Hey Blue? Can you do an episode about Cyprus?🤔 With all the Greek, Roman, Byzantine and Venetian influences it should be right up your street? It even has Shakespeare using Famagusta (a very important Port there at the time) as the backdrop to Othello!😊
In the video you alude to Christianity being the biggest religion, which my understanding was that it was Islam, but are you using a different metric to define “biggest” such as cultural impact or reach?
The multiple documented criminal trials of pigs in the High and Late Medieval France (mostly) come to mind. And the 1993 movie Hour of the Pig, aka the Advocate, inspired by them.
If any of the previous Emporers had had sons, they would have done the same thing. Also, if MA hadn't chosen Commodus, there probably would have been immediate civil war.
What's striking to me is that this fits well with one of core principles of Confucianism. The Chinese phrase 修身齊家治國平天下 tells people should make themselves a better person first and foremost before they try to work on improving the household, the country, and the world, in that order of increasing scale.
Fun fact: when Vesuvius destroyed Herculaneum, it carbonized a library filled with Epicurian works. Now this would normally make them entirely unreadable but they’ve recently created a method to (very slowly) unbind and read them, so we may very well get a better first hand look on Epicurus’ work and his successors soon.
I know the process is delicate and takes time, but am petulantly impatient for more access to Epicurus and Philodemus. Guess I'd better borrow from Stoicism and endure the wait patiently.
@@joshuahunt3032Fairly soon, some scrolls were in better condition and able to be unwound and analyzed before. At least enough to get some sentences out.
It's pretty funny that Marcus Aurelius' masterwork of "how to live" was, in retrospect, a board of post-it notes of "hang in there, kitten!" "Don't κוΙl yourself today!" by a guy whose job is driving him nuts.
Truly the greatest stoic. "I just want to do a good enough job to keep this place together until I can finally retire from this shithole of a desk job..."
To be fair; to a Stoic, it matters more that he tried, and tried HARD, than that he succeeded. The fact that tried up and until his death means that he succeeded. He could, after all, only control his actions and not the results thereof.
@@josecarlosmoreno9731 Then good is bad, obviously. Ethics is very complicated to give value to (think of the trolley problem) but pleasure that hurts, either others or yoruself, is hedonism, and Epicureanism argued that pleasure needs to be sought in the mind first and foremost, since that is lasting pleasure and doesn't hurt anyone. Peace of mind and absence of pain, for as many people as possible, is the goal, hence why they identified with pigs, since those are too stupid to comprehend pain and thus live largely in absence of it as long as no outside force hurts them.
"Commit no mistakes by perceiving no mistakes. Failure is a matter of misinterpreting the fruits of one's labour. Instead, look upon the opportunity for change granted you by some small misfortune, and be warmed by it."
@@Geth-Who ...if that's an actual quote from Aurelius, I'm half scared and half delighted. If you just whipped that one out yourself, I'm 100% delighted :D
This comment and the video make me wish Games Workshop would redesign Robuté Guilliman to look like Marcus Aurelius, because he has much more in common with him than Justinian the “Great.”
So true. St. Thomas Aquinas drew heavily on Greek and Roman philosophy, which was suprisingly rare in his time, incorporating many concepts, words, and ideas (Logos, stoicism, etc.) into mainstream Christian theology.
@@xolotltolox7626heavily distorted greek philosophy. Christians loved to claim to be the sucessors of the greeks and romans while destroying everything that belonged to them.
That’s exactly what I thought he was doing, and I was shocked that there wasn’t the quack to act as a bleep. Then I noticed the translation caption and went “oh. Right.”
The fact that one half of philosophical Rome was like "Fuck yeah, avoid pain, find pleasure, live life to the fullest" And the other half was "Breathe, just breathe, find your zen, focus". It kinda sounds like extroverts vs introverts at a party, and that's the most Roman thing ever
The former has a direct through-line to today's "Live, Laugh, Love." The latter: to *CBT* *I actually mean Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, whose seminal paper states outright that they're just re-branding Stoicism. But I kinda bet Marcus Aurelius would have been down with the _other_ meaning as a training method for increasing one's stress tolerance.
@@GSBarlev I can’t believe I’m the first to say this but… Thank you for specifying that CBT stands for Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and not the other thing! 😂😅😂😅
@@christopherfleetwood5252 Oh, I learned the hard way the necessity of spelling out the acronym-almost got written up at work once for talking about how much I was "getting out of CBT." 😅
Nero truly f*cked up when he ordered Seneca to take his own life. He sure realized after being diposed that changing one of the greatest philosophers of Antiquity for a power-hungry fisherman (Tigellinus) as your advisor wasn't a great idea
It's Nero. Dude was out of his mind thanks to copious amounts of lead in his diet. Romans liked lead based goblets for their wine, as it made it sweeter, as the lead leached into the wine. By the time Seneca died, he would have been living in a world entirely made of paranoid delusions.
1:53 Oh no, you've reminded me of the horror that was translating Cicero in Latin class in my German "Gymnasium" school. So, so much artistically beautiful, yet also fundamentally horrifying purposeful reimaginings of Latin grammar. Which is already a nightmare to begin with when it is not heavily deviating from its supposed rules. To this day, I hold the belief that Latin only managed to take over as the lingua franca of Europe because linguistic differences were not yet as pronounced in the Indo-European languages as they would later become. Why Cicero, why did you have to doom future Latin students to endless hours of suffering?
Well a big part of it is that current methods of teaching latin in schools are (to this day) horribly outdated and do not conform to what we nowadays see as practical methods of language learning. Take it from a fellow gymnasiast, Cicero becomes a lot easier when you’re actually taught to do more than recite grammar tables and comb through dictionaries to translate into your vernacular.
