I am an old machinist who thought CNC skill rested in programming, and purchasing specific attachments for each work order, instead of tool and die cutting, measuring and block gauges. For the productive CNC folks I know, thread cutting is established through pre-fab inserts and stepper servo calibration. Sir, you are a very impressive machinist and I am inspired to purchase a CNC for my shop. Your precision setup, methodology and use of gauges is spectacular. Thank You for sharing your layout and setup for tapered threads...wow.
As a former user of API threads 30 years ago in my well driller adventure days! I am familiar with their complexity, However I have never had the occasion to machine them and have seen very little about it over the years. This series is extremely interesting for me. Thanks Peter.
A long time ago I was tasked with recovering the threads of a string of pipes that fell 4000 feet into an exploration hole. Over 80 lengths of pipe, maybe 3 1/4'" or so. The pipes had corkscrewed. The male and female ends needed to to cut off and the pipes were straightened in wooden halves in the flange press. These had a shallow square thread and had a taper as well along with an undercut at the shoulder. The female threads matched of course. I spent weeks doing these threads on an old flat bed lathe, using high speed tooling hand ground. I think they were 3tpi about .062 deep. I was a second year apprentice and this lathe had no taper turning attachment. You just backed the depth of cut off as you went! I did all these pipes and they were finished awaiting dispatch. The truck turned up and the truck driver looped the chains under the stack and back to the ring. The crane driver sitting high was not paying attention and lifted them up and headed down to the loading bay. Well, the chains slipped along the pipe and they fell out of the sling, all over the steel plate racks and then onto the concrete floor. I had to cut off the damaged ends and redo my work. I guess I was 18 at the time and was really pissed off having to repeat all this careful work. I'm 62 now but it is one of those not so fond memories! Good series of videos.
as far as I understand it, blunt start is basically just milling off the half threads at the end of the part so there's no sharp partial threads towards the end. Also makes it easy to thread on since the first turn engages on a full thread rather than those half threads.
@@bookyle21 thank you. but I was wondering about any specific tolerances with blunt starts I understand what they do but how much is to much? I'm a mill machinist and just recently started running a turn mill DMG MORI
I run the blunt starts with a groove tool as I’m on a turret lathe. G76 cycle but alter the start position to match the pitch of the thread and creep up on depth until I reach the root of the thread.great video
I will. In fact I was going to put that in this video. But right when I was working on this video they shut the power off in the shop to connect some new equipment. And I kind of had to finish the edit on battery power and forgot to put it in this video.
@@EdgePrecision Peter that would be great. I've been tinkering with higbees and blunt starts on API connections for the last few years and just can not seem to turn a good one. The best I can get is removal of the sharp top of the first imperfect thread. Milling it is a much better alternative and would like to see how you go about in your CAM software.
@@EdgePrecision I hate it when that happens! (Of course, here, when they turn off power, it's because the wind is strong and their equipment is so old it would cause a fire otherwise.)
I hope you see this comment sir, I am running a part with API threads now... I already put the threads on one side and have machined OP1, which is half of the part. My part is 27" long and 4.530 in diameter with a .310" wall thickness and I am wondering if I machine my soft jaws to match the taper of the OD of the API threads would that be alright? Or would it damage the threads? My steel soft jaws are 5" Tall and I need to have a wall in the back so that I have a reference position to butt up the part to so that I may finish the parts over all length to final part dimension. The length of the API Threads is 3.637 and the length of the jaws after the .25/.375 wall that I want to leave would only leave me with about an inch to hold on to if I dont machine the taper... Thanks and I gotta say you do make this work look really easy... you do great work sir! Thank you for your videos!
Why don't you bore the jaws to grip the OD and use the shoulder of the API thread as the stop for the overall length? Is the hole in your chuck not large enough to accept the tapered thread? I don't think I would chuck on the thread itself.
