Herman Karsten pointed out an error on my side for the Tesla Power Wall. I used the continuous power output and not the capacity therefore the 4 x Power Wall setup will go double the range 20nm at half the cost of the Victron! Well spotted! Elon wins again :-) For now, I will use the diesels while keeping an eye on improvements in this area of energy storage and energy generation. But most importantly, I never owned a boat, I never had to worry about boat things and weather things, and things like this. So, for now I think it would be great to focus on what I do not know (experience), rely on trusted diesels, and then in a year’s time, rethink all of this when I have experience and can form my own opinion 😊 PS: I am adding the links as reported below, to the description
Rigging Doctor has an electric motor. Their range is minimal on batteries alone. They now run a Honda 2000 generator in order to get them about 2 knots of sustained power. I think Diesel is a better option on long passages. If you are a bay sailor electric might be the way to go, otherwise you will be stuck without the means to burn fuel. Even with solar panels, etc. Also you might consider Carbon Foam batteries made in SA....about 80-90 of the capabilities of lithium for 30-40% of the price.
Thank you, Allyn! Will look into that batteries. Yes, I am aware of Rigging Doctor and there issues with range and speed. There are those G-Force 2000 super performance cats out there with all carbon fiber bodies, carbon fiber masts, honeycomb resin hulls, etc. They weigh half the weight of cruising cats, I guess less than 9 tons. I mean they are able to generate 2 x 6kW of charge with the hydrogen capability of the electric motor, but then, they are sailing at 26 knots! Awesome cats!
Thank you, Allyn! Will look into that batteries. Yes, I am aware of Rigging Doctor and there issues with range and speed. There are those G-Force 2000 super performance cats out there with all carbon fiber bodies, carbon fiber masts, honeycomb resin hulls, etc. They weigh half the weight of cruising cats, I guess less than 9 tons. I mean they are able to generate 2 x 6kW of charge with the hydrogen capability of the electric motor, but then, they are sailing at 26 knots! Awesome cats!
The Tesla Powerwall has 13.7 kw of useable power which means that the batteries are bigger. 2 Powerwalls would give you 27 kw of useable storage. Lead acid batteries can only use 50% and survive so that is the equivalent of 54 kw of lead batteries. The biggest thing to know is that they contain a 5 kw charger and a 5 kw inverter. They also have a BMS and heat exchanger so you can discharge quickly and charge quickly unlike lead batteries. I have calculated that my catamaran at 56 ft in length should cruise at 5 knots for about 5 kw of power. I am a big fan of the Rigging Doctor but he uses lead batteries which means he has very limited range. He can also only pull small amounts of power without damage to his batteries. With the 2 Tesla Powerwalls, you could cruise at 5 knots for 5 hours. With the right setup, you could use solar and/or a generator to get range. My boat will have no rudder as the steering will be done by using a computer to change the speed of the propellers on each side of the boat like a quad copter. I will be able to steer with a joystick, autopilot or my iPhone.
Thanks for making this video. From what I understand from others who have converted from fossil fuel engines to electric, the big differences are no smell, little if any noise and if natural power sources (solar\wind\hydro) plus storage (batteries) are used, the savings after initial cost to buy and install are exponential. I recall reading about one couple who were cruisers sailing all over the world who said they only had to purchase 50 gallons of fuel (for their generator) over a years time after converting to electric motors.
Frik, As mentioned here a few weeks ago I was going to charter the new VOYAGE 480 electric cat (ELECTRIFIED) from Voyage Charters in BVI. Well I did, and as a result have decided to buy a new 480 Voyage with the oceanvolt system. I have spent the last 2 days with the folks from Voyage talking through details and options. I will do a detailed report and video on Electrified once back at home, but as a soon to be full time cruiser I am happy with what this boat was about. It works, just fine, in fact it was great to sail her for a week with 10 pax on board and deliberately stressing the system to the extreme with 4AC's all day on, watermaker running a lot as we all took long regular showers, electric water heaters, electric winches, electric furling Genoa, etc. The system kept up just fine, I will be ordering my boat with a few minor changes but the week long test aboard sold me. Finally a new dawn in sailing....
Great to hear! We just completed a 3,900nm passage and crossed the doldrums. I am 100% sure I would not have been able to cross it with electric motors. I do not have the same battery capacity, but I sure did use 700L of diesel throughout the passage... But keep me posted, I would love to go full electric with no diesel on board!
Silent Yachts 55', 65' and 80' catamarans. Options are 100 % solar, solar/hybrid, solar with conventional sails (55') or with solar with a kite sail. This is the future. Great video thanks! I'm following.
By far the best analysis of the problem of using electric motors on boats. On the other hand, the new and very large cruise ship are all using electric propulsion but using generators to power then propulsion systems. I agree with the other comments, by far the best analysis of the current problem of electric motors / batteries. The problem could have been described more easily by just looking at the energy density. Facinating
lol, thank you, Nicolas for watching and the kind words! Yes, density is the key, but I thought let us try to make it practical and graphical in the terms boaters are used to :-) I know for the technical or chemical inclined, it was boring :-D I agree, until they find a way to increase batteries' capacity to store (and still provide large amounts of) energy, I would say hybrid is the way to go. DC genset and lots of Lithium.
lol, thank you, Nicolas for watching and the kind words! Yes, density is the key, but I thought let us try to make it practical and graphical in the terms boaters are used to :-) I know for the technical or chemical inclined, it was boring :-D I agree, until they find a way to increase batteries' capacity to store (and still provide large amounts of) energy, I would say hybrid is the way to go. DC genset and lots of Lithium.
I was a little shocked when you said you would get only 2 hours of sail drive with all these batteries. Electric propulsion still has a long way to go. However, I can easily see a situation where you replace the diesel engines with electric propulsion and one big generator (on the other hand why replace the redundnancy of two motors for only one). Add to that batteries and solar pannels....I think that's what they try to do on the Gunboat RUclips video. Right now your video is definitive. Electric engines on a large (20 ton) sailboat is not the way to go. The difference in range of 10NM and 800NM is a bridge too far!
Exactly my thoughts too. Someone mentioned I made a big calculation mistake, which I corrected in the pinned comment above, but still. I think the storage is the weak component. We need to get better storage, lighter, smaller (more condensed), and more capacity. This is happening, but at a slow rate. From the pinned comment, one can see that Tesla is pushing that frontier very hard. They have magnesium instead of iron in the Lithium Magnesium Phosphate...so, it is happening :-)
Hi Frik, very interesting comparison. You did not mention the weight of diesel drives versus electric drive. The 45HP Yanmar SD60 is 220kg plus accessories (alternators, etc). The Oceanvolt SD15 is 47kg and 14.4kWh of batteries (4 12v*300ahr ReLion) is 152kg for total of 199kg. The motor control and cables to connect everything would probably be less than 20 kg and the diesel accessories. That gives a total of 28.8 KWh of battery storage for a catamaran. Then there is the weight of a Genset (or two if you want redundancy). if the average saving on fuel with the hybrid drive is 33%, the 700 liters diesel tank would now be the equivalent of 931 liters (700* 33%=231 liters). The weight of 231 liters is 196.35 kg. A PolarPower 9-14kW generator is 153 kg and would easily power two SD15 drives and charge the batteries at cruising speeds. Two generators would easily drive both SD15 at max power and provide redundancy for a weight penalty of 110 kg for an equivalent range. I also agree that the 2 SD15 drives are probably too small for the Leopard 45. jerry
Ah, thank you, Gerry! Yes, it was mentioned before that I should probably add the engine vs motor weight to the diesel vs battery weight. But the moment you add any diesel and generator, one has to reduce the battery weight again, unless you want to argue that hybrid is still lighter? Anyway, I think Hybrids are the closest to get to clean energy, but for example, the Silent Yacht 55 has an option for 2x 250kW motors with a 100kW genset....that will take away all the advantages of saving weight wrt diesel vs batteries. My point was that when we look at diesel's energy density, then batteries still have a long way to come when one wants to go completely green i.e. no diesel on board. To drive the two 13kW motors in my example, one would require at least a matching 26kW (or more if you do not want the genset to overheat) genset, which is huge and is diesel thirsty...in our "one year..." video, I highlighted our experience with solar at 38N latitude in the winter....it is not even that high latitude, but we cannot get our batteries fully charged without diesel or shore power on 2.2kW of solar alone. The sun is way too low and too short in the sky for the solar to be efficient.
@@SailingSisu Hi Frik. I do believe the serial hybrid concept is the most "green" if you need/want range and/or speed beyond the limited energy density of today's batteries. Electric engines are most energy efficient and responsive, diesel is the most energy dense and stable fuel, and dedicated diesel generators are more compact and efficient converters of fossil fuel to electricity. Solar yachts (like Silent Yacht) and Wind yachts (sailboats) are great if you don't need to go far beyond the battery capacity and the Solar or Wind is not available or insufficient. If you need reliability and flexibility and want to be "greener" then hybrid is best solution today. Jerry
Hi Frik, are you going to use the engin water cooling system to heat fresh water? what about small storm Jib sail? what about ferling the main sail - using the beam? I looked at all your films - very nice thank's
Thank you for watching! Yes, the Leopard is using engin cooling system to heat water, but it also since we have Lithiums, it has electrical heating too. I am wondering about the storm jib, but no definite feeling around this yet. For now, we will just reef/furl the genoa a lot. I know Delos is using it and it looks awesome, the members on the Leopard or Catamaran groups using it are liking it (or some of the systems), but this is for me at least, a far away concept.
I'm a electrical and computer engineer, and I'm all for electric everything. BUT, battery tech has to improve another 5-10 fold in energy density before it can be a viable substitute for diesel engines in long haul (no real charging option in between) applications. As you showed, the energy is just not there. Also, to consider only 2x15kw can put you in trouble very soon. There is a reason to be using 40hp diesels and not 20hp diesels, and the reason is, sometimes you need those 80hp to overcome current, wind, chop, or any combination of the previous. Most of the time you are just fine with only 30-40 hp... on the other hand, electric is brilliant for a daysailer that only needs the motor to get out of the dock. cheers
You need to get hold of Scott at Sailing the Space Between. I am installing a 16Kwh Lithium battery pack on my Leopard 40 which we get in Feb 2019. That is a bank from a Chevy Volt (333Ah@48V). I am thinking that either a Volt engine or a Nissan Leaf engine 'could' be converted. Also, you may be able to contemplate a diesel/electric set up. You get rid of the yanmar engines and you keep the diesel generator. You end up getting rid of 2 of the diesel engines and reducing it to 1...the generator. Lower diesel use and maintenance. Many commercial vessels use this set up. Even with the generator running when motoring, your overall diesel consumption will be lower and your range will be a lot more.
The Hybrids are koowl and the best there is at the moment...The test would be to be able to run those motors for few days without cooling time or recharge time. We have no been twice in 6m breaking waves and 40+ kts of wind where we had to motor for 2-3 days without a break. Off course we took the hard way (80% upwind) going to the MED, which took us close to the section in the Doldrums where there is no wind for 600-700nm...we could just turn on the diesels and they run 24hrs for 5 days, no problem. The Rigging Dr stayed in the Northern Hemisphere and in the steady Trade Winds. I am sure you watched Delos where they sailed Namibia, St Helena, Ascension all the way to Brazil not using their engine at all, not even for dropping or lifting anchor! Crossing the Atlantic is very easy using the Trades, but try to sail 80 different latitude degrees without engine....or to rely on electric motors for days without a cooling of break... BTW, one of the reasons why we choose a cat was the redundency of having two motors...if the genset breaks, then you are in trouble if you need engines....
I'm building a 14,80 x 8 meter wide sailing catamaran and i been over al your links the past 4 years i think but with refurbisch Lithium battery's i will go electrical. I'm going to put in 2x 10kW BLDC 48 volt motors
Hello Rob My name is Bernie. I'm contemplating building a Waller 1480 or the 1160 stretched to 1200 with longer sugar scoops. I ran numbers on the 1480 and the 1200 fully electric powered. The Waller cats are much more lighter than all these mass produced catamarans Where are you building your 1480 Drop me an email at kbberny@gmail.com and I would love to share with you my calcs regarding the e-drives
G’Day Frik, what timing! I’m also looking at the journey of buying a catamaran and starting my own adventures. I to have been looking at the topics you have just posted. I noted that you looked at the range, weight and cost and your measure was mostly against a Diesel engine. I understand it was just theoretical analysis and it does show the massive range distance electrical verses diesel and running time of the batteries. 2 hours at 5 knots is not much and at all and trying to keep up the charge via wind, solar and generation just to maintain enough power to run the electric motors seems to be a situation where conditions have to be perfect. The other thing is supplying power to all the other appliances and equipment on the boat......... so maybe for now a hybrid solution is the way to go?...... I’m going to speak to boat works and see how Kato performing. Cheers Chris
Hi, Chris! Yes, one should actually also calculate saving in engine weight and add that for extra battery weight, but space is then becoming an issue. Hybrid yes, but then one fuel tank has to stay then...
Thank you for the kind words and thank you for watching! Yes, I try to keep a very open mind and also to be very realistic of the open mind :-D but I learnt that many people only think they are "most open minded" and that Frik is crazy :-D Anyway, watch this space, it is going to become very interesting ;-)
I think the answer would be hybrid boats and Catamarans using both liquid or natrual gas and electric engines. Thirty six years ago I was visiting friends in Sindelfingen Germany and at the time, Mercedes brought out liquid and natural gas hybrid cars, (the natural gas tank was located in the trunk) that Mercedes sold to the European market. These cars never made it to the States but the car I rode in worked just fine, problem free in Germany at the time.
Brain, that is a debate I don't get... I do get the thing of moving parts/gears vs shaft. What I don't see is the tens of thousands of SD owners complaining? Perhaps we should sail more than our 20,000nm to get the answer to that question 😅 perhaps that is a good topic for a video 😊
Carbon fiber mast and rigging versus Aluminium mast and rigging. Don’t see much difference for cats but stiffer more comfortable sail for monos. Of course carbon could be lighter so help cats with over all loading. Love to hear your thoughts.
Did you consider the weight saving from replacing two Yanmar Diesel engines with electric drives? I think even if you then add a diesel generator and a smaller diesel tank, you might still be ahead.
Very good informative talk thank you. I am very surprised about sailing uma's motor power they use a 36 feet boat with only 4.8kW at 36V, they use it at 48V so most likely kW is increased in such case. However it is still much less compared to what oceanvolt suggest 8.3kw for 36 feet. Also much more cheaper 125USD compared to 6000EUR :) So they destroy the saying of "initial cost of electric is expensive".
Thank you, Iza and Mazhar! Yeah, I follow them too! Lovely couple! Think then you saw the episode where the motor overheated in Ft Lauderdale and they had to overnight in the river before going on wards? The high volts and over sized boat are taking its toll on the motor, not IMHO a good combination in rough situations where one has to rely on the motor to get you through a rough time....
Hey Frik, have you looked at Silent Yatchs? Not a sailboat but fully electric. I see you looked at Moonwave, they have a fantastic system. Your issue seems to be around this notion of being fully self sufficient without ever using a generator but this is an unrealistic expectation. Even a Tesla Power Wall is connected to the grid and can use a generator if there is an extended black out due to bad weather. All electric motors and all batteries require recharging at some point and where this energy comes from will vary depending on where you live and recharge. Having a generator that you can use to recharge and extend your range will use way less fuel and still be better for the environment if that is your goal. In your weight analogy you take out a fuel tank but did not factor in the weight of the engines as these will also be removed, and electric drives weigh much less, plus you already have 4-8 batteries in your boat so you really will not be adding 12 new batteries. Ultimately if you want to change to fully electric you can you it is just a matter of how much you want to spend. Do not get hung up on having a generator as this is just like caring your own recharging station with you. There is no such thing as a fully self sufficient energy system, except many the Tesseract.
Thank you, Barry! Very good points you mentioned 😊 we do have 5x 200A for the house batteries and I have to say that we struggle to keep them above 30% with the 2.7kW solar and 800W wind gens. 30% is about what we use over night with two fridges and two freezers running with instruments and Radar. I am 100% confident that we would not be able to use the house banks for propulsion 😏 and then to keep those 2x 13kW motors running? A bloody big generator! So, yeah, replace the diesels with 'light weight' motors and one HUGE generator and we have to keep the fuel tanks... Currently, we have no generator on board. In short, we will then only add weight, not reducing weight further, whether I use a big genset or two diesels, I would be poluting' the environment 😊 not convinced 😅
Captain Frik, one of our 100% solar, silent E-catamarans recently crossed the Atlantic ocean. There was minimal use of the required by law single generator. It was a 64' but they also come in 46, 55 and 74'. If interested I shall send you much more details.
I have added most of the links from the comments to the description, but they keep on coming in. So, start with the description links and then scroll through the comments. There are quit a lot but most of the comments points to the same 62ft solar wave gunboat.
I'm also a big Tesla fan (have a Model Y, the stock....). The thing about Tesla battery packs for vehicles is that they are self contained, sealed with a very efficient cooling and heating that doesn't require the batteries to be open to the air (sea air). I'm curious where the whining noise comes from. My Tesla car is completely quiet except for wind noise. I think hybrid diesel/electric are already practical for boats. The advantage for electrical motors are 1. incredible torque and 2. it's quiet. (Personally I'd like to see a swing propeller shaft - so the hull can be flush. A diesel engine with an electric motor at the back as both a propulsion source and a generator. The way most times something like this is attempted it's off the shelf, too much friction - doesn't work. The way Tesla does something like this is they go back to first principles and engineer it from the ground up. )
We do not have an electric motor and after living for two years on a boat trying to keep our batteries full... Do I know we will also not have motors for a time to come. So, not sure about the winning noise, but I guess there are a lot of gears to reduce the torque and speed of the electric motors. Keep in mind that a propeller will cavitate much faster than wheels spinning on a tarmac 😉 you can put huge props on, but it means longer shafts, deeper drafts, and so on. You can perhaps go jet propulsion because you have more torque?
I know you have talked a lot about battery technology, but have you considered LiFePO4? It's far safer than Lithium ion in that it has no thermal issue and doesn't catch fire. A far safer alternative for use on a boat and doesn't need to be cooled
Uhm...that was my initial mistake. Li-ion is actually cumulative for all Lithium type batteries, including LiFePO4. Laptop batteries have much more Cobalt and if you followed Tesla evolution, you would have noticed that they reduced the Cobalt component. Anyway, Victron is LiFePO4.
sorry, in my haste, I missed it the first time through. You did mention them, My bad. I have to say, you have a very informative channel and are thinking things through and doing it the smart way. I like the Hybrid system with a decent battery setup. It's similar to how the Chevrolet Volt Car works.
Grant, no worries, mate! Yes, I am for sure looking at hybrid systems, but I did not take it with this theme into consideration, because I wanted to compare apples to apples... Or at least tried 🤔
I like your take on the electric motor... but if u sail shorthand or solo... it probably best if u choose electric motor than combustion engine.. any combustion engine has to many moving parts... electric motor have way more advantage of maintenance where you can plug and play as long as you understand soldering especially the rotor...
Putra, sure thing. My first degree is electronic engineering and I must say, today's electric motors have more electronics than I can handle. I am for sure not a mechanic engineer, but I diesels just work... For decades. Just change filters and oil on a regular basis and they will pull you out of difficult times. I took a deep and hard look at my Victron Lithium system and it scares me...
Cruising catamarans usually have about 600 to 1000AH or so of Lead acid or AGM Batts plus 2 engine start batteries and maybe another bank for Windless etc so this weight could be deducted from the weight of the Lithium Batts and of course, they usually carry a 6 to 10KV genset anyway, in addition to the deisel engines so the weight of having a 15 - 20KV genset would only need take the upgrade weight into account. The fuel load would only be reduced to say 15 - 25 percent for the genset of what you would carry to feed 2 deisel engines. And the weight of 2 Motors with drives compared with the weight of engines with gear boxes taken into account.
All advice I can give is this. Always keep whatever you plan to float, very simple. Complicated stuff bites hard later. There is a reason why the saying says, a boat is a hole in the water, that you keep on throwing money into. I even shudder at common rail diesels. Good old standard injector pump,mechanical injectors handle even dirty diesel to a point, just replacing one common rail injector can make your eyes water. One reason why some sail without motors. But that brave I am not,and also not experienced and skilled enough. Meet a yacht sometime ago, they been sailing now for the better part of 15 years around the world 3 times(they trade from their yacht), no motor,besides a air cooled genny.
oh wow! I must say, I needed my diesels a few times now. But we have been sailing 80 different latitude degrees, which is way much harder than sailing the Trades in the tropics.
Silent Yachts makes two catamarans which are CE certified Bluewater ocean crossing completely electric boats. They have a 55 foot and a 64 foot. They had them on displayed at the Annapolis boat show this year. I followed their development of that boat which they posted on RUclips. They circumnavigate it the planet on batteries and solar panel to prove it could be done. Awesome story.
Another option to look at might be Liquid Piston motor theu run on almost any type of fuel giving a World cruiser lots of fuel options and can be adopted to Electrical! Check them out!
I sincerely hope you respond to my request for attention to the detail of underwater appendages and their purpose and preformance . That also includes Rudder designs and drives. Thanks for the videos!
Great suggestion, Norman! The Leopard 45 has big rudders with propellors forward of the rudders, while FP has their propellors aft of the rudders...wonder what difference it makes?
I have a very good friend with 2 Phds, one in fluid dynamics and one in physics/mathematics. He thinks that the best combo would be to get a big enough generator and a big enough battery bank (preferably of the lighter kind since you are on a catamaran) with some solar panels to top them up. The electric motors can be powered off the battery bank and be supplemented by the generator when needed. The advantages of this setup is that you'll have essentially only one diesel engine to maintain. Moreover, the generator is much more efficient consumption and energy-wise (less energy is wasted from your fuel because generators are tuned to run at maximum efficiency unlike regular diesel motors that seldom run at their optimal point). You'll need probably to liquid-cool your electric motors to have them run for extended periods of time. This setup plus sailing would essentially give you a lot less dependence on fossil fuels (which I continue to support, but electric motors - especially brushless ones - are essentially maintenance free) and a very good range. A more silent propulsion as a very desirable bonus as well (with only the generator producing noise when used). On the cons side, you will not have the redundancy of two separate reliable diesel engines, just one, and maybe some cost issues. You can of course sell the two diesel engines that come with any boat and get a lot of that cost back. I wonder what others say about this idea. Cheers!