As a Korean I think I understand your pain. I was in middle school right before our education system started phasing out most Chinese Classics courses from the curriculum. In the 2000s Korean schools still taught student a lot of Chinese Characters in mandatory courses, even when most texts became exclusively Hangul. Whether you call it Chinese Characters, Hànzì, Hanja, or Kanji, there's no denying that it has huge historical and linguistic significance all over East Asia, just like Latin in European languages. So there he was, 14-yr-old myself, drawing stuff like 修身齊家平天下 to study for midterms. The phrase roughly means "improve yourself before you (try to) improve the household, the country, and the world, in that order". Yes, that's right. Stoicism and Confucianism each turned themselves into philosophical crabs from the opposite side of the world.🦀
From my readings about him, I think the best laconic description of Cicero would be an arrogant man with much to be arrogant about. Meanwhile, Epicurus would be my go-to for a historical person to dine with, because, apart from anything else, he'd be satisfied with just a pot of cheese. As for Lucretius, he might be quite fun, though that depends on his topic of conversation. I seem to remember him taking a very Schopenhauer-esque approach to sex and romance - i.e., 'don't do it, it's a trap!'
Poor Marcus Aurelius. It's not that he was not brave enough for politics, rather he had no time for it. On a more serious not, I see the VERY strong influences of Stoicism on Jedi Philosophy. Wisdom, courage, temperance, and justice are the fundamental attributes of the Jedi Code, we may as well make them our official motto. And living in harmony with the Logos? The Divine reason governing the universe you say? Why, that's the Force by another name. Death certainly isn't a threat to the Jedi either, we strive to serenely take our leave, "serene as he who dismisses you." It's an idea I sincerely hope I epitomized when Vader struck me down. Epicureanism is less visible in Jedi Philosophy but there is still something there. Jedi do not explicitly pursue pleasure and avoid pain, but there is an understanding that physical pleasures (and pain) are temporary and fleeting. In fact, we teach that that Dark Side is based off of an obsession or addiction to physical pleasures. Jedi teach that instead of preoccupying oneself with pursuit of physical pleasures, one can let experience them but then them pass and that true happiness and purpose is found in the subtle but more constant and sustainable mental pleasures. That serine calmness without fear is also very much our Jedi jam.
You know, I was reading this like any other comment, but then you started speaking on first person about Star Wars lore, which I found weird, and it was at that instant I realised you were Kenobi. Well played, General, well played.
I think it was also Aurelius (EDIT: Might've also been Epicurus, go figure) who absolutely dismantled the Pascal's Wager thought experiment (basically, 'Believe in God just in case, because if an atheist's wrong they go to hell') centuries before Pascal even decided to get smug at people with it. While I'm paraphrasing: "Live a good life. If there are gods, and they are just, they will welcome you for your virtue. If there are gods, and they are unjust, they do not deserve worship. If there are no gods, you will live on in the memory of those whose lives you brightened." It's SUCH a comforting axiom for someone in the grip of an existential crisis.
That's not a true quote. In his work he affirms existence of god. I don't know why people like you have opinions on things when you have not even read primary sources.
@@gegatodua2988 Pfhah, you might be right, I might be thinking of Epicurus. Go off on someone for getting a name wrong, though, you totally don't look like you've got an axe to grind against people who doubt your god's existence.
Losing twelve children, spending eleven years in war, dealing with the Antonine Plague, betrayal, and financial difficulties when you never wanted to be in charge does weigh heavy on a man who sold all the palace furniture instead of robbing the poor to balance the budget.
I also loved Epicurus’ philosophy on why death doesnt matter in a practical sense if you view it as non-existence so you wont have to fear it. When death is not with you, it does not matter. And when death is with you, nothing matters. So either way you have no reason to fear death.
It's pretty crazy that Seneca was basically the ruler of Rome for years, as he and prefer Burrhus took care of the Empire's administration for the first years of Nero's reign. Too bad Nero changed him for Tigellinus
The fact that this has only been out for aboyt an hour and has over ten thousand views, tons of comments, and will likely end up with hundreds of thousands of views makes me so happy and look forward to the future of man. We still have a philisophical core within us.
I think your final point is why Roman philosophers and particularly Stoics are so popular with people when they first get into philosophy. A lot of it is easy to understand and you can apply a lot of what you learn from them almost immediately in your life. Yes, philosophy has deeper questions about how stuff works and why (which led to modern science as we know it) but for most people they want something that can help them. Seeing how Seneca, Epictetus, and Aurelius applied their philosophy to deal with the problems they faced is way more relatable that trying to wrap your head around Metaphysics. I love my Greek boys don't get me wrong but when times are tough I always bust out the Roman Stoics to find a way through the hard times.
I played a dnd style game one time as part of a class project and my main adversary was Cicero. I played Lucia's Sergius Catilina. It did not go well for Cicero in our time-line though, with Cicero and all his Optimates either in exile or dead. And no I did not march an army into Rome.
Got a real "Jedi vs Sith" vibe with the Stoics vs Epicureans. Granted, the Sith embrace their pain as it makes them more powerful, but pain is just one facet of passion, which is the foundation of the Sith Code; passion inexorably leads to freedom. It's just a shame that no Sith is ever truly free, since their culture involves conquest, and conquest all but demands retribution. They put the sword of Damocles over their head and call it "freedom".
Nah, it's more like the whole Cosmic Force vs Living Force as competing philosophies in the Jedi order. In the Jedi order, belief in the cosmic force was what was championed by Yoda and the council, yet Qui-Gon was a believer in the living force. The Stoics and Epicureans had disagreements and the like, but generally respected one another and often would study from their counterparts. The Sith have a much more active philosophy than epicureanism, believing that virtue, without the power to make their will reality, was useless. This is diametrically opposed to both epicurean and stoic Philosophy.
@@Cyberwar101right on - stoicism vs Epicureanism is different Jedi philosophies, Sith are fascists, in that they have no philosophy or ideology, only rhetoric, and they change and discard whatever doesn’t suit their agenda for power.
@@Cyberwar101right on - stoicism vs Epicureanism is different Jedi philosophies, Sith are fascists, in that they have no philosophy or ideology, only rhetoric, and they change and discard whatever doesn’t suit their agenda for power.
I really like the Epicurean philosophy; it's something I can genuinely get behind. I think I've been living it already. I'm content with my life, I'm doing what I love, and I'm surrounded by the people I care about, so I think I'm already following this philosophy.
As someone with a degree in History and Latin; can confirm: Cicero haunts my nightmares. WHY DID YOU HAVE TO TAKE A VERY ORDERED LANGUAGE AND MAKE IT PAIN?!?
