Incarnon Hate Build 2023 (Guide) - The Stalker EEE Spams (Warframe Gameplay)

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  • Опубликовано: 30 май 2023
  • Incarnon Hate Build 2023 (Guide) - The Stalker EEE Spams (Warframe Gameplay)
    By Popular demand, today I'm reviewing the Incarnon Hate. We will do two endgame high level Steel Path builds. One focusing on a standard E combo and one the usual heavy attack build. The Incarnon Hate gets significant bonuses in its incarnon form and is now the best scythe in the game but it will play the same as many, many other melee weapons.
    The weapon is very powerful and fully capable of going through whatever content that Warframe Duviri Paradox can throw at you.
    Warframe is a free-to-play action role-playing third-person shooter multiplayer online game developed and published by Digital Extremes.
    LeyzarGamingViews :
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    #Warframe #Build #Duviri
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Комментарии • 219

  • @beowulfalex87
    @beowulfalex87 Год назад +329

    The very first melee build of leyzar🤩

    • @IIzanagii
      @IIzanagii Год назад +49

      And probably the last💀

    • @tylerivory8852
      @tylerivory8852 Год назад +1

      Actually?

    • @CookTheCrook15
      @CookTheCrook15 Год назад +23

      Probably because he “hates” them

    • @AC-rx6fr
      @AC-rx6fr Год назад +2

      No its not

    • @KoroaWasTaken
      @KoroaWasTaken Год назад +10

      It's not definitely not the first. He's at least made a Gunsen build in the past.

  • @zanuka7487
    @zanuka7487 Год назад +91

    of course the only melee weapons he covers becomes a ranged weapon with the incarnon form lmao

    • @Urssaff
      @Urssaff Год назад +11

      Imagine playing a melee weapon in melee

  • @rvgdustin1670
    @rvgdustin1670 Год назад +118

    What a time to be alive. Leyzar doing a Melee build.

  • @emolookinass793
    @emolookinass793 Год назад +121

    just letting y’all know, there’s an option in gameplay settings where u can melee with left click if u have the melee out, it’s better than E for my fingers lol

    • @unblemished_
      @unblemished_ Год назад +24

      This is true, but be aware that if you are priming with your secondary, you have to switch manually to your primer, which can be annoying for some people. Depending on if you do prime in general or not, this is a good solution. I'm switching back and forth with that setting depending on what kind of weapon I play.

    • @dev-4525
      @dev-4525 Год назад +9

      ​@Bliss you don't have to switch, you can just aim

    • @insomniac162
      @insomniac162 Год назад +18

      I've had my melee bound to scroll wheel for years cant imagine using anything else

    • @nidus_7574
      @nidus_7574 Год назад +1

      i jus use my left click of melee. i aim with q and shoot with right click, makes stuff easier

    • @LironSulimani
      @LironSulimani Год назад +3

      My mouse has these 2 side buttons so I just use the further one and it is just so much better

  • @infinityturtles1130
    @infinityturtles1130 Год назад +34

    In terms of the spaming e macro, I've bound my melee button to my scroll wheel. Much more comfortable than spamming a key or clicking

    • @Me_Myself_Maly
      @Me_Myself_Maly 8 месяцев назад

      Automatic melee couldn’t come any sooner

    • @BrookD.Artist
      @BrookD.Artist 8 месяцев назад +1

      ​@@Me_Myself_MalyThat's a thing?

    • @Me_Myself_Maly
      @Me_Myself_Maly 8 месяцев назад

      @@BrookD.Artist it got announced at this years Tennocon

    • @BrookD.Artist
      @BrookD.Artist 8 месяцев назад

      ​@maly7187 oh nice!

  • @dontlook3879
    @dontlook3879 Год назад +9

    Quickly became my favorite Warframe channel with his acknowledgments of the cringe music that other channels stuff in our faces. Big fan of no BS build videos. Love this guy!

