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Bob Smith Industries insta-set accelerator works great for any CA glue and doesn't hurt painted surfaces or leave a white residue like other activators will. I use a needle applicator bottle for better control instead of spraying, plus you don't waste as much.
Quick tip. For the template at the end, use wax OR Vaseline to cover the template back and edges this prevents the glue from sticking to it. Personally Vaseline is my favorite you can warm it a little and it becomes liquid and just paint it on. Super simple and glue never sticks to it. I also use it in some cases for painting to prevent paint from sticking.
I have premium RUclips membership because I can't stand all the ads. However, I know having sponsored ads 'baked' into the video by the content maker helps the upkeep costs. I doubly apricate how you put a timer bar during the ad so I can easily skip it, thank you so much. After all, after watching a ton of your video's why would I want to see SimpliSafe again and again . Your channel is awesome 😎
I wasn't go to say anything until you mentioned this project on the podcast twice, but this kind of comes full circle for me. I grew up with my dad watching the New Yanky Workshop and being very (in a not too mean way) jealous. He would often say things at the TV like, "Cut it again Norm!" or "Oh just make a perfect joint why don't you?!", and that is how Sunday Morning TV was in the house. . . I started watching your cannel when you were building the Tie Fighter firepit and then binge watched a lot of your catalog.... Afterwards, I called my sister and told her "I think I found my Norm Abram" We both laughed for awhile over it. I to am jealous of the cool things that you build, But I do appreciate that you do talk through the issues you run into and troubleshooting of the problems. I think that is way I don't yell at my laptop screen. I do try to keep up in my own way, I have a fair few of my own projects, some even turn out pretty good.
CNC is a large format planer as well. Further CNC tricks can start to replace bandsaws, jointers, and scroll saws at the expense of time and hot glue. I make cutting boards larger than 12" wide ..it is painful to think of life without a CNC to flatten them and make the juice grove. I own a laser and use that for thin high detail projects, but very rarely for cutting as the burnt edge is not my favorite. I would vote 4x4 CNC before laser for woodworkers. My 2 cents. Great video and sign. Now if only CNC machines could prime, sand and paint...🤔.
After researching for quite a while I just pulled the trigger and bought a laser cutter for my workshop instead off a cnc. Main reason for picking the laser over the cnc was the dust a cnc would create. Other factors where the ease of use (No different tools and less cam) and hopefully that it would be easier to learn by multiple of my collegues
The New Yankee Workshop was one of my favorite shows to watch when I was younger and I've always seen your channel as a modernized version of it which is why I love watching it so much. Brian Kesinger's art and this episode were especially a treat for me. Definitely takes me back. Great job!
I'm a Signwriter who works in a shop with both the CNC and a laser, and I would agree that you can use each for what they do best but they also allow just like the video to do collaborations using both
As a die hard NYW fan, this was epic, especially the "this was made possible by". Although I'm surprised I didn't hear "made possible by a generous grant from the Clagett Family Foundation". And as always, there's no greater safety tip than to wear these safety glasses.
I recently had this debate with myself. I ultimately ended up choosing a laser for my shop. I make a lot of cutting boards that customers want with their name/logo burned on to it. I think the CNC is fantastic and I will eventually get one but for my needs the laser was the best bet. This is entirely subjective (like you said) and specific to my needs. I enjoyed the video as always!
I just bought a laser engraver 3 days ago, and it is SO MUCH FUN! I'm also in the process of building a CNC. I can't wait to have some fun with that as well.
This probably won’t be seen but who knows, maybe. Bob, I run a couple lasers and you are doing yours a disservice with a weak extraction system and air supply. I run my air at anywhere for 50 psi to 80 psi when doing cuts and have smoke free cuts. This also allows the laser beam to work more efficiently if the smoke is displaced quickly. The extraction system helps with this as well.
When one of your favorite RUclipsrs collabs with one of your favorite artists. Watching this surrounded by the six prints I have of Brian's art in my work office. So cool!
I bought an entry level CNC with an optional laser. After a lot of thought I permantly mounted the Spindle motor and then made a bracket to attach the laser to the side of the z-axis. The Laser had a switch on it to disable it so I added a switch to the power wire to the spindle to disable it. So I could turn on the spindle or laser depending on what I want it to do. The only difference is the laser is offset from the spindle when it comes to setting it up. If I had a wider bed then I would add a second z-axis assembly to mount the laser so that it is easier to maintain and so that you can independly control the height of of the spindle/laser so you can move the device out of the way you are not using.
The idea of mounting both the laser and spindle on one machine at the same time is to make it easier to reconfigure the machine to do different work, instead of changing hardware and wiring I just have to change a few switches and then load in the code to run on the same system. All I need to do is change the starting position when I use the laser as it is offset from the spindle
3M makes an adhesive sheet that I attach to the back of my material before I cut it in the laser when I am making signs. The laser will cut through the material and the adhesive, and when I am ready to attach the letters I just peel the backing off the adhesive and stick it down. It's much easier than CA glue. The adhesive is called 3M 467MP Clear Adhesive Transfer Tape.
I've been working with a local engraver to do my laser engraving. However, now that I'm starting to fill those designs with resin, I think it just makes more sense to have the CNC. It seems there is a much lower entry point for decnet CNC machines with medium to large capacities too. The larger bed laser engravers really jump up in price.
If you are really into the DIY, and like making things, you should take a look at the MPCNC from V1 Engineering. It stands for "Mostly Printed CNC". Many of the parts can be 3D printed by yourself and the files are free, then you purchase the electronics, spindle, and 3/4" tubing, and assemble. Can be built to almost any size you want within reason, larger with additional printed supports. Can also be turned into a laser engraver, plotter, or even a plasma cutter! Many videos on youtube.
I've never even heard of the Onefinity machine. It looks great for the price too. I was looking into the X-Carve but it's $1,000 more than the Onefinity. Does anyone have any comparisons between the two?
both. Next question. sealing MDF, I use a HLVP gun (you can brush it on too if you want, this is just faster) with some shellac (light cut to start, heavier cut on 2nd coat). Since the shellac is mostly ethanol (I don't like the methanol smell so I stick to ethanol) it dries SUPER fast, as in I usually can spray the second layer after mere minutes.
