It's simply unfeasible under capitalism. The POINT of capitalism is to expand profiteering (see: "exploitation" or "theft") to all possible ends and finding new means to extract further profit, since the Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall requires infinite expansion (in an increasingly finite Earth) or else profit will fall. It's not just some funny coincidence that public services were incredible under the USSR, socialist China and many other socialist experiments. When you put power in the hands of the workers instead of in the hands of the elite, things that benefit everyone (healthcare, public transit, education) all improve in both quality AND access. ...and, *no:* simply "voting" won't do anything; aforementioned elites would never allow a system to exist that's so powerful as America's so-called democracy is mythologised to be. Why would the ultra-powerful not only allow but _pay for_ a system that could bring about an end to their tyranny? Such a system never existed, and they want you to imagine their sham-democracy works so you'll waste your time on that instead of making actual, effective changes. All capitalist countries do this, of course, not just America. "The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house." The only way to improve life for the working class is to exile those who exploit us to the point of not only them bringing about the end of humanity, but all life on Earth. These exploiters can only be removed in the same way they established their power in the first place; by cannon and by rifle.
Also, I find that Detroit has such potential for a great commuter/regional/international rail system but it's being hindered by old ideologies and the dark legacy of the fall of Detroit.
It’s been said before but Detroit just doesn’t have a lot of money to go around and when they do get federal funding leaders seem to spend it in the worst ways. The metro area needs transportation experts who can oversee projects or something
I mean, to be fair, it's kind of hard to do huge capital projects like that in the position Amtrak has been in since its inception. Especially when they don't own the vast majority of track miles they operate on, not to mention the chronic lack of federal funding like you see with the federal highway fund. That said, at least they got something reasonable in the last budget. Sadly, doubt they're getting much more.
@@eirinym You mean without asking the military to step in and call it matter of national security because High Speed Rail can move personnel and equipment around the country very quickly.
The only fault with that is the New Hampshire to Boston electrification in the late 1990s. so I guess if Amtrak doesn’t do anything for the next century then It will get that achievement.
@@KRYMauL They won't though, that's not really the military's style. Instead if anything they'll pay some company billions for a half-baked high-speed diesel or rocket-propelled locomotive instead.
@@samwalko the last of the street running has been done away with, since south shore started the new double track project, and I'm not sure where amtrak territory start's in Michigan city but if its west of town then the trains wouldn't even enter the former street running section since they would be on their own main. although one thing I am curious about is how would the connection from union station to the electric lines/south shore be made
@@martinfaland7819 The Amtrak/SSL diamond is in the middle of the two parts that were street running where it switched from 10th street to 11th street. That said, my understanding was that the tracks would still be street-running but just with a second track; however, upon further review, this at most applies to 11th street. The 10th street street running is to be moved entirely to the side of the road, and that's the only part Amtrak would need to use.
The same fight about electrification has been going on in the UK for DECADES. The fact is that government agencies find it super hard to finance capital expenditure for electrification (with a repayment time of 60 years or longer) versus the "quick fix" finance deal you can get for some modification to the trains. It's incredibly frustrating.
Which is why it's very weird that HS2 is being heavily criticized. People need experience with electrification. Once you have enough people that can work on it, plus the funding and equipment needed, the task would be much faster. Just like India electrifying at the rate of 6,000 km a year.
It's completely bonkers if you know anything about capital markets and other stuff. Like banks LOVE to lent money to government and such agency would always pay it back and if you take out loan for 50+ yrs, not only are the payment so small you can fit them in the consequent increased margins but also gets incredibly small interest rate. It's no brainer for a government to take out loans on hugely beneficial infra project like High Speed Rail, electrifications, subways or my favourite Nuclear Power Plants. IDK who or why someone came up with "the government need ROI within shorter time than large corpos" but it must have been to intentionally cause harm.
@@hhvhhvcz it's got quite a lot to do with populism in politics since the early 00s - short term projects win votes because the average voter doesn't care about anything after the next 10 years
At least we have the admittedly very weak excuse that some of the tunnels are too narrow for catenaries. Still compared to say the money put into the bloody silvertown tunnel it is chump change. I'd say electrify instead of HS2 phase 2 but I zero faith that the government would actually invest the money into rail.
I'm an airline pilot based out of Chicago, one of the routes I fly is Chicago-O'hare to South Bend airport. It's a 20 minute flight but it usually takes almost 2 hours from boarding to deplaning after you add up boarding time and taxi time to get from the runways to the terminal at O'hare. Many times the flight is delayed due to weather at O'hare or mechanical issues with the aging CRJ-200s that we use to run the route. The South Shore Line pulls directly into the South Bend airport terminal, but to get from the South Shore Line stop at the SBN airport to O'hare takes THREE AND HALF HOURS and there are only seven trains a day. Even driving can take up to three hours during rush hour. So this totally absurd and pointless flight will continue to exist for the foreseeable future because we can't get our trains to go 90 miles in less than 2 hours. Don't get me started on the Milwaukee-O'hare route, which already has a bus service that takes less time than the flight.
That's insane! I just looked on the map and a route like Chicago - Gary - South Bend - Fort Wayne - Toledo - Detroit looks like a prime example for an _conventional_ (read: relativly cheap) high speed (160km/h / 100mph) connection (if you don't want a real highspeed). It would be as fast as the direct car route between those cities (if not faster), just barely the range where a train ride does not feel too long and connecting 2 huge cities with several midsize ones (and small ones with local trains). And it would be faster than your flight to reach South Bend.
@@steemlenn8797 Part of the problem will always be: What do you do when you get to Fort Wayne, Toledo, etc. to get to your final destination? Many final destinations are now in the suburbs. Local public transit no longer exists or is not practical or safe to use as it was in the 1920s.
I've always thought the Air Wisconsin CRJ2 routes out of ORD are a sad reminder of the lack of train travel in the region. One hundred years ago, you could probably ride Milwaukee Road's Hiawatha train and get there a half hour faster than any alternative today
I also think it will always exist for the convenience of connecting passengers. If I'm going to London, I might as well just get on a plane in South Bend than drive or take the train all the way to the city, and then find my way to the airport. That's really who the flight is intended for, not people solely flying between South Bend and Chicago.
Currently to take the SSL from Chicago to South Bend its about two hours and twenty five minutes. If you're starting in downtown Chicago, the SSL is going to be faster than going out to O'Hare. The Southshore Double Track project should help solve the timing. Currently it takes about an hour and forty minutes to get from Chicago to Michigan City. Once the double track project is complete it'll be down to sixty seven minutes. Total time from Millennium Park to South Bend would be around an hour and forty fiveish minutes. They're also going to be running more trainsets more frequently. If you want to go from O'Hare you have to add in about an hour for the blue line. The SSL stop at SBN was also only supposed to be temporary but became permanent. The route into South Bend follows a bunch of weird sidings and turns that slow the train down. The original plan called for building a station into downtown South Bend. There's been take in the last few years of bring that plan to life, however, costs are pretty high. Between the double track and west lake corridor projects, unless South Bend funds the entire project, its probably not going to happen anytime soon. However, if it does happen, and your final destination is South Bend itself, SSL may actually become the more attractive option.
There's one way to make them profitable while still keeping the services public: real estate. That is how Japan did it: buy all the land around the main railway stations, then densify the hell out of them all at once, then rent them to all kinds of businesses and institutions like residences, offices, schools, and shopping centers. This makes sure that there will always be foot traffic in and out of the stations.
@@ianhomerpura8937 that’s how most of the original rail lines in the US were built as well. We seemed to have forgotten how to do that, except for Brightline now.
@@smallflame85 they are. But Japan has been doing these massive transit oriented developments even before the JNR was privatized and broken up in 1987. So far it has been very effective in keeping the railways out of the red, especially in JR East and JR Central.
While my parents are from NJ, I was born in Westchester. They specifically chose Westchester because of the convenience of the Metro North's Hudson Line to NYC where my father worked as an attorney. Heck, I was almost named Hudson because we lived by the river. We lived up a hill and only around a ten-minute walk down to the Metro North station in a very walkable area. The Hudson Line/southern Empire Corridor line along the Hudson is one of the most beautiful routes in the nation simply because of the views at 0:00. ESPECIALLY during Fall. Seeing those Palisades makes me grateful of all the nature that the US has to offer. The US is BLESSED to have such wonders, and it saddens me when such nature is threatened. It is why we must protect it.
I miss the efficiency of MTA, for all its flaws. I grew up in queens so I'm more familiar with the L and M but the Metro North and LIRR should be the standard for commuter rail around the country.
I was talking to a guy that worked on that line when they were upgrading it. He said the line is ready for electrification. They future proofed the line. Eventually they want to use the New Haven to Hartford portion for HSR to Boston.
@@ClockworksOfGL Too many NIMBYS. The only way to fix the section between New Haven and Providence is to pull the curves out. Too much old money and boomers.
A new direct, electrified HSR route between Hartford (actually, Manchester) and Worcester (actually, Auburn) via Sturbridge, paralleling I-87 and the Mass Pike, would make the inland route significantly shorter and faster than the Shoreline route, and add the capacity people think is necessary. This highway corridor is much more feasible than the New Haven-Providence routing which was being promoted a few years ago, and would add direct service to NYC for Worcester, the second largest city in New England.
I've lived in Madison, Wi my whole life and it's so infuriating to know that despite being a growing city of about 300,000 (and about 700,000 in metro area) and once having two railroad stations, now the closest Amtrak station is 28 miles outside the city in Columbus. It's so dissapointing to see all the stations in Madison and surrounding cities just sitting there. There was a plan in 2011 to have a high speed rail system connect from Chicago to Minneapolis that would finally reconnect the city, but our then governor (Scott Walker) refused the $810 million provided to fund it's construction because "It wouldn't be profitable". He then decided to spend $1.7 billion on reconstructing the Zoo Interchange in Milwaukee that solved little to nothing in traffic...
Have you ever looked into going to Chicago by first taking the Badger Bus over to Milwaukee and then taking the Hiawatha train down to Union Station? Turns out that it's not feasible. Yes, the Badger Bus does go to the Milwaukee Intermodal station...but the Badger Bus arrives there about 5 minutes after the train leaves, so there's an 1.5 hour layover. So it's way faster, cheaper, and more convenient to just take the bus from Madison to O'hare.
@@radishpineapple74 As much as I’ve liked Badger Bus over the years, they supported killing the train extension to Madison, and I’m sure it’s not an accident that they don’t connect.
Hearing the president of Amtrak talk about "making it profitable" makes me downright angry. How can someone running a public service be that out of touch. Absolutely ridiculous. It's people like that who are to blame for the US not having quality, affordable, and electric High Speed Rail.
Amtrak was mandated to be profitable by Congress when it was created. It is out of touch, but I can't solely blame one person who has to balance the competing pressures of both the service-demanding public AND congress which provides necessary operating funding.
Electrifying the Wolverine Corridor and using the SSL right-of-way makes a ton of sense. Maybe even stopping at Gary, too. And keep in mind that a good chunk of the line in Indiana is slated to be double-tracked. Only problems I could see would be having to deal with CN (like you said) and track speed, especially between Miller and Kensington.
I've had this idea of turning the South Shore into a intercity corridor for a while, although my idea includes getting the eastern Amtrak trains on at South Bend. The way I came up with to avoid that section is to use an old Pere Marquette right of way that comes close to the South Shore near Miller then runs on the south side of Gary on an elevated ROW, then the line comes to the east end of the Indiana Harbor Belt's yard in Hammond, from where you can pick up the former Michigan Central line for a straight shot through to Kensington. The PM part is double tracked but needs new bridges, the MC line needs new tracks next to the IHB, and the bridge over the Little Calumet River is still there but it is signal track.
Using the South Shore to Michigan may be a temporary solution. The VP of Amtrak State-Supported Services has mentioned that the CREATE Grand Crossing Project is not dead, but its mission would change. If the proposed St. Charles Air Line Connector gets built (they're waiting on word of the MEGA grant now) Michigan/eastbound trains could one day travel from Union Station onto CN's former IC mainline to Grand Crossing, where trains would transfer onto Amtrak-owned passenger-only tracks that would be built on the abandoned New York Central right-of-way out of Chicago, connecting to Porter and the line into Michigan. Where the South Shore Line would play a more critical role long-term is for a return of the Hoosier State corridor train. Once South Shore's West Lake Extension is complete, in 2025 or so, Amtrak wants to negotiate with INDOT on the possibility of bringing the Chicago-Indianapolis train back, likely with terms similar to those currently being offered to Ohio on the 3C+D corridor - all capital costs and nearly all operating subsidies covered for the first five years, provided the state picks up the tab on operating costs afterward. The same Amtrak VP suggested that a new Hoosier State could serve as a showcase for what is possible on state-supported corridors, and mentioned an extensive rebuild of trackage between Dyer and Indianapolis, likely up to 110MPH standards. Why not electrification as well?
The great thing about Virginia is that not only did it indeed buy the CSX ROW between DC and Richmond, but it also bought the CSX S-Line in tandem with North Carolina. This means we could build an entirely new passenger-rail corridor from Raleigh to DC and up the rest of the NEC.
I don’t quite understand the WAS to Richmond purchase, as it’s phrased “much of.” Linear or lateral? Who will dispatch it? In any case, more parallel track is going in, and the megabux Long Bridge over the Potomac is almost contracted, with lots of fed dollars I think. The other megabux project, to change everything about pax rail from RVR to PTB, is sleeping quietly, though the plans have been approved for a few years. Likewise S Line HSR is sleeping, aside from survey contracts.
@@kitchin2 - last I read - Dispatch - Amtrak from DC to Alexandria and then CSX even though Virginia Passenger Rail Authority owns (or will own) the right of way. I really don't understand that - perhaps someone else has better information.