  • @ThePopeOfAwesomeness
    @ThePopeOfAwesomeness Год назад +51

    He actually made a melee video. Nice. The MIGHTY SEER is the best melee. It can also go EEE

  • @tain4388
    @tain4388 Год назад +22

    Disappointed that they're taking a look at the Hate knockdown but not also the Ceramic Dagger's

    • @joshuaanderson7511
      @joshuaanderson7511 Год назад +4

      Because the ceramic dagger is a heavy attack single target weapon, the hate gets AOE on the quick attacks so you would need multiple hits to kill enemies but you can't do so without staggering yourself
      I can easily use the ceramic dagger without sure footed because I'm sniping fools heads with the daggers, not spamming groups

    • @tain4388
      @tain4388 Год назад +2

      @@joshuaanderson7511 the dagger stance has 2 forced slash procs on heavy. If you're only using the projectile, you're missing out. If you're sniping enemy heads with it then go ahead, but it doesn't change the fact that self-stagger on melee weapons is bad game design. Even the Acceltra and Akarius has a foolproof feature to not explode when shot directly under the user's feet. It's obvious that both of the instances of aoe explosion melees are an oversight from DE themselves.

  • @umbranassassin8372
    @umbranassassin8372 Год назад +12

    Ah yes, a melee Leyzar video, all it took was turning the melee into a gun.

  • @TheNeoDaedalus
    @TheNeoDaedalus Год назад +9

    2:54 That was sooo smooth xD Not only the editing, but also the animation playing at just the right time.

  • @alexanderkevin9866
    @alexanderkevin9866 8 месяцев назад +2

    hey, if you're reading this and is a kullervo main, don't forget to use your 1st skill and spam e while using the incarnon form, the crit chance multiplier works on the projectile too!

  • @savagekat8889
    @savagekat8889 Год назад +2

    Literally been looking for this rn HAHAHAHAHA Thank you very much

  • @Jayare175
    @Jayare175 Год назад +17

    Worth noting that on evo 3 the combo duration is not affected by mods so you can use true punishment or corrupt charge and still have that flat 10 seconds of combo on top of your base combo timer.

    • @mfallen6894
      @mfallen6894 Год назад +2

      Or you can just use Naramom and take the extra reach...

    • @lookalike4805
      @lookalike4805 Год назад +5

      There are Very Few Weapons where I can justify True punishment even if I would like to have it 😐

    • @Jayare175
      @Jayare175 Год назад +4

      @@mfallen6894 naramon locks you into... naramon... Maybe think of how you don't have to use naramon after this guy showed us how fast you could build combo? 240% combo count is no joke.

    • @Henrex2000
      @Henrex2000 Год назад

      So it works like every other combo duration buffs

    • @mfallen6894
      @mfallen6894 11 месяцев назад +1

      @@Jayare175 For Duviri Circuit Naramon is the only school that makes sense. Nothing sucks more than losing your combo because you're decree-hunting with a crappy frame and guns, praying for a decree that will get you through the coming rounds.
      If you're still farming Angels of course you'd want Unairu. If you somehow don't have the half dozen other ways to keep your energy up, Zen is the way to go.
      But if the only thing left to do in the game is get these incarnon's and do endless SP missions, which is where I'm at with the game, Naramon's the only one with any function (little as it may be)
      But then this is coming from a solo-only player. Maybe it's different if you play with a squad. Don't know. Haven't done it in 8yrs, doubt I'll be starting any time soon...

  • @decepticonsoundwave297
    @decepticonsoundwave297 11 месяцев назад +14

    I noticed that Stalker's Legacy is actually pretty good, even considering that you have to use Dread and Despair for it. You always have a base 2x multiplier, which means Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds are always active, and it ofc makes your heavy attacks better. Overall a very good upgrade.

    • @queueuof
      @queueuof 6 месяцев назад +3

      yea plus dread and despair both have great incarnons and they get benefits for having the set too

    • @CatTechSupport
      @CatTechSupport 4 месяца назад +1

      "BuT IsH NoOt MeTA!"
      SCREW META! EMBRACE FUN!

  • @Hellgamer69420
    @Hellgamer69420 Год назад

    as this being the first melee build leyzar has done i am happy with this love the build and awesome showcase!

  • @zakw8938
    @zakw8938 Год назад

    I can understand not doing melee vids so, y'know, thanks for this one. Good deal.

  • @dukevonwaffle7319
    @dukevonwaffle7319 Год назад

    Had to do a double take when I saw the title and then your channel, like woah its a melee weapon hahah.
    As always though, good video!!

