I love that when the emperor is telling you to trust him, he LITERALLY lists all the ways he tried to manipulate you. Like he does not appeal to emotion like a human, he is thinking like an illithid going "Look how many trust coins I gave you, it is so illogical for you to not trust me"
@@christhopercaballero6829 True but one thing does not exclude the other! He still manipulates you, and in a way he can't help it he's a mind flayer. He is definitely NOT balduran, for a number of reasons but also he nonchalantly tells you he "only feeds on criminals" as if that's a huge point in his favor, while in the trial to get to Ansur, the real Balduran('s memory) rewards you for dealing with an hypothetical criminal with 10 days in jail with warm meals.
@@myky992 So the whole bit about the dragon's spirit recognizing him to be Balduran and talking with him about their past is all just ... an illusion? What the trial states is the idea of how justice should work. And even though Balduran apparently "recorded" those messages, that doesn't mean he would've followed his own teachings/rules to the letter all of the time. As a human, he was flawed because being flawed and fallible is in our nature. And after his transformation, he was a Mindflayer, whose nature it is to consume people's brains.
He also tells you to trust him after essentially lying and deceiving you the entire game. Even when you think he’s revealed his real secret you find out he’s hiding even more bullshit.
To be fair, and he explains that, no one would even let him speak if he had walked in as a mind flayer. That being said, he only revealed himself because he was forced to.
@@uchiwalaumdilala Also, he withheld the truth on literally numerous occasions. He could've told us about Orpheus, and how he was protecting us. And all of that other stuff that was damn important for us to know.
Ehh, it can be argued that YOU created him/it/her to look that way. He arrived in your dreams as a blank slate as just thought, your subconscious filled in the blanks of what that "voice" looked like.
Uhhhh.. He is definitely evil. He literally controlled the mind of Stelmaine and used her for her own gain.. When approached by a friend that could bring back his prior body.. he denied him then killed him in his sleep.
Freedom can only be enjoyed if you are alive to enjoy it. If he joins the brain, there is a chance he will live long enough to break free of its control again
Emperor: I love freedom way too much to ever join the netherbrain, I hate being a slave to the hivemind Also Emperor: I can't believe you just broke up with me, time to be a slave to the hivemind again gg bye
@@kerrynator Well he had the choice to at least talk it out with Orpheus before leaving, he says it’s guaranteed that Orpheus will attack and subduing him would involve killing him. But he doesn’t, Orpheus is fairly reasonable and could have likely worked something out with the emperor, even if just short term, I assume having a foreseeable free future with potential for more, is still better then just submitting yourself to be a slave to the nether brain. But sure, pitch a fit and leave cause you don’t trust the angry alien you’ve never talked to before, having sucked the power from, and planning to eat the brain of instead, that works too.
@@insaneyoohoowith all the abuse that the emperor has done to Orpheus, i can't see both of them working together. After all, being a mind flayer was *his* choice, even killing his own *friend* on his path.
Emperor: I know I repeatedly lied to you, obscures the truth at every opportunity, literaly catfished you 2/3 of the game, possibly have romantic relationship with you and I do not even reveal my real real identity to you unless you find out, but you HAVE TO trust me and my plan. Tav: So I thinkI can persuade Orpheus to join us againts Netherbrain. Emperor: What? You want ME to trust YOU? Are you nutts? No way, I am giving up my freedom and joining enemy faction.
That’a exactly it, also I didnt catfish myself, I sort of figured some shit was up at the start because there always is with those “I’m mysterious” motherfuckers but the intent is that he was actively trying to deceive you with his appearance
Another tell is that re-joining the Netherbrain was his 'failsafe'. He escaped once he may well again. Also, I never completely bought the idea that he was completely free of it's influence. For all we know, he's been a puppet of the Netherbrain in order to get its tentacles on the Netherstones by an alternate means.
It is a fun game, but after arriving at Baldurs Gate the story becomes kinda weak :( They should team up with Obsidian for the next game. It'd be the greatest RPG ever
I really wish there was a charisma option or something to convince the emperor to give it one chance and allow Orpheus to be freed, it feels a bit unbecoming of his character to just decide to be with the netherbrain after all this effort to destroy it
@@Birbucifer are you sure there isn't a way to progress the game in this way? I tried killing the mindflayer before (emperor) and.. well.. it was an instant game over. So idk
Act 3 of the game was cut in half. The game should've been delayed at least half a year, if not more, but they didn't. They instead released it a month earlier to one-up major releases in September.
@@LecherousLizarddud its a 100h game with insane replayability value. Like give them a break lol. They may have seen to big. Thats is more likely to be the problem
The Emperor betraying you, Baldur's Gate and the entirety of Faerun the moment he thought the Netherbrain was the winning side confirmed every single suspicion I had about him from the very start.
i thought it was obviously a mage that was imprisoned inside the artifact quite quickly. I didnt think it was a mindflayer. I thought the mage went in either voluntarily, or involuntarily, to keep an evil power contained within, the evil power was placed within the object in order to get it from one realm into another. But its not clear why the prince has so much power, and how the artifact was taken from the queen.
He is a person that puts his life above others. It has been shown in the game. Many people believe death is better then being an illithid which to balduran isn't true he would rather live. His dragon friend his mercy was to kill him but balduran didn't want to die. Even to illithids balduran is the opposite of them culturally or least the general populace not the higher ups. The general society of illithids want to be united in consciousness which is what they believe happens when join elder brains. But the brains and high power illithids know that they don't retain consciousness and just take their knowledge. Illithids don't necessarily lose themselves when they turn as some retain themselves more and are less susceptible to mind control which is why they avoid gnomes. The brains need easily controlled people we see this in game with the cultists. With balduran wanting to live being his big thing even if it means hurting others joining the brain does make sense since to him defeating the brain if wasn't working together couldn't work. Most likely thought that he could free himself sometime in the future from the mind control. Orpheus isn't nice either if he doesn't have a need for you like shown in this vid he doesn't help you. If you freed him earlier he let's you turn. He only works with you here because he needs an illithid to defeat the brain. Both of them aren't some altruistic people. So he is a person that puts his life above others. He has had people say he should die then live for long time. Even the gods in this world are selfish which gale points out that they have the power to stop all this suffering but don't
He rallied with us so that he can keep his freedom, the moment we betray that he rather join the Netherbrain if it means still being alive and all. Atleast if the Netherbrain were to die to Orpheus he will be able to slip through the shadows again and enjoy the Githyanki civil war on the side.
The two I wanted were nightsong and my guardian before emperor. Needless to say they both let me down and I let my original waifu die for nightsong too.
"Emperor claims his greatest desire is freedom and independence" That's too funny and very Sith response. Its funny because the voice of the Illiad Emperor is the same voice of the Sith Emperor in SWTOR. Me thinks the designers of BG3 are SWTOR fans.
They think they need someone to sacrifice themself to become a mindflayer and everyone collectively forgets Omeluum is just chilling at the Society of Brilliance lodge 😂
Orpheus seems to be pretty reasonable. The Emperor thought that he would immediately become hostile, but he didn't. He's willing to work with you against the greater threat. It doesn't make much sense for the Emperor to go to the Netherbrain. Even if Orpheus holds the grudge, his first priority after defeating the Netherbrain will be to free the Githyanki from Vlaakith, and that won't happen in a day. It'll be a civil war that would last decades, maybe centuries. You'll probably be dead of old age by then.
@@bessieburnet9816 It's ironic but both of these leaders could have been allies. They are both surprisingly reasonable for their arrogant and violent species.
When you try to save the Prince earlier by killing the Emperor, Orpheus do not shield you from the absolute and let you turn into Mindflayer(gameover). I guess since he did not need you at that point he let you turn and die at the hands of his guards. Let me remind you he let his saviors not only from the Mindflayer Emperor but also from his imprisonment of Giths' Queen, to turn. So i guess Orpheus is in a mindset that he don't really care about anyone unless he can use those for his own objectives. Still i also think instead of Emperor's leave, we should have an option to use Emperor against the Brain. But i guess bad-writing WANTS you to sacrifice someone to turn Mindflayer cause it is more dramatic...
What I find interesting is that if you go mind flayer, reject The Emperor, and then free Orpheus, you can just prove to him that you are your own person, that doesn’t obey an elder brain, and that’s not only enough for him to ally with you, but he even waxes poetic about how you and he are like the original Renegade Mindflayer and Gith that fought back against the Grand Design. The game just didn’t want you to be able to work with both sides here I guess
After the battle with Gortash, I took a key from his body and searched the premises and found a register of an interrogation conducted by one of his blackhands. The interrogated was a member of the team that guarded Duke Stelmane (the Emperor's former partner), and he mentioned finding out that she was eating brains and when she arrived in the room, he saw for a moment a form with tentacles and after that, he couldn't remember. And in the emperor's old bunker, tou can find notes of Duke Stelmane where she says that her mind is foggy lately, causing headaches and confusion when she tries to think too much about it. With these evidences, one can conclude that She was not the Emperor"s "partner", but his puppet. I never trusted him, even in the form of dream visitor. I think the best ending is releasing Orpheus, who, contrary of the Emperor "advises", shown to be a straightforward ally and a reasonable person, even after you slaughtered his honor's guard and stole the egg from the creche. I only didn't want Karlach to have to sacrifice herself.
In the scene, where the Emperor comes to you in your dreams without a shirt, you can choose dialogue options that seem to piss him off and he shows telepathically the truth behind his "partnership" with Duke Stelmane. It's the same cutscene where he recounts their great friendship but from a viewpoint of the Duke being under his control. He then proceeds to berate you for distrusting him and calls you a puppet in his game. So yeah, he's one rotten apple lol
Wanted to point out that those notes in the Emperor's place were written by the doctor. It's the doctor complaining of foggy memory and not being able to remember the visitor, not Duke Stelmane, and that's because the Emperor is making them forget that he's a mind flayer.
Release Orpheus early, you will see he isn't reasonable at all as he lets you get consumed by the parasite. All this cutscenes does is show that he has no other choice but to use you in the same way the Emperor was.
The Emperor is concerned with himself. He's not inherently evil, but Orpheus would never in a million years forgive him for trapping him and exploiting his powers. The only reason he doesn't kill the entire party of the MC is because they were pieces in the game of chess and not the perpetrators. If you did the bronze dragon questline, Emperor/Balduran would rather kill his best friend Ansur than to die by his hands; he very much values his life.
The way I see it is once he can’t channel Orpheus’s power through the artifact anymore he loses all power in the relationship, and that’s the main thing he’s against
"I have not lied to you, not once" Well I guess the emperor doesnt know how to count then because i can track down about 10 lies throughout the entire playthrough.
It’s too bad you can’t get a hold of Omeluum in anyway just so no one has to make the sacrifice of becoming a mind flayer would definitely give you more incentive to save them from the iron throne
He was probably mind controlled at this time unfortunately. Yeah he has his ring but I doubt that saves him from the full force of a netherbrain mere blocks away.
@@theangrypotato2.031 I don’t know. He probably had some safe measures in place for that situation. I just think it would’ve been a nice substitute that would have its own consequences like while you’re searching and battling your way through boulders gate looking for him you’re wasting valuable time while innocence are dying a type of you saved your companions and yourself but at what costs ending
Honestly? Yes. There’s a reason Orpheus BEGS you to kill him if he becomes a mind flayer. He knows that eventually he will lose himself like the Emperor did.
Even after vibing with the Emperor the whole game, Orpheus just makes more sense. Plus the Emperor got really greedy after going Illithid, didn’t trust him after finding the dragon
This path is very conflicting to me, cause I think that honestly if we just talked it out between them we could’ve formed a temporary alliance of some sort between the Prince and The Emperor. I don’t 100% trust Emperor, but I do believe that he is on your side. Whether it is for self preservation or not, doesn’t matter to me as long as he kept his word. I think after everything that happens in the game, siding with Orpheus, whom you’ve never spoken to before is a crazy decision. I was STRESSING during this scene in my play through.
the main problem with trusting the emporer.. is that while hes on your side for now while a greater threat is active... once that threat is dealt with... he is still a mindflayer and still eats peoples brains...
@@arcanumelite4853 That;s a fair point, but honestly if they're all criminals and others of the sort I can look past it, probably not the most morally sound opinion, but it is just a game
@@arcanumelite4853Eating criminal brains is no different than shoving cold steel into a criminals heart. You're snuffing their life either way. The issue I have with The Emperor is the constant withholding of information. The Mind Flayer bit makes sense. Information on who he was before the tadpole, not so much and every worse is the hidden information you can find throughout Act 3.
@@emotionalnpc There are a lot more crimes unworthy of a death sentence than ones that justify such a fate, and plenty more circumstances of those crimes that would make such a punishment barbaric. There's absolutely no reason to believe Emperor would ever consider such things if he found himself starving, regardless of the weird heel turn to the Netherbrain at the end. I think the character of the Emperor is a fascinating one. A mind flayer with a sense of individuality, memories from a mortal life that it draws on to make sense of itself, but also uses it to rationalize its behavior and its own nature. It still manipulates, but rather than psychic domination it uses emotional pull and omission. I'm not even sure if the Emperor is aware that it's doing all these things, which really blurs the lines on what a mind flayer is truly capable of. I ultimately agree that preserving this nuance behind the Emperor, allowing to negotiate some kind of truce, would have left a lot of these fascinating questions looming over the story well past its end. I get why they went for this divisive wedge in the name of drama, but Larian clearly missed the long-standing drama for a short term "tough choice to make in a video game" trope. Rather unfortunate.
Holy heck the Emperor is absolutely being another Kethric. They both imprison someone else to leech the imprisoned person's power to extend their own life
For people who don't understand this situation: You cannot convince the Emperor because he is an illith. His brain quite literally works differently. He made his calculations and came to the conclusion Orpheus would never allow him to live (which is reasonable, the guy used to run Baldur's Gate before, he is a confirmed threat). He values his freedom, but to be free first he needs to be alive. There is a reasonable chance that he can do both if he has the Netherstones, but without it there is none, and with Orpheus free it's even worse. So since he can't live and be free, he can at least live in the hopes that one day another opportunity will rise. It's similar to what the Netherbrain did to gain access to the crown. The Emperor is not a good guy. He is just looking for his own ass, everyone else are useful allies. Tav can become closer, but he is still not humanoid and does not think like one. He is a control freak at heart and will throw a tantrum if you so much look into other options besides the ones he gives. He outright manipulates you and then uses the fact he was uncovered as a sign of trust. He would easily be a villain on another campaign were things slightly different. I do think the game needed more options at the end, though it's hard to fault Larian given the scope of everything prior. Still, this conflict with him is hardly out of character, and I can see this being more intentional than just a compromise.
