Thank you for being curious enough about this technology to take the time to make a working model. The design is really clever and complex. I can only imagine how much time and effort you had to expend to get this far. You're the only person I've found who not only went through the process, but shared your results and explanation with the rest of the world. Fascinating stuff.
I'm amazed some people can just spend some time studying a patent and basically become a subject matter experts and be able to give a 50 minute lecture on it.
@@chasebelcher7932 I believe you misread @zaprahzzz's comment. It isn't a criticism - it's a compliment, saying "I'm impressed with how you can study a patent and understand it enough to give an in-depth description of how it works."
This is an incredible video, with a very clean and clear explanation on how the gearbox works and maintains seamless engagement. Such a clever set of engineering decisions from Honda, and you did a great job of adapting the designs to a 3d printed design while maintaining functionality.
Wow! Fantastic job. As a professional gearbox designer I can honestly say you could do very well in this industry (if you aren't already!). Maybe like others have suggested, it might be worth contacting the manufacturers and gearbox specialist if working in this field is of interest to you.
Thanks for explaining this design, something I was not aware of regarding this racing series. This seems to be a more sophisticated variation of the ball-selector gearboxes that were common many decades ago. My early '70s DKW 125cc (6-speed) and '55 Ducati Cucciolo moped (2-speed) both had this type.
It seems to be a re-engineered over complicated version of the ball lock I first saw on a Yamaha 80 around 1968. I guess using free wheel pawls allows them to overcome patent infringement issues? That was a nightmare to set up as a per-teenager without a service manual, at least this looks a little simpler even if it does have a lot more parts to go wrong, no wonder they barely last one race.
I just wanted to say that the camera work is way better than you give yourself credit for in the video. All of the mechanisms and how they worked were clear and easy to see. Further, I don’t know what’s more impressive, the design of the transmission and its nuances, or the fact you were able to concisely explain how it works in a 50 minute video. I swear this video is better designed and more informational than any college lecture I’ve been in
I remember back when this patent came out, trying to figure out how it was working, but as you said nobody really had any type of info, so everyone was just guessing. And now after 11 years you just explained perfectly 😊 I just don't know how to thank you Tommy. Amazing job!!! BRAVO 👏
Really clever design, i imagine how smooth shifts would be with electronic throttle control (automatic rev matching). Thank you for covering it, all tho it was kinda time intensive, but still
Super neat. It has an old school beautiful analog mechanical elegance to it. You did a great job explaining it and building it with a 3d printer. If they have issues building them reliably with precision CNC metal parts the fact that you can get it to work just by looking at patent drawings with 3d prints is a testament to your skills and determination.
Great Video ! I was "engaged" (ha-ha) for the whole time ! The pace you presented it at... I was actually able to understand your explanation of how it works on the first time through ! 😀
Amazing video! I was an engine builder for KTM USA motocross and know first hand that very few people @ the Factory in Austria have ever seen 1st hand the Seamless box and like everything in F1/MotoGP very $$$$
I can not imagine how much time you have spent on this but I have wanted to see how these work for some time. Thank you for all the time and effort you put into this. I thoroughly enjoyed it!!
As I was watching this, I was thinking the same thing as one of the other commenters, wondering what was more genius, what Honda did in the first place (mindboggling) or what you did to bring this to life. A huge kudos to you, and thank you so much. For years I've wondered how they worked.
This is really cool! Thank you for taking the time to not only reverse-engineer the gearbox, but sharing with us as well. It sort of reminds me of a selectable (and more fancy/complicated) version of a two speed RC gearbox. The selectors and having the lower gear keep driving until a higher gear is selected work very similar to this. In RCs the selection happens due to centrifugal force based on input shaft speed, the selectors for 2nd are weighted and spring tension is adjusted until they are pushed out (and the shift happens) at an appropriate RPM.
Incredibly impressive work putting this into a 3d model! There's an enormous gap between conceptually understanding something technical and actually being able to put it together, and people who only conceptually understand it and decide to stop there don't always realise how much they don't know.
That's amazing! Great job explaining and also converting these drawings into a working gearbox. The only thing I'd love to see is this turned into a full plastic transmission and coupled with an electric motor to really see this in action.
Waaw, i wondered for a long time how the manufacturers managed this, now it is crystal clear. This is a genius invention! Thanks for your informative content video Sir!
amazing demonstration, your a genius mate, its a complex version of a boat winch that uses pawls and springs, the pawls are the drive engagement levers, you couldn't have demonstrated this any better, I hope you are a teacher, love your work mate
Amazing video! I have worked with many transmission but never seen seamless stuff like this. Very clever engineering and VERY clever reverse engineering by you. 👍
Wow, that's really clever. Works exactly like a standard 6 pin cylinder lock. I love seeing old technology used in wildly different applications. Though this application is new, the mechanism is 230 years old
I can't believe someone combined the mechanism of a multicolored ball point pen, a bicycle like freewheeling mechanism with a spring loaded set of levers mounted inside the gears to create this gearbox! This is the second generation seamless shift gearbox patented by Honda with no shift forks either as per their published paper. Only when I saw a working model of it do I finally get it how it is really done! Dang, engineering is cool!