  • @ChewnaSamich
    @ChewnaSamich Год назад +2

    After I equipped a guandao on volt, and wasn't able to mash E fast enough without try harding for the animation to not break. I just put scroll wheel down as a secondary melee option. My mouse can have a tactile scroll or free spin, so one swipe and it'll continue meleeing. Basically going around the need for a macro with 0 risk

  • @mhelm7842
    @mhelm7842 Год назад +13

    Just a note, under the accessability you can set long press to equal multiple button presses. This can help since you just have to hold e instead of constant clicking.

    • @newbplaygames
      @newbplaygames Год назад

      i never knew that but then again i play the character that make everyone in public leave.

    • @sitruunamehu
      @sitruunamehu Год назад +2

      ​@@newbplaygames it's limbo isn't it

    • @newbplaygames
      @newbplaygames Год назад

      @@sitruunamehu yes

  • @danielssss1342
    @danielssss1342 Год назад +9

    3:53 "and both of these talents are bugged and do not give you 30 base damage" damn another bugged talents, how many is that now?

    • @tonyhowe6431
      @tonyhowe6431 Год назад +5

      Lol don’t act so shocked, it’s part of the WF experience 😂

    • @Qorvex
      @Qorvex Год назад +1

      Classic DE move!

    • @Alaska_Mac
      @Alaska_Mac Год назад

      Why pay your employees to test things when the community will do it for free

  • @xblackxabyssx1983
    @xblackxabyssx1983 Год назад +1

    ive had dread hate and despair for almost 7 years and now have a reason to use them again lol

  • @JSL1CE
    @JSL1CE Год назад

    hate was the only thing I picked up this week & was not disappointed, but I gotta admit I was not expecting to see a melee vid from you though lol. understandable as it'd be the standard cowbarf build basically 90% of the time but I still wouldn't mind seeing reviews from you on just the weapon itself for some of the more unique &/or interesting ones (like this).

  • @yatanui5647
    @yatanui5647 Год назад

    Yeeeyyyyy, finaly Leyzar made a build on the Hate, i love the vid❤

  • @brotatochips1079
    @brotatochips1079 Год назад

    Well, time to wait to get the hate incarnon adapter. I got the Dread and Despair adapters. And I always loved the whole set. Just wish I got a hate riven back then.

  • @ladaas9528
    @ladaas9528 Год назад +4

    Leyzar sounds soooo excited to review a melee weapon!😂

  • @XmortoxX1990
    @XmortoxX1990 Год назад +1

    Reaper Primer 2, now with projectiles.
    I'll get this weapon next time is available and get all stalker weapons to their final form.

  • @varenwilson1514
    @varenwilson1514 Год назад

    Leyzar, i commented a while ago asking you to do builds on the most recent melees (syam etc), and you said you didnt do that on this channel. Well ill say the age of change is upon us

  • @notetl6995
    @notetl6995 Год назад +1

    nice vid, definitely choosing hate this week

  • @nlomano444
    @nlomano444 Год назад +2

    after using the hate as my primary mele weapon for years, i concluded the range is not needed. Freeing up an additional mod slot by removing it is more effective. Using the forward e-spam with no range carries you to then through the enemies, and maintains forward motion to clear faster without needing to stop at each enemy. Works on SP enemies well enough. Though i am curious if the range is applied to the AOE radius of the projectiles now, because if it is, then the Hate will be absolutely busted with range if the player knockdown is removed.

  • @kylejolly7751
    @kylejolly7751 Год назад +1

    Seems pretty effective. Though I mostly just use heavy attack builds on my zaws because of the arcane's. Such as Brave, might, hunt and contagion. Otherwise it does get kind of boring using heavy attacks. Though it gets more interesting if the melee has a quirk. Like the Caustacyst. Gonna see how powerful I can make its acid puddles on heavy with the riven I just got.

  • @kennedyjoseph7398
    @kennedyjoseph7398 7 месяцев назад

    I got my first hate bp today but the damn lich took it. Took that very personal and rush it got him in the railjack and just got to get level 5 intrinsics

  • @nobodyimportant2470
    @nobodyimportant2470 Год назад +2

    There is a bug with the evolutions. I picked the legacy one for leveling and I can't que with the evolved Dread equipped. Every time I try it crashes.

  • @ammazinghors9739
    @ammazinghors9739 Год назад +1

    Using E Spam Macro since 2013 and haven't yet been banned. I think they also said that only "more complicated" Macros get you banned. For example a macro that presses your 4th ability every 18 seconds 2 seconds before time is over etc.