@@EdgePrecision Thank you for your suggestion sir, I wanted to try to use the shoulder of my previous OP but I was a bit nervous about surface quality on the ID bore, but I think I will give this a try. I have one part I already screwed up so i will use it as my set up piece for this process... 😂
I guess just had the speed and depth of cut correct for it. There are inserts with chip control. But if I remember correct this insert didn't have any. I also feed my thread cutting straight in on the CNC lathe. Unless it's a really coarse/large thread.
On a Fanuc you can use a common G32 cycle but offset the start in Z by a multiple of the thread pitch; it will make a tapered start that matches the lift-out angle set in the parameters. You just use a grooving tool. It isn't truly a Higbee, but it works just as well to prevent cross-threading.
When it is done with a treading cycle. You would use a grooving tool at least as wide as the base of the thread or wider. Than you would use a very short threading cycle just enough to where the tool pulls out to create the blunt start or higbee. Depending on the machine and its settings. If it is rapiding to retract the tool at the end. You can control the llength of the blunt/higbee by the spindle speed. So slower speed will make a steeper slope or it shorter. The harder on is to do it on the end of a thread. Starting in a thread relief with a left hand tool (For a right hand thread) in reverse.
@@EdgePrecision I hope I never have to do it on the back end of a thread! I already get nervous watching a quarter inch pitch threading operation with that turret screaming towards the chuck! LOL
I used to use cnmg inserts for roughing but then switched to wnmg inserts because you got 6 edges against 4.. Why do you use cnmg? Do you think it has some benfits or thats just what you got? Thanks for the videos Peter :)
Get the tool holders so you can use the "dull" sides on the CNMG insert for roughing that way you get 8 cutting edges on a CNMG insert. Also CNMG inserts sits better in the tool holder therefore making it a better choice for roughing despite it costing more per cutting edge.
A CNMG insert is more secure in its pocket than a WNMG insert. That is why I prefer them for roughing. The WNMG insert also depends more on the locking pin for its accuracy in location witch is somewhat bothersome to me. It will have problems with location accuracy especially with a lot of pressure from the roughing because of the angles in its pocket are very slight or open.
Oh ok, I see now that CNMG is better in bigger machines in heavy roughing.. I run a smaller lathe so WNMG is plenty secure for that and stays in place nicely. Thanks for the answers. :)
How are you determining the start point for your blunt start? i always did the grooving tool method and it was trial and a lot of error, i definitely wouldn't want to do it on something like this.
It is quite easy with a milling tool. First you program a Helix that is the same pitch as the thread. One turn is all that is necessary. With a lead out the way you want the blunt/ or higbee to be shaped. you don't need anything if you want it to be the radius of the endmill. On the Mazak I start the helix at the top of the part and Y zero at the root diameter of the thread and Z zero. Now the important part put this profile on its own separate fixture offset. Say G55 if you are using G54 (set G55 initially the same in all axis as G54 especially the C axis) for everything else. Now after you have cut your thread. The first time you run your blunt start tool. Let the run in in single block to the start of the helix. Now stop the machine. Take a look at where the tool is in relation to your threads start. Estimate the rotation necessary to get it lined up or jog the machine in C taking note of how much you jogged the C axis to get it there. Now adjust the C axis zero in your fixture offset (G55) by that value in the proper direction. Now reset and rerun the tool the same way to the start of the helix. If all looks good let it run. You can use the Z offset or the tool length offset to fine tune it. For a Acme thread this isn't a problem because of the flat root but for a V thread it sometimes takes a little adjustment to get it spot on. Now this will stay in alignment with the threads lead for the subsequent runs.
I have always wondered why then threads are tapered like that. I have always assumed it is for easy removal. I watched a thread gauge being turned on and off of the part but with the threads being tapered it doesn't seem like you can make too many turns before it's locked on. Thanks again for the great video
Peter you mentioned insert wear on the threading tool in the last video too I think. How do you determine that? Are you measuring it with your comparator or tool setter?
In reference to this video or more precisely the API thread and the tip of the insert. If it wears to much the thread depth can go out of tolerance but the gauge standoff could be OK. So I check the depth of the thread with the Allen Gauge to make sure it stays in tolerance.
Long ago was analog punch tape and the same type well drill pipe thread . It was a crazY place to work doing all kinds of work for mines and well drill services .
