Stranded In The Skies Over Germany | Swiss International Airlines Flight 850
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 3 апр 2022
- Donations are never expected but appreciated: paypal.me/miniaircrash
Join My Discord: / discord
Saab Image: Aero Icarus from Zürich, Switzerland - 52bt - Crossair Saab 2000; HB-IZY@ZRH;27.02.1999
Swiss International Air Lines Flight 850 was an international scheduled passenger flight from Basle, Switzerland, to Hamburg, Germany. On 10 July 2002, the flight was unable to land at Fuhlsbüttel Airport due to weather. Attempts were made to divert to other airports at Berlin and Eberswalde before the crew decided to land at Werneuchen. On landing, the aircraft struck an earth bank which ripped off all three undercarriage legs, and came to rest on its belly with an engine on fire. One of the sixteen passengers suffered minor injuries. The aircraft was written off.
The investigation into the accident by the German Federal Bureau of Aircraft Accident Investigation (BFU) took over eight years to complete. It raised a number of issues, including poor crew resource management, insufficient weather information being passed to the crew of Flight 850 and faulty runway markings at Werneuchen Airfield, where the runway had been reduced in length from 2,400 metres (7,900 ft) to 1,500 metres (4,900 ft), but the runway markings had not been altered to reflect this.
Flight 850 was originally scheduled to be operated by an Embraer 145 aircraft. Due to the non-availability of the Embraer 145, a Saab 2000 was substituted, and the briefing for the flight was extended by 15 minutes.[4] Actual departure was at 14:55 UTC, 10 minutes behind schedule.[5] It carried four crew and 16 passengers. Weather reports indicated a line of thunderstorms, winds up to 45 knots (83 km/h) could be expected at Fuhlsbüttel and the designated alternatives of Hannover and Bremen. A number of SIGMETs were issued about an hour before the flight departed Basel, but the flight crew did not receive these. The SIGMETs indicated a front was developing with thunderstorms reaching FL380 in the Bremen area. The Terminal Aerodrome Forecast for Fuhlsbüttel Airport, Hamburg valid from 13:00 to 22:00 was: TAF EDDH 101200Z 101322 31010KT 9999 FEW025 TEMPO 1320 29020G40KT 3000 TSRA BKN013CB Tempo 1922 4000 RA BKN014.[4][6]
Runway 23 was the active runway at Fuhlsbüttel. On approach to land, the flight encountered severe turbulence due to a thunderstorm and the crew aborted the approach as the aircraft descended through 3,300 feet (1,000 m). It was later established that a derecho had formed.[7] Winds of 81 knots (150 km/h) were recorded, and seven people were killed in the Berlin area.[8] The storm was described as the worst summer storm in 50 years in Berlin.[9] The crew decided to hold while they assessed their alternatives. The designated alternative airport was Bremen Airport, some 55 nautical miles (102 km) to the south-west. To reach Bremen would have meant flying through the frontal system. Another aircraft successfully landed on Runway 33 at Hamburg, reporting strong winds. The crew of Flight 850 declined to attempt a landing on Runway 23, and requested a diversion to Langenhagen Airport, Hannover. Air Traffic Control (ATC) did not suggest any other alternatives, nor were they requested by the crew.[7]
En route, the frontal system prevented the crew from turning towards Hannover. A decision was made to divert to Tegel Airport, Berlin. The Automatic Terminal Information Service at Tegel stated that the weather there was clear and no significant change was expected. Approaching Tegel's Runway 08L, the crew requested priority handling, stating that they had fuel for 40 minutes flight. On approach, severe turbulence was again encountered due to the frontal system having reached Berlin. The approach was abandoned and the crew requested an alternate airfield from ATC. Eberswalde Airfield was suggested and accepted by the crew, who stated "We'll take anything at this point". On hearing this remark, ATC treated the aircraft's situation as an emergency. En route to Eberswalde, thunderstorms were observed and alternates were sought from ATC.[7]
Hamburg ATC then offered Neubrandenburg Airport, which was rejected by the crew of Flight 850 on receiving the weather information. Werneuchen Airfield was then offered, which was 20 nautical miles (37 km) away and offered a runway 1,500 metres (4,900 ft) long. Werneuchen was accepted by the crew. ATC managed to contact the chairman of the flying club based at Werneuchen. He stated that the runway surface was 2,400 metres (7,900 ft) long, but an earth bank stretched across the runway leaving 1,500 metres (4,900 ft) available. Landing on Runway 08 meant that the first part of the runway fell before the earth bank. Almost an hour after aborting the 
Наука
Many of your videos are sad, but this one is a real Saab story.