Thank you for the response! You are aware that we currently do have all of that... Namely two diesel engines with two 130A Alternators each😉 the idea was to get rid of fossil fuel and smelly noisy diesels
Look up Elko marine, they have been making electric boats for over 80 years and they have outboard and big inboard setups available now,and lagoon made a few electric catamarans in 2002,there is one one on you tube that still sails on the original setup it was for sale in Florida
@@SailingSisu I can believe that it was a crude system using big lead acid batteries and adapted industrial motors, there are many better setups out there now
@@SailingSisu I can believe that it was a crude system using big lead acid batteries and adapted industrial motors, there are many better setups out there now
@@SailingSisu I can believe that it was a crude system using big lead acid batteries and adapted industrial motors, there are many better setups out there now
yes, the gensets are commonly used as a range extender. When the batteries needs charging or needs fast charging, then you start the genset (so, you still need a diesel tank) to charge the batteries. I am thinking of a DC genset just to check out how much I would need it. My SCUBA air compressor and dingy engine will DC motors running from the batteries...so, I will start with that :-)
Great video although I believe you miscalculated the max range. You gave the max power rating for the motors when calculating the range of 9 NM, I wouldn't think for cruising you would need anywhere near the max power except in emergency and 1/4 - 1/3 power to get 5 knots might be more comparable to real world? I also believe total range is MUCH higher overall if you take into account how many miles you can cruise under power on and off over an extended time while filling the bank with Solar, Wind and regeneration when conditions are better for sailing. Last point would be most people have a generator in addition to propulsion you could use that to run hybrid mode for the times when you are becalmed for days.
Thank you, Keith. Yes, I mentioned in the description and pinned comment the mistake, but remember, I want to compare apples with apples to put this whole issue in perspective and what the real issue is. Batteries just do not store the same energy as diesel. True, one can hang around (as I mentioned) if it is safe, while waiting to charge while diesel will not charge, which was not the point of the calculation :-) the fact is, one can run out of batteries at a critical moment without capabilities to recharge quickly, while the diesel tank you know you have 800nm range.
Frik, at 19:45 you say 4x Powerwalls give you total 22kWh yet the Powerwall specs you showed earlier indicates 1 battery having 14kWh capacity. Why did you use 22kWh as total? To clarify I know very little about this topic except using storage batteries in my 4x4. Also Tony Grainger lists electric motors as options for his Raku range of cats. It might be worth having a chat with him. I totally agree with your findings, things still need to progress a bit further on this front. Love watching you guys. When you hit Australia, come look us up for a bit of biltong, beskuit and droewors.
My golly gosh goodness, Herman, you are spot on! Yes, I mistakenly used the continuous power output instead of stored power. Well spotted! Will put corrected calculations in the pinned comment.
Maybe filling the weight in difference between the diesel motors and electric with more batteries would give a boost on the Range. Also, going lower on the electric motor is more equivalent since it's more efficient in torque. So for a given RPM the electric motor could be much less than the diesel one. This would boost the range also.
thank you for watching, Lucas! both are good options and yes, the torque is awesome, however, even diesels have to turn down their impressive torque because of cavitation. That said...if you go through the comments, you will notice many viewers pointed to the solarwave gunboats and to "range extenders", which are basically a noisy smelly fossil fuel 13kW diesel generator :-) but it also brings back the weight :-( myself think that energy storage is still in the early developing phases and it will improve a lot. the motors? yes, make them more effecient, solar, make them more efficient, but the biggest one will be storage.
Hi, Matthew! not sure what you mean? bridge? if you talk about aft cockpit, then yes, we are going to put an enclosure up for foul weather, if you are talking about the helm station, yes, enclosure there too. If you talk about the saloon, then I guess it is like a room with doors, also enclosed straight out of the factory floor :-) hope this answers your question?
Use the solar panel to power superconductors that will run a motor and they can be charged up fully in 3-4 seconds and take 1 million + charges, compared to dirty lithium which would only take 1200 charges. And you would save on weight and space, And in the long run thousands, Because them heavy lithium battery rack will be needing replaced every 3-4 years outch!
I am following super capacitors, but as you mentioned, they are still getting into the picture, and there are not many devices that can charge 1000A in 3-4 seconds (except lightning). Myself is an Electronic Engineer who went over to the dark side of software engineering :-) but, please, give me the link to your sources for super capacitors (commercial, proven ones, not home made ones)
You and I think much alike about using electric drive motors. I think differently about how to achieve Nm range however by adding a 20 to 30Kw diesel generator range extender and reducing your battery bank to a generous size for the house needs. Solar panels and a windmill sized to the battery bank will charge this bank while at anchor and while under sail the electric drive motors can regenerate the bank. I rather like the Oceanvolt SD15 drive motors if money is no object. Most of the time those 15Kw motors will not need to use more than maybe 8Kw on each motor, unless your Cat is heavily loaded. I hope your ideas work out for you.....
Thank you, Ed! Yes unfortunately, fossil fuel is the only way to extend range. My objective was to say that if one thinks that replacing the weight of the fossil fuel with batteries, think twice. It is at the moment, inevitable that electric propulsion will add weight and lots of it. Performance cats being put forward, weighs less than 10 ton (can use less to sail) and can sail easily 25 knots (easy to regenerate) while cruising cats weighs up to 20 tons and sail in 25 knots of wind in exceptional conditions, 15 knots. Cruising cats will just get more heavy with electric propulsion. I will go electric route eventually, but with open eyes :-)
Yes, Lagoon is perhaps the biggest player and Leopard is perhaps their biggest competition :-) we saw the same optimization of storage spaces, but I like the new Leopard aggressive look 9ver the droopy look of Lagoon. 100% cosmetic choice there! Both boats are awesome.
A factor not seen in the comparison is weight of the motors. (i.e. the sum of fuel and motor vs. sum of battery and motor). While this will not reverse the imbalance it may move the pointer a bit.
I personally think that electric is only an option if you're going to spend most of your time under sail, then your panels and or wind turbine are topping up your batteries. Also as, you said, when doing more than 4.5 /5 kn you can generate power with your engine. So in theory your batteries should be topped up for when you need that bit of engine power to help you out of a tight spot. Another option would be a hydrogen fuel cell, but reliable supply of hydrogen could become an issue, unless you're prepared to sacrifice space on your boat to make your own hydrogen from seawater.... but again, that is dependant on you spending most of your day under sail. I do think it's the future of power on the water, it's just a matter of time.
Two Diesel engines for long-range motoring. Remember the boat gets lighter the more fuel you use. One power wall & enough solar panels to run the boat without a generator while at anchor or just sailing. When solid-state batteries arrive they will half the battery bank you need.
very astute observation! i only realized too late that the tesla powerwall could have been a good substitude for victron, but then again, they were not made for marine environment...further, they run at very differnt voltages optimized for 220VAC and I was uncertain wether I could convert to 12VDC... also, i upgrade my solar to 2.7kW and it is still not enough at the 40 latitudes to keep our 12kW lithiums at 100%...so, in practise...
Thanks for doing all the research and sharing your findings with us. You have a very good quality process one should do when buying a boat! ,,,,,/),,,,,
A Tesla 85 kw battery pack (from the cars) weighs 540kg and comes in 16 modules, which can be positioned under floors or the beds to spread the eight and keep the weight low and central..
Hi guys, Your weight numbers were off (see below). I made a weight comparison between diesel vs. electric: Weight of diesel system: Weight of electric generator 275 kg. Weight of two diesel engines 440 kg. Weight of 700 liters of diesel 522 kg. Total diesel system weight is 1,237 kg. Weight of the Torqueedo system: Weight of electric generator 275 kg. Weight of two 33 kWh engines 176 kg. Weight of high voltage 12.8 kWh batteries 147 kg. Weight of low voltage 2.7 kWh batteries 25 kg. Total Torqueedo system weight is 622 kg. Weight reduction is 615 kg. This includes the weight of motor electronics. I am not sure if this includes the weight of the inverters, DC to DC converters, chargers, etc., but I doubt it will be 600 kg. The Tesla wall by the way is 13.5 kWh. I hope this helps.
Thank you! Always wanted to calculate the full systems, now we have it. This is awesome. Not that the video was about that, I intended only to see fossil fuel versus Lithiums. But I see your calculations indicate that one would not be able to double the batteries (should one find space) which means that one will not even double the range on batteries only.
You are correct. This is not possible with the chemistry of those batteries and not with the current battery energy density, but check these video, and you might see a way to almost double the battery bank: ruclips.net/video/PvCOcBynlq0/видео.html The weight of the Tesla battery with four modules is 1,730 kg. for 80.3 kWh and 78.3 kWh usable. The weight of two of these modules is 865 kg. Subtract the weight of the Torqueedo high voltage and you are at around 715 kg, or a bit heavier in order to double the battery size. So, I agree with you this would not be the best approach for this boat. On the other hand Torqueedo or Oceanvolt do have vessels that have been in service for several years claiming a minimum of fossil fuel usage with their electric diesel generators. So, perhaps there is another approach. I cannot talk from personal experience in having installed an electric engine system, but I can see other people using them successfully as long as they allow an electric generator aboard as a backup mainly. In the final analysis, I admire what you guys are doing. This is a means to a goal. I admire your open approach in analyzing everything, and more importantly, I admire your decision to change your lifestyle for a happier and healthier way of living. If we meet one day, I will be honored to buy you guys a beer. Happy and safe sailing.
The problem isn't just battery weight, but the weight of the naked boat you're trying to move in the first place. Both a bicycle and a truck can transport a person from A to B, but when you're trying to move a truck with an e-bike engine, it doesn't add up. The electric concept makes no sense for a boat as heavy as 10 tons or more. *Let's for fun try a thought experiment and investigate what is the perfect concept for a (solar-)electric yacht:* _[sorry this ended up as a VERY long read... I got carried away and kept adding because the topic is so exciting ;-) let's hope some readers share the interest]_ As a rule of thumb, at least about twice as many kW solar peak-power per ton of displacement are needed in order to end up with a good performance under continuous autonomy. On the one extreme we see those little hydrofoiling carbon fiber Formula1-style racing boats in the Monaco Solar Challenge with more than redundant solar energy, while at the other end of the spectrum we have heavy luxurious liveaboard cats that by nature are at the very best anemic under renewable energy. Where is the middle-ground, performance- and utility-wise? Silent Yachts (Austria) is probably the company that has the most experience with building yachts with (solar-)electric propulsion (with traditional mast/sails/rigging or kite-sails only as options). Their boats are quite impressive (and just as expensive...) and can make sense in _some_ use cases like predominantly coastal cruisers (although advertised as "trans ocean"), but they are also prohibitively heavy, at least in the context of a solar-electric concept, which is why they're also hybrids with a backup diesel generator for "just in case" during ocean-crossings. Other companies like Soel-Yachts or AzuraMarine/Aquanima aren't doing much better. Even the PlanetSolar Tûranor, the first true solar boat that completed a circumnavigation under sun-power alone, had a relatively high displacement per solar-peak-kW ratio (89 tons/93.5kWpeak), probably as a consequence of its huge size (31x15 m) that required additional structural reinforcement. It's a vicious circle: heavy boat --> more kW needed --> more battery weight needed --> even heavier boat --> impossible to sufficiently recharge those batteries on the go with solar or wind power alone. Now imagine a 35-40 ft bluewater catamaran that doesn't displace more than ~ 4 tons, which is absolutely possible for a performance-oriented vessel with a smart foam-core sandwich construction (especially when you don't need to add weight for 2 heavy diesel engines, sails and rigging, not to mention that everything else like anchor chain, docking cleats etc can also be lighter for an already lighter boat). Something like 2x10kW Torqueedo-cruise outboards (~7500$ each; advantage of steered outboards: rudder weight+complexity+damage risk+extra drag+draft are obsolete) should be more than enough, even at very low throttle settings for a still good cruise speed. And because with solar it's all about efficiency rather than top-speed: the hull shape should stick to a displacement-type as much as possible, instead of semi-displacement-type with lots of inclined surfaces at the bow and a significant front rocker, like often seen in sail boats. In a solar-electric boat we wouldn't care about surfing on a strong downwind anyways, so we're not looking for any lift at all (any surface that creates lift also creates drag; top speed goes up, but efficiency goes down). Therefore an optimal solar boat hull would be closer to a flat-bottom kayak than a sailing vessel; no front rocker at all, sugar-scoops narrow below the waterline (=reserve boyancy mainly above waterline), combined with aft rocker to avoid a submerged transom. Btw: the steerable dual outboards, as mentioned above, have the additional benefit of improved maneuverability at slow speeds, compensating for the impaired maneuverability (but better tracking!) that would otherwise be the price of having no front rocker at all. With such a vessel now the overall concept works: it's possible to sufficiently recharge the batteries on the go while staying net neutral over the period of a typical 24h day. Let's say the peak solar power is 10 kW (e.g. 30 panels à 340W, which fit on a boat of that size, requiring a large flat roof of about 8.4x6 meters): even when you're only getting a third of the theoretical peak power (i.e. 3-4 kW), this is still enough to move such a light vessel at reasonable speed. And when the kW/h requirement is low in the first place, also less batteries are needed to make it through the night (at least at moderate speed). In reality, the solar output will be higher than the mentionend third of the theoretical peak power at least during the hours around noon, which is when the energy spent during the last night is recharged. As an example, a Pylontech US3000 LiFePO4 battery weighs only 32 kg for 3.5 kWh (@48V) each, as a complete package, including battery management (and can be found at around 1250 Euro each). Take about 8 of those (that's 28 kWh total) and it's already enough to make it safely through the night with such a light boat, without adding lots of extra battery weight. Much more makes no sense unless you're saving up energy in advance while staying at anchor, because there wouldn't be enough excess energy to recharge more battery capacity over the course of a given day while also being under continuous power. In higher latitudes or after very cloudy days, pausing (and sleeping!) for a few hours during the second half of the night (whilst holding positions with a large drogue deployed to avoid leeway) could be a better option than going very slow the entire night. This strategy would probably also depend on wether the seastate conditions require active management. Series drogue or para-anchor could serve as emergency backup for very rough seas at night under limited battery reserve. Nice bonus of all that solar area: it can double as a giant rain collector, so even the water tanks can be smaller/lighter for longer passages. In other words: the solar-electric concept has it's merits even as a standalone-propulsion with full autonomy, but not with something like a Leopard 45 or not with wide-beam demi-hulls, not with water-maker, aircon, washer-dryer and lots of non-structural furniture. On the other hand a solar-catamaran that has little more than electric engines, batteries+charge controllers, solar panels, anchor locker, furniture that doubles as structural elements and only the most basic appliances (head, shower, pantry): yes, it should absolutely be feasible to build this at
Wow! Thank you, Christian! This was now very informative! Yes, I agree with you. You have to build the boat around the solar specs and not the other way round. Weight is everything. Sisu's weight increased with almost a ton just by having the solar, solar support, batteries, inverter, BMS, Lithium under and over protection, busbars, kilometers of heavy gauge 12V wire, MPPTs, Chargers, Charger-Controllers, and monitor systems/networks. I guess another point is exactly what you said. You need a lot of solar, I mean a lot. We have 2.7kw solar and I rarely see nowadays over 900W coming in. In the first couple of months in Cape Town we never left the 100% charge, nowadays we have the run the engines (no genset) every third day to get the batteries holding through the night. I can already see me replacing the solar every few years or just be happy that their efficiency is deteriorating every month. Or perhaps it is the Lithium that is getting old and not so efficient anymore. I do not know, but we are now in our third year and our Lithium/solar/windgen system is at 60% of its initial performance. I thought it was the high latitudes, but we are now in Antigua and Petro already told me that we are at 30% again. We do not use aircons, we do not use the electric kettle, we do not have an induction plates. The biggest is our two laptops with big graphic processors, our cameras and drone batteries, and then the Battery Monitor and Management System itself.
@@SailingSisu Thanks for answering. I guess another part of the reason why solar efficiency can be diasappointing with sailing vessels is frequently being in the shadow of sails and mast. A few percent of shadow coverage are enough and the output of the affected panels will drop to almost nothing. Even the mast shadow alone (+radar, antennas...), with reefed sails, could be enough. I observe that with my RV, where I put 900 W peak onto the roof: I'm quite surprised by its high efficiency, even over here in german latitudes, but it's enough to be parked next to a street lantern and the panels in that narrow little shadow are temporarily dead. And keep in mind: connecting several panels in series like it's usually done in order to run the system under a higher voltage (=smaller wire gauge required, less losses within the wiring, higher efficiency in cloudy conditions) also implies that even if only a single panel is covered by a little shadow, all other panels in that series are 'dead', too.
@@SailingSisu Slight correction regarding my thought process for the last sentence: the bypass diodes should deal with that (yet still, of cause _internally_ the cells in individual panels are also wired in series, so the problem with partial coverage remains unsolved). Okay.. I'll shut up now ;-) Have a nice day!
Excellent! Was wondering who will pick up that conversation :-) I think it is like diamonds...just a bit more sloppy process. Seems like certain elements like to bunch together (in ore or other forms) to form interesting elements, which turn into minerals.
the Us navy/ other navy's have used diesel electric motors for years. like since WWI. I am not going to jump to deep so anyone that jumps a pin point of the topic just know Im not writing a book even if the sort version is long. just because an electric motor is not likely going to be a full stand alone motor any time soon (outside of small/ race boats) does not mean it is not the way of the future. it just mean you have to mix the two (hybrid) and increase the range, and performance. lets use a 15 kw motor you have two of them and this becomes 30kw of power. 30 kw will move the boat at 9 kn this the range is 9 kn an hr (the hr is important soon) now a diesel uses two motors as well. the variables are to great to go to deep but lets say the 3YM20 and the said 15 motor at the same. the yanmar uses 1.4 over normal temp range. so thats 3 gph. Now lets move to hybrid and let us use that fuel burn to rate the engine. a small car turbo diesel that puts out 180-230 hp (130- 180kw) now our target is 45kw of power. again each engine is different so I will be using the chevy 2.0 turbo diesel. at 2700 rpms the rated shaft RPM that a 45 kw Stamford alternator calls for the 2.0 burns roughly 3 gph. now that thats out of the way lets do the math. scale distance traveled over 24hrs based on fuel burn. both travel 216 kn diesel engine burned 72 gals that day the hybrid burned 48 gals 8 of the hrs it is running on battery only. now I know you are saying but the weight this is solved by not thinking in the aspect of full hrs. if the batteries can only run the motors for 15 then the motor runs for 30mins. in the end the sum is always 24 hrs just more starts and stops but less weight. I will say the higher weight is less of an issue for the electric motor. this is cause this type motor is able to maintain high torque even in higher rpm. where a diesel loses the torque with every RPM great at low bad at high. gas bad at low good at high. electric good across. this is why anyone that uses a electric motor will tell you 15kw motor isnt equal to a 21 hp fuel motor. more like a 50/60 maybe even 70 hp.
I have got the same thought of converting to electric propulsion. But I fear - if you really want the same range as diesel provides - we have to wait a few more years until a) energy density in lithium improves b) costs are coming way down by cheaper materials used in these cells and bc of mass-production c) fuel cells (e.g. methanol based or propane) are more comon and replace nowadays diesel generators to close the energy gap These things will take the next 5 to 10 years to be reality. But ... I only use my engine for entering / leaving the marina ... and in a storm ... hey, I've got sails to use ;-))
Yes, I did not because that was not the exercise :-) if I was to follow the genset route, then the diesel tank and noisy smelly tractor engine would be back taking the weight and space of the Lithiums :-) the point was just to compare apples to apples, weight to weight...
Hi Frik Have you looked at SolarWave? (www.solarwave-yachts.com/english/ or their new site www.silent-yachts.com/) They seem to have cracked the solar motor issue. To take your comparison another step forward, remove the weight of the sales and mast (and ropes) too and add that to the weight of the batteries you can carry. You can also remove the difference in weight between an electric motor and the weight of the diesel engine (plus all the spares and oils you need to carry for the diesel engine). I think that all the above combined will add a significant amount of extra battery weight you can carry and give you a lot more electrical power. On another note entirely, since you're in touch with Leopard, there's a feature I'd love to see all manufacturers add to their yachts and perhaps you can get Leopard to add it to their range. A fixed window just below the water line on either side would be great! You can see the entire pod of dolphins (or whatever) are swimming near the boat while under way and, particularly in shallow water, it is useful to check for depth and also useful for spotting the better places to snorkel so you don't have to waste time with trial and error from the surface. I really enjoy your videos and like your analytical approach to everything. I'm particularly glad that Leopard will make changes in light of your findings and think that you are doing the community a great service with your channel. Thank you very much indeed! Cheers, Trevor
Thank you, Trevor for the kind words! Yes, looked at the weight, but still even those solrwave gunboats have a diesel genset onboard including the smelly smokey fossil fuel engine (they call them "range extenders" but it is a 15kW genset)....which put all the weight back again. Unless off course if I missed the part where they say they can sail 800nm with the lithiums only. keep in mind, it is not always sunny, it is not always windy...
The main disadvantage of electromotor is the price at moment. Oceanvolt complete system for a Leopard 45 cost 100,000 Euro (2 times 50,000 Euro for actual 2 systems). A normal diesel engine costs just 20,000 Euro (so 2 times it is 40,000 Euro). You can buy a lot of diesel for 60,000 Euro ... But I consider Oceanvolt as really overpriced at moment. In China you get the batteries for 1/3 of their price, any ordinary electromotor costs just 1/10. And the electronic costs in production just a handful dollar. The only thing that costs is the overhead of the company. It is for sure room to cut the price by 2/3 next years.