Are you asking how I set the offsets for the work and tools? If so I have shown parts of this in previous videos. But I will keep that in mind for a future video. Thanks.
Just 1 question: Say you are +.01 on the pitch diameter, what is the mathematical relationship to the cutter wear comp. that you would enter to get the correct depth?
So its a direct relationship? pitch diameter measurement of +.01 from target = +/- .01 cutter wear comp. adjustment. Figured that wire diameter and thread angle would make it non linear. Thanks for the great video's.
No the thread wires go straight in with the tool. It doesn't matter what the angle of the thread flanks are. If you think about it the location of the wires doesn't change in relation to the angles. they just go in deeper when you cut off material. Otherwise this measuring method wouldn't work. Now if the insert wears and its angles change between measurements. Than there would be a problem.
Does indicating in only one point of the part guarantees the perfect concentricity of the back diameter with the front diameter . i mean doesn't it need to be indicated from two points in a specific length ? isn't there any runout problem ?
Normally you would be correct. But in this case the shoulder on the first side is bearing on the bottom of the counter bore in the chucks jaws. So that should make the part run true in that plane. I hope that makes sense. Thanks.
The shoulder he taps it against is the second point. Only thing to worry about is "bounce" off the jaws when seating with the deadblow(sometimes firm pressure and a bit of rotational wiggle while slowing tightening is better than a deadblow). A good check is to try a .0015" feeler gauge back there to be sure it's seated.
You can usually see light behind/between if the part isn't fully seated in the jaws by rotating the chuck. You do have to be careful about the bounce or recoil of the part when you strike it with the hammer. Sometimes a lighter blow will work better than a hard one.
@@EdgePrecision Yup! If you're super stressed you can take a skim cut (that hits the full face) and mic out the shoulder length between the jaws. As long as there's room, can use a hook vernier as well.
For the type of work I do a manual 4-jaw is more useful (Not this job). It is quite common to use a manual chuck on a CNC machine in the Oilfield type of machine work. Most of my jobs I do get chucked and stay there for a long period of time. It can be days or even weeks in some cases. So the versatility of the manual chuck with more travel in the jaws and being able to run off center (If necessary) is more desirable than the time lost in chucking a part.
On this machine that’s controlled in the Mazatrol tool setup/ offset data. There is a entry for that tool/ offset the orientation of the tool clamped angle.
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I am an old machinist who thought CNC skill rested in programming, and purchasing specific attachments for each work order, instead of tool and die cutting, measuring and block gauges. For the productive CNC folks I know, thread cutting is established through pre-fab inserts and stepper servo calibration. Sir, you are a very impressive machinist and I am inspired to purchase a CNC for my shop. Your precision setup, methodology and use of gauges is spectacular. Thank You for sharing your layout and setup for tapered threads...wow.
As a former user of API threads 30 years ago in my well driller adventure days! I am familiar with their complexity, However I have never had the occasion to machine them and have seen very little about it over the years. This series is extremely interesting for me. Thanks Peter.
A long time ago I was tasked with recovering the threads of a string of pipes that fell 4000 feet into an exploration hole. Over 80 lengths of pipe, maybe 3 1/4'" or so. The pipes had corkscrewed. The male and female ends needed to to cut off and the pipes were straightened in wooden halves in the flange press. These had a shallow square thread and had a taper as well along with an undercut at the shoulder. The female threads matched of course. I spent weeks doing these threads on an old flat bed lathe, using high speed tooling hand ground. I think they were 3tpi about .062 deep. I was a second year apprentice and this lathe had no taper turning attachment. You just backed the depth of cut off as you went! I did all these pipes and they were finished awaiting dispatch. The truck turned up and the truck driver looped the chains under the stack and back to the ring. The crane driver sitting high was not paying attention and lifted them up and headed down to the loading bay. Well, the chains slipped along the pipe and they fell out of the sling, all over the steel plate racks and then onto the concrete floor. I had to cut off the damaged ends and redo my work. I guess I was 18 at the time and was really pissed off having to repeat all this careful work. I'm 62 now but it is one of those not so fond memories! Good series of videos.