*Get out*
I love a good Punny comment! : )
*Angry thumb up*
I hate it but I‘ll have to give you a like for that
*slow clap*
I absolutely love these smaller accidents you find where it's perilous, but it doesn't end in a bunch of people dying horrifically. good stuff!
I'm with u. I don't get why people want to see people die! They must be psychotic
Yea I think 99% of us like hearing about smaller, even non lethal events. I'm sure there's only 1% of people sending him seething emails Everytime he puts a video out and there aren't like 700 dead and you got pieces of bodies sliding down the side of a mountain in South America somewhere! 👍
@@oxcart4172 I think it’s more aviation enthusiasts that find these interesting. I find incidents and near misses more interesting than massive fatal crashes!
re enactments aviation sites/youtubers are running out of fatal accidents apparently.. so they have to depict less lethal ones.. weeee
@@SinergiaAlUnisono well, I'm into it. people managing to _just barely_ stop a bunch of people from getting turned into deviled ham thanks to skill, bravery, and good crew resource management is a hell of a lot better than the devastation that goes with the alternative 🤷
If they didn't load that extra fuel, this could absolutely could have ended up worse. I would not fancy their chances with an off-field engine-out landing in bad weather.
The extra fuel gave them a false sense of security, thus mismanaged their time. They had a duty to get All of the weather on their route plus alternative airport prior the departing. Though there is minor blame on controllers, the pilots were in command. it was their decision, solely theirs. They had the duty to know the maps. Instead, the relied on someone else to advise them of what to do. Their complacency almost got them & their pax killed.
They done a Good job. Noone was hurt
They would have been fine. Carrying extra fuel actually put them more at risk because if they would have crashed the airplane would have been consumed by fire.
The practice of shortening runways with obstructions needs to be banned. Displacing the threshold is one thing, but putting something in the way that may end up injuring or killing someone is unacceptable.
Why do they even do that? Just why?
Im not sure but Germany has laws and regulations for everything. Maybe shortening is cheaper for tax, safety and other reasons.
whoever decided to put that mud wall should at least have to pay for the plane.
This was heatedly discussed in the German aviation community. Some even argued in favour of that wall saying that with a displaced threshold it is as if the hard surface before it should be regarded as fields and all landings should take this into account placing the blame firmly in the pilots' court.
I am also of the opinion that available infrastructure must be usable in its complete length in a safe manner regardless of legal issues.
This story still makes me angry over two decades after it happened.
@@hyukleberry5567 It was done to stop people from doing drag races on that runway.
No 60-second intro, no useless data to stretch out the video to 10 minutes, no begging to hit the subscribe button, just information provided in a quick and clearly defined manner. How nice! Great job.
To be honest I can't really blame the pilots all that much, they were lost in a storm, lacked weather awareness due to lack of information and were doing what they were taught. ATC should've told them plainly that there was a wall across the runway and the markings need to be repainted but in the end I'm just glad everyone made it and I bet pilots, passengers and investigators feel the same.
There were several communication failures here.
@@briant7265 and no clear strategy but an adventerous and risky behavour of the crew. Crossair had other (and fatal) accidents bec of aggressive expanding with the result of 'youngsters' and unexperienced pilots got into their cockpits. The swiss regulator, FOCA, hasn't done its job for proper supervising the airline.
@@ursrupp5869 Just about all of the comm failures were in getting information TO the pilots.
@@briant7265 the pilots did nothing wrong. The mistakes if you really want to blame someone were the atc but even that would be a mental gymnastic. You really need more training in atc communication or stfu.
When pilots are completely stuck for options, they'll put down their planes just about anywhere that's flat and level. The Gimli Glider famously touched down on a disused military airfield that had been converted to a dragstrip, TACA 110 landed on a grass levee outside New Orleans after losing power in both engines, and a Southwest DC-9 once landed on a freeway after its engines were taken out by hail. Sadly, that last one clipped a gas station and the whole thing went up in flames. These pilots had to make a call, they needed to find solid ground before it found them, and considering everyone walked away, they made the best of a bad situation.
Southern airways DC9 tried to land on a two lane country road, not a freeway. hit a gas station along the way. Ended up in a front yard with numerous deaths.
