSU rubric build template in all top lists as it's the only way to get efficient anti armour
As a bi product of our small number of unit choices, expensive core units and characters, we are pretty limited on what we even can field for other roles
Aside from enlightened for secondaries, we don't have any durable cost efficient backfield objective holders and our cheapest chaff isn't especially cheap either
We don't have any standout melee unit that isn't a character or too overpriced for the role, and we don't even have access to lone operatives through allies now
Cabal points suck ass
@@rellikskuppin7417 I wouldn't say they suck, but they are quite overrated by anyone who doesn't play or know the finer details of k sons as you can only get powers off early on due to needing you units alive for enough points
Taking away armour saves once a round sounds really powerful, but in the context of needing to build your entire army around it with no other alternatives for anti armour it almost becomes necessary
@ilicktrains8304 Have you ever thought of running the daemon prince w/wings because his Aetherstride ability makes it so you do not get his CBP while he is in reserves? I know how to play T sons. Chill. I know what I am saying, but thank you. For everybody else I can clarify. CBP sucks ass because every X unit (forgefiends) doesn't give CBP removing those cool abilities you explained. Part of Magnus's value is the 4CBP. Everyone's points get tied into them as well. Making balancing T sons internally suck ass.
I play a magic faction because magic is cool. Thanks for explaining that to me in a way like I did not understand how to play. 💪🔥
@ilicktrains8304 maybe we would take some lascannon predators if they gave CBP idk in CSM they are a valuable trade peace right now but 5+ lethal or sustains help them out. Hmm almost like every CSM list is moving towards vehicle heavy. 1-3 vindicators, 1-2 predator destructor, Warpsmiths.
Guess what? That will NEVER be T sons until CBP is removed.
There you go.
@@rellikskuppin7417 I misunderstood what you mean by they suck ass, I thought you meant that they were a weak mechanic not that they were bad for enjoyment, but yeah I agree now.
Btw I wasn't trying to say you don't know how to play them, just that you were being a bit harsh, though now that you clarified what you meant, I fully agree they are too limiting and make our faction dry asf
Agree with the need for a slight Pts change to the SOT (and maybe the Lord too) - but well proabably get a Rubric Pt increase instead ><
And for me the Forge Fiends are near auto-includes, especially if using mass flamers on the rubrics
Overall - excellent video, I have been looking foward to it coming!
If Rubrics go up, the win rate will tank. The winrate at tournament is about 50%, but publicly available casual numbers place TSons closer to 40% already. The faction cannot withstand another nerf.
SOTs, Daemon Prince, Tzaangors, Cultists, Predators, and Helbrutes need a cost decrease. Infernal Masters and Tzaangor Enlightened should probably go up 5 points.
I hate the fact special characters seem to be essential to so many lists these days. Apparently no warband of Thousand Sons, Death Guard or World Eaters ever leaves house without their Primarch - WTF?
That's sad I agree.
I think the big named characters should normally be over-costed for what they do. They should be strong, but expensive, and there for flavor more than crushing opponents. But sadly making them strong in all lists helps sell them.
@@jukasides Magnus is a £90 model. Its pretty reasonable that he is also good on the table after the 9th Ed disaster
you want the cool unique expensive characters to be bad????
@@AngusMcIntyre There should at least be a choice in whether to take him or something else. At the moment there is no choice.
what is crazy to me is that he didnt pick up the icon of flame (maybe it wasnt listed) or the soulreaper cannons for each rubric squad.
GW needs to hire proper data analysts to help them out. For 3 editions now they've shown that having data and knowing how to apply it are not the same.
TSons are my favorite army and the thing I played the most in 9th. I’m having a hard time bringing them now in 10th with 90% of their flavor stripped from them so it’s just one playstyle and one playstyle only
That’s where I currently sit with my tsons. It feels… hollow ((pun unintended but more approved)) to play them as they are right now. No synergy for Tzaangor, lost their Tzeentch daemons unless you burn points that SOTs could use instead, and just caring about optimal cabal point generation ovwr much else feels awkward. I’d rather get stomped ((also unintended)) by playing my Chaos Gods 4-CK list
@@AtiredproblemI really want to build a CK army but I’ve been stuck with never getting any war dogs. I don’t want to spam them, just 2 boxes would be enough for me. Play a mixed arms list.
What I loved about TSons was unique ways to solve the problem with loads of spells and not just always the same. It helped make the limited roster feel so much better. Also, before the first nerf dataslate the points were low enough I could kinda work around it by bringing some vehicles for fun and anti-tank work since they now struggle against tanks
Honestly the fact that every single list has Magnus is a big example of the issue with Tsons in this edition. We've gone from the useless primarch, to our entire army hinging on using Magnus and you basically actively handicapping yourself if you don't bring him. Which is the same issue with World eaters too. It really restricts listbuilding and creativity, and generally no army should hinge so hard on a single model.
Considering he has already been nerfed I feel like they should buff other units such as Scarab or Monsters. Or maybe giving us some new unit with traits we are currently lacking (lone operatives for example)
Totally agree.