Yes pls do a video on the entire empire corridor, upstate has some great cities with good bones and decent public transit and I feel like strong train lines would be a huge boost to an area that’s a lot better than ppl give credit
I second this wholeheartedly. The corridor between NYC, Upstate and Toronto is so ripe with good transit potential that it kills me that no one is talking about it. I’m from Syracuse and the fact that we don’t have NEC style routes up here like we used to sucks
If we're talking about true upstate (Albany -> North) meh. There are bones. Huge D&H presence at one time. But populations in the north country don't head very far south and those in NYC don't usually go past Lake George. Sacandoga is loading up on NYCers as well and it's only drivable today. The tracks are under water. Toga could be a good stop during track season. However most of the socialites live there for the summer. They travel twice: Once in June and once in September. The trip from NYC is waaaay to long just for the day and the tix too expensive. Lake George is the next possible tourist stop but there's no place for a station. The D&H is now RT9 with the CSX single track all the way over in Fort Edward. Again those people travel twice per year. For winter sports its far faster to drive then take a train. Going to Whiteface? It's 2.2 hours or so from Toga via car at 65 to 70 MPH. The trains can't break 55 in many places here. 1. Always under construction south of Albany. 2. CSX 3. North of Albany is many more turns. Albany has tried to get high speed rail up to at least Albany for years and can't accomplish even that. It's simply too expensive. If there was a more rail traffic just to Saratoga to start that'd be a huge win imo for a reasonable price of Metro North not $89. I'd go to far more Mets and Islanders games.
What we here: A man speaking straight facts what the US government hears: An actual good use of taxes What congress here's: A complete waste of their money
"I don't need to worry about if my massive spending makes any sense, just increase taxes" BTW, that's how you get mass famines. You guys get in charge of everything and people start starving to death. You decide you need fancy new rail line, and take the steel away from building tractors.
@@TheOwenMajor That’s not at all what he said. Making sense and being profitable are 2 very different requirements. Sewers aren’t profitable. Neither are courts, or streets, or libraries, or schools (at least k-12). Whether those things are worth building is judged based off of the net benefit to society, both in terms of efficiency (better infrastructure means more business and more efficient business) or in terms of standard of living (people not constantly dying of cholera) rather than whether that specific project will pay for itself. After all, if something costs 20 million, and causes a rise in gdp of 60 million, is it really a bad investment for the state? Also, I know you’re talking about the Soviet and Chinese famines, but I should point out that the main reasons for those famines were not accidents with the budget, but that the states were deliberately exporting food produced in order to have the capital to industrialize faster. This decision was incredibly cruel and stupid (and in the case of the Holodomor genocidal) but they weren’t cases of state spending run amok, and they weren’t unique to communism (see British policy having landlords in Ireland produce beef and continue exporting it during the potato famine to England to keep food cheap for factory workers, or similar policy in India to keep cotton cheap and causing multiple famines and 10’s of millions of deaths).
Honorable mention for the Pacific Surfliner made my day. Especially since the segment between LA and Anaheim will need to be electrified for the CAHSR. My big wishlist would be for LOSSAN to electrify the entirety of the Pacific Surfliner corridor from San Luis Obispo to San Diego as well as all of the Metrolink lines.
I believe SCRRA/Metrolink only owns the tracks as far as Moorpark, and UP owns them beyond that. LA to SD is the busiest US passenger rail corridor outside the NE, and it makes so much sense to electrify. One of the biggest hurdles though would be Redondo Junction to Fullerton Junction, since that's owned by BNSF and is a busy freight corridor. Fullerton Junction to the Orange/SD County line is owned by SCRRA, and from there to San Diego is owned by NCTD. One thing CAHSR is proposing is building a new intermodal facility in Colton, since based on their research there's a number of intermodal trains traveling from the Midwest that go to Hobart Yard in LA, only for their containers to then be trucked back out to their destination in the Inland Empire. So by building a new facility in Colton, those trains would terminate there and open up those train slots for HSR. The other obvious biggest hurdle is the fact the tracks along the coast are prone to being impacted by surf and erosion, as is happening right now with the tracks in San Clemente closed to passenger traffic (I believe freight is still moving through there at reduced speeds) likely through December. The tracks along the Del Mar cliffs are also at serious risk, though I have been seeing plans move forward on a tunnel underneath Del Mar to move the tracks away from the cliffs. So tracks would need to be moved away from the surf before electrification could happen, or you do it in phases: LA to Anaheim, Anaheim to Laguna Niguel, SD to Oceanside (after rerouting Del Mar and possibly a Miramar Hill bypass tunnel), then Laguna Niguel to Oceanside. One final thing, and I've been wondering if maybe this is why HSR/electrification is ending in Anaheim, is that the Surf Line has autoracks going between San Diego/Baja CA and the Midwest. Just east of Anaheim is a junction that connects the Surf Line with the BNSF mainline, with freight trains going between SD and San Bernardino/West Colton. Though given there isn't a clearance issue with electrification and double stacks, and autoracks are about the same height, then that shouldn't be an issue. If the Surf Line were electrified all the way to SD, I've thought that hypothetically HSR could continue on it past Anaheim to SD via Oceanside, until their route through Riverside and Murrieta is completed.
I just wish Amtrak had more vertical lines. There is no reason that going from Detroit to Buffalo requires you to go all the way back to Chicago to go east. Literally one short line would save hours on a trip.
Hear hear! I'm down here in Georgia, and to get from Atlanta (middle-north Georgia) to Savannah (southeast Georgia), you need to ride all the way north to D.C., then back down south. It takes less than 5 hours to drive, but almost 30 hours to ride a train. It's absurd.
Detroit to Toledo could very feasibly be a regional rail line, especially given that the existing ROW is already quad tracked and passes through numerous dense, moderately walkable suburbs of both cities and the city of Monroe as well. Unfortunately, I dont see the car cult leaving Michigan's politics for a long time, and our attempts at commuter rail in the mid 2010s failed despite being an even more obvious and easy project
@@OldsVistaCruiser I have electrification between all major cities and some minor ones, around 60% of lines. Most was done in the last 30 years after capitalism was invented.
@@malakimphoros2164 - Which country? We have a very strong ultra conservative faction in the States, which opposes electric vehicles because they claim that the electric grid is insufficient, yet they oppose modernizing the grid!
@@OldsVistaCruiser Poland, we have many russian agents in the gouvernement who don't want fossil fuels to go, even if it's an unsustainable money drain that ultimately benefits our greatest enemy. But there are plenty trains, sometimes late but generally they are fine.
A small problem that wasn’t really touched on with the Amtrak Michigan line is that MDOT and Amtrak don’t own the ROW for the last four stops, including Detroit. To get wires into Detroit and out to the terminus at Pontiac, they’d still have to deal with CN
In my opinion it shouldn’t be hard to nationalize rail owned by Canadian Northern because they are a foreign railroad. They really have no excuse to be owning any track in the US.
@@gumbyshrimp2606 Why do Canadian public agencies buy rail cars and locos built in Sacramento? Why are FerroMex locos all over central US? Why does Grupo Mexico own the FEC in Florida? Profit, finite capital. Politics in the Buy America law, maybe shenanigans in Florida. Brightline, owned by SoftBank, a Japanese company, is certainly seeing capital constraints.
Amtrak’s leaders going from Anderson to Gardner is like Paper Mario Sticker Star to Color Splash One is slightly less worse then the other, SLIGHTLY Edit: Bill Flynn is Origami King, not terrible, but not all that great either
Interesting. I'd prioritize the NYC to Schenectady line only because Albany being the state capital would benefit from faster service to and from NYC. Next would be the Springfield line. The Detroit - Chicago line, although logical, would require more coordination. Along with electrification, these routes should also eliminate all highway grade crossings. As long as you are going to spend the money, do it right. I live near Richmond, VA, and take the Northeast corridor trains between home and NYC. There is a huge difference in service between Richmond and DC versus DC to NYC. Hopefully, this route would also be considered. It would still mean deselization between Richmond and Norfolk/Hampton Roads.
Personally I'd do NY and CT in the opposite order because CT has a lot of local service still using diesel, and you don't need to deal with multiple agencies. Most of the NY local service is already electric anyway. But yeah the cost/benefit of those lines is clearly way better than the Michigan corridor which doesn't have any regional rail service and isn't that frequent.
NYC to SCH sounds great however its more likely to stop in ALB. There's not enough daily traffic in SCH. Albany has been trying to upgrade NYC to ALB for years as well as bring in HSR. It's not going to happen. It's far too expensive which is why it fails in the budget every year. It'd be nice but there's no way.
I grew up in South Bend and used the Wolverine quite a bit in grad school, so it makes me quite happy to see the Wolverine and South Shore mentioned. MDOT has been painfully slow at upgrading the Kalamazoo-Dearborn portion to 110 mph, but at least KZoo-Battle Creek is up to 110 now. Just wish they would also double track the whole thing.
@@dknowles60 Maybe it doesn't have many trains because it can't expand service with the current setup and shortages...In 2019, the Wolverine alone had over 500,000 riders, making it the 3rd most popular Amtrak route in the Midwest (behind Hiawatha and Lincoln Service). The Blue Water also uses those tracks up to Battle Creek, which saw almost 200K riders in 2019. They are definitely popular services despite only having 4 round trips total (3 Wolverine, 1 Blu Water).
Even with our current grid (not lots of renewable generation) switching to electric power cuts the emissions of a car approximately in half. I can’t think of any reason to assume that trains wouldn’t be roughly similar. Add onto that the lower operational costs and we’re basically saying that we can save money at the same time that we fight climate change?!? Sign. Me. Up!
@@LiamMcBride I actually wasn’t even speaking to the manufacturing emissions. Just the emissions of transporting every mile. You’re absolutely right though!
*WHOA!!!* I am shocked the Hiawatha Service is not among the three routes or AT LEAST in the honorable mentions. IIRC it is the busiest route in the midwest. I get that a lot of the track belongs to freight lines, but so do those of some of the honorable mentions...
The Wolverine line runs from Pontiac Michigan to Chicago.From Pontiac to Dearborn CN then MDOT owned tracks from Dearborn to Kalamazoo,then Amtrak owned Kalamazoo to Porter Indiana.Amtrak has full right of way from Dearborn to Porter Indiana and large sections of 110mph.Almost 90% of the trip is free of freight .
A couple of problems with the Michigan Service - first, Amtrak and the State of Michigan own the line from Porter, IN to Dearborn, MI - the corridor runs from Chicago Union Station to Pontiac, MI. Also, the tracks through Battle Creek are owned by the Canadian National. The South Shore route into Chicago is a horrible route compared to the NS - it's longer, and it has probably close to 75 road crossings at grade, compared to only a handful on the NS route - and the NS route is much more direct. Electrification is an excellent idea, but the cost to electrify tracks into Chicago Union Station would be cost prohibitive for one route. The better option would be for dua l mode equipment - electrify Porter to Dearborn and use dual mode equipment...
I live on the Springfield-Hartford-New Haven line, it would be great to have that electrified especially since it cuts straight through my town. It would ALSO stop the annoying business of having to have an engine swap at a certain point.
The Surfliner tracks are going to be moved inland (they are dangerously close to the shore in San Clemente and train service is actually suspended between Oceanside and Irvine right now because of erosion), so that'd be a good time to do it. PS: I'm not sure *WHERE* the tracks can get moved inland, especially north of Oceanside since the USMC base Camp Pendleton effectively takes up everything between Oceanside and Orange County If the tracks DO get electrified, then maybe Metrolink and the Coaster (commuter rail lines) could get on the bandwagon
The plan right now is to tunnel inland along the Del Mar Bluffs...if they're smart enough, they can actually shore up the coast at San Clemente to not even have to worry about any erosion...just look at what Network Rail did at Dawlish for an idea.
@@andyinsdca Yes they can, the tracks in Dawlish are right next to the water as well...and in that case it's the violent Atlantic storms they have to deal with...it wasn't even that hard of an engineering feat either. Do you know what they're doing to stabilize it...installing steel supports to either side of the sliding earth and then putting in horizontal braces to hold it in place.
Regardless of whether electrification for the Wolverine happens one day, going through Indiana via the SSL tracks will make things sooo much better. We’re going 110 mph through the west side of the state just to crawl through Michigan City-Gary at at maybe 10 mph.
That has always been the bottleneck, I can’t believe there’s a solution that seems relatively simple, yet hasn’t been touched for the past couple decades.
What's especially funny to me is that they use the South Shore as a detour route. One of my favorite video I've found here is an Amtrak train going over the big blue bridge in Hegewisch, Chicago.
MDOT blew the budget on the I-94 modernization project, $4 billion to add a 4th lane in each direction in Detroit on the eastside to Conner. Easily could have funded electrification on the Wolverine for the entire cross state route, but no. More highways🙄.
@@ednorton47 Detroit could merit it’s own video, but it isn’t surprising a city so oriented around the automobile is having massive issues. Car reliance begets poverty which increases crime. Look at the most violent cities in America like Detroit, New Orleans, and St. Louis. All have really poor public transport.
@@ednorton47 Detroit a tuff city especially the eastside, but ain’t as bad as they say. Take Gratiot instead of the freeway you be fine, ain’t nothing happening to you.
They should extend it even further down to Raleigh and Charlotte. Both cities are growing at a rapid pace, given that both are becoming financial and tech centers.
@@ianhomerpura8937 I do think that's in the current plans. We have to hope the current governor doesn't sabotage them, though, as Republicans are often anti-train for some reason.
Virginia plays nice with CSX and NS so I doubt electrification there. Prob Petersburg to Raleigh S-line HSR would happen first. Examples of how VA plays: very big $ to CSX and NS for cap improvements over the last two decades. 2. Moving NPN station nine miles up line away from CSX port. 3. Buying wanky Buckingham Branch (CSX coal, so uncertain long term future). 4. Buying non-mainline from RNK to VT. The deals are cautious on frequency increases. Results have been good by all measures: ridership, operating margins, low ticket prices. But not as bold as to electrify WAS to Richmond, in my opinion. Bonus tip: PTB to NFK is the best rail in the state. Somebody at N&W knew how to lay track, and NS maintains it.
Part of the problem is the costs have outstripped inflation. So if we were to build using the estimated per mile cost of 1999 with inflation factored in (4 mil), this would be a lot easier of a decision. The problem is that for some reason the per mile costs have increased dramatically. I remember reading that one of the new haven branch lines on metro north(I think waterberry) had two estimates done for electric, one done in the mid 2000’s had it at about 8 million per mile, while one done a few years later had it at 15 million a mile. If we are to do these projects we need to figure out why this stuff has dramatically increased in costs so much. Trains already have a hard enough time getting funding, so we need to be able to maximize the little bit we do get because if we keep letting costs ballon nothing will get built.
Another good electrification project would be the Capitol Corridor from Sacramento to Oakland and San Jose, especially if there ends up being a new tunnel for standard gauge trains under SF bay.