Super impressed by your ability to get all these 3D printed parts actually working and sliding together without binding up, that must have taken a huge number of iterations! Really small contact area between those levers and the tabs on the gears themselves. I wonder if the countershaft gears had a tendency to deform into an elliptical shape under larger torques. I’d imagine there were some very bizarre failures and asymmetric wear patterns on the gear faces, although might not have had time to develop with such a short service life.
Looks like a sophisticated Zündapp 50 cc gearbox; all gears interlocked and one being locked into gear with a set of bearing balls pushed in place with a push-pull rod with a notch inside the axle. The balls acting as a lock for up and downshift.
I can tell they've got parts of the idea from other inventions too. Looks similar to a bicycle hub freewheel, but that only works in one direction and there's no shift. Thanks for showing the details as I was curious about this. It's definitely a lot more complex than the zero shift system which reduces components but is very similar to the usual synchronous gearbox.
This gearbox looks very similar to the Lotus "queerbox" designed by Colin Chapman for his F1 cars in the early 1960's. It wasn't entirely successful, even though Keith Duckworth (of later Cosworth fame) was given the job of making it reliable without redesigning it. The shift mechanism was internal and sequential but not seamless as in this MotoGP gearbox.
Thanks, nice work! The sliding internal engagement has had a lotta variations for a lotta years, just less robust then this. My examples are 50's Zundapp & Vespa.
Hodaka used a simpler version of the same on their bikes in the late 60's, early 70's. Counter shaft and main shaft gears were constantly engaged with each other. Individual gears were selected by a rod that ran through the shaft and pushed ball bearings out to engage a particular gear. It was the simplest transmission to work on, but Hodaka's implementation meant it had to be worked on more often. Nice video.
Hodaka did something very similar back in the 1970s. Instead of pins driving levers, they used balls, which directly engaged detents on the inside diameter of the gears.
German motorcycles already had this in the 50s. In German it is called "Ziehkeilgetriebe". It was used on a large scale, especially in small 50cc motorcycles of the brands Zündapp, Simson and Hercules from the 60s to the 80s.
I appreciate the effort it took to assemble a bunch of patent drawings into a working model. There's a lot of things being re-explained multiple times but it's a good presentation nonetheless.
It happens to all of us engineers while explaining things. In actuality, second gear spins slower than first. The path of least resistance naturally allows the engagement levers to release from first gear while transitioning to second.
This reminds me very much of the 2 and 3 Speed gearbox engagement mechanism used in many Nitro RC cars of the past. The biggest difference between being that the RC models used a "automatic" centrifugal engagement to shift gears instead of the shift rod mechanism. Interesting stuff
I found you to be good at describing what has always been to me something hard to understand -- clutches and gearboxes. (They seem so arcane and rudimentary for what one would consider 'modern technology' and is enlightening because modern technology is sometimes built on very very foundational tech, like gears and ratios." The camera not focusing was sometimes a little frustrating but thats not really your fault. I think you did a great job in describing something that is probably extremely complex.
Fascinating! A brilliant design, brilliant explanation and a brilliant 3d recreation! Thank you. I've been trying to understand how this works since they were first revealed, especially how the gears deal with the back torque of engine braking. The actual bearing surfaces seem quite narrow, considering the amount of power being transmitted. Now, if you could see inside the, (presumed), mass damper device in the Ducati tailpiece and explain that...! Subscribed on the basis of this - thanks.
My brother had a 1962 or 3 Tohatsu 50 street bike that that had a similar system except it used a ball-bearing sphere instead of the dogs(?) that are used here.
The reason for the duplicate pawls is so that there can be a ratchet. This allows two gears to be engaged at once without an explosion. There is literally NO interruption in the torque from the engine to the wheel. I made a relatively long post about it a minute ago. I hope it might not be complete rubbish 🙂
That little design enhancement with the "yellow ring" to avoid partial engagement is *chef's kiss* - my hat's off to Honda. I like how the design doesn't constrain the number of gears. It's also more compact because you don't need space to move gears sideways. I hear they need to "replace pieces" after every race, but the design looks pretty robust. Nothing looks particularly susceptible to wear. You say it's pretty finicky... do you think it's just clearances falling out of spec? I'd hope it wouldn't be an obstacle to eventually mass producing it in 10-15 years for the average bloke on a CBR.
That's awesome. Now add the driving gears and a hand crank to represent the engine. Also a sprocket to the "wheel" and you can make the whole process visible and potentially tangible to less technically minded people...just a thought. Amazing job thou, weldone!
@@nicodesmidt4034 you need multiple rods that can move independently and be spring loaded for the seamless shifting. If you didn't need it to engage the next gear while the previous one is still transmitting torque, then you could do it with a strong singe tube, but it wouldn't be seamless.
well explained... the most credential thing at the end, how the loaded levers can be pulled out of the gear - still thinking about, if that really wouldn´t be possible to do with a classic gearbox setup...
