Vintage Celestion Greenback Prices are Ridiculous - What are the best Alternatives?
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- Опубликовано: 27 авг 2024
- Vintage Celestion Greenbacks (1973 and earlier, with Pulsonic Cones) are the holy grail of vintage hard rock tone but the prices have sky rocketed. In this video I compare a vintage Greenback to 2 comparatively affordable speakers:
Gear:
1970 Celestion G12M25 55Hz Greenback
1983 Celestion G12-65
1987 Celestion Marshall Vintage V30
202X Marshall DSL20HR Amp
202X Nordin Comet Krystin Guitar
The Celestion EVH speaker sounds great - I believe it’s essentially a Heritage G12 Greenback.
Yeah I understand it’s the same speaker. It’s great but a bit bright to me
@@JohanSegeborn i have a 1x12 cabinet with a G12 EVH and its nothing but bright. Maybe you should try another one ;)
@@JohanSegeborn I wonder how much the age of the speaker attenuates the highs - if that is the difference
Dave - yes, its a UK made heritage G12M greenback with an EVH sticker on it. I have 4 in a quad box, and I also have 4 1982 G12-65's. The EVH is definitely a fantastic speaker that is super good value and sound great. Not bright at all IMO, but more middy than the 65's. Strangely enough - my Super Lead sounds better through the 65's. The 5150III sounds great through either, although the EQ needs to be set differently
@@JohanSegeborn I have the M Heritage and don't think they are too bright either. The guys from Zilla have a nice comparison of the Heritage range and the Classic M here ruclips.net/video/RpVqB7rvx_g/видео.html and here with the G12-65 Heritage ruclips.net/video/X0Xl5k5dKd8/видео.html The EVH and M Heritage actually seem on the darker side comparatively. Hope you don't mind me posting those links...
I like the Greenback best, it has something the other two doesn't. Feels like a richer tone.
The problem is, Johan makes all these sound awesome…”And now I am going to compare a vintage greenback to a rear speaker from a 76 Monte Carlo…” proceeds to wail and sound great. Why doesn’t mine sound like that hahaha. Thanks for the always enjoyable and informative videos!
Thanks my friend! :-)
Hi Johan , what would be ur choice if you could use any 2 speakers in a 2/12 cab ? Thanks
I tested an early vintage 30, with the same guitar loop, with a WGS veteran 30, and I ended up preferring the veteran every time. And I love the vintage 30 sound! Definitely recommend it for a cheaper classic alternative!
I think the Veteran has more character when you compare it to the Vintage 30. A super crunchy and aggressive midrange, also more and tighter low end, plus a more open sounding top end.
I also had the same experience with the WGS!
I use a 2x12 with wgs veteran 30 as well as either a 2x12 or 4x12 wgs reaper 55hz 12h30. Amazing
I had the opposite experience. I disappeared in a band setting with all Veteran 30’s. Had to go back to my British made Vintage 30’s. The Veterans are smoother and have a more full bodied tone. But that nastiness of the V30 just slices through a mix and sounds more rock n roll, to me. NOT talking about Chinese V30’s. Hate those.
@@MrWilly2204I have Vintage 30’s I bought new from early in their history. Lots of people moan about a midrange spike in them but that might be later ones or maybe the Chinese. Not sure what era the mid spike is in. I don’t have a problem with them. Seems like a lot of stuff the Chinese makes is bad quality anyway.
I am a bit of a Marshall V30 nut…I own several sets from 87 to 2003…My favorite speakers ever….this video is no exception,I liked the V30 the most,followed by the Greenback,then the 65….
Greenbacks have a tone that is pleasing to most people, including myself. The V30-type speaker has a midrange hump that you either love or hate. I really don't care for it. The G12-65's, in my opinion, are probably the best band situation speaker. They play right in that sweet spot frequency range where the guitar lives and cuts thru like crazy. To me they're sort of like a modern-sounding Greenback that has less overtones and is more focused.
I find the Marshal spec V30 or G12 vintage to be quite different sounding from the standard V30. It doesn't have that huge upper mid spike like the standard V30. It's got a bit more lower mids compared to the standard V30. It's more open and has more clarity
Hey Adam, Honestly, I've never played thru the Marshall spec V30's, only the standard V30. I may like the Marshall version. As for Greenbacks, I've never tried the Celestion 55Hz version only the 75Hz which is maybe why I like the G12-65's so much too because they are probably more similar to each other. Although I have tried WGS's version of the 55Hz Greenback and I didn't like it because to me it sounded too warm and muffled. I also didn't like WGS's version of the G12-65 because to me it sounded too cold and ice-picky.