Actually their is some that's is talking about Electrification for Capitol Corridor and also upgrade 125 or 150 mph, though it's 2050 plan, but thats got be sign also.
some good news, the springfield corridor (at least in ct) is under study to be electrified! i'm glad i live in ct when it comes to trains, stuff seems really promising
Is that true? I had last heard that Connecticut DOT was actually looking into purchasing god awful duel-mode diesel locos that wouldn’t be implemented until like 2030 (ironically, the duel mode locos would cost MORE than actual overhead line electrification)
@@toadscoper4575 yeah, that was true but a lot of investment has been made in the last few months only honestly, and the state rail plan draft came out and has a LOT to do with passenger rail and green solutions. it won't be perfect, but it's def a step in the right direction
I'd love a longer video on the wolverine line, why we need service to Toledo, the Amtrak plans for service to Windsor, and Michigan Central (which in theory Ford was going to keep the rail for future trains, but it's unclear if they've kept that promise).
Please just give us a train from Cincinnati -> Cbus -> Cleveland All the cities are super walkable but none of the nice little walking pockets are connected with transit
Imagine an HSR line between the three C's. Live in Cleveland and work in Cincinnati, with an hour and a half commute. Probably a pipe dream but still, i can dream
@@ohioman4646 Too bad it got killed, but I do agree that we should invest in better service, and not infrequent amtrak trains that take twice as long as it would be to drive and cost a ton of money
Sounds like a good plan but what are the odds they won't do it and cite Caltrain's electrification project as the reason why? The Caltrain upgrade has been messy but not necessarily because of the electrification itself; it's largely been the track upgrades to make it CAHSR-ready and to ensure that the at-grade crossings can work under wire.
The Michigan Line is having issues with just staffing our trains to begin with, the management over here is a mess. Electrification would be nice, though.
@@kitchin2 I think so, yeah. It's cleared to go 110Mi/h from east of Porter, IN to Dearborn, MI, with the exception of a small part of Battle Creek, MI, and east of Dearborn. Something like that.
@@SergeantTeabag Currently, the track is only rated for 110MPH from Porter, IN, to Albion, MI. They've been working on upgrading the remaining sections, but what they do upgrade won't improve service by much since the right-of-way east of Battle Creek is less straight than the western section.
"The grid can be powered by any source and can be switched to clean energy power later or whenever is necessary." THIS. This is why railways in some countries today are mostly immune to the ongoing oil and gas price surges. Since their systems are mostly electrified, they can choose whatever energy options are there at the table - coal, oil, gas, solar, wind, tidal, geothermal, nuclear, or all at once. Win win solution for everyone.
Im waiting for the boomers to be like “But Alan, electrification is communism!!!” Here in Australia, 95% of our suburban rail systems are juiced up. My home city of Perth has line from north to south through the CBD (under it actually) at 95mph and 5 minute frequencies in peak. Indian Railways also runs wild double stacks with new electric juice jacks.
@Ian Homer Pura yet the country has no indoor plumbing, and the infrastructure is shit and the government is run by Nazis so you're praising a country that is basically Nazi Germany in modern day.
Australia is interesting cause its like halfway between the US and Europe in terms of transit systems. In the big cities where most of the people live (you'll never see Oz the same way again once you realise it's basically a bunch of city-states) they all have extensive suburban rail systems and a few of them have light rail systems as well (I believe Adelaide is the only major city left whose suburban rail network isn't fully electrified). And NSW and Vic have good regional rail networks as well. And then you have long-distance trains which are in a very sorry state in Australia these days. First of all, the Indian Pacific and the Ghan have gone from proper rail services to overpriced tourism packages for old rich fuckers because of privatization (same reason the Overland is now hanging on by a thread). The only sorta decent long-distance trains are NSW's XPTs and Queensland's Tilt Train. A major factor in this is absolutely the fact that the rail operators have been too conservative to electrify anything outside of a major urban area - even without a dedicated high-speed rail corridor (which would be very nice either way) electrifying the existing Sydney-Melbourne corridor would do wonders. In this respect Queensland Rail has been the only operator with any balls since they managed to electrify a decent portion of the main line in Queensland at 25kv AC, as well as a lot of the coal systems in the interior of the state. Which brings me to the maddening state of the Inland Rail project. It's still a very good idea but in my eyes if you're building a new railway in the 2020's electrification is a must. And, of course, they've defected this criticism by saying "but what about mUh doUblE sTacKs?!!" Newsflash, you can absolutely do double stack freight trains with electric traction. And thus, we have the virgin Australian Inland Rail whining that they can't have both double stacks and electrification, vs the Chad Indian Railways with their absolute units of electric double-stacked freight trains.
This 'boomer' is concerned about the already strained electrical grid and increasingly more strained state of taxpayer funds that have been flying out of the country at a Bullet Train speed since the current Administration took office. What good are electric cars and trains everywhere if you can't power them most days for fear of crashing the grid? Fix that first! (Like should have been done when they first started noticing the problem back when I was a spring chicken.)
@@veganconservative1109 why not build more nuclear power plants similar to the one built at Vogtle in GA? That's what France did, thye just spam built more nuclear power plants. Plus, demand electric companies to update the grid, and build more towers. Most of them were built in the 1930s and all need to be replaced. just look what happened in California, which had massive wildfires all because PG&E never bothered to upgrade their electric grid infrastructure.
I grew up living 5 minutes from the South Shore Line, I find it interesting that Amtrak wants to use the track. Since the South Shore is double tracking from Chicago to Michigan city.
A branch line here in Germany was recently electrified, they use EMUs with batteries onboard so only sections of the line had to be fitted with an overhead catenary, the rest of the route is run on battery power that is recharged in those wire-stretches (like larger stations along the line)
The Norwalk to Danbury (Connecticut) commuter line was electrified in the old New Haven Railroad days. For reasons unknown, the catenaries were since removed.
It's pretty convenient when it comes to Metra, at least in my opinion. I've only driven into the city from the suburbs once, and taking the train has been the faster option for me. I don't mind walking around, and the buses in the city are pretty inexpensive to use. I live in the suburbs, though, so I don't know what it's like to drive around there.
Assuming it was electrified and upgraded to at least higher speeds, I would love being able to take the Wolverine to Detroit to see the White Sox play the Tigers then return to Chicago right after the game
There is absolutely no reason Albany to NYC should not be electrified. Probably one of the busiest corridors in the country and could switch the metro north trains over to overhead as well. Maybe a joint Amtrak-MTA project could be completed to get this done. This route also needs alot of upgrades which could increase speed across the route as well. Also would avoid the switchover most trains have going into Penn. Would help if every platform at penn had both third rail and overhead. This would also be a perfect corridor for HSR, probably should be the first corridor considered by Amtrak when updating imo.
@@MatthewMello to my understanding they at least own portions of the line north of Poughkeepsie. Whatever they don’t own they are responsible for all of the maintenance. I live on the west side of the river and most of csx freight is brought down my side as opposed to the east side (2 freight on the east and upwards of 20 freight train on the west) It should still be doable for them to upgrade as-long as Amtrak foots the bill.
@@John-jg4wp All traffic in and out of Oak Point yard goes on the 701/704 to and from Selkirk. That is the only way there unless you come from CT, for example, the Springfield Line. But that is a pain in the ass move as the swtiches in Springfield go the wrong way. That is why CSO backs in and out of West Springfield Yard. Anyways, I am way off point.
Another is the Lackawanna Cut-Off. I mean think about it, it's been pure irony that Scranton, the *ELECTRIC* city...doesn't have trains that are electrified. Let alone not having any train service since the early 50s! Exactly, public services are meant to serve the public. That is why we aim to continue upgrading our Pyongyang Metro, trolleybuses, and railway network to bring them to their potential. Not to mention, I am the only leader in the world who regularly uses a train to get around. Something that was passed down from my grandpa and father
Train service to Scranton ended in 1963, I used it regularly. The Post Office pulled the plug on the mail cars (nearly half the train) and without that revenue the near broke EL couldn't afford to run the nice train. There is a hotel and restaurant in the old Lackawanna station in Scranton and a nice bar in the old trainshed. Scranton does have steamtown and also a trolley line.
Indeed, every train I saw in DPRK was electric... there were loads of Soviet and Chinese diesel engines electrified in the 1990s for environmental reasons, e.g. the Kanghaenggun class. Glory to the Shining Star of the 21st century!
Once in the 90s I accidentally ended up riding the Springfield Corridor because I was riding in the wrong car when a northbound train toward Boston split at New Haven. I remember the horrible part of getting home being the subsequent stretch from Springfield to Boston.
I feel like more needs to said about Amtrak’s god awful modernization plan… the decision to purchase a fleet of ALC-42 locomotives is absolutely mind boggling and will ultimately hurt passenger service in the long run. The rest of the world has moved to both electric and diesel multiple units for passenger service… multiple units are so much more efficient and economical to operate. Amtrak’s decision to purchase more big ass diesel locomotives proves that Amtrak management is completely ignorant (or oblivious) of railroad standards in the rest of the world.
I live on the Virginia Services Corridor. Right now I think the biggest thing is that they are trying to triple track down the line a ways. rail traffic can get a bit congested at times.
Thanks for this great video. Having said that, does Amtrak have any actual electrification projects at the time? N.B.: it was exciting to hear you mention the Wolverine corridor. As a foriegn visitor (European), I chose the train to travel from Chicago to Detroit 2 years ago. Most people at the convention I was attending in Chicago reacted me like "Why don't you fly?" but I simly had no energy to waste to explain in length the benfits of railing instead of flying, especially on a distance of 400-500 km. They regarded me as a bit of a lunatic, a maverick at best (well, after all, those crazy Europeans are in the habit of traveling by train, so why not) 😆I honestly hope for the best for American rail. You used to be a great railroad nation, you can make it again!
As a rare counterexample to many of the long series of dumpster fires involving the freight rail carriers that you've discussed in your videos already, out here in NorCal, the Caltrain / JPBX is successfully working on electrifying one of the most important Union Pacific ROWs from San Jose to San Francisco. It will bring a major improvement to the timetable and energy efficiency as well as ability to eventually go in tunnels and connect to other transit services in SF, and we will have almost the entire metropolis ringed with good electric mass transit to replicate the path of every major freeway and bridge. Hopefully it's just one step in a process of bringing transit sanity from the northeast to the rest of the country.
Just one point of clarification. Amtrak does not own the tracks from Poughkeepsie to Schenectady. They are still owned by CSX, but Amtrak has been leasing the section since 2012. The section is actually known as the Hudson Subdivision. By the terms of the lease, Amtrak is responsible for maintenance and capital responsibilities. But I'm not sure if that would complicate the electrification of the track.
It definitely should. It was a city built on streetcars. It should become a transit oriented city again. This would be very important also given how the 2028 Olympics would be a pain in the ass if the city remains fully carcentric by then.
3:45 "This corridor serves... The Adirondack." A train that hasn't made its way north towards Plattsburgh and Montréal since the start of the pandemic. We've had NO service going to places like Ticonderoga or Westport for a good 2 years. And Amtrak has been silent on any details on when the Adirondack will make its way through... The Adirondacks. 🙁
The European models of the Cities Sprinters electric locos Amtrak uses can handle both AC and 1.5 kV DC, I wouldn’t be surprised if they can be refitted to handle running on the South Shore.
Apart from Talgo’s offerings, Siemens has the Sprinter family, Bombardier (Now Alstom) had the TRAXX, and Alstom also has the Prima, all of which also have internally-powered (currently diesel) variants as well.
@@JohnGeorgeBauerBuis you also seem to have some outdated information there, the siemens eurosprinter family hasn't been a thing anymore. it was replaced in 2010 (12 years ago!) by the vectron family in AC, DC, MS, DE and DM variants.
@@eftalanquest I got the impression that they were still popularly being called Sprinters even after the redesign, at least in part due to Amtrak’s model being officially called the ‘Amtrak Cities Sprinter’, although it is based on the updated platform.
Sweden has railway lines that only see three daily passenger trains in each direction but still are electrified. That’s as far as you can get from how it is in the US.
@@robk7266 It was never not electrified because SEPTA was running electric trains on it all along (at least as far as Thorndale), but Amtrak ran (mostly? exclusively?) diesels west of Philly from the late '80s until they finished upgrading the grid in 2006.
Some issues electrifying the Wolverine route is Amtrak/MiDOT share equipment with other Amtrak Midwest routes out of Chicogo and the other Michigan Amtrak routes. It would be more money but maybe more effective for those states to work on electrification together and electrify routes like all 3 Amtrak Michigan routes, Chicago to St Louis, and Chicago to Milwaukee. It would be great to eventually see Chicago and Detroit connected to a Windsor-Toronto-Montreal NEC-style, high speed, electric corridor.
chicago to peroia eventually though to st louis would be a really good electric cordor. also would recommend the hawathin route as that already as a shit ton of demand. and honestly if we fully electrified the route taking advantage of the south shore line for the empire builder, we could have 4 to 8 trains a day between new york and chicago. thats alot of air traffic removed. and alot of local service to the comunitys along the route.
One point you made is that public transit doesn't have to be profitable, which is debatable at best, one thing I think you should've mentioned is that the Northeast Corridor IS profitable for Amtrak, being their only profitable route thus far, so even if public transit DID need to make a profit, Amtrak's only profitable line IS electrified, which is why the CEO from Delta INCREASED services on the Northeast Corridor, and ordered new electric trainsets from Alstom, proving that electrifying passenger services can make them more profitable. And, while I think these are feasible, I don't think they're gonna be possible. HOWEVER, the reasons for this have NOTHING to do with the railway technology itself. With current technologies, the only sections of railways that cannot be electrified with overhead lines are container ports and rolling stock maintenance facilities, since cranes are needed for operation. The reason electrification is impossible in the US has nothing to do with technology being inadequate. The reason is more due to the influence of oil companies. Oil company CEOs are one of, it not, the most profitable corporations in the US, and supply large sums to political campaigns. The thought of politicians electrifying railways, and, in turn, going against these CEOs' wishes is ridiculous. This will almost certainly never happen so long as oil CEOs provide politicians for their campaigns. And, in the event a freight railroad would want to electrify, the oil CEOs could simply bribe the government into charging higher electrification taxes, which could easily wipe out any cost benefit electrification would bring. You brought up the SBB, and, while I can't argue that it IS one of, if not the best rail network out there, the reason Switzerland's railways were electrified at all was due to coal shortages, and the fact that Switzerland has no significant fossil fuel reserves, so Swiss oil CEOs aren't really a thing, meaning that electrification for both the railway and politicians was a no-brainer, greedy or not. So, is electrification technologically feasible? Yes. Does it have a good chance at ACTUALLY being done? No.