Agree, those are some difficult flights. The Gimli story, I’m still trying to imagine being at the strip and suddenly a silent airliner is on short final to a gathering of folks on the “closed” runway.
I think this should be more common but from what i've seen, an airport really is, especially for commercial traffic their first through 30th options.
Even better Taca 110 took off from that levee after repairs!
That 737 ( nickname grasshoper) was very recent retired after a long eventless workinglive.
The Gimli Glider also had also a long eventless workinglive till recent.
And let's not forget the aircraft that used the Hudson River as it's landing strip...
Why the hell is there a "mud wall" on a runway... wtf.
Exactly! I think we should be told!😄
I'd also like to know why a mud wall is built across a runway.
Yeah, thats the biggest mystery in this entire video. Also why ATC did not tell pilots directly about it
Because some leftists decided that.
According to german wikipedia the wall was built because the runway was often used for illegal race events.
EDIT: Well it seems it isn't really closed but shortened to 1499 meters in the east for landing.
Gotta love the Swiss. They prepared with extra fuel. If this was a South American airline, it would have been an air crash investigation.
An "X" means the whole runway is closed. Large arrows, leading up to the new threshold needed to be there.
It's reminded me of the disaster when the pilots of an airliner mistook the runway they were on and as they hurtled on towards their takeoff roll, saw the runway was blocked by a load of construction machinery, with no way of avoiding disaster.
This reminds me quite a bit of the Avianca Flight 52 case, where the jet ran out of gas while in a holding pattern over NYC. That situation was escalated by swamped ATC and the pilots constantly being told to wait to land even though they had exhausted all their fuel, which resulted in tragic consequences. I'm very grateful that this plane landed safely and everyone got out safely.
Avianca 52 was a mistake by the pilots in not declaring an emergency.
@@V8King770 true. At some point in time, you have declare the emergency and land regardless of ATC. Their job will then be to re-route other traffic, but that is what they are there for. The pilots would have had many questions to answer, but they would have saved the passengers entrusted to them.
@@V8King770 Same with this flight … if you are tapping into reserve fuel that is at least worth a PAN-PAN, and given the weather troubles, they really should have called an emergency no later than at that point to get their bird down. You do not declare emergencies lightly, but you should call them before it is too late.
What’s the worst case? You are in an iffy situation …
a) you declare an emergency and all turns out fine and you may have to explain that the situation was indeed iffy …
b) everybody dies, … and so does everyone in the orphanage and the hospital … never mind the giant gas and oil tanks and the ammunition and explosives dump …
… but at least nobody will ask you personally why you did not declare an emergency
@@V8King770 When English is not the first language of the guys in the cockpit and the syntax gets mangled.
I remember that storm well, we all do here in Berlin and the surrounding area. To be frank, I don’t think the forecasters and traffic police took it seriously enough beforehand - in this part of the world we often get humid weather broken by an evening thunderstorm, everyone thought this would just be another one. But the scale of it was that much more violent than normal. I was so worried about a tree in the garden coming down on the house that I took the kids down to the basement for the night. Two kids were killed by a falling tree nearby at an event that had also essentially ignored the storm warnings - since then the school board here has been ultra cautious about sending kids home from school early if a storm is forecast. Basically, everyone was just too naive about the dangers of a summer storm. I could imagine that was the case at airports and for airlines too: a ‚yeah yeah, it’s just another storm‘ kind of complacency.
Hmm. I wonder if y'all will start having tornadoes like we do here in the states.
@@grmpEqweer We have plenty of them every year. Up to 50-100 confirmed, hundreds more unconfirmed. Some strong, most of them weak. Every now and then a very strong tornado occurs. Problem is: Many Germans still believe that tornadoes only occur in the states. They also believe tornadoes are something new (which is wrong) connected to climate change (which is also wrong, numbers are not rising although more and more people have smartphones to record footage). In 1999 weather services worked completely different than they do nowadays. Weather radar was very basic.
@@grmpEqweer We actually have a few small tornadoes every so often, but on a much smaller scale and with only short paths.
@@arnegrunheid7106
Ah, okay. We have the little ones around here. The big honkers occur north of here.
We just get hurricanes instead. 😬
I was convinced this would end with total hull loss and 100% fatalities.
As someone who grew up in Lübeck and recently moved to Hamburg, this is a crazy story I had never heard of before! So happy that everyone walked away.