I have these g12-65’s in my 2104 combo, which I actually never play. I think they sound really good and much better than modern v30’s
I too have 2 such speakers in Marshall Fifty solid state combo. It creates outstanding cleans and very good overdrive sounds. Yes, they sound different the other 2 but what is the point of all the speakers sounding the same?
Good topic Johan.
Thank you!
I've been diggin my Weber's and MojoTone speakers for year's now.
Man, that original greenback just blows me away. But to be fair, after a few seconds of listening to either the 65 or V30, they both acclimate to the rock tones quickly. It's just a bit of a frownie face when you go back to the greenback because it's worlds better to my ears.
hey aren't you that Steve who recorded those Guitar Hero tracks?
@@alrecks619 I am indeed.
To be fair, the reissue greenbacks are pretty good. Once they've aged a little the should get mellower. Out of the two alternatives showcased here, I'd go for the G12-65. It such a great speaker in it's own right!
Can't wait for Johan to get his hands on the Celestion Hempback.
No good demos out there yet, but the frequency plot that I saw looks promising.
Interesting, I’ll look for it!
Very cool Johan. I am surprised how much closer the Marshall Vintage is to the Greenback than the G1265. I have an original G1265 in my 4010 combo, and it works great with that amp, but it doesn’t seem to pair as well with other amps. That Marshall Vintage is a real sleeper. Great sound.
Thanks Nick! Yeah Marshall Vintage is killer speaker
@@JohanSegeborn I normally think of Vintage 30’s as being nasally and a bit muffled in the top end, but perhaps these early Marshall Vintage ones were voiced a bit differently?
The greenback was the best, but the V30 1987 completely held its own. Love the V30 sound. Still hoping one day you dip your toes into capturing IR's of all these great speakers and cabs you've treated us to. God bless and rock on 👍😎🎸
Thanks J! Yeah I thought the V30 came pretty close, although a little less sparkling
V30 is 2nd place only to the 1970GB WOW!!
Johan, Thank you very much for another topnotch conetone exercise.
May I call you Tone Commander in Chief?
After having been tempted to breaking the bank and purchasing four Greenbacks w/ Pulsonic cones for my Marshall 6960ALE, I took a pragmatic 100$ shortcut:
Now I get perfect tone from my Celestion G12T-75 filled cabinet by looping in a 31 band equalizer just before the power amp section of the Marshall 6100LE.
Believe it or not, the equalizer can make it sound like loaded w/ V30s, Greenbacks, Creambacks you name it. As it’s a stereo eq, it gives me 3 predialed cab options by switching it off or toggle L/R channels.
Another thing to keep in mind: Pulsonics come in quite a broad variation. So the eq helps removing that little annoying part of the spectrum that spoils perfect tone.
Thanks, glad to hear it!
Great alternatives you picked, and you made all three sound good. Still, I think there is a reason for the price difference. The GB just sound more mature and has more "authority".
You get great sound out of the amp. Nothing wrong with DSL20. Thanks Johan!
Thanks Bengt!
@@JohanSegeborn I have many different speakers but my fav is the Celestion G12H-30 Anniversary Speaker for its super sweet tone IMO! But I also use Celestion the G15V-100 and older G12H-100 speakers as well! And now I prefer 1ea or 2ea 1x12 and 1x15 cabs w/heads now for ease of mobility! I don't use 4x12 cabs anymore, cuz they're just too big and bulky to lug around.
@@JohanSegeborn Hey Johan, how about doing a test of mixing pups with different magnets? like an alnico 5 in the bridge with an alnico 2 in the neck position. and an alnico 2 and 5 HB in the neck with a ceramic in the bridge? etc. I have heard that some don't mix together well and some do. That way guitar players can know a little about changing pups to optimize their guitar tone even when the switch in is the middle position!
1970 greenback was easily best/richest tone.
Great job shining some light on alt GB speakers. Wish I could have seen your DSL20 settings. I assume the master was close to dimed. Thanks Johan - love your channel.