And keep in mind, it's not that he made his calculations and can be reasoned with. He is always dead set and never asks YOUR opinion. Again, control freak. The only time in the game you can convince him is when he is tempted to become the Absolute, at which point it's a case where he has two possible paths and would naturally choose the one with the better survival rate, but Tava can weigh the balance towards domination - again, guy is a control freak of course he masturbates to the idea of becoming the Absolute.
It should be noted that, if the player sides with the Emperor, he does everything he promises and can even allow the player to be cured of the ithilid tadpoles with no strings attached (even if you for the most part don't follow his suggestions). He may be a self-righteous, survivalist prick who has a professional degree in gaslighting, but he does treat his allies well if they treat him well in turn as that's something he learned as a consequence of his mistake of enthralling his previous "partner" back when he was Balduran. He is 100% not a good guy...but he also isn't really the villain either. If anything, he's a narratively grander companion who, like all other companions, you can choose to help become better than the mess he's in or double down on his worse traits. It just really sucks that there's no option to point out that, despite how much he proudly states that he does not think like other Ithilids, having him so mechanically calculate Orpheus never willing to spare him is a very Ithilid thing to do since it's a decision with no hope behind it. Because the hilarious (if not tragically so) irony is that Orpheus is a lot more reasonable than the Emperor thinks.
@@joshuakim5240 "but he does treat his allies well if they treat him well" Not exactly. He very much was thinking about enthralling you as Absolute, he refrains from that because his chances of survival are slim. Turning on your after the Netherbrain goes down would be suicide, essentially. Your party quite literally did the impossible, he isn't going to mess with that - Mindflayers, matter of fact, are not so direct. With the Netherbrain gone, the Netherstones around and Orpheus' powers, he can just slip away and fade into the background, once again starting to control Baldur's Gate or his new territory. He constantly differentiates himself from other Mindflayers as means of trying to convince you to lower your guard. He is very much a mindflayer, thinks and acts like one. The Emperor is very much a villain, and the fact he does not turn on you with some villainous speech does not change that. Omeluum shows us that not all Mindflayers are evil. Emperor shows us that Omeluum is a rare exception, not the rule.
Nope you are wrong. The real reason why you cant convince the emperor is larian run out of time. If you have played the game you will notice that the some parts of act 3 feels weird its because its unfinished. Dont get me wrong its still a great game maybe one of the best games ever made and definitely goty but even larian know the fact that act 3 and the late story is unfinished.
He figured, that after being imprisoned for so long by the emperor, Orpheus would NOT be happy to see him after awakening. Did not want to take any risk, his entire character is a coward. Outside the prism he does not get the choice to flee from the elder brain, since the brain senses him and immediately takes control.
My hypothesis is that the Netherbrain has always been acting through The Emperor, whether he knows it or not. That's the thing with Illithids, even if they do retain parts of their past lives, these egos are often manipulated into thinking their actions are their own, when their goals ultimately serve the interests of the Netherbrain. That's what made The Emperor valuable, their own ego would allow them to believe they were free from influence so as to be a more convincing agent on their behalf. He was on the nautiloid, he infected us in the opening cinematic. While the Netherbrain was being controlled by the netherstones - he would be the catalyst to the Netherbrains escape. He only staves off the influence of those controlling the Netherbrain, once they're yours, he starts trying to get you to "evolve", pushing you to free the brain so you can "control it" When in reality, no one truly controls the Netherbrain, they just serve as the catalyst of it's will. the control is an illusion. still exploring the story bits, but these are how im reading the tea leaves as they fall
While this is an interesting hypothesis, there is one flaw in the fact that the Emperor isn't the one who infected you. In Act 1 you can find a Mind Flayer corpse in front of Dror Ragzlin, the Hobgoblin leader you can choose to kill along with Priestess Gut and Minthara. I used Speak with Dead on it and through the questions I asked, I learned that this corpse belonged to the Mind Flayer who infected the party
Your hypothesis is actually canon. You have to read a lot of letters/journals and stuff to get the full story but yes, literally everything the Emperor did was under the command of the netherbrain so it could free itself from the Dead Three and enact the grand design.
yet he still respected my Karlach enough to invite her to the party.. I like to think he also thinks fondly of Omeluum and Us. They may literally not have souls, but that doesn't make them less *people*. Kind of like asking if AI if fully developed to have autonomy, does it have a soul? Probably not, but the trade off is immortality. You can have eternity in the afterlife, or you can have eternity here. Those are the choices. @@nightcrawlr1035
It seem the Emperor's goal was just to stay alive. He killed his friend Ansur. He leaves you when he realizes you're the weaker side. He's just drive by survival instinct.
Considering the game gives you a chance to convince Lae'zel and Voss that you should still work together after Orpheus is killed, the fact that you're not given a chance to convince the Emperor when you wanted to save Orpheus is quite strange. He didn't even explain why he was left with "no other choice but to join the Netherbrain". His 180 degree turn is just out of nowhere imo Edit: there are many replies citing that the Emperor is not a truly good character so his final decision to return to the Netherbrain is not out of character for him. I disagree with this heavily because whether or not he's always been good morally is besides the point. If he backstabbed you in the end then those arguments of him not being a good person might have a point but that's not the problem that we're dealing with. The problem was that throughout, he's shown to want to defeat the Absolute so that he'd gain his own freedom. To suddenly made a decision to return to being a mindless slave goes against his main objective throughout the story. Whether he is a good person or not has no bearing to his main objective of being free from the Absolute's control. Edit 2: So there's also many arguments stating that he's choosing to side with the Netherbrain because that's a way for him to ensure his survival in the case of Orpheus being freed. Counterpoint, he's an illithid ie the one person capable of defeating the Netherbrain. He knows this, you know this, Orpheus knows this so the Emperor would only win if he stays. Enough said on that front.
He has no clue what happens when Orpheus is free, but he takes the bet that Orpheus will just kill him and you instead of teaming up against the Netherbrain. It's not entirely illogical -- Gith of both factions have illithids on their "kill on sight" radar. By leaving the protection, he's going to be a thrall to the brain, but at least he'd be a living thrall... which would again be the logical choice, except the entire game he talked up being free as the only choice. I really hope in the Enhanced Edition they address it. As is, it really does end the way so many tabletop campaigns do.
@@pellunderscore I absolutely understand that, the gith were said to be immortal enemies with the illithids which he is so him being adamant about Orpheus killing him on sight is quite valid. The thing that I'm quite miffed about was that he immediately 180 without giving you any further explanation and the game didn't even give the player a chance to convince him otherwise like with Lae'zel and Voss. His 180 was a whiplash to be honest. There could been a dialogue about how he always asked the player to trust him so now he should trust the player as well or how he has protected the player thus far so now the player will protect him in return should Orpheus threatens to kill him once he is freed. Something like that would've made his "betrayal" more bearable since if we failed to convince him then we know that we did try to convince him but there's none of that in the game.
@@rayclay3249 He's in Astral Plane, far away from brain's influence. He could just float away and lay low. Instead he chose guaranteed slavery. That's after the game establishes strongly he doesn't want to be a slave.
I was able to convince Orpheus to turn himself into a mindslayer and he ultimately won me the battles all the way till the end, so many different outcomes.
@@zenmonk5403Let’s not forget the fact that he could’ve forced you to become illithid he controls the protection if he really wanted to you have been an illithid and there wasn’t a damn thing you could do about it
1:55 - Okay, so I understand the whole survival over morals thing, or at least I don't get as worked up about the Emperor joining the brain as some others do, but I had a really cool idea. What if after the whole "If you will not work with me, you work against me." then instead of saying ,"You leave me no option but to join the Netherbrain." he says something like, "I once promised you that if you would not work with me, I would force you, you leave me no other choice". And essentially he's threatening to do the same thing to you that he did to Stelmane, which he will show you at that point if you've never seen it before. Then you and your party have to fight him in the Astral Prism while he tries to take over your minds. And I had really cool ideas for this fight. You know how the game never really punishes you in any way for taking the tadpoles, aside from making resistance to the half-illithid transformation harder, even though it acts like it does? Well, what if having tadpoles gave you disadvantage against the Emperor and the half-illithid would give him advantage over you. Aside from that, he's probably immune to psychic maybe resistant to several spell types and he could fly around, making it hard to hit him. But it would be cool, punishing you for trusting and then 'betraying' him, though I personally don't count it as much of a betrayal. And maybe he could still summon the dream guardians, like him punishing you for having allies; one for each companion you have by the end of the game? Like, story-wise I get why he joins the brain, but it's kind of unsatisfying because unlike Raphael whose battle feels personal, like you go to his house and beat him down, the Emperor fight is really lack luster. If I kill him at the brain it kind of feels like an accident. I wish he had an actual boss battle. It would have been so cool.
Orpheus, despite me selling a Githyanki egg to the society, killing his honor guard trying to save him and never speaking with me for the entire game and being part illithid...HE STILL HAD THE COURAGE AND TRUST TO HELP ME DEFEAT THE NETHERBRAIN AND BECAME AN ILLITHID TO SAVE THE WORLD Meanwhile the Emporer, after I saved his ass, did all his tasks, did every single possible good deed, killed a devil, killed 3 gods, and more.....AND JUST WHEN I OFFER ANOTHER SOLUTION HE DOES A 180 AND BETRAYS ME!??!? I feel there is definitely something missing here, the Emporer after doing everything in his power to stop the Netherbrain, at the slightest hint of freeing Orpheus, he decides Ive betrayed him and joins the Netherbrain!??!
It's not surprising to some of us. If you had a good relationship with him it makes sense you're surprised, but if your relationship turns sour after finding out he's a Mindflayer, he calls you horrible things, disses Orpheus, and does a bunch of shift stuff for distrusting him. The only thing keeping him safe from everything and everyone is Orpheus. That's why he wants him caged, so he can be free. You free Orpheus and he's lost, the brain will try to fight him, he has no one left. Basically, he sees it as the only way to survive is by fighting Orpheus in hopes he can recapture him with the brain.
Yeah i think it’s not so unreasonable to trust the emperor when he’s the one that’s actually kept you safe for all this time despite everything, while the only one vouching for orpheus is voss going “trust me bro” after trying to kill you multiple times
joke was on him though, I was doing the dark urge playthrough and I stabbed that boi in the throat after defeating the brain and I went on to claim my birthright as the god of the stars.
I think the emperor values self preservation above all else..he broke out the nether brain twice so he thinks he has a better chance with it than orpheus who’s personality we really dont know much about until we free him …roleplaying wise…it is an illogical and self destructive thing to do…even if it is the right thing but as a mind flayer right and wrong rarely surpasses self preservation and logic…even emotions…he cant help what he is…hence the manipulation tactics but i think he truly believed himself to be ur ally….which sucks
I wish we had a charisma check to get The Emperor and Orpheus to work together, but I'm guessing WOTC had something to do with preventing that considering this game is considered canon to the D&D universe. That's a pretty big development to be put in a video game and omitting it keeps the conflict between the two races alive.
The Emperor has been lying to you the entire time. If you you immediately reject his sexual advances, he becomes hostile and reveals that he didn't have a relationship with Duke Stelmane - he psychically dominated her and used her as a fleshdoll. This is confirmed by the Fifth Edition BG source material, which says that in the years prior to BG3, she was suffering strokes from being possessed by a mindflayer.
Possible spoilers below... As it should, Illithid are and should stay soulless abominations incapable of feeling or desires, they are not and should not be in any way relatable or redeemable, that would be completely antithetical to what they represent.. Omeluum is the only true anomaly in this game, and honestly was kind of a joke character, as was the whole society. The emperor was just as bad as the netherbrain, just tried to achieve its goals in a different way. Withers basically tells us this, and spoiler, Withers is Jergal, he'd know..
@@shushinfushin1312I don't think Omelum is a joke character by himself, just the Society of Brilliance, and that actually shadows him and makes him feel like as trashy/corny as them.
@@shushinfushin1312 Soulless is a bit of a problem here, especially since 5e still has mindflayer arcanists (uses mixed psyonics & wizard spell casting,) Alhoon - an intelligent undead arcane caster & psyonic caster working towards lichdom, and the illithilich which is a full on phylactery carrying mindflayer lich which requires having a soul to make the phylactery in the first place. This is in Volo's guide to monsters and up to Alhoon's circles in Monsters of the Multiverse.
Best ending for me is Free Orpheus -> Orpheus becomes Mindflayer -> Kill Orpheus -> Go to Avernus with Karlach (and maybe Wyll, though I didn't include Wyll because third wheel & I freed him from his pact anyway lmao). Letting Orpehus run free is potentially bad news. A reunited githyankee empire would turn it's eyes toward invading Faerun. Going with the Emperor just felt wrong, he pressured the player so much to become an Illithid after so much refusal, and I dislike the way he acts when you go the Orpheus route, even volunteering to help the elder brain (wtf?). His ultimate end goals are pro illithid and Wither is also confirming that Mindflayers do not have souls pushed me that way. Still I hope for the day for the definitive edition, it looks like there's a ton of cut content toward the end of the game, though really I would love any future dlc for the game.
More epic ending. Play as Lae'zel -> Make deal with Raphael for Hammer ->Free Orpheus -> Karlach becomes Mindflayr (because fuck that returning to Avernus crap, she deserves bettter than that) -> You kill that traitor Emperor, Karlach takes down Netherbrain -> Lae'zel flyes away with Orpheus on her persol dragon -> Unite your people just in time for Most Epic Battle In Existence againts Raphael and 9 Hells.
@@S3Cs4uN8Asmodeus is a smart fella I wouldn't be surprised if he used Raphael to do something stupid enough for him and his forces to be wiped out by some other enemy of Asmodeus leaving the victor weakened.
Hey there, I know your comment is 5 months old but you got the same ending as me and I had to scroll through all these comments to see someone post the same thing I did! I didn't kill Orpheus, he sacrificed so much for his people and to end it all after his enslavement was too brutal for such a powerful character. The first mind flayers to break from the elder brains were the ones to help turn the tides so having Orpheus living as a flayer doesn't seem too bad (thank you charisma). I didn't include Wyll either, he would watch and that would get weird. I loved the ending the way we chose it, just felt right. Now if only I had better reputation with Astarion earlier on and he didn't have to become the vampire lord. Oof.
I honestly like that Orpheus has a little temper tantrum after you free him. It makes his alliance feel way more genuine than the Emperor manipulating you the whole time. By contrast, Orpheus is completely upfront.
