you know, when the hotline miami devs said that they didn't want to make hotline miami 3, and they wanted someone else to make it, i think this is what they were hoping for
The way I look at it is this: Roguelites are the modern iteration of the arcade game. Designed to be absolutely brutal to knock you off the machine quickly, or force you to coin shovel. But the moment to moment gameplay is, in it's best examples, so intoxicating that you come back, and you get a little further, and you get a little further. With enough time, you are good enough to make the arcade game your bitch, and claim the fabled "1 credit clear" as your prize. To me, a good roguelite is just this. A brutal game that will make you *work* for that clear.
The ultimate arcade game in that regard is probably One Finger Death Punch 1/2 (get the sequel, it's straight up better). It's so simple only two buttons is needed to play. But it can become brutal as the game speeds up and starts throwing enemies with more advanced patterns at you. I love playing endless just to see how far I can get.
The problem i have is that i haven't found a roguelite good enough to see past the obvious reason it exists, which is not having to develop bespoke progression and artificially creating replayability. The "thrill" of replaying something until you beat it has never been my thing, i could be playing something else more fully developed with things to show me, i've learned to stay away from the genre.
Some time ago I ended up making a Hotline Miami-inspired game for a long gamejam and it's interesting seeing how me and OTXO's dev identified the same problems but fixed them in both similar and pretty much opposite ways. Both of us made things have more HP, highlighted what you'll pick up, gave the player an always-accessible melee attack... I went a slower route and gave enemies a Metal Gear style "display an exclamation mark over the head when spotting the player" state instead of instantly starting blasting when they spot the player (so bursting into a room and taking out enemies before they can act is viable), and enemies off-screen will not see you PERIOD so the HM2-style level design I'm guilty of works out better. I don't like when chained melee takedowns becomes a dominant strategy but I wanted individual melee kills to feel cool, so my solution was making the animation last for a full second (during which you can still take damage) but create a shockwave that instakills all nearby enemies. The one thing I'm not happy with is the total lack of interactivity in the environments, I've felt like I should have a "John Wick-ifying" pass and just make all props breakable. OHXO's "explosive barrels" everywhere upgrade sounds like the coolest idea ever, I feel like that's something I should've come up with since explosions have been scientifically proven to make anything better... Ah well, I guess that's why Lateralis is making commercial games and I'm still a hobbyist.
"explosions have been scientifically proven to make anything better" Oh man, I'm fascinated and disturbed at the prospect of seeing this applied to childbirth.
Well now I’m just curious what your work looks like and realistically every indie dev started as a hobby until they hit that one passion project tha exploded onto the scene. Of course some got discovered while others they requested a big RUclipsr try out and it caught on from there. For example iron pineapple trying out indie souls likes or markiplier/corykenshin/jackseptieye trying out horror indies.
2:18 as mentioned in the video, The Hong Kong Massacre was a game inspired by Hotline Miami. So John Wick 4's inspiration is still owed to the legacy of Hotline Miami.
@@CerpinTxt87 To be completely fair, that sorta what their goal was. A lot of the characters and their personalities were based off of the fanbase, who liked the game but just straight up didn't understand it whatsoever
I think Hotline Miami's goal was not to be a top down shooter but more of a twitchy and unnerving timing puzzle that culminate in a release of tension.
A game I’d personally enjoy playing? No. A game I’d personally recommend to people who would? Yes. A video that I’m exceedingly happy to see? Absolutely.
So glad to have you back, Raycevick. And I can only imagine how much it has sucked for you to live 20+ (30+?) years entirely unmedicated for ADHD. Adderall and Vyvanse are truly a godsend.
ADHD really didn't impact me back when I started this channel as nothing else was happening, but as I've juggled more and more projects, it's became increasingly stressful, I'm glad I found the right Medication.
You know what’s bullshit? There’s been a shortage of 70mg Vyvanse, and I’ve never had to jump through so many hoops just to get my medication. It’s so bad I had to settle for a month supply of 50’s instead. Adderall gave me headaches after it wore off, so I refuse to go back to that. I heard that they’re switching to generic, so I guess we have to wait in limbo for the time being.
Ruiner definitely came close to scratching that itch for me. The music, visuals, and frantic pace all made me feel similar things to when I first played Hotline Miami.
I think it says a lot that for every single flaw of Hotline Miami 1 and 2, I took it all in stride when they both came out. I think Hotline Miami 1 for me is a near flawless game in that I genuinely just did enjoy everything that it did, and didn't find the swapping around weapons to be a huge flaw in itself, I thought it just made you play around that bit of complexity in a sense. the inconsistent enemy AI I thought brought a lot of variety and forced you to react on the fly, I didn't mind that they didn't react realistically because hey it's a video game, and a video game that deconstructs the idea of enjoying violence in a video gamey format no-less. I basically enjoyed everything it ended up doing *as it was*. For me it did all I could've asked and I adored it for it, helps I found it randomly on the PS Store back in the day with 0 expectations. So the fact I got an incredible top down indie with a bumping soundtrack and interesting narrative piled on-top of it that was subversive for it's time, I don't know, I can't help but adore it and still praise it for what it is for this day. Hotline Miami 2 is severely flawed in so many ways but considering the *base* of it is what I adored about 1, I also tremendously enjoyed it despite also agreeing with every single issue you upheld about it, I actually might consider it even MORE fun. You do offer a very interesting and thoughtful analysis of this kind of game that I hadn't actually heard before, good video.
Bought it about halfway into the video. It's really good, weapons feel really powerful due to sounds and the adjustable screenshake. I was not expecting the soundtrack to be as good as it is, glad I bought the deluxe version.
I think this game misses the point of what makes Hotline Miami great. Hotline Miami is not really a topdown shooter. It’s more of a puzzle based arcade game. It’s about working out the correct sequence and tactics to beat a level. This seems to just be a standard topdown shooter with HMs pixel based art style and camera angle. All the design mechanics of hotline Miami are intentional to slow you down and make it not this type of game. This game looks like a good top down shooter but it’s not going to produce the same satisfaction that you get from beating a level in Hotline Miami after dying 100s of times.
@@Raycevick Hm is designed to make you think, check ahead, plan what you are going to do. It’s a trial and error process. Working out what works and doesn’t work to beat a level. You die over and over as a way of progressing your understanding of how to get through the level. That’s the slowing down I mean. OTXO is just a typical topdown shooter that borrows some gameplay elements from HM. All that thought and consideration is gone though. The level design in OTXO is more aimed at range combat than melee or combination kill streaks so it’s a very different game in that way. You don’t need to learn enemy movement patterns or enemy positions or different enemy types. So it’s missing all that. It’s still cool though don’t get me wrong it’s got badass topdown shooter gameplay, and great sound design but it’s nothing like hotline Miamis gameplay. Hotline Miami is a rare masterpiece.
if you've played enough OTXO you'd know that high skill gameplay involves carefully choosing your pathing to maximise points. not quite like hotline miami because the levels are random but theres still a bit of that feeling of solving a puzzle, its just a puzzle that has more varied solutions
@deecsaunders Its not missing those things, you just dont know about them because you've never played OTXO. There is a few distinct enemy types with different movement and attacks that you need to remember. But even simple basic enemies never feel the same when equipped with different weapons: you need a different approach to a guy with a rifle and a guy with a machine gun. You NEED to keep up the combo meter if you want to earn enough money, and to do so you need to be tactical about clearing the floor. I agree that they both are different games, different genres even. It's just wrong to say that OTXO "misses" the point of HM's greatness. No, it deliberately makes its own decisions that work for this specific gameplay loop. And it does it greatly
Yeah, this is very clearly NOT hotline miami and that is to it's determent for some of us. The game is not refined because it demands a mindless twitch response, planning is the enemy, stopping to think gets you killed and blind luck plus aggression is how you make it work. Everything you like here is, as you mentioned in passing, a slowing down. Like how doom eternal looses it's unblinking thrill once there's a dozen mental plates to spin, adding more to track and deal with in new ways only takes away from the synth induced psychosis
I'll be honest, I didn't like this video. This felt like a 40 minute advertisement that uses Hotline Miami as a punching bag. In fact, I don't think I at all got what Otxo has to offer that isn't based on Hotline Miami. I think a more fair way to shine light on Otxo and critique Hotline Miami would be to either separate the two and do separate videos on them, or to flatline state at the start of the video what the goal is. In the effort of trying to make Otxo look like an improved Hotline Miami, you've only managed to convince me that Otxo is creatively bankrupt and only knows how to improve on a pre-established formula, and you've also managed to convey that the pre-established formula is terrible. Hotline Miami is one of my favorite games, and I do carry some bias towards the way you handle it simply based on my love for it. That's also why it makes the video land worse than it should. At the end of the day, I think you wanted to tell us that Hotline Miami was good but could be better, and that Otxo learned all the right leasons. My advice would be to treat both games with respect and constructively point out what they do right and what they do wrong, rather than trying to hype one of them. If the goal was to seem over enthusiastic, then perhaps hyping both of them would have worked better, in a sort of "This is good, but this is better" way.
@DogeickBateman It was 50-70 minutes, not "the first day or so", and by complete accident. If it wasn't, why would I reactivate them the instant I woke up that morning? Chri's comment is a fair constructive critique, you are just spreading false information.
Surprised to see a discussion of the impact of Hotline Miami that makes absolutely no mention of Heat Signature. For my money it's easily the most interesting reinvention of the formula. The simple addition of a "slow time" button completely transforms the puzzle of the game into something much more cerebral. Combine this with the plethora of tools that allow you to move a hyperspeed, become invisible, teleport, throw up shields, take over turrets and so much more, and enemies with all kinds of fascinating abilities of their own and you've got some really rich gameplay to dig into.