This is a fantastic little video! I'm part of a superbike building student team, do you think if it's feasible that we could make one of those? Thanks!
@@TimmaethBoy Yeah, so in our case we have a 2 year design cycle, and I suppose we'd plan to do something like this only in the next project, so there'd be 4 years! As to money, I suppose machining a lot of these pieces would be expensive, but we could make do. At least I'm very interested in seeing if we could pull it off 😊
This was a brilliant video, u should see old F1 seamless gear box too it was a simple solution not as complex like this mechanism ,they used a double shifter barrel with internal parts exactly like a motorcycle gear box which has a single shifter barrel. And one barrel had odd and the other had even gears and both barrels were linked with each gear having a small angle offset i think 25⁰ . I think tractor trailer gear box were first to build quick gear change gear boxes.
Amazing walkthrough of what all together is a very complex system but broken down into very simple stages. When you compare this to something like a DSG, it’s brilliant in its simplicity. Any ideas on what parts seem like the bits that wear out quickly? Been rumours that Ducati have been developing a version for their top end road bikes for a while, to sell to customers. Can’t imagine we’ll see them until the longevity at least gets close to matching the service intervals of existing gearboxes.
If I had to guess, the parts that would give Honda trouble are the cam rods and levers, but that's purely speculation on my part. I did check out the Ducati patent a while ago to see what they were doing; it's completely different from what Honda are doing at the moment. It'll be pretty cool to see it in public one day though.
a DSG is infinitely simpler than this! Maybe from the outside, this gearbox looks 'simple', but only because the shifting mechanism is within the main shaft. This would be incredibly complex to machine, assemble and have work reliably, plus maintain it.
12:46, it's like a one way bearing engagement, dis- engagement, per gear. I'm surprised this wasn't designed in the 40's or 50's. I have had a idea about using planetary gears in a manual gear box. It was all in my head, and been years, so a lot was lost. I can't recall exactly how I was thinking shifting would happen. But it wasn't traditional hydraulic. However it would be mechanical. Something similar to this . It would make a transmission say, in a car tiny compared to traditional. Something like a model T Ford transmission, only more modern and performance oriented. I was thinking about 8 ratios possibly more. With the ability to use a TCM/ECM together to change the gate pattern. To skip shift without noticing while shifting. Also other fear ratios would be possible, dependant on how the planetary was used, being two ratios possible per planetary. So a 6 or 8 speed could in theory be 12, or 16 speed and possibly more if multiple planetaries are engaged at once. Possibly a ultra low ratio using all, , and a inverted drive for overdrive ratios. It could use 4 planetaries for possibly 12+ gears basically use all for first (except the overdrive) the 3,2,1 and then use overdrive with each gear, splitting the ratio adding a gear. So that's 8 gears plus overdrive. Then the two ratios per planetary. 18 gears, then there is splitting gears , using all planetary gears in alternative ratio. Leaving who knows how many possible gear ratios! It in through could nearly operate as a cvt, with stepped gear ratios close enough the rpm can basically stay steady during acceleration. Using 38 ratios to allow smooth acceleration. It would require a computer to work out the ratio requirement for the given speed and tq requirement vs engine rpm. To select a shift gate with only the appropriate gears available . Also a similar gear box could be used with electric motors to make them more effective in vehicles. Using a couple planetaries .with overdrive making a small motor more capable. Allow a small very high rpm motor to move large vehicle, and still operate at highway speeds. The use of hydraulic power to shift isn't a bad idea. With electric motors a tq converter isn't required . I always wanted a manual clutch with a automatic transmission. Use the clutch for taking off, then shift gears hydraulically . The dampers in the clutch would get a workout. It should be more efficient. Fun to drive. Nothing beats at least 4 Speed manual transmissions tho. ,8speed would be cool. 5-6speed+2-3 overdrives. Or possibly a under drive sub 1st gear, not quite a 'granny gear, for hills and such making it easy on the clutch. Sorry to ramble, have a awesome day!! 🎉
Pretty cool that you built this just from patent drawings, I dont know if you are aware of this but in the motorcycle drag racing world we have been using what we can an over ride transmission for over 40 years, shifts with no power cut, but only for up shifts as we don't need down shifts in drag racing
This is super interesting - I've been curious about it for years. I'm still not clear on if it's possible for the levers/pawls to properly disengage if you upshift while engine braking, or downshift while accelerating.
So, the whole shift mechanism works similar to a pin lock cylinder. Very interested. Cam rod is the key, moving pins that are either engaged or not transferring motion
Amazing mind. Could you please answer my question? I know it is seamless, but since the engagement mech is at an angle, does it mean that there is a small second of time that the gearbox is engaging 2 gears, and that small second it becomes 1:1 ratio?
*That* is exactly what patents are for. You teach the world how to make something cool, you let regular people build it for themselves for free, and in return you have the right to explore commercially for 20 years.
Not only is this a great job of understanding the patent, another killer job printing it, but it's a terrific explanation of what's going on. Thanks. What did you use for the CAD? I'm an OpenSCAD guy myself. I have a Prusa MK3 and a MK4. I've been riding for about 35 years.
shorter stumpier teeth with less interference, and the extra bearing loads are less of an issue than getting maxi strength/min weight from components...