Love the video! Personally I feel like using a CNC generally results in a slower workflow, as there is usually a cost of CAM work (generating tool paths for the CNC to go from design to cutting). Feeds and speeds (how fast to cut, how deep to cut, how fast to spin the bit, etc) is an art in itself. That being said, the CNC definitely lets you do more things so there’s always a trade off :)
Man I miss Norm and the New Yankee Workshop. I remember the episode where he made signs using different techniques and met a master sign maker that did then by hand. Great homage with the Book of Boba Fett reference
It would be a lot easier to make that sign with just a laser than just a CNC. The ability to make razor sharp inside corners is really useful. Also, you could start a signmaking business with less than $600 buying a large format diode laser, but $600 will not get you anything in the way of a large format CNC. Finally, the noisiest laser is quieter than the quietest CNC.
Just for clarity CNC stands for "computer numerical control" so the rig that's moving x, y, z is the CNC, doesn't really matter what's attached to it. So basically both of these are technically CNC whether its a laser, water jet, router etc. Great vid!
Shellac, plain old clear shellac, or the white shellac big box stores like to sell, is the best thing to seal MDF with a quick time drying and sealing properties
CNC over laser for sure. Besides what was already stated you can also add a drag bit and a diamond drag bit. These two will add the ability to cut cardboard and leather. And the diamond drag bit will allow you to engrave/etch into glass, aluminum, brass and acrylic. Fantastic sign either way.
You could have used the CNC or Laser to create recesses for the letters as well that would help with alignment and for better glue options. You could cut for example an extra set of letters, put them in the recess when you paint and then cut the paint, pull them out. And you would have the back of the good letters not painted, so you have 2 good surfaces.
Lower your min power settings on your laser. The laser slows down in the corners and you're over powering the material with too much heat. That's why the corners aren't uniform and a tad burnt.
While that is a good practice on lasers that use Lightburn as control software, he is using a Full Spectrum Laser and it has its own software that handles corners differently.
I've been arguing with myself as to which machine I need to purchase, CNC or laser . . . After watching your video and knowing what my ultimate goals are; I need to quit trying to cut corners and purchase both! It's in my budget to purchase both machines, but I don't get thrilled about spending money LOL. After watching this video, you've once again taught an old dog new tricks! Keep up the great and informative videos!
A note on tack cloths: the sticky stuff in them can cause issues with some finishes. There are ones specifically created for water-based finishes to avoid problems there. The default, if not labeled, is for oil-based finishes. Use the right one for the finish.
Honestly, one project I would be super interested in seeing is building a DIY CNC Router. I've watched so many videos, but nothing as well produced as your content. Really breaking down the process, laying out the parts, and showing the build would be a really cool video if you ever want to tackle it.
oh boy. That would be hard for us because we aready have one and anything we'd make wouldn't be as good. There are a lot of makers that are currently doing it though. Two Cherries Instruments is building one.
Honestly, by far the easiest thing to DIY would probably be to get a 3D printer such as an Ender 3 and convert that into a CNC rather than trying to find individual parts or whatever to outright build your own and if you need more space just buy/make a longer bed.
@@vgamesx1 as an importer of cnc I have seen a lot of horrible home made stuff. What must people just getting into cnc don’t think about is the side loading on the cnc bits and the ability to manage feeds and speed of the motor. Most use something like a Drexel tool for the little ones or a hobby router with maybe variable speed for the larger ones. Nether tool is designed for continuous use or for long runs and most suffer from premature bearing failure. I am NOT trying to say buy only, I have also seen some great diy ones but think very carefully about what you intend to cut and how often.
CNC or laser? The Snapmaker gives both, plus a 3-D printer. It's a little more expensive, but it's cheaper than buying 3 tools because you switch out the heads. There's also a lathe option for the larger models.
I've got a large CNC router, a small CNC mill and a 3D printer sitting here, and am fresh out of ideas for things to make. Guess I could try signs. :) Great video.
I use a cheap HVLP spray system (£50 about $65) to apply paint and varnish to projects. You can apply in thin coats so quick to dry and a good finish. I've found water based works as good as oil based, so a big reduction in fumes and better for the environment. You can use big box store gloss paint (or DIY stores in the UK), so compared to aerosols it's much cheaper.
Love the walkthrough of making one of these signs. I see so many people making them and fewer people taking the time to walk others through the process.
You can put a laser on a CNC machine but you can put a CNC cutter on a laser machine. If you buy a CNC then several of the bigger ones have a laser addon that can be purchased which, whilst not as good as a dedicated laser machine, will get you part of the way there and hold over until you decide if you want to get the full thing (space permitting).
Great episode, Bob and Team! I loved all the different areas, along with the tips, you touched upon; especially the primer for MDF. Extra kudos for that tip, thanks! And the sign was awesome too!
I've been using a cnc for about three years. I agree it is more versatile and the way to start. I also agree that a laser would be a great way to complement the cnc.... in fact I just ordered a Thunder Laser USA-Nova 35-100watt!!
Great vid! Don't forget to show love to your local makerspace... for folks that don't have the budget for lasers and CNC machines, or don't have the space or ability to handle smoke and sawdust, community shops are a great option to get access to these tools for a monthly fee. Not to mention that you'll meet people to collaborate and share with.
I have both a CNC and a laser at my maker space. im am super confident in my laser skills but my CNC I just don't have the same level of confidence so I default to the laser quite a bit. the I need to cut something thick I often times will let it just do a shallow cut and then take it to the band saw, that way I have a perfect line to follow and a nice clean cut
I got a cheap CNC/Laser combo device from Amazon. I did this because I didn't know if I was going to use it a lot or if I was going to be able to learn the application side of it. In the end it worked well for the project I had at the time but between my inexperience with it and it being cheap and not that good I ended up breaking it. My advice to anyone looking into a CNC, laser or combo device is to not buy an no name brand cheap Chinese made product. Even the cheap products are several hundred dollars and it's better to spend more up front for something mid range. At the very least may I suggest you get a product with an auto home function and auto stopping functionality.
How did you break it? What broke? Couldn't you fix it? There's not much to a CNC machine really. Maybe I got lucky with home and limit switches because I don't have any. I put my origin at the middle of my work envelope. I have soft limits too.
@@Iliketomakestuff my drawer slide machine runs over 200 inches per minute. That's fast enough for me. I limit it to 90 because that's honestly fast enough for me. It gets too real when my lead screws go over 1,000 RPM.
