Doctor Who needs more episodes
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It seems that with each Modern Era Doctor their Seasons get shorter & have longer gaps in between them.
"We need more episodes, so we can have more bog standard episodes. That might sound really weird."
Yes, it totally does. But carry on, I'm listening.
When doctor who had 13 episodes, I wanted more of it. But it still felt complete and satisfying. When it’s smaller than that, it isn’t enough
Callback to Classic Who episodes being 25-30 episodes. Yeah, they were 30 min lengths instead of the 45-1 hour lengths, it still felt like there were a good amount of episodes per season.
@@MrZachtheKingsfan it did take 3-6 of those episodes to tell stories though, they were all multi-parters in classic Who.
Doctor Who has always needed long seasons with a high volume of stories to really give it that adventure feeling, and the stories have suffered this season from us feeling like we just got here, and now we're already at the penultimate story of the season (assuming Rogue leads into the 2 part finale in anyway) and the series hasn't even been releasing for a month
Agree with all you brought up! The thing I’m really missing with the shorter runtime especially is the lack of low stakes chatting in the tardis. Getting to know the character outside of the context of the episodes and also debriefing the events of each episode. The only way I could be satisfied with all of this is if we find out the season is a TV show or that we’re seeing Ruby and The Doctor in separate timelines every week. Would explain a ton of things. ❤
FYI to the 'RTD's writing everything because he's selfish' complaint I see about - Sophie Petzal (writer of Medici, Last Kingdom among other UK shows) explained that, because of the lack of time and money for proper UK writer's rooms (unlike in the US), often showrunners here find it more practical and less stressful to just write more eps on their own than have to manage another writer (whom they have to hire, guide, read the script multiple times, give notes to, even rewrite). Plus, this was likely done to ensure S2 could get into production quicker, as we know new writers are on that.
Where can I see the writers list for season 2?
@@guy3854 The writers list hasn't been released yet, but RTD has said that season 2 has 4 new writers.
My only issue with this is that some of my favorite episodes of DW are written by guest writers in episodes that were probably supposed to be fillers. Next week's show is written by a writer from Loki and I absolutely love that show and I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with who.
@@brewster_4 Ah okay, thats good news
It's a stupid criticism to make either way ("RTD is selfish for writing that many episodes"). First of all, it only stands out because it's eight episodes. RTD and Moffat both wrote the majority of the episodes in their seasons when the episode count was 12-13. Secondly, and more importantly, I'd rather we get an entire season written by the same person that is good throughout, over bringing in other writers to write dogwater filler episodes and lower the quality of a season. Mike White writes every episode of The White Lotus by himself and wrote every episode of Enlightened, Adam Reed with Archer, Aaron MacGruder with The Boondocks. All of those shows (for the time the head writers were the only writers) are some of the best TV out there, and nobody complains about that.
It seems that with each Modern Era Doctor their Seasons get shorter & have longer gaps in between them.
At least this current season got an upgrade from Flux’s 6 to 8 😂 also it’s looking ljke we won’t have super long gaps for at least the next few years, with series 2 already filmed completely and series 3 will probably be filmed with enough time to come out year after next
@@SpiderBatFanI hope it gets renewed for season 3, I just really hope the episode count gets bigger!
Ngl even going back to the Chibnall 10 episode structure would help. That worked pretty well, especially if it's all single part stories.
That was kind of how it was like in the 80s before the cancellation. All of McCoy’s seasons had less than half the amount of episodes typically seen during that era.
I'm saddened that series have got shorter and shorter. I thought 10 was ok, and 6 was understandable during those crisis times, but only 8 now for a standard series is a shame.
Deleted previous post as put it here in error lol.
I honestly wasn’t the biggest fan of the Whitaker era but I thought 10 eps was the perfect amount. I also feel like this current series needs 2 more episodes to really flesh out the doctor and Ruby traveling together.
Tbh I don't even think 10 episodes is enough. I think a season of a show like Doctor Who needs at least 12 or 13 episodes to really feel complete.
I completely agree. I'd argue there's no such thing as "filler" - the episodes some people call filler are where we get to know our characters and learn to care about them. To take Babylon 5 as an example, seeing Londo take the deal offered by Mr. Morden would not make sense if we hadn't seen the previous episodes where the Centauri are treated as has-beens and keep giving territory up to Narn. And seeing Londo's face as Refa has Narn bombed using mass drivers and having him understand the nature of the tiger he has caught by the tail would not have anywhere near the impact without getting to know him for two seasons before.