In the video I tried to chuck away the diesel and used its weight (missed the engine weight though...) to replace the diesel with Lithium. We are currently 38 degrees north and must say, the sun is out only a few hours on a sunny day, and if it is out, its path is way low over the horizon, and then there is the MED rain...our 2.2kW solar is just not enough to charge the Lithium, even if the boom is out of the way and we are at anchor (no sails up to shadow the panels). The kettle, lights, computers, chargers, etc. is eating up more electricity than the panels can bring in! If we sail, then even on a sunny day, the sails shadow the panels....sorry, to break it to you, but one needs sun, a lot of sun. Perhaps all the awesome links and tests I have seen so far, are either motor cats, or sailing only Trade Winds where lots of wind and sun is more overhead. I cannot see how our charging system can support two electric motors too...
sorry, but i'm a bit confused... are we talking about a sail boat? because these systems (as far as i understand) are designed for a sail boat, where you can top up your batteries as you sail...therefore, your range is practically unlimited, instead of your range limited by the amount of diesel you can store, and when that's finished you have no engine, power generation, etc. electric engine/generator and batteries on a sailing yacht is a no brainer if you really think about it, specially with all the auxiliaries like solar and wind to add to it.
The Hybrids are koowl and the best there is at the moment...The test would be to be able to run those motors for few days without cooling time or recharge time. We have no been twice in 6m breaking waves and 40+ kts of wind where we had to motor for 2-3 days without a break. Off course we took the hard way (80% upwind) going to the MED, which took us close to the section in the Doldrums where there is no wind for 600-700nm...we could just turn on the diesels and they run 24hrs for 5 days, no problem. The Rigging Dr stayed in the Northern Hemisphere and in the steady Trade Winds. I am sure you watched Delos where they sailed Namibia, St Helena, Ascension all the way to Brazil not using their engine at all, not even for dropping or lifting anchor! Crossing the Atlantic is very easy using the Trades, but try to sail 80 different latitude degrees without engine....or to rely on electric motors for days without a cooling of break... BTW, one of the reasons why we choose a cat was the redundency of having two motors...if the genset breaks, then you are in trouble if you need engines....
I’ve also thought of going electric and putting a two speed gearbox on the motors with having 3 seperate water cooled battery banks so they can cool while they charge with having alternators on the motors with a smart system that divides the power between the batteries that are under temp as well as the wind & hydro generators + solar
No ev West do a bracket for their electric motors which you can attach water pumps and alternators I reckon the system would pay for its self with in 2 years not having to buy fuels oils besides the gearboxes have a look into their sight they have RUclips videos as well but they are doing it on cars and to what you said about getting out of a bad situation you could always install a generator for back up
Hi You didn’t mention the most important advancement is battery power... The new advancement is... The new electric super cars don’t have batteries, they have super capacitors!! Supercapacitors A) don’t have a limited charge cycle, so after 10 years they behave like new B) they can deliver all their charge in a lightning bolt, batteries cannot deliver that amperage C) not effected by temperature. Trucks use super capacitors in icy conditions D) can recharge very quickly E) really light weight, esp compared to a battery Cons: A) they still cost more than batteries... but that won’t be for long B) for the same capacity as a battery super capacitors need more space
I am following super capacitors, but as you mentioned, they are still getting into the picture. Myself is an Electronic Engineer who went over to the dark side of software engineering :-)
Thank you for watching, Matt. Yes, I did not want to mention that, but the whole charter group took a serious hit because of that, hence the reluctant attitude of the CEO...
The Hybrids are koowl and the best there is at the moment...The test would be to be able to run those motors for few days without cooling time or recharge time. We have no been twice in 6m breaking waves and 40+ kts of wind where we had to motor for 2-3 days without a break. Off course we took the hard way (80% upwind) going to the MED, which took us close to the section in the Doldrums where there is no wind for 600-700nm...we could just turn on the diesels and they run 24hrs for 5 days, no problem. The Rigging Dr stayed in the Northern Hemisphere and in the steady Trade Winds. I am sure you watched Delos where they sailed Namibia, St Helena, Ascension all the way to Brazil not using their engine at all, not even for dropping or lifting anchor! Crossing the Atlantic is very easy using the Trades, but try to sail 80 different latitude degrees without engine....or to rely on electric motors for days without a cooling of break... BTW, one of the reasons why we choose a cat was the redundency of having two motors...if the genset breaks, then you are in trouble if you need engines....
How about a Hybrid drive? Much like cars Electric motor with a small diesel motor running at most efficient speed to charge and lithium batteries only when required?
Yes, I mentioned the DC genset? This is the "range extender" on the Oceanvolt and Torqeedo systems. So, very possible. But you need big enough genset to provide those 15kW motors the power they need should your batteries run out. Look at Rigging Doctor, their monohull weighs far less than our L45 and they need a small genset to go 2 knots sustaining. But this would for sure need to be the way to go. Batteries alone (for at least with the current commercial technology) with Solar, will not work.
Hybrid is only economically viable in a situation that you need a lot of power for small periods and a lot less power for longer periods. For instances, think a tug boat with 5 x 1000hp generators and a 4k kw electric motor. Most of the time it will only run 1 or 2 of the generators to move arround and do it thing, but some times it will need the 5 to tow a big ship. That is your saving in hybrids... if you have to run the only generator most of the time to serve the electric motor, there is no point, just more complexity. (cars with range extender as a different story, 90% of the time a car uses only a small fraction of its power, so it can go by with a very small internal combustion engine to fill up the batteries, sailboat while crusing, use a high percentage of the available power and constantly)
exactly! not many people see it that way....yes, boats can use sails and wind, but when it comes to motor sailing, or just plain motoring (which is unfortunately a big percentage of the time), then the water drag/resistance is the juice sucker :-)
Hey Fritz, I found these two videos featuring Dave Tether of Emotion Hybrids that I know you will enjoy. It's all theory with graphs from a Catamaran Owner that explains the efficiencies of a Hybrid System over the diesel systems. And this was back in 2010 when he gave the presentation. At that time he stated Hybrid Electric systems had gone mainstream. So my question is, what is preventing us from doing it today? I like the Electric Serial Hybrid Option, meaning, an Electric Motor with a Multifuel GenSet that is more efficient than any diesel engine can be.by itself and it allows for multiple inputs, such as Solar, Hydro and Wind as well as da dock hookup if desired to charge th3e batteries. 1. American Sailing Club and Emotion Hybrids - Choosing Your KW motor size - ruclips.net/video/OW8mzN-KPN4/видео.html 2. ASC & EH - Diesel Electric Propulsion VS Hybrid Diesel Electric Systems - ruclips.net/video/DDPcB--VxqQ/видео.html Let me know what you think.
Like you have, I've been researching electric propulsion. The way I calculate is first determine how much propulsion power you actually need for a happy cruising speed. Like the 13 kW @ 5 knots you mention, I then multiply by 6 or 7 for minimum peak power in opposing high current and wind. A more efficient example than your catamaran is the 25-ton Silent-Yachts 64 that appears need 12 kW for 6 knots, 50 kW for 10 knots. ruclips.net/video/oMq-Ksj0Kho/видео.html 24 hours at 5 knots for you is 312 kWh, for Silent-Yachts and 6 knots it's 288kWh. Heavy and inefficient designs are less feasible for electric propulsion without significant regen and solar because of battery size, weight and the time it takes to charge them. You need double of everything. My rule of thumb is if you want a fossil fuel free boat at a constant power output for 24 hours, then depending on how you use it you really need 2-6 six times the cruising propulsion power in solar, 1 times regen, and 6-18 times in battery. eg. 1 kW of propulsion for 24 hours = 24 kWh of energy divided by 4 kWh/kW solar efficiency = 6 kW of solar panels = 18 kWh battery = 18 kWh regen at night. So in 6 hours of sunlight you're producing on average 24 kWh of energy, 6 kW of which goes to motoring when the sun is out, 18 kWh of which you need to store in batteries to motor for the other 18 hours in a day, but if you have wind day or night you can be charging with regen. If you only travel in summer climates then you might get away with half or less of the amount of solar, eg 3 times the propulsion in solar power and 9 times the battery. Maybe 2 times if your solar panels are highly efficient. For your 13 kW cruising propulsion Catamaran that would be a minimum of 26 kW of solar and not feasible. When there's no wind, there's no using regen like Torqeedo's Deep Blue or Oceanvolt's Servoprop which is only 800W at 6 knots. And wind generators aren't much different. But with wind and enough regen things can look different. 2 times ServoProps at 6 knots for 24 hours is 38 kWh. On a small catamaran that would meet all it's battery charging needs. For your larger cat with 2 kWh of solar that's on average 8 kWh a day for a total with regen of 46 kWh, so you'd need to sail 7 days with regen for every one day without wind if using a 312 kWh battery (3 times Tesla P100D battery; about 1650 kg). The more regen, the shorter that gets. For some people they may only need enough energy to motor in and out of territorial waters to dock and don't mind sitting idle when there's no wind. That's about 24 nautical miles into and out of UN convention countries or 8 hours motoring at 3 knots. At 1 kW propulsion and 3 knots that's 8 kWh of battery. I see most smaller DIY electric monohulls with about this. Otherwise just use a diesel genset. If you calculate diesel energy density and efficiency (~45%) compared to current lithium ions and electric motor efficiencies (~90%), you need about 6.7 times the volume of diesel in batteries to match. Liquid ammonia and hydrogen fuel cells may be another option in the future, but like superchargers they don't exist at marinas yet. Even if the energy density of batteries does go up by 6.7 times in the future, 312 kWh becomes 2100 kWh of energy to charge, and at a marina using those *two* 240V@16A shore power leads it will take 11.5 days to charge. In my mind the key to feasible cruising electric sail boats is having enough solar, wind and regen, and only having enough battery to buffer these energy sources. Battery aging is another thing to consider. FWIW, if you look at the Australian Battery Test Centre reports, the life cycle of the original Tesla Power Wall isn't that good.
Wow, yes, I can see and follow your calculations and I agree. I will test what I have and then see what I need more and see if that is doable. Petro has all sorts of electrical cooking stuff in mind too. So, not all battery power will be going for propulsion...
You may want to watch Nigel Calder describe the Integrel 8 kW generator system for diesel engines. ruclips.net/video/wfX96IWA6m8/видео.html It's just a pity this system doesn't appear to be electric propulsion or hydrogeneration capable, but maybe it is. If it is, I'd think a system like that that would probably suit your boat. Two 8 kW electric motor/generators for silent cruising and hydrogeneration under sail, together with two propulsion diesels for higher power propulsion and battery charging.
Thought you might be interested in this video about the original Solarwave 45, 10.5 tonne boat with 8.5 kW of Solar that produces on average 50 kWh of energy and needs 2.2 kW and 400 RPM to travel at 3 knots. ruclips.net/video/PIGIzOrF1CM/видео.html www.solarboot-projekte.de/solarboote/solarboot-uebersicht/
Craig, I checked out the Integral generators, but they are super expensive. Besides a few small points, do I already have at 1,500rpm on both engines, 400A going into the Lithium. The Sterling regulates the temperature as well as where the charge should go first, for example, AGM starter batteries and then the Lithium. For AGM, the Sterling reduce to little Amps for AGM, and 400A for the Lithium.
Buying salvage batteries from Tesla Cars would change the cost significantly. There is no need for a transmission, no oil changes, no filters, and I’m guessing propellers can be more efficient since torque is constant. Having a generator/charger on board is not an additional item, since most boats that size will have one. I hate Sailors that rely on motoring beyond docking.
Yes, baie nice! Maar ek kan 100% op hierdie oomblik bevestig dat ek super happy is om my diesels met hulle krag en afstand te hê! Ons laaste twee weke was horrendous. Of geen wind of 34kts true wind! Daai diesels het vir dae (24hour dae) aaneen gehardloop. Ons het baie mistige of onweer dae gehad waar solar omtrent niks gecharge het... Electrical motors sou ons verseker in die steek gelaat het.
very impressive indeed! but just to throw a bone in the works....Atlantic crossings from east to west are very easy with the Trade Winds....if you may recall, Delos did the crossing without even using the engine...Namibia, St. Helena, Ascension, and Brazil ... anchoring and leaving anchorage all without their engine (or autopilot for that matter)...
5 лет назад
There is not much energy per square foot available from sunlight, even in the tropics. If you just want to motor a sailing yacht into and out of a dock in your weekend yacht, that's OK. It is not powerful enough for anything serious. If you just want to use it very briefly and at very long intervals, diesel won't have much CO2 production anyway. I've done the calculations.
My thoughts exactly. We just finished a 3,900nm passage and we had to motor in total for about 5 days. Three days continously 24 hours a day... No electric motor would have done that.
There are a lot of misconceptions in this video about using electric motors. I won't go into them all, but saying that you can go 800 miles on diesel and only 10 on electric is the first misconception. The proper statement would be, you can go 10 miles on Electric (which is also incorrect, you can get more like 30 miles on a reasonable battery bank) and zero miles on diesel... without using fuel for either one. Then, on the electric hybrid, after you go your miles without using diesel, you can fire up a generator and continue on diesel, where with the diesel you have already been burning fuel. Now, the next thing people tell you is that the hybrid is less efficient then a straight diesel when using fuel. What they forget to calculate is that you also regenerate more electric power as you sail. In the end, this more than makes up for the difference in efficiency, and you can simply travel further on the same amount of fuel with a hybrid diesel system than you can on a standard diesel. How much further? That depends on the amount of solar and if you are using the new Oceanvolt servoprops for regeneration. Then there is the fact that while you motor on a generator, it can also recharge your batteries at the same time, buying you even more time without running on smelly, noisy diesel that you often have to jerry can onto your boat from a dingy (in may locations). A hybrid system has advantages in almost every area... except one. Cost. There is no doubt that initial cost is currently WAY more expensive, but what is your comfort worth? I calculated out the savings over 10 years cruising, and the two systems will nearly be a wash in the end, that's how much fuel you can save, and that's a LOT of diesel I don't have to find, carry, clean, and smell while in exotic places.
Thank you, Phillip! All valid points, but first point I wanted to make is that per same kilograms of 700 liter diesel, the same 700kg weight in batteries. And I stated that right in the beginning. Further, I need 2 x 45 hp to drive that 20 ton cat, so, one should need the equivalent in kW. Hence why I said apples with apples, but it is difficult so, let me just use kg and kW as a starting point to proof that one should not think that replacing the weight of your batteries and the weight of the engine with drive train batteries. Lastly I also stated that yes, one can weight and the sun or wind or hydro will charge, but one for safety reasons, have to consider that those are 2 x 13kW motors and no current technology exists to fit that charging capacity on the cruising cat without sacrificing structural integrity and serious performance hits. You only generate power when you sail with wind only...which is far less than many people think. Further, if you look at the all the links in my description and the links from the comments, you will notice a trend in the type of boats...it is high performance carbon fiber cats which weighs more than half of the 20 ton cruising cat. Those performance cats goes very often above 20 knots and then the hydro regen is excellent! Uhm...running on generator is smelly fossil diesel...the word hybrid does not mean you do not use diesel and you do not have smelly noisy smokey diesels...hybrids are using diesel engines hence why hybrid is even worse, because you have to keep the weight of the engine and the diesel on the boat. Don't get me wrong, I am going to start with hybrids, I just need to look for a 45hp diesel with a sail drive hybrid. I am sure I will be in the first group of cruising sailors to go fully electrical over oceans. Read that carefully again and focus on the word cruising, not racing, not high performance, but a 20 ton fat and heavy cruising catamaran with lots of luxuries such as microwave ovens, chargers, TVs, computers, lights, music systems, freezers, hot water, air conditioners, etc. Tough call, mate! Our electricity system just for these luxuries, is already $60k! But that will come up in a video soon, so, keep on watching!
The Oceanvolt servoprop changes those number significantly. Each (of two on a cat) recharges at 1 kwh at 6.5 knots, a speed easily achieved by your Leopard. That is two kilowatts per hour (more if you can sail faster than 6.5, but let's use that number). If you figure you can sail 50% of the time (a generally accepted number, on a trade wind passage you can probably do better) you can charge 24 kilowatts in 12 hours of a single day. With a solar bank of 3 kilowatts (also achievable in the space on many a catamarans due to the large salon roof), and figuring about 5 hours a day, that's an additional 15 kwh recharge. That is 39 kwh (total) recharge, which means you can leave port and motor for about 30 miles, recharge during the voyage (assuming about a 30 kwh battery bank) and motor again for another 30 miles. That's sixty miles, per day, not burning diesel. Figure that the average cat is going to travel around 150 miles in a day. Assuming you sail at least 50% of that, you have to motor 75 miles. 60 of those would be without diesel use, meaning you have to motor, with a generator on, for 15 miles. Now think about all the shorter passages you do, in many of these cases you won't even have to turn on a diesel generator at all. Now, lets talk about the generator. A 20 kwh generator will drive a single 15 kw servoprop motor running at half speed (all you need to move at a decent speed and the same thing you typically do with a diesel engine) and, at the same time, the generator will send some power to your battery bank. Even if that is only 5 kwh, that's still significant recharge of the batteries, buying you even more time without running diesel fuel. If you figure about 20% less efficiency in fuel due to conversions, it still doesn't make up for the fact that you only need to use the generator to go 15 miles a day where a diesel boat uses a diesel engine for 75 miles a day (about an 80% savings). Now, the benefits. With a 30 kwh battery bank, you can run your air conditioning all night, without burning diesel fuel. You can make water, without using diesel fuel, take more showers, etc. Over a ten year period, assuming you are circumnavigating (not sitting in a marina) in the trip I planned out I would save about 25,000 hours of listening, smelling, and hearing diesel. I will get to buy about 7,500 gallons less diesel, and that means I won't have to carry a lot of that fuel in Jerry cans, to and from shore, in taxis, etc. in many remote places in the world. Sure, the hybrid system is more expensive, initially, but you can make that money back over time and while you do, life will certainly be more comfortable. You mentioned weight. Using two diesel generators (a 20 kwh and a 10 kwh) as backups in case of the rare need to motor at full power continuously for a long period. A 30 kwh battery bank, and 3 kwh of solar panels, the weight difference in the the system I measured is about 200 lbs. I can live with that for all the benefits of the electric system. Finally, it is true you can motor about a half a knot faster at full speed, in the right conditions, with the diesel engine over the hybrid. Again, a trade off I'd be willing to make for all the other benefits.
I wanted to pass this along to you. I found Helen Bells comment over on Sailing Doodles video I posted below for you all. She apparently so far is the ONLY person and Sailing Vessel that I have found that has for the past 3 years been using Solar exclusively, she only uses electric engines and NO Diesel or fossil fuel, has done this for 3 years. Via Hellen Bell: ruclips.net/channel/UCp0kh2ETw32RIqO0yiF95Lg We've been running our 45' cat for three years on 1800w of solar with lifepo4 batteries and no generator. We run air con, microwVe, toaster, three freezers, two fridges etc etc etc off our batteries. Lithium and solar is the future of energy. Better batteries are more efficient at charging and discharging and lots of solar each with their own mppt controllers are the two most important features., along with oversized wiring to reduce losses. Our batteries are lifepo4 lithium iron phosphate and we have. 800ah at 24v or 1600 ah st 12v lifepo4 lithium iron phosphate and we have. 800ah at 24v or 1600 ah st 12v If you need more info on there Solar Journey and REAL LIFE working solution over the past 3 years, then contact them over on their Symmetry III and a little Chaos Too Facebook Page at: facebook.com/Symmetry-III-and-a-little-Chaos-Too-566872213459133/
You need to watch the Gunboat 60 "MOONWAVE" for a very up-to-date video on electric motors and an all-electric boat !! And the electric docking system. F.A.B.U.L.O.U.S. !! The actual YouTbe video is moonwave powerpack for info on how the system works.
Thank you, Richard and thank you for watching! That link is in the description :-) but couldn't find anywhere what the actual range is. But, yes, super performance cat, all fibre, all honeycomb resin hulls, weighing half what my L45 will weigh
If you look on RUclips " hidden tecnology" and " hydrogen" if this resent tec with molekyl add comes thru the idea with electric motors on sailboats and hydrogen powergenerator going to push forward clean tec with less battery stack. On ocean volt home site there is several electric builds...good luck .
Note : the weight of a genoratot is large You might look at Aquariousgenorator.com theu are an Isralie manufacturer and their unit is fractional compared to other genorators I would check them our only aaa few moving ( linear) parts very simple. Light enough for 1 dedicated to each Drive and charge the lithium batteries. Note I sorted my lithium drive system thru Copart purchasing a crashed Tesla
Hi Capt Frik, did you get a J1939 scan tool for your Yanmars? I work on-board diagnostics, and am on the SAE J1979 Committee, equivalent of ISO 15765-4. I did diagnostics work on the General Motors Two-Mode Hybrids ten years ago, and also have a diagnostics patent on the Chevrolet Volt. Given current range issues, the Volt with a range extender in series is probably the best bet. But it would be a smaller diesel! I also worked at Cummins and am familiar with the J1939 protocol, which is the diesel equivalent of J1979. I found this for Yanmar engines, do you have a scanner like this? Is there a J1939 diagnostic connector on the engine? www.yanmar.com/us/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Yanmar-CANplus-600-Operation-and-Troubleshooting.pdf J1939 connector: www.ocp.com/product/11760-03-226/?Google%20Shopping&Product%20feed%20for%20shopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgdP2s5Wl5AIV8__jBx11lQolEAQYASABEgJpH_D_BwE
Also just realized the standard Yanmar display with the buttons at the bottom can display a lot of information, starting page 28 www.yanmarmarine.com/theme/yanmarportal/uploadedFiles/Marine/productDownloads/Pleasure-operation-manual/022018_update_JH-CR_OM/0AJHC-EN0014_201711.pdf
Sailing Sisu I have found that nearly every controller type has a system setting and/or diagnostics function but they are on hidden screens. I always read the manuals.
I think your math might be off some where. I have seen electric boats of similar size that can run for 8+ hour on much less battery than you are talking about.
Would be great if you can share us the link! But the same math is shown on the Torqeedo site too and by that Quad44. The motors just need too much power and there is not batteries to store that power. Also keep in mind, I am not talking about a high performance, all carbon fiber with honeycomb epoxy hulls... cruising cats weighs a lot, 19,000 metric tons. That is a lot of dead weight to plow through the water. and water speed vs resistance vs power required is quadratic. if you double speed, then you need to quadruple your power. Batteries are just not there yet.
Another South African guy converted his Leopard to use Oceanvolt. He does an extremely good tour of it here: ruclips.net/video/o6kOvjS1ytE/видео.html . Best guided boat tour I have seen on youtube. Really interesting.