A big factor would be your workspace layout. Due to the way that a laser works, you would need it to be in a dust free environment. (Both for performance and to prevent fire hazards). So if you have a generally open shop area, a laser would not be an ideal choice. Even with a good dust collection system, the chances of having fouled mirrors and lenses is going to be a significant factor in your overall performance. With a CNC router, while you still want to clean excess dust off the machine, the device will not be quickly ruined by the fine dust that might remain in an otherwise well maintained area. With both options, you have available choices at several price points. However, a decent workhorse of a laser can be acquired for considerably cheaper than an equally reliable CNC router setup. The trade off though is that you need to know a whole host of different skills to work on and maintain your equipment at that point. With a CNC router there will be a number of skills which you would need to develop in a similar vein, albeit with significantly lower risk. (The inexpensive workhorse lasers may require you to change the bulbs yourself, handle focusing, etc....all of which is much more tedious than simply tramming the CNC). This isn't to short sell the value of the laser. I own one and actually take it over a CNC if made to choose. It just really depends on you and what skills you want to develop as a maker.
Biggest thing I like about laser, and probably the only way I'd consider buying one, is if I was limited to indoor space only. A laser cutter in a well ventilated room with filtration will work just fine in an office. A CNC on the other hand, no matter how good your dust management is, it'll still get everywhere. But like you said, a CNC is just vastly more versatile compared to a laser cutter, from the different profile tools, to an additional benefit if you have an open bed, you can cut pieces larger than your work surface in a pinch. A CNC can do anything a laser cutter will do, but the reverse isn't true.
OG Maker route: DIY CNC machine, there are sooo many great follow-alongs and 3d printed versions. Great video, i had that question in mind 2 years ago and build the mpcnc. I think you did a good job by putting these parts to the different machines, good to understand for newbies. Also: nice tip with colorcore, sadly i did not found such a material in europe, maybe in the future.
The main trouble with a cnc is the steep learning curve in using one compared to a laser. 3d printing and lasering are both pretty simple. cnc involves a lot more training, tool paths, what type tool part, what speed, horrendous.
at 8:40 when you prep for paint after removing dust shouldn't you use gloves or do a degreaser wash so you dont get any hand oils on the piece before painting? (i usually tend to worry more about oils then dust when prepping and i dont know if i'm wrong there)
Wish me luck as I enter the digital maker space. I just got your fusion 360 tutorial. And I heard you said that if I need help you guys make house calls. Awesome! Make On my Friends
You're right, not always, but you do have to allow for a large footprint to be solely dedicated to one of the machines, plus dust collection or fume extraction.
That's funny. That is the exact cnc I am looking at. I would have loved for someone to comment on your question. But no one did and so, unfortunately, it goes unanswered .
The lesson I learned is venting/filtration is a major concern. There's venting and letting wind carry the smoke and fumes away. There's filtering a percentage and venting the rest. There's completely filtering so you can rebreathe. If you have neighbors nearby or don't want nast stuff floating around you need a good filtration system and they are PRICEY. Bob is using the XL300 which is very cost effective at ~$1,300. I buy the filters kits for that one on ebay for $250 and built my own box with centrifugal fan to pull from the laser bed through the filters and then vent from there for $500 including filters. Then you're talking $4,500 MINIMUM for rebreathable air, which depending on where you live might be mandatory. Bottom line, the cost of filtration can cost as much as the machine and information you find online is HIGHLY subjective when it comes to what constitutes proper filration and smell. Laser vs CNCR (don't forget the R-outer, because 3D printers/Lasers are also "CNC" ) Anyway, but to me it's all about the kerf. Laser you cut and it fits. CNCR you cut and then cut again to fit. If you're doing intricate work then a CO2 Laser is far more cost effective in materials/time/wear on machine, but filters are an expensive consumable. Also, a diode laser is max 10W with dual lasers and is best for engraving and not cutting. You also can't cut clear acrylic which is a deal breaker for me.
One of my pet peeves is the entry level gear most of us start out on is all connected via USB which is total pain in the neck. On my first rig I am running usb over tcp so I have my CNC at the other end of the house. I can see it on a webcam and I know the hardware limits because they are all connected to an arduino so that tells me what switches are active. A hardware switch has to trip for some time before the arduino trips the main CNC controller. However USB is plug and pray, I would like to understand how the external programmer works however there has to be a better way, like a few simple boards where I can load the script onto the controller and it runs local with the CNC on its own battery backed up power because well in case of power interuption. Now with the 2nd machine I am building, we intended it to be a laser only however I bought a 3018 CNC kit so that it is future proof and so that I can mix and match parts with my 2418. So I have a spare spindle with this 3018 however if I damage my spindle on the 2418 then I can just swap it out without waiting on parts.
Entry level CNC does have its drawbacks. Getting new users to appreciate the minutia of CNC is not easy though. There are people willing to capitalize on the ignorance of others too. USB cannot be used for real time machine control at all. The protocol is polled and not interrupted so it simply doesn't support the timings involved. But you can make it appear to work. If you could actually discern events that happened in nanoseconds you'd see that it doesn't. But you can't. So it's all good for the people selling you that gear. As you're none the wiser. GRBL is one of the worst things that's happened to hobby CNC. It took the wind out of the sails of a more capable project. Oh well.
FYI, if you are making signs for outdoor, don’t ever use MDF unless you use outdoor formulated like extira. The better option would be precision board HDU or acrylic.
While not quite as potent as Bob's dedicated laser, I found adding a small add-on JT Photonics 7w laser kit and Lightburn software to my Shapeoko 3 CNC gives me some laser options for far less money. Maybe someday I'll upgrade to a more serious laser unit.
I've heard of sanding / roughing up surfaces to increase the surface area an adhesive has to work with. Not sure if that would have been of benefit to the plastic piece in the middle.
Sanding would definitely help. I don't know if surface area is why sanding helps glue stick. More like the glue can get in the scratches and grip. The whole smooth ice is more slippery than rough ice is deal.
what if you prop up the template slightly above the base board. that way you reduce or eliminate the chance for the letters to stick to the template when you apply glue.
Something that makes a CNC a bit more versatile than a dedicated CO2 laser is the ability to attach other tools to the CNC head. I agree that you should get a CNC if you can only afford one tool, because anything you might want to do with material more suited to a laser could be done with a diode attachment.