The discussion reminds me of a Seinfeld episode where Elaine comes up with the idea of selling muffin tops, and then having problems figuring out what to do with the rest of the muffin. You need the whole muffin to get the actual muffin top.
As to your final point about profitability vs art: it's not necessarily an either or, but rather a sliding scale. BBC and Disney are corporations (though BBC is a bit weird with being license-financed rather than selling things directly), and do have financial obligations. It's a bit like in Angel season 5, where Angel is given control of the new LA branch of Wolfram & Hart, and when he asks what will happen if he runs it into the ground he gets told "Well, then you won't have it anymore." But there's a difference between maintaining and maximizing profit, and it would be nice if more corporations were satisfied with maintaining it.
The kind of "filler" people talk about tend to be like the anime kind where the characters do random things that don't add to the plot or the characters.
@@arahman56 If it doesn't add to the character, that's just a matter of bad writing. But I'm perfectly OK with an episode largely not advancing the plot.
Again, looking at Babylon 5, I'd say there are eight episodes in season 1 that are relevant to the overall plot (Midnight on the Firing Line, Mind War, And the Sky full of Stars, Signs and Portents, A Voice in the Wilderness parts 1 and 2, Babylon Squared, and Chrysalis. Would I want to get rid of the other 14 episodes? Heck no! They're the ones that provide context for the big eight.
@@BalooSJ
“Filler” is used to refer to episodes that were created not because someone had a good idea but because they needed 13 episodes and so they had to come up with something.
Boom Town is a good example.
@@ob4161 But Boom Town is a perfectly cromulent episode. It might not be anyone's favorite, but it's fine. RebootWho season 1 would be a worse experience if it was cut without any replacement.
I've liked the sampling platter of Doctor Who episode types this season. I can see the argument about episodic shows needing a normal, my problem is more simply: I want more! The season is already halfway over
Very good point that they're telling not showing about the normal
It's impossible to do anymore than 9 out yearly
Why is it impossible to do more?
I like it when the show does more experimental stuff, but I also think it needs more “normal” episodes that follow a consistent formula and develop the characters and feel of the show in a more natural way. Episodes like 73 Yards and The Devil’s Chord suffer because the Doctor and Ruby’s characters haven’t even really been properly established yet. The pacing in this season is all over the place, and it’s really hurting the new era.
@@benjamindavis4974yes especially if they change costumes every episode even scene to scene, it takes a lot more planning now. If they somehow make more 2 parters in the same location then I think they could do more than 9, since 2 episodes same location has less planning and sets to it.
The revival's first 10 seasons arguably had as much content as the Pertwee/Baker seasons (roughly 13 hour long episodes are equal to 26 hour hour episodes). Chibnall's already shorter run plus the pandemic resulted in just 31 episodes. That's roughly 62 half hour eps -- not a lot comparatively, especially since that was over five years (2018 to 2022) compared to Pertwee (128 half-hour episodes over 1970 to 1974).
Of course, Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy had far fewer episodes than most classic era Doctors (for different reasons) but the series in clear decline at that point. If Ncuti sticks around longer than 3 seasons, I'd be OK with fewer eps per season but if he just does 3, I'll wonder if I'll actually really "know" this Doctor.
I have to agree with all points -- even if they 'fill in' the missing time jumps with Big Finish, novels, etc., most fans will be missing out
yanno, that's so true, i hope we don't just get 3 short seasons with 15, that would be a traveshamockery! he's really good and millie really grew on me these last two episodes
I hope you mean only mean decline in ratings when it came to McCoy's tenure and not decline in quality.
I love McCoy's Last Two Seasons (and 'Paradise Towers').
@@nekusakura6748 Decline in ratings only! I like the 7th Doctor run overall
Honestly I’d be open to them doing an American Network standard 20-24 episode season if they had a balance between standard episode, showpiece episodes, and proper, complex arcs that are more than just ‘let’s tease a mystery every episode and then just entirely resolve it in the finale’.
This season feels like the last one ever, with RTD throwing all his ideas in (even though s2 has already been filmed). I'm enjoying it quite a bit, but I really wonder what new viewers think of this? This short, fast season must be quite incomprehensible for people who don't know anything about the Doctor, UNIT, The Gods of Chaos, etc...
I realised after last week's episode (73 yards) that it was already half way through the season. So yeah, I think 10 should be the minimum but I'd prefer 12 or 13, with an additional Xmas episode as that's a thing since 2005.
With 8 episodes, you start getting really comfortable with it and then it's nearly over. I'd also like at least one 2-parter per season, just don't centre the cliffhanger on the Doctor or companion in a life threatening situation we know they'll survive, make it about something else. Some shows work great with 6 to 8 episodes but IMO not for DW, it needs longer.