The first iteration cut spark, yes. Those can go on any bike. They make that loud pop for that reason. Newer fuel-injected bikes (especially ones with factory quick shifters) will cut fuel. Because you don't want to be dumping raw unburnt fuel out of your exhaust if you can help it. That's less fun (no pop), but it works just as well.
If I’ve understood correctly when you shift to 2nd the 1st gear lever arm is no longer wedged against the gear. As the arm is spring loaded there is a force holding the arm up but the force from the cam (which is also spring loaded) can overcome this and push it down? Great video.
So when you shift into 2nd, 1st gear is still technically engaged (briefly) because torque is still being applied to 1st gear via the lever mechanisms. When the levers for 2nd start transferring torque to 2nd gear, that naturally takes pressure off the levers for 1st gear since 2nd gear spins faster than first (lower gear ratio number); this causes the levers to release from 1st and 1st becomes disengaged. The result is an uninterrupted shift / no loss of power. The only reason this is all possible and things don't just go boom is because of the interaction between the control rod, sleeve springs, cam rods, and levers. It is all balanced and coordinated to work seamlessly, well, at least when things go well that's what it's supposed to do. Hope that makes sense.
Very nice job! I think of the Sachs ball-detent transmission on steroids. This design could be an electronic transmission. Super interesting. Thank you! I’m a new subscriber.
This was awesome, thank you for taking the time! Incredible printing and engineering skills on your part! Honda, having patented this means that there must be 3 more ways to build a seamless gearbox? (ie, Assuming Yamaha, Suzuki and Ducati all built their own versions?). Can you do a comparison? These boxes are so interesting..
I feel like you could simplify this by using pneumatic activation and plumbing the gas through the shaft. Then you move an inner sleeve to port the gas to actuate pistons to actuate the levers
I do not know what is more genius.
Inventing this gearbox or being able to reverse engineer this from only patent drawings.
Keep up the good work 👍
Excellent video. Really appreciate all the effort you have put in trying to explain a gearbox that the manufacturers would rather keep a secret.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it.
Dude, for how many viewers you have, I’m surprised at the quality of your work. Keep it up. You earned my subscriptions tonight
I love being able to showcase what I find fascinating to others. Thanks for the kind words.
Thank you for being curious enough about this technology to take the time to make a working model. The design is really clever and complex. I can only imagine how much time and effort you had to expend to get this far. You're the only person I've found who not only went through the process, but shared your results and explanation with the rest of the world. Fascinating stuff.
Glad you enjoyed the video.
Excellent video, great to see 2D patent drawings translated into a working 3D model! Fascinating mechanism, awesomely communicated.
Appreciate the kind words. Glad you enjoyed it.
I'm amazed some people can just spend some time studying a patent and basically become a subject matter experts and be able to give a 50 minute lecture on it.
Just fascinated with mechanisms in general enough to go down a rabbit hole and share my enthusiasm with others.
What's your experience with it then? Because if you have zero. Don't comment. I came away from this knowing more than I did before.
Thanks for you and all home engineers 😊
So Nice and well explaned!
@@chasebelcher7932 I believe you misread @zaprahzzz's comment. It isn't a criticism - it's a compliment, saying "I'm impressed with how you can study a patent and understand it enough to give an in-depth description of how it works."
This is an incredible video, with a very clean and clear explanation on how the gearbox works and maintains seamless engagement. Such a clever set of engineering decisions from Honda, and you did a great job of adapting the designs to a 3d printed design while maintaining functionality.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it.
A multi-color 6 in 1 ball pen
🤣that also invented by japanese if my memory is not wrong
That’s what I was thinking too! Haha
You’re great at explaining stuff, thanks for putting all that effort
You're very welcome.
Wow! Fantastic job.
As a professional gearbox designer I can honestly say you could do very well in this industry (if you aren't already!).
Maybe like others have suggested, it might be worth contacting the manufacturers and gearbox specialist if working in this field is of interest to you.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it. We'll see what the future holds.
Thanks for explaining this design, something I was not aware of regarding this racing series. This seems to be a more sophisticated variation of the ball-selector gearboxes that were common many decades ago. My early '70s DKW 125cc (6-speed) and '55 Ducati Cucciolo moped (2-speed) both had this type.
It seems to be a re-engineered over complicated version of the ball lock I first saw on a Yamaha 80 around 1968.
I guess using free wheel pawls allows them to overcome patent infringement issues?
That was a nightmare to set up as a per-teenager without a service manual, at least this looks a little simpler even if it does have a lot more parts to go wrong, no wonder they barely last one race.
1964 hodaka
@@filippostube6533 that's right! That fact was parked far in the back of my brain and needed a push.
I just wanted to say that the camera work is way better than you give yourself credit for in the video. All of the mechanisms and how they worked were clear and easy to see. Further, I don’t know what’s more impressive, the design of the transmission and its nuances, or the fact you were able to concisely explain how it works in a 50 minute video. I swear this video is better designed and more informational than any college lecture I’ve been in
Thanks for the kind words!