One way to make railways insanely profitable is through real estate. The six JR Group companies are doing that by massive upgrades and transforming the entire area around their railway stations into large transit oriented development all within walking distance from the station. Condominiums, schools, hotels, offices, shopping malls, groceries, convention centers, subway lines, bus and taxi terminals - all of them converge around the main railway stations. However, that would require massive changes to zoning codes across the US. If there is a great time to fight and convince the NIMBYs, it is now. Also, I suppose the nuclear lobby is powerful enough to counter the oil lobby? Given how the new reactors at Vogtle are about to be completed, the US should build more of those 3rd generation reactors.
@@connorcrowley1 that is partly because, after the 1923 earthquake, local governments across Japan, with encouragement from the national level, deliberately designed city layouts so that railways stations will be the focal point of urban development.
@@ianhomerpura8937 I don't think nuclear reactors are going to be a match for oil lobbyists, unfortunately. The reason nuclear power is so good is likely the reason it won't be able to take down the oil industry: It's energy efficient. Not to mention, oil is used in WAY more things than just fuel. Plastics, gum, golf balls, lipsticks, chapsticks, dentures, toothpaste, guitar strings, perfume, cologne, deodorant, fishing lures, just to name a few, while uranium and radium's only other use, besides for reactors is for cancer treatment. Also, oil is used for, and I think this is very telling: Tires, asphalt, antifreeze and cameras. Now, what is one thing that all four of these have in common? They're used in ROADS! And what replaced trains in the US? Roads! Coincidence? I THINK NOT! Roads use FAR more oil than their railway counterparts! So, oil companies would profit WAY more from a road-based transportation system than a rail-based one as a result of how much oil is needed to keep a road-based transportation system running. I like how you mentioned JR, though, as... JR is quite unique. It's kinda the cross between a nationalized and privatized railway network. Kind of like Amtrak, except, unlike Amtrak, JR own ALL of the infrastructure it uses. heck, it even owns the land AROUND the tracks! They also work with the Japanese government, who happily subsidizes them in return for great service, and they can veto prices that they think are too high. Not to mention, Japan electrified a lot of its railways because of the Japanese tradition of self-reliance.
Very good video! The beautiful Michigan Central Station is being fully restored in Detroit. There was some talk about bringing trains back into it but I fear this is just another tragically missed opportunity and Amtrak in Detroit will continue to use the ugly "Amshack". Keep up the great work, my friend!
The problem with using the MC station is that to continue on to Pontiac would require either a backup move or switching ends. Which while not the biggest hassle, I doubt they'll do it.
@@hawkeyetherailfan Before they started to remodel MC several tracks that fed into the mainline at both ends along with butterfly structures. These have all been removed. What could be done is a smaller structure adjacent to the mainline tracks or perhaps one or two new tracks adjacent to the main line constructed.
@@louislamonte334 My idea was to build a line that curved northeast and went under Huntington Place then went down the middle of Jefferson and turned northwest onto the original Grand Trunk line.
@@hawkeyetherailfan Well, that would be a great possibility as well. Until Detroit and so many other places gets rid of the nearly endemic auto obsession all of this is going to be a really hard sell!
@@louislamonte334 What's interesting to note is that Detroit and the State are going to remove the I-375 freeway, the eastern end is at Jefferson, and convert into it into a pedestrian friendly boulevard. So while giving GM doorstep heavy rail service might not be feasible, a Detroit with less cars is.
I've always felt the Pacific Surfliner route should be overhauled and electrified as a more useful and popular alternative to the HSR project. Elevate and reinforce the tracks along the ocean to avoit them getting washed out, remove grade crossings, and double and even triple the track along the route to allow for two way and freight traffic.
1) Empire Line: there is already third rail electrification from NYC to Croton-Harmon. Amtrak is a low user of this line, with the MTA/Hudson Line being 90% of the trains (NYC to Poughkeepsie). Don't forget that there are still freight trains on this line (east side of the Hudson River. The west side tracks are only freight, passenger service having been abandoned.) 2) Caltrain electrification is costing $47 million per mile. Catenary alone is $12 million per mile. Signalling system upgrades, transformer/utility/electrical feeds, etc add up.
I’m a little late to this, but I live along the Hartford Line. I don’t know why it’s not electrified, or why the hell no one talks about it. I didn’t know it existed until 6 months ago and it’s amazing. I wholeheartedly think if they talked about it more and electrified it, it’d be huge for this area. Don’t they have some option that can exercise to build more M8s and then just use that on the line?
25kVac and 1.5kVdc can coexist in the same system, dual tension engines are made in France for this two electrifications for decades, and with Alstom and Siemens in the US, both of them know how to build such engines
Amtrak doesn't own the tracks from Poughkeepsie and Schenectady, but has a long term lease from CSX. They would still need to coordinate with CSX. Sure it would be easier than on ROW they don't have a lease, but it's not as easy as on tracks they own. And the Metro-North area that is currently electrified with 3rd rail it is different 3rd rail from what Amtrak uses making it more complicated.
It's worth noting that the M8s also have a solution for the third rail disparity. (The M9s have the same type of third rail shoe as the M8s, though they can't use overhead wires.)
Oh my god. You pronounced “Schenectady” correctly!!!! I love your content! And glad to see one of the RARE Schenectady shout outs. I’m like a 10 minute walk from the Schenectady Amtrak. I’ll buy you a beer if you’re ever in town haha.
Empire is a bit trickier than you mention, I think. MetroNorth isn't electrified past Croton-on-Hudson. Also, the MetroNorth electrification is 3rd rail, while I think Amtrak's electric rolling stock is overhead, so either you'd need to add overhead to some of the busiest rail infra in the country, or get new rolling stock for Amtrak. Not saying they couldn't or shouldn't do it, just that it's not basically shovel ready in a week.
They could get locomotives (or, even better, EMUs) with the ability to use overhead wires and third rail (the former for service south of Croton-on-Hudson, the latter for service north of there). That's what I'd do. Hell, I've actually thought of using M8s for express service to/from Poughkeepsie under the assumption of electrification. Of course, that would cause problems for the other EMUs...
@@sonicboy678 if they're gonna electrify past Croton, they should just do 3rd rail. I guess they could use the rolling stock from the New Haven line, but it seems like it would be much easier to reduce the variety of rolling stock on the Hudson line rather than switching out one kind of variance for another. And yeah, Amtrak could use the same multimodal trains MNR uses on the New Haven line, but that would be a whole new procurement and maintenance channel for them, which they'd probably rather avoid for cost and complexity reasons.
@@16randomcharacters It would be better not to use it. Aside from the significantly lower demand north of Peekskill (and even then, demand north of _Tarrytown_ is not as good as demand south of there, particularly with how sparsely populated most areas north of Tarrytown are), third rail can't reasonably handle speeds in excess of 100 mph.
@@sonicboy678 running at or above 100MPH is not and will never be something MNR has to worry about. :-) Even for the stretches where MNR could get up to a speed like that, for instance the expresses that run straight to Croton, they are interspersed among trains with more local levels of service, so they'd be stuck behind them. Same holds for any Amtrak service running on those routes unless they ran way outside of peak hours, but I don't think people are looking to leave for Albany at like 1:45AM. Also, as someone who grew up in Ossining, even if the statistics are low on ridership, I can tell you those trains are still often pretty packed. That corridor must be pretty close to saturation, especially during peak hours.
When I served in the US Navy, going to Europe was a huge EYE OPENER! You could take trains or buses almost everywhere. For example, in Naples, Italy, you could take a train (Circumvesuviana Line) from Piazza Garibaldi to the Herculaneum ruins; the train drops you off RIGHT THERE! You walk from the stop, you're in the ancient ruins. Or, you can continue to the line's end to Sorrento, home of the black sand beach and the elevator in the cliff.
@@emjayay I don't know how much HSR was in Italy back in 1984 when I was there, but my Navy buddy and I enjoyed a high speed train between Naples and Rome! It was a nice train too. We had a table between our seats, and we played cards much of the way up. Thanks to that high speed train, we were able to visit Rome, do some sight seeing, and return-all in the same day... :)
I really find it funny the more I've read/heard about how railroads are run, is that everybody that runs them seemingly would be happier to do...anything else
I really hope that with hybrid diesel caternary equipment, Amtrak will have more excuse to electrify lines even if partially. They need to upgrade these lines!
@@FalconsEye58094 You left out the part of being electrified...which is a separate issue from being able to take the train between NYC and Montreal or Vermont(existing services, just not electrified, also, you'll probably never get electrification in Canada, even though they have abundant hydropower).
"Public services do not need to be profitable. They need to SERVE THE PUBLIC."
I cannot believe this needs to be said as much as it does.
isn't that the same problem the postal service has?
“BuT hiGhwAys pAy fOR thEmsELves!!”
I always call bullshit on that argument, if they paid for themselves they wouldn’t be falling apart.
@@MarioYoshi4723 Agreed. Unless it's a toll road, it really doesn't pay for itself...
It's simply unfeasible under capitalism. The POINT of capitalism is to expand profiteering (see: "exploitation" or "theft") to all possible ends and finding new means to extract further profit, since the Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall requires infinite expansion (in an increasingly finite Earth) or else profit will fall.
It's not just some funny coincidence that public services were incredible under the USSR, socialist China and many other socialist experiments. When you put power in the hands of the workers instead of in the hands of the elite, things that benefit everyone (healthcare, public transit, education) all improve in both quality AND access.
...and, *no:* simply "voting" won't do anything; aforementioned elites would never allow a system to exist that's so powerful as America's so-called democracy is mythologised to be. Why would the ultra-powerful not only allow but _pay for_ a system that could bring about an end to their tyranny? Such a system never existed, and they want you to imagine their sham-democracy works so you'll waste your time on that instead of making actual, effective changes. All capitalist countries do this, of course, not just America. "The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house."
The only way to improve life for the working class is to exile those who exploit us to the point of not only them bringing about the end of humanity, but all life on Earth. These exploiters can only be removed in the same way they established their power in the first place; by cannon and by rifle.
@@metalproofed3089 Yuuuuuuup
Also, I find that Detroit has such potential for a great commuter/regional/international rail system but it's being hindered by old ideologies and the dark legacy of the fall of Detroit.
Plus given that it will be the safest place to be once Florida sinks below sea level, it won't be long before people go there again.
Chicago-Detroit/Windsor-Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec City.
200kph+ speed train in that corridor would be amazing.
@@ianhomerpura8937 I jokingly call Michigan "inverse Florida".
@@mbogucki1 VIA Rail is already upgrading their trains. If only CN and CP weren't full of PSR simps as well, it would have been far better.
It’s been said before but Detroit just doesn’t have a lot of money to go around and when they do get federal funding leaders seem to spend it in the worst ways.
The metro area needs transportation experts who can oversee projects or something
I feel like amtrack is achievemnt hunting in a game like " Stay un- electrified for 100 years"
I mean, to be fair, it's kind of hard to do huge capital projects like that in the position Amtrak has been in since its inception. Especially when they don't own the vast majority of track miles they operate on, not to mention the chronic lack of federal funding like you see with the federal highway fund. That said, at least they got something reasonable in the last budget. Sadly, doubt they're getting much more.
@@eirinym You mean without asking the military to step in and call it matter of national security because High Speed Rail can move personnel and equipment around the country very quickly.
The only fault with that is the New Hampshire to Boston electrification in the late 1990s. so I guess if Amtrak doesn’t do anything for the next century then It will get that achievement.
Civilization 6 achievement
@@KRYMauL They won't though, that's not really the military's style. Instead if anything they'll pay some company billions for a half-baked high-speed diesel or rocket-propelled locomotive instead.
The freight rail line Amtrak from Michigan city to Chicago is sooo slow, using the SSL right of way is actually brilliant
Especially since they are double tracking the SSL now and eliminating the street running segment in Michigan City
Does anyone know how the street-running changes might affect that?
@@samwalko Amtrak wouldn't use the old streetrunning segment, anyway. But yes, the Double Track project makes the idea much more feasible.
@@samwalko the last of the street running has been done away with, since south shore started the new double track project, and I'm not sure where amtrak territory start's in Michigan city but if its west of town then the trains wouldn't even enter the former street running section since they would be on their own main. although one thing I am curious about is how would the connection from union station to the electric lines/south shore be made
@@martinfaland7819 The Amtrak/SSL diamond is in the middle of the two parts that were street running where it switched from 10th street to 11th street. That said, my understanding was that the tracks would still be street-running but just with a second track; however, upon further review, this at most applies to 11th street. The 10th street street running is to be moved entirely to the side of the road, and that's the only part Amtrak would need to use.
The same fight about electrification has been going on in the UK for DECADES. The fact is that government agencies find it super hard to finance capital expenditure for electrification (with a repayment time of 60 years or longer) versus the "quick fix" finance deal you can get for some modification to the trains. It's incredibly frustrating.
Which is why it's very weird that HS2 is being heavily criticized. People need experience with electrification. Once you have enough people that can work on it, plus the funding and equipment needed, the task would be much faster.
Just like India electrifying at the rate of 6,000 km a year.
It's completely bonkers if you know anything about capital markets and other stuff. Like banks LOVE to lent money to government and such agency would always pay it back and if you take out loan for 50+ yrs, not only are the payment so small you can fit them in the consequent increased margins but also gets incredibly small interest rate. It's no brainer for a government to take out loans on hugely beneficial infra project like High Speed Rail, electrifications, subways or my favourite Nuclear Power Plants. IDK who or why someone came up with "the government need ROI within shorter time than large corpos" but it must have been to intentionally cause harm.
@@hhvhhvcz it's got quite a lot to do with populism in politics since the early 00s - short term projects win votes because the average voter doesn't care about anything after the next 10 years
@@ianhomerpura8937 HS2 will be dead within the next 3 months. The UK is bankrupt (as is the USA).