Especially strange when you take into account that Lübeck has a CTR and one of the widest runways in Germany, providing lots of space for bad weather landing
I visited my son in Hamburg and we visited Lubeck! Of course we bought marzipan. Lovely town. We enjoyed it.
Just remember the old adage: If it bleeds, it leads [on the news]. You haven't heard of it because there was bleeding for leading!
Habe auch noch nie davon gehört.
Happy Swiss noises. Nice that you cover this relatively unknown accident.
One small correction. As far as I'm aware, the pilot said, the runway was longer than Berne, not Bremen.
I'm just trying to understand this situation. Why the hell was there a mud wall built across the runway? It just seems like an odd thing to do even if that part of the runway before the wall is closed.
Seems more than odd, seems stupid.
They build that mud walls to stop people racing on the runway at night
Probably to stop Lancasters landing on it!
@@pet4916 - a farmer with a shotgun and a sign at runway saying "Open Season" would have had the same effect.
@@pet4916 thank you! That makes total sense to me. Sometimes you got to do things to stop the crazies.
Sometimes pilots just have to make a decision and get the damn thing down regardless. Were there other planes in similar circumstances?I just love his voice, so expressive. Thank you for the stories, great job
As the saying goes, any landing you can walk away from is a good one; any landing where you can fly the plane again afterwards is a great one.
I mean sure the pilots really should have come up with a more appropriate list of alternates given the storm over Germany that day, but after the shit hit the fan I don't think they did too bad.
In my humble opinion, I believe that hitting a different type of wall due to fuel exhaustion would have been a lot worst than hitting a mud and grass wall as in this case, so they luck out.
Pilots were amzing.. I just can imagine the pressure in cockpit.. Another great vid.
This was all pilot error. I’m sure they were fired.
Sitting in my couch i completely agree..
@@VLove-CFII haha okay Ms. Perfect. I'm sure you'd have done a better job
11:46 hell no, if I were flying, I would have thought it was a normal runway!
I think at 3:45 the arrows are swapped. Eberswalde is where the arrow for Tegel is pointing and Tegel is where the arrow for Eberswalde is pointing.
yeah, they're swapped. Tegel is in Berlin, Eberswalde is up north-east in Brandenburg
Quite a feat of airmanship landing with no ils atc or lighting on an unfamiliar airport..I dont suppose their boss saw it that way
They might have done better by diverting to the other airport but I don't blame them for making a determination to get that plane on the ground, and when the storm came in with gale force winds, I'm sure the passengers were glad too. True, they lost the landing gear on the mud wall but they never left the runway: pretty good steering 🙂 passengers happy to be alive. All is well that ends well.
The place the landed was basically their 5th choice
@@HappyBeezerStudios, thank you for correcting me.
Over a lifetime of airline flying I’ve been in somewhat similar situations with very bad weather systems with plenty of embedded thunderstorms, or with things like widespread unforecast fog.
However it is NEVER wise to divert to another airport, and then be committed due low fuel, unless you absolutely know that the diversion airport is 100% ok. Even solid thunderstorms will usually give you a break at some point.
Also for example with fog at an airport with an ILS, you’ll 99.999% of the time land safely even in very thick fog by just “busting” the minima. However in a similar situation, diverting to an airport without an ILS and then finding fog there means that you’re in extremely serious trouble. A Virgin Australia 737 did that some years ago, and were then incredibly lucky to survive the landing without aircraft damage- or much worse.
That outcome could obviously have actually been much worse for the guys in the Saab. It sounds like they were very close to losing engines from fuel starvation, even before they landed.
@Daniel Broadbridge I don’t recall a heck of a lot though we certainly knew all about it in the industry at the time. They were very lucky- saved by an accurate map picture in front of them of course thanks to GPS.
Wild guess: I’d say maybe 2009 “ish”, and diverted from somewhere with an ILS (maybe Melbourne??) due fog or low cloud to somewhere which had only an RNAV approach, only to then have fog there as well.
I would bust an ILS minima every time rather than divert to an airport with NO precision approach and with poor weather close to, or possibly even below minima.
I dare say there would certainly be record of the Virgin incident somewhere buried in ATSB incident files.
@Daniel Broadbridge There is a video somewhere on YT about it, the recordings are a bit chilling to put it mildly
Wow, pretty cool. It's good to learn from all kinds of accidents, but it's always glad to hear a story where people lived. :)
Maybe it's because I'm not a hardcore airplane enthusiast, but I can't recall hearing of a plane trying this many airports before. At least they didn't stay at their first option, without continued trying to find a better airport they could safely land at, and it sounded as if it hadn't been for that low mud wall, they would've had a completely normal landing.