  • @letsgodeezymusic130
    @letsgodeezymusic130 Год назад

    Leyzar i love you my boy 😂😂😂 i got the hate incarnon but didnt get the hate blueprint yet unfortunately

  • @k-disboher1105
    @k-disboher1105 Год назад +7

    as a fan of weapon-usage-balance gameplay, I've always favored HA melees cuz changing your builds just to make E spam more comfortable is just really boring to me
    so until combo 3.0 comes out (balance between gun and melee gameplay building combo), this will be a nice addition to my arsenal especially with the full Stalker setup

  • @MrGlitch420
    @MrGlitch420 Год назад +4

    Hope someone's said something bout the Acks aoe too. Love it,but now I have to use p sure-footed with my valkiity. Before I put it on,a simply slide would send me....I honestly can't say where because the ragdoll was that random. This scythe tho,welp,I'ma have some fun,good thing I somehow kept 3 rivs for it...idk why don't question my insanity. XD

  • @justafox5356
    @justafox5356 Год назад +1

    Can you post your panzer build somewhere? I’m never sure if I should bother trying to build it any survivability or just let it die constantly.

  • @IRMentat
    @IRMentat Год назад +1

    I feel mostly the same bout melee. I was hoping duviri would be a test if melee3.0 but it’s slower and less fun due to the 1 on 1 nature (and the lock-in was obnoxious so I barely used it even in the tutorial). Plus by the time you have 1-2 decrees you don’t need to interact with that system anymore.
    Melee does a job in WF, d first time through the stat chart it outright carried me and many others but outside of a glaive n secondary build on specific frames I mostly just use it for mindless trash clearance in missions I don’t want to AoE everything down via abilities (e.g. interception/excavation relics where you need enemies to corrupt asap before the pug noobs rush the round).

  • @ericfranklin4977
    @ericfranklin4977 Год назад

    I'm glad I picked this weapon frfr

  • @ken1204zxg
    @ken1204zxg Год назад

    nice one!!

  • @mikekutt4867
    @mikekutt4867 3 месяца назад

    Don’t know if you know but if you activate your incarn on hate while on ivara with navigate on you can also throw like that

  • @lucasfraczek4320
    @lucasfraczek4320 10 месяцев назад +1

    My main issue with this thing is the vagueness on the final evolution challenge, when it says Finisher I have no idea if it means a stealth kill or a kill when an enemy gets knocked down. Can anyone help me out and why it's not getting evolution progress?

  • @voodoo_child1124
    @voodoo_child1124 Год назад +1

    History being made here.

  • @sde2349
    @sde2349 3 месяца назад

    i have the incarnon adapter, all I need now is the hate bp 😵‍💫

  • @ZurtfimTBW
    @ZurtfimTBW Год назад

    The enthusiasm at the end of the video is killing me

  • @rodrigoferreira4027
    @rodrigoferreira4027 Год назад +1

    The Bane mods are the bane of my existence.

  • @fratquintero
    @fratquintero Год назад

    Some weapons are more than just tools of destruction. They have a certain charm that sparks imagination and delight. Even if they are not the most powerful, they still captivate the wielder and the observer. But not all weapons are like that. Some of the Incarnon weapons, especially the Hate, are dull and uninspiring. They lack the charm that makes a weapon truly great.

  • @somsiadtomasz
    @somsiadtomasz 16 дней назад

    With Tennokai should I always use heavy attack build? Would it be better to build for status with Melee Influence or Vortex? Espacially that we gat multi hits with Hate with incarnon?

  • @zerovermilion8715
    @zerovermilion8715 Год назад +1

    What if we go leapfrog?
    (Jump -> Heavy Slam -> Rinse and repeat)

  • @feynulseviing6073
    @feynulseviing6073 Год назад

    I kinda was waiting for Leyzar to space out and it cuts to like 30 minutes into the mission of him being on auto-pilot before realizing he zoned out while recording this XD

  • @lastmanalivv4344
    @lastmanalivv4344 Год назад

    I think they should have done the Ack buff and made it for jump attacks & slides. Still gonna use it though cause I got a warcry build on my Excalibur

  • @clemzou.
    @clemzou. Год назад +1

    the thumbnail be like : 'I HATE' 😂

  • @terrence-arveonbrintly6060
    @terrence-arveonbrintly6060 5 дней назад

    Appreciate the my audience isn't 12 statement. Nice to be able to hear you.