Also, your points you just made about Ruby being familiar with the Doctor, even though they only just met from our POV, along with the time jump, is just more evidence to me that the episode order was swapped. I believe The Devil's Chord was originally meant for later which would explain Ruby's comments. In 73 yards, Ruby also says they haven't known each other that long, when she believes the Doctor has locked himself in the TARDIS. Yet 6 months of constant travelling is quite a long while.
The Devil's Chord was apparently filmed in the same block as episode 6, so it could have been swapped with that and it'll be interesting to see if more info comes from that episode next week.
@@Elwaves2925 Yeah the contrasting statements in 73 Yards and Devil's Chord from Ruby really confused me. It makes me feel like the production of this season was a little bit badly planned, especially when considering that Ncuti wasn't in the past two episodes much because he was busy filming Sex Education
@@guy3854 Yeah, her comments don't quite fit right and that's why I think it will be interesting to keep an ear open next week.
I have wondered if Devil's Chord was pulled forward once the decision was made to air two episodes to start the season? That way, both the BBC and Disney could make the most of advertising the Beatles episode, instead of it being just another mid-run episode.
Ncuti was in the latest episode, he only really missed one, not two. Although both he and Millie had lesser roles this week. I've also heard Barbie was the reason, not Sex Ed but whatever, it doesn't really matter which one it was.
It is weird to get 2 doctor light eps back to back in a season this short. I did not realize we were only getting 8 eps.
Definitely need more epsodes to flesh out this season, or at least, they could have spread the info dump in episode 1 over multiple episodes and add a montage of adventures at the end. It could create the impression that Ruby and the Doctor had spent a lot of time together, instead of every episode feeling like you missed a bunch of stuff.
It also doesn't help that the episodes seem to be out of order: The Devil's Chord should be in the middle (the mini-Boss) as the "You never hide" line makes no sense.
I very much agree with you about the standardising of 8 episodes doesn't work for a series like Doctor Who, but I would say Boom is a regular Doctor Who episode. In the end the ambulances and the algorithm are the monsters, just because it is mostly limited to 1 location and problem doesn't make it not a regular type episode, but that is just my opinion. Another thing I think that suffers is you get less time of character interplay, just them interacting, bonding, building, and that is usually filled by just being told and that is never a good way to handle that. Like you said, tell don't show its sadly happening. One more thing about having the "Exceptions" each time, each episode, is it makes topping them harder and harder the more pass. If all you eat is desert, even the best main course becomes underwhelming. Thank you so much for putting this all into words and putting it out to the world.
Yeah, I think the 12 episodes plus a christmas special was the perfect amount of episodes for Doctor Who
Yes and even more, it needs the episodes to be 10, even 5 minutes longer.
I miss the banter in the TARDIS so much. I miss getting to know the companion and seeing their relationship w the doctor. I don’t need all action, every scene.
Yk?
Couldnt agree more. Especially for a show like Doctor Who that lives on 'filler' adventure episodes where we get to know the characters and their dynamics.
I think Ncuti’s unavailability exemplified the problem. He’s an incredible Doctor and it’s absolutely worth shooting around his schedule. But how much better might it have been, given they shot so much in advance, to have episodes sprinkled in around those Doctor light episodes to make his absence less conspicuous. I’m enjoying the season but I also feel like I’m waiting for it to start in a way I can’t fully explain.
8 episode seasons work well for a franchise show. So unless we get more Torchwood, or that UNIT spin-off, I don't want to have to gear up once a year and have the show roll over and go to sleep. As to filler, one of my favorites is filler: Edge of Destruction season 1 (original recipe) story 3.
You need the cereal in lucky charms so you can better appreciate the marshmallows
Your point about 8 episodes series' becoming the normal I feel is coming from a very American POV because as someone from the UK 6-8 episodes in a series has always been the norm, DW (and a few others like Merlin etc.) was the exception. I think realistically DW is not gonna be longer than 10 Eps anymore since both RTD and Moffat have spoken at various points about how hard they found doing 12/13 episodes plus a special each year and it took it's toll on the stars themselves as both Capaldi and Smith had physical health issues off the back of leaving as the schedule was so gruelling. I know you were mainly talking from a narrative POV though.
I think having 10 Episodes works better just so you dont overwork everyone to the point they have health issues
I think you are younger than me - it certainly wasn't always the norm. Blake's 7 was 13 episodes a series, Sapphire and Steel 14, Powers had 13, The New Avengers had 13, The Professionals had 13. Shameless was all over the place with series length - but some were very long. Even Doctor Who when I was young had 26 episodes (and when it started in the 40s per season).