I'm glad I didn't have a mouth full of lunch ramen at the line "literally pigs are happier than humans because they haven't yet invented crime", because it made me crack up and nod sagely. XD
Couple of notes I remembered watching this video: 1. Cicero means "Chickpea". Yep, they guy who brought philosophy to Rome and would later end up with his head in the roman forum (thanks, Octavian and Antony) was named after the thing we use to make hummus 2. My dad has always equated the Greeks and Romans to Scientists and Engineers: the Greeks figured out the theory, Romans figured out how to apply it. Looks like philosophy is following that trend.
@paulcalixte2223 and you blame your father for your lot in life? He[Marcus] tried, as most fathers do. But as any parent can tell you, sometimes it just isn't enough no matter how hard you try. At the end of the day, a child has their own mind that develops into a regular person and just like how we are ourselves, can barely control our minds, why expect a parent to be capable of the same
@@paulcalixte2223 I say if you lived a good enough life where all they can say is your child fucked it up long after you died, that's pretty good when it comes down to it
"Put an end to this discussion of *what* a good man should be, and go *be* one"? Sounds like "don't try to be a *great* man, just *be* a man and let history decide the rest"...
8:01 "Lucretius fans stay winning." Now *that's* what I call a stylish swerve. Reminds me of that time at the top of the cliffs, watching other people's galleys sink... ;)
I'm a little sad, you didn't include the story of how Marcus Aurelius died, since I find it oddly hillarious.... So while in Germania he caught the plaque and kinda said f*** it! Laid in his deathbed put a cloth over his head and simply waited to die already. A true Stoic lol
Marcus Aurelius should be primarily remembered for his most impactful policy decision for the Roman Empire, which was to abandon the tradition of picking the most capable person as the successor of the emperor, and instead give the throne to the eldest son by blood. At a time, when the entire court knew that his son Commodus was a severely deranged psychopath since early childhood. Good job, MA.
If the earlier Emporers had had sons, they would have done the same thing. Only Antonius Pius came close to becoming Emporer by merit alone; the other successions were as follows-- Nerva: Was an acceptable choice to the Flavian Loyalists; was an old and childless stopgap. Trajan: Forced on Nerva by the Army. Hadrian: Trajan's cousin's son; had tbe support of Trajan's wife and Trajan's sister's family. Marcus Aurelius: Antonius Pius's nephew, adopted son, and son-in-law. Also, many historians agree that if MA had not chosen Commodus, there would have been immediate civil war.
“A writer so prolific he’s become every Latin student’s sleep paralysis demon” hit me like a freight train. I can’t speak for Cicero’s other works, but I swear translating Pro Caelio should be considered a form of torture…
As a latin student myself, who is regularly haunted by the spectre of Cicero's speeches, I so very greatly appreciate all the casual insults towards him
I read a whole series of children's novels about a certain guy who'd chosen to remain a pig back on Circe's Island and only now am I learning that he was based on an actual philosophical character! Thank you Pig Scrolls for teaching me philosophy
The second I heard Blue mention Logos, I was thrown right back to middle and high school, and how we learn the art of debating. Ethos, pathos and logos will never leave me alone...
One of my German professors (in Canada) played a relevant song at the beginning of each lecture, and so I have heard exactly one of their songs (Mensch, wo bist du)
Thank you for having the Roman Empire listed as lasting until 1453 a.D. (or C.E.). As a "Byzantine" historian the long disregarding of the "Eastern Romans" since Edward Gibbon's seminal work, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" (1776), has been galling. Only in recent decades has his prejudices been exposed and more attention devoted to the Romioi, the Eastern Romans whose mother tongue was Greek.
I like to read, "C.E." as "christian Epoch": i.e. the starting point of the christian calendar. [Starting points of calendars are called their "epoch".]
One thing which always strikes me quite a bit is that Ancient Greek and Ancient Rome are probably the best example of the difference between a scientist and an engineer, which is pretty well summed up with 10:35.
>Walking home at night >Pass a group of youths >One of them tells me I dropped my gay card >I look down for it and realise I've been the victim of a practical joke >I am unmoved, I tell the youth that his provocations are futile because I am a stoic >He bursts out laughing and says it's pronounced stow-ic, not stoike >Break down and cry in the street
Truly, I would highly encourage everyone to give a chance to Cicero's De senectutae, Seneca's De brevitate vitae and Marcus Aurelius work, they are not that hard and can really change your life in many aspects!
Listening to it outside of class has really shown me how divorced Classical pronunciation is from what non-Latin students think of as Latin pronunciation. That said, I will never order a Caesar salad without pronouncing it the Kaiser way.
"As the bird trims her to the gale, I trim myself to the storm of time, I man the rudder, reef the sail, Obey the voice at eve obeyed at prime: “Lowly faithful, banish fear, Right onward drive unharmed; The port, well worth the cruise, is near, And every wave is charmed.” _-Terminus_ by Ralph Waldo Emerson
Honestly, I've never understood the use of that last quote. In the literal sense of its interpretation, what it takes to be a good man is deeply influenced by culture, so the correct answer to that question will never be innately known to anyone; it must be learned. It's a bit like saying "stop distracting yourself with trying to figure out how to build a table, just go ahead and build it." Even when interpreting it as a stoic lesson in having confidence in yourself and living in the moment rather than stewing in your own anxieties, I'm still skeptical of its practical use. That's good advice for people with chronic anxiety who can never get themselves to start the process of self-improvement out of fear of doing it wrong, but for those without that problem, it just feels like a poetically-worded excuse to not think about the effects of your actions before you do them.
It makes sense when you consider that delaying and not acting is a choice with consequences in itself. Better to learn from mistakes you commit than to not learn by not doing anything.
1:05 I had to rewind to watch the Plato Minecraft death animation again. That combination of words is not something I’d ever thought I’d write but here we are
Leave a like to give Seneca the credit he deserves. The man survived two of the three Judeo-Claudian emperors and managed to keep the third’s (and most infamous one) proclivities in check for a time.
Having studied classical Latin in university, I was really happy to hear Blue use classical Latin to pronounce things like (exempli grātiā, heh) Faciāmus histōriam and the full name of Cicero.