Laser is CNC too. The distinction is in the tooling. 3D printing is also CNC. Although some laser equipment does use weird proprietary commands. HGCL? I can't remember. Even that is CNC though. As in it is Computer Numerical Control. Heck PC paper printers are CNC. There's nothing in CNC that says it has to be G-Code. Even if it is G-Code there's so many dialects of it. Not every controller interprets commands the same.
An absolutely gorgeous sign. I remember watching the New Yankee Workshop. Great comparisons between CNC and Laser. Great job Bob, Josh and Andrew on the video. Keep up the great work.
I was curious how you would attach that thin underline of the word 'THE'. It looks like it ended up tipping over because it was much thicker in the final sign?
We laid it over just because it was going to be shipped. I think the CA glue would be ok and it would probably stay if it weren't being shipped across the country.
Great Video! Absolutely agree thats the choice is subjective, however from my experience in working in a university FabLab, most students tend to lean towards the Laser cutter which is easier to learn and really fast. CNC as a slightly steeper learning curve and needs more set up. So I would say that unless you know you want to cut thick material (over 1/4 inch ) then you are going to be quite happy with a laser cutter, which is what I personally recommend first due to its ease of use and versatility ,and even more so if you are a beginner in these technologies. Sign looks amazing! keep it up!
I laughed instantly at the intro seeing the sign and felt like Steve Roger's in Avengers "I get that reference". Used to always watch new Yankee workshop on pbs.
Oh this is awesome!! To keep with Norm's theme, you should start the video off with shop safety, and dont forget about safety glasses! Norm is a legend!!
Absolutely loved this build. I've seen the sign in person (I'll skip the storytelling here, did that on the Making It ep. 340 comment on Patreon), used to run The New Yankee Workshop website, and got to hang with Russ and Norm for about a decade as their web guy. They'd be proud of this (although I am not sure they would get the reference).
easy answer, get both, heck get all the tools🤣 but lasers and cnc routers are kinda similar, if you start looking into alu /steel / titanium or brass parts ,you need a cnc mill, but even a tormach pcnc 440 is VERRY expensive compared to a glowforge or similar laser
That sign is fabulous. I’d love one in my shop, but lacking the cnc and laser it’s going to be a long slow slog to get one. Unless it shows up as a physical good in the ILTMS Shop one day …
Hi Bob, why did you use hooks to hang the sign instead of an eyelet? If outside, Id be worried about a strong wind blowing it off the chain. Long time fan, great work!
Do you have a link to that air scrubber you showed in the video? The XL-300? Do you have a video about how effective it is and stuff? I've been in the process of building one, but that thing looked tiny and way better than the thing that I'm making. If it's more effective, then maybe I'll go that route instead.
Very nice job turned out very well there. Very well explained videos. Hopefully he loves it. Keep up the great craftsmanship and hard work my friends. Keep making. God bless.
Bob, have you ever tried shellac? It dries fast, and sands like a dream. I prefer to make my own using shellac chips, and denatured alcohol, but mixed it has a short shelf life.
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Could you do a review of different 3D printers? Or try to make your own?
hey how is it going with your ghia : )
Bob Smith Industries insta-set accelerator works great for any CA glue and doesn't hurt painted surfaces or leave a white residue like other activators will. I use a needle applicator bottle for better control instead of spraying, plus you don't waste as much.
You're promoting someone. Did you forget the subject? Just remained you the subject, Should You Buy a CNC or a Laser?
LOVED the tag on the end of the video replicating the PBS "thank you". That is a nice nod to the New Yankee Workshop and This Old House.
Incredible! This turned out even better than I could have imagined. Thank you for making my silly dream a reality
Ha! Of course! We love your work and will look for any opportunity to bring any of it to life.
Quick tip. For the template at the end, use wax OR Vaseline to cover the template back and edges this prevents the glue from sticking to it. Personally Vaseline is my favorite you can warm it a little and it becomes liquid and just paint it on. Super simple and glue never sticks to it. I also use it in some cases for painting to prevent paint from sticking.
I have premium RUclips membership because I can't stand all the ads. However, I know having sponsored ads 'baked' into the video by the content maker helps the upkeep costs. I doubly apricate how you put a timer bar during the ad so I can easily skip it, thank you so much. After all, after watching a ton of your video's why would I want to see SimpliSafe again and again .
Your channel is awesome 😎
I really appreciate the understanding 👍🏼 Thank you!!
@@Iliketomakestuff YW 😊
The only criticism I have for CNC machines is that they don't go "pew pew".
This sign made my day. I can't stop smiling. Great work ILTMS!
Love the sign, and thanks for that closing, it really brought me back to sitting with my dad and watching new Yankee workshop
Glad you enjoyed it
I wasn't go to say anything until you mentioned this project on the podcast twice, but this kind of comes full circle for me. I grew up with my dad watching the New Yanky Workshop and being very (in a not too mean way) jealous. He would often say things at the TV like, "Cut it again Norm!" or "Oh just make a perfect joint why don't you?!", and that is how Sunday Morning TV was in the house. . . I started watching your cannel when you were building the Tie Fighter firepit and then binge watched a lot of your catalog.... Afterwards, I called my sister and told her "I think I found my Norm Abram" We both laughed for awhile over it. I to am jealous of the cool things that you build, But I do appreciate that you do talk through the issues you run into and troubleshooting of the problems. I think that is way I don't yell at my laptop screen. I do try to keep up in my own way, I have a fair few of my own projects, some even turn out pretty good.
CNC is a large format planer as well. Further CNC tricks can start to replace bandsaws, jointers, and scroll saws at the expense of time and hot glue. I make cutting boards larger than 12" wide ..it is painful to think of life without a CNC to flatten them and make the juice grove. I own a laser and use that for thin high detail projects, but very rarely for cutting as the burnt edge is not my favorite. I would vote 4x4 CNC before laser for woodworkers. My 2 cents. Great video and sign. Now if only CNC machines could prime, sand and paint...🤔.
Good point. We made a bench out of a huge log a while ago and used the CNC as a planer.
After researching for quite a while I just pulled the trigger and bought a laser cutter for my workshop instead off a cnc. Main reason for picking the laser over the cnc was the dust a cnc would create. Other factors where the ease of use (No different tools and less cam) and hopefully that it would be easier to learn by multiple of my collegues
Very good point. You just have to vent a laser where you have collect the dust from a CNC
What laser did you pick?