I remember back when this patent came out, trying to figure out how it was working, but as you said nobody really had any type of info, so everyone was just guessing. And now after 11 years you just explained perfectly 😊 I just don't know how to thank you Tommy. Amazing job!!! BRAVO 👏
Really clever design, i imagine how smooth shifts would be with electronic throttle control (automatic rev matching). Thank you for covering it, all tho it was kinda time intensive, but still
Glad you enjoyed it.
Isn't that auto blip which is in many commercial bikes?
@@noral342 Auto blipping, yes. This gearbox design, no.
i think throttle control would defeat purpose of this system. Most clever thing about this design is that its gets naturally aligned.
@@alesksander It will not defeat the purpose, just make it even better, because ECU now have to correct rpm much less
Super neat. It has an old school beautiful analog mechanical elegance to it. You did a great job explaining it and building it with a 3d printer. If they have issues building them reliably with precision CNC metal parts the fact that you can get it to work just by looking at patent drawings with 3d prints is a testament to your skills and determination.
Thanks for the kind words.
Very well done Sir! I am looking forward to seeing the final product
Great Video !
I was "engaged" (ha-ha) for the whole time !
The pace you presented it at... I was actually able to understand your explanation of how it works on the first time through ! 😀
Oh you punny.
:) Glad you enjoyed it!
Amazing video! I was an engine builder for KTM USA motocross and know first hand that very few people @ the Factory in Austria have ever seen 1st hand the Seamless box and like everything in F1/MotoGP very $$$$
I can not imagine how much time you have spent on this but I have wanted to see how these work for some time. Thank you for all the time and effort you put into this. I thoroughly enjoyed it!!
A lot more than I'm willing to admit. :) Thanks!
As I was watching this, I was thinking the same thing as one of the other commenters, wondering what was more genius, what Honda did in the first place (mindboggling) or what you did to bring this to life.
A huge kudos to you, and thank you so much.
For years I've wondered how they worked.
Appreciate the kind words. Glad you enjoyed it.
very interesting, you did a great job of explaining this gearbox. your 3D printed model really helped me understand it.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it.
Fantastic effort to explain something really special. Thanks a million
Thanks!
This is really cool! Thank you for taking the time to not only reverse-engineer the gearbox, but sharing with us as well. It sort of reminds me of a selectable (and more fancy/complicated) version of a two speed RC gearbox. The selectors and having the lower gear keep driving until a higher gear is selected work very similar to this. In RCs the selection happens due to centrifugal force based on input shaft speed, the selectors for 2nd are weighted and spring tension is adjusted until they are pushed out (and the shift happens) at an appropriate RPM.
Incredibly impressive work putting this into a 3d model! There's an enormous gap between conceptually understanding something technical and actually being able to put it together, and people who only conceptually understand it and decide to stop there don't always realise how much they don't know.
Appreciate it.
Absolutely brilliant video, thank you for taking the time to produce this. Also shout out for the Gamer's Nexus desk mat! A man of taste, I see.
You're very welcome.
Nice catch on the mat. :)
That's amazing! Great job explaining and also converting these drawings into a working gearbox. The only thing I'd love to see is this turned into a full plastic transmission and coupled with an electric motor to really see this in action.
Hats off to you man for making a 3d model from patents only and explaining so easily❤
Waaw, i wondered for a long time how the manufacturers managed this, now it is crystal clear. This is a genius invention! Thanks for your informative content video Sir!
amazing demonstration, your a genius mate, its a complex version of a boat winch that uses pawls and springs, the pawls are the drive engagement levers, you couldn't have demonstrated this any better, I hope you are a teacher, love your work mate
Actually am one. :) Thanks for the comment.
This video deserves more love ! Great job ! Enjoyed every single minute and learned a lot
Thank you very much !
Glad you enjoyed it!
Excellent video. That's some serious brains to design something like that..
Definitely would love to see some more follow ups to this. Subscribed.
Amazing video! I have worked with many transmission but never seen seamless stuff like this. Very clever engineering and VERY clever reverse engineering by you. 👍
Thanks!
great video, its sick to know how this top level technology works. Looking forward to next video! :)
Wow, that's really clever. Works exactly like a standard 6 pin cylinder lock. I love seeing old technology used in wildly different applications. Though this application is new, the mechanism is 230 years old
a click out of one, two is binding…
@@formbi click! we have selected the green ink barrel...
I just gained 10iq points from watching this.
Thank you so much. Excellent presentation!
I can't believe someone combined the mechanism of a multicolored ball point pen, a bicycle like freewheeling mechanism with a spring loaded set of levers mounted inside the gears to create this gearbox! This is the second generation seamless shift gearbox patented by Honda with no shift forks either as per their published paper. Only when I saw a working model of it do I finally get it how it is really done! Dang, engineering is cool!