Glad to see someone mentioning this game -- never seen anyone else talk about it :( It's one of my absolute favourites, and very innovative. Massively underappreciated and largely unknown little game. It's a real shame. But seeing someone else talk about it has made my day haha
It's impressive how many unique interactions things have with each other in that game. Interactions that are entirely logical, but still catch you by surprise. I'd highly recommend trying for the negative trait/vow achievements, they really highlight just how many ways there are to play that game. Going from a super-cautious Pacifist Vow/Frail run to the ramp-as-fast-as-possible madness of a Dying run is wild. It's easy to get into a rut where you think you need a certain piece of equipment to do hard missions (an armour-piercing weapon, subverter and/or a self-charging teleporter typically), but these traits will quickly disabuse you of that notion.
There's like 2 core mechanics that really set heat signature apart, for me. The first is the slow time button, yeah, and you've gone over that point. But I think you've skipped the other one that really helps enable that more cerebral playstyle. The inventory and how it behaves the fact that all items have separate cooldowns, there's no time penalty for swapping between different ones, combined with a short range teleporter for picking up anything not on your person means you can REALLY go wild with certain strats. Like carrying multiple guns to increase your effective fire rate since you can just fire a different gun while the first is on cooldown. It really sets Heat Signature apart from a lot of other topdown action games, since juggling an entire inventory isn't usually as feasible due to needing to actually spend time swapping or readying the item you need. Moreso than the timeslow, if you asked me, it just makes doing it easier on the player.
@@gamemaniac2013 Excellent point. You're absolutely right, being able to chain together item abilities is a huge part of the cool factor, and of the puzzle solving element. Your brain goes wild coming up with these crazy sequences of moves to clear a room full of bad guys, and then you feel like an absolute badass when you pull it off.
@@VoroxPete Using reversers on shields to make elite enemies accidentally shoot themselves, blowing out windows for emergency escapes or to clear out an entire room at once, taking over a different ship and completing your goal by blowing the target ship to pieces, ramming ships with the special pod that can destroy a room when moving at high speed to make your own entrance, there's just so many solutions to every problem and the only limitations are your inventory and your creativity
Good video, though I wouldn't call it "better". It's a solid sidegrade to Hotline, doing a lot of gameplay aspects better, but I think a lot of aspects about Hotline outside of its gameplay outdo this game. I'm a sucker for a good story, especially when it's told in a unique way; and Hotline delivers that way better, alongside how it delivers its atmosphere. Edit: Ray changed the title to "Successor" which I agree with a lot more!
@@kevinwillems8720I'm glad I'm not the only person who felt like this. The doors being wonky and the enemies seeing you when you can't see them are understandable sources of frustration, but the other stuff is a bit less cut and dry. I don't think that dying in one hit invalidates the weapon variety because it still influences when they are going to be vulnerable and it's not in keeping with the idea of a frenetic action scene for the protagonist to stop and ponder over what weapon they want to pick up. The game is about reflexes and learning the level layout, so the bare bones aspects of the game reinforce that by not letting you step away from those priorities and rewarding skillful execution within those limitations. It still feels like there's a solid middle ground between the minimalist gameplay design of the Hotline Miami and this more sophisticated, but also more forgiving and less tightly designed approach to the idea. I do think that this is probably as good a job as one could do to make a Hotline Miami rogue like, but it's pretty antithetical to the intended design of the inspiration to have the randomised levels and not have the gameplay serving a narrative function (at least in the original, your inability to comprehend the bigger picture was paralleled by the characters you played and the second game's attempts to directly tie the gameplay to the narrative, whilst not always creating the most enjoyable experiences, were a continuation of that)
@@casanovafunkenstein5090 and there's also enemies that don't go down in single hit. Some might take a hit and eventually bleed out, but optimally you're dumping 5 rounds from a smg or giving a point blank shotgun blast.
@@casanovafunkenstein5090 but the thing is those "frustrations" aren't bugs, they're features. Hotline Miami 1 is just as much a puzzle game as it is a reaction one, and hotline miami 2 is more puzzle than reflex. Also the door is an actual object in the world. You can open the door by shooting it.
I tried it but man, without the instant death and restart it just doesn't hit the same or even similar. I wish good luck to the dev but I had to refund.
This is framing as of the frustrating things in Hotline Miami weren't delibrate. Like the story wasn't critical, and how so many of these games trying to be Hotline Miami seem to delibrately miss the point of Hotline Miami. That goes double for Hotline Miami 2.
@Raycevick because you're treating like the whole game is just reflexes, instead of a puzzle. 2 doubled down on this. They say it themselves in the hints (tip: enemies are predictable). It's not a standard top down shooter, and treating it like one is how you'll stop enjoying it.
Edit: ray is a total chad and reaponds well to critique. Though i don't believe in removal of records so im going to keep this comment up, but if you stuble apom this know i no longer have any issue with the video. for context the original title of the video was "finally... a better hotline miami" I agree with everything you said in the video but the title is just arrogant and disrespectful. oxto isn't better Hotline Miami. hotline maimi is the best hotline miami. oxto is the best oxto. don't be disrespectful of artists, you're better than that. you are both saying oxto devs are copy cats and hotline devs are hacks when you say an art piece is just another art piece but better. if you would have called the video "finally... a successor to hotline Miami" I wouldn't have made this comment.
I'm gonna try that, the title is something I went back and forth on several times, was considering even a Patreon poll, but at a certain point, I was just relieved to have a video finished at all after so many personal delays.
@@Raycevick tbh, the old title is what got me to watch this video faster. Yes, it's clickbaity (and from what I saw in the video, this game is as much of Hotilne Miami, as Katana Zero, maybe even less), but it did get me to watch it now, instead of saving to watch later (I don't think, I would watch it now with the current title).
If you want a top down shooter that goes in a different direction that hotline miami yet is very clearly still an evolution of it with its own unique focuses, I'd heavily recommend you try out Intravenous. Enemy AI is both complex and fun to play with, and the amount of unique approaches you have to any given situation are seriously empowering and cool.
Intravenous is cool but it strays so far from the Hotline Miami formula, that it's a better recommendation for Splinter Cell fans than Hotline Miami fans. Still, good recommendation. Maybe someone here is more up for stealth games anyway.
i like hotline but i dont like what it did to twin stick shooters especially when also combined with roguleikes like issac and gungeon i just wanna huff glue and shoot stuff the best indie twin stick shooter is ubermosh omega
27:13 Raycevick you hit the nail on the head. I think more games should strive to be like movies where if I have a day off, I can just play that game in one sitting. Action games I think should live by that creed, everything is slowly just turning into a mushed grand adventure that I lose interest in no time because it is simply just too much.
The boomshoot resurgence has been a healthy sign for the return to more focused experiences. Realistically it was only ever going to come from indie, a game that is one thing as well as can be is just not something you see when larger budgets get involved.
I feel like trying to change the way Hotline Miami controls changes the way its played HLM isnt about precise movement or anything like that, its meant to be reckless and constant and you're meant to be adaptable. I dislike trying to change that way its played as it'd make it feel entirely different.
This just sounds like an excuse for why it's okay that the HM games have messy, floaty and difficult to control movement mechanics. I think HM2 polished the movement significantly by adding some actual momentum to the player characters but HM1s movement is just outright bad. Besides, having uncomfortable controls that you can't trust would discourage reckless gameplay as you'd be too busy wrestling with your characters movement to really play aggressively and start taking chances. If you successfully managed to develop an aggressive playstyle in HM1, it is only despite it's movement, not because of it.
@@bogginggmonster5829 Then don't fucking comment. I mean, you can have your opinion, but why bother making a comment disagreeing, providing no actual good points, and then reply to someone's comment, just to say "lol don't care".
@@Xamp1256i never felt like i was wrestling with the character, they are really responsive, the characters are obviously really fast, same as the enemies, and the sensitivity is high, but thats what makes it fun, you have to set up a rough plan for a level and then try your best to execute it while managing all the unpredictable stuff that happens, it forces quick thinking with the whole weapon changing that he mentioned. He also, for some reason complained about some glitches and presented them as features.
Yeah him shitting on Hotline Miami is kinda weird. Because at the end of the day I've heard of Hotline Miami and havent heard of anything else in this video that tried to emulate it. Maybe its greatness is in its simplicity.
Well primitive isn’t inherently a negative trait. Donkey Kong is a classic arcade game but you’d be silly to say it isn’t primitive compared to the platformers today or even Super Mario Bros 4 years later. Primitive just means it’s less advanced, it’s simple. There’s a lot of good in simple, but simple means it can also be expanded on and made more advanced
@@SuperBKDK , you know, great things can still be imperfect. And there's nothing wrong with critiquing the aspects that can be better. "Shitting" is an awful term there. Why reduce the discussion to a boolean?
The experience of having a long run ended by a bullet three rooms, two windows and a door away is definitely a uniquely hotline experience. Wouldn't say I'd ever want it repeated, but I see your point.
Nover played Hotline Miami, the game doesn't interests me. And that's ok, there are plenty of indie games i love, like Terraria, BeamNG, ETS2, Little Nighmares 2, My Summer Car, Undertale and much more. People sometimes really underestimate indie devs.
I saw your comment on the OTXO OST video and I was hoping you'd drop a review on the game. It's nice to have someone with a similar experience as myself put my feelings when playing this game into words.