@@ivmilicevic I got a BRM Pro 900. Its a dutch brand laser. 100 Watt glass CO2 laser
I love Brian’s work. So awesome to see the collab. I want one of these signs for my shop!
We're working on that. 😉
The New Yankee Workshop was one of my favorite shows to watch when I was younger and I've always seen your channel as a modernized version of it which is why I love watching it so much. Brian Kesinger's art and this episode were especially a treat for me. Definitely takes me back. Great job!
That sign looks amazing. I’m in the process of deciding laser or CNC so this video helped a lot.
I'm a Signwriter who works in a shop with both the CNC and a laser, and I would agree that you can use each for what they do best but they also allow just like the video to do collaborations using both
EPIC nod to the New Yankee Workshop. The design, the opening credit music, and the outro "...and viewers like you." Love the homage.
Anthony did a great job on the edit.
As a die hard NYW fan, this was epic, especially the "this was made possible by". Although I'm surprised I didn't hear "made possible by a generous grant from the Clagett Family Foundation". And as always, there's no greater safety tip than to wear these safety glasses.
I recently had this debate with myself. I ultimately ended up choosing a laser for my shop. I make a lot of cutting boards that customers want with their name/logo burned on to it. I think the CNC is fantastic and I will eventually get one but for my needs the laser was the best bet. This is entirely subjective (like you said) and specific to my needs. I enjoyed the video as always!
The music touch on the reveal is fantastic! Golf clap, chefs kiss, etc.
Anthony did a great job
I just bought a laser engraver 3 days ago, and it is SO MUCH FUN! I'm also in the process of building a CNC. I can't wait to have some fun with that as well.
That sounds awesome, good luck!
This probably won’t be seen but who knows, maybe.
Bob, I run a couple lasers and you are doing yours a disservice with a weak extraction system and air supply. I run my air at anywhere for 50 psi to 80 psi when doing cuts and have smoke free cuts. This also allows the laser beam to work more efficiently if the smoke is displaced quickly. The extraction system helps with this as well.
When one of your favorite RUclipsrs collabs with one of your favorite artists. Watching this surrounded by the six prints I have of Brian's art in my work office. So cool!
Thank you!
I bought an entry level CNC with an optional laser. After a lot of thought I permantly mounted the Spindle motor and then made a bracket to attach the laser to the side of the z-axis. The Laser had a switch on it to disable it so I added a switch to the power wire to the spindle to disable it. So I could turn on the spindle or laser depending on what I want it to do.
The only difference is the laser is offset from the spindle when it comes to setting it up. If I had a wider bed then I would add a second z-axis assembly to mount the laser so that it is easier to maintain and so that you can independly control the height of of the spindle/laser so you can move the device out of the way you are not using.
The idea of mounting both the laser and spindle on one machine at the same time is to make it easier to reconfigure the machine to do different work, instead of changing hardware and wiring I just have to change a few switches and then load in the code to run on the same system. All I need to do is change the starting position when I use the laser as it is offset from the spindle
3M makes an adhesive sheet that I attach to the back of my material before I cut it in the laser when I am making signs. The laser will cut through the material and the adhesive, and when I am ready to attach the letters I just peel the backing off the adhesive and stick it down. It's much easier than CA glue. The adhesive is called 3M 467MP Clear Adhesive Transfer Tape.
Pro tip. At 14.28 put some shallow shims under the layout template. That way you don't risk gluing it the to sign
Good call!
I've been working with a local engraver to do my laser engraving. However, now that I'm starting to fill those designs with resin, I think it just makes more sense to have the CNC. It seems there is a much lower entry point for decnet CNC machines with medium to large capacities too. The larger bed laser engravers really jump up in price.
They absolutely do. Josh and Anthony really love their Onefinity machines. We have used Avid CNCs in the shop here and really love the build quality.
The onefinity is absolutely overbuilt for what I use it for, its amazing. and the customer support is incredible
If you are really into the DIY, and like making things, you should take a look at the MPCNC from V1 Engineering. It stands for "Mostly Printed CNC". Many of the parts can be 3D printed by yourself and the files are free, then you purchase the electronics, spindle, and 3/4" tubing, and assemble. Can be built to almost any size you want within reason, larger with additional printed supports. Can also be turned into a laser engraver, plotter, or even a plasma cutter! Many videos on youtube.
The next step on the diy route is the printnc. You can make the case that the printnc punches wells above it's weight due to how rigid it is.
I've never even heard of the Onefinity machine. It looks great for the price too. I was looking into the X-Carve but it's $1,000 more than the Onefinity. Does anyone have any comparisons between the two?
Great job on the sign but extra great job on that finale snow scene. That exposure and color was really nice.
Glad you liked it
That Sign looks incredible...
The Art and the actual piece.
Truly amazing what happens when two great creators get into contact.
This is perfect timing since I am wanting to make a sign for my shop that I just rebuilt.
both. Next question.
sealing MDF, I use a HLVP gun (you can brush it on too if you want, this is just faster) with some shellac (light cut to start, heavier cut on 2nd coat). Since the shellac is mostly ethanol (I don't like the methanol smell so I stick to ethanol) it dries SUPER fast, as in I usually can spray the second layer after mere minutes.
Love the video! Personally I feel like using a CNC generally results in a slower workflow, as there is usually a cost of CAM work (generating tool paths for the CNC to go from design to cutting). Feeds and speeds (how fast to cut, how deep to cut, how fast to spin the bit, etc) is an art in itself. That being said, the CNC definitely lets you do more things so there’s always a trade off :)
Totally agree!
Man I miss Norm and the New Yankee Workshop. I remember the episode where he made signs using different techniques and met a master sign maker that did then by hand. Great homage with the Book of Boba Fett reference
It was a fun project for an awesome artist.
It would be a lot easier to make that sign with just a laser than just a CNC. The ability to make razor sharp inside corners is really useful. Also, you could start a signmaking business with less than $600 buying a large format diode laser, but $600 will not get you anything in the way of a large format CNC. Finally, the noisiest laser is quieter than the quietest CNC.
Just for clarity CNC stands for "computer numerical control" so the rig that's moving x, y, z is the CNC, doesn't really matter what's attached to it. So basically both of these are technically CNC whether its a laser, water jet, router etc. Great vid!