By the way, is there a scenario in pilot training which includes getting chased around a whole country by a really bad thunderstorm?
No, it is absolutely not normal. But it is understandable. I remember that storm back then, that was Lothar and it was really really bad. The strong winds blew away the roof of the school my parents worked at. We weren't allowed outside due to the danger of being killed by debris carried by the wind, which is probably what happened to the 7 people who passed that were mentioned in the video. It was an exceptional situation.
Surprise hurricane-force winds are a surprise. 😬 At least with actual hurricanes, we get enough warning to usually seek shelter (and clear out the grocery stores)
You'd think the plane would outrun the weather, going 500 mph, instead of 30-50 mph (typical speed of storm movement). This is a sad story, it makes me want to Saab. :(
@@thatguyalex2835 Lothar moved at 120mph and was all over europe, at the time it was worse in germany than in switzerland so they flew into the weather, it was too late to turn around at the point where they realized that they were surrounded. Lothar was terrifying.
@@EvanBear The storm was powerful enough to have a name. Wow... Scary stuff
Awesome as always! Keep up the great work!
Those guys did their very best. Under horrible circumstances they got their bird on the deck with no loss of life. Good for them I say.
100% agree
Another excellently made video MACI!
Man I love these videos, keep them coming please!!! I have been watching for around a year now and I love the consistency. And these are always very specific. Could you parhaps try to find more about military-involved crashes or accidents? Also, I think that most possible mistakes made by the pilots are totally justified, they were stressed on fuel and didn't know what their options were for most of the time. I think that their ability to see the landing obstruction would have been near if not null in the coming storm. - edit, your channel deserves so dang much more attention.
Hey a small single engine plane crashed in my town this morning( everyone lived but pilot was minor injuries) . Manville NJ. The FAA is investigating. Would be super cool if you did a video on it after the report. Love ur videos !
I think it would be interesting to see some general aviation incidents too. They may not be as grand as commercial airline incidents, but the lessons we can learn from them would be closer to home.
I enjoy watching each and every single video since they are around 10min and we'll written. Keep up the good work Buddy. 😍
A knee jerk reaction is that they shouldn’t have left the circuit at Hamburg if other aircraft were landing there after their missed approach. It also seems apparent that there wasn’t a “big picture” guidance to the crew as to the location and movement of the line of cells moving across the country.
Yeah, surprised my as well. After they went halfway to Berlin and heard that the airport wasn't working out, why not turn around and try Hamburg again. Or any other of the old airports and fields in the region.
I simply cannot get enough of your channel!! I often refresh the notification page repeatedly until I see a video of yours pop up. Every aspect of these videos is perfect! The extensive information, pronunciation, video length, everything!! I found your channel maybe two months ago and I’ve basically watched every video in that time. You should consider starting an Instagram account, maybe for some behind the scenes content and it would definitely help channel traction. Also I absolutely understand if the work load would be too much but just wondering if you may consider 2 uploads a week at some point, these videos are just that good that it feels like forever till the next one lol, keep it up! So glad I found this channel!
Great video 👍
So pleased they all made it ⛑
A good landing is one you walk away from. A great landing is when you can reuse the plane
Ryanair begs to differ... bumpy af
From my experience in KSP I can completely support this interperations
This sounds to me like the investigators just needed to shoehorn in some human element to the cause to protect public confidence in flight. Really seems like about as cut and dry of an example of pure bad luck dooming a flight as is possible.
The report's obligated to point out all possibilities that could have prevented the accident. But I agree this was mostly a case of bad luck.
Great video as always
That flight route! Looks like my attempts at an etch a sketch as a child.
Thank you.
Ah, yes, the perfect storm all right. As a professional pilots for 41+ years, 17000+ hours, having flown to about 450 airports in about 85 countries, I have to say, this could have easily ended up worse than it did. I do not fault the pilots much for this one.
The folk who built a wall over a perfectly usable runway deserve much of the blame for this
Hi hi. Very nice vid! Thank you for the great content.
Oh wow, I am from Hamburg, now living near Basel so this hits home. The weather sounds like our typical "summers"... glad everyone survived. North German weather really compensates for the fact that Hamburg is the most beautiful city on the planet ^^
Great narration.