@@SailingSisu oh doh! of course! a voyage, not a leopard. I must have been half asleep when I wrote that. But in any case: excellent conversion and excellent walk through. (don't forget to watch part 2)
The Hybrids are koowl and the best there is at the moment...The test would be to be able to run those motors for few days without cooling time or recharge time. We have no been twice in 6m breaking waves and 40+ kts of wind where we had to motor for 2-3 days without a break. Off course we took the hard way (80% upwind) going to the MED, which took us close to the section in the Doldrums where there is no wind for 600-700nm...we could just turn on the diesels and they run 24hrs for 5 days, no problem. The Rigging Dr stayed in the Northern Hemisphere and in the steady Trade Winds. I am sure you watched Delos where they sailed Namibia, St Helena, Ascension all the way to Brazil not using their engine at all, not even for dropping or lifting anchor! Crossing the Atlantic is very easy using the Trades, but try to sail 80 different latitude degrees without engine....or to rely on electric motors for days without a cooling of break... BTW, one of the reasons why we choose a cat was the redundency of having two motors...if the genset breaks, then you are in trouble if you need engines....
Try not to mix kW (power) and kWh (energy) all the time please. Power is the number of HP of your car engine Energy is the number of litres of your fuel tank, basically
From 1890 to 1930 we used sailing boats without diesel or electric motors to carry world trade. Haven't we come a long way to try & do the same? the pollution from large container ships is catastrophic. If we dont do something then nature will do it for us.
Lol, I agreed. And sailors died of scurvy and was afraid of the dreaded dull drums. The thing is that that I worked the last 16 years in countries where one hour a week or in some countries one hour in six months electricity was a luxury. We are captives of our own doing :-) imagine what will happen if all electricity was killed. Yes, no more pumping gasses into the air, but billions of people will die. Nature will take over cities and humans will be on the extinction list for sure. But do we want that or kill earth? You know the answer.
Hi Sisu, found your channel. like the spsreadcheet comparisons ;-) i see in te comments you already found the rigging docter channel. Did you already check theyr reviews on the atlantic crossing? I found it a little bit sad you got convinced by the director of Leopard. It's not becaus one production brand is dicuriging you to go electrict that it should be set in stone. you should follow your gut ;-), it could be more cortly to convert later on. specialy when other brands are delivering hybrid electric like Mavrick. there is more rooting fore a full electric conversion then you took into consideration. specialy when you are going full live aboard. for ex: besides when you are otering on your engine, there is no benifit on having a fuel tank. the batery pack you could use for other domestic means. while you are sailing, your diesel tank will not get full again while your battery bank will throu regen or other means. just saing, Frik could be the elon of sailing catamarans ;-)
The Hybrids are koowl and the best there is at the moment...The test would be to be able to run those motors for few days without cooling time or recharge time. We have no been twice in 6m breaking waves and 40+ kts of wind where we had to motor for 2-3 days without a break. Off course we took the hard way (80% upwind) going to the MED, which took us close to the section in the Doldrums where there is no wind for 600-700nm...we could just turn on the diesels and they run 24hrs for 5 days, no problem. The Rigging Dr stayed in the Northern Hemisphere and in the steady Trade Winds. I am sure you watched Delos where they sailed Namibia, St Helena, Ascension all the way to Brazil not using their engine at all, not even for dropping or lifting anchor! Crossing the Atlantic is very easy using the Trades, but try to sail 80 different latitude degrees without engine....or to rely on electric motors for days without a cooling of break... BTW, one of the reasons why we choose a cat was the redundency of having two motors...if the genset breaks, then you are in trouble if you need engines....
Please watch our video on one year sailing :-) We have 2.2kW and we battle to get 13kW of batteries charged...I doubt your statement sincerely :-) and yes, I have watched the all the videos on the Silent Wind Yachts...and I would so desperately want to have a discussion with at least ONE owner who is doing blue water cruising... Currently, I want to make a statement, there is none. All the videos I see so far, is from Silent Yachts themselves...very nice and beautiful, but...please let me talk to a blue water cruiser.
Found some additional Information that may help you. Came across an old 2009 video from the American Sailing School (ruclips.net/p/PL19A47983ECB55420) about how they purchased a 38' Cat to retrofit to an electric propulsion system. Its something called Emotion Hybrid Systems (ruclips.net/p/PL19A47983ECB55420 & emotionhybrids.com/)
I have written as short a guide as I could think for your situation. 1- To begin, check the links below to give you a broader idea of what is going on in terms of boat global sales. ruclips.net/video/EiiAayqRM8E/видео.html trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=Catamaran%20sales trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=Catamaran%20sales,Boat%20sales trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=2010-07-08%202018-08-08&q=Catamaran%20sales So if Robertson & Caine’s is too busy to help you as a customer and meet your needs, then there is a whole lot of nice boat builders with a slack in demand able to meet your needs. After all you are paying them, they are not paying you to buy the boat. 2- There are other manufacturers that provide an option of electric engine(s) vs diesel engines, and they install Oceanvolt’s electric engines at the factory without, also, doing steep price increases. Labor costs for the Oceanvolt’s install should be a maximum of 40-hours (Oceanvolt’s estimate). In addition, they should be able to subtract the diesel engine cost and ancillary equipment from the Oceanvolt option. Do a Google search, and if you can’t find them shoot me a message. I would start by reaching out to Oceanvolt in Finland for other boat manufacturing options, and I would discuss your situation with them. 3- There are at least two ways of sizing up an electric engine for a boat that I can think of right now. You can do this either from a conversion of horsepower to kilowatts, or you can do this by dividing the maximum displacement mass of your boat by horsepower. Do not use the measly engine size offered for sale with a boat. Use the engine offered under options. There is a good reason manufacturers offer this option. For the weight displacement route convert the displacement mass to kilograms. Convert the kilograms to metric tons. Divide this number by 2.5. Repeat and divide by 4. Divide both results by two since you are installing two engines in a cat. These two results are the minimum and maximum sizes for an electric engine for your boat. The minimum should work for you unless your hull is made from steel. Yeah I know.... So a maximum displacement of 40,000 pounds will require, for example, a minimum electric engine of 22.7-kW and a maximum of 36.3-kW. For the horsepower to kilowatt route you need to know that one horsepower equals 746 watts or 0.746 kilowatts. So a 37-horsepower diesel engine is comparable to a (37HP)(0.746 kW / 1HP) = 27.6-kW electric engine. Both approaches point to an electric engine between 25-kW and 30-kW. 4- For the battery don’t buy what they offer. For the same money or less get the much larger batteries from a scrapped Chevy Bolt, Nissan Leaf, or Tesla car. These usually survive a salvage car in pretty good condition. You will be amazed what $20,000 will actually buy in terms of a real battery bank (35-kWh to 90-kWh). If you can’t find these batteries by yourself get in touch with Jack Rickard from EVTV. He will set you straight. All of these car batteries are already heavily weathered (they are enclosed inside containers which are inside enclosures, etc). Caveat emptor - buyer beware: the chemistry of these different car batteries may not be the same kind offered in the Oceanvolt package. So I recommend you do some research; however, for sailing I would speculate that they should be ok. Get a gas or diesel generator when motoring for long periods of time. This will extend your cruising range until the wind picks up again, and it will save you from continuously draining empty your battery bank. 5- Install the largest panels you can from Sunpower or Panasonic. With shading they work the best in terms of energy output; they, also, both have the least amount of degradation, and their power output (pmax or maxp) performs better than other brands in hot weather. Install these panels either with optimizers or mini inverters. This will provide energy while anchored somewhere. Both of these technologies (optimizers or mini inverters) will reduce the loss from shading. I know no one else in boats does it, but this is what you need. Make sure the battery chargers, optimizers, or I nverters have MPPT. This will boost the harvested solar energy by 30% with any solar panel brand. Look in the Internet for examples of how to install a strong structural frame to support the panels over the dinghy, on the sides of a boat, or under the boom. If installed correctly strong wind gusts should not affect anything, and in addition, these structures can be placed to provide you with protection from the rain and to provide shade below them from the sun. Some installations are made to quickly (relatively speaking) disassemble the panels during a very strong and windy weather storm. Check out the different systems available for connecting solar panels to a rigid mounting system. Some of these will allow this. 6- Before buying the solar panels calculate your energy needs per day. Think how you can reduce your daily energy consumption by either installing more efficient fridges, installing lots of LED lighting, etc. This calculation and process will prevent you from buying more solar panels than you actually need, and it will save you money at the time of sizing the house battery bank, the battery chargers, the inverters, and the cables by permitting the installation of a smaller solar system. In addition, it will save space. 7- Make sure the boat manufacturer prepares the boat with cables and cabinets for the installation of the batteries, or at least pre-drills and separates an area to install the batteries with racks to prevent them from moving while at sea, and perhaps they might, also, be willing to design and install the structure to support your solar panels. You will need them to prepare an area where all the cables can be gathered together for the battery chargers, inverters, meters, quick electrical disconnects, switch boxes, and other related equipment. If possible make sure the electrical equipment is factory cabled and able to accept other future energy sources such as wind turbines or hydro generators. You never know when you might need them, or decide to add them. All of the electrical cables should be sized properly to handle both the different energy sources of this install, possible future energy source installations, and the electrical demand side of things. The preparation of cabling, cabinets, and structures will save you a whole lot of headaches. Oceanvolt should be able to help you to plan this, and a local, friendly, knowledgeable distributor should help you to plan the rest. So when you have your big meet with a boat builder you have a planned, organized presentation for your electrical and energy requirements. On the financial side of things, you will save money four ways with the above systems: a - decrease your engine fuel consumption expense. b - decrease your engine maintenance expense. c - decrease your expense for slips since you will be more autonomous. d - decrease your electric house fuel consumption expense. On the personal side your cruising trips should be quieter and with less fumes. On the global side you are helping everyone and everything. I hope this helps in your boat buying, making decision. Happy and safe journey.
wow, thank you, Eric! very good advise and I will take it into consideration for sure! I am looking at the Tesla Walls until someone told me they will not survive marine environment...? Also, I have currently 2.2kW of solar (sunpower), two Silent Wind generators, and 1.2kW of Lithium. This already added a sh!t load of weight to my catamaran as well, I run out of space to place them safely without compromising on the hull design or float dynamics needed for a cat to be safe. It is after all, only 45ft not like the 62ft Gunboat from the links I have received so many times. My current weight is 19 metric tons (sorry, I have no intentions to start learning non-metric :-) ) so, for now, I want to check out these things myself in real life. see how it performs and what I run out of first. If all this weight is just for my personal [comfortable] needs...
Sailing Sisu you are most welcomed. Many of the viewers mentioned Torqueedo, and I believe they have a similar system to Oceanvolt. If you decide to change I think Privilège Marine, Aventura, and a few others are offering cats from the factory with electric motors, but I believe they all offer an electric generator which I believe you hate, but on an emergency it could save a life; so you have to weigh one against the other. Your solar panels, wind turbines, and lithium batteries should serve you well in the meantime. Best of luck.
Frik, Great work so far! I plan to also buy a Leopard 45 (someday) and install many of the same systems you have recommended. So regarding the electronics/battery systems, have you considered a combo 12V/24V system? I've read some good things about the efficiencies of using 24V for some items (winches, AirCon, water-maker, motors, etc). One site I've been reviewing is from Polar Power: polarpower.com/applications/marine/ PS: Eventually I would be very interested in your final Victron equipment list, and schematic, showing any/all components such as BMS, BMV, Cyrix-Li-Charge/Load relays, Battery Protect modules, ACvsDC genset (and why), etc.
Thank you, Todd! Yes, but Robertson & Caine is using 12V for all their equipment so, it did not make much sense at the time. Yes, for sure, higher voltage, thinner much thinner cables. That is for sure a better way to transfer DC. In retrospect, Marcel and I ripped almost all the R&C equipment out but I forgot about that it could be a transition point towards 24 or 48V :-) Petro still needs to make one more episode on Vodka machines and then I will do a video on our final costs. We still do not have all the costs, but it will give you guys a good overview of what the costs are. Don't forget to mention Sisu when you talk to theCape Town office, they may throw in a nice discount :-)
I am still not convinced. In our recent video, we did motor 2 days out of a 6-day passage. We could alternate between the two diesels every 3 hours and let the other one rest. While if you had a hybrid, you will have one battery bank, one genset. If you have two 13kW motors, it means you would have depleted the propulsion bank within 4 hours and from then on it would have been the genset. You need at least 13kw genset for continuous propulsion, but you cannot run a genset at max capacity for that long, so, you need to upgrade your genset....which means more weight more fuel more noise more polution...well, kind of defeats the purpose in general of trying to reduce weight, footprint, diesel consumption, and noise ;-)
The solar Li Ion.Battery diesel generator combination looks to be the best solution if you can bear the eye watering costs . There is no way in the long run you can outperform the Diesel engine solutions in terms of fuel costs . However the ability to only run a diesel generator a few hours a week versus noisy running Diesel engines to make electric power is very interesting especially for charter boats . There is one example of a large cat used for charter in USA that has the solar Li Ion.Battery diesel generator combination for the house system and runs three large A/C . A Lithium Powered Cat, Our latest upgrade Ep.20 (The Space Between ). ruclips.net/video/9GoSDOM-jVI/видео.html. It reduces they estimate the generator running time dramatically based on the previous version of smaller li ION battery solution they had . A cat can do something that is harder for mono hulls to do and that is have a Diesel engine in one hull and a electric power solutions in the other hull and have a generator to run electric engine when batteries have run out so as to be hybrid electric power . A example would be 38 kilowatt Diesel engine for one hull with a suitable 50 Kilowatt diesel generator to drive the electric power source probably 15 KW motor to switch on when battery power was down . Then for battery power cut that down in range to something like 5 miles range The electric power engines could easily be twin folding on twin 7.5 KW motors props to give best control in harbours . The Diesel engine could also have two folding props also driven of Hydraulics . There will be losses from two props versus one bigger prop and losses in the hydraulic power and electric resistance with longer cables .However to reduce the losses lower and to keep costs probably better best to have single props for each type of power source and opt to reduce the speed under electric power and diesel electric power down to something like less than three knots and bring Diesel generator down to smaller less than 20KW size . The problems of electric power in this time are there is no recharge electric Grid power points to connect into Like a Tesla car can . Generating power from Diesel generators is very costly often 5 to 10 times the cost per kilowatt than grid power . Example is Grid power in the USA costs about $0.20 cents per Kilowatt where small diesel generators tend to come in at $1 to $2 per KW . Therefore electric generation by solar panels is very interesting if the costs can be done at less than $1 a single WATT . In large solar Farms they get these numbers but on small boats that nearly impossible to get . The real maths of the problem is that Diesel fuel is about 12.66KW or 12,666 watts per kilo of fuel Li Ion in this time is approx 130 watts or less than 2 % of power density . However the Diesel engines are wasteful in energy starting at approximately 65% losses in the engine with losses in the gearbox and shafts and prop losses they often return less than 10% the power that is eventualy harnessed at the props . Example a 35 KW motor GROSS power might finally give NET power 3 kilowatts of power to the boat after all losses . A electric drive will often have more low losses than a Diesel fuel engine and return approx 40% NET power from Gross input power . Example 8 Kilowatt electric power solution might return 3 kilowatt NET power to the boat system after all losses . That will be based on losses in battery from heat losses in speed controllers from heat and ramping and mechanical loses The normal prop losses are often about 30 % much the same as Diesel engine prop losses . The big trick with electric power is to look the slow speeds 2 to 3 knots where power demands are low about 1/4 the power demands of 5 knots . If 5 knots needs 20 kilowatt of electric power to go that speed then at 2 knots then it might be more like 5 Kw to go at 2 knots speed . Yes that 2 knots speed is slow but crossing oceans in calm regions which often exist in mid oceans it can cut down the amount of Diesel fuel needed to get across the ocean if there is slow power demand electric solutions to push the boat in calms . Cutting down fuel demands lightens the boats and reduces fuel fire risks . It might be possible to put enough solar panels on the larger cats that they can in daylight hours return average speeds of 2 knots but its gonna be lot of panels and a lot of costs. Solar power only Speeds of 5 knots don't look doable on boat smaller than 100 feet Solar power slow speed with electric engine solutions for ocean crossing boats can help if speed is not a issue such as Charter boats who require to get to new charter boat locations on schedules at different times in the year .
Very interesting comment and I am experiencing here at 38 degrees north and winter times, that we just do not have enough solar panels to even keep up with our normal use. Well, we do use the 1.5kW kettle (3% of battery power for 2 cups of water) and we have a lot of cameras, laptops, and phones, which all need charging. Then there is the electrical system itself, which uses power to monitor, protect, and charge the batteries....the only other place to increase solar panels, is at the back over Tippex... But to charge enough for 13kW motors?
Thank you for watching! Yes they do and I saw it (actually forgot about them) however, I did not know they launched their performance cat! Thank you for pointing it out. Looks like a fab cat!
I would LOVE to see electric motors replace the old diesels, so much cleaner and quieter...just need to improve the batteries to the point that the range is acceptable, especially for long voyages/passages like a 3 week Atlantic or Pacific crossing, or the pole to pole traveling you all are aiming to do. Maybe you two can be the first to implement such a solution and be the leaders in showing that it CAN be done. Elon is forging ahead but lately with all the cuts he is making, and buy stock, I think they are hitting a financial tough area and are trying to stay "afloat"... I know a company in Thailand, Heliotrope Yachts (yacht-heliotrope.com/), is seriously looking at this possibility, they are the leaders in going completely SOLAR , best place to get your yacht fitted for running off Solar and no GenSet. I found this video made by Sailing Doodles that interviews the owner of the company, its a very good discussion and he talks about Elon Musk and Tesla as well. SOLAR ASSISTED YACHTS - An Interview With Heliotrope Yachts ruclips.net/video/Obi1sBx0Ca0/видео.html
Thank you, Michael, yes, I have that video listed, actually both sites. I am a serious Elon fan :-) but let me first experience myself what is what. I do not even know how to sail, so, I will give myself a chance to get some experience while checking out what can be done with electric motors and what not :-)
A Tesla Power Wall is very dangerous for on a boat. They're not designed for marine applications and use Li Ion cells that when the BMS fails (and it will some day) will do a catastrophic thermal runaway at temperatures you can't handle. Almost all manufacturers of marine electrical products that have Li batteries for sale use for a very good reason LiFePo4 prismatic cells. Li Ion cells are awesome but not on a boat. The weakest link in y system is always the BMS. When that goes you loose everything, maybe even your life. If you use LiFePo4 cells and something happens you only loose that one cell and your boat is still afloat.
Great catch! I heard Elon one day talking about Lithium Magnesium Phosphate and I thought Tesla would use that for all their batteries...mmm. And you are very correct Li-Ion does not take the same amount of charge neither can it discharge in high volumes. Not good.
![Kodak Black - Catch Fire [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/A4ch-olIuZo/mqdefault.jpg)
Herman Karsten pointed out an error on my side for the Tesla Power Wall. I used the continuous power output and not the capacity therefore the 4 x Power Wall setup will go double the range 20nm at half the cost of the Victron! Well spotted! Elon wins again :-)
For now, I will use the diesels while keeping an eye on improvements in this area of energy storage and energy generation. But most importantly, I never owned a boat, I never had to worry about boat things and weather things, and things like this. So, for now I think it would be great to focus on what I do not know (experience), rely on trusted diesels, and then in a year’s time, rethink all of this when I have experience and can form my own opinion 😊
PS: I am adding the links as reported below, to the description
Rigging Doctor has an electric motor. Their range is minimal on batteries alone. They now run a Honda 2000 generator in order to get them about 2 knots of sustained power. I think Diesel is a better option on long passages. If you are a bay sailor electric might be the way to go, otherwise you will be stuck without the means to burn fuel. Even with solar panels, etc. Also you might consider Carbon Foam batteries made in SA....about 80-90 of the capabilities of lithium for 30-40% of the price.
Thank you, Allyn! Will look into that batteries. Yes, I am aware of Rigging Doctor and there issues with range and speed. There are those G-Force 2000 super performance cats out there with all carbon fiber bodies, carbon fiber masts, honeycomb resin hulls, etc. They weigh half the weight of cruising cats, I guess less than 9 tons. I mean they are able to generate 2 x 6kW of charge with the hydrogen capability of the electric motor, but then, they are sailing at 26 knots! Awesome cats!
Thank you, Allyn! Will look into that batteries. Yes, I am aware of Rigging Doctor and there issues with range and speed. There are those G-Force 2000 super performance cats out there with all carbon fiber bodies, carbon fiber masts, honeycomb resin hulls, etc. They weigh half the weight of cruising cats, I guess less than 9 tons. I mean they are able to generate 2 x 6kW of charge with the hydrogen capability of the electric motor, but then, they are sailing at 26 knots! Awesome cats!
The Tesla Powerwall has 13.7 kw of useable power which means that the batteries are bigger. 2 Powerwalls would give you 27 kw of useable storage. Lead acid batteries can only use 50% and survive so that is the equivalent of 54 kw of lead batteries. The biggest thing to know is that they contain a 5 kw charger and a 5 kw inverter. They also have a BMS and heat exchanger so you can discharge quickly and charge quickly unlike lead batteries. I have calculated that my catamaran at 56 ft in length should cruise at 5 knots for about 5 kw of power.
I am a big fan of the Rigging Doctor but he uses lead batteries which means he has very limited range. He can also only pull small amounts of power without damage to his batteries. With the 2 Tesla Powerwalls, you could cruise at 5 knots for 5 hours. With the right setup, you could use solar and/or a generator to get range. My boat will have no rudder as the steering will be done by using a computer to change the speed of the propellers on each side of the boat like a quad copter. I will be able to steer with a joystick, autopilot or my iPhone.
Thanks for making this video. From what I understand from others who have converted from fossil fuel engines to electric, the big differences are no smell, little if any noise and if natural power sources (solar\wind\hydro) plus storage (batteries) are used, the savings after initial cost to buy and install are exponential. I recall reading about one couple who were cruisers sailing all over the world who said they only had to purchase 50 gallons of fuel (for their generator) over a years time after converting to electric motors.
That is so true! Thank you Michael! And thank you for watching!
I appreciate you walking us through your thinking and your analysis, Frik.
Thank you, Jay! We appreciate your support and kind words!
Frik,
As mentioned here a few weeks ago I was going to charter the new VOYAGE 480 electric cat (ELECTRIFIED) from Voyage Charters in BVI.