Maybe 10 episodes could work - if the length of an episode is extended. So 10 episodes of an hour. Some of the problems of 13 episodes of a show like Doctor Who is all the setup / teardown of different sets etc, location dressing, etc which does eat into the time (and eats into the budget). Also from a writing pov you have to introduce a new setting - a new world, or a new time, in many of those episodes. More time would give a bit more space for exploring character, or just to give episodes a bit of space to breathe.
Talking about the Doctor running, I'm reminded of Christopher Eccleston's interaction with Billie Piper in the first episode of the new era:
"I'm the doctor, by the way. What's your name?"
"Rose."
"Nice to meet you, Rose. Run for your life!"
This reminds me of Strange New Worlds Season 2 taking a disproportionate amount of big swings. I think the “normal” benchmark may be the same for that as for Doctor Who: the benchmark is its own multi-decade history. There are hundreds of “standard” episodes, and in an era of streaming one can go back to any of them - the exception with Who being that they’re not all on the same service so not as easily accessible. I don’t know if that’s good enough, but if I had to guess that’s the thought behind it.
Totally agree that the multi-parter may be dead, though.
This is why I adore your views, it feels like we are the Borg and you’re our Borg queen!
“Standard” episodes are ones in which the characters shine more than the plot, imo. We see our main characters share jokes and learn little things about each other. One thing I think this video is getting at is that emotional payoffs only work when we know the characters. And, no matter what the philosophers say, we know people by seeing how they act day to day. This then contrasts how they act in extremely situations. I think about Rose and the Doctor in the Idiot’s Lantern or Fear Her. We learn TONS about Martha in her episodes because we see so much of her, and almost every Donna episode has rewatch value because the character chemistry is so good without needing any help.
I 100% agree that Doctor who should have more episodes but 8 episodes could easily work, heck Doctor who has technically done it before. In 2007 Big Finish started the 8th Doctor Adventures and modeled a lot of it after how the 05 series was handling stuff, Modern day(2004) companion, 45 min episodes, mystery building up in the background etc, and those seasons where just 8 episodes(until s4 which is 10 with 2 Christmas specials) but each one still felt like a full season of Doctor who where you got to know the new companion and they're dynamic with the Doctor and they still had some "filler" episodes and build up to a 2 part finale.
I think the real problem is RTD just isn't putting the episodes to good use and it seems like he doesn't want to spend time on building up the characters relationship or on more standard who episodes anymore. There was also a problem on the production side with Ncuti's schedule. RTD didn't make 73 yards and Dot and Bubble Doctor lite because he had 2 really great Doctor lite ideas that he had to do this season structure be damned he made them because Ncuti was busy so they needed 2 episodes that he wasn't in. It definitely hurts more when there's only 8 episodes but I don't think a unique production problem is a good reason why Doctor Who can't make 8 episodes work.
Also I think the order of episodes this season is so weird. IMO if Rouge turns out to be a standard episode like it seems than it should of been after Devils Cord and then do Dot and Bubble, followed by Boom and 73 Yards leading us into the finale, this way we'd get to see more of Ruby and the Doctor before he is taken away in 73 yards and we wouldn't have 2 Doctor Lite stories right next to each other
I gotta say, it's refreshing that we're now demanding MORE of the show, as opposed to the Chibnall era when we were all just begging for it to stop.
I’m thinking the 8 episode count to keep it annual is making room for spin offs to fill the gaps for when it isn’t on but how that goes only the future will tell.
If we can’t have more episodes I would just like the ones we already have to be longer.
He’s also cried every episode. That used to be something really emotional cause they don’t like to show themself slipping. Now it’s business as usual.
putting a notification sound in the video at 8:16 left me searching for who was messaging me
I felt 10 episodes was a happy medium, at least if they want to do a season every year. Davies has said before that making fourteen episodes (including the special) of Doctor Who every year was not the greatest time, especially with all the production problems that Series one went through.
Totally agree. I grew up on 26 x ½ hour Doctor Who episodes per year. New Who reduced that to 13 x 45 minute(ish) episode per year and that was fine too, The Jodie Whittaker season was reduced to just 10 episodes per season and that troubled me. And now, to make matters worse, this new season has gone down to just 8 episodes.
And how much screen time has the new Doctor put in during the first 4 episodes?