@Don Mathias _Wow!!_ 😮
Great video series Peter. Fascinating to watch your skill and listen to your vast knowledge.
Interesting Peter. Thanks for showing the 3 steps. Look forward to the next videos.
Thank you for these videos, I really enjoy watching experts perform their craft.
I really enjoy your videos thanks for sharing.
Can you go more in to detail about the blunt start?
Great videos right!
as far as I understand it, blunt start is basically just milling off the half threads at the end of the part so there's no sharp partial threads towards the end. Also makes it easy to thread on since the first turn engages on a full thread rather than those half threads.
@@bookyle21 thank you. but I was wondering about any specific tolerances with blunt starts I understand what they do but how much is to much?
I'm a mill machinist and just recently started running a turn mill DMG MORI
Maybe go over the CAM for the blunt start?
Agreed on the CAM. Specifically how do you sync the milling to the thread start. Thanks again Peter!
Thank you very much sir for such detailed stuff
I run the blunt starts with a groove tool as I’m on a turret lathe. G76 cycle but alter the start position to match the pitch of the thread and creep up on depth until I reach the root of the thread.great video
Thanks Peter. Awesome work as always.
Nice video Peter, enjoyed!
Great series. Thanks
Peter could you do a video on how you program in Esprit a blunt start thread on the Mazak with an end mill and a Turing tool.
I will. In fact I was going to put that in this video. But right when I was working on this video they shut the power off in the shop to connect some new equipment. And I kind of had to finish the edit on battery power and forgot to put it in this video.
@@EdgePrecision Peter that would be great. I've been tinkering with higbees and blunt starts on API connections for the last few years and just can not seem to turn a good one. The best I can get is removal of the sharp top of the first imperfect thread. Milling it is a much better alternative and would like to see how you go about in your CAM software.
@@EdgePrecision I hate it when that happens!
(Of course, here, when they turn off power, it's because the wind is strong and their equipment is so old it would cause a fire otherwise.)
Thank you for showing all the steps to turning this part.
I hope you see this comment sir, I am running a part with API threads now... I already put the threads on one side and have machined OP1, which is half of the part. My part is 27" long and 4.530 in diameter with a .310" wall thickness and I am wondering if I machine my soft jaws to match the taper of the OD of the API threads would that be alright? Or would it damage the threads? My steel soft jaws are 5" Tall and I need to have a wall in the back so that I have a reference position to butt up the part to so that I may finish the parts over all length to final part dimension. The length of the API Threads is 3.637 and the length of the jaws after the .25/.375 wall that I want to leave would only leave me with about an inch to hold on to if I dont machine the taper... Thanks and I gotta say you do make this work look really easy... you do great work sir! Thank you for your videos!
Why don't you bore the jaws to grip the OD and use the shoulder of the API thread as the stop for the overall length? Is the hole in your chuck not large enough to accept the tapered thread? I don't think I would chuck on the thread itself.
@@EdgePrecision Thank you for your suggestion sir, I wanted to try to use the shoulder of my previous OP but I was a bit nervous about surface quality on the ID bore, but I think I will give this a try. I have one part I already screwed up so i will use it as my set up piece for this process... 😂
@@beatboxx713 use a piece of ground shim
Good ol' drill bit shanks. How did you get a chip to break on the API thread? That was always the thorn in my side.
I guess just had the speed and depth of cut correct for it. There are inserts with chip control. But if I remember correct this insert didn't have any. I also feed my thread cutting straight in on the CNC lathe. Unless it's a really coarse/large thread.
I hope your wonderful youtubes have gotten more business for you.
Why no thread gauge for the second thread like you used for the first?
Nobody had one.
Excellent and thank you so very much.
Very clean
Pete, could have a problem dialing the hole? Amazing you showed the higbee! It would be great to see one made by turning
On a Fanuc you can use a common G32 cycle but offset the start in Z by a multiple of the thread pitch; it will make a tapered start that matches the lift-out angle set in the parameters. You just use a grooving tool. It isn't truly a Higbee, but it works just as well to prevent cross-threading.