Thanks Jeff! Glad to hear it. Yeah master dimed and very little bass and zero resonance. Rest on 5
The g12 65 has a cocked wah mid kind of sound in this clip compared to the 2 others. The vintage 30 is really close, maybe a bit darker? The greenback is still king for those tones.
Yeah the 65 is the least balanced
for anything 1990s onwards, just can't get wrong with the V30. whereas G12-65 sound more like late 70s to mid-80s and Greenback is, well, THE CLASSIC ROCK speaker.
Have to say the G12M25 are the best sounding here, although the G12-65 are a second. I've never like Vintage 30 type speakers, they just have an unpleasant harshness I try to avoid.
I agree the Vintage 30 sound weird even on Slash recordings... I have 4x12 with two of them on top row and 2 Sidewinder on bottom. That evens things up and sound actually quite good.
I've said it before, the G12-65, G12-75 are the two most under rated hidden speakers in the world of speakers. If you want the sound of your amp to be heard then these are to two to get anything else you get the sound of the speaker, nice and neutral.
I've got mix of this speakers in my 212 Cab - sounds amazing! Regards!
Hi, Johan!
For the last 7 years I am playing greenback on my Valvestate 92, so its my desirable tones and tunes, but the black 87 is nice too!
See you!
Siegfried
See you my friend
I swear by the Vintage 30s, they're so good with lots of styles as well
You're totally right about the Greenback Johan - much more expansive, particularly in the chordal work. The Vintage 30 was good though. How do you think a modern Fullback would stand up?
The Fullback is one of my favorite contemporary Celestions! Cheers
Awesome video! Great sounds all around 😎‼️🔥
Thanks!
nice video from the king.i like the v30 the best.but the greenback is the king of kings.for alternative yes the v30 is nice.
Thanks my friend
Come on people, your kidding yourself if you think the other two speakers G12-65 and Vintage V30 can compete against this Vintage Greenback! In isolation the other two speakers would sound good, but put them against this beautiful sounding Greenback and they just sound reedy or muddy. In fairness, I personally prefer the fuller sounding Vintage V30 over the G12-65, but man that Greenback is just full of warm overtones, yet articulated midrange without ever sounding harsh in the treble regions. It is, and always will be the perfect guitar speaker that just captures the right frequency range of our beloved Axes. Rock on. 🎸
I find that the G12-65 is really good for certain applications where Greenbacks don't sound that great, for example in Fender or Marshall open-back combos, but they don't have the same vibey mids as a Greenback. Out of these two, I'd go for the V30 in a closed-back cabinet. I wonder how a regular old Celestion V-Type would sound as a Greenback sub, if a regular new Greenback is too bright or expensive.
Going to put a old g12 65 in my 50 watt 1x12 open back marshall combo now because of this comment!
The Rola?
I heard that NEO Creambacks is very close to the vintage Greenbacks. Not the same, but very close. It would be cool to see comparison of this two
That 80s vintage 30 sounds really really good
Celestion also offers the lower priced V-Type and A-type speakers. I find that the V-Type model sounds very good, very balanced. The A-Type sounds a bit too dark for me. But I read that these 2 speakers complement each other very well in a 2x12 cab or in a 4x12 cab. And these 2 Celestion models are not too costly for brand new speakers...
Great...now these alternative will have their price sky rocket😉
Hahaha! 😂
@Johan Segeborn TOO late for me! Will catch the replay! Rock ON! \m/
Johan....You have compared many speakers to those vintage Greenbacks. Would you trust a 25w speaker in a Mesa Boogie Lonestar Special (30w amp). I want a greenback in there but I feel like I should get something with a bit more power handling. The Creambacks seem interesting. What would you suggest for a greenback tone ~30-50w power handling, (1x12 cabinet). Great channel...I love your content.
Glad to hear it! For longer periods of play I usually go with twice the power of the amp. A vintage Celestion G12-65 sounds really close to a greenback. The Mojotone BV60 is great too. I like the G12H cream back too. Cheers!
@@JohanSegeborn I am leaning toward trying a creamback H75. I do have a couple of G12-65 (not sure if any are vintage vs heritage). I think one is in my Marshall 4010 and reluctant to use that one. Does Heritage series sound like vintage G12-65?