At least we have the admittedly very weak excuse that some of the tunnels are too narrow for catenaries. Still compared to say the money put into the bloody silvertown tunnel it is chump change. I'd say electrify instead of HS2 phase 2 but I zero faith that the government would actually invest the money into rail.
I'm an airline pilot based out of Chicago, one of the routes I fly is Chicago-O'hare to South Bend airport. It's a 20 minute flight but it usually takes almost 2 hours from boarding to deplaning after you add up boarding time and taxi time to get from the runways to the terminal at O'hare. Many times the flight is delayed due to weather at O'hare or mechanical issues with the aging CRJ-200s that we use to run the route. The South Shore Line pulls directly into the South Bend airport terminal, but to get from the South Shore Line stop at the SBN airport to O'hare takes THREE AND HALF HOURS and there are only seven trains a day. Even driving can take up to three hours during rush hour. So this totally absurd and pointless flight will continue to exist for the foreseeable future because we can't get our trains to go 90 miles in less than 2 hours. Don't get me started on the Milwaukee-O'hare route, which already has a bus service that takes less time than the flight.
That's insane! I just looked on the map and a route like Chicago - Gary - South Bend - Fort Wayne - Toledo - Detroit looks like a prime example for an _conventional_ (read: relativly cheap) high speed (160km/h / 100mph) connection (if you don't want a real highspeed).
It would be as fast as the direct car route between those cities (if not faster), just barely the range where a train ride does not feel too long and connecting 2 huge cities with several midsize ones (and small ones with local trains).
And it would be faster than your flight to reach South Bend.
@@steemlenn8797 Part of the problem will always be: What do you do when you get to Fort Wayne, Toledo, etc. to get to your final destination? Many final destinations are now in the suburbs. Local public transit no longer exists or is not practical or safe to use as it was in the 1920s.
I've always thought the Air Wisconsin CRJ2 routes out of ORD are a sad reminder of the lack of train travel in the region. One hundred years ago, you could probably ride Milwaukee Road's Hiawatha train and get there a half hour faster than any alternative today
I also think it will always exist for the convenience of connecting passengers. If I'm going to London, I might as well just get on a plane in South Bend than drive or take the train all the way to the city, and then find my way to the airport. That's really who the flight is intended for, not people solely flying between South Bend and Chicago.
Currently to take the SSL from Chicago to South Bend its about two hours and twenty five minutes. If you're starting in downtown Chicago, the SSL is going to be faster than going out to O'Hare.
The Southshore Double Track project should help solve the timing. Currently it takes about an hour and forty minutes to get from Chicago to Michigan City. Once the double track project is complete it'll be down to sixty seven minutes. Total time from Millennium Park to South Bend would be around an hour and forty fiveish minutes. They're also going to be running more trainsets more frequently.
If you want to go from O'Hare you have to add in about an hour for the blue line.
The SSL stop at SBN was also only supposed to be temporary but became permanent. The route into South Bend follows a bunch of weird sidings and turns that slow the train down. The original plan called for building a station into downtown South Bend. There's been take in the last few years of bring that plan to life, however, costs are pretty high. Between the double track and west lake corridor projects, unless South Bend funds the entire project, its probably not going to happen anytime soon. However, if it does happen, and your final destination is South Bend itself, SSL may actually become the more attractive option.
8:30 - "You don't need to make public services profitable, you just need to make it serve the public." Well said!
There's one way to make them profitable while still keeping the services public: real estate. That is how Japan did it: buy all the land around the main railway stations, then densify the hell out of them all at once, then rent them to all kinds of businesses and institutions like residences, offices, schools, and shopping centers. This makes sure that there will always be foot traffic in and out of the stations.
@@ianhomerpura8937 correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t the railways in Japan privatized?
@@ianhomerpura8937 that’s how most of the original rail lines in the US were built as well. We seemed to have forgotten how to do that, except for Brightline now.
@@smallflame85 they are. But Japan has been doing these massive transit oriented developments even before the JNR was privatized and broken up in 1987. So far it has been very effective in keeping the railways out of the red, especially in JR East and JR Central.
@@ianhomerpura8937 density around train stations? In the US? A pipe dream
While my parents are from NJ, I was born in Westchester. They specifically chose Westchester because of the convenience of the Metro North's Hudson Line to NYC where my father worked as an attorney. Heck, I was almost named Hudson because we lived by the river. We lived up a hill and only around a ten-minute walk down to the Metro North station in a very walkable area.
The Hudson Line/southern Empire Corridor line along the Hudson is one of the most beautiful routes in the nation simply because of the views at 0:00. ESPECIALLY during Fall. Seeing those Palisades makes me grateful of all the nature that the US has to offer. The US is BLESSED to have such wonders, and it saddens me when such nature is threatened. It is why we must protect it.
I miss the efficiency of MTA, for all its flaws. I grew up in queens so I'm more familiar with the L and M but the Metro North and LIRR should be the standard for commuter rail around the country.
@@MelGibsonFan Boston just got LIRR's former GM, Phillip Eng, as their new GM.
I’m riding the Empire Corridor in a couple days so that’s nice to hear.
Imagine if tomorrow, Amtrak announced that they were planning a new electrification project on one of these lines.
I'd hope it'd be Boston-Springfield
@@ninyaninjabrifsanovichthes45 That wouldn't be Amtrak, that would be MassDOT.
ten thousand housewives would be protecting in DC about the dangers of electricity and a whole lot of NIMBY talk.
I was talking to a guy that worked on that line when they were upgrading it. He said the line is ready for electrification. They future proofed the line. Eventually they want to use the New Haven to Hartford portion for HSR to Boston.
Finally, Central Mass can into Northeast Corridor.
They finally gave up on reviving the old Air Line, huh?
@@ClockworksOfGL Too many NIMBYS. The only way to fix the section between New Haven and Providence is to pull the curves out. Too much old money and boomers.
A new direct, electrified HSR route between Hartford (actually, Manchester) and Worcester (actually, Auburn) via Sturbridge, paralleling I-87 and the Mass Pike, would make the inland route significantly shorter and faster than the Shoreline route, and add the capacity people think is necessary. This highway corridor is much more feasible than the New Haven-Providence routing which was being promoted a few years ago, and would add direct service to NYC for Worcester, the second largest city in New England.
I've lived in Madison, Wi my whole life and it's so infuriating to know that despite being a growing city of about 300,000 (and about 700,000 in metro area) and once having two railroad stations, now the closest Amtrak station is 28 miles outside the city in Columbus. It's so dissapointing to see all the stations in Madison and surrounding cities just sitting there. There was a plan in 2011 to have a high speed rail system connect from Chicago to Minneapolis that would finally reconnect the city, but our then governor (Scott Walker) refused the $810 million provided to fund it's construction because "It wouldn't be profitable". He then decided to spend $1.7 billion on reconstructing the Zoo Interchange in Milwaukee that solved little to nothing in traffic...
You are so right! It is so frustrating that Madison doesn’t have passenger rail service.
Add Milwaukee to the electrification and run trains through to Milwaukee from Detroit.
agreed, we were so close and he was a stick in the mud about it. hopefully, the project can get going again at some point.
Have you ever looked into going to Chicago by first taking the Badger Bus over to Milwaukee and then taking the Hiawatha train down to Union Station? Turns out that it's not feasible. Yes, the Badger Bus does go to the Milwaukee Intermodal station...but the Badger Bus arrives there about 5 minutes after the train leaves, so there's an 1.5 hour layover. So it's way faster, cheaper, and more convenient to just take the bus from Madison to O'hare.
@@radishpineapple74 As much as I’ve liked Badger Bus over the years, they supported killing the train extension to Madison, and I’m sure it’s not an accident that they don’t connect.
Pennsylvania having one of the best electrified routes with the Keystone Line (Philly to Harrisburg) is so funny to me.
The Empire Corridor under Manhattan unironically have overhead caternary lines in the cuts.
Hearing the president of Amtrak talk about "making it profitable" makes me downright angry. How can someone running a public service be that out of touch. Absolutely ridiculous. It's people like that who are to blame for the US not having quality, affordable, and electric High Speed Rail.
Amtrak was mandated to be profitable by Congress when it was created. It is out of touch, but I can't solely blame one person who has to balance the competing pressures of both the service-demanding public AND congress which provides necessary operating funding.
Electrifying the Wolverine Corridor and using the SSL right-of-way makes a ton of sense. Maybe even stopping at Gary, too. And keep in mind that a good chunk of the line in Indiana is slated to be double-tracked.
Only problems I could see would be having to deal with CN (like you said) and track speed, especially between Miller and Kensington.
I've had this idea of turning the South Shore into a intercity corridor for a while, although my idea includes getting the eastern Amtrak trains on at South Bend. The way I came up with to avoid that section is to use an old Pere Marquette right of way that comes close to the South Shore near Miller then runs on the south side of Gary on an elevated ROW, then the line comes to the east end of the Indiana Harbor Belt's yard in Hammond, from where you can pick up the former Michigan Central line for a straight shot through to Kensington. The PM part is double tracked but needs new bridges, the MC line needs new tracks next to the IHB, and the bridge over the Little Calumet River is still there but it is signal track.
Using the South Shore to Michigan may be a temporary solution.
The VP of Amtrak State-Supported Services has mentioned that the CREATE Grand Crossing Project is not dead, but its mission would change. If the proposed St. Charles Air Line Connector gets built (they're waiting on word of the MEGA grant now) Michigan/eastbound trains could one day travel from Union Station onto CN's former IC mainline to Grand Crossing, where trains would transfer onto Amtrak-owned passenger-only tracks that would be built on the abandoned New York Central right-of-way out of Chicago, connecting to Porter and the line into Michigan.
Where the South Shore Line would play a more critical role long-term is for a return of the Hoosier State corridor train. Once South Shore's West Lake Extension is complete, in 2025 or so, Amtrak wants to negotiate with INDOT on the possibility of bringing the Chicago-Indianapolis train back, likely with terms similar to those currently being offered to Ohio on the 3C+D corridor - all capital costs and nearly all operating subsidies covered for the first five years, provided the state picks up the tab on operating costs afterward.
The same Amtrak VP suggested that a new Hoosier State could serve as a showcase for what is possible on state-supported corridors, and mentioned an extensive rebuild of trackage between Dyer and Indianapolis, likely up to 110MPH standards. Why not electrification as well?
The great thing about Virginia is that not only did it indeed buy the CSX ROW between DC and Richmond, but it also bought the CSX S-Line in tandem with North Carolina. This means we could build an entirely new passenger-rail corridor from Raleigh to DC and up the rest of the NEC.
*half the csx row, but for such a heavily used corridor, it's still a good deal
I don’t quite understand the WAS to Richmond purchase, as it’s phrased “much of.” Linear or lateral? Who will dispatch it? In any case, more parallel track is going in, and the megabux Long Bridge over the Potomac is almost contracted, with lots of fed dollars I think. The other megabux project, to change everything about pax rail from RVR to PTB, is sleeping quietly, though the plans have been approved for a few years. Likewise S Line HSR is sleeping, aside from survey contracts.
A new electrified corridor, inshallah.
@@kitchin2 - last I read - Dispatch - Amtrak from DC to Alexandria and then CSX even though Virginia Passenger Rail Authority owns (or will own) the right of way. I really don't understand that - perhaps someone else has better information.
They should electrify DC to Richmond to Raleigh to Charlotte since NC owns the Ral to Charlotte line.. then they can extend to Atlanta later
Yes pls do a video on the entire empire corridor, upstate has some great cities with good bones and decent public transit and I feel like strong train lines would be a huge boost to an area that’s a lot better than ppl give credit
I second this wholeheartedly. The corridor between NYC, Upstate and Toronto is so ripe with good transit potential that it kills me that no one is talking about it. I’m from Syracuse and the fact that we don’t have NEC style routes up here like we used to sucks
Yess I would like also a video on the empire corridor
Empire Service benefits from good frequency.
indeed, would be very cool to see what problems need to be rectified on the route
If we're talking about true upstate (Albany -> North) meh.
There are bones. Huge D&H presence at one time. But populations in the north country don't head very far south and those in NYC don't usually go past Lake George. Sacandoga is loading up on NYCers as well and it's only drivable today. The tracks are under water.
Toga could be a good stop during track season. However most of the socialites live there for the summer. They travel twice: Once in June and once in September. The trip from NYC is waaaay to long just for the day and the tix too expensive.
Lake George is the next possible tourist stop but there's no place for a station. The D&H is now RT9 with the CSX single track all the way over in Fort Edward. Again those people travel twice per year.
For winter sports its far faster to drive then take a train. Going to Whiteface? It's 2.2 hours or so from Toga via car at 65 to 70 MPH. The trains can't break 55 in many places here.
1. Always under construction south of Albany.
2. CSX
3. North of Albany is many more turns.
Albany has tried to get high speed rail up to at least Albany for years and can't accomplish even that. It's simply too expensive.
If there was a more rail traffic just to Saratoga to start that'd be a huge win imo for a reasonable price of Metro North not $89. I'd go to far more Mets and Islanders games.
What we here: A man speaking straight facts
what the US government hears: An actual good use of taxes
What congress here's: A complete waste of their money
"Public services don't need to make profit, they need to serve the public"
Based and civics-pilled
Hospitals: Ima pretend I didn’t hear that
Amtrak technically does have a requirement to attempt to make a profit. This could be removed, but it might require a corporate reorganization.
"I don't need to worry about if my massive spending makes any sense, just increase taxes"
BTW, that's how you get mass famines. You guys get in charge of everything and people start starving to death.
You decide you need fancy new rail line, and take the steel away from building tractors.
@@TheOwenMajor That’s not at all what he said. Making sense and being profitable are 2 very different requirements. Sewers aren’t profitable. Neither are courts, or streets, or libraries, or schools (at least k-12). Whether those things are worth building is judged based off of the net benefit to society, both in terms of efficiency (better infrastructure means more business and more efficient business) or in terms of standard of living (people not constantly dying of cholera) rather than whether that specific project will pay for itself. After all, if something costs 20 million, and causes a rise in gdp of 60 million, is it really a bad investment for the state?