I stole the gith egg and he said he would strangle me right there If the nether brain wasn't a priority and my character said something to the effect "yeah yeah I was manipulated, can we move on" 😂 Even funnier by the end of the fight he called me his hero and savior and said he will honor us and never forget us, a swell guy all around, unlike Squidward
The emperor: “I am your knight in shining armor” My Tav: “you literally threatened to force me to utilize the astral tadpole when I refused to become illthid, you made a meat puppet out of duke stelmane, and have demonstrated that you’re no different from other illithid. You are a scheming monster that would kill everyone in sight if it meant your coward ass could live.”
I never aquire the Ring of mind-shielding from the Mind Flayer in the Under Dark. I feel like that plus a high charisma role would have been a nice hidden option to free Orpheus and still be allied with The Emperor
With everyone saying “he’s being unreasonable” and “balduran wouldn’t do that” and stuff like that, it makes perfect sense that he would. He’s a mindflayer, just because hes free from thralldom does not mean he’s not changed at all. Being an ilithid changes how you think and your goals and the ways you achieve them. Deception and self preservation are key aspects of being ilithid, and the emperor shows both of those. It makes sense that he would rather become a thrall to the brain than be killed by Orpheus - his self preservation is above all (hence him killing Ansur.) ok rant over
It makes zero sense. Stop making excuses for Larian's bad writing. He could have just float away and hide in the Astral Plane and lay low for some time. It's established that the brain doesn't reach him there (except when it does, becaus Larian writing).
@@Rzepik Also it doesn't make sense since his main goal from the beginning was to make sure he can't be enslaved by the elder brain anymore. So why would he go back to it, let it win the fight, take the crone and therefore gain more power to control him as a Illidith? Bad Writing indeed.
@@Rzepik Doesn’t it not reach him there because he’s using Orpheus’ power? If we were to free Orpheus and leave the Emperor without that protection, he would still become enthralled no?
I really don't get why we couldn't have a temporary ceasefire between the Emperor and Orpheus, especially since he immediately says "hey, we'll need a mind flayer to do this". Like, the emperor might have taken advantage of Orpheus' power, but he was as against the elder brain as anyone could be. He's a mind flayer that's willing to be an ally. If he'd stuck around for a little bit, it could have been him to bring it down, alongside Orpheus.
As soon as I met the real emperor and talked to them I knew they couldn't be trusted. They've been using you to their own end the entire time, outright lying about anything that might even have you consider other options, and basically gaslighting the player. It immediately made me look around for other options.
He is a fallen man. SO many hints through the game as too the things he has done. First off he wasn't just an adventurer, he was Bauldur. As in he was the founder of the city the game is based around. He got infected and escaped. He killed his best friend the dragon. He founded that underground group and that duke he loves so much im pretty sure its implied he made her his Thrall as she had a stoke one day and usually did what he wanted. The emperor is a good man corrupted, if you let yourself become a mind flayer the game literally says how you start looking at people as tools to manipulate so obviously that is what happened and Baulder stopped being the hero he was and never even realised how far from his path he went.
@@h.walker1332True, I think simply transforming into a mindflayer would change how you view the world. You might not lose yourself entirely, but you’d probably start thinking you’re on a higher level than other beings.
@@anubis7457 well, no, it's far simpler and more sinister than that, it didn't "change" how "he" viewed the world, Balduran no longer existed, the Illithid that birthed from his corpse simply had Baldurans memories, that's how it works
So we have two walking bombs to have in our party or we do the change our self. I think there is one option where the prince does it too. Going to be many play throughs...lol
there is acutally a semi 1/2 good ending for karlach to survive .1 Be her lover 2. free Orpheus 3. When she is about to explode tell her to go with you together into the hells ( the half same option if saving Orpheus and having will in Party then they both go into the Hells without you even if you her Lover). She still hates it but buys more time to live on and is either in Hardship with her loved one or Helping killing other Devils.
@@Justaguywithglassesok If she goes back to Avernus alongside yourself or Wyll, then she'll likely not die or be enslaved again. She's become far too strong for that IMO! But it's left ambiguous. It would be grounds for a good DLC/sequel/spin-off/book tbh!
More context as to why the Emperor doesn't want to free Orpheus: the Emperor has been killing Orpheus's honor guard behind the scenes the entire campaign and a bit before it too. The intellect devourers that fight with you when you first see the Emperor without a disguise are likely from the Gith warriors he's been killing. These warriors have been trying to free Orpheus for literally hundreds of years and the Emperor has been slaughtering them right in front of him. I feel like this isn't mentioned much. You don't need to eat in the Astral Plane, but the Emperor loves eating brains so much to the point that he had special recipes in his hideout for preparing them. When there's an opportunity to eat a fledgling mind flayer's brain in act 3 he's jealous as hell. He probably (speculation) ate Gith brains just for pleasure right in front of Orpheus (who can see everything that happens there despite being trapped). There's no way Orpheus would allow the Emperor to live even after the Netherbrain was defeated. He's committed crimes against his people. And it's really easy for the Emperor to just give into the Elder Brain's call. Mind flayers are literally created to be dominated by Elder Brains. His body physically WANTS to return to the Elder Brain and it's something that any independent mind flayer constantly struggles with.
The emperor really feels like a kid throwing a tantrum for not getting his own way. He's basically like "I'm gonna let the entire world become slaves because you won't let me kill this guy"
Honestly, Emperor didn’t even give us a chance to persuade him to free Orpheus. His switch to the dark side just showed how unreasonable of a fellow he really is, so I’m glad I chose to go against him and free Orpheus.
The Emperor was NEVER one of the good guys; he was manipulating you in every way he could think of right from the start. There’s plenty of hints scattered around the game to that effect, but for me, the most damning moment came in clearly on my second play through. When he tries using the old honeypot strategy on you, call him a disgusting freak and tell him that you hate him. That angers him enough to finally let the mask slip, and he reveals what he REALLY did to Duke Stelmane to get her on his side… Wyll hints at it, but the Emperor outright confirms he brainwashed her and caused permanent mental damage. He then tells you that he’s done playing nice, you’re his slave, and you’ll do whatever he tells you to if you want to live. He also threatens to forcibly transform you into a mind flayer and damn your own feelings on the matter, if you’ve still been resistant to the idea.
Because he also wants to survive and the Githyanki certainly won't let him out of principle. Also the Emperor is still a Mindflayer and since he has no reproductive organs or drive, nor any partners to live out his days with, power is probably the only thing of interest left to him. So he's likely in it for selfish reasons and only wants to stop the Netherbrain because it would also end his individuality and free will of which he is so fond of. As a Mindflayer, he still is an abomination feared and rejected by pretty much any other intelligent race on every plane of existence, no matter his personality and somewhat good natured disposition. So what future would he have?
@@axelhopfinger533 Yeah, but as we learn, Orpheus honours Tav or Karlach if they decide to become a Mind Flayer and save the world. If the Emperor stayed, surely Orpheus would honor his rebellion too.
@@bessieburnet9816but that's in hindsight in the perspective of a player. The Emperor does not get the benefit of hindsight cause he lives in that moment, not ours. Plus he was misled by the Netherbrain, making him worry about orpheus
@@matthewvillanueva4420 indeed. i suspect it was a bit like Denethor, Sauron, and the Seeing stones. Sauron let Denethor see what he WANTED him to see...only the worst possible options, and it poisoned his mind.
Doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. He orpheus claims that if you would have surrendered to his honor gaurd, then they would have given you an honorable death right? Then he says his honor guard would have freed him. But that is not true, his honor guard wouldn't be able to free orpheus without the hammer. Even if they managed to kill the illithid it would not matter. Orpheus was a prisoner long before the illithid was in the prisim. You would think he would be happy you freed him, and happy you are supportive of him considering his throne was taken from him and he was in prisoned. Honestly he sounds extremely ungrateful for a superior being who was imprisoned for a very long time.
i'm thinking that the Prince is imagining you coming to his realm with the hammer and killing his honor gaurd all at the same time instead of how it actually happened.
Yeah I wish you could have snapped back against Orpheus when he pulls the "You only freed me because it was convenient" nonsense. Orpheus, bro, I broke into a devil's fortress and killed his ass to fetch the only weapon in the multiverse capable of getting you out of your torture bubble! You think that was _convenient?_ Voss was right about him being a bit grouchy.
All the time I keep thinking, "Yep this sounds like the perfect manipulation plan. Betrayal doesn't come after you feed a staving man, it comes once that man survived and built something of himself."
alot of people here should do a playtrough where you pick the untrusting options with the emperor, and see what he does and shows you when you ask him for the truth, it really makes you see things differently
What, that he's Balduran and freed himself from the mindflayer colony through his force of will and tried to lead a normal life as a low level politician?
@@PaladinLarec a "normal life" by mind controlling the woman he said was helping him and anyone else who found out he was a mind flayer and threatening the player calling them his thrall and that they should be lucky he changed bis methods, so yea the dream of the "good balduran mind flayer" is pretty much just that a dream, withers doesn't lie, his soul is gone and so is all that made him balduran
@@JellyGomas Then of course lies to you and says it was a mutual and even romantic relationship, the implications of that are VILE. Emperor is awful. Perhaps a lesser evil than some, but it shouldn't surprise anyone that he would turn his back on you at the mere possibility that Orpheus would kill him.
The Emperor is evil, Balduran is long gone, (I can't believe what Larian did to that character among others).Everyone around him died over the years, in 'mysterious' circumstances. You can find correspondence of him colluding with Gortash as well. And anyone who believes a mind flayer can beat a dragon in a fair fight is gullible enough to believe he's trustworthy. It's always been his way or the highway.
@@AstralBelt Retcon stands for "retroactive continuity". It's what happens when canon is changed by the official source of the media. For example, say there's a book villain that everyone liked but who canonically died. Later, the writer decides to bring the villain back. So the writer releases a new book in which the villain reappears and "reveals" that he made a clone of himself to fake his own death at the end of the previous book. That's retconning, and we're supposed to accept that the villain really never died, even if the author previously confirmed that the villain died and didn't intend to bring him back. Or the same author could reveal that the beloved hero of the first book actually died shortly before the end of the book and was replaced by the villain who took his shape. What looked like a happy ending now becomes the villain's victory. Retconning is a dangerous tool because it changes existing media in ways that can ruin it. If you use it too much (like in comic books) no one will know what's real and what isn't anymore. And if you keep "building backwards" with retcon it can get pretty silly, like what Blizzard has been doing with the Warcraft franchise. And you don't need to retcon to ruin a character. You can just keep releasing new stuff in which the character is worse than they initially seemed.
I'm so torn. On one hand, the Emperor DOES help you throughout Act 1 by protecting you from the Absolute via Orpheus. The Githyanki are also cruel bastards. If you follow Lazlael's questline, they try to kill her, and you, just because you have a mind flayer tadpole (also, the gith god is basically just a high level spellcaster and not a god). And Orpheus' monks start punching the shit of you out of principle. However, it is true that the Emperor does use you as a tool and manipulates you in order to further his goals of destroying the Absolute. Even though he's Baldur he's an illithid, and its their nature to try and enthrall people. He even gives you the option to be a partial illithid. It does feel like the game pushes you towards free-ing Orpheus. However, the only reason why the Emperor decides to side with the Netherbrain is because without Orpheus he physically can't resist its power. There's a book you find which confirms that without Orpheus the Emperor would just be enthralled. The only way he escaped its clutches is by being far enough away from it in order to regain his personality enough to fight back.
The truth is: having the prism and concious Orpheus in it would probably end the same way - he will protect and guide us. The Emperor plays to survive and protects us for the very same reason, nothing more. He's liar, usefull as an ally, but a liar from the very start.
@@AlexAnder-dh8qz the issue I think is that the githyanki are cruel bastards and would gladly slaughter us for having a tadpole instead of helping us. Orpheus' monks didn't think twice before attacking us and the emperor for being ghaik. What's makes you think Orpheus wouldn't have just left us to die? The only reason why Orpheus keeps helping us in the end is because we betrayed the Emperor and freed him. It's hard to say for sure that the story would've been the same if we just had Orpheus with us from the beginning.
I actually kinda get why The Emperor isn’t open to freeing Orpheus. Its too much of a risk and you can’t convince him otherwise. If player is wrong and Orpheus won’t listen to reason it’s over.
Think about the emperor leaving Orpheus being held captive for years. It's true that Orpheus can cooperate with you even if he has a larva, but he would never cooperate with the emperor.
IT isn't Balduran, IT is a mindflayer, IT killed the dragon Balduran used to call his best friend, IT is not Balduran, so many people miss the lessons withers tries to teach us throughout the game, mindflayers do not have souls, and they can not have feelings or desires, we were duped, it's that simple
@@shushinfushin1312 it is balduran lmfao. He is the adversary. Obviously with time he changed and become more selfish and corrupted by power. If mindflayers can become a lich, they have souls.
@@shushinfushin1312 Then what in the fuck is an Alhoon. A mindflayer liche. How does one become a liche. They put their soul in a phylactery. I'm going to take decades worth of lore over this game. I rest my case.
@@trollzynisaacjohan1793 the game is canon though, and Jergal claims they do not and can not have souls, whether that's a retcon or not, I trust the word of Jergal more than I do some vague records of some loon
The whole 'we need an illithid to fight the netherbrain' thing was so stupid. At least let us make the choice not to have any illithids at all for the final fight, even if it ends up being a bad one
Orpheus is being kind of douchey in that last part. How does he expect his honor guard to freee him without the Orphic Hammer? They failed for thousands of years! If he knows about the nether brain how can he justify letting his honor guard kill the only people who can stand up to it??
Same thoughts, man. I was so pissed. Bad writing, I guess, but anyways. It's so fooked up. You've been in that prison for how many years? How do you expect to your precious "honor" guard to free you without tool? Where have they been all that time? Why didn't they free you early? How do you expect them to get that hammer, if the only thing your guard is capable of - is to beat $h!t out of someone? Becoming an illithid would be upgrade for them, more brains. Maybe they will learn how to say "hello". And those hubris and ungratefulness... we did suicidal mission for getting hammer... did all that job. Only to get that attitude as "thanks". "I'm obliged to overlook your transgressions." My god. I don't need any leniency and forgiveness from such prick, who are supposed to be main force against nether brain, but blame the only one who saved them. Utter stupidity.
Kind of like Game of Thrones where for most of the game the writing and storytelling is excellent but then, at the end, it you're left with a "WTF just happened"?
Being honest, the Emperor joining the Netherbrain is the most non-sensical shit possible in this game. It really doesn't make sense that this MF escaped the control of it twice, fought to destroy and be freed and when you say "Nah I can't kill that man" he just looks at you and say "Nice them I will enslave myself". Like ????? It just gets worse when you finish the game with Illithid Karlach and Orpheus is happy and praising to see a good-hearted Illithid that is willing to help, fight and even saved his race.