The problem you mentioned in the modern Star Trek movies also applies to Daniel Craig Bond movies. The first one is basically a Bond origin story, he's only just become a 00, he has no gadgets and is just a blunt instrument, and he genuinely falls in love, and only at the end when that goes wrong does he become the cold, heartless Bond we know. But then in his second movie he quickly goes off the grid and works against MI6 instead of just doing his mission. Then in the third he's already old and washed up and has "been James Bond too long" when we haven't even really seen him be James Bond in the traditional sense. It corrects a little in giving him gadgets and a defined mission and villain but then MI6 is destroyed and he has to work on his own/with M underground again.
Honestly yes thats exactly what I've been missing from the show. Just interim scenes with the Doctor and Ruby relaxed talking on the TARDIS. Or even them discussing a conspiracy theory or having some sort of character developing interaction.
I just need the Doctor and Ruby to feel like real people, not just bff actors who occasionally pop in to banter or shed a single tear down their cheek. lol
The lack of two-parters and cliffhangers in the new season is very noticeable. I long for the days of the Family of Blood’s “Maid or matron. Your friend, or your lover” cliffhanger. Same with the Empty Child and Under the Lake cliffhangers. There were lots of great finale cliffhangers, but the earlier two-parters really added something
Rewatched series 1 recently and I think the reason The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances stands out so much and is so triumphant is because of that contrasts to the rest of the series so far.
In the new season I've enjoyed Boom, 73 yards and Dot and Bubble but I can't help but feel like they would've had more impact with status quo episodes earlier in the season.
Space Babies may be like the official start of the season, but the unofficial start started with the 60th anniversary episodes and the Christmas special. So to speak, adding them in makes 12 episodes which is almost average length of a New Who season. I’m not trying to defend the position of 8 episode Doctor Who seasons, but in hindsight this almost kind of makes sense to some extent
I said to my wife last night that, so far, this season feels more like an anthology series than a traditional show.
I think the American standard of 20 to 24 episodes per season was to hit the magic number of at least 100 so the series could be sold into syndication. Series with fewer episodes often were not shown in syndication back in the day. Now, that people usually steam their favorite shows that doesn't matter so much.
It's crazy how Ncuti had more screentime in The Giggle than the last two episodes combined.
That's actually just completely wrong. 73 Yards yeah, but he was on screen for at least 1/3 of Dot and Bubble, and got the same amount of screentime as Ruby.
You're being pretty ridiculous. 73 Yards was a Doctor-lite episode, which EVERY normal season since 2005 has had- and then with Dot and Bubble you're literally just incorrect because the Doctor is on-screen easily half of the runtime at a minimum.
It's not though, is it? He was in 73 yards for 2 minutes, and Dot for like 7. He had more time in The Giggle. You're both ridiculous for instantly jumping down my throat over this when you're both the wrong ones. Do the math. And if it turns out I'm a minute off or whatever then that's just pedantic.
And yeah lol sure every season had a Doctor-lite. But the seasons were 13 episodes. So your "point" is a strawman. Well done.
Seriously idk what's with the hostility. I WANT MORE OF THE DOCTOR. What's wrong with that?
Really I think this hits on the biggest problem I've had this week. It isn't bad that they made two Doctor Lite stories, I enjoyed both of them and Doctor Lite stories are usually really interesting.
My problem is that they were released back to back on a weekly schedule. It makes it feel like we haven't properly had him for a really long time, even though he does have a relatively substantial presence in this episode. I do wonder if at least getting the rest of the season will make it a little better, Rogue looks like a fun traditional adventure! But genuinely. Having a few more episodes that could go anywhere on this timeline would solve the few problems I have had with the season as a whole, even if I have been enjoying getting something wildly different every week.
@@Synthpopper ah yes the incredibly hostile statements of "that's just completely wrong" and "you're being ridiculous"
Thank you! I couldn't figure out what was bugging me and you nailed it.
we need the time to get to know the characters better, we missed 6 months of the most important part of their relationship, Ruby really learning what it’s like traveling in the TARDIS, what have they been doing for 6 months if they haven’t seen an alien sky already by the time we get to boom
imagine if buffy had lost all it's filler episodes: we woudn't have Hush, Once More With Feeling, The Wish, probably The Body.
I personally maintain that 13 episodes should be a bare minimum of a season and that a short season overall can pace itself well so it doesn't feel like too many ideals are muscling in on each other. With the newer seasons of Doctor Who, I feel like the "one adventure per episode" format helps so that time gaps between episodes feel less weird.
That said, there are solutions to the "six months" thing that Steven Moffat did well. Namely in how the Doctor is shown on a montage of travels with the Ponds in some stories, particularly in the latter's penultimate episode.