Greetings from Germany. That was a truly awful storm! The Berlin Fire Brigade had one of its worst days in decades. It was known as "Orkan Anita" in Germany. The storm isn't particularly well remembered because it was overshadowed by a catastrophic flood that struck the country just one month later.
Considering their lack of CRM training, weather information and ATC assistance I think a slightly rough landing was a great outcome!
Good job!!!! 👌👍👏👏
This definitely could have ended much worse! It looks like the plane could be fixed, but the fact that everyone survived is is really all that matters! It's hard to assign blame, it's a little bit of everything that caused this. It's awesome to see your videos where everyone survives! Great video!!
Also small airfields should be forced to stick to standard rules and regulations. If the crosses of the airfield have worn out, then they need to be repainted. It's a non-profit flying club, so some club member should have grabbed the paint bucket on a beautiful Saturday morning and just repaint the crosses. How long does this take? 1 hour? 2 hours? It's like always when you're part of a club: The club members need to maintain the infrastructure (or pay some professional to do it), and proper markings are part of this infrastructure imho.
@fr89k Should your house be required to adhere to the commercial building code? Should your home kitchen require periodic inspections by the health department just like restaurants? Should a small pleasure boat be subject to the same regulations as an ocean liner? Should an Ultralight aircraft require triple redundant systems, TCAS, Ice protection, inertial navigation, etc? Think about what you're suggesting. This is a small airport for ultralights run by a flying club, they likely get zero if any funding from taxpayers unlike large airports.
Maybe my previous comment was harsh but think about it this way: you wouldn't walk into a small country medical clinic and expect it to have a level 1 trauma center, MRI, neurosurgeon on call, and a burn unit.
@@toddsmith8608 We are talking about some crosses painted across the unusable part of the runway. And yes: In my home kitchen, I expect a certain minimum safety standard, such as no open wires, etc...
Germany at a size smaller then the US-state of Montana has 123 Airports/Airfields with an asphalt or concrete runway of at least 5.000 feet (1.524m), which would have been perfectly fine for the Saab. 38 of them are regular commercial airports. Unbelievable, that it was so hard to find a landing spot.
Oh it could have been so much worse. If not for that little bump in the runway and the small matter of tearing off the running gear, this was a fairytale ending. Loved it. Truly miraculous !:-) 🙏
Ultimately, all that matters is that no lives were lost, the rest is a matter for investigators and insurance companies.
We found ourselves in a very similar position during my time flying for r the UN in the Congo. We had the choice ultimately of putting the aircraft down on to a mudbank on and then into the Ubenge river, or pushing through a thunderstorm cell over the rainforest, we opted for the cell, nearly pulled us apart then down onto a dirt strip with zero on one fuel gauge.. 10 min flying on the other.. after a 3 1/2 hr flight...
What was the purpose of the mud wall? There will always be a slight risk an aircraft may have an emergency and need to use it
Following German reunification in 1990, people used that runway for illegal car races. After an incident at one of those races, police decided to make the runway unusable by having that mud wall installed.
It was designed as a (temporary) safety feature.
As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions...
Nowadays, those car races are taking place again, in a legal and controlled fashion. The event is known as "Race @ Airport Werneuchen", and is organised by the "MSC Race at Airport" club.
nothing is as permanent as a temporary solution
I remember that day because 10/7 is my birthday and we arrived in Berlin that morning from Poland and there was a crazy storm in the city that night
thanx
I totally could see myself in the same situation taking the same decisions and ending up in some field. Good luck trying to outrun a storm with a turboprop.
Then don’t fly. I am a pilot and I never would have departed without a complete meteorological report and picture in my head of the current and forecasted weather. If I did chose to go I would have tried to land on the alternate runway at the first airport. I would then have checked weather at my alternate. If I decided to go to the alternate and the weather was bad, we would have gone home or headed that way collecting weather data from everywhere. I would have declared an emergency for priority handling. You must land with 30 minutes of fuel left to be legal.
Instead of trying to outrun the storm, I would just go the other direction
Because everyone is asking, according to Wikipedia (article is in German only) the mud wall was built because the runway was often misused as race strip. Seems having only 1499 Meters isn't appealing to illegal racers.
Crazy.
Ay, ya think a chonky borb with a couple o' danger makers attached to it would be enough to send 'em runnin' for the hills? Methinks a 500-foot pass oughta get 'em started. Better than using a pile o' dirt. Much clearer message.