I wish he would have also compared a eminence private jack I think they sound very close to the greenback. Great video though. All great guitar sounds Johan makes !!🙂
Thanks! I can make another video on the best alternatives available new today too
I have a quad of 1983 G12-65 in a 67 Slant Marshall 4x12. That cab sits next to a 69 4x12 Marshall cab with original greenbacks. I was really surprised at how close the 65 is next to the greenbacks. Maybe only slightly darker, but with a very small eq change, it's even closer! The difference in your video is very pronounced! I mounted the 65's to hold me over while running a half stack with a 66 JTM45/100. The 65's are so close I never bothered to swap them out. There are quite a few variations of the G12-65 speakers, so maybe that is entering in on the sound similarities in my case.
Try those 65s in an open back cab incredible bass awesome sounds better than sealed
Thanks for share Johan, very clear comparison….
Off topic: the price of dsl will grow due these videos… 😂
Cheers 😂
Hi Johan. I got V30 and G12H-75, however my back is gone and I was considering a Neodimio Speaker, especially for the combo Marshall DSL40C. Seems that Neo Creamback is resonable good. What do you think? A review on this kind of speakers would be very appreciate. Cheers
Hi, that’s an interesting topic indeed!
Just picked up a mint condition dsl40c (old version) man does that 70/80 speaker sound like shit!
I put a Eminence DV-77 into my modded DSL 40C. It's pretty similar to a G12M65 creamback, but definitely unique.
my intention was to lighten up the combo with a decent neodimio speaker and from some youtube reviews, seems that tha neo g12 creamback is preatty good. My DSL40C could always be connectet also to my external 1x12 Palmer cab with inside a V30 Vintage in a 2 x 16ohm speacker output of the Amp... the Palmer Cab weights 19 kg. Everithing under 20kg is good to me. At moment even with a light Seventy/80, the dsl weights 23.7kg too much for my back (I'm 50 y.o.)
1970 Greenback is just perfect!!
Although I am led to believe that there were many variations the late 70's to mid 80's G12 M 65s with 1777cones sound pretty good in open back cabs,
G12 H 80's with 444 cones in sealed cabs these were pretty good sounding and probably can be had for reasonable price compared to their predecessors
The greenbacks sound fuller to my ears.
Yeah it’s a more complex sound
It's the greenback for me. Surprised, because I usually don't like them. They tend to be very bright which is why I've always preferred the vintage 30.
Dialekten är spot on!
It's a bit funny, everyone is aiming for the holy grail Pulsonic tone. There are plenty speakers claiming to capture the sound.
I am looking for an affordable solution myself, to get my beloved Pulsonics into a save place...
Listening to myriads of clips, I come to the conclusion, the G12-65 captured the essence of the G12M Greenback better than most speakers that were designed to do that special trick. And, to my even bigger surprise, the V30 gets the G12M 55Hz tone pretty good.
If you add some more wattage to the higher wattage speaker you'll notice the tone changes a lot
The Greenback and the Vintage 30 have the most balanced “natural” tone. I didn’t like the 65 at all!
Honestly.. RI greenbacks or Weber speakers. The 15% mojo diff you won't even notice. You also won't be stressed if you pop a 100$ speaker cone vs a vintage cone in a cab that cost you 1500$
G12 M 25 watt 55hz bass cones were factory loaded in some of the Marshall PA cabs
Ever come across a T1977? Has a black center of an aluminum cone. I might have a chance to get a couple. Curious what they sound like
Or, you could find a pair of G10n-40. Wire a pair for 4oms and find your earplugs, for 80 watts of pure 70's glory that can still clean up on your v knob. I prefer them to my china greenback 12. You can always find fizzy or fuzzy, but it is better to be able to back away.
The Vintage 30 is a great speaker! Also the Scumback speakers are a good (more expensive) alternative. Cheers!
Yeah the V30 held up really well think. Cheers!
All sounds like Marshall's great tone with great speakers and a great guitar player to make the mojo💯👍👍👍
Thanks Brandon! Glad to hear from you!
I can't just help myself but prefer the G12-65 here. The V30 seems more muffled and missing something in the mids IMO. Thanks Johan!
Exactly, many people say they are rich in the middle but quite contrary they sound just scooped.