The choice was to either die there or get enthralled until he could find a way to escape. He could see through our eyes as we destroyed; Every Chosen of the Dead Three An Archdevil (Raphael) and everything that basically our character came across.
@@backsurpriser7470 Idk, it doesn't feel right neither on character. He literally choose to be enslaved because we said "Are you sure we can't find another way and save all people of both sides?", even after during many times during the game letting we do whatever and we becoming allies. At least they could have made some type of reaction for him. Like when X character aprooves your actions, you know. And if his moral with us was high enough, he would trust and at least try.
@@blueveil3277 it makes sense when you do the emperor ending though, it tries to take control no matter what, that was its goal all along I suspect. Orpheus would guarantee that would never happen whether Orpheus would kill it or not, joining the netherbrain(again btw) would at least possess a chance it could happen in the future, at least that's my guess as to its thought process
@@backsurpriser7470Nope. It's established that he's outside of brain's control in astral plane. He could just fly away and lay low there. It's a fookin Astral plane, you can hide there forever. You don't age, you don't starve. Stop making excuses for Larian. Writing never was their strong suit.
I always hated games where every one had a happy ending. You know what this game is starting to make me feel more and more like from the past. Sad thing is it's one of the company's complaining about how good it is and it shouldn't be the standard. It's the standard a lot of these companies made names of themselves long a go and forgotten. This reminds me of the endings of Dragon Age: Origin. There where so many options and most of them wasn't the complete happy ending.
@@likeorasgod Most of the major games I played have a bitter sweet ending or one that's barely considered good at all. The main character dies or most of the world is destroyed
@@likeorasgodI don't understand why you hate games where everyone gets a happy ending. I always prefer games where everyone gets a happy ending or at least obtain the best possible happy ending. Do you hate happy endings because you love evil winning or something?
@@korhddrebirth7778It’s documented in several studies that people with easier lives find sad/grim works more entertaining while those with harder lives enjoy happy/comedic works. Think of it historically, even. Tragedies are the favorites of the elites, while comedies were the favorite of the commoners. People crave the novelty of the rarer emotion… if you don’t feel true despair often, then it’s an interesting emotion. If you aren’t often happy and satisfied, then it’s nice to feel.
The first time I did this I thought I made a mistake. But then I thought about the number of times he deceived you, killing ansur, etc. And based on whats in one of the books, is who infected you in the first place. Screw this guy.
It's funny because there's a book right in the Emperor's lair kn Baldur's Gate explaining you can't trust Illithids and they'll always manipulate you, and the only way to not be manipulated is to avoid them or have very strong friendships xD Kind of a cute, but poignant way of telling you what's what lol
This was my choice, one he calls himself ‘Emperor’ and two I wasn’t going to end up like his Dragon. The fact that he joins the brain said it all. Great ending too.
He probably soiled his tentacles when he heard the Elder Brain say she freed him intentionally to find a group of adventurers to come and free her, his reaction to that information already signaled me to his betrayal
yea there should be different final bosses depending on the decisions you make. And i dont understand why baldurs gate 3 didnt take the "faction " route. Not in the typical sense of having to go to a guild to get quests, but you should in the end, need to end up taking a side, and no not just 2 sides with minimal changes in end result. I mean there should be 3 or 4 different characters( end bosses) each trying to get power, and you can decide to help one of them, betray another, or decide to try and claim the power for yourself. That would be epic. There should be a dark lord end boss, or you can fight the queen, or you can go inside and take out the illthid. it would be so much better, and it would make more sense
@@matthewvillanueva4420 not really. You keep it once transformed into a squid. Ophelius from the Underdark is a good indication. You are still yourself. And that ilithids prefer to live in psychic communions doesn't mean they are losing original self completely.
I think my biggest gripe with the game was how much we had to rely on The Emperor the whole time. I wish he wasn't the actual reason we were being saved and instead it was more him just abusing the power Orpheus had, I mean it is that too but you can't just off the guy and use that power for yourself. Just makes a lot of playthroughts awkward, like Durge and Githyanki just casually going along with him until this moment.
I sided with Orpheus. Getting the hammer was honeslty just because I wanted to see and fight against Raphael - but once the end came I freed orpheus....and he took the mindflayer transformation for me. He's literally a selfless hero and the Emperor has lied about him to you so you'd side with him.
knocked him unconscious in the last fight just to spare him. Apparently that didn't matter in the end. Wish Larian would have taken that into account to see what he would say after.
If you get to this point without consuming any tadpoles, and without partaking with Omellum's potion neither the gith tadpole 'extractor', does Orpheus reacts differently?
He does not. I went full no illithid stuff on first playthrough for roleplay reasons and it doesn’t really change anything anywhere in the game (as far as I’ve seen).
Question if anyone knows, but does Gale offer to detonate his bomb on the Orpheus route? Or just the emperor route? So you dont have to turn anyone into a mindflayer
Gale suggests it but Orpheus doesn't trust that it will work since he "does not know of this orb" and insists that having a mind flayer is the only guarantee.
Gale does offer to detonate the bomb, but someone is still forced the become a mindflayer no matter what. You can also still get the option to detonate Gale's orb before climbing the brainstem (killing only himself) and doing it in the middle of the final encounter (killing the entire party with some extra lines about how the fight is turning bad and exploding is the best option, godspeed friend)
I think him joining the netherbrain is just another gamble for his alien logic and not as far fetched as ppl think, i mean he broke free twice, he prolly thinks he can again eventually
it's quite impossible for him to have a third instance because this time: It's a netherbrain, and a third party non-existing, but your insight gave me a realization despite act 3 being a bad writing; bias. We tend to have bias at some point. Mind flayers are soulless and emotionless. If bias exist in their pure logical conclusions, it's due to their knowledge and understanding. "If two instances occur, why won't a third occur?"
Dude saves me to manipulate me and use me as a damn lapdog to do his dirty work. I get up and save his ass from the honor guard, ignore all the red flags until I get the means to actually have a thought for myself.. Then he has the audacity to be like "ugh that wasn't very cash money of you twin" and goes to back up the damn brain in the final battle. If I was able to Id start every file by telling this fool to scram.
This choice is so artificial. He does all this 4d chess trying to defeat the absolute and now he just says "guess I'll join them then lol" because he doesnt get exactly what he wants? Doesn't make any sense
He just wants to live more, he doesnt care that his an ilithid, "SPOILERS" but since you might of missed it or didnt see the connection, he even killed his best friend to live
@@Sivart.He kills his best friend because his best friend was about to kill him. I dont think thats really his fault. And if he didnt care about being part of the hive mind then why did he break free twice?
i mean he could of just left rather then kill his best mate, like you said his broken free twice before, why not 3 times, Might not be able to considering it was his best mate that broke him free. one of the times im pretty sure.@@BingusMax
a lot of people don't want the you get railroaded to have an ilithid for the finale thing and i do understand that. it does have a small (and i do mean small) amount of mass effects 3 ending to it. so who knows maybe some brilliant modders can make a true happy ending mod where you can fix karlach and take on the end with triumphant glory. i have enjoyed bg3 and dont need a perfect ending but to be fair my favorite feeling in an open ended rpg has always been to reach the end having done everything i can and seeing a job well done without regrets (less realistic but still nice).
There’s more of XCOM: EW: aliens on the starships are abducting people, the opposing party is led by a mysterious man, and in the finale the specially trained psionic volunteer completes a suicidal mission.
Ran through every situation in my head about this. Freeing Orphues and turning Karlach into a Mind Flayer is the only solution that's the best. Emperor be damned. The Comet be damned as well. But, its best to set aside the differences and kill this giant threat than kill each other
@@vileluca No where does it hint that she becomes Zariel's slave again. Her and Wyll became besties and killed demons until they can get her a new heart in my game. Orpheus was a much easier choice. I don't know him, he straight up says he'd rather I died way earlier... Why would you rather keep him alive than karlach? I even gave him a chance to put his money where his mouth was, which to his credit he does. IMO that's miles better than letting Karlach turn, I wasn't sure what her outcome would be but I was still hoping to convince her to not let herself just die
I always found it stupid how The emperor continuously says he'll kill us all instantly but if you free him he's like I guess we gotta work together now
Not enough people have seen that Orpheus literally refuses to protect you if you free him early, giving you a pretty solid Game Over. The only reason he helps you now is because there is no other choice. The Emperor was right initially, Orpheus had no want to help you or your party and freeing him now doesnt change that.
How the hell would you even manage to free him early without hacks? You can't break his chains without the Orphic Hammer, which you can't even use until this moment, because The Emperor wont just let you back into the Prism.
i love the game, i hate these options. there should be a choice where you can punch these two get along (for now at least). i just want more adventures!
I love that when the emperor is telling you to trust him, he LITERALLY lists all the ways he tried to manipulate you. Like he does not appeal to emotion like a human, he is thinking like an illithid going "Look how many trust coins I gave you, it is so illogical for you to not trust me"
fr
But he LITERALLY saved your life, without him, you will dead by the fall from the ship or by being a mind flayer
@@christhopercaballero6829 True but one thing does not exclude the other! He still manipulates you, and in a way he can't help it he's a mind flayer. He is definitely NOT balduran, for a number of reasons but also he nonchalantly tells you he "only feeds on criminals" as if that's a huge point in his favor, while in the trial to get to Ansur, the real Balduran('s memory) rewards you for dealing with an hypothetical criminal with 10 days in jail with warm meals.
@@myky992 So the whole bit about the dragon's spirit recognizing him to be Balduran and talking with him about their past is all just ... an illusion? What the trial states is the idea of how justice should work. And even though Balduran apparently "recorded" those messages, that doesn't mean he would've followed his own teachings/rules to the letter all of the time. As a human, he was flawed because being flawed and fallible is in our nature. And after his transformation, he was a Mindflayer, whose nature it is to consume people's brains.
He also tells you to trust him after essentially lying and deceiving you the entire game. Even when you think he’s revealed his real secret you find out he’s hiding even more bullshit.
"I never lied to you, not once" guess that's not counting the times it invaded my dreams pretending to be something it isn't.
To be fair, and he explains that, no one would even let him speak if he had walked in as a mind flayer. That being said, he only revealed himself because he was forced to.
@@CidGuerreiro1234 "i lied to you because of a reason" still lose - lose situation that made me not trust him either way
@@uchiwalaumdilala Also, he withheld the truth on literally numerous occasions. He could've told us about Orpheus, and how he was protecting us. And all of that other stuff that was damn important for us to know.
Ehh, it can be argued that YOU created him/it/her to look that way. He arrived in your dreams as a blank slate as just thought, your subconscious filled in the blanks of what that "voice" looked like.
Uhhhh.. He is definitely evil. He literally controlled the mind of Stelmaine and used her for her own gain.. When approached by a friend that could bring back his prior body.. he denied him then killed him in his sleep.
The Emperor joining the Netherbrain is Star Child levels of logic and mental gymnastics in justification.
It all out of presevation. That thing probe your mind to know what would get your rock off.
he is a souless tadpol in the end
For all the talk about freedom he really was a "better to live a slave than die free" guy.
Freedom can only be enjoyed if you are alive to enjoy it. If he joins the brain, there is a chance he will live long enough to break free of its control again
I actually think it's in character, you can get to know his true colors, he is a piece of shit
Emperor: I love freedom way too much to ever join the netherbrain, I hate being a slave to the hivemind
Also Emperor: I can't believe you just broke up with me, time to be a slave to the hivemind again gg bye
Also: I’m enslaving a gith to keep myself free, also I’m keeping the gith species enslaved forever
Thats because when you release Orpheus, The Emperor will become a slave anyway so he has no choice but to return. He litterary says so.
@@kerrynator Well he had the choice to at least talk it out with Orpheus before leaving, he says it’s guaranteed that Orpheus will attack and subduing him would involve killing him. But he doesn’t, Orpheus is fairly reasonable and could have likely worked something out with the emperor, even if just short term, I assume having a foreseeable free future with potential for more, is still better then just submitting yourself to be a slave to the nether brain.
But sure, pitch a fit and leave cause you don’t trust the angry alien you’ve never talked to before, having sucked the power from, and planning to eat the brain of instead, that works too.
He is like Isildur. It wasn't the tadpole nor the elder brain that corrupted him, but the power.
@@insaneyoohoowith all the abuse that the emperor has done to Orpheus, i can't see both of them working together. After all, being a mind flayer was *his* choice, even killing his own *friend* on his path.
"Since you will not work with me, you work against me" Only a sith deals in Absolutes... I will do what I must...
Hahaha! Same thing came to mind when The Emperor said that xD
me too @@RobynLtW
"Only a sith deals in Absolutes." Are you _absolutely_ sure about that?
Oh this one has layers. Props.
Top tier comment
Emperor: I know I repeatedly lied to you, obscures the truth at every opportunity, literaly catfished you 2/3 of the game, possibly have romantic relationship with you and I do not even reveal my real real identity to you unless you find out, but you HAVE TO trust me and my plan.
Tav: So I thinkI can persuade Orpheus to join us againts Netherbrain.
Emperor: What? You want ME to trust YOU? Are you nutts? No way, I am giving up my freedom and joining enemy faction.
You catfished yourself by making the guardian hot 🤨
That’a exactly it, also I didnt catfish myself, I sort of figured some shit was up at the start because there always is with those “I’m mysterious” motherfuckers but the intent is that he was actively trying to deceive you with his appearance
@@Groppler i just couldn't resist this chubby ginger dwarf sweetie 😍
Another tell is that re-joining the Netherbrain was his 'failsafe'. He escaped once he may well again. Also, I never completely bought the idea that he was completely free of it's influence. For all we know, he's been a puppet of the Netherbrain in order to get its tentacles on the Netherstones by an alternate means.
It is a fun game, but after arriving at Baldurs Gate the story becomes kinda weak
:( They should team up with Obsidian for the next game. It'd be the greatest RPG ever
I really wish there was a charisma option or something to convince the emperor to give it one chance and allow Orpheus to be freed, it feels a bit unbecoming of his character to just decide to be with the netherbrain after all this effort to destroy it
yea the writing quality towards the end of the game takes a pretty steep drop
@@Birbucifer are you sure there isn't a way to progress the game in this way? I tried killing the mindflayer before (emperor) and.. well.. it was an instant game over. So idk
Act 3 of the game was cut in half. The game should've been delayed at least half a year, if not more, but they didn't. They instead released it a month earlier to one-up major releases in September.