God bless every pilot and crews trying to fly and land safely
The controller screwed up.
He should have told them to land long because the threshold had an obstruction.
Very concise and to the point.
The controller had the luxury of sitting in a room as the pilots were looking at that gauge drop quickly
It's a shame but you see this everyday in all aspects of life - people who cannot get to the point. luckily this faired well and nobody died.
I used to fly from this airfield a lot. The mud wall separated the usable runway (just shy of 1,500 meters, more length was not approved) from a car safety driving circuit. All pilots in the area knew this but how could anyone else know?
They would have made it unharmed on those 1,500 meters easily. So the ended up stepping off a wreck. Lucky them, could have gone worse.
We couldn’t I use the airport for about two days until the wreckage was towed to the side, where it sat for a while before being taken apart. Poor bird.
A big double white line would have served the same purpose. And as a benefit, any driver who crossed the double could immediately have been disqualified from the course since crossing such lines is a big no-no.
@@JanBruunAndersen Would that stop illegal races?
@@HappyBeezerStudios - probably not. Was illegal car races a problem?
honestly? this was a cool look into some of the struggles pilots can face in their decision making, and it didn't have to end with a bunch of deaths to be interesting
good find :)
“Saab 2000 was buffeted by wind”
-some Pokémon game or something
I really love this video, as I live right at Werneuchen where the aircraft crashed. Sadly I wasn’t there when it happened.
And it’s really funny to hear American guys saying Tegel and Werneuchen XD.
What I kinda don’t understand is that why they didn’t land at Neuhardenberg, it’s a bit more to the east and has a longer runway with no bumps. There are some special A320 flights there sometimes. They would have easily make it.
I guess the weather was bad there as well...
@@gentuxable idk tbh, as the airport is more east, where the wind weren’t as bad as in the North west
This occurred in 1974, so the other airport was in e.
Germany so was closed to
Western airlines. Tegel
Was an exception because
Of the four powers agreeme
nt by the allies at the end of
The war.
In a way it's a good thing they were down to fumes at the final airport, else that mishap could've been way worse with more fuel causing a fire.
HELLO THERE M.A.C.I. ------COULD you please kindly let ''' us know ''' if you have your pilots license and do you fly,,,,,as your knowledge is vastly superior in your videos and I can only make my comment and say you do have a license .....
I also observe that your subbies are growing in membership numbers and you deserve all the accolades you can receive as you obviously take so much pride ,,, and care,,,, when compiling your shows for your audience...
Thank you very much for the work you do in providing us with excellent content..THANK YOU..
Even as a civilian I watch the weather forecast about 10 times a day always wanting to be prepared for any changes in the weather not just for each day , but the following week also...
I think this one meets the very definition of good landing. 😉
weather can change for worse in seconds... i flew once to the patagonian city of Esquel into a Saab 340 and it was like been in a blender! i swear i'd never would travel on a turboprop again. in this case the pilots worked on the available info but the controller did not mention the safe alternative
When you give out details it helps when you display it on screen. For example, everytime you say a time, have it written out on screen. 😉
There is a misstake: You mixed Eberswalde and Tegel on the map.
At that time Berlin had three airports in operation, Tegel, Tempelhof and Schönefeld. On their way to Berlin they would have passed by Braunschweig and Magdeburg airport, which have appropriate landing strips. It seeems the pilots were neither planning ahead, nor looking on a map, they were just looking out of the window, looking for better weather and a place to land. I wondered why they chose Werneuchen over the many alternatives, until looked it up on Google maps. It would be easily recognizable as an airfield high above, there's not much infrastructure around - either that or they had already decided to crashland their plane.
I wonder if A.I these days may come in handy at predicting were it is a good idea or not to fly at all to certain destination.. given you had provided all the needed information beforehand.. (as just.. "I have 46 minutes of extra fuel" and winging it does not seem to be enough) .. (Idk though, not sure about all the calculations they took or not actually)
Lots going on here.
Better met data on dispatch from Basel would have certainly helped as well as better interpretation of it.
Assesing their options en route with the help of Swiss ops also.
Good call to take extra fuel but having access to all the information would have prevented this swiss cheese model lining up.
Finally an early decision to divert after the go around to somewhere back along their route or RTB to Basel as they would have known the weather was better there.
Better still a delay to departure until such time as things cleared up or cancellation.
Some of this is industry basics and i am sorry to say a lot of people came up short that day.