  • @brauliocastillo5920
    @brauliocastillo5920 Год назад

    I know this is off topic but the kuva karak should I build it wit status or crit

  • @greatroyalwolf
    @greatroyalwolf 10 месяцев назад

    I wish they removed the selfstagger from ceramic dagger too, pretty neat knife

  • @yumikothecutie4786
    @yumikothecutie4786 Год назад

    I'm personally a Fan of Heavy Attack Builds, but i must say the Light Attack Playstyle looks more fun to me. ^^
    Especially with the Slash Projectiles from the Light Attacks.

    • @yumikothecutie4786
      @yumikothecutie4786 11 месяцев назад

      @WhiteVictimMentality I'll gladly will.
      Good thing i use Revenant Prime as Main Warframe xP

  • @Baracui
    @Baracui 2 месяца назад

    Leyzar, what is the best scythe currently, iHate or Reaper Prime?

  • @jamesm783
    @jamesm783 4 месяца назад

    By the Void, he sounds so depressed at the end there.

  • @tonyliu228
    @tonyliu228 Год назад

    Could add melee speed mod to make the heavy attack animation faster as well

  • @Maverick19789
    @Maverick19789 Год назад

    Got a nice cc cd riven and use arcane strike so I had enough room for viral. It’s a bit stronger with viral on it

  • @Me_Myself_Maly
    @Me_Myself_Maly 8 месяцев назад +1

    A problem I find with most RUclipsrs weapon builds is that they expect you to design your entire arsenal around the weapon their reviewing. At times having to handicap your weapon choice or focus school just to make a certain weapon work at high level. When realistically most people are not gonna do that because they’d prefer to have access to their whole arsenal and focus school of their choosing.

  • @TheWrongNote
    @TheWrongNote Месяц назад

    What melee arcane would you recommend for this?

  • @ankokuraven
    @ankokuraven Год назад

    Leyzar: *does a melee*
    Me 😮: *looks at Incarnon*
    Me: oh its still a ranged weapon.

  • @Dima07071989
    @Dima07071989 Год назад

    Bind quick melee to mouse wheel down - profit, no bans.

  • @solidonaso9142
    @solidonaso9142 Год назад

    Woahh is this the first melee review from you?

  • @anthonylanman46
    @anthonylanman46 7 месяцев назад +1

    Automelee exists now. So no need for macro. This build is now op and good on the fingertips

  • @csparksgaming6835
    @csparksgaming6835 Год назад +1

    You need to do more melee vids please

  • @thimovijfschaft3271
    @thimovijfschaft3271 Год назад +9

    You could use relentless combination and it will help you keeping up your combo with your ranged attacks. It also works with Exalted blade btw

    • @IRMentat
      @IRMentat Год назад

      Aye the ranged attacks themselves don’t trigger the convo counter so more time on combo gives you an opportunity to refresh more easily.

    • @thimovijfschaft3271
      @thimovijfschaft3271 Год назад

      @@IRMentat yeah but this way, you wouldn't need to do contact attacks at all anymore because the slashprocs will keep up your combo.

    • @newbplaygames
      @newbplaygames Год назад

      or just use naramon and slap gloom on melee heavy characters

  • @1LivingCuriously
    @1LivingCuriously Год назад

    Does anyone have the links to his Steel Path Revenant Prime build and maybe his Vulpa? I don't seem to find them when I search thru his video collection. At least it doesn't seem to be obvious to find.

  • @YoJaad
    @YoJaad Год назад

    Never thought I’d see the day 😂 bro sounds heartbroken 😂😂

  • @twitchcrows
    @twitchcrows Год назад

    I can’t wait for hate to drop for me in 2 years

  • @bolt9407
    @bolt9407 Год назад

    I saw "eee" spam and I was lost till I remembered that people play on pc and that E was the melee key.

  • @luckybragg3353
    @luckybragg3353 Год назад

    I thought you went with the dread and despair for week 6.

  • @RedLineOneGC
    @RedLineOneGC Год назад +1

    Leyzar, one question....do the projectiles add to the combo counter or do u have to land strikes??