Fantastic!! Everything about your work is with such care and effort, i could watch a 40-60min video of you discussing housebrick design :D Glad yer feeling better too ;)
Didn't expect Titanfall 2 to make an appearance! It's been getting some updates from the Respawn janitor lately! Love the video! Gonna grab otxo for me and some friends - we played Hotline Miami on a PS Vita a while ago on a trip, I think they'll love it too!
Yeah, okay, keeping an eye on this for if it goes on sale on Steam, looks like a blast. It's nice to see a game that knows what it wants to be, and just... is that. It doesn't try to be a variety show of mechanics and gameplay segments, instead focusing entirely on its core gameplay loop to make it as enjoyable and challenging as possible while minimizing frustration. And honestly, a top down shooter is perfect for a rougelike loop. Nothing like getting a god run going and demolishing, just to get your arse handed to you for the next 5 runs afterward because you're still in the mindset of that amazing synergy build you had going earlier.
The game looks cool, but a lot of the points you made are true of several other roguelikes as well. This seems like it was just the first roguelike to really capture you, whereas the likes of Gungeon, Isaac, Dead Cells were for many others.
What about Heat Signature? Feels like no one knows about heat signature despite it being a really good roguelite with the same gameplay as hotline miami, but also you have a million creative gadgets and interesting puzzle like levels that lead to infinite possibilities with both how you make your character and how you approach ships with that character. Its probably the only roguelite I know that pulls off one hit instant death and doesnt feel unfair or frustrating
Glad your doing OK Raycevick. I don't know you but I wish I had friends that I could talk to about the gaming industry as in depth as you do. No other Content Creators make me jump like a kid when I see a notification for a new video. Your videos are some of the highest quality on the platform and I hope I can continue to see more for as long as you can stand it. And no matter how long the gap between videos, I'll always be looking for the your next. Stay Healthy ♥
Sometimes I wish I could nerd about all of the things about gaming that I watch or read about. Most people though just prefer playing the games and don't really care about innovation or the state of gaming as a whole. Oh, well.
y'know, your gameplay description is what lategame Synthetik feels like to me - the right weapon, the the right items and upgrades... And it's just a bloodbath, a glass cannon powertrip, gritted teeth while holding down full(er) auto... I might have to check this game out!
The quote at 4:08 is a recurring thing I keep seeing, and it bothers me when people say "I made X game in X days, and it's already better/has more than X game ever did", which ignores the amount of iteration that a studio does to reach the final product, and just looks at it as a matter of addition. It sells the thing they're talking about short to make themselves look better, which is a pretty shitty thing to do. Great video though!
The only thing I've hoped to compare to my experience with hotline are the unreleased fan "sequels" in the form of 1-900-CULT and The Patriots I'm definitely going to be buying this game, thanks for making me aware of it :)
Anybody who has ever been any good at hotline miami knows that playing from the corner of a room isnt fun nor is it the optimal way to play. The score system rewards the player for killing as many enemies as quickly as possible and chaining kills. I think otxo would succeed way more if it didnt use the monochrome style, the reason miami was so successful was because it had such a memorable aesthetic and story not because it had the best gameplay, sad that this otxo game doesnt have the same...
I always recommend Redeemer. It's arguably more primitive and stilted than Hotline Miami, but something about being able to switch from shooting to melee seamlessly without dropping your weapon is INCREDIBLY satisfying. Also, buying this game immediately
Man, I wish I could like this game as much as you do, you honestly make it sound great... The problem for me is, while OTXO's action hits the level of highs I got from Hotline Miami's, what really prevents me from putting it on the same shelf is when you die. Sure, you've got a health bar so you can last through a level longer causing more havoc and painting walls with galleons of red, but as soon as it empties and that gong sound rings, you're jerked back from the adrenaline rush flowing through your veins like the braking system on a roller coaster, and have to spend twenty to thirty seconds looking through the bottle selection before getting back into the action, or a minute plus if you choose to wake up outside and fish. It doesn't sound like much, but when HM lets you go back into the action with just a button press, that delay takes me right out of it enough that I only play a couple of rounds rather than slam the continue button like it's existence personally offended me and restart the same room.
Excellent point, especially since I haven't touched either since 2015. I guess I just got less patent with age.@@Raycevick Edit: Y'know what, thinking about it, even the original HM had some slow moments that dragged everything to a crawl that I just memory holed into oblivion, like that damn hospital escape bit with no weapons... I should probably try the games again to see if I can get the same sort of rush I remember I used to have...
It's basic game design knowledge to not anchor the camera to the character you're controlling. Hotline Miami is indeed extremely crude and rudimentary.
@@necromax13 i wouldn't agree that there is a prescribed formula for developing a good game... the boundless, infinite canvas of your imagination is what makes game design so much fun. maybe Hotline Miami is so much fun _because_ of some of these "crude" and "rudimentary" decisions. the sum of every small decision is the game itself. who knows - maybe the dev knew something you don't. Did you know the human brain can interpret photoimagery 60,000 times faster than text? i design my games around that very simple principal but many ppl wouldn't know it unless they were told - nor would they understand its relative contribution
@@Raycevick That it is, I was just trying to make a joke either way, not be insulting, Sorry tone doesn't come through text and I should've made it more obvious xD
@@oiyile1971 I understand it. I've gotten some comments in the past I wasn't sure of, but I do appreciate knowing that someone did see it as a joke xD I really wasn't trying to be rude.
it's cool that you feel this way lucas, but HUH???? not going to bash otxo on anything but the screen shake and the OST (which is seriously dull). I'm just going to say wow: what tastes do you have in music that the lamest lowest effort Carpenter Brut copycat gets you going this much? Also, as a reviewer, what's up with your ongoing contradiction between innovation or reiteration??? Like what do you want? Devs to innovate or devs to work on familiar and abandoned concepts? Specially in this era of buzzword game genre development, where indie devs are just constantly trying to one up each other whenever a new trendy style of game comes out, and stuff like rogues and boomer shooters are already beaten to a pulp, you wishing for devs to "explore concepts of yesteryear" sounds to me like you either are disconnected from the current gaming landscape (and when i say current i mean the last decade lol) or you don't play enough games. Otxo looks cool and probably plays alright for the people that have an itch for that, but cmon man, if a cromulent soundtrack and "gun go boom and screen goes brrr" is what gets you making videos, when we have games that have all but perfected the elements, genres, and mechanics you're praising here... I dont know what else to say.
Calling Hotline Miami primitive feels a bit like an insult when it was deliberately a rather simple game. Btw none of the games you mentioned are "roguelikes". A roguelike is a turn based dungeon crawler, not a shooter or a platformer. These games can be referred to as rogue-*lites*
Really? Enter the Gungeon or Spelunky aren't Roguelikes? Most don't take the game as being a replica of Rogue itself to be "like" it at this point. Rogue-lites have sources of meta progression that make you stronger over culminative runs.
Came back after buying and finishing the game. I did it in my first run, for which I'm fairly proud of myself, but I can honestly say it's crisp. Weapons sound and fell incredible, gameplay is mint. I haven't unlocked everything yet, but I can't wait to jump back in. My first clear of the game was about 4 hours. Incredibly fun game.
Amazing video as always, Raycevick. One minor criticism though as per the beginning of the video. You were describing the aspects of what Indie was as what you remembered. You expressed Indie meant "retro" where, I understand what you mean, "Indie" originally solely meant developed by someone outside of a larger parent company; self developed, self published, and self funded. This, of course, was regardless of the style.
As someone who was in the sphere at that time, I can assure you, there was a period where any Indie game that was being talked about was some in sort of neo-retro genre and you had to be fairly low to the ground to get anything else.
@@jerrycan1756 what period lol? around the cave story era there were no indies, basically, and modding was the era's equivalent to indie game development (and we got Dota and CS from that era), then we got the boom for the indies, right at the end of the 00s, pixel art retro nonsense wasn't our bread and butter (and the big hitters weren't retro AT ALL, specially Braid looool). neo-retro genre what the hell
I'd argue mandalore's channel is practically built on the "Vicarious experience" genre. Which is fine, better to at least see it if not play it, but it was jarring for me to be invested by a video, buy and play the game and then realize his taste does not align with mine in the slightest, and I doubt it aligns with many, hence the appeal of the games he chooses to present.
Imagine my joy when I realize you list all the media used in the description. Imagine my disappointment when I realize the media list doesn't cover the Q&A section and I wanted to look up the short "I know what you want!" clip used in the Q&A section. Life can be brutal sometimes.
@@Raycevick Ah, thank you very much! Seems like I was completely wrong then since I expected the clip to belong to something with Satoshi Kon vibes. Edit: And I just realized she actually says "I know what you are!" Not that it makes a difference, but I still find hilarious how it can be misheard solely due to the screaming since that would never happen if it was just spoken at a normal cadence.
it's not the same genre, but katana zero takes quite a lot of inspiration from hotline miami. have you played it? and if yes, how do you feel about it? and if no, go play it
It's honestly way better than the game featured in this video lol: It's not a roguelike, has a great artstyle, intertwines game mechanics with the narrative at play (!), has an interesting dialogue system (!!), and has a varied and well used soundtrack.
Enjoy your review, still sad how muddied the term "roguelike" has gotten. Gives me that 'shaking old man stick' feeling of 'back in my day they were randomized grid-based, turn-based dungeon crawlers!'