This drives me nuts when people reference "a CNC". I get it, some people aren't educated, but this guy should know better. 🤦♂
Exactly! It’s CNC; not “a CNC.” It is “a CNC router, a CNC laser” and so on. To call something “a CNC” doesn’t tell me what they have.
Shellac, plain old clear shellac, or the white shellac big box stores like to sell, is the best thing to seal MDF with a quick time drying and sealing properties
CNC over laser for sure. Besides what was already stated you can also add a drag bit and a diamond drag bit. These two will add the ability to cut cardboard and leather. And the diamond drag bit will allow you to engrave/etch into glass, aluminum, brass and acrylic. Fantastic sign either way.
You could have used the CNC or Laser to create recesses for the letters as well that would help with alignment and for better glue options. You could cut for example an extra set of letters, put them in the recess when you paint and then cut the paint, pull them out. And you would have the back of the good letters not painted, so you have 2 good surfaces.
Great video and excellent comparison. I want both LOL. Thanks for running us through the process of making this sign, it turned out fantastic.
Thanks for watching!
Lower your min power settings on your laser. The laser slows down in the corners and you're over powering the material with too much heat. That's why the corners aren't uniform and a tad burnt.
While that is a good practice on lasers that use Lightburn as control software, he is using a Full Spectrum Laser and it has its own software that handles corners differently.
@@otherdogdesign8666 I see. The lesson here is don't buy a laser you can't use Lightburn with. (or sponsored or whatever)
@@anarablehill5691 yes always lock yourself into proprietary software solutions whenever possible. It's always the best!
I've been arguing with myself as to which machine I need to purchase, CNC or laser . . . After watching your video and knowing what my ultimate goals are; I need to quit trying to cut corners and purchase both! It's in my budget to purchase both machines, but I don't get thrilled about spending money LOL. After watching this video, you've once again taught an old dog new tricks! Keep up the great and informative videos!
Great to hear!
A note on tack cloths: the sticky stuff in them can cause issues with some finishes. There are ones specifically created for water-based finishes to avoid problems there. The default, if not labeled, is for oil-based finishes. Use the right one for the finish.
I didn't know that, thanks for the tip.
Honestly, one project I would be super interested in seeing is building a DIY CNC Router. I've watched so many videos, but nothing as well produced as your content. Really breaking down the process, laying out the parts, and showing the build would be a really cool video if you ever want to tackle it.
oh boy. That would be hard for us because we aready have one and anything we'd make wouldn't be as good. There are a lot of makers that are currently doing it though. Two Cherries Instruments is building one.
Honestly, by far the easiest thing to DIY would probably be to get a 3D printer such as an Ender 3 and convert that into a CNC rather than trying to find individual parts or whatever to outright build your own and if you need more space just buy/make a longer bed.
@@vgamesx1 as an importer of cnc I have seen a lot of horrible home made stuff. What must people just getting into cnc don’t think about is the side loading on the cnc bits and the ability to manage feeds and speed of the motor. Most use something like a Drexel tool for the little ones or a hobby router with maybe variable speed for the larger ones. Nether tool is designed for continuous use or for long runs and most suffer from premature bearing failure. I am NOT trying to say buy only, I have also seen some great diy ones but think very carefully about what you intend to cut and how often.
CNC or laser? The Snapmaker gives both, plus a 3-D printer. It's a little more expensive, but it's cheaper than buying 3 tools because you switch out the heads. There's also a lathe option for the larger models.
I've seen it but we've never used one. I'm always cautious about one machine that claims to do it all, but if it works, then great!
I've got a large CNC router, a small CNC mill and a 3D printer sitting here, and am fresh out of ideas for things to make. Guess I could try signs. :) Great video.
Gotta put those robots to work.
Same here, mate plus an UR5e robot with a dremel on it:) I feel guilty every time i see some of them being sitting for a week unused.
I use a cheap HVLP spray system (£50 about $65) to apply paint and varnish to projects. You can apply in thin coats so quick to dry and a good finish. I've found water based works as good as oil based, so a big reduction in fumes and better for the environment. You can use big box store gloss paint (or DIY stores in the UK), so compared to aerosols it's much cheaper.
I've loved both Brian Kesinger and this channel for some time.
Two great tastes, taste great together.
This was an excellent video! Thanks!!
I had my CNC for a year before I bought my laser, since buying the laser 3 years ago I rarely use the CNC. I just love my laser.
Love the walkthrough of making one of these signs. I see so many people making them and fewer people taking the time to walk others through the process.
You can put a laser on a CNC machine but you can put a CNC cutter on a laser machine. If you buy a CNC then several of the bigger ones have a laser addon that can be purchased which, whilst not as good as a dedicated laser machine, will get you part of the way there and hold over until you decide if you want to get the full thing (space permitting).
the commercial pip with content video in the background is genius! love your stuff brother!
Is the laser guided by computer numerical control too? If so isn't the question = CNC router or laser?
Yes it is. We commonly refer to a CNC router as a CNC, but never have ai heard someone refer to it as a CNC laser.
Seeing that sign was a blast from the past too!
I know right?
Great episode, Bob and Team! I loved all the different areas, along with the tips, you touched upon; especially the primer for MDF. Extra kudos for that tip, thanks! And the sign was awesome too!
Our pleasure!
Oh heck yeah - I just got Brian's email about the The Tusken Workshop Design and I LOVE that you made it into a real sign!
It was begging to be a real thing.
@@Iliketomakestuff I couldn't agree more. Loved the little New Yankee Workshop nods in this episode too. Norm would be proud.
I've been using a cnc for about three years. I agree it is more versatile and the way to start. I also agree that a laser would be a great way to complement the cnc.... in fact I just ordered a Thunder Laser USA-Nova 35-100watt!!
Beautiful project, and I love the PBS reference at the end, Anthony nailed it!
Thanks!!
He sure did.
Great vid! Don't forget to show love to your local makerspace... for folks that don't have the budget for lasers and CNC machines, or don't have the space or ability to handle smoke and sawdust, community shops are a great option to get access to these tools for a monthly fee. Not to mention that you'll meet people to collaborate and share with.
Great information on CNCs vs Lasers. Thanks for sharing.
I have both a CNC and a laser at my maker space. im am super confident in my laser skills but my CNC I just don't have the same level of confidence so I default to the laser quite a bit. the I need to cut something thick I often times will let it just do a shallow cut and then take it to the band saw, that way I have a perfect line to follow and a nice clean cut
That's a good point. Even with a shop full of tools, you tend to gravitate to the ones you're most comfortable with.