When it is done with a treading cycle. You would use a grooving tool at least as wide as the base of the thread or wider. Than you would use a very short threading cycle just enough to where the tool pulls out to create the blunt start or higbee. Depending on the machine and its settings. If it is rapiding to retract the tool at the end. You can control the llength of the blunt/higbee by the spindle speed. So slower speed will make a steeper slope or it shorter. The harder on is to do it on the end of a thread. Starting in a thread relief with a left hand tool (For a right hand thread) in reverse.
@@EdgePrecision I made it once for NPT threads but it looked awkward, I made a 1/2npt and used a 1/8 width grooving tool
@@EdgePrecision I hope I never have to do it on the back end of a thread! I already get nervous watching a quarter inch pitch threading operation with that turret screaming towards the chuck! LOL
I used to use cnmg inserts for roughing but then switched to wnmg inserts because you got 6 edges against 4.. Why do you use cnmg? Do you think it has some benfits or thats just what you got? Thanks for the videos Peter :)
Get the tool holders so you can use the "dull" sides on the CNMG insert for roughing that way you get 8 cutting edges on a CNMG insert.
Also CNMG inserts sits better in the tool holder therefore making it a better choice for roughing despite it costing more per cutting edge.
A CNMG insert is more secure in its pocket than a WNMG insert. That is why I prefer them for roughing. The WNMG insert also depends more on the locking pin for its accuracy in location witch is somewhat bothersome to me. It will have problems with location accuracy especially with a lot of pressure from the roughing because of the angles in its pocket are very slight or open.
Oh ok, I see now that CNMG is better in bigger machines in heavy roughing.. I run a smaller lathe so WNMG is plenty secure for that and stays in place nicely. Thanks for the answers. :)
How are you determining the start point for your blunt start? i always did the grooving tool method and it was trial and a lot of error, i definitely wouldn't want to do it on something like this.
It is quite easy with a milling tool. First you program a Helix that is the same pitch as the thread. One turn is all that is necessary. With a lead out the way you want the blunt/ or higbee to be shaped. you don't need anything if you want it to be the radius of the endmill. On the Mazak I start the helix at the top of the part and Y zero at the root diameter of the thread and Z zero. Now the important part put this profile on its own separate fixture offset. Say G55 if you are using G54 (set G55 initially the same in all axis as G54 especially the C axis) for everything else. Now after you have cut your thread. The first time you run your blunt start tool. Let the run in in single block to the start of the helix. Now stop the machine. Take a look at where the tool is in relation to your threads start. Estimate the rotation necessary to get it lined up or jog the machine in C taking note of how much you jogged the C axis to get it there. Now adjust the C axis zero in your fixture offset (G55) by that value in the proper direction. Now reset and rerun the tool the same way to the start of the helix. If all looks good let it run. You can use the Z offset or the tool length offset to fine tune it. For a Acme thread this isn't a problem because of the flat root but for a V thread it sometimes takes a little adjustment to get it spot on. Now this will stay in alignment with the threads lead for the subsequent runs.
Thanks for the video.
Hey Peter great video series, did you make that long depth bar for your calipers?
No it is a purchased item.
I have always wondered why then threads are tapered like that. I have always assumed it is for easy removal. I watched a thread gauge being turned on and off of the part but with the threads being tapered it doesn't seem like you can make too many turns before it's locked on. Thanks again for the great video
Good looking parts, will they be hardened ? h1000 or h900
There already at condition H1150.
thanks for your time. hope to see you soon.
Thanx Peter!
Peter you mentioned insert wear on the threading tool in the last video too I think. How do you determine that? Are you measuring it with your comparator or tool setter?
In reference to this video or more precisely the API thread and the tip of the insert. If it wears to much the thread depth can go out of tolerance but the gauge standoff could be OK. So I check the depth of the thread with the Allen Gauge to make sure it stays in tolerance.
Long ago was analog punch tape and the same type well drill pipe thread . It was a crazY place to work doing all kinds of work for mines and well drill services .