10:17- that was one of my favs! 10:43- “Put an end to this discussion of what a good man should be and be one. “👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Also, thanks for summarizing the difference between Greek and Roman philosophy. Greeks: Theoretical. If this happens and why does it work? Romans: Practical: What happens when (insert incident here) and how does this affect society?
It would be interesting to see Blue looking at the philosophy underpinnings of the Middle Byzantine period and contrasting that with the high medieval philosophy developments in western Europe, considering they come from similar sources.
fun fact gladiator emperor dad is marcus aurelius ans the main character show stoicism all along the movie. the famous quote « are you not entertain? » isn’t supposed to be snarly, like internet think it is, its literally him bein stoic and saying to the crowd as if it was the gods themselves « look u take everything from me in ur great design i cant comprehend’ i play my role are you satisfied yet? »
I like the quote at the end honestly. People do get stuck in whay makes them good. I wonder does Blue know much about Warhammer? I wonder what he would think of the group's loosely built off the Romans (Ultramarine 30k and 40k especially woth 30k and their practical and theoretical mind set to war.) And Holy Roman Empire, the Empire of man (original Warhammer aka Warhammer Old World now.)
Hi Blue, I almost watched all your video’s! Love them! Unfortunately I couldn’t find anything about the Dutch history. There’s some pretty good stuff in there like the “Dutch Golden Age”. Are you ever planning om making a video? Would love that!
What a surprise for me to learn that one of my most fleshed out fictional characters is an Epicurean, and not just in the modern definition relating to food! Nothing like learning something that makes your own work better just for having paid attention.
@Nazuiko TL;DR imagine a highly powerful being with almost no ego issues, obsessed with using his abilities to collect experiences. Good food, good times, good company and good memories made with all of the above. And a belief others should be unburdened to do the same.
Space Cat, SPACE CAT! The LEO zodiac pin is now available in our merch store!
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Your mods unjustly banned me from your server. Restore me now
I clicked on this thinking it was about Roman Gangsters. I am disappoint.
Hey Blue? Can you do an episode about Cyprus?🤔 With all the Greek, Roman, Byzantine and Venetian influences it should be right up your street? It even has Shakespeare using Famagusta (a very important Port there at the time) as the backdrop to Othello!😊
In the video you alude to Christianity being the biggest religion, which my understanding was that it was Islam, but are you using a different metric to define “biggest” such as cultural impact or reach?
For some reason I read this in the tone of “Backpack, BACKPACK” from Dora the Explorer
"pigs are happier than humans because they haven't invented crime yet," is both the truest and most out of pocket thing Blue has said.
Ngl when that line came up I had to pause the video for a few seconds and stare at the wall
yeah but cats seem pretty happy too
@@gsjacobsthey have no crime either. Cats do not make mistakes, it is merely the world that is wrong
Counterpoint: humans are happier than pigs because humans have invented bacon?
It also implies that they may yet get to it one day.
You know, if I had to pick an animal that hadn't invented crime yet, it wouldn't be pigs
The multiple documented criminal trials of pigs in the High and Late Medieval France (mostly) come to mind. And the 1993 movie Hour of the Pig, aka the Advocate, inspired by them.
Animal Farm would attest to that claim.
Yeah - pigs are way too smart to not have invented crime.
Like dolphins
Crime is an attitude.
In contrast to goats, who shortly after being born can do such things as stand, walk, and commit tax fraud.
"Put an end to this discussion of what a good man should be, and be one." is such a banger quote not gonna lie 🔥
Now, if only his son had been paying attention…
@@DataChicken77 If only he hadn’t reverted the succession practice back to direct ancestry…
If any of the previous Emporers had had sons, they would have done the same thing. Also, if MA hadn't chosen Commodus, there probably would have been immediate civil war.
What's striking to me is that this fits well with one of core principles of Confucianism. The Chinese phrase 修身齊家治國平天下 tells people should make themselves a better person first and foremost before they try to work on improving the household, the country, and the world, in that order of increasing scale.
Fun fact: when Vesuvius destroyed Herculaneum, it carbonized a library filled with Epicurian works. Now this would normally make them entirely unreadable but they’ve recently created a method to (very slowly) unbind and read them, so we may very well get a better first hand look on Epicurus’ work and his successors soon.
I know the process is delicate and takes time, but am petulantly impatient for more access to Epicurus and Philodemus. Guess I'd better borrow from Stoicism and endure the wait patiently.
I'm going to use this knowledge against spiritual stoics >:)
That begs the question, how long did it already take to figure out that the library we found had epicurean works in it?
@@joshuahunt3032Fairly soon, some scrolls were in better condition and able to be unwound and analyzed before. At least enough to get some sentences out.
That has to be the coolest thing I have heard all day!
It's pretty funny that Marcus Aurelius' masterwork of "how to live" was, in retrospect, a board of post-it notes of "hang in there, kitten!" "Don't κוΙl yourself today!" by a guy whose job is driving him nuts.
Such are the thoughts of one who deals with G*rms on the daily.
Truly the greatest stoic.
"I just want to do a good enough job to keep this place together until I can finally retire from this shithole of a desk job..."
"Contemplative contact high" is such a great way to describe the infusion of Greek culture.
Seneca, the first person to think “I can fix him!” with Nero
He could not, in fact, fix him
Everyone else be like: nah bro, he's deep in his roman kool-aid
And the last
To be fair; to a Stoic, it matters more that he tried, and tried HARD, than that he succeeded. The fact that tried up and until his death means that he succeeded. He could, after all, only control his actions and not the results thereof.
And everybody else who tried has only seen fate
“Reject humanity, become pig“-Gryllus
The OG Return to Monke
Odysseus:WERE GOING BACK TO ITHICA
Epicurians: "Feeling good is good"
The Greco-Roman world: "You are worse than the lowliest pigs"
Epicureans: "Pigs are actually fine, guys. Become pig."
@@daviddaugherty2816”Reject complicated societal stuff, return to piggie”
What if some methods of feeling good harms others? Especially given no man is an island and everything someone does has some effect on others.