@@thescatterpiratesquarepant7935 yea you don't get the actual choice to backstab him until later
@@LecherousLizarddud its a 100h game with insane replayability value. Like give them a break lol. They may have seen to big. Thats is more likely to be the problem
The Emperor betraying you, Baldur's Gate and the entirety of Faerun the moment he thought the Netherbrain was the winning side confirmed every single suspicion I had about him from the very start.
i thought it was obviously a mage that was imprisoned inside the artifact quite quickly. I didnt think it was a mindflayer. I thought the mage went in either voluntarily, or involuntarily, to keep an evil power contained within, the evil power was placed within the object in order to get it from one realm into another. But its not clear why the prince has so much power, and how the artifact was taken from the queen.
He's a mindflayer. The INSTANT I learned he was a mindflayer I was like 'well we need to change this situation ASAP! This guy is NOT our ally
He is a person that puts his life above others. It has been shown in the game. Many people believe death is better then being an illithid which to balduran isn't true he would rather live. His dragon friend his mercy was to kill him but balduran didn't want to die. Even to illithids balduran is the opposite of them culturally or least the general populace not the higher ups. The general society of illithids want to be united in consciousness which is what they believe happens when join elder brains. But the brains and high power illithids know that they don't retain consciousness and just take their knowledge. Illithids don't necessarily lose themselves when they turn as some retain themselves more and are less susceptible to mind control which is why they avoid gnomes. The brains need easily controlled people we see this in game with the cultists.
With balduran wanting to live being his big thing even if it means hurting others joining the brain does make sense since to him defeating the brain if wasn't working together couldn't work. Most likely thought that he could free himself sometime in the future from the mind control. Orpheus isn't nice either if he doesn't have a need for you like shown in this vid he doesn't help you. If you freed him earlier he let's you turn. He only works with you here because he needs an illithid to defeat the brain. Both of them aren't some altruistic people.
So he is a person that puts his life above others. He has had people say he should die then live for long time. Even the gods in this world are selfish which gale points out that they have the power to stop all this suffering but don't
@@xZeru001x isn't Ao preventing the gods from doing almost anything when it comes to mortals?
He rallied with us so that he can keep his freedom, the moment we betray that he rather join the Netherbrain if it means still being alive and all. Atleast if the Netherbrain were to die to Orpheus he will be able to slip through the shadows again and enjoy the Githyanki civil war on the side.
“You fornicated with a mind-flayer.”
The way he says it with so much disgust. 😂 I have no regrets!!!
i did it for the achievement lmao
The two I wanted were nightsong and my guardian before emperor. Needless to say they both let me down and I let my original waifu die for nightsong too.
Degenerates be like...I HAVE NO REGRETS lmfao
Only person that beats the emperor in my book is Halsin
monster F'ers unite!!!! *wheeze*
The Emperor claims his greatest desire is freedom and independence yet keeps someone chained up
claims indeed, yet mindflayers do not have "desires", it's almost like it's lying :p
His greatest desire is HIS freedom and independence, and Orpheus’s captivity is essential to that in his eyes.
correction, he desires his own freedom and independence. Everyone else's be damned
"Emperor claims his greatest desire is freedom and independence"
That's too funny and very Sith response.
Its funny because the voice of the Illiad Emperor is the same voice of the Sith Emperor in SWTOR.
Me thinks the designers of BG3 are SWTOR fans.
He values his freedom above the freedom of others. He wants to survive while being free and is willing to sacrifice everyone and everything for it.
They think they need someone to sacrifice themself to become a mindflayer and everyone collectively forgets Omeluum is just chilling at the Society of Brilliance lodge 😂
Orpheus seems to be pretty reasonable. The Emperor thought that he would immediately become hostile, but he didn't. He's willing to work with you against the greater threat.
It doesn't make much sense for the Emperor to go to the Netherbrain. Even if Orpheus holds the grudge, his first priority after defeating the Netherbrain will be to free the Githyanki from Vlaakith, and that won't happen in a day. It'll be a civil war that would last decades, maybe centuries. You'll probably be dead of old age by then.
Yeah. Freeing Orpheus is exactly the right choice here.
I think If you choose to play githyanki you might get the choice to go with him? It would make sense I think
@@bessieburnet9816 It's ironic but both of these leaders could have been allies. They are both surprisingly reasonable for their arrogant and violent species.
When you try to save the Prince earlier by killing the Emperor, Orpheus do not shield you from the absolute and let you turn into Mindflayer(gameover). I guess since he did not need you at that point he let you turn and die at the hands of his guards. Let me remind you he let his saviors not only from the Mindflayer Emperor but also from his imprisonment of Giths' Queen, to turn. So i guess Orpheus is in a mindset that he don't really care about anyone unless he can use those for his own objectives.
Still i also think instead of Emperor's leave, we should have an option to use Emperor against the Brain. But i guess bad-writing WANTS you to sacrifice someone to turn Mindflayer cause it is more dramatic...
@@Mounthuapleb5890you can at ending. I finished game as Githyanki
What I find interesting is that if you go mind flayer, reject The Emperor, and then free Orpheus, you can just prove to him that you are your own person, that doesn’t obey an elder brain, and that’s not only enough for him to ally with you, but he even waxes poetic about how you and he are like the original Renegade Mindflayer and Gith that fought back against the Grand Design.
The game just didn’t want you to be able to work with both sides here I guess
After the battle with Gortash, I took a key from his body and searched the premises and found a register of an interrogation conducted by one of his blackhands. The interrogated was a member of the team that guarded Duke Stelmane (the Emperor's former partner), and he mentioned finding out that she was eating brains and when she arrived in the room, he saw for a moment a form with tentacles and after that, he couldn't remember. And in the emperor's old bunker, tou can find notes of Duke Stelmane where she says that her mind is foggy lately, causing headaches and confusion when she tries to think too much about it. With these evidences, one can conclude that She was not the Emperor"s "partner", but his puppet. I never trusted him, even in the form of dream visitor. I think the best ending is releasing Orpheus, who, contrary of the Emperor "advises", shown to be a straightforward ally and a reasonable person, even after you slaughtered his honor's guard and stole the egg from the creche. I only didn't want Karlach to have to sacrifice herself.
In the scene, where the Emperor comes to you in your dreams without a shirt, you can choose dialogue options that seem to piss him off and he shows telepathically the truth behind his "partnership" with Duke Stelmane. It's the same cutscene where he recounts their great friendship but from a viewpoint of the Duke being under his control. He then proceeds to berate you for distrusting him and calls you a puppet in his game. So yeah, he's one rotten apple lol
I stole the egg, nuked creche, slaughter all his guard and yet hes still belived us. truly a reasonable king
Wanted to point out that those notes in the Emperor's place were written by the doctor. It's the doctor complaining of foggy memory and not being able to remember the visitor, not Duke Stelmane, and that's because the Emperor is making them forget that he's a mind flayer.
so, you'd rather die? Wonder who you killed in your play through.@@feelfree111
Release Orpheus early, you will see he isn't reasonable at all as he lets you get consumed by the parasite. All this cutscenes does is show that he has no other choice but to use you in the same way the Emperor was.
the Emperor is being unreasonable. Orpheus would totally join up to take down the bigger threat
emperors enslave us if we let him control the brain, he is a mindflayer afterall and they are evil.
The Emperor is concerned with himself. He's not inherently evil, but Orpheus would never in a million years forgive him for trapping him and exploiting his powers. The only reason he doesn't kill the entire party of the MC is because they were pieces in the game of chess and not the perpetrators. If you did the bronze dragon questline, Emperor/Balduran would rather kill his best friend Ansur than to die by his hands; he very much values his life.
The way I see it is once he can’t channel Orpheus’s power through the artifact anymore he loses all power in the relationship, and that’s the main thing he’s against
@@300y1literally nobody irl would let someone kill them like that. Self-preservation is a real thing
@@RyuKaguyaillithids aren't something irl, they don't have soul and feelings
"I have not lied to you, not once"
Well I guess the emperor doesnt know how to count then because i can track down about 10 lies throughout the entire playthrough.
Emperor: It took all of my strengh and incredible talents to break free form de Elder Brain
Omeluum: I just left bc I felt like it lol
Omeluum is an ilithid arcanist, his innate spellcasting is what freed him
Bro managed to resist an elder Brain just by being a magic man
It’s too bad you can’t get a hold of Omeluum in anyway just so no one has to make the sacrifice of becoming a mind flayer would definitely give you more incentive to save them from the iron throne
Omeluum just do be chillin with his feet up ong
Omeluum be the true Mind Flayer with the thougght process of a human, just a bit more enlightened and eccentric. He would have done this better XD
He was probably mind controlled at this time unfortunately. Yeah he has his ring but I doubt that saves him from the full force of a netherbrain mere blocks away.
@@theangrypotato2.031 I don’t know. He probably had some safe measures in place for that situation. I just think it would’ve been a nice substitute that would have its own consequences like while you’re searching and battling your way through boulders gate looking for him you’re wasting valuable time while innocence are dying a type of you saved your companions and yourself but at what costs ending
That’s so true actually we should have been able to do that
In retrospect, The Emperor/Balduran honestly should have allowed Ansur to kill him...
Honestly? Yes. There’s a reason Orpheus BEGS you to kill him if he becomes a mind flayer. He knows that eventually he will lose himself like the Emperor did.
"How can you not trust me after everything I've done to manipulate and groom you?!?!"
- The Emperor; dumbest squid in Faerûn
Look baby, I can change. Just a nibble of grey matter pls
imagine freeing the slave master
Even after vibing with the Emperor the whole game, Orpheus just makes more sense. Plus the Emperor got really greedy after going Illithid, didn’t trust him after finding the dragon
You’re talking about Ansur, correct?
Nah the empror makes more sense
I mean Ansur tried to kill him? It was self defense?
He has been lying to you since the start I did not trust him at all after he revealed who he was
@@XFizzlepop-Berrytwist Ansur hasn’t revealed much about the murder, but I suppose the Emperor speaks lies S always
This path is very conflicting to me, cause I think that honestly if we just talked it out between them we could’ve formed a temporary alliance of some sort between the Prince and The Emperor. I don’t 100% trust Emperor, but I do believe that he is on your side. Whether it is for self preservation or not, doesn’t matter to me as long as he kept his word. I think after everything that happens in the game, siding with Orpheus, whom you’ve never spoken to before is a crazy decision. I was STRESSING during this scene in my play through.
the main problem with trusting the emporer.. is that while hes on your side for now while a greater threat is active... once that threat is dealt with... he is still a mindflayer and still eats peoples brains...
@@arcanumelite4853 That;s a fair point, but honestly if they're all criminals and others of the sort I can look past it, probably not the most morally sound opinion, but it is just a game
@@arcanumelite4853Eating criminal brains is no different than shoving cold steel into a criminals heart. You're snuffing their life either way. The issue I have with The Emperor is the constant withholding of information. The Mind Flayer bit makes sense. Information on who he was before the tadpole, not so much and every worse is the hidden information you can find throughout Act 3.
@@emotionalnpc There are a lot more crimes unworthy of a death sentence than ones that justify such a fate, and plenty more circumstances of those crimes that would make such a punishment barbaric. There's absolutely no reason to believe Emperor would ever consider such things if he found himself starving, regardless of the weird heel turn to the Netherbrain at the end.
I think the character of the Emperor is a fascinating one. A mind flayer with a sense of individuality, memories from a mortal life that it draws on to make sense of itself, but also uses it to rationalize its behavior and its own nature. It still manipulates, but rather than psychic domination it uses emotional pull and omission. I'm not even sure if the Emperor is aware that it's doing all these things, which really blurs the lines on what a mind flayer is truly capable of.
I ultimately agree that preserving this nuance behind the Emperor, allowing to negotiate some kind of truce, would have left a lot of these fascinating questions looming over the story well past its end. I get why they went for this divisive wedge in the name of drama, but Larian clearly missed the long-standing drama for a short term "tough choice to make in a video game" trope. Rather unfortunate.
@@WiggidyWackso you're telling a murderer who killed more than 3 guys is so worth living? That is simply,utterly,morally backwards
Holy heck the Emperor is absolutely being another Kethric. They both imprison someone else to leech the imprisoned person's power to extend their own life
For people who don't understand this situation:
You cannot convince the Emperor because he is an illith. His brain quite literally works differently. He made his calculations and came to the conclusion Orpheus would never allow him to live (which is reasonable, the guy used to run Baldur's Gate before, he is a confirmed threat).
He values his freedom, but to be free first he needs to be alive. There is a reasonable chance that he can do both if he has the Netherstones, but without it there is none, and with Orpheus free it's even worse.
So since he can't live and be free, he can at least live in the hopes that one day another opportunity will rise. It's similar to what the Netherbrain did to gain access to the crown.
The Emperor is not a good guy. He is just looking for his own ass, everyone else are useful allies. Tav can become closer, but he is still not humanoid and does not think like one. He is a control freak at heart and will throw a tantrum if you so much look into other options besides the ones he gives. He outright manipulates you and then uses the fact he was uncovered as a sign of trust. He would easily be a villain on another campaign were things slightly different.
I do think the game needed more options at the end, though it's hard to fault Larian given the scope of everything prior. Still, this conflict with him is hardly out of character, and I can see this being more intentional than just a compromise.
And keep in mind, it's not that he made his calculations and can be reasoned with. He is always dead set and never asks YOUR opinion. Again, control freak.
The only time in the game you can convince him is when he is tempted to become the Absolute, at which point it's a case where he has two possible paths and would naturally choose the one with the better survival rate, but Tava can weigh the balance towards domination - again, guy is a control freak of course he masturbates to the idea of becoming the Absolute.
It should be noted that, if the player sides with the Emperor, he does everything he promises and can even allow the player to be cured of the ithilid tadpoles with no strings attached (even if you for the most part don't follow his suggestions). He may be a self-righteous, survivalist prick who has a professional degree in gaslighting, but he does treat his allies well if they treat him well in turn as that's something he learned as a consequence of his mistake of enthralling his previous "partner" back when he was Balduran. He is 100% not a good guy...but he also isn't really the villain either. If anything, he's a narratively grander companion who, like all other companions, you can choose to help become better than the mess he's in or double down on his worse traits.
It just really sucks that there's no option to point out that, despite how much he proudly states that he does not think like other Ithilids, having him so mechanically calculate Orpheus never willing to spare him is a very Ithilid thing to do since it's a decision with no hope behind it. Because the hilarious (if not tragically so) irony is that Orpheus is a lot more reasonable than the Emperor thinks.
@@joshuakim5240 "but he does treat his allies well if they treat him well"
Not exactly.
He very much was thinking about enthralling you as Absolute, he refrains from that because his chances of survival are slim. Turning on your after the Netherbrain goes down would be suicide, essentially. Your party quite literally did the impossible, he isn't going to mess with that - Mindflayers, matter of fact, are not so direct.