I feel that a wacky montage for Ruby traveling with Fifteen after Space Babies would help not just in terms of fun but in showing the norm of their travels.
I wasn’t that upset about it going into the season but at this point, fully agreed
What we have are a pretty strong collection of individual high-concept episodes that don’t gel together into a larger story nearly as well as they should, and I think a lot of it is that the establishing beats don’t have room to breathe.
Space Babies felt like it was trying to speedrun all of the stuff that would normally be established over the course of the first three episodes or so, and none of it landed as a result, and we haven’t gotten a proper standard exploration of the character dynamic yet for the same reason.
I find myself in a weird spot where I think I’ll look back on a lot of these episodes as favorites, but the season as a whole will not be among my favorite seasons
It sorta bugs me less because Doctor Who has always been episodic with serials of Classic Who being self contained to the point of how whole swaths were missing without realizing.
That said, I feel your topic could be best expanded to TV overall. I always felt some ideas in a given season were best delegated to the next. Yes, cancellation are at an all time high but hey, live and let die. Take a shot.
Agreed, almost every Marvel show needed more than 6 episodes, or 9 with 20 minutes each as well.
Excuse me, but "whole swaths missing without realizing"? You got a source for that? I seem to recall people noticing pretty damn quick that a whole bunch of Doctor Who was missing basically the second that home video was born. You appear to be grossly misinformed.
@@HOTD108_ I was talking pre-internet era. I apologize for the generalized tone I took.
"If every day's a sunny day, then what's a sunny day?"
One thing somewhat lost from classic Doctor Who is how the Doctor & companions wouldn't get wrapped up in the conflict from the start; rather, they'd be visiting friends or vacationing, and suddenly someone's stolen all the paintings from the British Museum.
We don't necessarily need "normal" but we do need more "slower and fun" moments.
I had this exact discussion yesterday , 6-8 episode seasons shouldn’t be the norm . It hurts the story, characters, and universe more than it helps . My one other complaint about this season is the lack of development or real character/relationship building between Ruby and the Doctor . The moment they meet to the moment we leave in dot and bubble , they’re the same . Ruby never challenges the doctors morals , ruby doesnt doesn’t do anything that causes turmoil or doubts from the doctor , nothing new . They meet , instantly click and have a bubbly back and forth vibe and it never changes . You could watch these 4 episodes out of order any which way and it would make sense and that bothers me . The ONLY thing that develops over the episodes is them finally recognizing Twist ..
i would like to see episodes involving other planets problems and more science fiction and that blue box thing ????
You've had 60 years of that. Surely you can survive one season without it?
@@HOTD108_ while i agree with you, please keep in mind that this season for many people is season one, due to the marketing and new release on disney+.
@@HOTD108_ john Pertwee did not always have the blue box ???
@@HOTD108_ We've had 60 years of that because that's what the show is literally about. That reliable formula is why the show has lasted for this long. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
lol that facebook messenger noise at 8:17
That sneaks in sometimes and I almost never catch it in the edit.
@@CouncilofGeeks i know that feeling just had to laugh cause i was very confused for a sec ha
I agree. Worth considering that what became the gold standard in the classic era was 5x4 + 1x6, so about 11 hours. However it was spread out over half a a year and involved a lot of recapping of story, characters, setting. I recall this as necessary refamiliarisation rather than padding, but there was a fair bit of padding as well (particularly in the problematic 6 parters). This obviously wasn't felt to fit modern viewing expectations in 2005 and probably rightly, but at least the run spanned a quarter of a year. Cutting down to 10 hours or so under Chibnall and now 8 hours packed into 6 weeks doesn't feel right and I'd certainly be happy with more roughage in the diet. I also agree that it's difficult to understand why Ruby thinks the Doctor is so bloody wonderful when all she's seen him do is escape some sky sailing goblins, show her some dinosaurs, tame a baby snot monster, lose a cartoon musical duel and twice put his foot in it. Travelling with him may be a wacky ride, but he's hardly done enough to inspire admiration. At least that we've seen and whatever we might not have seen can hardly be taken as significant.
I'm sorry but you can't make this argument only in terms of the content of the show, production needs and funding has to be factored in. Just because Season 2 started filming before Season 1 came out doesn't mean there's enough wriggle room for more episodes. Its easy for us as fans to say how many the show needs to work but at one point maybe RTD deserves credit for trying to make the formula work.
I don't think this has anything to do with the number of episodes, I think it's that the relationship between the Doctor and Ruby feels a lot faster than elsewhere.