My only gripe so far is that I have to drop my gun so that the bartender will let me get a drink. The interaction of drop gun - get a drink - pick up gun takes me out of the action a bit too much. Not that it makes the game bad, but if you want me to do this all the time just to establish that the rose room is a "civil place" and have the drinking animation play, is it really worth it to have those in the first place? Just give me the same screen Hotline Miami 2 had when you pick masks whenever I get to the point where I get the upgrade. It'll be way faster, and won't break up the gameplay too much
I agree. After a while some elements of the game do start dragging the pace down on subsequent runs. The whole process for buying drinks, as you mentioned, but also the unskippable level title cards and the just slightly too tanky, yet easily beaten first boss. Asking the dev to cut the fat from a game that's already this lean and laser-focused seems a little ridiculous and yet I still kind of want an ADHD mode that puts the controls in your hands as fast as possible and skips every non-controllable segment. Edit: fixed a typo
@@Xamp1256 Agree 100% I also feel a bit insane asking to streamline the process even harder, but having a NON-STOP checkbox somewhere in the settings would be absolutely fantastic
Hey Lucas, you have to take a look at MIDNIGHT FIGHT EXPRESS. This game is unbelievably underrated. Hotline Miami meets John Wick meets My Friend Pedro. This is the most John Wick I've felt in a game by a good margin. Please give it a try, how is this game so good.
Good to see you back in action Ray. I don't blame HM2 for not iterating on the gameplay -- that was never to point of _anything_ Cactus has worked on -- but it's good to see people jumping off it so well. Also don't worry about speed limits when you drive in BC, the limit is always "what the guy in front is doing"
what really made me love hotline miami is its story and how even when it comes to story telling they took it with creativity, you really feel like a murderer ignorant to everything to what is really happening behind all the killings
@@RaycevickTbh the 2 words are probably interchangeable, but when I hear janky I think mechanics that are implemented but don’t function smoothly or correctly, so wonky is more like, “This works and is mostly smooth, but something still isn’t quite right.” This is probably me overthinking words, but jank just doesn’t feel like the right word for Hotline Miami. Also thank you for blessing us with a new vid it was absolutely worth the wait.
I don’t care how long it takes Raycevick to upload. The videos are always excellent. Keep doing what your doing. Your work never fails to be thought-provoking.
Alright. Alright. Fine you win, I'll check out here 9:13 and be back after I've played the game. Subbed👌👏 Edit: Just finished the game 3 times now. It was fantastic
I've been wanting a top down shooter that evokes Hotline Miami's intensity. This seems like it not only does that, but also refines and surpasses it. Looks like this is the one.
I'm also normally not one for roguelikes so this is very interesting to me. A few remarks do put me off though- you mention that being 'too cautious' is detrimental, and that there's no stealth missions. What's the point of all those lovely suppressed weapons then, if there's no stealth elements?
They are quieter, giving you more space to react, and one of the drinks will make them completely inaudible, which is how I was able to finish my first run.
Neat, thanks for the... Idk if it's appropriate to call it a review. The amount of glowing praise make me feel like it's a promotion) must be a really good game 🤔
@@Raycevick Ruiner definitely feels similar to me, not entirely the same but i'd put them in the same category, i think Ruiner has the slight edge over Otxo but they're both fantastically addictive
I think you are too praising of this game and only pay its flaws lip service. Weapon pickup is still buggy, melee is a joke that has the enemy running literal circles around you, killing enemies with doors is an outright lie, the huge sight lines with the stationary machine guns are a nightmare, the stationary machine guns themselves are a death sentence and make any gun nearby unobtainable, more of the perk liquors are buggy (grenade prince; kill an enemy with a grenade, get a grenade - except sometimes you don't and you have to negotiate with the five armed men who took exception to your organs), shotguns are little more than a polite request to kill the enemy unless you have something buffing them and even then your pellets might be allergic to the guy two feet in front of you, the level design is made to break your combo with backtracking half the time, the color pallet has gotten me killed by the unreadable environment having me stuck on some grey blob, the acid pools render underneath any bloodstains. I'm sure as I continue to play I will find more baffling problems. Even on it's own merits as a rouge like, it fails. After a couple dozen runs, I have unlocked three new guns from the stupid gatcha game, and a handful of liquors which I never saw again. Progress is nonexistent. There isn't much incentive to try again because so much of the fun stuff you only get to play with for a little while, then never see again. Where it does try to rise above HM, it falls elsewhere and I believe it ultimately falls short.
Well said. This video reads like an ad trying to be the next "halo killer" of hotline miami; a game so barebones and simple it works on a lot of levels, while this tries to cram more into a genre that doesnt need overstuffing. HLM transcended being just another game, it became an icon, and this video sounds like it wants to paint HLM in a negative light for a sales pitch for this game.
i have such a love for hotline miami, i literally get chills hearing some of the tracks from that game, and otxo is the only game that has come out to feel like a true spiritual successor, gameplay wise and soundtrack wise (to me, at least.) would love to see a vinyl for the games soundtrack. also, whatever game your friend from the interview is making, i need that lol
I tried to do Super Meat Boy similarly: "Remnants of Naezith". It got 95% positive 435 reviews. It was unfortunately released at the same time as Celeste 😄 Awesome video!
I dunno man, this all just comes across like someone explaining why "Yngwie Malmsteen is actually the best guitar player of all time". Looks like its full of systems and fixes a lot of the jank, but lacks so much of what made Hotline Miami special.
Ray, making me buy another game this month wasn't expected but here we are. Thank you for this. It's all you promised and even more. Continue your awesome work!
Thanks for playing man, glad you enjoyed the game :)
You're a genius my man. Crazy how you did all of this solo.
I literally discovered your game through your soundtrack on RUclips. Awesome music and great game!
Great game!
i am saddened there are no colors in your game. are you french?
STFU dude it's so good
you know, when the hotline miami devs said that they didn't want to make hotline miami 3, and they wanted someone else to make it, i think this is what they were hoping for
May I ask why
@@ghost14224 it improves on the formula
@@ghost14224no
@@ghost14224I think you already know why because of the ending
They said that? Dude that makes everything I keep saying "is basically hotline miami 3" so much more awesome. Thank you for that.
Dammit Ray I've been playing this all week because of you and now I can't stop. Thanks a lot. (No I mean it thanks, absolutely amazing game.)
huggbees? what are you doing here?
Not to diss Raycevick (love him), but I hate how this is the most popular video about OTXO, so I am begging you do a video on this
The way I look at it is this:
Roguelites are the modern iteration of the arcade game. Designed to be absolutely brutal to knock you off the machine quickly, or force you to coin shovel.
But the moment to moment gameplay is, in it's best examples, so intoxicating that you come back, and you get a little further, and you get a little further. With enough time, you are good enough to make the arcade game your bitch, and claim the fabled "1 credit clear" as your prize.
To me, a good roguelite is just this. A brutal game that will make you *work* for that clear.
I've never thought of it that way, and you're exactly right
That's a super interesting take and entirely makes sense to me
Brilliant comment making me rethink the genre.
The ultimate arcade game in that regard is probably One Finger Death Punch 1/2 (get the sequel, it's straight up better). It's so simple only two buttons is needed to play. But it can become brutal as the game speeds up and starts throwing enemies with more advanced patterns at you.
I love playing endless just to see how far I can get.
The problem i have is that i haven't found a roguelite good enough to see past the obvious reason it exists, which is not having to develop bespoke progression and artificially creating replayability.
The "thrill" of replaying something until you beat it has never been my thing, i could be playing something else more fully developed with things to show me, i've learned to stay away from the genre.
I replay the first hotline Miami at least once a year, it never gets old for me
I used to play it on my switch almost every day, and it never got old for me XD
Recently gone through HM2 again, this video couldn’t have come at a better time.
Really? I think the first one becomes far too easy once you get a good grip on the combat
@@ThePlayer920gotta get a grip
@@ThePlayer920I mean yes, but then every level becomes a beautiful symphony of violence, moving from room to room dispatching everyone
Some time ago I ended up making a Hotline Miami-inspired game for a long gamejam and it's interesting seeing how me and OTXO's dev identified the same problems but fixed them in both similar and pretty much opposite ways. Both of us made things have more HP, highlighted what you'll pick up, gave the player an always-accessible melee attack... I went a slower route and gave enemies a Metal Gear style "display an exclamation mark over the head when spotting the player" state instead of instantly starting blasting when they spot the player (so bursting into a room and taking out enemies before they can act is viable), and enemies off-screen will not see you PERIOD so the HM2-style level design I'm guilty of works out better. I don't like when chained melee takedowns becomes a dominant strategy but I wanted individual melee kills to feel cool, so my solution was making the animation last for a full second (during which you can still take damage) but create a shockwave that instakills all nearby enemies.
The one thing I'm not happy with is the total lack of interactivity in the environments, I've felt like I should have a "John Wick-ifying" pass and just make all props breakable. OHXO's "explosive barrels" everywhere upgrade sounds like the coolest idea ever, I feel like that's something I should've come up with since explosions have been scientifically proven to make anything better... Ah well, I guess that's why Lateralis is making commercial games and I'm still a hobbyist.
Keep trucking at it, you're way ahead of people like me.
Otxo actually has the exclamation mark alerts too! Still blindingly fast reactions though
"explosions have been scientifically proven to make anything better"
Oh man, I'm fascinated and disturbed at the prospect of seeing this applied to childbirth.
Oh wow, it’s Yal. Didn’t expect to see someone I know here, lol. ^^
Well now I’m just curious what your work looks like and realistically every indie dev started as a hobby until they hit that one passion project tha exploded onto the scene. Of course some got discovered while others they requested a big RUclipsr try out and it caught on from there. For example iron pineapple trying out indie souls likes or markiplier/corykenshin/jackseptieye trying out horror indies.