Well I did, and as a result have decided to buy a new 480 Voyage with the oceanvolt system. I have spent the last 2 days with the folks from Voyage talking through details and options.
I will do a detailed report and video on Electrified once back at home, but as a soon to be full time cruiser I am happy with what this boat was about. It works, just fine, in fact it was great to sail her for a week with 10 pax on board and deliberately stressing the system to the extreme with 4AC's all day on, watermaker running a lot as we all took long regular showers, electric water heaters, electric winches, electric furling Genoa, etc.
The system kept up just fine,
I will be ordering my boat with a few minor changes but the week long test aboard sold me. Finally a new dawn in sailing....
Great to hear! We just completed a 3,900nm passage and crossed the doldrums. I am 100% sure I would not have been able to cross it with electric motors. I do not have the same battery capacity, but I sure did use 700L of diesel throughout the passage... But keep me posted, I would love to go full electric with no diesel on board!
Silent Yachts 55', 65' and 80' catamarans. Options are 100 % solar, solar/hybrid, solar with conventional sails (55') or with solar with a kite sail. This is the future. Great video thanks! I'm following.
great to know!
You left out the price tag... Well out of reach of 99% of would-be cruisers.
Thanks for breaking that down. Based on your numbers, it's crazy how much difference there is!
Ah, the first comment on par with what I actually wanted to convey 😅 thank you!
@@SailingSisu Check out ruclips.net/video/o6kOvjS1ytE/видео.html. What do you think when you add a generator into a (mostly) electric boat?
By far the best analysis of the problem of using electric motors on boats. On the other hand, the new and very large cruise ship are all using electric propulsion but using generators to power then propulsion systems. I agree with the other comments, by far the best analysis of the current problem of electric motors / batteries. The problem could have been described more easily by just looking at the energy density. Facinating
lol, thank you, Nicolas for watching and the kind words! Yes, density is the key, but I thought let us try to make it practical and graphical in the terms boaters are used to :-) I know for the technical or chemical inclined, it was boring :-D I agree, until they find a way to increase batteries' capacity to store (and still provide large amounts of) energy, I would say hybrid is the way to go. DC genset and lots of Lithium.
lol, thank you, Nicolas for watching and the kind words! Yes, density is the key, but I thought let us try to make it practical and graphical in the terms boaters are used to :-) I know for the technical or chemical inclined, it was boring :-D I agree, until they find a way to increase batteries' capacity to store (and still provide large amounts of) energy, I would say hybrid is the way to go. DC genset and lots of Lithium.
I was a little shocked when you said you would get only 2 hours of sail drive with all these batteries. Electric propulsion still has a long way to go. However, I can easily see a situation where you replace the diesel engines with electric propulsion and one big generator (on the other hand why replace the redundnancy of two motors for only one). Add to that batteries and solar pannels....I think that's what they try to do on the Gunboat RUclips video. Right now your video is definitive. Electric engines on a large (20 ton) sailboat is not the way to go. The difference in range of 10NM and 800NM is a bridge too far!
Exactly my thoughts too. Someone mentioned I made a big calculation mistake, which I corrected in the pinned comment above, but still. I think the storage is the weak component. We need to get better storage, lighter, smaller (more condensed), and more capacity. This is happening, but at a slow rate. From the pinned comment, one can see that Tesla is pushing that frontier very hard. They have magnesium instead of iron in the Lithium Magnesium Phosphate...so, it is happening :-)
Hi Frik, very interesting comparison. You did not mention the weight of diesel drives versus electric drive. The 45HP Yanmar SD60 is 220kg plus accessories (alternators, etc). The Oceanvolt SD15 is 47kg and 14.4kWh of batteries (4 12v*300ahr ReLion) is 152kg for total of 199kg. The motor control and cables to connect everything would probably be less than 20 kg and the diesel accessories. That gives a total of 28.8 KWh of battery storage for a catamaran.
Then there is the weight of a Genset (or two if you want redundancy). if the average saving on fuel with the hybrid drive is 33%, the 700 liters diesel tank would now be the equivalent of 931 liters (700* 33%=231 liters). The weight of 231 liters is 196.35 kg. A PolarPower 9-14kW generator is 153 kg and would easily power two SD15 drives and charge the batteries at cruising speeds. Two generators would easily drive both SD15 at max power and provide redundancy for a weight penalty of 110 kg for an equivalent range.
I also agree that the 2 SD15 drives are probably too small for the Leopard 45.
jerry
Ah, thank you, Gerry! Yes, it was mentioned before that I should probably add the engine vs motor weight to the diesel vs battery weight. But the moment you add any diesel and generator, one has to reduce the battery weight again, unless you want to argue that hybrid is still lighter? Anyway, I think Hybrids are the closest to get to clean energy, but for example, the Silent Yacht 55 has an option for 2x 250kW motors with a 100kW genset....that will take away all the advantages of saving weight wrt diesel vs batteries. My point was that when we look at diesel's energy density, then batteries still have a long way to come when one wants to go completely green i.e. no diesel on board. To drive the two 13kW motors in my example, one would require at least a matching 26kW (or more if you do not want the genset to overheat) genset, which is huge and is diesel thirsty...in our "one year..." video, I highlighted our experience with solar at 38N latitude in the winter....it is not even that high latitude, but we cannot get our batteries fully charged without diesel or shore power on 2.2kW of solar alone. The sun is way too low and too short in the sky for the solar to be efficient.
@@SailingSisu Hi Frik. I do believe the serial hybrid concept is the most "green" if you need/want range and/or speed beyond the limited energy density of today's batteries. Electric engines are most energy efficient and responsive, diesel is the most energy dense and stable fuel, and dedicated diesel generators are more compact and efficient converters of fossil fuel to electricity. Solar yachts (like Silent Yacht) and Wind yachts (sailboats) are great if you don't need to go far beyond the battery capacity and the Solar or Wind is not available or insufficient. If you need reliability and flexibility and want to be "greener" then hybrid is best solution today. Jerry
Hi Frik, are you going to use the engin water cooling system to heat fresh water?
what about small storm Jib sail?
what about ferling the main sail - using the beam?
I looked at all your films - very nice
thank's
Thank you for watching! Yes, the Leopard is using engin cooling system to heat water, but it also since we have Lithiums, it has electrical heating too. I am wondering about the storm jib, but no definite feeling around this yet. For now, we will just reef/furl the genoa a lot. I know Delos is using it and it looks awesome, the members on the Leopard or Catamaran groups using it are liking it (or some of the systems), but this is for me at least, a far away concept.
What your opinion about parallel hybrid-electric propulsion system?
Hi Joe! I think for now that is a good option!
I'm a electrical and computer engineer, and I'm all for electric everything. BUT, battery tech has to improve another 5-10 fold in energy density before it can be a viable substitute for diesel engines in long haul (no real charging option in between) applications. As you showed, the energy is just not there. Also, to consider only 2x15kw can put you in trouble very soon. There is a reason to be using 40hp diesels and not 20hp diesels, and the reason is, sometimes you need those 80hp to overcome current, wind, chop, or any combination of the previous. Most of the time you are just fine with only 30-40 hp... on the other hand, electric is brilliant for a daysailer that only needs the motor to get out of the dock. cheers
Exactly my thoughts! Thank you very much!
You need to get hold of Scott at Sailing the Space Between. I am installing a 16Kwh Lithium battery pack on my Leopard 40 which we get in Feb 2019. That is a bank from a Chevy Volt (333Ah@48V). I am thinking that either a Volt engine or a Nissan Leaf engine 'could' be converted.
Also, you may be able to contemplate a diesel/electric set up. You get rid of the yanmar engines and you keep the diesel generator. You end up getting rid of 2 of the diesel engines and reducing it to 1...the generator. Lower diesel use and maintenance. Many commercial vessels use this set up. Even with the generator running when motoring, your overall diesel consumption will be lower and your range will be a lot more.
The Hybrids are koowl and the best there is at the moment...The test would be to be able to run those motors for few days without cooling time or recharge time. We have no been twice in 6m breaking waves and 40+ kts of wind where we had to motor for 2-3 days without a break. Off course we took the hard way (80% upwind) going to the MED, which took us close to the section in the Doldrums where there is no wind for 600-700nm...we could just turn on the diesels and they run 24hrs for 5 days, no problem. The Rigging Dr stayed in the Northern Hemisphere and in the steady Trade Winds. I am sure you watched Delos where they sailed Namibia, St Helena, Ascension all the way to Brazil not using their engine at all, not even for dropping or lifting anchor! Crossing the Atlantic is very easy using the Trades, but try to sail 80 different latitude degrees without engine....or to rely on electric motors for days without a cooling of break... BTW, one of the reasons why we choose a cat was the redundency of having two motors...if the genset breaks, then you are in trouble if you need engines....
I'm building a 14,80 x 8 meter wide sailing catamaran and i been over al your links the past 4 years i think but with refurbisch Lithium battery's i will go electrical. I'm going to put in 2x 10kW BLDC 48 volt motors
Thank you for watching! How big? Like a km long by 8 meters wide?
it's a Waller 1480 almost 50 ft long
Hello Rob
My name is Bernie.
I'm contemplating building a Waller 1480 or the 1160 stretched to 1200 with longer sugar scoops.
I ran numbers on the 1480 and the 1200 fully electric powered. The Waller cats are much more lighter than all these mass produced catamarans
Where are you building your 1480
Drop me an email at kbberny@gmail.com and I would love to share with you my calcs regarding the e-drives
Hi Bernie, i'm building in Morocco i will drop you an email.
G’Day Frik, what timing! I’m also looking at the journey of buying a catamaran and starting my own adventures. I to have been looking at the topics you have just posted. I noted that you looked at the range, weight and cost and your measure was mostly against a Diesel engine. I understand it was just theoretical analysis and it does show the massive range distance electrical verses diesel and running time of the batteries. 2 hours at 5 knots is not much and at all and trying to keep up the charge via wind, solar and generation just to maintain enough power to run the electric motors seems to be a situation where conditions have to be perfect. The other thing is supplying power to all the other appliances and equipment on the boat......... so maybe for now a hybrid solution is the way to go?...... I’m going to speak to boat works and see how Kato performing. Cheers Chris
Hi, Chris! Yes, one should actually also calculate saving in engine weight and add that for extra battery weight, but space is then becoming an issue. Hybrid yes, but then one fuel tank has to stay then...
Another great video Frik! Thanks for keeping the topic alive and thinking outside the box so many of us are trying to get out of. Cheers.
Thank you for the kind words and thank you for watching! Yes, I try to keep a very open mind and also to be very realistic of the open mind :-D but I learnt that many people only think they are "most open minded" and that Frik is crazy :-D Anyway, watch this space, it is going to become very interesting ;-)
I think the answer would be hybrid boats and Catamarans using both liquid or natrual gas and electric engines. Thirty six years ago I was visiting friends in Sindelfingen Germany and at the time, Mercedes brought out liquid and natural gas hybrid cars, (the natural gas tank was located in the trunk) that Mercedes sold to the European market.
These cars never made it to the States but the car I rode in worked just fine, problem free in Germany at the time.
I agree 100%
Should I avoid buying a vessel with a sail drive?
Brain, that is a debate I don't get... I do get the thing of moving parts/gears vs shaft. What I don't see is the tens of thousands of SD owners complaining? Perhaps we should sail more than our 20,000nm to get the answer to that question 😅 perhaps that is a good topic for a video 😊
@@SailingSisu thanks
Carbon fiber mast and rigging versus Aluminium mast and rigging. Don’t see much difference for cats but stiffer more comfortable sail for monos.
Of course carbon could be lighter so help cats with over all loading.
Love to hear your thoughts.
Yes, it is lighter. Cats are much more sensitive to weight. Well, any boat really, Volvo Ocean race boats are very light too.
Did you consider the weight saving from replacing two Yanmar Diesel engines with electric drives? I think even if you then add a diesel generator and a smaller diesel tank, you might still be ahead.
Yes, they certainly weighs a lot, perhaps another 10-20 miles?
Very good informative talk thank you. I am very surprised about sailing uma's motor power they use a 36 feet boat with only 4.8kW at 36V, they use it at 48V so most likely kW is increased in such case. However it is still much less compared to what oceanvolt suggest 8.3kw for 36 feet. Also much more cheaper 125USD compared to 6000EUR :) So they destroy the saying of "initial cost of electric is expensive".
Thank you, Iza and Mazhar! Yeah, I follow them too! Lovely couple! Think then you saw the episode where the motor overheated in Ft Lauderdale and they had to overnight in the river before going on wards? The high volts and over sized boat are taking its toll on the motor, not IMHO a good combination in rough situations where one has to rely on the motor to get you through a rough time....
Hey Frik, have you looked at Silent Yatchs? Not a sailboat but fully electric. I see you looked at Moonwave, they have a fantastic system. Your issue seems to be around this notion of being fully self sufficient without ever using a generator but this is an unrealistic expectation. Even a Tesla Power Wall is connected to the grid and can use a generator if there is an extended black out due to bad weather. All electric motors and all batteries require recharging at some point and where this energy comes from will vary depending on where you live and recharge. Having a generator that you can use to recharge and extend your range will use way less fuel and still be better for the environment if that is your goal. In your weight analogy you take out a fuel tank but did not factor in the weight of the engines as these will also be removed, and electric drives weigh much less, plus you already have 4-8 batteries in your boat so you really will not be adding 12 new batteries. Ultimately if you want to change to fully electric you can you it is just a matter of how much you want to spend. Do not get hung up on having a generator as this is just like caring your own recharging station with you. There is no such thing as a fully self sufficient energy system, except many the Tesseract.
Thank you, Barry! Very good points you mentioned 😊 we do have 5x 200A for the house batteries and I have to say that we struggle to keep them above 30% with the 2.7kW solar and 800W wind gens. 30% is about what we use over night with two fridges and two freezers running with instruments and Radar. I am 100% confident that we would not be able to use the house banks for propulsion 😏 and then to keep those 2x 13kW motors running? A bloody big generator! So, yeah, replace the diesels with 'light weight' motors and one HUGE generator and we have to keep the fuel tanks... Currently, we have no generator on board. In short, we will then only add weight, not reducing weight further, whether I use a big genset or two diesels, I would be poluting' the environment 😊 not convinced 😅
Captain Frik, one of our 100% solar, silent E-catamarans recently crossed the Atlantic ocean. There was minimal use of the required by law single generator. It was a 64' but they also come in 46, 55 and 74'. If interested I shall send you much more details.
Yes, please! Can you inbox us on Facebook? I will add the links in the description.
Hello bob
Could you please forward me some info on your 100% solar cats
kbberny@gmail.com
I have added most of the links from the comments to the description, but they keep on coming in. So, start with the description links and then scroll through the comments. There are quit a lot but most of the comments points to the same 62ft solar wave gunboat.
I'm also a big Tesla fan (have a Model Y, the stock....). The thing about Tesla battery packs for vehicles is that they are self contained, sealed with a very efficient cooling and heating that doesn't require the batteries to be open to the air (sea air).
I'm curious where the whining noise comes from. My Tesla car is completely quiet except for wind noise.
I think hybrid diesel/electric are already practical for boats. The advantage for electrical motors are 1. incredible torque and 2. it's quiet. (Personally I'd like to see a swing propeller shaft - so the hull can be flush. A diesel engine with an electric motor at the back as both a propulsion source and a generator. The way most times something like this is attempted it's off the shelf, too much friction - doesn't work. The way Tesla does something like this is they go back to first principles and engineer it from the ground up. )
We do not have an electric motor and after living for two years on a boat trying to keep our batteries full... Do I know we will also not have motors for a time to come. So, not sure about the winning noise, but I guess there are a lot of gears to reduce the torque and speed of the electric motors. Keep in mind that a propeller will cavitate much faster than wheels spinning on a tarmac 😉 you can put huge props on, but it means longer shafts, deeper drafts, and so on. You can perhaps go jet propulsion because you have more torque?
I know you have talked a lot about battery technology, but have you considered LiFePO4? It's far safer than Lithium ion in that it has no thermal issue and doesn't catch fire. A far safer alternative for use on a boat and doesn't need to be cooled
Uhm...that was my initial mistake. Li-ion is actually cumulative for all Lithium type batteries, including LiFePO4. Laptop batteries have much more Cobalt and if you followed Tesla evolution, you would have noticed that they reduced the Cobalt component. Anyway, Victron is LiFePO4.
sorry, in my haste, I missed it the first time through. You did mention them, My bad. I have to say, you have a very informative channel and are thinking things through and doing it the smart way. I like the Hybrid system with a decent battery setup. It's similar to how the Chevrolet Volt Car works.
Grant, no worries, mate! Yes, I am for sure looking at hybrid systems, but I did not take it with this theme into consideration, because I wanted to compare apples to apples... Or at least tried 🤔
I like your take on the electric motor... but if u sail shorthand or solo... it probably best if u choose electric motor than combustion engine.. any combustion engine has to many moving parts... electric motor have way more advantage of maintenance where you can plug and play as long as you understand soldering especially the rotor...
Putra, sure thing. My first degree is electronic engineering and I must say, today's electric motors have more electronics than I can handle. I am for sure not a mechanic engineer, but I diesels just work... For decades. Just change filters and oil on a regular basis and they will pull you out of difficult times. I took a deep and hard look at my Victron Lithium system and it scares me...
@@SailingSisu yup.. that is the problem...
@@SailingSisu I'm curious of Membrane fuel cell.. someone told me its lighter... is it safe?
@@putrapratama-sq8hu I have no idea
Cruising catamarans usually have about 600 to 1000AH or so of Lead acid or AGM Batts plus 2 engine start batteries and maybe another bank for Windless etc so this weight could be deducted from the weight of the Lithium Batts and of course, they usually carry a 6 to 10KV genset anyway, in addition to the deisel engines so the weight of having a 15 - 20KV genset would only need take the upgrade weight into account. The fuel load would only be reduced to say 15 - 25 percent for the genset of what you would carry to feed 2 deisel engines.
And the weight of 2 Motors with drives compared with the weight of engines with gear boxes taken into account.
Agreed, but we do not have a genset....we only have two diesel engines with two alternators each.
My choice would be one electric motor, one diesel. The electric is for in and out of harbours, small trips. Diesel is to save your life.
Good idea!
Of course the big problem with diesel engines that don't get run regularly is that they tend to not run when you need them.
Did you know they make electric motors rated at 40hp?
All advice I can give is this. Always keep whatever you plan to float, very simple. Complicated stuff bites hard later. There is a reason why the saying says, a boat is a hole in the water, that you keep on throwing money into. I even shudder at common rail diesels. Good old standard injector pump,mechanical injectors handle even dirty diesel to a point, just replacing one common rail injector can make your eyes water. One reason why some sail without motors. But that brave I am not,and also not experienced and skilled enough. Meet a yacht sometime ago, they been sailing now for the better part of 15 years around the world 3 times(they trade from their yacht), no motor,besides a air cooled genny.
oh wow! I must say, I needed my diesels a few times now. But we have been sailing 80 different latitude degrees, which is way much harder than sailing the Trades in the tropics.
2 years later. What is you view now?
Lets say you have three engines to ensue power is provided to demand for your boat.
Oostenwald, the more I sail, the more I think diesels are required 😉 unless off course, you do day sail and can charge every night at the dock.
Im thinking of electric drivetrain and gen set with HHO kit. ( Some text says 25-45% better diesel economy per h.
sounds like a good idea!
Silent Yachts makes two catamarans which are CE certified Bluewater ocean crossing completely electric boats. They have a 55 foot and a 64 foot. They had them on displayed at the Annapolis boat show this year. I followed their development of that boat which they posted on RUclips. They circumnavigate it the planet on batteries and solar panel to prove it could be done. Awesome story.
Awesome stuff!
Another option to look at might be Liquid Piston motor theu run on almost any type of fuel giving a World cruiser lots of fuel options and can be adopted to Electrical! Check them out!
Will do!
I sincerely hope you respond to my request for attention to the detail of underwater appendages and their purpose and preformance . That also includes Rudder designs and drives.
Thanks for the videos!
Great suggestion, Norman! The Leopard 45 has big rudders with propellors forward of the rudders, while FP has their propellors aft of the rudders...wonder what difference it makes?
I have a very good friend with 2 Phds, one in fluid dynamics and one in physics/mathematics. He thinks that the best combo would be to get a big enough generator and a big enough battery bank (preferably of the lighter kind since you are on a catamaran) with some solar panels to top them up.
The electric motors can be powered off the battery bank and be supplemented by the generator when needed.
The advantages of this setup is that you'll have essentially only one diesel engine to maintain.
Moreover, the generator is much more efficient consumption and energy-wise (less energy is wasted from your fuel because generators are tuned to run at maximum efficiency unlike regular diesel motors that seldom run at their optimal point). You'll need probably to liquid-cool your electric motors to have them run for extended periods of time. This setup plus sailing would essentially give you a lot less dependence on fossil fuels (which I continue to support, but electric motors - especially brushless ones - are essentially maintenance free) and a very good range. A more silent propulsion as a very desirable bonus as well (with only the generator producing noise when used).
On the cons side, you will not have the redundancy of two separate reliable diesel engines, just one, and maybe some cost issues. You can of course sell the two diesel engines that come with any boat and get a lot of that cost back.
I wonder what others say about this idea.
Cheers!
Thank you for the response! You are aware that we currently do have all of that... Namely two diesel engines with two 130A Alternators each😉 the idea was to get rid of fossil fuel and smelly noisy diesels
Look up Elko marine, they have been making electric boats for over 80 years and they have outboard and big inboard setups available now,and lagoon made a few electric catamarans in 2002,there is one one on you tube that still sails on the original setup it was for sale in Florida
Jip, that almost bankrupt Lagoon group. They had to convert all the charter boats back to diesel...