But I also feel like part of that is that this Doctor just feels more open in general and he let her in as a result, like most of the symbols of trust were put in place in Space Babies not Devil's Chord.
This is a completely tangential side-point, but when you were talking about the Kelvin-verse _Star Trek_ movies and mentioned how we never really got a "normal" one to establish a baseline between the non-standard events, it sort of put me in mind of another example that I feel fits that pattern: Daniel Craig's Bond movies. With Craig's entry into the series, we got a reboot in the form of _Casino Royale,_ which on its own merits was a fresh take on the franchise, because it was showing Bond's origins as a 00 agent. _Quantum of Solace_ didn't quite live up to its predecessor, but it more or less functioned as a 'part two' to the story it set up, and it set up the plot thread of Quantum as a shadowy cabal in the vein of SPECTRE. In both those movies, Bond is a rookie 00 agent, and it's clear that M hasn't quite established the level of implicit trust and deference that had been demonstrated to James Bond in the series before the reboot. And then, suddenly, with _Skyfall..._ he's a tired veteran agent who's over the hill and past his prime, and he can't even shoot straight to save someone else's life? Like, what? When did that happen? And where was the adventure with James Bond _in his actual prime,_ investigating deeper into Quantum? Don't get me wrong, I think _Skyfall_ is a phenomenal movie (better than the two that came after it)... but it's phenomenal in spite of its implications that Bond has been (or should've been) through a lot in the interim directly before it, and we as an audience never got to see him conducting 'business as usual'.
This is a really interesting prespective and I think it answers some questions I've had with my overall satisfaction of the series so far. While I've enjoyed each episode (some greatly, some just enough) I've overall felt slightly dissatisfied and I think it is because of the lack of status quo. I'm going between episodes without breathing space so none of it feels like the same show or that I've just seen the Doctor and Ruby just do what the Doctor and Companion would normally do, so thank you.
I also think that having every episode be "the exception" or take a "big swing" means that you create more controversy amongst viewers and more divide. And, whilst like you I LOVE when Doctor Who does something new and off the beaten track, if every episode divides fan and is a marmite episode without the "easy to get behind" and neutral nature of filler episodes you can turn off fans (especially newer viewers) more easily who either won't really get what the show is meant to be or just feel frustration at not knowing what to expect or not knowing whether you'll strongly like or dislike an episode.
Yeah... I really hate how "filler" seems to have become such a dirty word. Some of my favorite episodes of my favorite classic shows are "filler". No dramatic reveals that change everything, just ordinary status quo to help sell the idea that this fictional setting is a real place, full of real people, all just going about their routine lives.
I do hope we get 10 episodes (not including xmas) in season 3, but I doubt it.
i had hoped the deal with a shortened episode count would be a longer runtime for each episode, would kill for episodes of 60, 70, 80, even 90 mins runtime. not sure how flexible the BBC would be on it but having each episode just be as long as it needs to be would be so refreshing
I feel like the Episodes are intentionally out of order. I'm surprised no one is mentioning this aspect?
Each episode has The Doctor or Ruby referencing the time they've spent together and that time period is different in each Episode and its intentionally stated.
Space Babies is obviously their first adventure. The Devil's Chord happens 6 months later when they've had many adventures together. Boom happens during a time when Ruby is still experiencing 'firsts'... Firsts she'd have already experienced by the time The Devil's Chord happened, and 73 Yards she acknowledges not knowing The Doctor for very long and barely traveling... so clearly this is prior to Devil's Chord. The show going out of it's way to mention the time period The Doctor and Ruby traveled together in each Episode and that time period changing per episode or being less than the 6th month mark that was in The Devil's Chord makes it all feel intentional. We're seeing their adventures out of order in the timeline, we just need to figure out why, because it's very clearly not an accident.
And you can't hold an Episode being good against it as not being 'standard romp', especially when 12 and Bill's Episode is considered standard romp but was also a great Episode, and I feel like that's being done to Devil's Chord. Devil's Chord was standard Doctor Who romp and fun, and even ended with a song. There was no "HUGE GIGANTIC" message, unless you think the big message was 'in a world without music nuclear war happens'. Space Babies and Devil's Chord was the 'standard romps', and Boom and 73 Yards and ESPECIALLY Dot and Bubble were the deeper more messaged hard hitting episodes imho.
Thank you. This. I agree with your analysis. I also just want more because I love it.
Leave 'em wanting more!