2:18 as mentioned in the video, The Hong Kong Massacre was a game inspired by Hotline Miami. So John Wick 4's inspiration is still owed to the legacy of Hotline Miami.
Proof
Hotline Miami from Wish
@@AC-hj9tvlook up John Wick Dragon Breath interview. That'll back up his claim
well that and john woo movies
@@AC-hj9tvwhy dont you get off your butt and research it yourself
Hotline Miami is one of my favorite game series of all time, it's very primitive but very engaging and satisfying when getting really good at it
It's simply simple, it's not a problem at all.
Couldn't have said it better. Such an interesting lore behind it as well, they smashed it out the park with both games.
@@loowisk1113 the second game feels like a fan mod made by someone who didn't understand why the first game was good
@@CerpinTxt87 I disagree but fair enough, that’s your opinion
@@CerpinTxt87 To be completely fair, that sorta what their goal was. A lot of the characters and their personalities were based off of the fanbase, who liked the game but just straight up didn't understand it whatsoever
I love how you sound so unhinged during points of this video.
I was.
I think Hotline Miami's goal was not to be a top down shooter but more of a twitchy and unnerving timing puzzle that culminate in a release of tension.
THANK YOU!
so it's a top down shooter ok got it
before i even watch this video, i can already tell the music in this video is going to be godlike
I don't know how I lived for so long never knowing KMFDM made songs for Spiderman 2...
pizza time @@Raycevick
A game I’d personally enjoy playing? No.
A game I’d personally recommend to people who would? Yes.
A video that I’m exceedingly happy to see? Absolutely.
This.
Same, I am not good enough to enjoy Hotline Miami,
@@Ghi102the first one isn't that hard
Hotel? Trivago!
Perfect
I have an assignment due in like... two hours
bro couldn't have picked a worse time to drop another classic on me😭😭😭
I could've picked... one hour.
@@Raycevick if that's the case, I expect your next video to come out an hour before my final is due
So glad to have you back, Raycevick.
And I can only imagine how much it has sucked for you to live 20+ (30+?) years entirely unmedicated for ADHD. Adderall and Vyvanse are truly a godsend.
ADHD really didn't impact me back when I started this channel as nothing else was happening, but as I've juggled more and more projects, it's became increasingly stressful, I'm glad I found the right Medication.
I have been diagnosed for 7 years now and still have never gotten medication, lol. God why are so many medical systems sooo fucked.
You know what’s bullshit? There’s been a shortage of 70mg Vyvanse, and I’ve never had to jump through so many hoops just to get my medication. It’s so bad I had to settle for a month supply of 50’s instead. Adderall gave me headaches after it wore off, so I refuse to go back to that. I heard that they’re switching to generic, so I guess we have to wait in limbo for the time being.
@@michimatsch5862 I know that pain all too well.
@@michimatsch5862I've heard it's hard to diagnose it in adulthood, may I ask? did you decide to seek it out or did relatives notice it?
Ruiner definitely came close to scratching that itch for me. The music, visuals, and frantic pace all made me feel similar things to when I first played Hotline Miami.
I think it says a lot that for every single flaw of Hotline Miami 1 and 2, I took it all in stride when they both came out.
I think Hotline Miami 1 for me is a near flawless game in that I genuinely just did enjoy everything that it did, and didn't find the swapping around weapons to be a huge flaw in itself, I thought it just made you play around that bit of complexity in a sense.
the inconsistent enemy AI I thought brought a lot of variety and forced you to react on the fly, I didn't mind that they didn't react realistically because hey it's a video game, and a video game that deconstructs the idea of enjoying violence in a video gamey format no-less.
I basically enjoyed everything it ended up doing *as it was*. For me it did all I could've asked and I adored it for it, helps I found it randomly on the PS Store back in the day with 0 expectations.
So the fact I got an incredible top down indie with a bumping soundtrack and interesting narrative piled on-top of it that was subversive for it's time, I don't know, I can't help but adore it and still praise it for what it is for this day.
Hotline Miami 2 is severely flawed in so many ways but considering the *base* of it is what I adored about 1, I also tremendously enjoyed it despite also agreeing with every single issue you upheld about it, I actually might consider it even MORE fun.
You do offer a very interesting and thoughtful analysis of this kind of game that I hadn't actually heard before, good video.
Hotline miami 2 offered one major improvement. it felt crunchier.
Raycevick, regardless of how much longer you're on RUclips, I think you'll permanently be my favorite channel 🤙🏾
Bought it about halfway into the video.
It's really good, weapons feel really powerful due to sounds and the adjustable screenshake.
I was not expecting the soundtrack to be as good as it is, glad I bought the deluxe version.
You should stop over-relying on comparisons. Hotline Miami and OTXO aren't the same game and they're trying to achieve different things.
Now play Colt Canyon
I think this game misses the point of what makes Hotline Miami great. Hotline Miami is not really a topdown shooter. It’s more of a puzzle based arcade game. It’s about working out the correct sequence and tactics to beat a level. This seems to just be a standard topdown shooter with HMs pixel based art style and camera angle. All the design mechanics of hotline Miami are intentional to slow you down and make it not this type of game. This game looks like a good top down shooter but it’s not going to produce the same satisfaction that you get from beating a level in Hotline Miami after dying 100s of times.
I don't really see how Hotline Miami is designed to slow you down, especially after its sequel added a combo meter to the hud.
@@Raycevick Hm is designed to make you think, check ahead, plan what you are going to do. It’s a trial and error process. Working out what works and doesn’t work to beat a level. You die over and over as a way of progressing your understanding of how to get through the level. That’s the slowing down I mean. OTXO is just a typical topdown shooter that borrows some gameplay elements from HM. All that thought and consideration is gone though. The level design in OTXO is more aimed at range combat than melee or combination kill streaks so it’s a very different game in that way. You don’t need to learn enemy movement patterns or enemy positions or different enemy types. So it’s missing all that. It’s still cool though don’t get me wrong it’s got badass topdown shooter gameplay, and great sound design but it’s nothing like hotline Miamis gameplay. Hotline Miami is a rare masterpiece.
if you've played enough OTXO you'd know that high skill gameplay involves carefully choosing your pathing to maximise points. not quite like hotline miami because the levels are random but theres still a bit of that feeling of solving a puzzle, its just a puzzle that has more varied solutions
@deecsaunders Its not missing those things, you just dont know about them because you've never played OTXO. There is a few distinct enemy types with different movement and attacks that you need to remember. But even simple basic enemies never feel the same when equipped with different weapons: you need a different approach to a guy with a rifle and a guy with a machine gun. You NEED to keep up the combo meter if you want to earn enough money, and to do so you need to be tactical about clearing the floor.
I agree that they both are different games, different genres even. It's just wrong to say that OTXO "misses" the point of HM's greatness. No, it deliberately makes its own decisions that work for this specific gameplay loop. And it does it greatly
"I was inspired by Hotline Miami and, in two weeks, I had already made a BETTER GAME." - Unnamed Nobody
A fellow fanfiction writer.
Hey, they said more advanced mechanics, not a "better game"
Pretty sure Hotline Miami's "primitive"-ness was kinda the point, and isn't worth critiquing.
>Furries
nah im good!
Yeah, this is very clearly NOT hotline miami and that is to it's determent for some of us. The game is not refined because it demands a mindless twitch response, planning is the enemy, stopping to think gets you killed and blind luck plus aggression is how you make it work. Everything you like here is, as you mentioned in passing, a slowing down. Like how doom eternal looses it's unblinking thrill once there's a dozen mental plates to spin, adding more to track and deal with in new ways only takes away from the synth induced psychosis
Trying to sell a game by tearing down Hotline Miami is a bad way to do it. I think I'll stick with HM2's custom campaigns.
Hotline got me into the making of games with its simplicity yet complex intriguing story. Love this game. Grew up with this game.
I'll be honest, I didn't like this video. This felt like a 40 minute advertisement that uses Hotline Miami as a punching bag. In fact, I don't think I at all got what Otxo has to offer that isn't based on Hotline Miami. I think a more fair way to shine light on Otxo and critique Hotline Miami would be to either separate the two and do separate videos on them, or to flatline state at the start of the video what the goal is. In the effort of trying to make Otxo look like an improved Hotline Miami, you've only managed to convince me that Otxo is creatively bankrupt and only knows how to improve on a pre-established formula, and you've also managed to convey that the pre-established formula is terrible.
Hotline Miami is one of my favorite games, and I do carry some bias towards the way you handle it simply based on my love for it. That's also why it makes the video land worse than it should. At the end of the day, I think you wanted to tell us that Hotline Miami was good but could be better, and that Otxo learned all the right leasons. My advice would be to treat both games with respect and constructively point out what they do right and what they do wrong, rather than trying to hype one of them. If the goal was to seem over enthusiastic, then perhaps hyping both of them would have worked better, in a sort of "This is good, but this is better" way.
I completely agree
@DogeickBateman It was 50-70 minutes, not "the first day or so", and by complete accident. If it wasn't, why would I reactivate them the instant I woke up that morning? Chri's comment is a fair constructive critique, you are just spreading false information.
@@Raycevick what did he say?
@@maggotyodelsomething very cunty
@@linusnottech No I was reporting on the disabling of likes and comments but evidently that was an error but ok cunt
What blasphemy is this video title?