Also, I know you’re talking about the Soviet and Chinese famines, but I should point out that the main reasons for those famines were not accidents with the budget, but that the states were deliberately exporting food produced in order to have the capital to industrialize faster. This decision was incredibly cruel and stupid (and in the case of the Holodomor genocidal) but they weren’t cases of state spending run amok, and they weren’t unique to communism (see British policy having landlords in Ireland produce beef and continue exporting it during the potato famine to England to keep food cheap for factory workers, or similar policy in India to keep cotton cheap and causing multiple famines and 10’s of millions of deaths).
@@matthew87451 Indian goverment is also Massacring Muslims in India
Honorable mention for the Pacific Surfliner made my day. Especially since the segment between LA and Anaheim will need to be electrified for the CAHSR. My big wishlist would be for LOSSAN to electrify the entirety of the Pacific Surfliner corridor from San Luis Obispo to San Diego as well as all of the Metrolink lines.
I believe SCRRA/Metrolink only owns the tracks as far as Moorpark, and UP owns them beyond that. LA to SD is the busiest US passenger rail corridor outside the NE, and it makes so much sense to electrify. One of the biggest hurdles though would be Redondo Junction to Fullerton Junction, since that's owned by BNSF and is a busy freight corridor. Fullerton Junction to the Orange/SD County line is owned by SCRRA, and from there to San Diego is owned by NCTD.
One thing CAHSR is proposing is building a new intermodal facility in Colton, since based on their research there's a number of intermodal trains traveling from the Midwest that go to Hobart Yard in LA, only for their containers to then be trucked back out to their destination in the Inland Empire. So by building a new facility in Colton, those trains would terminate there and open up those train slots for HSR.
The other obvious biggest hurdle is the fact the tracks along the coast are prone to being impacted by surf and erosion, as is happening right now with the tracks in San Clemente closed to passenger traffic (I believe freight is still moving through there at reduced speeds) likely through December. The tracks along the Del Mar cliffs are also at serious risk, though I have been seeing plans move forward on a tunnel underneath Del Mar to move the tracks away from the cliffs. So tracks would need to be moved away from the surf before electrification could happen, or you do it in phases: LA to Anaheim, Anaheim to Laguna Niguel, SD to Oceanside (after rerouting Del Mar and possibly a Miramar Hill bypass tunnel), then Laguna Niguel to Oceanside.
One final thing, and I've been wondering if maybe this is why HSR/electrification is ending in Anaheim, is that the Surf Line has autoracks going between San Diego/Baja CA and the Midwest. Just east of Anaheim is a junction that connects the Surf Line with the BNSF mainline, with freight trains going between SD and San Bernardino/West Colton. Though given there isn't a clearance issue with electrification and double stacks, and autoracks are about the same height, then that shouldn't be an issue. If the Surf Line were electrified all the way to SD, I've thought that hypothetically HSR could continue on it past Anaheim to SD via Oceanside, until their route through Riverside and Murrieta is completed.
I just wish Amtrak had more vertical lines. There is no reason that going from Detroit to Buffalo requires you to go all the way back to Chicago to go east. Literally one short line would save hours on a trip.
Hear hear! I'm down here in Georgia, and to get from Atlanta (middle-north Georgia) to Savannah (southeast Georgia), you need to ride all the way north to D.C., then back down south. It takes less than 5 hours to drive, but almost 30 hours to ride a train. It's absurd.
@@NoobsofFredo Brightline will take that over I suspect once they are done with Jacksonville and Tampa.
trains can only drive horizontal. they cannot drive vertical because of gravity
@@leonpaelinck Lines that run from north to south instead of east to west
Detroit to Toledo could very feasibly be a regional rail line, especially given that the existing ROW is already quad tracked and passes through numerous dense, moderately walkable suburbs of both cities and the city of Monroe as well. Unfortunately, I dont see the car cult leaving Michigan's politics for a long time, and our attempts at commuter rail in the mid 2010s failed despite being an even more obvious and easy project
How can fucking America not have electrified rail? As an Euroman it's an absurd.
We have mainline electrification from Boston to Washington, D.C., and from Philadelphia to Harrisburg in Pennsylvania.
@@OldsVistaCruiser I have electrification between all major cities and some minor ones, around 60% of lines. Most was done in the last 30 years after capitalism was invented.
@@malakimphoros2164 - Which country? We have a very strong ultra conservative faction in the States, which opposes electric vehicles because they claim that the electric grid is insufficient, yet they oppose modernizing the grid!
@@OldsVistaCruiser Poland, we have many russian agents in the gouvernement who don't want fossil fuels to go, even if it's an unsustainable money drain that ultimately benefits our greatest enemy.
But there are plenty trains, sometimes late but generally they are fine.
@@malakimphoros2164 sad thing is europe doesnt have one agreed on electricity voltage
A small problem that wasn’t really touched on with the Amtrak Michigan line is that MDOT and Amtrak don’t own the ROW for the last four stops, including Detroit. To get wires into Detroit and out to the terminus at Pontiac, they’d still have to deal with CN
In my opinion it shouldn’t be hard to nationalize rail owned by Canadian Northern because they are a foreign railroad. They really have no excuse to be owning any track in the US.
@@gumbyshrimp2606 MDOT could use eminent domain to claim the rest of the tracks on the route, or Amtrak could use dual mode operation
CN also owns the short section through Battle Creek.
@@gumbyshrimp2606 Why do Canadian public agencies buy rail cars and locos built in Sacramento? Why are FerroMex locos all over central US? Why does Grupo Mexico own the FEC in Florida? Profit, finite capital. Politics in the Buy America law, maybe shenanigans in Florida. Brightline, owned by SoftBank, a Japanese company, is certainly seeing capital constraints.
@@gumbyshrimp2606 CN's US lines are owned on paper by an American railroad, specifically Wisconsin Central Ltd or Grand Trunk Corporation.
The stretch of rail from Washington, D.C. to Richmond, Virginia is a prime candidate for electrfication also.
Amtrak’s leaders going from Anderson to Gardner is like Paper Mario Sticker Star to Color Splash
One is slightly less worse then the other, SLIGHTLY
Edit: Bill Flynn is Origami King, not terrible, but not all that great either
so basically next to no improvement at all?
Honestly as bad as Anderson was, I’m surprised Trump didn’t appoint someone worse.
this is such a perfect comparison LMAO
At least Gardner was with Amtrak before all of them...remember, he worked for Amtrak when Wick was CEO.
We need 1000 year door level management for amtrak
Interesting. I'd prioritize the NYC to Schenectady line only because Albany being the state capital would benefit from faster service to and from NYC. Next would be the Springfield line. The Detroit - Chicago line, although logical, would require more coordination. Along with electrification, these routes should also eliminate all highway grade crossings. As long as you are going to spend the money, do it right. I live near Richmond, VA, and take the Northeast corridor trains between home and NYC. There is a huge difference in service between Richmond and DC versus DC to NYC. Hopefully, this route would also be considered. It would still mean deselization between Richmond and Norfolk/Hampton Roads.
Aka build a tunnel under the James with navy approval
Personally I'd do NY and CT in the opposite order because CT has a lot of local service still using diesel, and you don't need to deal with multiple agencies. Most of the NY local service is already electric anyway.
But yeah the cost/benefit of those lines is clearly way better than the Michigan corridor which doesn't have any regional rail service and isn't that frequent.
The new locos will be dual mode at least.
NYC to SCH sounds great however its more likely to stop in ALB. There's not enough daily traffic in SCH.
Albany has been trying to upgrade NYC to ALB for years as well as bring in HSR.
It's not going to happen. It's far too expensive which is why it fails in the budget every year. It'd be nice but there's no way.
I grew up in South Bend and used the Wolverine quite a bit in grad school, so it makes me quite happy to see the Wolverine and South Shore mentioned. MDOT has been painfully slow at upgrading the Kalamazoo-Dearborn portion to 110 mph, but at least KZoo-Battle Creek is up to 110 now. Just wish they would also double track the whole thing.
why, it dont have that much trains
The Japanese, Germans, Spanish, French, Chinese, or even British should have been hired to do the job. MDOT is incompetent.
@@dknowles60 Maybe it doesn't have many trains because it can't expand service with the current setup and shortages...In 2019, the Wolverine alone had over 500,000 riders, making it the 3rd most popular Amtrak route in the Midwest (behind Hiawatha and Lincoln Service). The Blue Water also uses those tracks up to Battle Creek, which saw almost 200K riders in 2019.
They are definitely popular services despite only having 4 round trips total (3 Wolverine, 1 Blu Water).
Even with our current grid (not lots of renewable generation) switching to electric power cuts the emissions of a car approximately in half.
I can’t think of any reason to assume that trains wouldn’t be roughly similar. Add onto that the lower operational costs and we’re basically saying that we can save money at the same time that we fight climate change?!?
Sign. Me. Up!
It would actually be far less because less of a need to mine lithium as they get their power from overhead lines, so it would be even better
@@LiamMcBride I actually wasn’t even speaking to the manufacturing emissions. Just the emissions of transporting every mile. You’re absolutely right though!
This is a really good point.
*WHOA!!!* I am shocked the Hiawatha Service is not among the three routes or AT LEAST in the honorable mentions. IIRC it is the busiest route in the midwest. I get that a lot of the track belongs to freight lines, but so do those of some of the honorable mentions...
The Wolverine line runs from Pontiac Michigan to Chicago.From Pontiac to Dearborn CN then MDOT owned tracks from Dearborn to Kalamazoo,then Amtrak owned Kalamazoo to Porter Indiana.Amtrak has full right of way from Dearborn to Porter Indiana and large sections of 110mph.Almost 90% of the trip is free of freight .
A couple of problems with the Michigan Service - first, Amtrak and the State of Michigan own the line from Porter, IN to Dearborn, MI - the corridor runs from Chicago Union Station to Pontiac, MI. Also, the tracks through Battle Creek are owned by the Canadian National. The South Shore route into Chicago is a horrible route compared to the NS - it's longer, and it has probably close to 75 road crossings at grade, compared to only a handful on the NS route - and the NS route is much more direct. Electrification is an excellent idea, but the cost to electrify tracks into Chicago Union Station would be cost prohibitive for one route. The better option would be for dua
l mode equipment - electrify Porter to Dearborn and use dual mode equipment...
"Higher track speeds like 80mph". America is so behind, it's incredible
I live on the Springfield-Hartford-New Haven line, it would be great to have that electrified especially since it cuts straight through my town. It would ALSO stop the annoying business of having to have an engine swap at a certain point.
The Surfliner tracks are going to be moved inland (they are dangerously close to the shore in San Clemente and train service is actually suspended between Oceanside and Irvine right now because of erosion), so that'd be a good time to do it. PS: I'm not sure *WHERE* the tracks can get moved inland, especially north of Oceanside since the USMC base Camp Pendleton effectively takes up everything between Oceanside and Orange County
If the tracks DO get electrified, then maybe Metrolink and the Coaster (commuter rail lines) could get on the bandwagon
The plan right now is to tunnel inland along the Del Mar Bluffs...if they're smart enough, they can actually shore up the coast at San Clemente to not even have to worry about any erosion...just look at what Network Rail did at Dawlish for an idea.
@@andyinsdca Yes they can, the tracks in Dawlish are right next to the water as well...and in that case it's the violent Atlantic storms they have to deal with...it wasn't even that hard of an engineering feat either. Do you know what they're doing to stabilize it...installing steel supports to either side of the sliding earth and then putting in horizontal braces to hold it in place.
Very good points here! Whenever I ride Amtrak between New Haven and Springfield I wish the line was electrified.
Regardless of whether electrification for the Wolverine happens one day, going through Indiana via the SSL tracks will make things sooo much better. We’re going 110 mph through the west side of the state just to crawl through Michigan City-Gary at at maybe 10 mph.
That has always been the bottleneck, I can’t believe there’s a solution that seems relatively simple, yet hasn’t been touched for the past couple decades.
What's especially funny to me is that they use the South Shore as a detour route. One of my favorite video I've found here is an Amtrak train going over the big blue bridge in Hegewisch, Chicago.
@@hawkeyetherailfan did not know that, incredible.
@@conorreynolds9739 it is because car companies bought out the us government resulting in lack of trains
Yes!!!! Living in Springfield for a long time always wanted that route to be electrified. Glad we got that shout out.
Springfield-Boston would be an amazing idea, connecting Central Mass to the rest of the NEC.
@@ninyaninjabrifsanovichthes45 Agreed. Would be nice to have a good commute to Boston.
MDOT blew the budget on the I-94 modernization project, $4 billion to add a 4th lane in each direction in Detroit on the eastside to Conner. Easily could have funded electrification on the Wolverine for the entire cross state route, but no. More highways🙄.
Motorists need to get through Detroit as quickly as possible. It is a safety and also a psychological concern.
@@ednorton47 Detroit could merit it’s own video, but it isn’t surprising a city so oriented around the automobile is having massive issues. Car reliance begets poverty which increases crime. Look at the most violent cities in America like Detroit, New Orleans, and St. Louis. All have really poor public transport.
@@ednorton47 Detroit a tuff city especially the eastside, but ain’t as bad as they say. Take Gratiot instead of the freeway you be fine, ain’t nothing happening to you.
Glad to hear there is an effort to improve train service between DC and RVa. I grew up In Richmond and considering retiring there in a few years.
They should extend it even further down to Raleigh and Charlotte. Both cities are growing at a rapid pace, given that both are becoming financial and tech centers.
And rename it to the east coast corridor
@@ianhomerpura8937 I do think that's in the current plans. We have to hope the current governor doesn't sabotage them, though, as Republicans are often anti-train for some reason.
@@jamalgibson8139 his suburbanite voters take vre, i think he just has no idea about it cause nothing happened yet
Virginia plays nice with CSX and NS so I doubt electrification there. Prob Petersburg to Raleigh S-line HSR would happen first. Examples of how VA plays: very big $ to CSX and NS for cap improvements over the last two decades. 2. Moving NPN station nine miles up line away from CSX port. 3. Buying wanky Buckingham Branch (CSX coal, so uncertain long term future). 4. Buying non-mainline from RNK to VT. The deals are cautious on frequency increases. Results have been good by all measures: ridership, operating margins, low ticket prices. But not as bold as to electrify WAS to Richmond, in my opinion. Bonus tip: PTB to NFK is the best rail in the state. Somebody at N&W knew how to lay track, and NS maintains it.
I hope Amtrak is seeing your videos, because they really need to hire you.