Or, it's because you guys have like 5 different units and you're stunted without general Chaos options.
Probably not even a joke you have Tzangs, Rubrics, SO Terms, Magnus, Exalted Sorcs and Infernal Masters.
You're gonna have an auto incude unit every edition when you have that few options lmao
I play World eaters, I kinda like Angron being an auto-include. It's so thematic. But yes, it does restrict list-building a little.
Tbf though, some people have had success without Angron, it's just easier to play with him that without him.
I always think they should have run Named Characters similar to back in Warhammer Fantasy Battles where they were generally very strong but intentionally overcosted. You could choose to play them for nice thematic armies, especially in larger games but they were not must takes for competitive purposes. Pay extra for the style and flavour,
Heck yeah. My friend is the guy who won the tournament, and I called it that you'd make a video about it. Funny listening to you pronounce his last name, but a great video as always
any chance i could get in touch with him? Im a fervent player of tsons
Like other TSons player, 10th feels weird right now
Unfortunately we are plagued by our Army Rule that forces us into minmaxing Cabal points, where in 9th it was an additionnal bonus to spells
Not only this, but in 9th while our unit choices were limited, we :
1) indeed had more opportunity to field demons and Tzaangors
2) the list building felt way less boring and limited because of all the spells that were compensating the limited unit choices
No new models, losing psychic powers and having our army rule entirely tailored around a gimmick, very cool one in terms of lore of course but also very limiting on the table, really make 10th TS kinda boring to play imho
Even if we take the Hellbrute for instance where they try to tie it into the CP rule, the model in itself and his rule of regenerating 1CP is hardly worth it
I really feel like TSons (along with WE) are among the first faction that need a codex, just so they can hopefully get an updated army rule (even if there's close to 0 chance it'll happen) but mostly new models to increase the choices we have
I honestly feel like the Cult of Magic detachement should be the army rule. Only affects psy, can change it slightly for balance, add a bit more psychic keyword on weapons, including vehicles on a few selected weapons to give us more ways to deal with vehicles and big models without relying on CP
And the CP and their rituals should be detachements, themed around Cult(s) or set of units :
- Magic for raw power
- Time for durability
- Knowledge and Prophecy for buff / debuff
- Mutation and Change for "creatures" Muta, Tzaangors, Spawn, Daemon Prince
- Scheming, Duplicity and Manipulation for various tricks
Maybe have 2 generic rituals always present and 3 themed changing based on the detachment
Basically kinda the 9 cults packed together to sort of fit the 5 pre HH cults and give us our 5 detachments ; even with a shared gimmick, the theme would be different enough so that it'd feel different and at the same time look like a set of spells you chose
It would be a good compromise between 9th and 10th, feel more like we're generally tailored around psychic with the Army Rule, and chosing a set of spells as specialisation with the detachments
Detachments are clearly going to shake up army building. That is the point of them.
@cIntyre Yes in theory ; in practice there's a sizeable chance it won't be the case, unless the new models shake things up a lot by themselves
Our army rule relies entirely on a list specific building
If a detachment is strong enough to make us abandon our army rule, there's a big design issue
Let's say one of the detachment is tailored around SoT, if building around that we'll be dropping quite a lot of CP and/or board control given the SoT cost and the almost mandatory Leader that has to be with them
Same thing applies with a "Tzaangor detachment" (unless it boosts the CP provided by Shaman)
And so on
It can be seen with all the codexes out there for armies with bigger range and less restrictive army rules in list building, detachments that tries to play into specific units are very mixed
Case in point : Necrons, only 2 detachments are actually worth, and their army rule works on pretty much everything for their whole range
Makes the same with a much limited range like TS and a more restrictive army rule where ~35% of the range doesn't play into it, the detachments will have to be very, very good for it to be actually worth playing heavily into VS army rule (removing save and doombolt are very strong)
Perhaps I'm wrong though, but it's kinda worysome I think given our current army rule
The one I’m building is this:
Magnus the Red
Ahriman on disk
2x10 Rubric Marines
1x5 Scarab Terminators
3x Mutalith Vortex Beast
2x Forgefiend
The team gets significantly weaker if you start losing Cabal Points, so the ideal is to use the Mutaliths as the front line and Forgefiends as the big damage dealers. Rubrics are flex units to counter deep strike against the forgefiends, and the terminators are an additional flex unit. This is the idea anyways, definitely a more heavy unit centric team.
It would be nice if Defilers, predators or heldrakes were worth a crap
Before the dataslate that hit all of our cabal generating units I was having good luck with a vindicator coming along for more anti tank.
Tsons Lets Goooooooo
Just put a shaman and 300 Tzaangors, now you have the best list that Wh40k fans will ever see.
Luckily, 300 Tzaangors come in the average TSons combo box, right?
@skavid-lq9ez no, but actually, Tzaangors are free, just buy a combat patrol, and say to gw that your sprues are broken, they will send you any Tzaangors they had left en the inventory (roughly around 200) and they will not ask how many you want, they will just send those bad boys and never call you back.