@@josecarlosmoreno9731 Then good is bad, obviously. Ethics is very complicated to give value to (think of the trolley problem) but pleasure that hurts, either others or yoruself, is hedonism, and Epicureanism argued that pleasure needs to be sought in the mind first and foremost, since that is lasting pleasure and doesn't hurt anyone. Peace of mind and absence of pain, for as many people as possible, is the goal, hence why they identified with pigs, since those are too stupid to comprehend pain and thus live largely in absence of it as long as no outside force hurts them.
is this where "happy as a pig in slop" comes from
The art of Marcus Aurelius looks like he’s gonna show me how to paint some happy little trees
"Commit no mistakes by perceiving no mistakes. Failure is a matter of misinterpreting the fruits of one's labour. Instead, look upon the opportunity for change granted you by some small misfortune, and be warmed by it."
Unless he is Bob Ross' ancestor 🥲
@@Geth-Who ...if that's an actual quote from Aurelius, I'm half scared and half delighted. If you just whipped that one out yourself, I'm 100% delighted :D
This comment and the video make me wish Games Workshop would redesign Robuté Guilliman to look like Marcus Aurelius, because he has much more in common with him than Justinian the “Great.”
To me he looks more like he hates everything, is trying to stay calm about it, and wants a nap.
What really gets me as a philosophy minor and a Catholic is how much Stoicism influenced Catholic culture.
Fifth century Christians even forged a Correspondence between Paul and Seneca.
@@ţťþtţttI know, I am surprised Blue didn’t mentioned that. But then he hardly touched on Neo-Platonism, or any other school.
Basically the entirety of the new testament is just greek philosophy lol
So true. St. Thomas Aquinas drew heavily on Greek and Roman philosophy, which was suprisingly rare in his time, incorporating many concepts, words, and ideas (Logos, stoicism, etc.) into mainstream Christian theology.
@@xolotltolox7626heavily distorted greek philosophy. Christians loved to claim to be the sucessors of the greeks and romans while destroying everything that belonged to them.
Blue saying "Let's do some history!" in Latin sounds delightfully like "Fuck yeah history!"
Good to know I wasn't the only person thinking it...
That’s exactly what I thought he was doing, and I was shocked that there wasn’t the quack to act as a bleep. Then I noticed the translation caption and went “oh. Right.”
I had glanced away from the screen and had to go back a few seconds because I thought he HAD dropped an F bomb hahah
The fact that one half of philosophical Rome was like
"Fuck yeah, avoid pain, find pleasure, live life to the fullest"
And the other half was
"Breathe, just breathe, find your zen, focus".
It kinda sounds like extroverts vs introverts at a party, and that's the most Roman thing ever
The former has a direct through-line to today's "Live, Laugh, Love."
The latter: to *CBT*
*I actually mean Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, whose seminal paper states outright that they're just re-branding Stoicism. But I kinda bet Marcus Aurelius would have been down with the _other_ meaning as a training method for increasing one's stress tolerance.
@@GSBarlev I can’t believe I’m the first to say this but… Thank you for specifying that CBT stands for Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and not the other thing! 😂😅😂😅
@@christopherfleetwood5252 Oh, I learned the hard way the necessity of spelling out the acronym-almost got written up at work once for talking about how much I was "getting out of CBT." 😅
@@GSBarlev 🤣🤣🤣
Then after enough wine, EVERYONE goes to the vomitorium (god I love that word, and "defenestrate").
The fact that Marcus Aurelius's son was one of the worst tyrants that Rome has ever seen really puts his beliefs into perspective
Does make you wonder. If it's so good why does it make such bad results
@@gormauslandertbf saving the empire was also one of his results
@@user-iy5ww2hj4p Was the empire worth saving?
@@gormauslander why wasnt it?
Nero truly f*cked up when he ordered Seneca to take his own life. He sure realized after being diposed that changing one of the greatest philosophers of Antiquity for a power-hungry fisherman (Tigellinus) as your advisor wasn't a great idea
It's Nero. Dude was out of his mind thanks to copious amounts of lead in his diet. Romans liked lead based goblets for their wine, as it made it sweeter, as the lead leached into the wine.
By the time Seneca died, he would have been living in a world entirely made of paranoid delusions.
Odd how many times this same thing happens in modern business...
I love Diogenes's "I'm too old for this sh*t" expression
1:53 Oh no, you've reminded me of the horror that was translating Cicero in Latin class in my German "Gymnasium" school.
So, so much artistically beautiful, yet also fundamentally horrifying purposeful reimaginings of Latin grammar.
Which is already a nightmare to begin with when it is not heavily deviating from its supposed rules.
To this day, I hold the belief that Latin only managed to take over as the lingua franca of Europe because linguistic differences were not yet as pronounced in the Indo-European languages as they would later become.
Why Cicero, why did you have to doom future Latin students to endless hours of suffering?
Well a big part of it is that current methods of teaching latin in schools are (to this day) horribly outdated and do not conform to what we nowadays see as practical methods of language learning. Take it from a fellow gymnasiast, Cicero becomes a lot easier when you’re actually taught to do more than recite grammar tables and comb through dictionaries to translate into your vernacular.
What's Latin for "suffering builds character"? 😁
As a Korean I think I understand your pain. I was in middle school right before our education system started phasing out most Chinese Classics courses from the curriculum. In the 2000s Korean schools still taught student a lot of Chinese Characters in mandatory courses, even when most texts became exclusively Hangul. Whether you call it Chinese Characters, Hànzì, Hanja, or Kanji, there's no denying that it has huge historical and linguistic significance all over East Asia, just like Latin in European languages. So there he was, 14-yr-old myself, drawing stuff like 修身齊家平天下 to study for midterms.
The phrase roughly means "improve yourself before you (try to) improve the household, the country, and the world, in that order". Yes, that's right. Stoicism and Confucianism each turned themselves into philosophical crabs from the opposite side of the world.🦀
@@Brasswatchmanpatiēns ingenium aedificāt 😉
(Latin enthusiast crazy enough to become a Latin teacher 👩🏫😅)
@@knpark2025That's wild! Never know when more Paths to Crab will pop up.
>Philosopher-king
>Doesn't want to rule
Plato, from the Republic: HAHAHAHA
0:45 Honestly heard this as “Fuck yeah! History!” And that’s amazingly on brand. XD
Same XD
"Windbag he may be-" Yups, that's a Roman, very cool, would be cooler if they hadn't highlighted their coolness as frequently as possible.