Fr
Part of the problem is the costs have outstripped inflation. So if we were to build using the estimated per mile cost of 1999 with inflation factored in (4 mil), this would be a lot easier of a decision. The problem is that for some reason the per mile costs have increased dramatically. I remember reading that one of the new haven branch lines on metro north(I think waterberry) had two estimates done for electric, one done in the mid 2000’s had it at about 8 million per mile, while one done a few years later had it at 15 million a mile. If we are to do these projects we need to figure out why this stuff has dramatically increased in costs so much. Trains already have a hard enough time getting funding, so we need to be able to maximize the little bit we do get because if we keep letting costs ballon nothing will get built.
Another good electrification project would be the Capitol Corridor from Sacramento to Oakland and San Jose, especially if there ends up being a new tunnel for standard gauge trains under SF bay.
Actually their is some that's is talking about Electrification for Capitol Corridor and also upgrade 125 or 150 mph, though it's 2050 plan, but thats got be sign also.
some good news, the springfield corridor (at least in ct) is under study to be electrified! i'm glad i live in ct when it comes to trains, stuff seems really promising
Is that true? I had last heard that Connecticut DOT was actually looking into purchasing god awful duel-mode diesel locos that wouldn’t be implemented until like 2030 (ironically, the duel mode locos would cost MORE than actual overhead line electrification)
@@toadscoper4575 yeah, that was true but a lot of investment has been made in the last few months only honestly, and the state rail plan draft came out and has a LOT to do with passenger rail and green solutions. it won't be perfect, but it's def a step in the right direction
I'd love a longer video on the wolverine line, why we need service to Toledo, the Amtrak plans for service to Windsor, and Michigan Central (which in theory Ford was going to keep the rail for future trains, but it's unclear if they've kept that promise).
I'd like one on CTrail or MBTA commuter rail.
Please just give us a train from Cincinnati -> Cbus -> Cleveland
All the cities are super walkable but none of the nice little walking pockets are connected with transit
Imagine an HSR line between the three C's. Live in Cleveland and work in Cincinnati, with an hour and a half commute. Probably a pipe dream but still, i can dream
@@ohioman4646 Too bad it got killed, but I do agree that we should invest in better service, and not infrequent amtrak trains that take twice as long as it would be to drive and cost a ton of money
@@tonywalters7298 State funding drives Amtrak decisions for sure.
Yeah, those cities need actual rapid transit; Cleveland is the only city that has that. Cincinnati built a subway 100 years ago but never opened it.
*The next day* Amtrak electrifies all these routes
Sounds like a good plan but what are the odds they won't do it and cite Caltrain's electrification project as the reason why?
The Caltrain upgrade has been messy but not necessarily because of the electrification itself; it's largely been the track upgrades to make it CAHSR-ready and to ensure that the at-grade crossings can work under wire.
The Michigan Line is having issues with just staffing our trains to begin with, the management over here is a mess. Electrification would be nice, though.
Doesn’t it have the highest track speed outside the NEC? For x miles anyway.
@@kitchin2 I think so, yeah. It's cleared to go 110Mi/h from east of Porter, IN to Dearborn, MI, with the exception of a small part of Battle Creek, MI, and east of Dearborn. Something like that.
@@SergeantTeabag Currently, the track is only rated for 110MPH from Porter, IN, to Albion, MI. They've been working on upgrading the remaining sections, but what they do upgrade won't improve service by much since the right-of-way east of Battle Creek is less straight than the western section.
"The grid can be powered by any source and can be switched to clean energy power later or whenever is necessary."
THIS. This is why railways in some countries today are mostly immune to the ongoing oil and gas price surges. Since their systems are mostly electrified, they can choose whatever energy options are there at the table - coal, oil, gas, solar, wind, tidal, geothermal, nuclear, or all at once. Win win solution for everyone.
Unfortunately the US refuses to use anything but fossil fuels. Like please for the love of god at least try nuclear.
What about Biodiesel
@@pakboimsal8498 if you can afford to do so, then go. But even that is getting expensive. Electricity is still much cheaper.
Im waiting for the boomers to be like “But Alan, electrification is communism!!!”
Here in Australia, 95% of our suburban rail systems are juiced up. My home city of Perth has line from north to south through the CBD (under it actually) at 95mph and 5 minute frequencies in peak.
Indian Railways also runs wild double stacks with new electric juice jacks.
Indian Railways have some of the most powerful EMUs out there, and most of them serve double stack dedicated freight lines.
@Ian Homer Pura yet the country has no indoor plumbing, and the infrastructure is shit and the government is run by Nazis so you're praising a country that is basically Nazi Germany in modern day.
Australia is interesting cause its like halfway between the US and Europe in terms of transit systems. In the big cities where most of the people live (you'll never see Oz the same way again once you realise it's basically a bunch of city-states) they all have extensive suburban rail systems and a few of them have light rail systems as well (I believe Adelaide is the only major city left whose suburban rail network isn't fully electrified). And NSW and Vic have good regional rail networks as well.
And then you have long-distance trains which are in a very sorry state in Australia these days. First of all, the Indian Pacific and the Ghan have gone from proper rail services to overpriced tourism packages for old rich fuckers because of privatization (same reason the Overland is now hanging on by a thread). The only sorta decent long-distance trains are NSW's XPTs and Queensland's Tilt Train. A major factor in this is absolutely the fact that the rail operators have been too conservative to electrify anything outside of a major urban area - even without a dedicated high-speed rail corridor (which would be very nice either way) electrifying the existing Sydney-Melbourne corridor would do wonders. In this respect Queensland Rail has been the only operator with any balls since they managed to electrify a decent portion of the main line in Queensland at 25kv AC, as well as a lot of the coal systems in the interior of the state.
Which brings me to the maddening state of the Inland Rail project. It's still a very good idea but in my eyes if you're building a new railway in the 2020's electrification is a must. And, of course, they've defected this criticism by saying "but what about mUh doUblE sTacKs?!!" Newsflash, you can absolutely do double stack freight trains with electric traction.
And thus, we have the virgin Australian Inland Rail whining that they can't have both double stacks and electrification, vs the Chad Indian Railways with their absolute units of electric double-stacked freight trains.
This 'boomer' is concerned about the already strained electrical grid and increasingly more strained state of taxpayer funds that have been flying out of the country at a Bullet Train speed since the current Administration took office.
What good are electric cars and trains everywhere if you can't power them most days for fear of crashing the grid? Fix that first! (Like should have been done when they first started noticing the problem back when I was a spring chicken.)
@@veganconservative1109 why not build more nuclear power plants similar to the one built at Vogtle in GA? That's what France did, thye just spam built more nuclear power plants.
Plus, demand electric companies to update the grid, and build more towers. Most of them were built in the 1930s and all need to be replaced. just look what happened in California, which had massive wildfires all because PG&E never bothered to upgrade their electric grid infrastructure.
I grew up living 5 minutes from the South Shore Line, I find it interesting that Amtrak wants to use the track. Since the South Shore is double tracking from Chicago to Michigan city.
Is it also the sams line that passes through Gary?
yes it goes through gary
A branch line here in Germany was recently electrified, they use EMUs with batteries onboard so only sections of the line had to be fitted with an overhead catenary, the rest of the route is run on battery power that is recharged in those wire-stretches (like larger stations along the line)
That should be implemented in the USA
Love it when the South Shore Line is mentioned in transit videos. I feel seen.
Same tho.
The Norwalk to Danbury (Connecticut) commuter line was electrified in the old New Haven Railroad days. For reasons unknown, the catenaries were since removed.
Living in the windy City, I look forward to the day rail is faster and/or more convenient than driving.
It's pretty convenient when it comes to Metra, at least in my opinion. I've only driven into the city from the suburbs once, and taking the train has been the faster option for me. I don't mind walking around, and the buses in the city are pretty inexpensive to use. I live in the suburbs, though, so I don't know what it's like to drive around there.
@@SergeantTeabag they need to make the cta reliable too
@@pakboimsal8498 I've heard that the cta has been ghosting passengers waiting for buses, which is crazy to me.
Assuming it was electrified and upgraded to at least higher speeds, I would love being able to take the Wolverine to Detroit to see the White Sox play the Tigers then return to Chicago right after the game
There is absolutely no reason Albany to NYC should not be electrified. Probably one of the busiest corridors in the country and could switch the metro north trains over to overhead as well. Maybe a joint Amtrak-MTA project could be completed to get this done. This route also needs alot of upgrades which could increase speed across the route as well. Also would avoid the switchover most trains have going into Penn. Would help if every platform at penn had both third rail and overhead. This would also be a perfect corridor for HSR, probably should be the first corridor considered by Amtrak when updating imo.
They would probably have to buy the line from CSX first, but they are currently in a 25 year lease with CSX.
@@MatthewMello to my understanding they at least own portions of the line north of Poughkeepsie. Whatever they don’t own they are responsible for all of the maintenance. I live on the west side of the river and most of csx freight is brought down my side as opposed to the east side (2 freight on the east and upwards of 20 freight train on the west) It should still be doable for them to upgrade as-long as Amtrak foots the bill.
@@John-jg4wp All traffic in and out of Oak Point yard goes on the 701/704 to and from Selkirk. That is the only way there unless you come from CT, for example, the Springfield Line. But that is a pain in the ass move as the swtiches in Springfield go the wrong way. That is why CSO backs in and out of West Springfield Yard. Anyways, I am way off point.
Going back in time to make the PRR finish electrifying the main line to Pittsburgh
Wasn't the PRR's plan originally to electrify from Harrisburg Pa to Chicago back in the 1920's or 1930's?
Another is the Lackawanna Cut-Off. I mean think about it, it's been pure irony that Scranton, the *ELECTRIC* city...doesn't have trains that are electrified. Let alone not having any train service since the early 50s!
Exactly, public services are meant to serve the public. That is why we aim to continue upgrading our Pyongyang Metro, trolleybuses, and railway network to bring them to their potential. Not to mention, I am the only leader in the world who regularly uses a train to get around. Something that was passed down from my grandpa and father
The trams in Chongjin needs to be upgraded.
Train service to Scranton ended in 1963, I used it regularly. The Post Office pulled the plug on the mail cars (nearly half the train) and without that revenue the near broke EL couldn't afford to run the nice train. There is a hotel and restaurant in the old Lackawanna station in Scranton and a nice bar in the old trainshed. Scranton does have steamtown and also a trolley line.
Indeed, every train I saw in DPRK was electric... there were loads of Soviet and Chinese diesel engines electrified in the 1990s for environmental reasons, e.g. the Kanghaenggun class. Glory to the Shining Star of the 21st century!
@@qingyangzhang6093 9,999 more of such comments and you might be able to feed your family with an added carrot to their weekly rice.
@@qingyangzhang6093 Aren't the Kanghaenggun class locomotives based on the Soviet M62 locomotives?
I would love to be involved in such electrification projects once I graduate college.
Me too
YES
Once in the 90s I accidentally ended up riding the Springfield Corridor because I was riding in the wrong car when a northbound train toward Boston split at New Haven. I remember the horrible part of getting home being the subsequent stretch from Springfield to Boston.
Wait so you're telling me that in the US you have miles of two-pronged tracks that aren't electrified? That's wild
I feel like more needs to said about Amtrak’s god awful modernization plan… the decision to purchase a fleet of ALC-42 locomotives is absolutely mind boggling and will ultimately hurt passenger service in the long run. The rest of the world has moved to both electric and diesel multiple units for passenger service… multiple units are so much more efficient and economical to operate. Amtrak’s decision to purchase more big ass diesel locomotives proves that Amtrak management is completely ignorant (or oblivious) of railroad standards in the rest of the world.
I live on the Virginia Services Corridor. Right now I think the biggest thing is that they are trying to triple track down the line a ways. rail traffic can get a bit congested at times.
The south shore is double tracking from Gary to Michigan city right now. New station at miller and Michigan city.
You mentioned the South Shore 😁
Made me smile.
Conclusion: (and I quote you)
"Just put up the goddamn wires!"
I would've really appreciated an example of the exorbitant spending on highway projects that you referenced in your "Cost" section
Thanks for this great video. Having said that, does Amtrak have any actual electrification projects at the time?
N.B.: it was exciting to hear you mention the Wolverine corridor. As a foriegn visitor (European), I chose the train to travel from Chicago to Detroit 2 years ago. Most people at the convention I was attending in Chicago reacted me like "Why don't you fly?" but I simly had no energy to waste to explain in length the benfits of railing instead of flying, especially on a distance of 400-500 km. They regarded me as a bit of a lunatic, a maverick at best (well, after all, those crazy Europeans are in the habit of traveling by train, so why not) 😆I honestly hope for the best for American rail. You used to be a great railroad nation, you can make it again!
As a rare counterexample to many of the long series of dumpster fires involving the freight rail carriers that you've discussed in your videos already, out here in NorCal, the Caltrain / JPBX is successfully working on electrifying one of the most important Union Pacific ROWs from San Jose to San Francisco. It will bring a major improvement to the timetable and energy efficiency as well as ability to eventually go in tunnels and connect to other transit services in SF, and we will have almost the entire metropolis ringed with good electric mass transit to replicate the path of every major freeway and bridge. Hopefully it's just one step in a process of bringing transit sanity from the northeast to the rest of the country.
8:59 Gorgeous shot. All of the scenes were amazing, really.
Just one point of clarification. Amtrak does not own the tracks from Poughkeepsie to Schenectady. They are still owned by CSX, but Amtrak has been leasing the section since 2012. The section is actually known as the Hudson Subdivision. By the terms of the lease, Amtrak is responsible for maintenance and capital responsibilities. But I'm not sure if that would complicate the electrification of the track.
I love how you blithely announce that this or that isn't that hard. The shit is never, ever easy.
Care to elaborate?
because it really isnt. people did this in the late 1800s here. using technology that is a far cry from what you have today.
It would be really cool if the entire LA metropolitan area had a metro system
We’re slowly getting there
The LA Metro seems to like building new lines down former streetcar and interurban right of ways
It definitely should. It was a city built on streetcars. It should become a transit oriented city again.
This would be very important also given how the 2028 Olympics would be a pain in the ass if the city remains fully carcentric by then.
@@ianhomerpura8937 Same with Chicago there really needs to be more CTA L lines
@@pakboimsal8498 preferably new lines that will connect suburbs with each other. Not all people want to pass through downtown.