All sound amazing🎸😎
man the '70 greenback really shines on the low power chord stuff but lead higher up the neck the differences fade a bit
Vintage 30 is plentiful and sounds great. A classic staple. Can't go wrong with a Vintage 30. They sit nice in a mix and record well.
I do like the old v30. thought i wasnt going to like it, pleasant surprise.
Last year I managed to get a 4x12 with the G12Cs in it for less than £200. Bargains can be found....
Hi Johan, when are we going to see a impluse response of vintage speakers?
I was about to ask this question on another video.
I guess I'm a greenback guy, it has just the right frequencies and the right "grit" for me.
Hopefully if the price keeps going up somebody eventually makes a decent copy. so far it seems like no one does
Yeah, eventually there will be a business case for it.
i think the best cheap alternative for a vintage greenback ist the wgs greenberet and the ted weber legacy speaker
All great sounding speakers naturally. I'm curious how a V30 would pair up with a G12-65, as compared to two G12M's.
Thanks Sem!
That’s a good idea btw
i'm here lets hear it rocking out : )
The différence is so huge, hard to think it is the same amp.
Vintage 30 is very amp/cab-dependent. Great in some, not in others. Sounded ok here, but preferred the other 2. Greenback still sounds best of the 3 to my ears, IF you’re going for the classic rock thing
Hej Johan,
Thanks for another great video 😊 If I would buy a new cab with G12M25 55Hz - I guess a Marshall MR1960AX could be one option or is it better to look for a used cab in your opinion? I have a 1987x Plexi - currently w V30s but I really looking for this early/mid 70 sound.
Allt gott från Kungsbacka 😉
Thanks Anders! I would buy a 1990s 1960AX if you’re going for the reissue
I love Celestion, but I don't think they make the best Greenback. Warehouse, Eminence, Scumback, Tone Tubby have all made more vintage sounding speakers to my ears. I think Celestion is just really consistent and can keep up with the super high demand of companies.
+1 on the scumbacks. Never compared to anything but a g12L35 but i love them. They also pair well with the L35 too.
I disagree. Watch the Metropoulos G12M Speaker Shootout here on RUclips. The reissue Greenbacks are superior to the ASW and Scumback IMO.
Weber Legacy speakers can get quite close. Eminence Legend GB128 can be a good option and Jensen Electric Lightning (more bass for sure).
Vintage Greenback by a country mile. Thanks Johan.
Not a bad sound here, but unfortunately to my ear, you just can't beat the greenbacks. Btw. i had never heard the 55hz pre Rola M version. Marshall used the 75hz for M and 55hz for the H. the 55hz M sounds very balanced and organic.
Thanks! Marshall used 55Hz M in their model 1935 Bass Cabs
I think I’ll try the regular 25w G12M. It’s more affordable than the Heritage line and I often enjoy their sound. Nothing quite hits the Pulsonic sound, I’m afraid. Should probably get another e609 as well.
You can tell that the V30 is very broken in. I have several, mostly from the '90s, and they're briiiiight. Also, check out the Eminence CV75. I bought a 1960B with a Quad of CV75s in it and they're a surprisingly good sounding speaker. They don't have that weird tubby low mid thing that my other Eminencees have.
God those greenbacks are amazing
5:34 ACE!!!!
I am really impressed by the G12M65 as it definitely had that legendary GB character but just sounds more compressed than the real GB. The V30... I just can't dig that mid hump, sounds weird but I had one in my Fender Supersonic 60 and thought it worked well in it.
From what I hear the greenback has a bigger mid hump than the V30, just less sizzle.
He should just change these videos to "XXX that used to be inexpensive before this video dropped".
I think it would be cool to hear a comparison between a 4x12 cab eith just black back and a cab with just green backs to a cab with a mix (2 black backs 2 green backs in the same cab)
Johan, I watched your EQ-matching video with an old and new Greenback. I considered doping a kind of layman’s version of the EQ-matching on a new Greenback with a multiband EQ - Cut the highs and slightly boost the low mids. Maybe not perfect, but this would give me an approximation af an old Greenback, no?
Hi Andreas, I actually tried both pre and fax loop EQ for that but it didn’t work for me I’m afraid
Ok, bummer - I thought I had it nailed ;-)
You should check out the video Metropoulos G12M Speaker Shootout here on RUclips. The reissue Greenback performs very well compared to a 1967 pre-Rola Greenback. Not as good, but very useable.