Gonna have to give this one a try. I had a blast playing through Hotline Miami 1 and 2
Surprised to see a discussion of the impact of Hotline Miami that makes absolutely no mention of Heat Signature.
For my money it's easily the most interesting reinvention of the formula. The simple addition of a "slow time" button completely transforms the puzzle of the game into something much more cerebral. Combine this with the plethora of tools that allow you to move a hyperspeed, become invisible, teleport, throw up shields, take over turrets and so much more, and enemies with all kinds of fascinating abilities of their own and you've got some really rich gameplay to dig into.
Glad to see someone mentioning this game -- never seen anyone else talk about it :( It's one of my absolute favourites, and very innovative. Massively underappreciated and largely unknown little game. It's a real shame. But seeing someone else talk about it has made my day haha
It's impressive how many unique interactions things have with each other in that game. Interactions that are entirely logical, but still catch you by surprise.
I'd highly recommend trying for the negative trait/vow achievements, they really highlight just how many ways there are to play that game. Going from a super-cautious Pacifist Vow/Frail run to the ramp-as-fast-as-possible madness of a Dying run is wild. It's easy to get into a rut where you think you need a certain piece of equipment to do hard missions (an armour-piercing weapon, subverter and/or a self-charging teleporter typically), but these traits will quickly disabuse you of that notion.
There's like 2 core mechanics that really set heat signature apart, for me.
The first is the slow time button, yeah, and you've gone over that point.
But I think you've skipped the other one that really helps enable that more cerebral playstyle. The inventory and how it behaves
the fact that all items have separate cooldowns, there's no time penalty for swapping between different ones, combined with a short range teleporter for picking up anything not on your person means you can REALLY go wild with certain strats.
Like carrying multiple guns to increase your effective fire rate since you can just fire a different gun while the first is on cooldown.
It really sets Heat Signature apart from a lot of other topdown action games, since juggling an entire inventory isn't usually as feasible due to needing to actually spend time swapping or readying the item you need. Moreso than the timeslow, if you asked me, it just makes doing it easier on the player.
@@gamemaniac2013 Excellent point. You're absolutely right, being able to chain together item abilities is a huge part of the cool factor, and of the puzzle solving element. Your brain goes wild coming up with these crazy sequences of moves to clear a room full of bad guys, and then you feel like an absolute badass when you pull it off.
@@VoroxPete Using reversers on shields to make elite enemies accidentally shoot themselves, blowing out windows for emergency escapes or to clear out an entire room at once, taking over a different ship and completing your goal by blowing the target ship to pieces, ramming ships with the special pod that can destroy a room when moving at high speed to make your own entrance, there's just so many solutions to every problem and the only limitations are your inventory and your creativity
Good video, though I wouldn't call it "better". It's a solid sidegrade to Hotline, doing a lot of gameplay aspects better, but I think a lot of aspects about Hotline outside of its gameplay outdo this game. I'm a sucker for a good story, especially when it's told in a unique way; and Hotline delivers that way better, alongside how it delivers its atmosphere.
Edit: Ray changed the title to "Successor" which I agree with a lot more!
Yeah Ray seems to look at all the delibrate choices Hotline Miami makes as mistakes to be fixed
ESPECIALLY when he downplays the importance of the story.
@@kevinwillems8720I'm glad I'm not the only person who felt like this.
The doors being wonky and the enemies seeing you when you can't see them are understandable sources of frustration, but the other stuff is a bit less cut and dry.
I don't think that dying in one hit invalidates the weapon variety because it still influences when they are going to be vulnerable and it's not in keeping with the idea of a frenetic action scene for the protagonist to stop and ponder over what weapon they want to pick up.
The game is about reflexes and learning the level layout, so the bare bones aspects of the game reinforce that by not letting you step away from those priorities and rewarding skillful execution within those limitations.
It still feels like there's a solid middle ground between the minimalist gameplay design of the Hotline Miami and this more sophisticated, but also more forgiving and less tightly designed approach to the idea.
I do think that this is probably as good a job as one could do to make a Hotline Miami rogue like, but it's pretty antithetical to the intended design of the inspiration to have the randomised levels and not have the gameplay serving a narrative function (at least in the original, your inability to comprehend the bigger picture was paralleled by the characters you played and the second game's attempts to directly tie the gameplay to the narrative, whilst not always creating the most enjoyable experiences, were a continuation of that)
@@casanovafunkenstein5090 and there's also enemies that don't go down in single hit. Some might take a hit and eventually bleed out, but optimally you're dumping 5 rounds from a smg or giving a point blank shotgun blast.
@@casanovafunkenstein5090 but the thing is those "frustrations" aren't bugs, they're features. Hotline Miami 1 is just as much a puzzle game as it is a reaction one, and hotline miami 2 is more puzzle than reflex.
Also the door is an actual object in the world. You can open the door by shooting it.
I tried it but man, without the instant death and restart it just doesn't hit the same or even similar. I wish good luck to the dev but I had to refund.
This is framing as of the frustrating things in Hotline Miami weren't delibrate. Like the story wasn't critical, and how so many of these games trying to be Hotline Miami seem to delibrately miss the point of Hotline Miami.
That goes double for Hotline Miami 2.
The AI doesn't register enemies dropping next to them because
*checks notes*
story?
@Raycevick because you're treating like the whole game is just reflexes, instead of a puzzle. 2 doubled down on this. They say it themselves in the hints (tip: enemies are predictable). It's not a standard top down shooter, and treating it like one is how you'll stop enjoying it.
...but I enjoy Hotline Miami?
@Raycevick I didn't say you didn't.
Are you not saying I'm treating it as a standard Top Down Shooter and thus will stop enjoying it?
Edit: ray is a total chad and reaponds well to critique. Though i don't believe in removal of records so im going to keep this comment up, but if you stuble apom this know i no longer have any issue with the video. for context the original title of the video was "finally... a better hotline miami"
I agree with everything you said in the video but the title is just arrogant and disrespectful. oxto isn't better Hotline Miami. hotline maimi is the best hotline miami. oxto is the best oxto. don't be disrespectful of artists, you're better than that. you are both saying oxto devs are copy cats and hotline devs are hacks when you say an art piece is just another art piece but better. if you would have called the video "finally... a successor to hotline Miami" I wouldn't have made this comment.
I'm gonna try that, the title is something I went back and forth on several times, was considering even a Patreon poll, but at a certain point, I was just relieved to have a video finished at all after so many personal delays.
@@Raycevick wow. Way to earn my respect good sir
@@Raycevick tbh, the old title is what got me to watch this video faster. Yes, it's clickbaity (and from what I saw in the video, this game is as much of Hotilne Miami, as Katana Zero, maybe even less), but it did get me to watch it now, instead of saving to watch later (I don't think, I would watch it now with the current title).
If you want a top down shooter that goes in a different direction that hotline miami yet is very clearly still an evolution of it with its own unique focuses, I'd heavily recommend you try out Intravenous. Enemy AI is both complex and fun to play with, and the amount of unique approaches you have to any given situation are seriously empowering and cool.
Intravenous is cool but it strays so far from the Hotline Miami formula, that it's a better recommendation for Splinter Cell fans than Hotline Miami fans.
Still, good recommendation. Maybe someone here is more up for stealth games anyway.
i like hotline but i dont like what it did to twin stick shooters especially when also combined with roguleikes like issac and gungeon i just wanna huff glue and shoot stuff the best indie twin stick shooter is ubermosh omega
From the few seconds you played the OST, I instantly purchased it as my new Gym playlist. It's EXACTLY the kind of thing I love.
I did the same thing! lol
27:13 Raycevick you hit the nail on the head. I think more games should strive to be like movies where if I have a day off, I can just play that game in one sitting. Action games I think should live by that creed, everything is slowly just turning into a mushed grand adventure that I lose interest in no time because it is simply just too much.
SuperBunnyhop's first video on Rage vs DOOM always stuck with me; don't make a story driven game if your story isn't very good.
The boomshoot resurgence has been a healthy sign for the return to more focused experiences. Realistically it was only ever going to come from indie, a game that is one thing as well as can be is just not something you see when larger budgets get involved.
That's why I've beaten Titanfall 2 so many times: it's a delightful afternoon of a game. The perfect length to bring you back for another go.
Ray is about to launch this game into the stratosphere and from what I've seen I'm all for it
I feel like trying to change the way Hotline Miami controls changes the way its played HLM isnt about precise movement or anything like that, its meant to be reckless and constant and you're meant to be adaptable. I dislike trying to change that way its played as it'd make it feel entirely different.
This just sounds like an excuse for why it's okay that the HM games have messy, floaty and difficult to control movement mechanics.
I think HM2 polished the movement significantly by adding some actual momentum to the player characters but HM1s movement is just outright bad.
Besides, having uncomfortable controls that you can't trust would discourage reckless gameplay as you'd be too busy wrestling with your characters movement to really play aggressively and start taking chances.
If you successfully managed to develop an aggressive playstyle in HM1, it is only despite it's movement, not because of it.
@@Xamp1256 I reject your opinion and will not elaborate
@@bogginggmonster5829 Then don't fucking comment. I mean, you can have your opinion, but why bother making a comment disagreeing, providing no actual good points, and then reply to someone's comment, just to say "lol don't care".
@@Xamp1256i never felt like i was wrestling with the character, they are really responsive, the characters are obviously really fast, same as the enemies, and the sensitivity is high, but thats what makes it fun, you have to set up a rough plan for a level and then try your best to execute it while managing all the unpredictable stuff that happens, it forces quick thinking with the whole weapon changing that he mentioned.