Super impressed by your ability to get all these 3D printed parts actually working and sliding together without binding up, that must have taken a huge number of iterations! Really small contact area between those levers and the tabs on the gears themselves. I wonder if the countershaft gears had a tendency to deform into an elliptical shape under larger torques. I’d imagine there were some very bizarre failures and asymmetric wear patterns on the gear faces, although might not have had time to develop with such a short service life.
Wonderfully showed, and explained
Good video! Very good work with the 3D-print and explanation!
Looks like a sophisticated Zündapp 50 cc gearbox; all gears interlocked and one being locked into gear with a set of bearing balls pushed in place with a push-pull rod with a notch inside the axle. The balls acting as a lock for up and downshift.
1964 hodaka
I can tell they've got parts of the idea from other inventions too. Looks similar to a bicycle hub freewheel, but that only works in one direction and there's no shift.
Thanks for showing the details as I was curious about this. It's definitely a lot more complex than the zero shift system which reduces components but is very similar to the usual synchronous gearbox.
This gearbox looks very similar to the Lotus "queerbox" designed by Colin Chapman for his F1 cars in the early 1960's. It wasn't entirely successful, even though Keith Duckworth (of later Cosworth fame) was given the job of making it reliable without redesigning it. The shift mechanism was internal and sequential but not seamless as in this MotoGP gearbox.
Thanks, nice work! The sliding internal engagement has had a lotta variations for a lotta years, just less robust then this. My examples are 50's Zundapp & Vespa.
Interesting. Didn't know that was a thing on older model gearboxes.
Very well made and even better presentation and explanation. Very educational. Learnt a lot from this vieo.
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks. Glad you liked it.
Hodaka used a simpler version of the same on their bikes in the late 60's, early 70's. Counter shaft and main shaft gears were constantly engaged with each other. Individual gears were selected by a rod that ran through the shaft and pushed ball bearings out to engage a particular gear. It was the simplest transmission to work on, but Hodaka's implementation meant it had to be worked on more often. Nice video.
This system not is new. Ducson Repriss, 49cc 1963 have the same desing and this engine (and gearbox) was a copy from the 49cc german engine.
Thanks for that video explaining this extremely clever thing!
Hodaka did something very similar back in the 1970s.
Instead of pins driving levers, they used balls, which directly engaged detents on the inside diameter of the gears.
German motorcycles already had this in the 50s. In German it is called "Ziehkeilgetriebe". It was used on a large scale, especially in small 50cc motorcycles of the brands Zündapp, Simson and Hercules from the 60s to the 80s.
@@schwerti94Yes and the spanish brand Ducson in his model Repriss (1963) copy the Zundap engine. My father raced with one.
I appreciate the effort it took to assemble a bunch of patent drawings into a working model. There's a lot of things being re-explained multiple times but it's a good presentation nonetheless.
It happens to all of us engineers while explaining things. In actuality, second gear spins slower than first. The path of least resistance naturally allows the engagement levers to release from first gear while transitioning to second.
This reminds me very much of the 2 and 3 Speed gearbox engagement mechanism used in many Nitro RC cars of the past. The biggest difference between being that the RC models used a "automatic" centrifugal engagement to shift gears instead of the shift rod mechanism.
Interesting stuff
Impressive you got such a complex design working from 3D printed parts
I found you to be good at describing what has always been to me something hard to understand -- clutches and gearboxes. (They seem so arcane and rudimentary for what one would consider 'modern technology' and is enlightening because modern technology is sometimes built on very very foundational tech, like gears and ratios."
The camera not focusing was sometimes a little frustrating but thats not really your fault. I think you did a great job in describing something that is probably extremely complex.
Would be cool to post the STL files after you’re done just so some of us could have a model of our own. Awesome work!
Fascinating! A brilliant design, brilliant explanation and a brilliant 3d recreation! Thank you. I've been trying to understand how this works since they were first revealed, especially how the gears deal with the back torque of engine braking. The actual bearing surfaces seem quite narrow, considering the amount of power being transmitted. Now, if you could see inside the, (presumed), mass damper device in the Ducati tailpiece and explain that...! Subscribed on the basis of this - thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it.
Damn, you did that all in one take... I'm trying a RUclips video rn and just the intro took me a bazilion takes
Great video! Perfect explanation. You did a great job. Thank you. Seamless gearbox mystery unraveled for me.
My brother had a 1962 or 3 Tohatsu 50 street bike that that had a similar system except it used a ball-bearing sphere instead of the dogs(?) that are used here.
Ducson Repriss, its a same. Copy from Zündap engine.
I worked on the quick shift systems from Muzzy's years ago. They cut the injectors to avoid backfiring. Other systems cut ignition though.
Dual clutch action with a single clutch very cool video
Dig the GN mod mat! Pretty amazing you got all of that from just patent filings...
1962 Capriolo did the same thing with balls being lifted into the gears by a flange on the shift shaft. Way simpler than the Honda system
Problems with balls is- they do it rigidly. The "ramp" allows ring to slip in place by itself for a split second.