"Put an end to this discussion of what a good man should be, and be one."
damn, can't argue with that.
6:32 "You couldn't swing a gladius in the Senate without hitting a Stoic."
This does not hurt me ;)
"An Orator, statesman and writer so absurdly prolific he's become every Latin student's sleep paralysis demon..."
i am ded
From my readings about him, I think the best laconic description of Cicero would be an arrogant man with much to be arrogant about.
Meanwhile, Epicurus would be my go-to for a historical person to dine with, because, apart from anything else, he'd be satisfied with just a pot of cheese. As for Lucretius, he might be quite fun, though that depends on his topic of conversation. I seem to remember him taking a very Schopenhauer-esque approach to sex and romance - i.e., 'don't do it, it's a trap!'
history sure does hijink
Indeed
aurelius was 100% that boy who had no fear except for responsibility
love the symbol for the the republic from star wars at 10:17
Poor Marcus Aurelius. It's not that he was not brave enough for politics, rather he had no time for it.
On a more serious not, I see the VERY strong influences of Stoicism on Jedi Philosophy. Wisdom, courage, temperance, and justice are the fundamental attributes of the Jedi Code, we may as well make them our official motto. And living in harmony with the Logos? The Divine reason governing the universe you say? Why, that's the Force by another name. Death certainly isn't a threat to the Jedi either, we strive to serenely take our leave, "serene as he who dismisses you." It's an idea I sincerely hope I epitomized when Vader struck me down.
Epicureanism is less visible in Jedi Philosophy but there is still something there. Jedi do not explicitly pursue pleasure and avoid pain, but there is an understanding that physical pleasures (and pain) are temporary and fleeting. In fact, we teach that that Dark Side is based off of an obsession or addiction to physical pleasures. Jedi teach that instead of preoccupying oneself with pursuit of physical pleasures, one can let experience them but then them pass and that true happiness and purpose is found in the subtle but more constant and sustainable mental pleasures. That serine calmness without fear is also very much our Jedi jam.
The philosophy of the Living Force may be more closely related to the epicurean influences.
Heck yeah
Lot of crossover between Stoicism and Buddhism, I expect. Or at least they seem to have been produced by a similar thought process.
@@Brasswatchman Buddhism was a common religion in the Roman Empire if I remember right. There could have been some influence there.
You know, I was reading this like any other comment, but then you started speaking on first person about Star Wars lore, which I found weird, and it was at that instant I realised you were Kenobi. Well played, General, well played.
Not me thinking this was going to be about Roman comedians based on the title.
Ngl, I was thinking the exact same thing. I came for jokes, I stayed for Stoicism. It's a tale as old as time...
Same. Don't know who I was expecting to hear about, but it wasn't philosophy
"Ah! A Bullshit Artist."
I was hoping for Roman crime bosses.
I whole load of mr herbert and fart jokes
I think it was also Aurelius (EDIT: Might've also been Epicurus, go figure) who absolutely dismantled the Pascal's Wager thought experiment (basically, 'Believe in God just in case, because if an atheist's wrong they go to hell') centuries before Pascal even decided to get smug at people with it. While I'm paraphrasing: "Live a good life. If there are gods, and they are just, they will welcome you for your virtue. If there are gods, and they are unjust, they do not deserve worship. If there are no gods, you will live on in the memory of those whose lives you brightened." It's SUCH a comforting axiom for someone in the grip of an existential crisis.
Been living that way for most of my 51 years without knowing that quote.
That's not a true quote. In his work he affirms existence of god. I don't know why people like you have opinions on things when you have not even read primary sources.
@@gegatodua2988 Pfhah, you might be right, I might be thinking of Epicurus. Go off on someone for getting a name wrong, though, you totally don't look like you've got an axe to grind against people who doubt your god's existence.
Regardless of whether it was Aurelius who actually said it, it’s a great quote nevertheless.
Losing twelve children, spending eleven years in war, dealing with the Antonine Plague, betrayal, and financial difficulties when you never wanted to be in charge does weigh heavy on a man who sold all the palace furniture instead of robbing the poor to balance the budget.
I also loved Epicurus’ philosophy on why death doesnt matter in a practical sense if you view it as non-existence so you wont have to fear it. When death is not with you, it does not matter. And when death is with you, nothing matters. So either way you have no reason to fear death.
It's pretty crazy that Seneca was basically the ruler of Rome for years, as he and prefer Burrhus took care of the Empire's administration for the first years of Nero's reign. Too bad Nero changed him for Tigellinus
The fact that this has only been out for aboyt an hour and has over ten thousand views, tons of comments, and will likely end up with hundreds of thousands of views makes me so happy and look forward to the future of man. We still have a philisophical core within us.
Blue: We begin this story as Rome often does:
Me: On fire?
Blue: Fashionable late
"Put an end to this discussion of what a good man should be, and be one" is truly a quote worth remembering. Thanks, Blue!
You just gave me my next quote of the month in my bullet journal. Thank you
I think your final point is why Roman philosophers and particularly Stoics are so popular with people when they first get into philosophy. A lot of it is easy to understand and you can apply a lot of what you learn from them almost immediately in your life. Yes, philosophy has deeper questions about how stuff works and why (which led to modern science as we know it) but for most people they want something that can help them. Seeing how Seneca, Epictetus, and Aurelius applied their philosophy to deal with the problems they faced is way more relatable that trying to wrap your head around Metaphysics. I love my Greek boys don't get me wrong but when times are tough I always bust out the Roman Stoics to find a way through the hard times.
I played a dnd style game one time as part of a class project and my main adversary was Cicero. I played Lucia's Sergius Catilina. It did not go well for Cicero in our time-line though, with Cicero and all his Optimates either in exile or dead. And no I did not march an army into Rome.
Got a real "Jedi vs Sith" vibe with the Stoics vs Epicureans. Granted, the Sith embrace their pain as it makes them more powerful, but pain is just one facet of passion, which is the foundation of the Sith Code; passion inexorably leads to freedom.
It's just a shame that no Sith is ever truly free, since their culture involves conquest, and conquest all but demands retribution. They put the sword of Damocles over their head and call it "freedom".
Don't you mean the lightsaber of Damocles?