Love 60fps videos, try 1440p next! Also a pop filter on your microphone. Love your videos though
I'm a little curious, there must have been hundreds of other planes in flight over Germany at the time, I wonder what was happening with all of them
This was a Saab 2000 (Reg. HB-IZY).
With 20/20 hindsight, the best decision would probably have been to fly through the weather to Bremen, which would clear earliest. Even the toughest weather usually is safe to cross in the air in a modern commuter airplane. Lübeck, OTOH was in the trajectory of the front.
Nice video, but you mixed up Berlin TXL and Eberswalde on the map ;)
Maybe if aviation authorities around the world required Flight Dispatchers like we have in the US this wouldn’t have happened. The direct support from a licensed person on the ground who is legally responsible along with the cockpit crew for the safety of the flight is invaluable in this kind of situation. ATC’s main responsibility it to separate aircraft. They will do all they can to help a flight in distress but they can’t be as focused on one aircraft as the dispatcher. The Dispatcher is a layer of safety all passengers worldwide deserve.
What exactly is it that they do that would've change the situation? And would that be a dispatcher from Switzerland or Germany?
your voice sounds more confident now
Can you make the video about the worst crash of Slovakia which is TABSO Flight 101 there isnt much information but it would be interesting.
Just out of curiosity, What happens to passengers of diverted flights?
Couldn't they have asked which direction the storm was going and fly to an airport that it had already pasted?
They didn’t know it was one big storm
COOL RIGHT IN SCHEDULE.
Three things are vital in communication. Information needs to be accurate, complete and timely. This incident had failures in all three counts.
Any landing everyone can walk away from is a good landing... This is why postmortems are conducted after every accident.
3:40 I think the markers on the map are switched
This is crazy bad luck with weather
The pilots were good in adding fuel and the passengers very lucky ... unlucky in the weather situation
Quite damning that no other flights got caught out like this. Tbf Crossair chewed through Saabs like crazy, I can think of three write-offs just off the top of my head. One fatal, two non-fatal (although one of the non-fatals was caused by the captain of the 146 that had a fatal crash landing in Zurich in 2001). Very poor record
I think all the pilots in the world had suffered lots of times because of the "NOSIG" in the weather report. 4 km visibily and light wind with few cloud turns to a huge monster within just 20 minutes while you are in descent and approach.
Many airport's met offices have a very bad routine to cover their own back in case of any incident or accident. They always add " FEW CB 25" to the wx report means that a small cell of storm is at 2500 ft above the airport while the weather is absolutely fine! But they might have less than one week of bad weather in the whole year! Just to make sure nobody blames them.
A metar is a weather REPORT for the airport, not a forecast or a report of weather 30 miles away. And the metars are often generated automatically by equipment that may or may not be 100% accurate. They are usually generated every hour (here in the States at least) so the weather report could be up to an hour old. NoSig in a metar means no significant weather in the immediate vicinity at the time the metar was generated. Commercial pilots should know this. If in a cornered in a minimum fuel situation, I would rather attempt a landing at a major airport with bad weather (where the controllers said someone else just made it in) than using the last of my fuel flying around to some unknown general aviation airport with no emergency services and no ATC.
Pilots painted themselves into a corner here, glad everyone survived.
@@toddsmith8608 In ICAO, "NOSIG" means no significant change that affects the operation (e.g cat 1 ILS minima) in the next 2 hours otherwise the term shouldn't be used. However I'm not sure about FAA regulations but I guess it should have similar meaning.
There are other terms like TEMPO or BECOME or VICINITY which are widely used in both METAR and TAF and they must properly used when applicable. NOSIG shouldn't be used when significant change in wx is expected.
I am I bad person for whistling the tune to "Stormy Weather" whilst watching this?
at 9:44 i thouth youd say that the storm had taken them,well,by storm :)
Honestly, I think the pilots did the best they could. Sure, they could have done a bit better with the alternate airports, but they did not have the training, and given the situation and the information they had on hand, I think this was the best outcome.
You mixed up Tegel and Eberswalde, Tegel is south, and Eberswalde north.
Murphy was hiperactive that day! Great that it didn't cause human injuries, but that's a long series of bad luck strikes.
did all the crew survived?
Yes no one died! Just injured!
@@Rouven41 How serious were the injuries?
@@xcharke3126 In the Wikipedia Article in German its stated, that one passenger had a injuried her legs, but i dont know how bad it was. But i dont think, that it was threatening.