@@SailingSisu I can believe that it was a crude system using big lead acid batteries and adapted industrial motors, there are many better setups out there now
@@SailingSisu I can believe that it was a crude system using big lead acid batteries and adapted industrial motors, there are many better setups out there now
@@SailingSisu I can believe that it was a crude system using big lead acid batteries and adapted industrial motors, there are many better setups out there now
Agree 100% Lithium is a game changer, but it is not yet a replacement for diesel
How does it work out with a gen set as a “range extender” as they call it on the Solar Wave catamaran?
yes, the gensets are commonly used as a range extender. When the batteries needs charging or needs fast charging, then you start the genset (so, you still need a diesel tank) to charge the batteries. I am thinking of a DC genset just to check out how much I would need it. My SCUBA air compressor and dingy engine will DC motors running from the batteries...so, I will start with that :-)
Great video although I believe you miscalculated the max range. You gave the max power rating for the motors when calculating the range of 9 NM, I wouldn't think for cruising you would need anywhere near the max power except in emergency and 1/4 - 1/3 power to get 5 knots might be more comparable to real world? I also believe total range is MUCH higher overall if you take into account how many miles you can cruise under power on and off over an extended time while filling the bank with Solar, Wind and regeneration when conditions are better for sailing. Last point would be most people have a generator in addition to propulsion you could use that to run hybrid mode for the times when you are becalmed for days.
Thank you, Keith. Yes, I mentioned in the description and pinned comment the mistake, but remember, I want to compare apples with apples to put this whole issue in perspective and what the real issue is. Batteries just do not store the same energy as diesel. True, one can hang around (as I mentioned) if it is safe, while waiting to charge while diesel will not charge, which was not the point of the calculation :-) the fact is, one can run out of batteries at a critical moment without capabilities to recharge quickly, while the diesel tank you know you have 800nm range.
Frik, at 19:45 you say 4x Powerwalls give you total 22kWh yet the Powerwall specs you showed earlier indicates 1 battery having 14kWh capacity. Why did you use 22kWh as total? To clarify I know very little about this topic except using storage batteries in my 4x4.
Also Tony Grainger lists electric motors as options for his Raku range of cats. It might be worth having a chat with him.
I totally agree with your findings, things still need to progress a bit further on this front.
Love watching you guys. When you hit Australia, come look us up for a bit of biltong, beskuit and droewors.
My golly gosh goodness, Herman, you are spot on! Yes, I mistakenly used the continuous power output instead of stored power. Well spotted! Will put corrected calculations in the pinned comment.
An additional topic for consideration could be genorators and power sourcing
I am busy compiling some long-term observations on our setup, but we do not have a generator on board and currently not really needing any?
Maybe filling the weight in difference between the diesel motors and electric with more batteries would give a boost on the Range. Also, going lower on the electric motor is more equivalent since it's more efficient in torque. So for a given RPM the electric motor could be much less than the diesel one. This would boost the range also.
thank you for watching, Lucas! both are good options and yes, the torque is awesome, however, even diesels have to turn down their impressive torque because of cavitation. That said...if you go through the comments, you will notice many viewers pointed to the solarwave gunboats and to "range extenders", which are basically a noisy smelly fossil fuel 13kW diesel generator :-) but it also brings back the weight :-( myself think that energy storage is still in the early developing phases and it will improve a lot. the motors? yes, make them more effecient, solar, make them more efficient, but the biggest one will be storage.
Are you two getting a enclosed bridge on Sisu or leaveing it open
Hi, Matthew! not sure what you mean? bridge? if you talk about aft cockpit, then yes, we are going to put an enclosure up for foul weather, if you are talking about the helm station, yes, enclosure there too. If you talk about the saloon, then I guess it is like a room with doors, also enclosed straight out of the factory floor :-) hope this answers your question?
the bridge is the helm of a boat
Use the solar panel to power superconductors that will run a motor and they can be charged up fully in 3-4 seconds and take 1 million + charges, compared to dirty lithium which would only take 1200 charges. And you would save on weight and space, And in the long run thousands, Because them heavy lithium battery rack will be needing replaced every 3-4 years outch!
I am following super capacitors, but as you mentioned, they are still getting into the picture, and there are not many devices that can charge 1000A in 3-4 seconds (except lightning). Myself is an Electronic Engineer who went over to the dark side of software engineering :-) but, please, give me the link to your sources for super capacitors (commercial, proven ones, not home made ones)
Capacitors are dangerous enough without adding corrosive atmosphere to the mix... I think you may be waiting on Graphene.
Great Presentation!! I learned a lot Thank You.
Thank you for watching!
You and I think much alike about using electric drive motors. I think differently about how to achieve Nm range however by adding a 20 to 30Kw diesel generator range extender and reducing your battery bank to a generous size for the house needs. Solar panels and a windmill sized to the battery bank will charge this bank while at anchor and while under sail the electric drive motors can regenerate the bank. I rather like the Oceanvolt SD15 drive motors if money is no object. Most of the time those 15Kw motors will not need to use more than maybe 8Kw on each motor, unless your Cat is heavily loaded. I hope your ideas work out for you.....
Thank you, Ed! Yes unfortunately, fossil fuel is the only way to extend range. My objective was to say that if one thinks that replacing the weight of the fossil fuel with batteries, think twice. It is at the moment, inevitable that electric propulsion will add weight and lots of it. Performance cats being put forward, weighs less than 10 ton (can use less to sail) and can sail easily 25 knots (easy to regenerate) while cruising cats weighs up to 20 tons and sail in 25 knots of wind in exceptional conditions, 15 knots. Cruising cats will just get more heavy with electric propulsion. I will go electric route eventually, but with open eyes :-)
You live in Leopard country I live in California, Lagoon country. Did you ever consider a Lagoon?
Yes, Lagoon is perhaps the biggest player and Leopard is perhaps their biggest competition :-) we saw the same optimization of storage spaces, but I like the new Leopard aggressive look 9ver the droopy look of Lagoon. 100% cosmetic choice there! Both boats are awesome.
It would cost me $46K to have a Leopard delivered to California
Oh wow! well, come over to friendly Cape Town and sail her yourself to CA!
A factor not seen in the comparison is weight of the motors. (i.e. the sum of fuel and motor vs. sum of battery and motor). While this will not reverse the imbalance it may move the pointer a bit.
Yes, you are correct and an oversight from my side. But I guess another 20 miles extra?
I personally think that electric is only an option if you're going to spend most of your time under sail, then your panels and or wind turbine are topping up your batteries. Also as, you said, when doing more than 4.5 /5 kn you can generate power with your engine. So in theory your batteries should be topped up for when you need that bit of engine power to help you out of a tight spot.
Another option would be a hydrogen fuel cell, but reliable supply of hydrogen could become an issue, unless you're prepared to sacrifice space on your boat to make your own hydrogen from seawater.... but again, that is dependant on you spending most of your day under sail.
I do think it's the future of power on the water, it's just a matter of time.
I agree 100%
Two Diesel engines for long-range motoring. Remember the boat gets lighter the more fuel you use.
One power wall & enough solar panels to run the boat without a generator while at anchor or just sailing.
When solid-state batteries arrive they will half the battery bank you need.
very astute observation! i only realized too late that the tesla powerwall could have been a good substitude for victron, but then again, they were not made for marine environment...further, they run at very differnt voltages optimized for 220VAC and I was uncertain wether I could convert to 12VDC... also, i upgrade my solar to 2.7kW and it is still not enough at the 40 latitudes to keep our 12kW lithiums at 100%...so, in practise...
Thanks for doing all the research and sharing your findings with us. You have a very good quality process one should do when buying a boat! ,,,,,/),,,,,
Lol, thank you for your kind words and thank you for watching!
A Tesla 85 kw battery pack (from the cars) weighs 540kg and comes in 16 modules, which can be positioned under floors or the beds to spread the eight and keep the weight low and central..
That is exactly what I am thinking about...
Hi guys,
Your weight numbers were off (see below).
I made a weight comparison between diesel vs. electric:
Weight of diesel system:
Weight of electric generator 275 kg.
Weight of two diesel engines 440 kg.
Weight of 700 liters of diesel 522 kg.
Total diesel system weight is 1,237 kg.
Weight of the Torqueedo system:
Weight of electric generator 275 kg.
Weight of two 33 kWh engines 176 kg.
Weight of high voltage 12.8 kWh batteries 147 kg.
Weight of low voltage 2.7 kWh batteries 25 kg.
Total Torqueedo system weight is 622 kg.
Weight reduction is 615 kg.
This includes the weight of motor electronics.
I am not sure if this includes the weight of the inverters, DC to DC converters, chargers, etc., but I doubt it will be 600 kg.
The Tesla wall by the way is 13.5 kWh.
I hope this helps.
Thank you! Always wanted to calculate the full systems, now we have it. This is awesome. Not that the video was about that, I intended only to see fossil fuel versus Lithiums. But I see your calculations indicate that one would not be able to double the batteries (should one find space) which means that one will not even double the range on batteries only.
You are correct.
This is not possible with the chemistry of those batteries and not with the current battery energy density, but check these video, and you might see a way to almost double the battery bank:
ruclips.net/video/PvCOcBynlq0/видео.html
The weight of the Tesla battery with four modules is 1,730 kg. for 80.3 kWh and 78.3 kWh usable.
The weight of two of these modules is 865 kg.
Subtract the weight of the Torqueedo high voltage and you are at around 715 kg, or a bit heavier in order to double the battery size.
So, I agree with you this would not be the best approach for this boat.
On the other hand Torqueedo or Oceanvolt do have vessels that have been in service for several years claiming a minimum of fossil fuel usage with their electric diesel generators. So, perhaps there is another approach.
I cannot talk from personal experience in having installed an electric engine system, but I can see other people using them successfully as long as they allow an electric generator aboard as a backup mainly.
In the final analysis, I admire what you guys are doing. This is a means to a goal.
I admire your open approach in analyzing everything, and more importantly, I admire your decision to change your lifestyle for a happier and healthier way of living. If we meet one day, I will be honored to buy you guys a beer. Happy and safe sailing.
Thank you, Eric!
The problem isn't just battery weight, but the weight of the naked boat you're trying to move in the first place. Both a bicycle and a truck can transport a person from A to B, but when you're trying to move a truck with an e-bike engine, it doesn't add up. The electric concept makes no sense for a boat as heavy as 10 tons or more.
*Let's for fun try a thought experiment and investigate what is the perfect concept for a (solar-)electric yacht:*
_[sorry this ended up as a VERY long read... I got carried away and kept adding because the topic is so exciting ;-) let's hope some readers share the interest]_
As a rule of thumb, at least about twice as many kW solar peak-power per ton of displacement are needed in order to end up with a good performance under continuous autonomy.
On the one extreme we see those little hydrofoiling carbon fiber Formula1-style racing boats in the Monaco Solar Challenge with more than redundant solar energy, while at the other end of the spectrum we have heavy luxurious liveaboard cats that by nature are at the very best anemic under renewable energy. Where is the middle-ground, performance- and utility-wise?
Silent Yachts (Austria) is probably the company that has the most experience with building yachts with (solar-)electric propulsion (with traditional mast/sails/rigging or kite-sails only as options). Their boats are quite impressive (and just as expensive...) and can make sense in _some_ use cases like predominantly coastal cruisers (although advertised as "trans ocean"), but they are also prohibitively heavy, at least in the context of a solar-electric concept, which is why they're also hybrids with a backup diesel generator for "just in case" during ocean-crossings.
Other companies like Soel-Yachts or AzuraMarine/Aquanima aren't doing much better. Even the PlanetSolar Tûranor, the first true solar boat that completed a circumnavigation under sun-power alone, had a relatively high displacement per solar-peak-kW ratio (89 tons/93.5kWpeak), probably as a consequence of its huge size (31x15 m) that required additional structural reinforcement.
It's a vicious circle: heavy boat --> more kW needed --> more battery weight needed --> even heavier boat --> impossible to sufficiently recharge those batteries on the go with solar or wind power alone.
Now imagine a 35-40 ft bluewater catamaran that doesn't displace more than ~ 4 tons, which is absolutely possible for a performance-oriented vessel with a smart foam-core sandwich construction (especially when you don't need to add weight for 2 heavy diesel engines, sails and rigging, not to mention that everything else like anchor chain, docking cleats etc can also be lighter for an already lighter boat). Something like 2x10kW Torqueedo-cruise outboards (~7500$ each; advantage of steered outboards: rudder weight+complexity+damage risk+extra drag+draft are obsolete) should be more than enough, even at very low throttle settings for a still good cruise speed. And because with solar it's all about efficiency rather than top-speed: the hull shape should stick to a displacement-type as much as possible, instead of semi-displacement-type with lots of inclined surfaces at the bow and a significant front rocker, like often seen in sail boats. In a solar-electric boat we wouldn't care about surfing on a strong downwind anyways, so we're not looking for any lift at all (any surface that creates lift also creates drag; top speed goes up, but efficiency goes down). Therefore an optimal solar boat hull would be closer to a flat-bottom kayak than a sailing vessel; no front rocker at all, sugar-scoops narrow below the waterline (=reserve boyancy mainly above waterline), combined with aft rocker to avoid a submerged transom.
Btw: the steerable dual outboards, as mentioned above, have the additional benefit of improved maneuverability at slow speeds, compensating for the impaired maneuverability (but better tracking!) that would otherwise be the price of having no front rocker at all.
With such a vessel now the overall concept works: it's possible to sufficiently recharge the batteries on the go while staying net neutral over the period of a typical 24h day.
Let's say the peak solar power is 10 kW (e.g. 30 panels à 340W, which fit on a boat of that size, requiring a large flat roof of about 8.4x6 meters): even when you're only getting a third of the theoretical peak power (i.e. 3-4 kW), this is still enough to move such a light vessel at reasonable speed. And when the kW/h requirement is low in the first place, also less batteries are needed to make it through the night (at least at moderate speed). In reality, the solar output will be higher than the mentionend third of the theoretical peak power at least during the hours around noon, which is when the energy spent during the last night is recharged.
As an example, a Pylontech US3000 LiFePO4 battery weighs only 32 kg for 3.5 kWh (@48V) each, as a complete package, including battery management (and can be found at around 1250 Euro each). Take about 8 of those (that's 28 kWh total) and it's already enough to make it safely through the night with such a light boat, without adding lots of extra battery weight. Much more makes no sense unless you're saving up energy in advance while staying at anchor, because there wouldn't be enough excess energy to recharge more battery capacity over the course of a given day while also being under continuous power.
In higher latitudes or after very cloudy days, pausing (and sleeping!) for a few hours during the second half of the night (whilst holding positions with a large drogue deployed to avoid leeway) could be a better option than going very slow the entire night. This strategy would probably also depend on wether the seastate conditions require active management. Series drogue or para-anchor could serve as emergency backup for very rough seas at night under limited battery reserve.
Nice bonus of all that solar area: it can double as a giant rain collector, so even the water tanks can be smaller/lighter for longer passages.
In other words: the solar-electric concept has it's merits even as a standalone-propulsion with full autonomy, but not with something like a Leopard 45 or not with wide-beam demi-hulls, not with water-maker, aircon, washer-dryer and lots of non-structural furniture. On the other hand a solar-catamaran that has little more than electric engines, batteries+charge controllers, solar panels, anchor locker, furniture that doubles as structural elements and only the most basic appliances (head, shower, pantry): yes, it should absolutely be feasible to build this at
Wow! Thank you, Christian! This was now very informative! Yes, I agree with you. You have to build the boat around the solar specs and not the other way round. Weight is everything. Sisu's weight increased with almost a ton just by having the solar, solar support, batteries, inverter, BMS, Lithium under and over protection, busbars, kilometers of heavy gauge 12V wire, MPPTs, Chargers, Charger-Controllers, and monitor systems/networks.
I guess another point is exactly what you said. You need a lot of solar, I mean a lot. We have 2.7kw solar and I rarely see nowadays over 900W coming in. In the first couple of months in Cape Town we never left the 100% charge, nowadays we have the run the engines (no genset) every third day to get the batteries holding through the night. I can already see me replacing the solar every few years or just be happy that their efficiency is deteriorating every month. Or perhaps it is the Lithium that is getting old and not so efficient anymore. I do not know, but we are now in our third year and our Lithium/solar/windgen system is at 60% of its initial performance. I thought it was the high latitudes, but we are now in Antigua and Petro already told me that we are at 30% again. We do not use aircons, we do not use the electric kettle, we do not have an induction plates. The biggest is our two laptops with big graphic processors, our cameras and drone batteries, and then the Battery Monitor and Management System itself.
@@SailingSisu Thanks for answering. I guess another part of the reason why solar efficiency can be diasappointing with sailing vessels is frequently being in the shadow of sails and mast. A few percent of shadow coverage are enough and the output of the affected panels will drop to almost nothing. Even the mast shadow alone (+radar, antennas...), with reefed sails, could be enough. I observe that with my RV, where I put 900 W peak onto the roof: I'm quite surprised by its high efficiency, even over here in german latitudes, but it's enough to be parked next to a street lantern and the panels in that narrow little shadow are temporarily dead. And keep in mind: connecting several panels in series like it's usually done in order to run the system under a higher voltage (=smaller wire gauge required, less losses within the wiring, higher efficiency in cloudy conditions) also implies that even if only a single panel is covered by a little shadow, all other panels in that series are 'dead', too.
Exactly
@@SailingSisu Slight correction regarding my thought process for the last sentence: the bypass diodes should deal with that (yet still, of cause _internally_ the cells in individual panels are also wired in series, so the problem with partial coverage remains unsolved).
Okay.. I'll shut up now ;-) Have a nice day!
Thank you, Christian!
Quite interesting. I agree that diesel is not necessarily a fossil fuel, but a result of some other process deep in the earth.
Excellent! Was wondering who will pick up that conversation :-) I think it is like diamonds...just a bit more sloppy process. Seems like certain elements like to bunch together (in ore or other forms) to form interesting elements, which turn into minerals.
@@SailingSisu I'm pretty sure Deisel is a by product in the process from making petrol
the Us navy/ other navy's have used diesel electric motors for years. like since WWI. I am not going to jump to deep so anyone that jumps a pin point of the topic just know Im not writing a book even if the sort version is long. just because an electric motor is not likely going to be a full stand alone motor any time soon (outside of small/ race boats) does not mean it is not the way of the future. it just mean you have to mix the two (hybrid) and increase the range, and performance. lets use a 15 kw motor you have two of them and this becomes 30kw of power. 30 kw will move the boat at 9 kn this the range is 9 kn an hr (the hr is important soon) now a diesel uses two motors as well. the variables are to great to go to deep but lets say the 3YM20 and the said 15 motor at the same. the yanmar uses 1.4 over normal temp range. so thats 3 gph. Now lets move to hybrid and let us use that fuel burn to rate the engine. a small car turbo diesel that puts out 180-230 hp (130- 180kw) now our target is 45kw of power. again each engine is different so I will be using the chevy 2.0 turbo diesel. at 2700 rpms the rated shaft RPM that a 45 kw Stamford alternator calls for the 2.0 burns roughly 3 gph. now that thats out of the way lets do the math. scale distance traveled over 24hrs based on fuel burn. both travel 216 kn diesel engine burned 72 gals that day the hybrid burned 48 gals 8 of the hrs it is running on battery only. now I know you are saying but the weight this is solved by not thinking in the aspect of full hrs. if the batteries can only run the motors for 15 then the motor runs for 30mins. in the end the sum is always 24 hrs just more starts and stops but less weight. I will say the higher weight is less of an issue for the electric motor. this is cause this type motor is able to maintain high torque even in higher rpm. where a diesel loses the torque with every RPM great at low bad at high. gas bad at low good at high. electric good across. this is why anyone that uses a electric motor will tell you 15kw motor isnt equal to a 21 hp fuel motor. more like a 50/60 maybe even 70 hp.
Sure
I have got the same thought of converting to electric propulsion. But I fear - if you really want the same range as diesel provides - we have to wait a few more years until
a) energy density in lithium improves
b) costs are coming way down by cheaper materials used in these cells and bc of mass-production
c) fuel cells (e.g. methanol based or propane) are more comon and replace nowadays diesel generators to close the energy gap
These things will take the next 5 to 10 years to be reality.
But ... I only use my engine for entering / leaving the marina ... and in a storm ... hey, I've got sails to use ;-))
Agree 100%
Ps great videos - many thanks - enjoy!
Glad you like them!
You have not mentioned the fact that you can have one small generator or fuel cell to extend the range of your oceanvolt system
Yes, I did not because that was not the exercise :-) if I was to follow the genset route, then the diesel tank and noisy smelly tractor engine would be back taking the weight and space of the Lithiums :-) the point was just to compare apples to apples, weight to weight...
consider looking at elco electric marine motors...they have the complete set up.
Thank you, Diane! I added it to the Description :-) Thank you for watching!
Hi Frik
Have you looked at SolarWave? (www.solarwave-yachts.com/english/ or their new site www.silent-yachts.com/) They seem to have cracked the solar motor issue.
To take your comparison another step forward, remove the weight of the sales and mast (and ropes) too and add that to the weight of the batteries you can carry. You can also remove the difference in weight between an electric motor and the weight of the diesel engine (plus all the spares and oils you need to carry for the diesel engine). I think that all the above combined will add a significant amount of extra battery weight you can carry and give you a lot more electrical power.
On another note entirely, since you're in touch with Leopard, there's a feature I'd love to see all manufacturers add to their yachts and perhaps you can get Leopard to add it to their range. A fixed window just below the water line on either side would be great! You can see the entire pod of dolphins (or whatever) are swimming near the boat while under way and, particularly in shallow water, it is useful to check for depth and also useful for spotting the better places to snorkel so you don't have to waste time with trial and error from the surface.
I really enjoy your videos and like your analytical approach to everything. I'm particularly glad that Leopard will make changes in light of your findings and think that you are doing the community a great service with your channel. Thank you very much indeed!
Cheers,
Trevor
Thank you, Trevor for the kind words!
Yes, looked at the weight, but still even those solrwave gunboats have a diesel genset onboard including the smelly smokey fossil fuel engine (they call them "range extenders" but it is a 15kW genset)....which put all the weight back again. Unless off course if I missed the part where they say they can sail 800nm with the lithiums only. keep in mind, it is not always sunny, it is not always windy...
How much is your yearly insurance
A lot 😊 check ep 22. ruclips.net/video/CUevM7QJ7UY/видео.html
The main disadvantage of electromotor is the price at moment. Oceanvolt complete system for a Leopard 45 cost 100,000 Euro (2 times 50,000 Euro for actual 2 systems). A normal diesel engine costs just 20,000 Euro (so 2 times it is 40,000 Euro). You can buy a lot of diesel for 60,000 Euro ...