The only way to grow is to get out of your comfort zone.
I got a cheap CNC/Laser combo device from Amazon. I did this because I didn't know if I was going to use it a lot or if I was going to be able to learn the application side of it. In the end it worked well for the project I had at the time but between my inexperience with it and it being cheap and not that good I ended up breaking it. My advice to anyone looking into a CNC, laser or combo device is to not buy an no name brand cheap Chinese made product. Even the cheap products are several hundred dollars and it's better to spend more up front for something mid range. At the very least may I suggest you get a product with an auto home function and auto stopping functionality.
Solid advice. A cheaper made machine can still work, but the limitations of the machine itself will limit what/how fast you can make
How did you break it? What broke? Couldn't you fix it? There's not much to a CNC machine really. Maybe I got lucky with home and limit switches because I don't have any. I put my origin at the middle of my work envelope. I have soft limits too.
@@Iliketomakestuff my drawer slide machine runs over 200 inches per minute. That's fast enough for me. I limit it to 90 because that's honestly fast enough for me. It gets too real when my lead screws go over 1,000 RPM.
Brilliant Bob! Super cool sign, and great artist!
A big factor would be your workspace layout. Due to the way that a laser works, you would need it to be in a dust free environment. (Both for performance and to prevent fire hazards). So if you have a generally open shop area, a laser would not be an ideal choice. Even with a good dust collection system, the chances of having fouled mirrors and lenses is going to be a significant factor in your overall performance. With a CNC router, while you still want to clean excess dust off the machine, the device will not be quickly ruined by the fine dust that might remain in an otherwise well maintained area.
With both options, you have available choices at several price points. However, a decent workhorse of a laser can be acquired for considerably cheaper than an equally reliable CNC router setup. The trade off though is that you need to know a whole host of different skills to work on and maintain your equipment at that point. With a CNC router there will be a number of skills which you would need to develop in a similar vein, albeit with significantly lower risk. (The inexpensive workhorse lasers may require you to change the bulbs yourself, handle focusing, etc....all of which is much more tedious than simply tramming the CNC).
This isn't to short sell the value of the laser. I own one and actually take it over a CNC if made to choose. It just really depends on you and what skills you want to develop as a maker.
Biggest thing I like about laser, and probably the only way I'd consider buying one, is if I was limited to indoor space only. A laser cutter in a well ventilated room with filtration will work just fine in an office. A CNC on the other hand, no matter how good your dust management is, it'll still get everywhere.
But like you said, a CNC is just vastly more versatile compared to a laser cutter, from the different profile tools, to an additional benefit if you have an open bed, you can cut pieces larger than your work surface in a pinch. A CNC can do anything a laser cutter will do, but the reverse isn't true.
OG Maker route: DIY CNC machine, there are sooo many great follow-alongs and 3d printed versions. Great video, i had that question in mind 2 years ago and build the mpcnc. I think you did a good job by putting these parts to the different machines, good to understand for newbies. Also: nice tip with colorcore, sadly i did not found such a material in europe, maybe in the future.
Great insights about both types of machines. And the sign turned out great!
Thanks Bruce!
Really appreciated the new yankee workshop vibe to the video *in norms voice* the most important safety rule is to wear these, safety glasses 😃
The main trouble with a cnc is the steep learning curve in using one compared to a laser. 3d printing and lasering are both pretty simple. cnc involves a lot more training, tool paths, what type tool part, what speed, horrendous.
at 8:40 when you prep for paint after removing dust shouldn't you use gloves or do a degreaser wash so you dont get any hand oils on the piece before painting? (i usually tend to worry more about oils then dust when prepping and i dont know if i'm wrong there)
I just noticed G1 Perceptor on your desk. Awesome!!
Wish me luck as I enter the digital maker space. I just got your fusion 360 tutorial. And I heard you said that if I need help you guys make house calls. Awesome! Make On my Friends
6:20 Another issue is shop space. CNCs tend to be bigger. Lasers tend to be smaller. This is not always the case, though.
You're right, not always, but you do have to allow for a large footprint to be solely dedicated to one of the machines, plus dust collection or fume extraction.
What is the practicality of going with a CNC Router/Laser combo like the FoxAlien Masuter for a low volume hobbyist?
That's funny. That is the exact cnc I am looking at. I would have loved for someone to comment on your question. But no one did and so, unfortunately, it goes unanswered .
I. Love. The. Anthony. End. Voice. Over.
It's a perfect nod to The Old Yankee Workshop!!!
He says thank you.
The lesson I learned is venting/filtration is a major concern. There's venting and letting wind carry the smoke and fumes away. There's filtering a percentage and venting the rest. There's completely filtering so you can rebreathe. If you have neighbors nearby or don't want nast stuff floating around you need a good filtration system and they are PRICEY. Bob is using the XL300 which is very cost effective at ~$1,300. I buy the filters kits for that one on ebay for $250 and built my own box with centrifugal fan to pull from the laser bed through the filters and then vent from there for $500 including filters. Then you're talking $4,500 MINIMUM for rebreathable air, which depending on where you live might be mandatory.
Bottom line, the cost of filtration can cost as much as the machine and information you find online is HIGHLY subjective when it comes to what constitutes proper filration and smell.
Laser vs CNCR (don't forget the R-outer, because 3D printers/Lasers are also "CNC" ) Anyway, but to me it's all about the kerf. Laser you cut and it fits. CNCR you cut and then cut again to fit. If you're doing intricate work then a CO2 Laser is far more cost effective in materials/time/wear on machine, but filters are an expensive consumable. Also, a diode laser is max 10W with dual lasers and is best for engraving and not cutting. You also can't cut clear acrylic which is a deal breaker for me.
Can't imagine a better cross over, Brian's work being so amazing. So fun, so fun, great work
One of my pet peeves is the entry level gear most of us start out on is all connected via USB which is total pain in the neck. On my first rig I am running usb over tcp so I have my CNC at the other end of the house. I can see it on a webcam and I know the hardware limits because they are all connected to an arduino so that tells me what switches are active. A hardware switch has to trip for some time before the arduino trips the main CNC controller.
However USB is plug and pray, I would like to understand how the external programmer works however there has to be a better way, like a few simple boards where I can load the script onto the controller and it runs local with the CNC on its own battery backed up power because well in case of power interuption.