He also, for some reason complained about some glitches and presented them as features.
I wouldn’t call Hotline Miami primitive. In fact I’d say it’s almost designed to be timeless.
"Preserving early traits" is one of the meanings of "primitive"
Yeah him shitting on Hotline Miami is kinda weird. Because at the end of the day I've heard of Hotline Miami and havent heard of anything else in this video that tried to emulate it. Maybe its greatness is in its simplicity.
Well primitive isn’t inherently a negative trait. Donkey Kong is a classic arcade game but you’d be silly to say it isn’t primitive compared to the platformers today or even Super Mario Bros 4 years later. Primitive just means it’s less advanced, it’s simple. There’s a lot of good in simple, but simple means it can also be expanded on and made more advanced
@@SuperBKDK , you know, great things can still be imperfect. And there's nothing wrong with critiquing the aspects that can be better. "Shitting" is an awful term there. Why reduce the discussion to a boolean?
The experience of having a long run ended by a bullet three rooms, two windows and a door away is definitely a uniquely hotline experience. Wouldn't say I'd ever want it repeated, but I see your point.
Nover played Hotline Miami, the game doesn't interests me. And that's ok, there are plenty of indie games i love, like Terraria, BeamNG, ETS2, Little Nighmares 2, My Summer Car, Undertale and much more. People sometimes really underestimate indie devs.
Ok, OTXO seems really fun, i'll probably buy it
Congrats, you just made this Dev a lot of money. Also welcome back!
All the negative things mentioned about Hotline Miami is what i love about it.
Now I wonder how Ray would feel about ULTRAKILL.
I saw your comment on the OTXO OST video and I was hoping you'd drop a review on the game.
It's nice to have someone with a similar experience as myself put my feelings when playing this game into words.
Fantastic!! Everything about your work is with such care and effort, i could watch a 40-60min video of you discussing housebrick design :D Glad yer feeling better too ;)
Didn't expect Titanfall 2 to make an appearance! It's been getting some updates from the Respawn janitor lately!
Love the video! Gonna grab otxo for me and some friends - we played Hotline Miami on a PS Vita a while ago on a trip, I think they'll love it too!
Yeah, okay, keeping an eye on this for if it goes on sale on Steam, looks like a blast.
It's nice to see a game that knows what it wants to be, and just... is that. It doesn't try to be a variety show of mechanics and gameplay segments, instead focusing entirely on its core gameplay loop to make it as enjoyable and challenging as possible while minimizing frustration.
And honestly, a top down shooter is perfect for a rougelike loop. Nothing like getting a god run going and demolishing, just to get your arse handed to you for the next 5 runs afterward because you're still in the mindset of that amazing synergy build you had going earlier.
The game looks cool, but a lot of the points you made are true of several other roguelikes as well. This seems like it was just the first roguelike to really capture you, whereas the likes of Gungeon, Isaac, Dead Cells were for many others.
What about Heat Signature? Feels like no one knows about heat signature despite it being a really good roguelite with the same gameplay as hotline miami, but also you have a million creative gadgets and interesting puzzle like levels that lead to infinite possibilities with both how you make your character and how you approach ships with that character. Its probably the only roguelite I know that pulls off one hit instant death and doesnt feel unfair or frustrating
Glad your doing OK Raycevick.
I don't know you but I wish I had friends that I could talk to about the gaming industry as in depth as you do.
No other Content Creators make me jump like a kid when I see a notification for a new video.
Your videos are some of the highest quality on the platform and I hope I can continue to see more for as long as you can stand it.
And no matter how long the gap between videos, I'll always be looking for the your next.
Stay Healthy ♥
Sometimes I wish I could nerd about all of the things about gaming that I watch or read about. Most people though just prefer playing the games and don't really care about innovation or the state of gaming as a whole. Oh, well.
y'know, your gameplay description is what lategame Synthetik feels like to me - the right weapon, the the right items and upgrades...
And it's just a bloodbath, a glass cannon powertrip, gritted teeth while holding down full(er) auto...
I might have to check this game out!
The quote at 4:08 is a recurring thing I keep seeing, and it bothers me when people say "I made X game in X days, and it's already better/has more than X game ever did", which ignores the amount of iteration that a studio does to reach the final product, and just looks at it as a matter of addition. It sells the thing they're talking about short to make themselves look better, which is a pretty shitty thing to do. Great video though!
The only thing I've hoped to compare to my experience with hotline are the unreleased fan "sequels" in the form of 1-900-CULT and The Patriots
I'm definitely going to be buying this game, thanks for making me aware of it :)
Anybody who has ever been any good at hotline miami knows that playing from the corner of a room isnt fun nor is it the optimal way to play. The score system rewards the player for killing as many enemies as quickly as possible and chaining kills. I think otxo would succeed way more if it didnt use the monochrome style, the reason miami was so successful was because it had such a memorable aesthetic and story not because it had the best gameplay, sad that this otxo game doesnt have the same...
I always recommend Redeemer. It's arguably more primitive and stilted than Hotline Miami, but something about being able to switch from shooting to melee seamlessly without dropping your weapon is INCREDIBLY satisfying.
Also, buying this game immediately
Bro we starving, come on already!
Bro I'm so mad at you for the last part of the Q&A I'm about to up my patreon level out of spite
I'll have to thank Sparky.
Man, I wish I could like this game as much as you do, you honestly make it sound great...
The problem for me is, while OTXO's action hits the level of highs I got from Hotline Miami's, what really prevents me from putting it on the same shelf is when you die. Sure, you've got a health bar so you can last through a level longer causing more havoc and painting walls with galleons of red, but as soon as it empties and that gong sound rings, you're jerked back from the adrenaline rush flowing through your veins like the braking system on a roller coaster, and have to spend twenty to thirty seconds looking through the bottle selection before getting back into the action, or a minute plus if you choose to wake up outside and fish. It doesn't sound like much, but when HM lets you go back into the action with just a button press, that delay takes me right out of it enough that I only play a couple of rounds rather than slam the continue button like it's existence personally offended me and restart the same room.
If that's the case, I'm surprised you lasted through Hotline Miami 2's extended story sequences.
Excellent point, especially since I haven't touched either since 2015. I guess I just got less patent with age.@@Raycevick
Edit: Y'know what, thinking about it, even the original HM had some slow moments that dragged everything to a crawl that I just memory holed into oblivion, like that damn hospital escape bit with no weapons... I should probably try the games again to see if I can get the same sort of rush I remember I used to have...
I love how Otxo's camera is centered between the cursor and your player. it makes such a difference compared to whatever hotline miami does.
It reminds me of a lot of old flash games
It's basic game design knowledge to not anchor the camera to the character you're controlling. Hotline Miami is indeed extremely crude and rudimentary.
@@necromax13 i wouldn't agree that there is a prescribed formula for developing a good game... the boundless, infinite canvas of your imagination is what makes game design so much fun. maybe Hotline Miami is so much fun _because_ of some of these "crude" and "rudimentary" decisions. the sum of every small decision is the game itself. who knows - maybe the dev knew something you don't. Did you know the human brain can interpret photoimagery 60,000 times faster than text? i design my games around that very simple principal but many ppl wouldn't know it unless they were told - nor would they understand its relative contribution
@@Retrofire-47 that's literally your opinion going against what actual, decorated game developers say.
@@necromax13 Explain why everyone loves Hotline Miami then -- if its design was so egregious?
I saw that Title change you cheeky bastard.
It's listed in the description?
@@Raycevick That it is, I was just trying to make a joke either way, not be insulting, Sorry tone doesn't come through text and I should've made it more obvious xD
@@StilesReviewsDon't sweat it. Your humour was there in the original comment. I hate when RUclipsrs respond to comments that way
@@oiyile1971 I understand it. I've gotten some comments in the past I wasn't sure of, but I do appreciate knowing that someone did see it as a joke xD I really wasn't trying to be rude.
it's cool that you feel this way lucas, but HUH????
not going to bash otxo on anything but the screen shake and the OST (which is seriously dull).
I'm just going to say wow: what tastes do you have in music that the lamest lowest effort Carpenter Brut copycat gets you going this much? Also, as a reviewer, what's up with your ongoing contradiction between innovation or reiteration??? Like what do you want? Devs to innovate or devs to work on familiar and abandoned concepts? Specially in this era of buzzword game genre development, where indie devs are just constantly trying to one up each other whenever a new trendy style of game comes out, and stuff like rogues and boomer shooters are already beaten to a pulp, you wishing for devs to "explore concepts of yesteryear" sounds to me like you either are disconnected from the current gaming landscape (and when i say current i mean the last decade lol) or you don't play enough games.
Otxo looks cool and probably plays alright for the people that have an itch for that, but cmon man, if a cromulent soundtrack and "gun go boom and screen goes brrr" is what gets you making videos, when we have games that have all but perfected the elements, genres, and mechanics you're praising here... I dont know what else to say.
Calling Hotline Miami primitive feels a bit like an insult when it was deliberately a rather simple game.
Btw none of the games you mentioned are "roguelikes". A roguelike is a turn based dungeon crawler, not a shooter or a platformer. These games can be referred to as rogue-*lites*
Really? Enter the Gungeon or Spelunky aren't Roguelikes? Most don't take the game as being a replica of Rogue itself to be "like" it at this point. Rogue-lites have sources of meta progression that make you stronger over culminative runs.
@@amcname8789 yes, those games are definitely not roguelikes. Games like Cogmind, Caves of Qud, Angband, ADOM, ToMe, are roguelikes.