With the Netherbrain gone, the Netherstones around and Orpheus' powers, he can just slip away and fade into the background, once again starting to control Baldur's Gate or his new territory.
He constantly differentiates himself from other Mindflayers as means of trying to convince you to lower your guard. He is very much a mindflayer, thinks and acts like one.
The Emperor is very much a villain, and the fact he does not turn on you with some villainous speech does not change that.
Omeluum shows us that not all Mindflayers are evil.
Emperor shows us that Omeluum is a rare exception, not the rule.
Nope you are wrong. The real reason why you cant convince the emperor is larian run out of time. If you have played the game you will notice that the some parts of act 3 feels weird its because its unfinished.
Dont get me wrong its still a great game maybe one of the best games ever made and definitely goty but even larian know the fact that act 3 and the late story is unfinished.
the only reasonable thing he should do it to fight the player's party to the dead, not running out to be a slave again.
Damn he joined the big bad pretty fast once he didnt get his way.
He figured, that after being imprisoned for so long by the emperor, Orpheus would NOT be happy to see him after awakening. Did not want to take any risk, his entire character is a coward. Outside the prism he does not get the choice to flee from the elder brain, since the brain senses him and immediately takes control.
My hypothesis is that the Netherbrain has always been acting through The Emperor, whether he knows it or not. That's the thing with Illithids, even if they do retain parts of their past lives, these egos are often manipulated into thinking their actions are their own, when their goals ultimately serve the interests of the Netherbrain. That's what made The Emperor valuable, their own ego would allow them to believe they were free from influence so as to be a more convincing agent on their behalf. He was on the nautiloid, he infected us in the opening cinematic. While the Netherbrain was being controlled by the netherstones - he would be the catalyst to the Netherbrains escape. He only staves off the influence of those controlling the Netherbrain, once they're yours, he starts trying to get you to "evolve", pushing you to free the brain so you can "control it"
When in reality, no one truly controls the Netherbrain, they just serve as the catalyst of it's will. the control is an illusion. still exploring the story bits, but these are how im reading the tea leaves as they fall
While this is an interesting hypothesis, there is one flaw in the fact that the Emperor isn't the one who infected you. In Act 1 you can find a Mind Flayer corpse in front of Dror Ragzlin, the Hobgoblin leader you can choose to kill along with Priestess Gut and Minthara. I used Speak with Dead on it and through the questions I asked, I learned that this corpse belonged to the Mind Flayer who infected the party
Also from the conversation with Withers,”Do illithids possess souls? No, no they do not.
I think this is atleast partially cannon
Your hypothesis is actually canon. You have to read a lot of letters/journals and stuff to get the full story but yes, literally everything the Emperor did was under the command of the netherbrain so it could free itself from the Dead Three and enact the grand design.
yet he still respected my Karlach enough to invite her to the party.. I like to think he also thinks fondly of Omeluum and Us. They may literally not have souls, but that doesn't make them less *people*. Kind of like asking if AI if fully developed to have autonomy, does it have a soul? Probably not, but the trade off is immortality. You can have eternity in the afterlife, or you can have eternity here. Those are the choices. @@nightcrawlr1035
It seem the Emperor's goal was just to stay alive. He killed his friend Ansur. He leaves you when he realizes you're the weaker side. He's just drive by survival instinct.
Considering the game gives you a chance to convince Lae'zel and Voss that you should still work together after Orpheus is killed, the fact that you're not given a chance to convince the Emperor when you wanted to save Orpheus is quite strange. He didn't even explain why he was left with "no other choice but to join the Netherbrain". His 180 degree turn is just out of nowhere imo
Edit: there are many replies citing that the Emperor is not a truly good character so his final decision to return to the Netherbrain is not out of character for him. I disagree with this heavily because whether or not he's always been good morally is besides the point. If he backstabbed you in the end then those arguments of him not being a good person might have a point but that's not the problem that we're dealing with. The problem was that throughout, he's shown to want to defeat the Absolute so that he'd gain his own freedom. To suddenly made a decision to return to being a mindless slave goes against his main objective throughout the story. Whether he is a good person or not has no bearing to his main objective of being free from the Absolute's control.
Edit 2: So there's also many arguments stating that he's choosing to side with the Netherbrain because that's a way for him to ensure his survival in the case of Orpheus being freed. Counterpoint, he's an illithid ie the one person capable of defeating the Netherbrain. He knows this, you know this, Orpheus knows this so the Emperor would only win if he stays. Enough said on that front.
Larian writing.
And the classic Larian rushed late game.
Maybe it will be fixed in Finished Edition.
He has no clue what happens when Orpheus is free, but he takes the bet that Orpheus will just kill him and you instead of teaming up against the Netherbrain. It's not entirely illogical -- Gith of both factions have illithids on their "kill on sight" radar. By leaving the protection, he's going to be a thrall to the brain, but at least he'd be a living thrall... which would again be the logical choice, except the entire game he talked up being free as the only choice.
I really hope in the Enhanced Edition they address it. As is, it really does end the way so many tabletop campaigns do.
@@pellunderscore I absolutely understand that, the gith were said to be immortal enemies with the illithids which he is so him being adamant about Orpheus killing him on sight is quite valid. The thing that I'm quite miffed about was that he immediately 180 without giving you any further explanation and the game didn't even give the player a chance to convince him otherwise like with Lae'zel and Voss. His 180 was a whiplash to be honest.
There could been a dialogue about how he always asked the player to trust him so now he should trust the player as well or how he has protected the player thus far so now the player will protect him in return should Orpheus threatens to kill him once he is freed. Something like that would've made his "betrayal" more bearable since if we failed to convince him then we know that we did try to convince him but there's none of that in the game.
@@rayclay3249 He's in Astral Plane, far away from brain's influence. He could just float away and lay low.
Instead he chose guaranteed slavery. That's after the game establishes strongly he doesn't want to be a slave.
@@Rzepik Exactly why I feel it's so abrupt, it kinda goes against his motivation for the entire game.
I was able to convince Orpheus to turn himself into a mindslayer and he ultimately won me the battles all the way till the end, so many different outcomes.
He was so heroic it made me mad for being a coward, so I pressed F8 and did the job myself.
@@zenmonk5403 on my 2nd play through now and just gonna used all tadpoles to upgrade all my powers and now Im even stronger than he is 😂
Me too. No regrets there.
@@zenmonk5403Let’s not forget the fact that he could’ve forced you to become illithid he controls the protection if he really wanted to you have been an illithid and there wasn’t a damn thing you could do about it
1:55 - Okay, so I understand the whole survival over morals thing, or at least I don't get as worked up about the Emperor joining the brain as some others do, but I had a really cool idea. What if after the whole "If you will not work with me, you work against me." then instead of saying ,"You leave me no option but to join the Netherbrain." he says something like, "I once promised you that if you would not work with me, I would force you, you leave me no other choice". And essentially he's threatening to do the same thing to you that he did to Stelmane, which he will show you at that point if you've never seen it before. Then you and your party have to fight him in the Astral Prism while he tries to take over your minds. And I had really cool ideas for this fight.
You know how the game never really punishes you in any way for taking the tadpoles, aside from making resistance to the half-illithid transformation harder, even though it acts like it does? Well, what if having tadpoles gave you disadvantage against the Emperor and the half-illithid would give him advantage over you. Aside from that, he's probably immune to psychic maybe resistant to several spell types and he could fly around, making it hard to hit him. But it would be cool, punishing you for trusting and then 'betraying' him, though I personally don't count it as much of a betrayal. And maybe he could still summon the dream guardians, like him punishing you for having allies; one for each companion you have by the end of the game?
Like, story-wise I get why he joins the brain, but it's kind of unsatisfying because unlike Raphael whose battle feels personal, like you go to his house and beat him down, the Emperor fight is really lack luster. If I kill him at the brain it kind of feels like an accident. I wish he had an actual boss battle. It would have been so cool.
Orpheus, despite me selling a Githyanki egg to the society, killing his honor guard trying to save him and never speaking with me for the entire game and being part illithid...HE STILL HAD THE COURAGE AND TRUST TO HELP ME DEFEAT THE NETHERBRAIN AND BECAME AN ILLITHID TO SAVE THE WORLD
Meanwhile the Emporer, after I saved his ass, did all his tasks, did every single possible good deed, killed a devil, killed 3 gods, and more.....AND JUST WHEN I OFFER ANOTHER SOLUTION HE DOES A 180 AND BETRAYS ME!??!?
I feel there is definitely something missing here, the Emporer after doing everything in his power to stop the Netherbrain, at the slightest hint of freeing Orpheus, he decides Ive betrayed him and joins the Netherbrain!??!
It's not surprising to some of us. If you had a good relationship with him it makes sense you're surprised, but if your relationship turns sour after finding out he's a Mindflayer, he calls you horrible things, disses Orpheus, and does a bunch of shift stuff for distrusting him. The only thing keeping him safe from everything and everyone is Orpheus. That's why he wants him caged, so he can be free. You free Orpheus and he's lost, the brain will try to fight him, he has no one left. Basically, he sees it as the only way to survive is by fighting Orpheus in hopes he can recapture him with the brain.
Yeah i think it’s not so unreasonable to trust the emperor when he’s the one that’s actually kept you safe for all this time despite everything, while the only one vouching for orpheus is voss going “trust me bro” after trying to kill you multiple times
joke was on him though, I was doing the dark urge playthrough and I stabbed that boi in the throat after defeating the brain and I went on to claim my birthright as the god of the stars.
@@vinny985 actually if you talked to githyanki in the creche, you will know Orpheus was praised for his compassion
I think the emperor values self preservation above all else..he broke out the nether brain twice so he thinks he has a better chance with it than orpheus who’s personality we really dont know much about until we free him …roleplaying wise…it is an illogical and self destructive thing to do…even if it is the right thing but as a mind flayer right and wrong rarely surpasses self preservation and logic…even emotions…he cant help what he is…hence the manipulation tactics but i think he truly believed himself to be ur ally….which sucks
0:12 dude the emperor is LITERALLY just a reddit nice guy, why did i not see this before
I wish we had a charisma check to get The Emperor and Orpheus to work together, but I'm guessing WOTC had something to do with preventing that considering this game is considered canon to the D&D universe. That's a pretty big development to be put in a video game and omitting it keeps the conflict between the two races alive.
The Emperor has been lying to you the entire time. If you you immediately reject his sexual advances, he becomes hostile and reveals that he didn't have a relationship with Duke Stelmane - he psychically dominated her and used her as a fleshdoll. This is confirmed by the Fifth Edition BG source material, which says that in the years prior to BG3, she was suffering strokes from being possessed by a mindflayer.
Possible spoilers below...
As it should, Illithid are and should stay soulless abominations incapable of feeling or desires, they are not and should not be in any way relatable or redeemable, that would be completely antithetical to what they represent.. Omeluum is the only true anomaly in this game, and honestly was kind of a joke character, as was the whole society. The emperor was just as bad as the netherbrain, just tried to achieve its goals in a different way. Withers basically tells us this, and spoiler, Withers is Jergal, he'd know..
@@shushinfushin1312I don't think Omelum is a joke character by himself, just the Society of Brilliance, and that actually shadows him and makes him feel like as trashy/corny as them.
@@shushinfushin1312 Soulless is a bit of a problem here, especially since 5e still has mindflayer arcanists (uses mixed psyonics & wizard spell casting,) Alhoon - an intelligent undead arcane caster & psyonic caster working towards lichdom, and the illithilich which is a full on phylactery carrying mindflayer lich which requires having a soul to make the phylactery in the first place. This is in Volo's guide to monsters and up to Alhoon's circles in Monsters of the Multiverse.
@@shushinfushin1312 There are litch ilithids, how can that happen if illithids have no soul. There may be more exceptions to that rule than you think.
I don’t see why they all couldn’t of worked together. Also I’m glad Orpheus was made to watch!
Fear and mistrust even though both of them want the same thing and are
gameplay reasons mage vs templar in doa style
The emperor is the quintessential “nice guy” pretending to be good till u go against him
Best ending for me is Free Orpheus -> Orpheus becomes Mindflayer -> Kill Orpheus -> Go to Avernus with Karlach (and maybe Wyll, though I didn't include Wyll because third wheel & I freed him from his pact anyway lmao).
Letting Orpehus run free is potentially bad news. A reunited githyankee empire would turn it's eyes toward invading Faerun. Going with the Emperor just felt wrong, he pressured the player so much to become an Illithid after so much refusal, and I dislike the way he acts when you go the Orpheus route, even volunteering to help the elder brain (wtf?). His ultimate end goals are pro illithid and Wither is also confirming that Mindflayers do not have souls pushed me that way.
Still I hope for the day for the definitive edition, it looks like there's a ton of cut content toward the end of the game, though really I would love any future dlc for the game.
More epic ending. Play as Lae'zel -> Make deal with Raphael for Hammer ->Free Orpheus -> Karlach becomes Mindflayr (because fuck that returning to Avernus crap, she deserves bettter than that) -> You kill that traitor Emperor, Karlach takes down Netherbrain -> Lae'zel flyes away with Orpheus on her persol dragon -> Unite your people just in time for Most Epic Battle In Existence againts Raphael and 9 Hells.
@@vetrovladwindmaster1724 That's implying that Raphael doesn't get slapped into the dirt by Asmodeus.
@@S3Cs4uN8Asmodeus is a smart fella I wouldn't be surprised if he used Raphael to do something stupid enough for him and his forces to be wiped out by some other enemy of Asmodeus leaving the victor weakened.
@@vetrovladwindmaster1724If Karlach becomes a mimd flayer she dies, the mind flayer is just the tadpole that ate her brain and absorbed her memories.
Hey there, I know your comment is 5 months old but you got the same ending as me and I had to scroll through all these comments to see someone post the same thing I did!
I didn't kill Orpheus, he sacrificed so much for his people and to end it all after his enslavement was too brutal for such a powerful character. The first mind flayers to break from the elder brains were the ones to help turn the tides so having Orpheus living as a flayer doesn't seem too bad (thank you charisma).
I didn't include Wyll either, he would watch and that would get weird. I loved the ending the way we chose it, just felt right. Now if only I had better reputation with Astarion earlier on and he didn't have to become the vampire lord. Oof.
I honestly like that Orpheus has a little temper tantrum after you free him. It makes his alliance feel way more genuine than the Emperor manipulating you the whole time. By contrast, Orpheus is completely upfront.