You should demo a rawson sparfield star finder speaker an identical copy to the fane crescendos, even made with the same tooling.
I have an obsession with vintage loudspeakers, especially British. It's a problem, I'm admitting I have a problem.
Prized possession is a 10" WB Stentorian.
Next you have to make amends.
Hahaha! 😉
@@jaycee30865 Haha yes, just not yet!!.
Ah man, I'm French, that's a big problem too, but I am not sure that it is related to vintage guitar speakers
try the Peavey 90's 5150 sheffield 1200. They sound very close to vintage greenback and are quite cheap. Not harsh, No fizzy top end, beautifull mids, and fit easy in the mix with just an sm57
Yeah the Sheffield is a good speaker indeed
Hi. There are 3 types of cones codes for g 12 65 which ones are NOT bass cones and are ok for guitar? Thanks!
1777 is the one you're looking for
I have 3 Sept. 1975 Blackback T1221 G12M 25w 75hz 16ohm with original Kurt Mueller 1777 cones, one has a little cone cry, otherwise they work fine. What are they worth?
Amazing how the cabinet is always in the exact same position. This is how "sweet spot" should be
The greenback sounds best is it 75 cps or 55 cps?
Thanks, this is the 55Hz model (T1511)
You should demo a Weber Legacy against a Greenback. Ted Weber designed this speaker to be an alternative to the original holy grail!
The Celestion-made Marshall Vintage (rated at 70w) and the Vintage 60 (rated at 60w) are two different speakers. I own both types from different eras and they are definitely NOT the same. The Marshall Vintage (always UK Made) sounds warmer and less fizzy than the Vintage 30. Also, it hasn't got that dominant midrange hump. Marshall Vintage = Classic and Hard Rock; Vintage 30 = Metal, to my ears.
the 70 CG 55hz sounded the most well rounded and creamy
Johan what speakers did Marshall use in the Marshall bottoms that Jack Bruce used the 4x12's...
Thank You!!!
Ad the early version of the G12M-70. It sounds similar to the Marshall Vintage in this clip. Underated speaker.
The G12M sounds ideal. The 65 is kind of flat, one dimensional, the Vintage 30 is closer, but the highs aren't as nice.
That’s been my experience with vintage 12-65’s as well as a pair of reissues. Flat and one dimensional. And I tried them with three vintage 2203’s and a pair of 4104’s which everyone says those speakers are made for. Nope, vintage Greenback or even Blackbacks are much more lively, complex etc.
The Vintage Speaker from the Marshall loudspeaker is not the same speaker as the Vintage 30. I really don't understand why Johan call him that? Marshall Vintage has 70 Watt and Vintage 30 has 60 Watt the differences are more ...
Yeah, Marshall, Mesa, Harley Benton etc V30 are all different speakers.
@@JohanSegeborn i found this...
Marshall Labeled = T3897(16 ohm)/T3896(8 ohm)
Mode Four = T5321(16 ohm)
Mesa Labeled = T4413(16 ohm)/T4335(8 ohm)
Celestion Labeled = T3904(16 ohm)/T3903(8 ohm)
Earlier Celestion = T4297(16 ohm)
Relic 30 = T5321(16 ohm)
ruclips.net/video/SQqJgZkuK2M/видео.html
Nothing is going to compare to that 1970's Greenback. I bet even very few Greenbacks from the same era.
Hello Johan, I have a 1981 g12-65 with big silver dust caps and a smooth cone. Do you have any experience with those? How do they compare to small dust caps and ribbed cones?
I just put the wgs green beret in my Marshall orgin 20 yesterday, haven’t been able to crank it up yet. Hope it goes well
A 20W tube amp actually needs a 30-40W rated speaker to be completely safe, but I would definitely use the Green Beret there. Cheers
From what i heard I don't know if this is true, but I heard that thinner speakers "distort" more and sound better because of it but break more easily. Maybe someone could make some very thin cones that don't break as easily if that is possible.
Yeah absolutely, that’s a huge factor
Well, they *were* reasonably priced alternatives, until you did this video, lol! Watch prices skyrocket on those now too...
Johan, what's your opinion of the DSL100?
Great amp
@@JohanSegeborn 👍 coming from you, that means a lot!! I own one and love it.