    • @bholm369
      @bholm369 Год назад

      Yes, they do add combo count

    • @HiaruXD
      @HiaruXD Год назад +1

      No, projects doesn't add to combo counter, you can check at 1:30

    • @bholm369
      @bholm369 Год назад

      @@HiaruXD I did a solo mission trying this. My counter went up...

  • @lsaminatorl
    @lsaminatorl Год назад

    Just waiting to buy a riven then I'll be testing it out!

  • @Fatebringer
    @Fatebringer 2 месяца назад

    Where do you slot a riven in this build

  • @SirKailZ
    @SirKailZ Год назад

    u can make build for Glave? with mods and with riven

  • @freshbazuble
    @freshbazuble Год назад +3

    The regret I feel from choosing despair and dread instead of despair and hate

    • @nguyenhuyduc9151
      @nguyenhuyduc9151 Год назад +1

      Mee too. Dread is boring and hard to use as F. Need to charge, full charge to shot. Why shouldnt i use lex instead of dread?

    • @LeyzarGamingViews
      @LeyzarGamingViews  Год назад

      No worries, the rotation will roll-back around.

    • @newbplaygames
      @newbplaygames Год назад +1

      @@LeyzarGamingViews in 6 weeks....

  • @Maverick19789
    @Maverick19789 Год назад

    Try arcane strike instead of attack speed mod. Still feels very fast in incarnon and saves you a slot

  • @Basically_Anybody
    @Basically_Anybody 2 месяца назад

    I'm pretty sure "only melee equipped" means you can't have a gun in the build, meaning it's about as big an ask as having all 3 Stalker weapons

  • @mohamedeloka2570
    @mohamedeloka2570 Год назад +1

    Finally

  • @technicalcreed7291
    @technicalcreed7291 Месяц назад

    Can you make a 2024 updated video?

  • @MrJfgh
    @MrJfgh Год назад +1

    RIP riven dispositions on all of these weapons :(

  • @TheRealPepsiMan.
    @TheRealPepsiMan. Год назад

    YES!

  • @decepticonsoundwave297
    @decepticonsoundwave297 Год назад

    Kinda regret getting Dread instead of this thing
    Dread is kinda weird-

  • @oniceguard9205
    @oniceguard9205 Год назад

    i use an E spam macro because after one or two hours of spam my hand hurts (and i dont want to break my keyboard)

  • @tomattorods
    @tomattorods Год назад

    EVERYTHING ABOUT YOU🎶

  • @prashsing44
    @prashsing44 11 месяцев назад

    He did it, sunuvabich did it~

  • @paoie1236
    @paoie1236 Год назад

    Leyzar (non-verbatim): to make melee better, give them gun form
    me: you mean like exalted blade?
    this is legit my first reaction. xD

  • @corruptedmedia9501
    @corruptedmedia9501 Год назад

    Someone tell him to drop his fashion frame for rev !

  • @Axeliot147
    @Axeliot147 Год назад

    Pls more melee builds 🥺

  • @thefriko9812
    @thefriko9812 8 месяцев назад

    Man i hate so much how enemies fly when u hit them

  • @shadowprimettv
    @shadowprimettv 4 месяца назад

    May I ask why no Primed Pressure Point or Sacrificial Pressure?

    • @zenkrome
      @zenkrome 3 месяца назад

      most people dont use them on light attack builds becouse condition overload gives a lot more damage due to the weeping woulds giving you a extra 440% status chance.

  • @technicalcreed7291
    @technicalcreed7291 Месяц назад

    I use with kullervo and I used a umbral forma on that

  • @thechosentouch
    @thechosentouch Год назад

    I wish they had given three this time so I didn't have to wait for a month and a half to get the hate.

  • @joshuathegamer2879
    @joshuathegamer2879 Год назад

    Leyzar doing a melee build? Hmmmmm something is off lol

  • @thebosicothe
    @thebosicothe Год назад

    I swear to god every Incarnon has bugged evolutions...

  • @Psion_Phoenix
    @Psion_Phoenix Год назад

    I’m annoyed that the years of playing I’ve never gotten this to drop. I’ve only just gotten War to drop in the last few days.

  • @del_the_black
    @del_the_black Год назад

    Does killing blow work with the heavy attack build

  • @mabugho
    @mabugho 7 месяцев назад

    so does hate incarnon blast still knocks you down?