I stole the gith egg and he said he would strangle me right there If the nether brain wasn't a priority and my character said something to the effect "yeah yeah I was manipulated, can we move on" 😂 Even funnier by the end of the fight he called me his hero and savior and said he will honor us and never forget us, a swell guy all around, unlike Squidward
The emperor: “I am your knight in shining armor”
My Tav: “you literally threatened to force me to utilize the astral tadpole when I refused to become illthid, you made a meat puppet out of duke stelmane, and have demonstrated that you’re no different from other illithid. You are a scheming monster that would kill everyone in sight if it meant your coward ass could live.”
That line was so condescending and manipulative
I never aquire the Ring of mind-shielding from the Mind Flayer in the Under Dark. I feel like that plus a high charisma role would have been a nice hidden option to free Orpheus and still be allied with The Emperor
With everyone saying “he’s being unreasonable” and “balduran wouldn’t do that” and stuff like that, it makes perfect sense that he would. He’s a mindflayer, just because hes free from thralldom does not mean he’s not changed at all. Being an ilithid changes how you think and your goals and the ways you achieve them. Deception and self preservation are key aspects of being ilithid, and the emperor shows both of those. It makes sense that he would rather become a thrall to the brain than be killed by Orpheus - his self preservation is above all (hence him killing Ansur.) ok rant over
It makes zero sense. Stop making excuses for Larian's bad writing.
He could have just float away and hide in the Astral Plane and lay low for some time. It's established that the brain doesn't reach him there (except when it does, becaus Larian writing).
@@Rzepik Also it doesn't make sense since his main goal from the beginning was to make sure he can't be enslaved by the elder brain anymore. So why would he go back to it, let it win the fight, take the crone and therefore gain more power to control him as a Illidith? Bad Writing indeed.
@@Rzepik Doesn’t it not reach him there because he’s using Orpheus’ power? If we were to free Orpheus and leave the Emperor without that protection, he would still become enthralled no?
@@SerPandemonium In the game and in the general lore it's distance related.
Being in another plane is a pretty good way of keeping the distance.
@@Rzepik from and elderbrain, sure. from a nethier brain... thats a different kettle of fish.
“You enjoyed me.” 🤣 also, Orpheus knows you slept with a mind-flayer? Damn.
He saw everything
@@MrNoot39449he saw it from his cuck sphere
@@MrNoot39449how 😅
@@Zephirah He's a powerful psychic
@@MrNoot39449 Oh indeed 😶
I really don't get why we couldn't have a temporary ceasefire between the Emperor and Orpheus, especially since he immediately says "hey, we'll need a mind flayer to do this". Like, the emperor might have taken advantage of Orpheus' power, but he was as against the elder brain as anyone could be. He's a mind flayer that's willing to be an ally. If he'd stuck around for a little bit, it could have been him to bring it down, alongside Orpheus.
i wish there was a way to make these two cooperate as some ultimate good ending
As soon as I met the real emperor and talked to them I knew they couldn't be trusted. They've been using you to their own end the entire time, outright lying about anything that might even have you consider other options, and basically gaslighting the player. It immediately made me look around for other options.
I haven't trusted him since I tried to use the elevator to go back to the underdark too many times and he just let me get turned into an illithid.
He is a fallen man. SO many hints through the game as too the things he has done.
First off he wasn't just an adventurer, he was Bauldur. As in he was the founder of the city the game is based around.
He got infected and escaped. He killed his best friend the dragon.
He founded that underground group and that duke he loves so much im pretty sure its implied he made her his Thrall as she had a stoke one day and usually did what he wanted.
The emperor is a good man corrupted, if you let yourself become a mind flayer the game literally says how you start looking at people as tools to manipulate so obviously that is what happened and Baulder stopped being the hero he was and never even realised how far from his path he went.
@@h.walker1332True, I think simply transforming into a mindflayer would change how you view the world. You might not lose yourself entirely, but you’d probably start thinking you’re on a higher level than other beings.
@@anubis7457 well, no, it's far simpler and more sinister than that, it didn't "change" how "he" viewed the world, Balduran no longer existed, the Illithid that birthed from his corpse simply had Baldurans memories, that's how it works
@@shushinfushin1312 If someone has all of your memories and no others, that person is another you, imo.
As much as I don't like this outcome, but... Karlach is doing what she feels is necessary.
As with all things in life, "you can't save them all."
So we have two walking bombs to have in our party or we do the change our self. I think there is one option where the prince does it too. Going to be many play throughs...lol
there is acutally a semi 1/2 good ending for karlach to survive .1 Be her lover 2. free Orpheus 3. When she is about to explode tell her to go with you together into the hells ( the half same option if saving Orpheus and having will in Party then they both go into the Hells without you even if you her Lover). She still hates it but buys more time to live on and is either in Hardship with her loved one or Helping killing other Devils.
You can convince Orpheus to become the Mind Flayer instead if you have the Orphic Hammer. That way none of your party members need to die/transform.
i just hate that you're forced to accept the fact that not only will she die, but she will be in enternal torment as the puppet of Zariel.
@@Justaguywithglassesok If she goes back to Avernus alongside yourself or Wyll, then she'll likely not die or be enslaved again. She's become far too strong for that IMO! But it's left ambiguous. It would be grounds for a good DLC/sequel/spin-off/book tbh!
More context as to why the Emperor doesn't want to free Orpheus: the Emperor has been killing Orpheus's honor guard behind the scenes the entire campaign and a bit before it too. The intellect devourers that fight with you when you first see the Emperor without a disguise are likely from the Gith warriors he's been killing. These warriors have been trying to free Orpheus for literally hundreds of years and the Emperor has been slaughtering them right in front of him. I feel like this isn't mentioned much.
You don't need to eat in the Astral Plane, but the Emperor loves eating brains so much to the point that he had special recipes in his hideout for preparing them. When there's an opportunity to eat a fledgling mind flayer's brain in act 3 he's jealous as hell. He probably (speculation) ate Gith brains just for pleasure right in front of Orpheus (who can see everything that happens there despite being trapped). There's no way Orpheus would allow the Emperor to live even after the Netherbrain was defeated. He's committed crimes against his people.
And it's really easy for the Emperor to just give into the Elder Brain's call. Mind flayers are literally created to be dominated by Elder Brains. His body physically WANTS to return to the Elder Brain and it's something that any independent mind flayer constantly struggles with.
The emperor really feels like a kid throwing a tantrum for not getting his own way. He's basically like "I'm gonna let the entire world become slaves because you won't let me kill this guy"
Honestly, Emperor didn’t even give us a chance to persuade him to free Orpheus. His switch to the dark side just showed how unreasonable of a fellow he really is, so I’m glad I chose to go against him and free Orpheus.
I'm blown away by the cheer amount of complete different endings you can get in this game.
cheer
The Emperor was NEVER one of the good guys; he was manipulating you in every way he could think of right from the start. There’s plenty of hints scattered around the game to that effect, but for me, the most damning moment came in clearly on my second play through.
When he tries using the old honeypot strategy on you, call him a disgusting freak and tell him that you hate him. That angers him enough to finally let the mask slip, and he reveals what he REALLY did to Duke Stelmane to get her on his side… Wyll hints at it, but the Emperor outright confirms he brainwashed her and caused permanent mental damage. He then tells you that he’s done playing nice, you’re his slave, and you’ll do whatever he tells you to if you want to live.
He also threatens to forcibly transform you into a mind flayer and damn your own feelings on the matter, if you’ve still been resistant to the idea.
I choose to side with the emperor in the end your kinda getting a better ending compared to orpheus plus I passed his speak check so I didn’t evolve
Still don't see why this means the Emperor just abandons us.
Because he also wants to survive and the Githyanki certainly won't let him out of principle. Also the Emperor is still a Mindflayer and since he has no reproductive organs or drive, nor any partners to live out his days with, power is probably the only thing of interest left to him. So he's likely in it for selfish reasons and only wants to stop the Netherbrain because it would also end his individuality and free will of which he is so fond of. As a Mindflayer, he still is an abomination feared and rejected by pretty much any other intelligent race on every plane of existence, no matter his personality and somewhat good natured disposition. So what future would he have?
@@axelhopfinger533 Yeah, but as we learn, Orpheus honours Tav or Karlach if they decide to become a Mind Flayer and save the world. If the Emperor stayed, surely Orpheus would honor his rebellion too.
@@bessieburnet9816 Or maybe not after what the Emperor has done to Orpheus, prolonging his captivity to use his power for his own gains?
@@bessieburnet9816but that's in hindsight in the perspective of a player. The Emperor does not get the benefit of hindsight cause he lives in that moment, not ours.
Plus he was misled by the Netherbrain, making him worry about orpheus
@@matthewvillanueva4420 indeed. i suspect it was a bit like Denethor, Sauron, and the Seeing stones. Sauron let Denethor see what he WANTED him to see...only the worst possible options, and it poisoned his mind.
Doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. He orpheus claims that if you would have surrendered to his honor gaurd, then they would have given you an honorable death right? Then he says his honor guard would have freed him. But that is not true, his honor guard wouldn't be able to free orpheus without the hammer. Even if they managed to kill the illithid it would not matter. Orpheus was a prisoner long before the illithid was in the prisim. You would think he would be happy you freed him, and happy you are supportive of him considering his throne was taken from him and he was in prisoned. Honestly he sounds extremely ungrateful for a superior being who was imprisoned for a very long time.
i'm thinking that the Prince is imagining you coming to his realm with the hammer and killing his honor gaurd all at the same time instead of how it actually happened.
Yeah I wish you could have snapped back against Orpheus when he pulls the "You only freed me because it was convenient" nonsense.
Orpheus, bro, I broke into a devil's fortress and killed his ass to fetch the only weapon in the multiverse capable of getting you out of your torture bubble! You think that was _convenient?_
Voss was right about him being a bit grouchy.
I reloaded a few saves and tried many different paths. I think I was satisfied freeing the prince over everything else. He seems chill AF in the end.
Save scummers
@@GenshinCouldNever97 Hypocrites
@@GenshinCouldNever97Cry about it
@@GenshinCouldNever97not everyone has time to play the game over and over
23:59 "I will neither forgive or forget your abuse of my powers"
00:00 "Jhe'stil, my liberator!"
All the time I keep thinking, "Yep this sounds like the perfect manipulation plan. Betrayal doesn't come after you feed a staving man, it comes once that man survived and built something of himself."
alot of people here should do a playtrough where you pick the untrusting options with the emperor, and see what he does and shows you when you ask him for the truth, it really makes you see things differently
What, that he's Balduran and freed himself from the mindflayer colony through his force of will and tried to lead a normal life as a low level politician?
@@PaladinLarec a "normal life" by mind controlling the woman he said was helping him and anyone else who found out he was a mind flayer and threatening the player calling them his thrall and that they should be lucky he changed bis methods, so yea the dream of the "good balduran mind flayer" is pretty much just that a dream, withers doesn't lie, his soul is gone and so is all that made him balduran
@@JellyGomas Then of course lies to you and says it was a mutual and even romantic relationship, the implications of that are VILE. Emperor is awful. Perhaps a lesser evil than some, but it shouldn't surprise anyone that he would turn his back on you at the mere possibility that Orpheus would kill him.
"You fornicated with a mind flayer!"
*Fun Fact: The voice behind this mind flyer Emperor is the SAME VOICE behind the*
Emperor in Star Wars: The Old Republic game.
The Emperor is evil, Balduran is long gone, (I can't believe what Larian did to that character among others).Everyone around him died over the years, in 'mysterious' circumstances. You can find correspondence of him colluding with Gortash as well. And anyone who believes a mind flayer can beat a dragon in a fair fight is gullible enough to believe he's trustworthy. It's always been his way or the highway.
I mean, WotC has said the game is cannon. So that is how bauldur is canonically.
@@infernez I think this poster is simply unhappy at the retcon. Retcons are (arguably) canon but not everyone is happy about the changes involved.
@@BigSlimyBlobwhat exactly is it retconning?
@@AstralBelt Retcon stands for "retroactive continuity". It's what happens when canon is changed by the official source of the media.
For example, say there's a book villain that everyone liked but who canonically died. Later, the writer decides to bring the villain back. So the writer releases a new book in which the villain reappears and "reveals" that he made a clone of himself to fake his own death at the end of the previous book.
That's retconning, and we're supposed to accept that the villain really never died, even if the author previously confirmed that the villain died and didn't intend to bring him back.
Or the same author could reveal that the beloved hero of the first book actually died shortly before the end of the book and was replaced by the villain who took his shape. What looked like a happy ending now becomes the villain's victory.
Retconning is a dangerous tool because it changes existing media in ways that can ruin it. If you use it too much (like in comic books) no one will know what's real and what isn't anymore. And if you keep "building backwards" with retcon it can get pretty silly, like what Blizzard has been doing with the Warcraft franchise.
And you don't need to retcon to ruin a character. You can just keep releasing new stuff in which the character is worse than they initially seemed.
@@BigSlimyBlobWhat Forgotten Realms lore is Baldur's Gate 3 retconning?
I'm so torn. On one hand, the Emperor DOES help you throughout Act 1 by protecting you from the Absolute via Orpheus. The Githyanki are also cruel bastards. If you follow Lazlael's questline, they try to kill her, and you, just because you have a mind flayer tadpole (also, the gith god is basically just a high level spellcaster and not a god). And Orpheus' monks start punching the shit of you out of principle.
However, it is true that the Emperor does use you as a tool and manipulates you in order to further his goals of destroying the Absolute. Even though he's Baldur he's an illithid, and its their nature to try and enthrall people. He even gives you the option to be a partial illithid.
It does feel like the game pushes you towards free-ing Orpheus. However, the only reason why the Emperor decides to side with the Netherbrain is because without Orpheus he physically can't resist its power. There's a book you find which confirms that without Orpheus the Emperor would just be enthralled. The only way he escaped its clutches is by being far enough away from it in order to regain his personality enough to fight back.
The truth is: having the prism and concious Orpheus in it would probably end the same way - he will protect and guide us. The Emperor plays to survive and protects us for the very same reason, nothing more. He's liar, usefull as an ally, but a liar from the very start.
Githyanki are really racist too
@@AlexAnder-dh8qz the issue I think is that the githyanki are cruel bastards and would gladly slaughter us for having a tadpole instead of helping us. Orpheus' monks didn't think twice before attacking us and the emperor for being ghaik. What's makes you think Orpheus wouldn't have just left us to die? The only reason why Orpheus keeps helping us in the end is because we betrayed the Emperor and freed him. It's hard to say for sure that the story would've been the same if we just had Orpheus with us from the beginning.
@@nightrunnerks Yeah, there is a reason that gith almost rhymes with pricks...
I don’t think the game pushes you in any direction, sometimes desitions just suck
I actually kinda get why The Emperor isn’t open to freeing Orpheus. Its too much of a risk and you can’t convince him otherwise. If player is wrong and Orpheus won’t listen to reason it’s over.