Came back after buying and finishing the game. I did it in my first run, for which I'm fairly proud of myself, but I can honestly say it's crisp. Weapons sound and fell incredible, gameplay is mint. I haven't unlocked everything yet, but I can't wait to jump back in. My first clear of the game was about 4 hours. Incredibly fun game.
Amazing video as always, Raycevick. One minor criticism though as per the beginning of the video. You were describing the aspects of what Indie was as what you remembered. You expressed Indie meant "retro" where, I understand what you mean, "Indie" originally solely meant developed by someone outside of a larger parent company; self developed, self published, and self funded. This, of course, was regardless of the style.
As someone who was in the sphere at that time, I can assure you, there was a period where any Indie game that was being talked about was some in sort of neo-retro genre and you had to be fairly low to the ground to get anything else.
@@jerrycan1756 what period lol? around the cave story era there were no indies, basically, and modding was the era's equivalent to indie game development (and we got Dota and CS from that era), then we got the boom for the indies, right at the end of the 00s, pixel art retro nonsense wasn't our bread and butter (and the big hitters weren't retro AT ALL, specially Braid looool).
neo-retro genre what the hell
I'd argue mandalore's channel is practically built on the "Vicarious experience" genre. Which is fine, better to at least see it if not play it, but it was jarring for me to be invested by a video, buy and play the game and then realize his taste does not align with mine in the slightest, and I doubt it aligns with many, hence the appeal of the games he chooses to present.
Finally... A New Raycevick Video.
if anyone is looking for a great iteration on the hotline miami formula i recommend heat signature, its made by the same guy that made gunpoint
Imagine my joy when I realize you list all the media used in the description.
Imagine my disappointment when I realize the media list doesn't cover the Q&A section and I wanted to look up the short "I know what you want!" clip used in the Q&A section.
Life can be brutal sometimes.
Show's Chainsaw Man, character is Kobeni. It's such an iconic scene, you can find it by itself on YT.
@@Raycevick Ah, thank you very much! Seems like I was completely wrong then since I expected the clip to belong to something with Satoshi Kon vibes.
Edit: And I just realized she actually says "I know what you are!" Not that it makes a difference, but I still find hilarious how it can be misheard solely due to the screaming since that would never happen if it was just spoken at a normal cadence.
It looks like a nice game, but its missing a bit more of color. And it doesnt have something that hotline does. Atmosphere.
it's not the same genre, but katana zero takes quite a lot of inspiration from hotline miami. have you played it? and if yes, how do you feel about it? and if no, go play it
It's honestly way better than the game featured in this video lol: It's not a roguelike, has a great artstyle, intertwines game mechanics with the narrative at play (!), has an interesting dialogue system (!!), and has a varied and well used soundtrack.
8:28 Are you sure this is how shotguns really fire?
I'm talking about sound.
I didn't watch the video yet, but that is a bold claim
I THOUGHT THIS WAS JUST GONNA BE A VIDEO ON HOTLINE MIAMI 2 LMAO
That would be a Years Later video lol
I love hotline miamis gameplay , really want to try this one out, thanks raycevick 👍
Enjoy your review, still sad how muddied the term "roguelike" has gotten. Gives me that 'shaking old man stick' feeling of 'back in my day they were randomized grid-based, turn-based dungeon crawlers!'
My only gripe so far is that I have to drop my gun so that the bartender will let me get a drink. The interaction of drop gun - get a drink - pick up gun takes me out of the action a bit too much. Not that it makes the game bad, but if you want me to do this all the time just to establish that the rose room is a "civil place" and have the drinking animation play, is it really worth it to have those in the first place? Just give me the same screen Hotline Miami 2 had when you pick masks whenever I get to the point where I get the upgrade. It'll be way faster, and won't break up the gameplay too much
I agree.
After a while some elements of the game do start dragging the pace down on subsequent runs.
The whole process for buying drinks, as you mentioned, but also the unskippable level title cards and the just slightly too tanky, yet easily beaten first boss.
Asking the dev to cut the fat from a game that's already this lean and laser-focused seems a little ridiculous and yet I still kind of want an ADHD mode that puts the controls in your hands as fast as possible and skips every non-controllable segment.
Edit: fixed a typo
@@Xamp1256 Agree 100%
I also feel a bit insane asking to streamline the process even harder, but having a NON-STOP checkbox somewhere in the settings would be absolutely fantastic
Hey Lucas, you have to take a look at MIDNIGHT FIGHT EXPRESS.
This game is unbelievably underrated.
Hotline Miami meets John Wick meets My Friend Pedro. This is the most John Wick I've felt in a game by a good margin.
Please give it a try, how is this game so good.
Yep, another game with a great OST
Good to see you back in action Ray. I don't blame HM2 for not iterating on the gameplay -- that was never to point of _anything_ Cactus has worked on -- but it's good to see people jumping off it so well. Also don't worry about speed limits when you drive in BC, the limit is always "what the guy in front is doing"
the madness combat game we didn’t know we wanted but needed
You won't be able to change my mind that Hotline Miami 2 is one of my all time favourite games
what really made me love hotline miami is its story and how even when it comes to story telling they took it with creativity, you really feel like a murderer ignorant to everything to what is really happening behind all the killings
I wouldn’t describe Hotline Miami as janky, it’s more… wonky? If that makes sense.
What's the difference?
@@RaycevickTbh the 2 words are probably interchangeable, but when I hear janky I think mechanics that are implemented but don’t function smoothly or correctly, so wonky is more like, “This works and is mostly smooth, but something still isn’t quite right.” This is probably me overthinking words, but jank just doesn’t feel like the right word for Hotline Miami. Also thank you for blessing us with a new vid it was absolutely worth the wait.
Jesus did you and whitelight conspire to release your works together?
My little heart can only take so much awesome ya know?
He and I are one.
I don’t care how long it takes Raycevick to upload. The videos are always excellent. Keep doing what your doing. Your work never fails to be thought-provoking.
Alright. Alright. Fine you win, I'll check out here 9:13 and be back after I've played the game.
Subbed👌👏
Edit: Just finished the game 3 times now. It was fantastic
I've been wanting a top down shooter that evokes Hotline Miami's intensity. This seems like it not only does that, but also refines and surpasses it. Looks like this is the one.
I'm also normally not one for roguelikes so this is very interesting to me.
A few remarks do put me off though- you mention that being 'too cautious' is detrimental, and that there's no stealth missions. What's the point of all those lovely suppressed weapons then, if there's no stealth elements?
They are quieter, giving you more space to react, and one of the drinks will make them completely inaudible, which is how I was able to finish my first run.
Neat, thanks for the... Idk if it's appropriate to call it a review. The amount of glowing praise make me feel like it's a promotion) must be a really good game 🤔
Yes, the indie solo-gamemaker dev bought me a Ferrari.
dude literally made this video hoping it would convince the dev to make DLC
Welcome back Raycevick, you've been missed. Time to add this game to the wishlist.
Alternative title: Finally... a Worse Ruiner
In an older longer cut of this video, I had Ruiner on-screen when talking about games that have a different feel in gameplay.
@@Raycevick Ruiner definitely feels similar to me, not entirely the same but i'd put them in the same category, i think Ruiner has the slight edge over Otxo but they're both fantastically addictive
I think you are too praising of this game and only pay its flaws lip service. Weapon pickup is still buggy, melee is a joke that has the enemy running literal circles around you, killing enemies with doors is an outright lie, the huge sight lines with the stationary machine guns are a nightmare, the stationary machine guns themselves are a death sentence and make any gun nearby unobtainable, more of the perk liquors are buggy (grenade prince; kill an enemy with a grenade, get a grenade - except sometimes you don't and you have to negotiate with the five armed men who took exception to your organs), shotguns are little more than a polite request to kill the enemy unless you have something buffing them and even then your pellets might be allergic to the guy two feet in front of you, the level design is made to break your combo with backtracking half the time, the color pallet has gotten me killed by the unreadable environment having me stuck on some grey blob, the acid pools render underneath any bloodstains. I'm sure as I continue to play I will find more baffling problems.
Even on it's own merits as a rouge like, it fails. After a couple dozen runs, I have unlocked three new guns from the stupid gatcha game, and a handful of liquors which I never saw again. Progress is nonexistent. There isn't much incentive to try again because so much of the fun stuff you only get to play with for a little while, then never see again. Where it does try to rise above HM, it falls elsewhere and I believe it ultimately falls short.
Well said. This video reads like an ad trying to be the next "halo killer" of hotline miami; a game so barebones and simple it works on a lot of levels, while this tries to cram more into a genre that doesnt need overstuffing. HLM transcended being just another game, it became an icon, and this video sounds like it wants to paint HLM in a negative light for a sales pitch for this game.
welcome back
good to be back
i have such a love for hotline miami, i literally get chills hearing some of the tracks from that game, and otxo is the only game that has come out to feel like a true spiritual successor, gameplay wise and soundtrack wise (to me, at least.) would love to see a vinyl for the games soundtrack. also, whatever game your friend from the interview is making, i need that lol
I tried to do Super Meat Boy similarly: "Remnants of Naezith". It got 95% positive 435 reviews. It was unfortunately released at the same time as Celeste 😄 Awesome video!
I dunno man, this all just comes across like someone explaining why "Yngwie Malmsteen is actually the best guitar player of all time". Looks like its full of systems and fixes a lot of the jank, but lacks so much of what made Hotline Miami special.
Ray, making me buy another game this month wasn't expected but here we are. Thank you for this. It's all you promised and even more. Continue your awesome work!