Now with the 2nd machine I am building, we intended it to be a laser only however I bought a 3018 CNC kit so that it is future proof and so that I can mix and match parts with my 2418.
So I have a spare spindle with this 3018 however if I damage my spindle on the 2418 then I can just swap it out without waiting on parts.
Entry level CNC does have its drawbacks. Getting new users to appreciate the minutia of CNC is not easy though. There are people willing to capitalize on the ignorance of others too. USB cannot be used for real time machine control at all. The protocol is polled and not interrupted so it simply doesn't support the timings involved. But you can make it appear to work. If you could actually discern events that happened in nanoseconds you'd see that it doesn't. But you can't. So it's all good for the people selling you that gear. As you're none the wiser. GRBL is one of the worst things that's happened to hobby CNC. It took the wind out of the sails of a more capable project. Oh well.
FYI, if you are making signs for outdoor, don’t ever use MDF unless you use outdoor formulated like extira. The better option would be precision board HDU or acrylic.
If the MDF is sealed then the MDF is not really exposed to the elements. But if that seal is defeated then you may run into an issue.
While not quite as potent as Bob's dedicated laser, I found adding a small add-on JT Photonics 7w laser kit and Lightburn software to my Shapeoko 3 CNC gives me some laser options for far less money. Maybe someday I'll upgrade to a more serious laser unit.
One thing I think you didn't mention is the footprint of the machines. How much space in the shop are they going to take up?
Too late Bob. I got my one finity cnc about a month ago. And love it!
Josh and Anthony have one and they have nothing but great things to say about it.
I've heard of sanding / roughing up surfaces to increase the surface area an adhesive has to work with. Not sure if that would have been of benefit to the plastic piece in the middle.
Sanding would definitely help. I don't know if surface area is why sanding helps glue stick. More like the glue can get in the scratches and grip. The whole smooth ice is more slippery than rough ice is deal.
Hey Bob! I’d love to see you try hand cut dovetails, and bowtie inlays!
I've done inlays, but the time it takes to do hand cut dovetails well is a mastery of patience that I don't have.
@@Iliketomakestuff Bob you are a genius I’m sure you can pull it off!
what if you prop up the template slightly above the base board. that way you reduce or eliminate the chance for the letters to stick to the template when you apply glue.
Something that makes a CNC a bit more versatile than a dedicated CO2 laser is the ability to attach other tools to the CNC head. I agree that you should get a CNC if you can only afford one tool, because anything you might want to do with material more suited to a laser could be done with a diode attachment.
Laser is CNC too. The distinction is in the tooling. 3D printing is also CNC. Although some laser equipment does use weird proprietary commands. HGCL? I can't remember. Even that is CNC though. As in it is Computer Numerical Control. Heck PC paper printers are CNC. There's nothing in CNC that says it has to be G-Code. Even if it is G-Code there's so many dialects of it. Not every controller interprets commands the same.
An absolutely gorgeous sign. I remember watching the New Yankee Workshop. Great comparisons between CNC and Laser. Great job Bob, Josh and Andrew on the video. Keep up the great work.
I was curious how you would attach that thin underline of the word 'THE'. It looks like it ended up tipping over because it was much thicker in the final sign?
We laid it over just because it was going to be shipped. I think the CA glue would be ok and it would probably stay if it weren't being shipped across the country.
I'll have to try the aluminum primer. BIN shellac has been my Frank's red hot primer for a while.
Great Video! Absolutely agree thats the choice is subjective, however from my experience in working in a university FabLab, most students tend to lean towards the Laser cutter which is easier to learn and really fast. CNC as a slightly steeper learning curve and needs more set up. So I would say that unless you know you want to cut thick material (over 1/4 inch ) then you are going to be quite happy with a laser cutter, which is what I personally recommend first due to its ease of use and versatility ,and even more so if you are a beginner in these technologies.
Sign looks amazing! keep it up!
I laughed instantly at the intro seeing the sign and felt like Steve Roger's in Avengers "I get that reference". Used to always watch new Yankee workshop on pbs.
I'd love to have a laser for leatherworking, but something like a GlowForge just isn't big enough for a lot of the stuff I like to make.
There are a lot of machines with larger work areas, but do your research on the software. That is the real limiting factor when using a laser.
Oh this is awesome!! To keep with Norm's theme, you should start the video off with shop safety, and dont forget about safety glasses! Norm is a legend!!
Sure is.
Absolutely loved this build. I've seen the sign in person (I'll skip the storytelling here, did that on the Making It ep. 340 comment on Patreon), used to run The New Yankee Workshop website, and got to hang with Russ and Norm for about a decade as their web guy. They'd be proud of this (although I am not sure they would get the reference).
easy answer, get both, heck get all the tools🤣
but lasers and cnc routers are kinda similar, if you start looking into alu /steel / titanium or brass parts ,you need a cnc mill, but even a tormach pcnc 440 is VERRY expensive compared to a glowforge or similar laser
Thats in interesting dust boot. is it custom? I made one for my cnc, but its missing some tthings this design might reprimand it
Why yes, yes it is. Josh designed it.
@@Iliketomakestuff very clever. If it means anything to him, tell him im impressed.
J’adore vos vidéos ! Merci !!!
Pour couper du MDF, qu’est ce qui est préférable : une CNC ou le Laser ?
That sign is fabulous. I’d love one in my shop, but lacking the cnc and laser it’s going to be a long slow slog to get one. Unless it shows up as a physical good in the ILTMS Shop one day …
Hi Bob, why did you use hooks to hang the sign instead of an eyelet? If outside, Id be worried about a strong wind blowing it off the chain. Long time fan, great work!
Do you have a link to that air scrubber you showed in the video? The XL-300? Do you have a video about how effective it is and stuff? I've been in the process of building one, but that thing looked tiny and way better than the thing that I'm making. If it's more effective, then maybe I'll go that route instead.
Very nice job turned out very well there. Very well explained videos. Hopefully he loves it. Keep up the great craftsmanship and hard work my friends. Keep making. God bless.
Thank you very much!
@@Iliketomakestuff not a problem at all.
Bob, have you ever tried shellac? It dries fast, and sands like a dream. I prefer to make my own using shellac chips, and denatured alcohol, but mixed it has a short shelf life.
Just barely, but never for something like this. I really should experiment with it!