But I consider Oceanvolt as really overpriced at moment. In China you get the batteries for 1/3 of their price, any ordinary electromotor costs just 1/10. And the electronic costs in production just a handful dollar. The only thing that costs is the overhead of the company. It is for sure room to cut the price by 2/3 next years.
Because a leopard weighs what it weighs, if your 48' cat weighed say 10,000lbs less then the picture changes ......
Those are retail prices..OEM much less...
In the video I tried to chuck away the diesel and used its weight (missed the engine weight though...) to replace the diesel with Lithium. We are currently 38 degrees north and must say, the sun is out only a few hours on a sunny day, and if it is out, its path is way low over the horizon, and then there is the MED rain...our 2.2kW solar is just not enough to charge the Lithium, even if the boom is out of the way and we are at anchor (no sails up to shadow the panels). The kettle, lights, computers, chargers, etc. is eating up more electricity than the panels can bring in! If we sail, then even on a sunny day, the sails shadow the panels....sorry, to break it to you, but one needs sun, a lot of sun. Perhaps all the awesome links and tests I have seen so far, are either motor cats, or sailing only Trade Winds where lots of wind and sun is more overhead. I cannot see how our charging system can support two electric motors too...
Thanks, you made a lot of sense!
Thank you, so glad we can contribute!
sorry, but i'm a bit confused... are we talking about a sail boat? because these systems (as far as i understand) are designed for a sail boat, where you can top up your batteries as you sail...therefore, your range is practically unlimited, instead of your range limited by the amount of diesel you can store, and when that's finished you have no engine, power generation, etc.
electric engine/generator and batteries on a sailing yacht is a no brainer if you really think about it, specially with all the auxiliaries like solar and wind to add to it.
The Hybrids are koowl and the best there is at the moment...The test would be to be able to run those motors for few days without cooling time or recharge time. We have no been twice in 6m breaking waves and 40+ kts of wind where we had to motor for 2-3 days without a break. Off course we took the hard way (80% upwind) going to the MED, which took us close to the section in the Doldrums where there is no wind for 600-700nm...we could just turn on the diesels and they run 24hrs for 5 days, no problem. The Rigging Dr stayed in the Northern Hemisphere and in the steady Trade Winds. I am sure you watched Delos where they sailed Namibia, St Helena, Ascension all the way to Brazil not using their engine at all, not even for dropping or lifting anchor! Crossing the Atlantic is very easy using the Trades, but try to sail 80 different latitude degrees without engine....or to rely on electric motors for days without a cooling of break... BTW, one of the reasons why we choose a cat was the redundency of having two motors...if the genset breaks, then you are in trouble if you need engines....
I’ve also thought of going electric and putting a two speed gearbox on the motors with having 3 seperate water cooled battery banks so they can cool while they charge with having alternators on the motors with a smart system that divides the power between the batteries that are under temp as well as the wind & hydro generators + solar
Ev West have some good tech
Thank you for watching, Robert! Tell me...are you then thinking of a duel (not hybrid) system when you talking of alternators?
No ev West do a bracket for their electric motors which you can attach water pumps and alternators I reckon the system would pay for its self with in 2 years not having to buy fuels oils besides the gearboxes have a look into their sight they have RUclips videos as well but they are doing it on cars and to what you said about getting out of a bad situation you could always install a generator for back up
Sailing Sisu b
Quote: " if there is a storm and there is no wind and... "
Just found this funny :)
One of those ands should be an or 😅
Hi
You didn’t mention the most important advancement is battery power...
The new advancement is...
The new electric super cars don’t have batteries, they have super capacitors!!
Supercapacitors
A) don’t have a limited charge cycle, so after 10 years they behave like new
B) they can deliver all their charge in a lightning bolt, batteries cannot deliver that amperage
C) not effected by temperature. Trucks use super capacitors in icy conditions
D) can recharge very quickly
E) really light weight, esp compared to a battery
Cons:
A) they still cost more than batteries... but that won’t be for long
B) for the same capacity as a battery super capacitors need more space
I am following super capacitors, but as you mentioned, they are still getting into the picture. Myself is an Electronic Engineer who went over to the dark side of software engineering :-)
Did you know Lagoon made a 420 with a Hybrid option. It did not go over well!
Thank you for watching, Matt. Yes, I did not want to mention that, but the whole charter group took a serious hit because of that, hence the reluctant attitude of the CEO...
theres a charter gunboat in thailand thats hybrid, worth alook.
The Hybrids are koowl and the best there is at the moment...The test would be to be able to run those motors for few days without cooling time or recharge time. We have no been twice in 6m breaking waves and 40+ kts of wind where we had to motor for 2-3 days without a break. Off course we took the hard way (80% upwind) going to the MED, which took us close to the section in the Doldrums where there is no wind for 600-700nm...we could just turn on the diesels and they run 24hrs for 5 days, no problem. The Rigging Dr stayed in the Northern Hemisphere and in the steady Trade Winds. I am sure you watched Delos where they sailed Namibia, St Helena, Ascension all the way to Brazil not using their engine at all, not even for dropping or lifting anchor! Crossing the Atlantic is very easy using the Trades, but try to sail 80 different latitude degrees without engine....or to rely on electric motors for days without a cooling of break... BTW, one of the reasons why we choose a cat was the redundency of having two motors...if the genset breaks, then you are in trouble if you need engines....
How about a Hybrid drive? Much like cars Electric motor with a small diesel motor running at most efficient speed to charge and lithium batteries only when required?
Yes, I mentioned the DC genset? This is the "range extender" on the Oceanvolt and Torqeedo systems. So, very possible. But you need big enough genset to provide those 15kW motors the power they need should your batteries run out. Look at Rigging Doctor, their monohull weighs far less than our L45 and they need a small genset to go 2 knots sustaining. But this would for sure need to be the way to go. Batteries alone (for at least with the current commercial technology) with Solar, will not work.
Hybrid is only economically viable in a situation that you need a lot of power for small periods and a lot less power for longer periods. For instances, think a tug boat with 5 x 1000hp generators and a 4k kw electric motor. Most of the time it will only run 1 or 2 of the generators to move arround and do it thing, but some times it will need the 5 to tow a big ship. That is your saving in hybrids... if you have to run the only generator most of the time to serve the electric motor, there is no point, just more complexity. (cars with range extender as a different story, 90% of the time a car uses only a small fraction of its power, so it can go by with a very small internal combustion engine to fill up the batteries, sailboat while crusing, use a high percentage of the available power and constantly)
exactly! not many people see it that way....yes, boats can use sails and wind, but when it comes to motor sailing, or just plain motoring (which is unfortunately a big percentage of the time), then the water drag/resistance is the juice sucker :-)
Hey Fritz, I found these two videos featuring Dave Tether of Emotion Hybrids that I know you will enjoy. It's all theory with graphs from a Catamaran Owner that explains the efficiencies of a Hybrid System over the diesel systems. And this was back in 2010 when he gave the presentation.
At that time he stated Hybrid Electric systems had gone mainstream. So my question is, what is preventing us from doing it today? I like the Electric Serial Hybrid Option, meaning, an Electric Motor with a Multifuel GenSet that is more efficient than any diesel engine can be.by itself and it allows for multiple inputs, such as Solar, Hydro and Wind as well as da dock hookup if desired to charge th3e batteries.
1. American Sailing Club and Emotion Hybrids - Choosing Your KW motor size - ruclips.net/video/OW8mzN-KPN4/видео.html
2. ASC & EH - Diesel Electric Propulsion VS Hybrid Diesel Electric Systems - ruclips.net/video/DDPcB--VxqQ/видео.html
Let me know what you think.
Thanks!
Like you have, I've been researching electric propulsion. The way I calculate is first determine how much propulsion power you actually need for a happy cruising speed. Like the 13 kW @ 5 knots you mention, I then multiply by 6 or 7 for minimum peak power in opposing high current and wind.
A more efficient example than your catamaran is the 25-ton Silent-Yachts 64 that appears need 12 kW for 6 knots, 50 kW for 10 knots. ruclips.net/video/oMq-Ksj0Kho/видео.html
24 hours at 5 knots for you is 312 kWh, for Silent-Yachts and 6 knots it's 288kWh.
Heavy and inefficient designs are less feasible for electric propulsion without significant regen and solar because of battery size, weight and the time it takes to charge them. You need double of everything.
My rule of thumb is if you want a fossil fuel free boat at a constant power output for 24 hours, then depending on how you use it you really need 2-6 six times the cruising propulsion power in solar, 1 times regen, and 6-18 times in battery.
eg. 1 kW of propulsion for 24 hours = 24 kWh of energy divided by 4 kWh/kW solar efficiency = 6 kW of solar panels = 18 kWh battery = 18 kWh regen at night. So in 6 hours of sunlight you're producing on average 24 kWh of energy, 6 kW of which goes to motoring when the sun is out, 18 kWh of which you need to store in batteries to motor for the other 18 hours in a day, but if you have wind day or night you can be charging with regen.
If you only travel in summer climates then you might get away with half or less of the amount of solar, eg 3 times the propulsion in solar power and 9 times the battery. Maybe 2 times if your solar panels are highly efficient.
For your 13 kW cruising propulsion Catamaran that would be a minimum of 26 kW of solar and not feasible.
When there's no wind, there's no using regen like Torqeedo's Deep Blue or Oceanvolt's Servoprop which is only 800W at 6 knots. And wind generators aren't much different.
But with wind and enough regen things can look different.
2 times ServoProps at 6 knots for 24 hours is 38 kWh. On a small catamaran that would meet all it's battery charging needs.
For your larger cat with 2 kWh of solar that's on average 8 kWh a day for a total with regen of 46 kWh, so you'd need to sail 7 days with regen for every one day without wind if using a 312 kWh battery (3 times Tesla P100D battery; about 1650 kg). The more regen, the shorter that gets.
For some people they may only need enough energy to motor in and out of territorial waters to dock and don't mind sitting idle when there's no wind. That's about 24 nautical miles into and out of UN convention countries or 8 hours motoring at 3 knots. At 1 kW propulsion and 3 knots that's 8 kWh of battery. I see most smaller DIY electric monohulls with about this.
Otherwise just use a diesel genset. If you calculate diesel energy density and efficiency (~45%) compared to current lithium ions and electric motor efficiencies (~90%), you need about 6.7 times the volume of diesel in batteries to match. Liquid ammonia and hydrogen fuel cells may be another option in the future, but like superchargers they don't exist at marinas yet. Even if the energy density of batteries does go up by 6.7 times in the future, 312 kWh becomes 2100 kWh of energy to charge, and at a marina using those *two* 240V@16A shore power leads it will take 11.5 days to charge.
In my mind the key to feasible cruising electric sail boats is having enough solar, wind and regen, and only having enough battery to buffer these energy sources.
Battery aging is another thing to consider. FWIW, if you look at the Australian Battery Test Centre reports, the life cycle of the original Tesla Power Wall isn't that good.
Wow, yes, I can see and follow your calculations and I agree. I will test what I have and then see what I need more and see if that is doable. Petro has all sorts of electrical cooking stuff in mind too. So, not all battery power will be going for propulsion...
You may want to watch Nigel Calder describe the Integrel 8 kW generator system for diesel engines. ruclips.net/video/wfX96IWA6m8/видео.html It's just a pity this system doesn't appear to be electric propulsion or hydrogeneration capable, but maybe it is. If it is, I'd think a system like that that would probably suit your boat. Two 8 kW electric motor/generators for silent cruising and hydrogeneration under sail, together with two propulsion diesels for higher power propulsion and battery charging.
Thought you might be interested in this video about the original Solarwave 45, 10.5 tonne boat with 8.5 kW of Solar that produces on average 50 kWh of energy and needs 2.2 kW and 400 RPM to travel at 3 knots. ruclips.net/video/PIGIzOrF1CM/видео.html
www.solarboot-projekte.de/solarboote/solarboot-uebersicht/
Very interesting. I can tell you about my electric build on an aquila 44. You can see it running by searching novaluxe on youtube
Craig, I checked out the Integral generators, but they are super expensive. Besides a few small points, do I already have at 1,500rpm on both engines, 400A going into the Lithium. The Sterling regulates the temperature as well as where the charge should go first, for example, AGM starter batteries and then the Lithium. For AGM, the Sterling reduce to little Amps for AGM, and 400A for the Lithium.
Buying salvage batteries from Tesla Cars would change the cost significantly. There is no need for a transmission, no oil changes, no filters, and I’m guessing propellers can be more efficient since torque is constant. Having a generator/charger on board is not an additional item, since most boats that size will have one. I hate Sailors that rely on motoring beyond docking.
Yes, if I do go the electric way (that is if I can sort our charging or lack of charging issues out) then it would be the Tesla batteries!
hi Frik, John hier van Saldanha,het jy al die solarwave gekyk
Yes, baie nice! Maar ek kan 100% op hierdie oomblik bevestig dat ek super happy is om my diesels met hulle krag en afstand te hê! Ons laaste twee weke was horrendous. Of geen wind of 34kts true wind! Daai diesels het vir dae (24hour dae) aaneen gehardloop. Ons het baie mistige of onweer dae gehad waar solar omtrent niks gecharge het... Electrical motors sou ons verseker in die steek gelaat het.
This E480 was delivered to the Caribbean on her own bottom from Cape Town......
very impressive indeed! but just to throw a bone in the works....Atlantic crossings from east to west are very easy with the Trade Winds....if you may recall, Delos did the crossing without even using the engine...Namibia, St. Helena, Ascension, and Brazil ... anchoring and leaving anchorage all without their engine (or autopilot for that matter)...
There is not much energy per square foot available from sunlight, even in the tropics. If you just want to motor a sailing yacht into and out of a dock in your weekend yacht, that's OK. It is not powerful enough for anything serious. If you just want to use it very briefly and at very long intervals, diesel won't have much CO2 production anyway. I've done the calculations.
My thoughts exactly. We just finished a 3,900nm passage and we had to motor in total for about 5 days. Three days continously 24 hours a day... No electric motor would have done that.
oceanvolt pushes a 48' cat along nicely at 7 to 8 knots.....enough for me.
(Indefinitely I might add)
The Moonwave? In the video she states 6 minutes to 4 hours....that is almost on par with my calculations.... of 20nm
There are a lot of misconceptions in this video about using electric motors. I won't go into them all, but saying that you can go 800 miles on diesel and only 10 on electric is the first misconception. The proper statement would be, you can go 10 miles on Electric (which is also incorrect, you can get more like 30 miles on a reasonable battery bank) and zero miles on diesel... without using fuel for either one. Then, on the electric hybrid, after you go your miles without using diesel, you can fire up a generator and continue on diesel, where with the diesel you have already been burning fuel. Now, the next thing people tell you is that the hybrid is less efficient then a straight diesel when using fuel. What they forget to calculate is that you also regenerate more electric power as you sail. In the end, this more than makes up for the difference in efficiency, and you can simply travel further on the same amount of fuel with a hybrid diesel system than you can on a standard diesel. How much further? That depends on the amount of solar and if you are using the new Oceanvolt servoprops for regeneration. Then there is the fact that while you motor on a generator, it can also recharge your batteries at the same time, buying you even more time without running on smelly, noisy diesel that you often have to jerry can onto your boat from a dingy (in may locations). A hybrid system has advantages in almost every area... except one. Cost. There is no doubt that initial cost is currently WAY more expensive, but what is your comfort worth? I calculated out the savings over 10 years cruising, and the two systems will nearly be a wash in the end, that's how much fuel you can save, and that's a LOT of diesel I don't have to find, carry, clean, and smell while in exotic places.
Thank you, Phillip! All valid points, but first point I wanted to make is that per same kilograms of 700 liter diesel, the same 700kg weight in batteries. And I stated that right in the beginning. Further, I need 2 x 45 hp to drive that 20 ton cat, so, one should need the equivalent in kW. Hence why I said apples with apples, but it is difficult so, let me just use kg and kW as a starting point to proof that one should not think that replacing the weight of your batteries and the weight of the engine with drive train batteries. Lastly I also stated that yes, one can weight and the sun or wind or hydro will charge, but one for safety reasons, have to consider that those are 2 x 13kW motors and no current technology exists to fit that charging capacity on the cruising cat without sacrificing structural integrity and serious performance hits. You only generate power when you sail with wind only...which is far less than many people think. Further, if you look at the all the links in my description and the links from the comments, you will notice a trend in the type of boats...it is high performance carbon fiber cats which weighs more than half of the 20 ton cruising cat. Those performance cats goes very often above 20 knots and then the hydro regen is excellent! Uhm...running on generator is smelly fossil diesel...the word hybrid does not mean you do not use diesel and you do not have smelly noisy smokey diesels...hybrids are using diesel engines hence why hybrid is even worse, because you have to keep the weight of the engine and the diesel on the boat. Don't get me wrong, I am going to start with hybrids, I just need to look for a 45hp diesel with a sail drive hybrid. I am sure I will be in the first group of cruising sailors to go fully electrical over oceans. Read that carefully again and focus on the word cruising, not racing, not high performance, but a 20 ton fat and heavy cruising catamaran with lots of luxuries such as microwave ovens, chargers, TVs, computers, lights, music systems, freezers, hot water, air conditioners, etc. Tough call, mate! Our electricity system just for these luxuries, is already $60k! But that will come up in a video soon, so, keep on watching!
The Oceanvolt servoprop changes those number significantly. Each (of two on a cat) recharges at 1 kwh at 6.5 knots, a speed easily achieved by your Leopard. That is two kilowatts per hour (more if you can sail faster than 6.5, but let's use that number). If you figure you can sail 50% of the time (a generally accepted number, on a trade wind passage you can probably do better) you can charge 24 kilowatts in 12 hours of a single day. With a solar bank of 3 kilowatts (also achievable in the space on many a catamarans due to the large salon roof), and figuring about 5 hours a day, that's an additional 15 kwh recharge. That is 39 kwh (total) recharge, which means you can leave port and motor for about 30 miles, recharge during the voyage (assuming about a 30 kwh battery bank) and motor again for another 30 miles. That's sixty miles, per day, not burning diesel. Figure that the average cat is going to travel around 150 miles in a day. Assuming you sail at least 50% of that, you have to motor 75 miles. 60 of those would be without diesel use, meaning you have to motor, with a generator on, for 15 miles. Now think about all the shorter passages you do, in many of these cases you won't even have to turn on a diesel generator at all. Now, lets talk about the generator. A 20 kwh generator will drive a single 15 kw servoprop motor running at half speed (all you need to move at a decent speed and the same thing you typically do with a diesel engine) and, at the same time, the generator will send some power to your battery bank. Even if that is only 5 kwh, that's still significant recharge of the batteries, buying you even more time without running diesel fuel. If you figure about 20% less efficiency in fuel due to conversions, it still doesn't make up for the fact that you only need to use the generator to go 15 miles a day where a diesel boat uses a diesel engine for 75 miles a day (about an 80% savings). Now, the benefits. With a 30 kwh battery bank, you can run your air conditioning all night, without burning diesel fuel. You can make water, without using diesel fuel, take more showers, etc. Over a ten year period, assuming you are circumnavigating (not sitting in a marina) in the trip I planned out I would save about 25,000 hours of listening, smelling, and hearing diesel. I will get to buy about 7,500 gallons less diesel, and that means I won't have to carry a lot of that fuel in Jerry cans, to and from shore, in taxis, etc. in many remote places in the world. Sure, the hybrid system is more expensive, initially, but you can make that money back over time and while you do, life will certainly be more comfortable. You mentioned weight. Using two diesel generators (a 20 kwh and a 10 kwh) as backups in case of the rare need to motor at full power continuously for a long period. A 30 kwh battery bank, and 3 kwh of solar panels, the weight difference in the the system I measured is about 200 lbs. I can live with that for all the benefits of the electric system. Finally, it is true you can motor about a half a knot faster at full speed, in the right conditions, with the diesel engine over the hybrid. Again, a trade off I'd be willing to make for all the other benefits.
I wanted to pass this along to you. I found Helen Bells comment over on Sailing Doodles video I posted below for you all. She apparently so far is the ONLY person and Sailing Vessel that I have found that has for the past 3 years been using Solar exclusively, she only uses electric engines and NO Diesel or fossil fuel, has done this for 3 years.
Via Hellen Bell: ruclips.net/channel/UCp0kh2ETw32RIqO0yiF95Lg
We've been running our 45' cat for three years on 1800w of solar with lifepo4 batteries and no generator. We run air con, microwVe, toaster, three freezers, two fridges etc etc etc off our batteries. Lithium and solar is the future of energy.
Better batteries are more efficient at charging and discharging and lots of solar each with their own mppt controllers are the two most important features., along with oversized wiring to reduce losses. Our batteries are lifepo4 lithium iron phosphate and we have. 800ah at 24v or 1600 ah st 12v
lifepo4 lithium iron phosphate and we have. 800ah at 24v or 1600 ah st 12v
If you need more info on there Solar Journey and REAL LIFE working solution over the past 3 years, then contact them over on their Symmetry III and a little Chaos Too Facebook Page at:
facebook.com/Symmetry-III-and-a-little-Chaos-Too-566872213459133/
Wow! Excellent info! thank you, you are a real source of information!
You need to watch the Gunboat 60 "MOONWAVE" for a very up-to-date video on electric motors and an all-electric boat !! And the electric docking system. F.A.B.U.L.O.U.S. !! The actual YouTbe video is moonwave powerpack for info on how the system works.
Thank you, Richard and thank you for watching! That link is in the description :-) but couldn't find anywhere what the actual range is. But, yes, super performance cat, all fibre, all honeycomb resin hulls, weighing half what my L45 will weigh
ruclips.net/video/y-zHceQ0Qu4/видео.html and ruclips.net/video/-FXLvQtG36w/видео.html
"Gunboat". Isn't that like $2 million BEFORE the electric systems? I believe with that kind of cheese you can do whatever you want!
When the solid state batteries are developed ep will make more sense.
I agree, and the super capacitors also sound promising
If you look on RUclips " hidden tecnology" and " hydrogen" if this resent tec with molekyl add comes thru the idea with electric motors on sailboats and hydrogen powergenerator going to push forward clean tec with less battery stack.
On ocean volt home site there is several electric builds...good luck .
Thanx for the comment, Bjorn. I would say my best bet at the moment is the HH44 with hybrid engines.