Nah, it's more like the whole Cosmic Force vs Living Force as competing philosophies in the Jedi order. In the Jedi order, belief in the cosmic force was what was championed by Yoda and the council, yet Qui-Gon was a believer in the living force. The Stoics and Epicureans had disagreements and the like, but generally respected one another and often would study from their counterparts.
The Sith have a much more active philosophy than epicureanism, believing that virtue, without the power to make their will reality, was useless. This is diametrically opposed to both epicurean and stoic Philosophy.
@@Cyberwar101right on - stoicism vs Epicureanism is different Jedi philosophies, Sith are fascists, in that they have no philosophy or ideology, only rhetoric, and they change and discard whatever doesn’t suit their agenda for power.
@@Cyberwar101right on - stoicism vs Epicureanism is different Jedi philosophies, Sith are fascists, in that they have no philosophy or ideology, only rhetoric, and they change and discard whatever doesn’t suit their agenda for power.
I really like the Epicurean philosophy; it's something I can genuinely get behind. I think I've been living it already. I'm content with my life, I'm doing what I love, and I'm surrounded by the people I care about, so I think I'm already following this philosophy.
As someone with a degree in History and Latin; can confirm: Cicero haunts my nightmares. WHY DID YOU HAVE TO TAKE A VERY ORDERED LANGUAGE AND MAKE IT PAIN?!?
I'm glad I didn't have a mouth full of lunch ramen at the line "literally pigs are happier than humans because they haven't yet invented crime", because it made me crack up and nod sagely. XD
Couple of notes I remembered watching this video:
1. Cicero means "Chickpea". Yep, they guy who brought philosophy to Rome and would later end up with his head in the roman forum (thanks, Octavian and Antony) was named after the thing we use to make hummus
2. My dad has always equated the Greeks and Romans to Scientists and Engineers: the Greeks figured out the theory, Romans figured out how to apply it. Looks like philosophy is following that trend.
Emperor Marcus Aurelius is amazing, enough said. His thought's saved me and I think countless others.
How was Commodus his son
@paulcalixte2223 and you blame your father for your lot in life? He[Marcus] tried, as most fathers do. But as any parent can tell you, sometimes it just isn't enough no matter how hard you try. At the end of the day, a child has their own mind that develops into a regular person and just like how we are ourselves, can barely control our minds, why expect a parent to be capable of the same
@@paulcalixte2223 I say if you lived a good enough life where all they can say is your child fucked it up long after you died, that's pretty good when it comes down to it
"Put an end to this discussion of *what* a good man should be, and go *be* one"? Sounds like "don't try to be a *great* man, just *be* a man and let history decide the rest"...
8:01 "Lucretius fans stay winning."
Now *that's* what I call a stylish swerve. Reminds me of that time at the top of the cliffs, watching other people's galleys sink... ;)
'swerve'
>_>
Epicureanism also, through a series of wacky hijinks, gave rise to a Judaic term for "heretic", apikoros (אפיקורוס).
"End this discussion of what a good man is and go be one" hits so hard.
I'm a little sad, you didn't include the story of how Marcus Aurelius died, since I find it oddly hillarious.... So while in Germania he caught the plaque and kinda said f*** it! Laid in his deathbed put a cloth over his head and simply waited to die already. A true Stoic lol
Marcus Aurelius should be primarily remembered for his most impactful policy decision for the Roman Empire, which was to abandon the tradition of picking the most capable person as the successor of the emperor, and instead give the throne to the eldest son by blood. At a time, when the entire court knew that his son Commodus was a severely deranged psychopath since early childhood.
Good job, MA.
If the earlier Emporers had had sons, they would have done the same thing. Only Antonius Pius came close to becoming Emporer by merit alone; the other successions were as follows--
Nerva: Was an acceptable choice to the Flavian Loyalists; was an old and childless stopgap.
Trajan: Forced on Nerva by the Army.
Hadrian: Trajan's cousin's son; had tbe support of Trajan's wife and Trajan's sister's family.
Marcus Aurelius: Antonius Pius's nephew, adopted son, and son-in-law.
Also, many historians agree that if MA had not chosen Commodus, there would have been immediate civil war.
Are we certain that was Marky Aura and that some Gladiator-type shenanigans didn't happen in the background?
“A writer so prolific he’s become every Latin student’s sleep paralysis demon” hit me like a freight train. I can’t speak for Cicero’s other works, but I swear translating Pro Caelio should be considered a form of torture…
I looked away for a moment at the beginning and thought he said "Fuck ya"
😂
I just love watching your videos in the morning. They are a fun and calming way to start the day.
4:49 Epicurus sounds like Dungeon Meshi.
As a latin student myself, who is regularly haunted by the spectre of Cicero's speeches, I so very greatly appreciate all the casual insults towards him
Meditations is a work of art. I urge everyone to read it. Blue I love you mentioning my favourite Greek, Diogenes is a perfect philosopher to me.
It also has the benefit of being easily readable. You can literally just pick it up on a random page and read a paragraph then put it down again.
I read a whole series of children's novels about a certain guy who'd chosen to remain a pig back on Circe's Island and only now am I learning that he was based on an actual philosophical character!
Thank you Pig Scrolls for teaching me philosophy
Powerful concluison from the ever misearble Marcus Aruliues
Write a book about bees that also is secretly about society.
The second I heard Blue mention Logos, I was thrown right back to middle and high school, and how we learn the art of debating. Ethos, pathos and logos will never leave me alone...
Someone tell me please if the comedic band "wise guys" is at all known outside of germany because every time I see the term I have to think of them
Thänk you for travelling with Deutsche Bahn
*sänk ju
One of my German professors (in Canada) played a relevant song at the beginning of each lecture, and so I have heard exactly one of their songs (Mensch, wo bist du)
Thank you for having the Roman Empire listed as lasting until 1453 a.D. (or C.E.). As a "Byzantine" historian the long disregarding of the "Eastern Romans" since Edward Gibbon's seminal work, "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" (1776), has been galling. Only in recent decades has his prejudices been exposed and more attention devoted to the Romioi, the Eastern Romans whose mother tongue was Greek.
I like to read, "C.E." as "christian Epoch": i.e. the starting point of the christian calendar. [Starting points of calendars are called their "epoch".]