Think about the emperor leaving Orpheus being held captive for years. It's true that Orpheus can cooperate with you even if he has a larva, but he would never cooperate with the emperor.
The dude is crazy. He is Baldur himself but all his old principles are gone. He even killed his best friend.
IT isn't Balduran, IT is a mindflayer, IT killed the dragon Balduran used to call his best friend, IT is not Balduran, so many people miss the lessons withers tries to teach us throughout the game, mindflayers do not have souls, and they can not have feelings or desires, we were duped, it's that simple
@@shushinfushin1312 it is balduran lmfao.
He is the adversary.
Obviously with time he changed and become more selfish and corrupted by power.
If mindflayers can become a lich, they have souls.
@@trollzynisaacjohan1793 Jergal literally tells us they don't have souls, you're just wrong..
@@shushinfushin1312 Then what in the fuck is an Alhoon. A mindflayer liche. How does one become a liche. They put their soul in a phylactery.
I'm going to take decades worth of lore over this game.
I rest my case.
@@trollzynisaacjohan1793 the game is canon though, and Jergal claims they do not and can not have souls, whether that's a retcon or not, I trust the word of Jergal more than I do some vague records of some loon
The whole 'we need an illithid to fight the netherbrain' thing was so stupid. At least let us make the choice not to have any illithids at all for the final fight, even if it ends up being a bad one
Yeah. I honestly cannot understand why Orpheus had to turn into mind flayer if he already has such enormous powers that protected us the whole time.
For the sake of bitter endings
Orpheus is being kind of douchey in that last part. How does he expect his honor guard to freee him without the Orphic Hammer? They failed for thousands of years! If he knows about the nether brain how can he justify letting his honor guard kill the only people who can stand up to it??
Same thoughts, man. I was so pissed. Bad writing, I guess, but anyways. It's so fooked up. You've been in that prison for how many years? How do you expect to your precious "honor" guard to free you without tool? Where have they been all that time? Why didn't they free you early? How do you expect them to get that hammer, if the only thing your guard is capable of - is to beat $h!t out of someone? Becoming an illithid would be upgrade for them, more brains. Maybe they will learn how to say "hello".
And those hubris and ungratefulness... we did suicidal mission for getting hammer... did all that job. Only to get that attitude as "thanks".
"I'm obliged to overlook your transgressions." My god. I don't need any leniency and forgiveness from such prick, who are supposed to be main force against nether brain, but blame the only one who saved them. Utter stupidity.
Kind of like Game of Thrones where for most of the game the writing and storytelling is excellent but then, at the end, it you're left with a "WTF just happened"?
“You went through a lot, so I’ll ignore that” fucking kills me each and every time 😭😭😭😭😭
Being honest, the Emperor joining the Netherbrain is the most non-sensical shit possible in this game.
It really doesn't make sense that this MF escaped the control of it twice, fought to destroy and be freed and when you say "Nah I can't kill that man" he just looks at you and say "Nice them I will enslave myself".
Like ?????
It just gets worse when you finish the game with Illithid Karlach and Orpheus is happy and praising to see a good-hearted Illithid that is willing to help, fight and even saved his race.
The choice was to either die there or get enthralled until he could find a way to escape. He could see through our eyes as we destroyed;
Every Chosen of the Dead Three
An Archdevil (Raphael)
and everything that basically our character came across.
@@backsurpriser7470 Idk, it doesn't feel right neither on character.
He literally choose to be enslaved because we said "Are you sure we can't find another way and save all people of both sides?", even after during many times during the game letting we do whatever and we becoming allies.
At least they could have made some type of reaction for him.
Like when X character aprooves your actions, you know. And if his moral with us was high enough, he would trust and at least try.
@@blueveil3277 it makes sense when you do the emperor ending though, it tries to take control no matter what, that was its goal all along I suspect. Orpheus would guarantee that would never happen whether Orpheus would kill it or not, joining the netherbrain(again btw) would at least possess a chance it could happen in the future, at least that's my guess as to its thought process
Why it get worse with illithid karlach? At least she got to leave right?
@@backsurpriser7470Nope.
It's established that he's outside of brain's control in astral plane.
He could just fly away and lay low there.
It's a fookin Astral plane, you can hide there forever. You don't age, you don't starve.
Stop making excuses for Larian. Writing never was their strong suit.
As Gale or Laezel this is the logical outcome.
I know this is impossible and illogical, but I really want to save as many people as possible :(
I always hated games where every one had a happy ending. You know what this game is starting to make me feel more and more like from the past. Sad thing is it's one of the company's complaining about how good it is and it shouldn't be the standard. It's the standard a lot of these companies made names of themselves long a go and forgotten. This reminds me of the endings of Dragon Age: Origin. There where so many options and most of them wasn't the complete happy ending.
@@likeorasgod Most of the major games I played have a bitter sweet ending or one that's barely considered good at all. The main character dies or most of the world is destroyed
Yeah me too, I loved working hard in Mass Effect series to get the best possible outcome!
@@likeorasgodI don't understand why you hate games where everyone gets a happy ending. I always prefer games where everyone gets a happy ending or at least obtain the best possible happy ending. Do you hate happy endings because you love evil winning or something?
@@korhddrebirth7778It’s documented in several studies that people with easier lives find sad/grim works more entertaining while those with harder lives enjoy happy/comedic works.
Think of it historically, even. Tragedies are the favorites of the elites, while comedies were the favorite of the commoners. People crave the novelty of the rarer emotion… if you don’t feel true despair often, then it’s an interesting emotion. If you aren’t often happy and satisfied, then it’s nice to feel.
The first time I did this I thought I made a mistake. But then I thought about the number of times he deceived you, killing ansur, etc. And based on whats in one of the books, is who infected you in the first place. Screw this guy.
It's funny because there's a book right in the Emperor's lair kn Baldur's Gate explaining you can't trust Illithids and they'll always manipulate you, and the only way to not be manipulated is to avoid them or have very strong friendships xD
Kind of a cute, but poignant way of telling you what's what lol
This was my choice, one he calls himself ‘Emperor’ and two I wasn’t going to end up like his Dragon. The fact that he joins the brain said it all. Great ending too.
He probably soiled his tentacles when he heard the Elder Brain say she freed him intentionally to find a group of adventurers to come and free her, his reaction to that information already signaled me to his betrayal
emperor is being dumb for no reason and orpheus literally the real ally he always seeking for.
Also the Emperor: manipulates Stelmane to create his association and to make her fall in love with him, kills ansur, lies to you from the beginning
I don’t know but I was pretty disappointed that the game forces you to have an ilithid for the final fight…
yea there should be different final bosses depending on the decisions you make. And i dont understand why baldurs gate 3 didnt take the "faction " route. Not in the typical sense of having to go to a guild to get quests, but you should in the end, need to end up taking a side, and no not just 2 sides with minimal changes in end result. I mean there should be 3 or 4 different characters( end bosses) each trying to get power, and you can decide to help one of them, betray another, or decide to try and claim the power for yourself. That would be epic.
There should be a dark lord end boss, or you can fight the queen, or you can go inside and take out the illthid. it would be so much better, and it would make more sense
The Emperor: “If you can’t beat them, Join them.”
He took it a little to seriously.
This is perfect solution. Karlach alive, prince to. I will choose this path. Thank you
What will happen to Emperor，will he die？
I mean idk. It means karlach loses her soul
@matthewvillanueva4420 life will show. She is glad, I'm glad that it
@@matthewvillanueva4420 not really. You keep it once transformed into a squid. Ophelius from the Underdark is a good indication. You are still yourself. And that ilithids prefer to live in psychic communions doesn't mean they are losing original self completely.
@@MaximilianBrandt I think even if you maintain cognition and personality, your soul is still gone. Withers said so
Orpheus is making me root for the Netherbrain. So unappreciative. Then again, that's a Githyanki for you.
the only trustworthy mindflayer is omelumm and i stand by it
I think my biggest gripe with the game was how much we had to rely on The Emperor the whole time. I wish he wasn't the actual reason we were being saved and instead it was more him just abusing the power Orpheus had, I mean it is that too but you can't just off the guy and use that power for yourself. Just makes a lot of playthroughts awkward, like Durge and Githyanki just casually going along with him until this moment.
I sided with Orpheus. Getting the hammer was honeslty just because I wanted to see and fight against Raphael - but once the end came I freed orpheus....and he took the mindflayer transformation for me. He's literally a selfless hero and the Emperor has lied about him to you so you'd side with him.
knocked him unconscious in the last fight just to spare him. Apparently that didn't matter in the end. Wish Larian would have taken that into account to see what he would say after.
If you get to this point without consuming any tadpoles, and without partaking with Omellum's potion neither the gith tadpole 'extractor', does Orpheus reacts differently?
I don’t believe so. It seems they may have cut the ending for staying completely clean
i think it still the same since you are infected from start even you are not using it power
"My" Omellum died I think in that iron prison.
He does not. I went full no illithid stuff on first playthrough for roleplay reasons and it doesn’t really change anything anywhere in the game (as far as I’ve seen).
@@theantibulliranger1580 that's beyond sad :(
Orpheus probably has the most justified anger. We spend the whole game running around with the box lol 😂
Question if anyone knows, but does Gale offer to detonate his bomb on the Orpheus route? Or just the emperor route? So you dont have to turn anyone into a mindflayer
Gale suggests it but Orpheus doesn't trust that it will work since he "does not know of this orb" and insists that having a mind flayer is the only guarantee.
He does. Didn't try picking that option though.
he suggests it, and you get the option before you climb it at the very end even though orpheus doesn't trust it
Gale does offer to detonate the bomb, but someone is still forced the become a mindflayer no matter what. You can also still get the option to detonate Gale's orb before climbing the brainstem (killing only himself) and doing it in the middle of the final encounter (killing the entire party with some extra lines about how the fight is turning bad and exploding is the best option, godspeed friend)
I was really hoping this would work, sucks that it doesn’t
I think him joining the netherbrain is just another gamble for his alien logic and not as far fetched as ppl think, i mean he broke free twice, he prolly thinks he can again eventually
it's quite impossible for him to have a third instance because this time: It's a netherbrain, and a third party non-existing, but your insight gave me a realization despite act 3 being a bad writing; bias. We tend to have bias at some point. Mind flayers are soulless and emotionless. If bias exist in their pure logical conclusions, it's due to their knowledge and understanding. "If two instances occur, why won't a third occur?"
Dude saves me to manipulate me and use me as a damn lapdog to do his dirty work. I get up and save his ass from the honor guard, ignore all the red flags until I get the means to actually have a thought for myself.. Then he has the audacity to be like "ugh that wasn't very cash money of you twin" and goes to back up the damn brain in the final battle. If I was able to Id start every file by telling this fool to scram.
I love how the detect thoughts chat dialogue option just makes you go insane essentially since your probably seeing the far realms.
This choice is so artificial. He does all this 4d chess trying to defeat the absolute and now he just says "guess I'll join them then lol" because he doesnt get exactly what he wants? Doesn't make any sense
He just wants to live more, he doesnt care that his an ilithid, "SPOILERS" but since you might of missed it or didnt see the connection, he even killed his best friend to live
@@Sivart.He kills his best friend because his best friend was about to kill him. I dont think thats really his fault. And if he didnt care about being part of the hive mind then why did he break free twice?
i mean he could of just left rather then kill his best mate, like you said his broken free twice before, why not 3 times, Might not be able to considering it was his best mate that broke him free. one of the times im pretty sure.@@BingusMax
His friend tried to kill him in his sleep. Thats not the kind of confrontation that you can just walk away from.@@Sivart.
Ah i thouht the Emperor read his mates thoughts. like thats what he planned to do@@BingusMax
Yeah sorry, nothing is worth one of my party becoming a mindflayer lol. Especially Karlach. Side with emperor, no one has to be a mindflayer 🤷🏼♀️
a lot of people don't want the you get railroaded to have an ilithid for the finale thing and i do understand that. it does have a small (and i do mean small) amount of mass effects 3 ending to it.
so who knows maybe some brilliant modders can make a true happy ending mod where you can fix karlach and take on the end with triumphant glory.
i have enjoyed bg3 and dont need a perfect ending but to be fair my favorite feeling in an open ended rpg has always been to reach the end having done everything i can and seeing a job well done without regrets (less realistic but still nice).
There’s more of XCOM: EW: aliens on the starships are abducting people, the opposing party is led by a mysterious man, and in the finale the specially trained psionic volunteer completes a suicidal mission.
I wish there was a way to free Oprheus and have Balduran team up. I guess he did trap him in the first place so they would be at each other's throats.
Ran through every situation in my head about this. Freeing Orphues and turning Karlach into a Mind Flayer is the only solution that's the best.
Emperor be damned. The Comet be damned as well. But, its best to set aside the differences and kill this giant threat than kill each other
Turning karlach into a MF? You're a monster
@@TheGerbennos why? Zariel cannot claim her soul if she has none.
@@vileluca No where does it hint that she becomes Zariel's slave again. Her and Wyll became besties and killed demons until they can get her a new heart in my game. Orpheus was a much easier choice. I don't know him, he straight up says he'd rather I died way earlier... Why would you rather keep him alive than karlach? I even gave him a chance to put his money where his mouth was, which to his credit he does. IMO that's miles better than letting Karlach turn, I wasn't sure what her outcome would be but I was still hoping to convince her to not let herself just die
I always found it stupid how The emperor continuously says he'll kill us all instantly but if you free him he's like I guess we gotta work together now
I dont want to see Karlch transform...nooo
what about seeing he blow up?
@@likeorasgod Better than watching her soul be obliterated.
I think in lore ceromorphocis destroys your soul anyway.
@@masonlee9423 yeah withers states that mind flayers don't have souls after you beat ketheric. of course that doesn't 100% mean it's true
@@vidfreek he's literally the lord of death right? pretty sure he can tell what has a soul and what doesnt lol
Guys this is larian studios, any voice in your head since the beginning of your journey and claiming to be your ally is not one and will never be one.
Not enough people have seen that Orpheus literally refuses to protect you if you free him early, giving you a pretty solid Game Over. The only reason he helps you now is because there is no other choice. The Emperor was right initially, Orpheus had no want to help you or your party and freeing him now doesnt change that.
How the hell would you even manage to free him early without hacks? You can't break his chains without the Orphic Hammer, which you can't even use until this moment, because The Emperor wont just let you back into the Prism.
@@matthewsimon6170
👀
Exact.
Those that would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.
i love the game, i hate these options. there should be a choice where you can punch these two get along (for now at least). i just want more adventures!
someone needs to teach him that lying by omission is still lying