Note : the weight of a genoratot is large
You might look at Aquariousgenorator.com theu are an Isralie manufacturer and their unit is fractional compared to other genorators
I would check them our only aaa few moving ( linear) parts very simple.
Light enough for 1 dedicated to each
Drive and charge the lithium batteries.
Note I sorted my lithium drive system thru Copart purchasing a crashed Tesla
Norman, we do not have a generator on board and currently not really needing any? Thank you for watching our other videos too!
Hi Capt Frik, did you get a J1939 scan tool for your Yanmars? I work on-board diagnostics, and am on the SAE J1979 Committee, equivalent of ISO 15765-4.
I did diagnostics work on the General Motors Two-Mode Hybrids ten years ago, and also have a diagnostics patent on the Chevrolet Volt. Given current range issues, the Volt with a range extender in series is probably the best bet. But it would be a smaller diesel!
I also worked at Cummins and am familiar with the J1939 protocol, which is the diesel equivalent of J1979.
I found this for Yanmar engines, do you have a scanner like this? Is there a J1939 diagnostic connector on the engine?
www.yanmar.com/us/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Yanmar-CANplus-600-Operation-and-Troubleshooting.pdf
J1939 connector:
www.ocp.com/product/11760-03-226/?Google%20Shopping&Product%20feed%20for%20shopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgdP2s5Wl5AIV8__jBx11lQolEAQYASABEgJpH_D_BwE
Also just realized the standard Yanmar display with the buttons at the bottom can display a lot of information, starting page 28
www.yanmarmarine.com/theme/yanmarportal/uploadedFiles/Marine/productDownloads/Pleasure-operation-manual/022018_update_JH-CR_OM/0AJHC-EN0014_201711.pdf
Oh, wow, yes, the LCD can display a lot of information!
I wanted to bring that information into the Axiom Pro, but boy, the harnas was a bit pricey!
Sailing Sisu I have found that nearly every controller type has a system setting and/or diagnostics function but they are on hidden screens. I always read the manuals.
this guy takes more than 30 min to say something that could be said in 2 minutes and 23 seconds.
thanks for sticking around for 30 minutes!
I think your math might be off some where. I have seen electric boats of similar size that can run for 8+ hour on much less battery than you are talking about.
Would be great if you can share us the link! But the same math is shown on the Torqeedo site too and by that Quad44. The motors just need too much power and there is not batteries to store that power. Also keep in mind, I am not talking about a high performance, all carbon fiber with honeycomb epoxy hulls... cruising cats weighs a lot, 19,000 metric tons. That is a lot of dead weight to plow through the water. and water speed vs resistance vs power required is quadratic. if you double speed, then you need to quadruple your power. Batteries are just not there yet.
Another South African guy converted his Leopard to use Oceanvolt. He does an extremely good tour of it here: ruclips.net/video/o6kOvjS1ytE/видео.html . Best guided boat tour I have seen on youtube. Really interesting.
It looks like a voyage 580?
@@SailingSisu oh doh! of course! a voyage, not a leopard. I must have been half asleep when I wrote that.
But in any case: excellent conversion and excellent walk through. (don't forget to watch part 2)
check out the solar wave video on youtube
The Hybrids are koowl and the best there is at the moment...The test would be to be able to run those motors for few days without cooling time or recharge time. We have no been twice in 6m breaking waves and 40+ kts of wind where we had to motor for 2-3 days without a break. Off course we took the hard way (80% upwind) going to the MED, which took us close to the section in the Doldrums where there is no wind for 600-700nm...we could just turn on the diesels and they run 24hrs for 5 days, no problem. The Rigging Dr stayed in the Northern Hemisphere and in the steady Trade Winds. I am sure you watched Delos where they sailed Namibia, St Helena, Ascension all the way to Brazil not using their engine at all, not even for dropping or lifting anchor! Crossing the Atlantic is very easy using the Trades, but try to sail 80 different latitude degrees without engine....or to rely on electric motors for days without a cooling of break... BTW, one of the reasons why we choose a cat was the redundency of having two motors...if the genset breaks, then you are in trouble if you need engines....
Try not to mix kW (power) and kWh (energy) all the time please.
Power is the number of HP of your car engine
Energy is the number of litres of your fuel tank, basically
Sure, my apologies!
From 1890 to 1930 we used sailing boats without diesel or electric motors to carry world trade. Haven't we come a long way to try & do the same? the pollution from large container ships is catastrophic. If we dont do something then nature will do it for us.
Lol, I agreed. And sailors died of scurvy and was afraid of the dreaded dull drums. The thing is that that I worked the last 16 years in countries where one hour a week or in some countries one hour in six months electricity was a luxury. We are captives of our own doing :-) imagine what will happen if all electricity was killed. Yes, no more pumping gasses into the air, but billions of people will die. Nature will take over cities and humans will be on the extinction list for sure. But do we want that or kill earth? You know the answer.
Hi Sisu, found your channel.
like the spsreadcheet comparisons ;-)
i see in te comments you already found the rigging docter channel.
Did you already check theyr reviews on the atlantic crossing?
I found it a little bit sad you got convinced by the director of Leopard.
It's not becaus one production brand is dicuriging you to go electrict that it should be set in stone.
you should follow your gut ;-), it could be more cortly to convert later on.
specialy when other brands are delivering hybrid electric like Mavrick.
there is more rooting fore a full electric conversion then you took into consideration.
specialy when you are going full live aboard.
for ex: besides when you are otering on your engine, there is no benifit on having a fuel tank. the batery pack you could use for other domestic means.
while you are sailing, your diesel tank will not get full again while your battery bank will throu regen or other means.
just saing, Frik could be the elon of sailing catamarans ;-)
The Hybrids are koowl and the best there is at the moment...The test would be to be able to run those motors for few days without cooling time or recharge time. We have no been twice in 6m breaking waves and 40+ kts of wind where we had to motor for 2-3 days without a break. Off course we took the hard way (80% upwind) going to the MED, which took us close to the section in the Doldrums where there is no wind for 600-700nm...we could just turn on the diesels and they run 24hrs for 5 days, no problem. The Rigging Dr stayed in the Northern Hemisphere and in the steady Trade Winds. I am sure you watched Delos where they sailed Namibia, St Helena, Ascension all the way to Brazil not using their engine at all, not even for dropping or lifting anchor! Crossing the Atlantic is very easy using the Trades, but try to sail 80 different latitude degrees without engine....or to rely on electric motors for days without a cooling of break... BTW, one of the reasons why we choose a cat was the redundency of having two motors...if the genset breaks, then you are in trouble if you need engines....
Id go eletric and a generator for a emergency but you may never have to use the generator
Please watch our video on one year sailing :-) We have 2.2kW and we battle to get 13kW of batteries charged...I doubt your statement sincerely :-) and yes, I have watched the all the videos on the Silent Wind Yachts...and I would so desperately want to have a discussion with at least ONE owner who is doing blue water cruising... Currently, I want to make a statement, there is none. All the videos I see so far, is from Silent Yachts themselves...very nice and beautiful, but...please let me talk to a blue water cruiser.
Found some additional Information that may help you. Came across an old 2009 video from the American Sailing School (ruclips.net/p/PL19A47983ECB55420) about how they purchased a 38' Cat to retrofit to an electric propulsion system. Its something called Emotion Hybrid Systems (ruclips.net/p/PL19A47983ECB55420 & emotionhybrids.com/)
Thank you, Michael!
I have written as short a guide as I could think for your situation.
1- To begin, check the links below to give you a broader idea of what is going on in terms of boat global sales.
ruclips.net/video/EiiAayqRM8E/видео.html
trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=Catamaran%20sales
trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=Catamaran%20sales,Boat%20sales
trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=2010-07-08%202018-08-08&q=Catamaran%20sales
So if Robertson & Caine’s is too busy to help you as a customer and meet your needs, then there is a whole lot of nice boat builders with a slack in demand able to meet your needs. After all you are paying them, they are not paying you to buy the boat.
2- There are other manufacturers that provide an option of electric engine(s) vs diesel engines, and they install Oceanvolt’s electric engines at the factory without, also, doing steep price increases.
Labor costs for the Oceanvolt’s install should be a maximum of 40-hours (Oceanvolt’s estimate).
In addition, they should be able to subtract the diesel engine cost and ancillary equipment from the Oceanvolt option.
Do a Google search, and if you can’t find them shoot me a message.
I would start by reaching out to Oceanvolt in Finland for other boat manufacturing options, and I would discuss your situation with them.
3- There are at least two ways of sizing up an electric engine for a boat that I can think of right now. You can do this either from a conversion of horsepower to kilowatts, or you can do this by dividing the maximum displacement mass of your boat by horsepower.
Do not use the measly engine size offered for sale with a boat. Use the engine offered under options. There is a good reason manufacturers offer this option.
For the weight displacement route convert the displacement mass to kilograms. Convert the kilograms to metric tons. Divide this number by 2.5. Repeat and divide by 4. Divide both results by two since you are installing two engines in a cat.
These two results are the minimum and maximum sizes for an electric engine for your boat. The minimum should work for you unless your hull is made from steel. Yeah I know....
So a maximum displacement of 40,000 pounds will require, for example, a minimum electric engine of 22.7-kW and a maximum of 36.3-kW.
For the horsepower to kilowatt route you need to know that one horsepower equals 746 watts or 0.746 kilowatts. So a 37-horsepower diesel engine is comparable to a (37HP)(0.746 kW / 1HP) = 27.6-kW electric engine.
Both approaches point to an electric engine between 25-kW and 30-kW.
4- For the battery don’t buy what they offer. For the same money or less get the much larger batteries from a scrapped Chevy Bolt, Nissan Leaf, or Tesla car. These usually survive a salvage car in pretty good condition.
You will be amazed what $20,000 will actually buy in terms of a real battery bank (35-kWh to 90-kWh).
If you can’t find these batteries by yourself get in touch with Jack Rickard from EVTV. He will set you straight. All of these car batteries are already heavily weathered (they are enclosed inside containers which are inside enclosures, etc).
Caveat emptor - buyer beware: the chemistry of these different car batteries may not be the same kind offered in the Oceanvolt package. So I recommend you do some research; however, for sailing I would speculate that they should be ok.
Get a gas or diesel generator when motoring for long periods of time. This will extend your cruising range until the wind picks up again, and it will save you from continuously draining empty your battery bank.
5- Install the largest panels you can from Sunpower or Panasonic. With shading they work the best in terms of energy output; they, also, both have the least amount of degradation, and their power output (pmax or maxp) performs better than other brands in hot weather.
Install these panels either with optimizers or mini inverters. This will provide energy while anchored somewhere. Both of these technologies (optimizers or mini inverters) will reduce the loss from shading. I know no one else in boats does it, but this is what you need.
Make sure the battery chargers, optimizers, or I nverters have MPPT. This will boost the harvested solar energy by 30% with any solar panel brand.
Look in the Internet for examples of how to install a strong structural frame to support the panels over the dinghy, on the sides of a boat, or under the boom. If installed correctly strong wind gusts should not affect anything, and in addition, these structures can be placed to provide you with protection from the rain and to provide shade below them from the sun.
Some installations are made to quickly (relatively speaking) disassemble the panels during a very strong and windy weather storm. Check out the different systems available for connecting solar panels to a rigid mounting system. Some of these will allow this.
6- Before buying the solar panels calculate your energy needs per day. Think how you can reduce your daily energy consumption by either installing more efficient fridges, installing lots of LED lighting, etc.
This calculation and process will prevent you from buying more solar panels than you actually need, and it will save you money at the time of sizing the house battery bank, the battery chargers, the inverters, and the cables by permitting the installation of a smaller solar system. In addition, it will save space.
7- Make sure the boat manufacturer prepares the boat with cables and cabinets for the installation of the batteries, or at least pre-drills and separates an area to install the batteries with racks to prevent them from moving while at sea, and perhaps they might, also, be willing to design and install the structure to support your solar panels.
You will need them to prepare an area where all the cables can be gathered together for the battery chargers, inverters, meters, quick electrical disconnects, switch boxes, and other related equipment.
If possible make sure the electrical equipment is factory cabled and able to accept other future energy sources such as wind turbines or hydro generators. You never know when you might need them, or decide to add them.
All of the electrical cables should be sized properly to handle both the different energy sources of this install, possible future energy source installations, and the electrical demand side of things.
The preparation of cabling, cabinets, and structures will save you a whole lot of headaches. Oceanvolt should be able to help you to plan this, and a local, friendly, knowledgeable distributor should help you to plan the rest. So when you have your big meet with a boat builder you have a planned, organized presentation for your electrical and energy requirements.
On the financial side of things, you will save money four ways with the above systems:
a - decrease your engine fuel consumption expense.
b - decrease your engine maintenance expense.
c - decrease your expense for slips since you will be more autonomous.
d - decrease your electric house fuel consumption expense.
On the personal side your cruising trips should be quieter and with less fumes.
On the global side you are helping everyone and everything.
I hope this helps in your boat buying, making decision.
Happy and safe journey.
wow, thank you, Eric! very good advise and I will take it into consideration for sure! I am looking at the Tesla Walls until someone told me they will not survive marine environment...? Also, I have currently 2.2kW of solar (sunpower), two Silent Wind generators, and 1.2kW of Lithium. This already added a sh!t load of weight to my catamaran as well, I run out of space to place them safely without compromising on the hull design or float dynamics needed for a cat to be safe. It is after all, only 45ft not like the 62ft Gunboat from the links I have received so many times. My current weight is 19 metric tons (sorry, I have no intentions to start learning non-metric :-) ) so, for now, I want to check out these things myself in real life. see how it performs and what I run out of first. If all this weight is just for my personal [comfortable] needs...
Sailing Sisu you are most welcomed.
Many of the viewers mentioned Torqueedo, and I believe they have a similar system to Oceanvolt.
If you decide to change I think Privilège Marine, Aventura, and a few others are offering cats from the factory with electric motors, but I believe they all offer an electric generator which I believe you hate, but on an emergency it could save a life; so you have to weigh one against the other.
Your solar panels, wind turbines, and lithium batteries should serve you well in the meantime.
Best of luck.
Solar/electric is great - when you have sun.....
Exactly, but there are alternatives to sun, which is present when sun disappears :-)
Frik, Great work so far! I plan to also buy a Leopard 45 (someday) and install many of the same systems you have recommended. So regarding the electronics/battery systems, have you considered a combo 12V/24V system? I've read some good things about the efficiencies of using 24V for some items (winches, AirCon, water-maker, motors, etc). One site I've been reviewing is from Polar Power:
polarpower.com/applications/marine/
PS: Eventually I would be very interested in your final Victron equipment list, and schematic, showing any/all components such as BMS, BMV, Cyrix-Li-Charge/Load relays, Battery Protect modules, ACvsDC genset (and why), etc.
Thank you, Todd! Yes, but Robertson & Caine is using 12V for all their equipment so, it did not make much sense at the time. Yes, for sure, higher voltage, thinner much thinner cables. That is for sure a better way to transfer DC. In retrospect, Marcel and I ripped almost all the R&C equipment out but I forgot about that it could be a transition point towards 24 or 48V :-) Petro still needs to make one more episode on Vodka machines and then I will do a video on our final costs. We still do not have all the costs, but it will give you guys a good overview of what the costs are. Don't forget to mention Sisu when you talk to theCape Town office, they may throw in a nice discount :-)
Hybrid diesel, gen set, electric ia the aolution
I am still not convinced. In our recent video, we did motor 2 days out of a 6-day passage. We could alternate between the two diesels every 3 hours and let the other one rest. While if you had a hybrid, you will have one battery bank, one genset. If you have two 13kW motors, it means you would have depleted the propulsion bank within 4 hours and from then on it would have been the genset. You need at least 13kw genset for continuous propulsion, but you cannot run a genset at max capacity for that long, so, you need to upgrade your genset....which means more weight more fuel more noise more polution...well, kind of defeats the purpose in general of trying to reduce weight, footprint, diesel consumption, and noise ;-)
The solar Li Ion.Battery diesel generator combination looks to be the best solution if you can bear the eye watering costs . There is no way in the long run you can outperform the Diesel engine solutions in terms of fuel costs . However the ability to only run a diesel generator a few hours a week versus noisy running Diesel engines to make electric power is very interesting especially for charter boats . There is one example of a large cat used for charter in USA that has the solar Li Ion.Battery diesel generator combination for the house system and runs three large A/C . A Lithium Powered Cat, Our latest upgrade Ep.20 (The Space Between ). ruclips.net/video/9GoSDOM-jVI/видео.html. It reduces they estimate the generator running time dramatically based on the previous version of smaller li ION battery solution they had . A cat can do something that is harder for mono hulls to do and that is have a Diesel engine in one hull and a electric power solutions in the other hull and have a generator to run electric engine when batteries have run out so as to be hybrid electric power . A example would be 38 kilowatt Diesel engine for one hull with a suitable 50 Kilowatt diesel generator to drive the electric power source probably 15 KW motor to switch on when battery power was down . Then for battery power cut that down in range to something like 5 miles range The electric power engines could easily be twin folding on twin 7.5 KW motors props to give best control in harbours . The Diesel engine could also have two folding props also driven of Hydraulics . There will be losses from two props versus one bigger prop and losses in the hydraulic power and electric resistance with longer cables .However to reduce the losses lower and to keep costs probably better best to have single props for each type of power source and opt to reduce the speed under electric power and diesel electric power down to something like less than three knots and bring Diesel generator down to smaller less than 20KW size . The problems of electric power in this time are there is no recharge electric Grid power points to connect into Like a Tesla car can . Generating power from Diesel generators is very costly often 5 to 10 times the cost per kilowatt than grid power . Example is Grid power in the USA costs about $0.20 cents per Kilowatt where small diesel generators tend to come in at $1 to $2 per KW . Therefore electric generation by solar panels is very interesting if the costs can be done at less than $1 a single WATT . In large solar Farms they get these numbers but on small boats that nearly impossible to get . The real maths of the problem is that Diesel fuel is about 12.66KW or 12,666 watts per kilo of fuel Li Ion in this time is approx 130 watts or less than 2 % of power density . However the Diesel engines are wasteful in energy starting at approximately 65% losses in the engine with losses in the gearbox and shafts and prop losses they often return less than 10% the power that is eventualy harnessed at the props . Example a 35 KW motor GROSS power might finally give NET power 3 kilowatts of power to the boat after all losses . A electric drive will often have more low losses than a Diesel fuel engine and return approx 40% NET power from Gross input power . Example 8 Kilowatt electric power solution might return 3 kilowatt NET power to the boat system after all losses . That will be based on losses in battery from heat losses in speed controllers from heat and ramping and mechanical loses The normal prop losses are often about 30 % much the same as Diesel engine prop losses . The big trick with electric power is to look the slow speeds 2 to 3 knots where power demands are low about 1/4 the power demands of 5 knots . If 5 knots needs 20 kilowatt of electric power to go that speed then at 2 knots then it might be more like 5 Kw to go at 2 knots speed . Yes that 2 knots speed is slow but crossing oceans in calm regions which often exist in mid oceans it can cut down the amount of Diesel fuel needed to get across the ocean if there is slow power demand electric solutions to push the boat in calms . Cutting down fuel demands lightens the boats and reduces fuel fire risks . It might be possible to put enough solar panels on the larger cats that they can in daylight hours return average speeds of 2 knots but its gonna be lot of panels and a lot of costs. Solar power only Speeds of 5 knots don't look doable on boat smaller than 100 feet Solar power slow speed with electric engine solutions for ocean crossing boats can help if speed is not a issue such as Charter boats who require to get to new charter boat locations on schedules at different times in the year .
Very interesting comment and I am experiencing here at 38 degrees north and winter times, that we just do not have enough solar panels to even keep up with our normal use. Well, we do use the 1.5kW kettle (3% of battery power for 2 cups of water) and we have a lot of cameras, laptops, and phones, which all need charging. Then there is the electrical system itself, which uses power to monitor, protect, and charge the batteries....the only other place to increase solar panels, is at the back over Tippex... But to charge enough for 13kW motors?
I think moonwave do electric motors for big sailing cats.
Thank you for watching! Yes they do and I saw it (actually forgot about them) however, I did not know they launched their performance cat! Thank you for pointing it out. Looks like a fab cat!
Would be great to see how that 18kW motors perform and what is the range.
get on with it !
We are trying!
I would LOVE to see electric motors replace the old diesels, so much cleaner and quieter...just need to improve the batteries to the point that the range is acceptable, especially for long voyages/passages like a 3 week Atlantic or Pacific crossing, or the pole to pole traveling you all are aiming to do.
Maybe you two can be the first to implement such a solution and be the leaders in showing that it CAN be done.
Elon is forging ahead but lately with all the cuts he is making, and buy stock, I think they are hitting a financial tough area and are trying to stay "afloat"...
I know a company in Thailand, Heliotrope Yachts (yacht-heliotrope.com/), is seriously looking at this possibility, they are the leaders in going completely SOLAR , best place to get your yacht fitted for running off Solar and no GenSet.
I found this video made by Sailing Doodles that interviews the owner of the company, its a very good discussion and he talks about Elon Musk and Tesla as well.
SOLAR ASSISTED YACHTS - An Interview With Heliotrope Yachts
ruclips.net/video/Obi1sBx0Ca0/видео.html
Thank you, Michael, yes, I have that video listed, actually both sites. I am a serious Elon fan :-) but let me first experience myself what is what. I do not even know how to sail, so, I will give myself a chance to get some experience while checking out what can be done with electric motors and what not :-)
A Tesla Power Wall is very dangerous for on a boat. They're not designed for marine applications and use Li Ion cells that when the BMS fails (and it will some day) will do a catastrophic thermal runaway at temperatures you can't handle. Almost all manufacturers of marine electrical products that have Li batteries for sale use for a very good reason LiFePo4 prismatic cells. Li Ion cells are awesome but not on a boat. The weakest link in y system is always the BMS. When that goes you loose everything, maybe even your life. If you use LiFePo4 cells and something happens you only loose that one cell and your boat is still afloat.
Great catch! I heard Elon one day talking about Lithium Magnesium Phosphate and I thought Tesla would use that for all their batteries...mmm. And you are very correct Li-Ion does not take the same amount of charge neither can it discharge in high volumes. Not good.