Wallace Shawn or Danny Devito would be great at playing Cicero in a movie or more likely a play
Cicero never leaves. He just looms
The line about roman emperors being crazy is currently being nominated for understatement of all of history.
Wow, I really needed this right now. I’ve been really close to a breakdown lately but this gave me some hope and distance. Thank you Blue
Greek Red last week
Roman Blue this week
One thing which always strikes me quite a bit is that Ancient Greek and Ancient Rome are probably the best example of the difference between a scientist and an engineer, which is pretty well summed up with 10:35.
As the Romans say, "letsa go."
>Walking home at night
>Pass a group of youths
>One of them tells me I dropped my gay card
>I look down for it and realise I've been the victim of a practical joke
>I am unmoved, I tell the youth that his provocations are futile because I am a stoic
>He bursts out laughing and says it's pronounced stow-ic, not stoike
>Break down and cry in the street
Truly, I would highly encourage everyone to give a chance to Cicero's De senectutae, Seneca's De brevitate vitae and Marcus Aurelius work, they are not that hard and can really change your life in many aspects!
The Apostle Paul also interacted quite a bit with Stoicism and has several allusions to senneca in the book of Romans
In Plutarch's version of Epic, Circe is the heroine.
0:46 It sounds like Blue's saying "Fuck yeah History!" here.
Listening to it outside of class has really shown me how divorced Classical pronunciation is from what non-Latin students think of as Latin pronunciation. That said, I will never order a Caesar salad without pronouncing it the Kaiser way.
Thanks Blue..I feel enlightened every time you drop the hammer of truth! YOU THE MAN!!! O were it I the bird of the sky or the lily of the valley!
I thought I knew what "Epicurean" meant as an adjective, but I was mistaken! So fun to learn new things from this channel :)
"As the bird trims her to the gale,
I trim myself to the storm of time,
I man the rudder, reef the sail,
Obey the voice at eve obeyed at prime:
“Lowly faithful, banish fear,
Right onward drive unharmed;
The port, well worth the cruise, is near,
And every wave is charmed.”
_-Terminus_ by Ralph Waldo Emerson
I am once again humbly requesting, a Bulgarian history summarized
"and nobody can tell where the verbs are"
Boy that takes me back to my highschool Latin classes.
Honestly, I've never understood the use of that last quote. In the literal sense of its interpretation, what it takes to be a good man is deeply influenced by culture, so the correct answer to that question will never be innately known to anyone; it must be learned. It's a bit like saying "stop distracting yourself with trying to figure out how to build a table, just go ahead and build it."
Even when interpreting it as a stoic lesson in having confidence in yourself and living in the moment rather than stewing in your own anxieties, I'm still skeptical of its practical use. That's good advice for people with chronic anxiety who can never get themselves to start the process of self-improvement out of fear of doing it wrong, but for those without that problem, it just feels like a poetically-worded excuse to not think about the effects of your actions before you do them.
It makes sense when you consider that delaying and not acting is a choice with consequences in itself. Better to learn from mistakes you commit than to not learn by not doing anything.
That's one hell of a mic drop at the end, Blue. Damn...
WOW GOT THE VIDEO IN 23 SECONDS I THANK YOU GOD
As a graduate with a degree in Classics, I can confirm that sometimes I wake up with Cicero standing over me yelling about the evils of Catiline
1:05 I had to rewind to watch the Plato Minecraft death animation again. That combination of words is not something I’d ever thought I’d write but here we are
Hearing you talk of Marky A just had me thinking of the rocky promontory scene in black sails ngl
Leave a like to give Seneca the credit he deserves. The man survived two of the three Judeo-Claudian emperors and managed to keep the third’s (and most infamous one) proclivities in check for a time.
Having studied classical Latin in university, I was really happy to hear Blue use classical Latin to pronounce things like (exempli grātiā, heh) Faciāmus histōriam and the full name of Cicero.
10:17- that was one of my favs!
10:43- “Put an end to this discussion of what a good man should be and be one. “👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Also, thanks for summarizing the difference between Greek and Roman philosophy.
Greeks: Theoretical. If this happens and why does it work?
Romans: Practical: What happens when (insert incident here) and how does this affect society?
So happy to see some attention yielded to Lucretius
It would be interesting to see Blue looking at the philosophy underpinnings of the Middle Byzantine period and contrasting that with the high medieval philosophy developments in western Europe, considering they come from similar sources.
fun fact gladiator emperor dad is marcus aurelius ans the main character show stoicism all along the movie. the famous quote « are you not entertain? » isn’t supposed to be snarly, like internet think it is, its literally him bein stoic and saying to the crowd as if it was the gods themselves « look u take everything from me in ur great design i cant comprehend’ i play my role are you satisfied yet? »
Osp is getting ready for the season of fall
The way you just threw in ‘Occasional backstabbers’ as tho it only happened that one time, was brilliant 😂
I was thinking the same thing. I'm pretty sure literal backstabbing was the Roman national pastime.
I like the quote at the end honestly. People do get stuck in whay makes them good.
I wonder does Blue know much about Warhammer? I wonder what he would think of the group's loosely built off the Romans (Ultramarine 30k and 40k especially woth 30k and their practical and theoretical mind set to war.) And Holy Roman Empire, the Empire of man (original Warhammer aka Warhammer Old World now.)
Did they change from using B.C.E to B.C or am I wrong?
Red tends to use BCE/CE, I tend to use BC/AD. No moral or value judgement either way, just preference.
-B
Hi Blue, I almost watched all your video’s! Love them! Unfortunately I couldn’t find anything about the Dutch history. There’s some pretty good stuff in there like the “Dutch Golden Age”. Are you ever planning om making a video? Would love that!
What a surprise for me to learn that one of my most fleshed out fictional characters is an Epicurean, and not just in the modern definition relating to food! Nothing like learning something that makes your own work better just for having paid attention.
As in, a character you wrote? Are you willing to share any further in a youtube comment? You got me curious about this mystery Epicurean OC
@Nazuiko TL;DR imagine a highly powerful being with almost no ego issues, obsessed with using his abilities to collect experiences. Good food, good times, good company and good memories made with all of the above. And a belief others should be unburdened to do the same.