@@ianhomerpura8937 well the cta is doing that but with BRT instead of New L lines
3:45 "This corridor serves... The Adirondack." A train that hasn't made its way north towards Plattsburgh and Montréal since the start of the pandemic. We've had NO service going to places like Ticonderoga or Westport for a good 2 years. And Amtrak has been silent on any details on when the Adirondack will make its way through... The Adirondacks. 🙁
Ask Joe Biden why he's still keeping the stupid vaccine mandate for foreigners. That's probably why that hasn't returned
The European models of the Cities Sprinters electric locos Amtrak uses can handle both AC and 1.5 kV DC, I wouldn’t be surprised if they can be refitted to handle running on the South Shore.
6:13 i like how the locomotives in the picture you chose are both AC only
They are both part of multi-system locomotive families, however.
Apart from Talgo’s offerings, Siemens has the Sprinter family, Bombardier (Now Alstom) had the TRAXX, and Alstom also has the Prima, all of which also have internally-powered (currently diesel) variants as well.
@@JohnGeorgeBauerBuis yes, i know. thanks to my job i'm very familiar with all of them.
@@JohnGeorgeBauerBuis you also seem to have some outdated information there, the siemens eurosprinter family hasn't been a thing anymore. it was replaced in 2010 (12 years ago!) by the vectron family in AC, DC, MS, DE and DM variants.
@@eftalanquest I got the impression that they were still popularly being called Sprinters even after the redesign, at least in part due to Amtrak’s model being officially called the ‘Amtrak Cities Sprinter’, although it is based on the updated platform.
Sweden has railway lines that only see three daily passenger trains in each direction but still are electrified. That’s as far as you can get from how it is in the US.
"Amtrak has not done any electricification projects since New Haven to Boston"
Keystone Corridor: "am I a joke to you?*
That line was already electrified by the PRR>
Keyword: "Since"
@@harrisonofcolorado8886 yeah, but I thought Amtrak re-electrified it in 2006
@@robk7266 It was never not electrified because SEPTA was running electric trains on it all along (at least as far as Thorndale), but Amtrak ran (mostly? exclusively?) diesels west of Philly from the late '80s until they finished upgrading the grid in 2006.
@@de-fault_de-fault Oh. My bad
Some issues electrifying the Wolverine route is Amtrak/MiDOT share equipment with other Amtrak Midwest routes out of Chicogo and the other Michigan Amtrak routes. It would be more money but maybe more effective for those states to work on electrification together and electrify routes like all 3 Amtrak Michigan routes, Chicago to St Louis, and Chicago to Milwaukee. It would be great to eventually see Chicago and Detroit connected to a Windsor-Toronto-Montreal NEC-style, high speed, electric corridor.
chicago to peroia eventually though to st louis would be a really good electric cordor. also would recommend the hawathin route as that already as a shit ton of demand. and honestly if we fully electrified the route taking advantage of the south shore line for the empire builder, we could have 4 to 8 trains a day between new york and chicago. thats alot of air traffic removed. and alot of local service to the comunitys along the route.
You mean the lake shore limited
One point you made is that public transit doesn't have to be profitable, which is debatable at best, one thing I think you should've mentioned is that the Northeast Corridor IS profitable for Amtrak, being their only profitable route thus far, so even if public transit DID need to make a profit, Amtrak's only profitable line IS electrified, which is why the CEO from Delta INCREASED services on the Northeast Corridor, and ordered new electric trainsets from Alstom, proving that electrifying passenger services can make them more profitable.
And, while I think these are feasible, I don't think they're gonna be possible. HOWEVER, the reasons for this have NOTHING to do with the railway technology itself. With current technologies, the only sections of railways that cannot be electrified with overhead lines are container ports and rolling stock maintenance facilities, since cranes are needed for operation.
The reason electrification is impossible in the US has nothing to do with technology being inadequate. The reason is more due to the influence of oil companies. Oil company CEOs are one of, it not, the most profitable corporations in the US, and supply large sums to political campaigns. The thought of politicians electrifying railways, and, in turn, going against these CEOs' wishes is ridiculous. This will almost certainly never happen so long as oil CEOs provide politicians for their campaigns. And, in the event a freight railroad would want to electrify, the oil CEOs could simply bribe the government into charging higher electrification taxes, which could easily wipe out any cost benefit electrification would bring.
You brought up the SBB, and, while I can't argue that it IS one of, if not the best rail network out there, the reason Switzerland's railways were electrified at all was due to coal shortages, and the fact that Switzerland has no significant fossil fuel reserves, so Swiss oil CEOs aren't really a thing, meaning that electrification for both the railway and politicians was a no-brainer, greedy or not.
So, is electrification technologically feasible? Yes. Does it have a good chance at ACTUALLY being done? No.
One way to make railways insanely profitable is through real estate. The six JR Group companies are doing that by massive upgrades and transforming the entire area around their railway stations into large transit oriented development all within walking distance from the station. Condominiums, schools, hotels, offices, shopping malls, groceries, convention centers, subway lines, bus and taxi terminals - all of them converge around the main railway stations.
However, that would require massive changes to zoning codes across the US. If there is a great time to fight and convince the NIMBYs, it is now.
Also, I suppose the nuclear lobby is powerful enough to counter the oil lobby? Given how the new reactors at Vogtle are about to be completed, the US should build more of those 3rd generation reactors.
@@ianhomerpura8937 JR Group is incredibly profitable before real estate. That is very good icing in the cake though.
@@connorcrowley1 that is partly because, after the 1923 earthquake, local governments across Japan, with encouragement from the national level, deliberately designed city layouts so that railways stations will be the focal point of urban development.
@@ianhomerpura8937 I don't think nuclear reactors are going to be a match for oil lobbyists, unfortunately. The reason nuclear power is so good is likely the reason it won't be able to take down the oil industry: It's energy efficient. Not to mention, oil is used in WAY more things than just fuel. Plastics, gum, golf balls, lipsticks, chapsticks, dentures, toothpaste, guitar strings, perfume, cologne, deodorant, fishing lures, just to name a few, while uranium and radium's only other use, besides for reactors is for cancer treatment.
Also, oil is used for, and I think this is very telling: Tires, asphalt, antifreeze and cameras. Now, what is one thing that all four of these have in common? They're used in ROADS! And what replaced trains in the US? Roads! Coincidence? I THINK NOT! Roads use FAR more oil than their railway counterparts! So, oil companies would profit WAY more from a road-based transportation system than a rail-based one as a result of how much oil is needed to keep a road-based transportation system running.
I like how you mentioned JR, though, as... JR is quite unique. It's kinda the cross between a nationalized and privatized railway network. Kind of like Amtrak, except, unlike Amtrak, JR own ALL of the infrastructure it uses. heck, it even owns the land AROUND the tracks! They also work with the Japanese government, who happily subsidizes them in return for great service, and they can veto prices that they think are too high. Not to mention, Japan electrified a lot of its railways because of the Japanese tradition of self-reliance.
it'd be nice to see Metrolink lines get electrified. Rebuild the Piru to Saugus line and put an electrified commuter on it out to Ventura.
Very good video! The beautiful Michigan Central Station is being fully restored in Detroit. There was some talk about bringing trains back into it but I fear this is just another tragically missed opportunity and Amtrak in Detroit will continue to use the ugly "Amshack". Keep up the great work, my friend!
The problem with using the MC station is that to continue on to Pontiac would require either a backup move or switching ends. Which while not the biggest hassle, I doubt they'll do it.
@@hawkeyetherailfan Before they started to remodel MC several tracks that fed into the mainline at both ends along with butterfly structures. These have all been removed. What could be done is a smaller structure adjacent to the mainline tracks or perhaps one or two new tracks adjacent to the main line constructed.
@@louislamonte334 My idea was to build a line that curved northeast and went under Huntington Place then went down the middle of Jefferson and turned northwest onto the original Grand Trunk line.
@@hawkeyetherailfan Well, that would be a great possibility as well. Until Detroit and so many other places gets rid of the nearly endemic auto obsession all of this is going to be a really hard sell!
@@louislamonte334 What's interesting to note is that Detroit and the State are going to remove the I-375 freeway, the eastern end is at Jefferson, and convert into it into a pedestrian friendly boulevard. So while giving GM doorstep heavy rail service might not be feasible, a Detroit with less cars is.
I've always felt the Pacific Surfliner route should be overhauled and electrified as a more useful and popular alternative to the HSR project. Elevate and reinforce the tracks along the ocean to avoit them getting washed out, remove grade crossings, and double and even triple the track along the route to allow for two way and freight traffic.
I'm so glad you brought up the South Shore Line right of way. That's such a huge opportunity and would be a very wise move for Amtrak!
1) Empire Line: there is already third rail electrification from NYC to Croton-Harmon. Amtrak is a low user of this line, with the MTA/Hudson Line being 90% of the trains (NYC to Poughkeepsie). Don't forget that there are still freight trains on this line (east side of the Hudson River. The west side tracks are only freight, passenger service having been abandoned.)
2) Caltrain electrification is costing $47 million per mile. Catenary alone is $12 million per mile. Signalling system upgrades, transformer/utility/electrical feeds, etc add up.
I’m a little late to this, but I live along the Hartford Line. I don’t know why it’s not electrified, or why the hell no one talks about it. I didn’t know it existed until 6 months ago and it’s amazing. I wholeheartedly think if they talked about it more and electrified it, it’d be huge for this area. Don’t they have some option that can exercise to build more M8s and then just use that on the line?
25kVac and 1.5kVdc can coexist in the same system, dual tension engines are made in France for this two electrifications for decades, and with Alstom and Siemens in the US, both of them know how to build such engines
Amtrak doesn't own the tracks from Poughkeepsie and Schenectady, but has a long term lease from CSX. They would still need to coordinate with CSX. Sure it would be easier than on ROW they don't have a lease, but it's not as easy as on tracks they own. And the Metro-North area that is currently electrified with 3rd rail it is different 3rd rail from what Amtrak uses making it more complicated.
It's worth noting that the M8s also have a solution for the third rail disparity. (The M9s have the same type of third rail shoe as the M8s, though they can't use overhead wires.)
I’m glad I’m not the only one who things the Springfield to Mew Haven line should be electrified
You forgot the Lackawanna Cutoff! NJTransit owns most of that line. It's already electrified to Great Notch.
Oh my god. You pronounced “Schenectady” correctly!!!! I love your content! And glad to see one of the RARE Schenectady shout outs. I’m like a 10 minute walk from the Schenectady Amtrak. I’ll buy you a beer if you’re ever in town haha.
Empire is a bit trickier than you mention, I think. MetroNorth isn't electrified past Croton-on-Hudson. Also, the MetroNorth electrification is 3rd rail, while I think Amtrak's electric rolling stock is overhead, so either you'd need to add overhead to some of the busiest rail infra in the country, or get new rolling stock for Amtrak. Not saying they couldn't or shouldn't do it, just that it's not basically shovel ready in a week.
They could get locomotives (or, even better, EMUs) with the ability to use overhead wires and third rail (the former for service south of Croton-on-Hudson, the latter for service north of there). That's what I'd do. Hell, I've actually thought of using M8s for express service to/from Poughkeepsie under the assumption of electrification. Of course, that would cause problems for the other EMUs...
@@sonicboy678 if they're gonna electrify past Croton, they should just do 3rd rail. I guess they could use the rolling stock from the New Haven line, but it seems like it would be much easier to reduce the variety of rolling stock on the Hudson line rather than switching out one kind of variance for another. And yeah, Amtrak could use the same multimodal trains MNR uses on the New Haven line, but that would be a whole new procurement and maintenance channel for them, which they'd probably rather avoid for cost and complexity reasons.
@@16randomcharacters It would be better not to use it. Aside from the significantly lower demand north of Peekskill (and even then, demand north of _Tarrytown_ is not as good as demand south of there, particularly with how sparsely populated most areas north of Tarrytown are), third rail can't reasonably handle speeds in excess of 100 mph.
@@sonicboy678 running at or above 100MPH is not and will never be something MNR has to worry about. :-) Even for the stretches where MNR could get up to a speed like that, for instance the expresses that run straight to Croton, they are interspersed among trains with more local levels of service, so they'd be stuck behind them. Same holds for any Amtrak service running on those routes unless they ran way outside of peak hours, but I don't think people are looking to leave for Albany at like 1:45AM. Also, as someone who grew up in Ossining, even if the statistics are low on ridership, I can tell you those trains are still often pretty packed. That corridor must be pretty close to saturation, especially during peak hours.
And they would have to buy the line from CSX first probably.
When I served in the US Navy, going to Europe was a huge EYE OPENER! You could take trains or buses almost everywhere. For example, in Naples, Italy, you could take a train (Circumvesuviana Line) from Piazza Garibaldi to the Herculaneum ruins; the train drops you off RIGHT THERE! You walk from the stop, you're in the ancient ruins. Or, you can continue to the line's end to Sorrento, home of the black sand beach and the elevator in the cliff.
I don't know if they were there yet when you were in Italy but there is now extensive HSR connecting a lot of the country.
@@emjayay I don't know how much HSR was in Italy back in 1984 when I was there, but my Navy buddy and I enjoyed a high speed train between Naples and Rome! It was a nice train too. We had a table between our seats, and we played cards much of the way up. Thanks to that high speed train, we were able to visit Rome, do some sight seeing, and return-all in the same day... :)
I remember the last video on electrification mentioned the USSR
If the Russians can do it, Americans can do it
Americans don't like to do dirty communist activities
I really find it funny the more I've read/heard about how railroads are run, is that everybody that runs them seemingly would be happier to do...anything else
I really hope that with hybrid diesel caternary equipment, Amtrak will have more excuse to electrify lines even if partially. They need to upgrade these lines!
One major problem with electrifying the Pacific Surfliner is that the track bed is unstable.
I would absolutely LOVE to take a train from NYC to Montreal or Vermont, I think they would be profitable too and that would speak their language
Those both exist...though currently the train to Montreal has not been restarted as of yet.
@@zaklex3165 electrified though, something comparable to EU intercity rail trips, thats the best we got
@@FalconsEye58094 You left out the part of being electrified...which is a separate issue from being able to take the train between NYC and Montreal or Vermont(existing services, just not electrified, also, you'll probably never get electrification in Canada, even though they have abundant hydropower).