@@arathdejesusescobarromero4904 This is BS I've emailed GW like 5 times about my missing tzaangor sprue from the AoS box set and they won't cough up
THOUSAND SONS BABYY!!
I feel like a 5 point decrease on ever named character would have helped tremendously in making lists a bit different
Is it Firefox logo ?
LET'S GOOO DUSTY BOIS
Yeaaaahhhhh
Can't believe I just noticed the thousand sons symbol looks just like the Firefox symbol
As a CSM player, I think I'd actually have preferred having the TS Forgefiend at 135 pts (or 2 for 270 pts) to the CSM one at 200 pts.
And as a TSons player, I’d love to have… more than one Troop option. Can I trade your Havocs for our Forgefiend?
@@MorphicGalaxy I see the Troops issue for sure, despite having good/useful Troops. I'd trade my Havocs for your 135 pts foregfiend any day of the week I think. They are merely ok. I don't think I've seen them in any competitive list yjay has gotten some traction yet, or any at all that I can recall.
Scarab occult are pointed proper equal to grey knights paladins but better guns from that sheet
I'm a loyalist die-hard but if I ever did Chaos, it would the Thousand Sons hands down.
I really fail at playing them. It just feels like my list is half the points as my opponent's. Usually I get tabled by turn 4 :D.
If they kept Scarab Occult Terminators at 43PPM but made their sorcerer sergeant generate two cabal points instead of 1, I bet you'd see a lot more of them.
That's their real issue - that 1 10x terminator squad (the best way to run them) is gonna give you 1 CaP for 440 points when 4 5x rubric squads (a great way to run them) would give you 4 CaP for 420 points, and TSons run on CaP.
What do people think about last list more or less but daemon prince for MVB? I like the idea of his buffs on scarabs
Demon prince on foot is a great option
I guess I'm in the minority here for liking 10 man bolter squads rather than 10 man flamers 😅
How are you using them ? Personnally I prefer flamers, but I'm curious.
I use both. Prefer bolters with a sorceror on my back objective
@@dairewoods2544 seems good. What about the damage input you make with this unit ?
@maxchapuis6256 moderate the lethal hits helps and since sorceror led units can't be shot outside of 18 inches it makes more sense to me to have a unit that can shoot at 24 rather than 12 inches
@@maxchapuis6256 I primarily have them with my infernal master to make use of the sustained hits and have them tag along with magnus. I make liberal use of the ensorcelled infusion and devastating sorcery combo on both magnus and the squad.
Next death guard please!! 🤩
Am I really overestimating the power of getting two save re-rolls every fight and shooting phase four five Kabal points with the helbruite refund?
Even after watching games and looking at lists I cannot understand this army and get tabled almost every time I play it. Especially tzaangor, they make no sense to me whatsoever lol
I've recently found success by waiting in my deployment zone until my opponent hits objectives. Then the rubrics go to work and +1 wound everything. You go behind early, but get scary in the mid game. 36" double doombolt from the MVB will make your opponent think carefully before going outside, especially if you stick him towards the middle of the board. The easy mode way to get used to this is castling SOB around magnus' feet and spamming psychic bolter rounds down range while your rubrics pick off early objective takers. That is a _a lot of dice_ with +1 hit and +1 wound on those terminators. Temporal surge into rapid fire range and you will put your opponents army back in the box pretty quickly. TLDR - lean on magnus' aura, exploit rubric's wound rerolls, get your doombolts off every turn.
@@AngusMcIntyre staying in deployment is definitely going to be my strategy next time, thanks! Do you find the MVB’s themselves to last be useful outside of doubling cabal range? They never really do anything else for me, as they typically get gunned down quickly if I try to get them in their 24 inch range. Getting their hostile aura in range feels like a pipe-dream most of the time too.
@@DubiousElixir if it's soaking fire instead of Magnus then you are laughing. Ideally you use it to alpha some expensive models on turn 1 at the very least. Don't be afraid to reroll it's attack and get some damage out
depends on your list, i usually jump at the center of the table with my whole army and it works if you can focus the right targets with combos, but ok xD
11 Terminators is mandatory to do that ofc.
Hi, pls make a tier list of drukhari models!
I always use 2 Forgefiends 🎉🎉
I'd struggled to invest in those models (especially now my MVB arrived). Whats makes them auto-includes for you?
@@AngusMcIntyre Mutalith is also good, but usually i dont need its one-shot ray of death and instead i always need lots of dmg versus hordes and elites (forgefiend has 3 weapons so its 6+3d3 hits vs a normal 10-men unit, much bigger volume than Mutalith at AP-3 DMG3). And if they field a big knight/crisis mob/something big and shooty, you can use 1 weapon to shoot there and debuff them with -1 hit, then focus the rest on the real target. Last thing, they keep my obj safe, while mutalith has to advance or you're wasting its melee power.
Why are SOTs absent ?
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The winds of change have shifted, blessed be Tzeentchs.
rip no SOC termies
Yes there is, on the list at the end.
Every chaos primarch is auto include and every loyalist primarch belongs to the shelve. Pretty sad.
top 5 comments?
what language do you speak. jeez