The reason for the duplicate pawls is so that there can be a ratchet. This allows two gears to be engaged at once without an explosion. There is literally NO interruption in the torque from the engine to the wheel. I made a relatively long post about it a minute ago. I hope it might not be complete rubbish 🙂
That little design enhancement with the "yellow ring" to avoid partial engagement is *chef's kiss* - my hat's off to Honda. I like how the design doesn't constrain the number of gears. It's also more compact because you don't need space to move gears sideways.
I hear they need to "replace pieces" after every race, but the design looks pretty robust. Nothing looks particularly susceptible to wear. You say it's pretty finicky... do you think it's just clearances falling out of spec? I'd hope it wouldn't be an obstacle to eventually mass producing it in 10-15 years for the average bloke on a CBR.
That's awesome. Now add the driving gears and a hand crank to represent the engine. Also a sprocket to the "wheel" and you can make the whole process visible and potentially tangible to less technically minded people...just a thought. Amazing job thou, weldone!
Has any MotoGP contacted you to become a team member? You're a badazz 💯
Haha afraid not. That would be cool though.
What a great video, thanks for making it!
Thanks!
Seems like the shift rods would be a weak point here. I wonder if it is a common failure.
Exactly, a tube would make more sense to engage the shift pins
@@nicodesmidt4034 you need multiple rods that can move independently and be spring loaded for the seamless shifting. If you didn't need it to engage the next gear while the previous one is still transmitting torque, then you could do it with a strong singe tube, but it wouldn't be seamless.
Excellent work
Thank you.
well explained... the most credential thing at the end, how the loaded levers can be pulled out of the gear - still thinking about, if that really wouldn´t be possible to do with a classic gearbox setup...
This is a fantastic little video! I'm part of a superbike building student team, do you think if it's feasible that we could make one of those? Thanks!
A real-world working version? Anything's possible, but it depends on how much time, money, and effort the team wanted to do something like that.
@@TimmaethBoy Yeah, so in our case we have a 2 year design cycle, and I suppose we'd plan to do something like this only in the next project, so there'd be 4 years!
As to money, I suppose machining a lot of these pieces would be expensive, but we could make do. At least I'm very interested in seeing if we could pull it off 😊
I have worked on a very old Simson moped engine which used that type of gearbox. I think a few other East German manufacturers also used that design
This is amazing work man
This was a brilliant video, u should see old F1 seamless gear box too it was a simple solution not as complex like this mechanism ,they used a double shifter barrel with internal parts exactly like a motorcycle gear box which has a single shifter barrel. And one barrel had odd and the other had even gears and both barrels were linked with each gear having a small angle offset i think 25⁰ .
I think tractor trailer gear box were first to build quick gear change gear boxes.
Amazing walkthrough of what all together is a very complex system but broken down into very simple stages.
When you compare this to something like a DSG, it’s brilliant in its simplicity.
Any ideas on what parts seem like the bits that wear out quickly?
Been rumours that Ducati have been developing a version for their top end road bikes for a while, to sell to customers.
Can’t imagine we’ll see them until the longevity at least gets close to matching the service intervals of existing gearboxes.
If I had to guess, the parts that would give Honda trouble are the cam rods and levers, but that's purely speculation on my part.
I did check out the Ducati patent a while ago to see what they were doing; it's completely different from what Honda are doing at the moment. It'll be pretty cool to see it in public one day though.
a DSG is infinitely simpler than this! Maybe from the outside, this gearbox looks 'simple', but only because the shifting mechanism is within the main shaft. This would be incredibly complex to machine, assemble and have work reliably, plus maintain it.
12:46, it's like a one way bearing engagement, dis- engagement, per gear. I'm surprised this wasn't designed in the 40's or 50's. I have had a idea about using planetary gears in a manual gear box. It was all in my head, and been years, so a lot was lost. I can't recall exactly how I was thinking shifting would happen. But it wasn't traditional hydraulic. However it would be mechanical. Something similar to this . It would make a transmission say, in a car tiny compared to traditional. Something like a model T Ford transmission, only more modern and performance oriented. I was thinking about 8 ratios possibly more. With the ability to use a TCM/ECM together to change the gate pattern. To skip shift without noticing while shifting. Also other fear ratios would be possible, dependant on how the planetary was used, being two ratios possible per planetary. So a 6 or 8 speed could in theory be 12, or 16 speed and possibly more if multiple planetaries are engaged at once. Possibly a ultra low ratio using all, , and a inverted drive for overdrive ratios. It could use 4 planetaries for possibly 12+ gears basically use all for first (except the overdrive) the 3,2,1 and then use overdrive with each gear, splitting the ratio adding a gear. So that's 8 gears plus overdrive. Then the two ratios per planetary. 18 gears, then there is splitting gears , using all planetary gears in alternative ratio. Leaving who knows how many possible gear ratios! It in through could nearly operate as a cvt, with stepped gear ratios close enough the rpm can basically stay steady during acceleration. Using 38 ratios to allow smooth acceleration. It would require a computer to work out the ratio requirement for the given speed and tq requirement vs engine rpm. To select a shift gate with only the appropriate gears available . Also a similar gear box could be used with electric motors to make them more effective in vehicles. Using a couple planetaries .with overdrive making a small motor more capable. Allow a small very high rpm motor to move large vehicle, and still operate at highway speeds. The use of hydraulic power to shift isn't a bad idea. With electric motors a tq converter isn't required . I always wanted a manual clutch with a automatic transmission. Use the clutch for taking off, then shift gears hydraulically . The dampers in the clutch would get a workout. It should be more efficient. Fun to drive. Nothing beats at least 4 Speed manual transmissions tho. ,8speed would be cool. 5-6speed+2-3 overdrives. Or possibly a under drive sub 1st gear, not quite a 'granny gear, for hills and such making it easy on the clutch. Sorry to ramble, have a awesome day!! 🎉
It's really amazing and perfect explanation dude congrats
My kind of nerd. Awesome video dude.