Hi bro, can you make a step-by-step video of how to take the workoffset and the tooloffset in this machine?
Are you asking how I set the offsets for the work and tools? If so I have shown parts of this in previous videos. But I will keep that in mind for a future video. Thanks.
Just 1 question: Say you are +.01 on the pitch diameter, what is the mathematical relationship to the cutter wear comp. that you would enter to get the correct depth?
The wear comp on this machine works in diameter. If you were +.010 Than you would enter -.010 in the wear offset.
So its a direct relationship? pitch diameter measurement of +.01 from target = +/- .01 cutter wear comp. adjustment. Figured that wire diameter and thread angle would make it non linear.
Thanks for the great video's.
No the thread wires go straight in with the tool. It doesn't matter what the angle of the thread flanks are. If you think about it the location of the wires doesn't change in relation to the angles. they just go in deeper when you cut off material. Otherwise this measuring method wouldn't work. Now if the insert wears and its angles change between measurements. Than there would be a problem.
Thanks
Does indicating in only one point of the part guarantees the perfect concentricity of the back diameter with the front diameter . i mean doesn't it need to be indicated from two points in a specific length ? isn't there any runout problem ?
Normally you would be correct. But in this case the shoulder on the first side is bearing on the bottom of the counter bore in the chucks jaws. So that should make the part run true in that plane. I hope that makes sense. Thanks.
The shoulder he taps it against is the second point. Only thing to worry about is "bounce" off the jaws when seating with the deadblow(sometimes firm pressure and a bit of rotational wiggle while slowing tightening is better than a deadblow). A good check is to try a .0015" feeler gauge back there to be sure it's seated.
You can usually see light behind/between if the part isn't fully seated in the jaws by rotating the chuck. You do have to be careful about the bounce or recoil of the part when you strike it with the hammer. Sometimes a lighter blow will work better than a hard one.
@@EdgePrecision Yup! If you're super stressed you can take a skim cut (that hits the full face) and mic out the shoulder length between the jaws. As long as there's room, can use a hook vernier as well.
Please tell me that was not a Fowler mic .
Ejoyed Peter!
ATB, Robin
Hi, I am from Algeria. I want to learn the digital lathe machine. Is there someone who has this machine and I am communicating with him?
Ho lee shit lol , I was not expecting that big of an lathe lmao
Name of this machine?
This is a Mazak e650H.
Why not power chuck? I thought Cnc use power chuck
For the type of work I do a manual 4-jaw is more useful (Not this job). It is quite common to use a manual chuck on a CNC machine in the Oilfield type of machine work. Most of my jobs I do get chucked and stay there for a long period of time. It can be days or even weeks in some cases. So the versatility of the manual chuck with more travel in the jaws and being able to run off center (If necessary) is more desirable than the time lost in chucking a part.
thank you
Api thread standard the for Oil sector manufacturing?
Yes it stands for American Petroleum Institute.
Is that 17-4 SS
Yes.
looks like threads for oil rigs
Quisiera aprender. A qui No tenemos esas máquinas
¿De qué parte del mundo eres? ¿No hay escuelas que enseñen esto? O tal vez otra tienda a la que puedas ir.
First time he puts the piece in the chuck and it’s 5 thou off. Mine are 5 thou off when I take it out HA HA LMAO
Era para mostra usinando a peça inteira
sim, muito obrigada.
Dr Stanton paging Dr Peter Stanton
essas broca de fura poco num paga nem o operador
tinha era vergonha.melhor faze didim gurme
Und wozu brauchst du Vierbackenfutter , du Dusel ........ ???
😕😕😕
Du folgst offensichtlich nicht meinem Kanal. Ich habe diese Frage oft beantwortet. Ihre Frage hat also keinen Wert und hat keine Konsequenz.
cnc com placa manual credo
can you show how to orient OD turning tools like that please?3:00
On this machine that’s controlled in the Mazatrol tool setup/ offset data. There is a entry for that tool/ offset the orientation of the tool clamped angle.