You earned my subscription with this video. Now how about a cvt transmission without a belt or chain!
It's been done before. Look up Nissan Extroid CVT - very limited run back in the day.
Congratulations for your hard work and thank you for the explanation 🙏💪🏽😀
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it.
Pretty cool that you built this just from patent drawings, I dont know if you are aware of this but in the motorcycle drag racing world we have been using what we can an over ride transmission for over 40 years, shifts with no power cut, but only for up shifts as we don't need down shifts in drag racing
Would you share the CAD for this? Awesome
Those cam rods remind me of one of those old Bic multi color pens. Bic invented the seamless gearbox, what you up to Honda?
Great video , where we can find the files of Honda?
patents.google.com/patent/US8616078B2/en?oq=8%2c616%2c078
A man after my own heart
Do you File CAD STP. .STEP to cnc milling i need buy
This is super interesting - I've been curious about it for years. I'm still not clear on if it's possible for the levers/pawls to properly disengage if you upshift while engine braking, or downshift while accelerating.
So, the whole shift mechanism works similar to a pin lock cylinder. Very interested. Cam rod is the key, moving pins that are either engaged or not transferring motion
Amazing mind. Could you please answer my question? I know it is seamless, but since the engagement mech is at an angle, does it mean that there is a small second of time that the gearbox is engaging 2 gears, and that small second it becomes 1:1 ratio?
*That* is exactly what patents are for. You teach the world how to make something cool, you let regular people build it for themselves for free, and in return you have the right to explore commercially for 20 years.
Not only is this a great job of understanding the patent, another killer job printing it, but it's a terrific explanation of what's going on. Thanks. What did you use for the CAD? I'm an OpenSCAD guy myself. I have a Prusa MK3 and a MK4. I've been riding for about 35 years.
I use FreeCAD. Not the easiest thing to learn right off the bat compared to others, but it's community-driven and you actually own the software.
many times motorsports gearsets end up being 25* pressure angle instead of a standard 20* PA. Cool video!
Thanks!
shorter stumpier teeth with less interference, and the extra bearing loads are less of an issue than getting maxi strength/min weight from components...
The first iteration cut spark, yes. Those can go on any bike. They make that loud pop for that reason.
Newer fuel-injected bikes (especially ones with factory quick shifters) will cut fuel. Because you don't want to be dumping raw unburnt fuel out of your exhaust if you can help it. That's less fun (no pop), but it works just as well.
Fantastic video👍🏻
If I’ve understood correctly when you shift to 2nd the 1st gear lever arm is no longer wedged against the gear. As the arm is spring loaded there is a force holding the arm up but the force from the cam (which is also spring loaded) can overcome this and push it down? Great video.
So when you shift into 2nd, 1st gear is still technically engaged (briefly) because torque is still being applied to 1st gear via the lever mechanisms. When the levers for 2nd start transferring torque to 2nd gear, that naturally takes pressure off the levers for 1st gear since 2nd gear spins faster than first (lower gear ratio number); this causes the levers to release from 1st and 1st becomes disengaged. The result is an uninterrupted shift / no loss of power.
The only reason this is all possible and things don't just go boom is because of the interaction between the control rod, sleeve springs, cam rods, and levers. It is all balanced and coordinated to work seamlessly, well, at least when things go well that's what it's supposed to do. Hope that makes sense.
Very nice job! I think of the Sachs ball-detent transmission on steroids. This design could be an electronic transmission. Super interesting. Thank you! I’m a new subscriber.
This was awesome, thank you for taking the time! Incredible printing and engineering skills on your part! Honda, having patented this means that there must be 3 more ways to build a seamless gearbox? (ie, Assuming Yamaha, Suzuki and Ducati all built their own versions?). Can you do a comparison? These boxes are so interesting..
not if they pay royalties to Honda...
I feel like you could simplify this by using pneumatic activation and plumbing the gas through the shaft. Then you move an inner sleeve to port the gas to actuate pistons to actuate the levers
also the spring for the ring (at 32 min) probably cushions the not-dogs slightly when they slam into the lever.
Ok so you did all this in 10 hours? Insane. I couldn't print 1 gear in 10 hours.
Ha I wish. Reverse engineering the papers took at least that long. The prints took exceptionally longer to do.
Wonder when I can get one...