I think this could also help make Fifteen's emotional highs & lows more impactful. Tharries made a tweet about how Fifteen crying in every episode is going to reduce the impact of bigger emotional moments, but ultimately I think the frequent crying isn't the issue. It's the same problem you're talking about here - we need a break, give someone else an emotion
I'm starting to agree with this as well. The 10th Doctor crying in Doomsday was so effective because it was so rare for him to break down like that. When 15 shows emotion to that extent it just doesn't feel as impactful because he does it all the time.
@@Creek932 idk I don't think it's necessarily bad for him to show that much emotion; I think we just need to spread out the reactions among characters
I think having 2 episodes on launch didn't help. I get why they did it as space babies might have lost some people but then don't start with that.
I don't mind myself if it means more quality but I've noticed compared to other shows, doctor who doesn't seem to be on as much.
I'm kind of hoping bringing back spin offs can help this. Having maybe a spin off early in the year then having one late and the series in the middle. Means the show is on in some way throughout the year but also we don't get too many spin offs to avoid people getting sick of it
I agree, we need at least 12. I have the same problem with Strange New Worlds. So i 10 probably wouldn't be enough either. With SNW I want at least 12. But if Doctor Who was 10 episodes, plus a christmas special each year. 11 is still good.
We need more episodes. It’s too short of a season to flush out the plot without it feeling rushed.
I've watched every video you've done on doctor who and never really interacted before but i couldn't agree more! I am loving how 'out there' this season is but i feel like were missing a lot of the team dynamic due to how 'out there' the new episodes are. We're skipping a lot of the emotional connections we could get through extra episodes. Its not like they don't have the budget to have more episodes now, although maybe the discourse will help the BBC see how much the community are back into DW and give us more, but I don't hold out hope. (PS i love ur videos and love hearing you views on everything I've watched:))
IMHO what we got was an 11 episode season (the three specials being episodes -2, -1, and 0.) I would argue we saw great low episode runs from the likes of Arcane and Fallout and that those episode lengths were perfect for those series in the hands of those creators. Doctor Who is not the same creature though, a great deal of it's value is in calm character moments and slow burn setups. Doctor Who needs more episodes because it's Doctor Who. (Unrelated Side Note: Still can't get over the idea that somehow the greatest composer of all time is an old British piano teacher from the 20s according to The Devil's Chord.)
There's a reason for it only being 8 episodes + Christmas special a season and that is it's the only way to make it air yearly
From 2005 to 2008 they managed fine with 13 episode seasons and they had a lower budget then
@@aceyboi8329and RTD has gone on record as saying how hard he found that, besides, most tv shows in the UK have 8 episodes per season, DW has always been one of the exceptions.
They filmed it so far ahead that they could have had filmed more episodes, they had time (and the money).
@@lukesavage3067 they filmed so far ahead it actually hurt the season because ncuti gatwa was barely available for 2 eps, 2 doctor lite eps in one season a shorter season in my opinion that ain't acceptable
@@aceyboi8329 RTD and Moffat have said doing it that way nearly killed both of them from stress.
Right off the bat: I do agree with this general feeling, especially when it comes to a show like Doctor Who. I've always thought of 8 episodes as "mini-series length" (though I think a mini-series could be as short as 3 and as long as 10, maybe even 13, though that's more a single-season show), and the shrinking seasons for certain shows (like DW) does feel like it has badly served them. That said, I don't have the exact same complaints (or reasoning behind them) - I don't think it makes them any less special, but I do agree that we need more "normal-ish" adventures for the duo because we've now seen very little of them actually working together (we probably could've used another episode between Space Babies & Devil's Chord, feels almost like DC was moved earlier in the season post-production). That said, I don't fully agree on the 13-episode Netflix show criticism - I think part of why some of those shows sagged in the middle wasn't episode count, but budget and a lack of strong throughlines (outside of the initial seasons, most of the Netflix "MCU" shows sagged in the middle as they shifted from one story to another). In the end, I don't disagree with this thesis, though.
If you count the 3 part 60th anniversary specials and the Christmas episode, that's technically 12 episodes overall.
I wouldn’t count those since:
1) They’re not in the same year.
2) It’s not the same Doctor, so other than the last 1/4 of The Giggle it doesn’t count toward understanding anything about the current Doctor.
"Standard" carries a better connotation than "filler." A filler episode is a dead end episode that doesn't move any big picture arc forward. A standard episode in Doctor Who is usually a Doctor + companion character study that helps establishes the pair's relationship to each other while on the surface serves as a standalone mystery or problem to solve. So far this truncated season hasn't given us much of a clue of how each of the two feel internally about each other.
Part of why I'm excited for Rogue is that it looks like a standard episode AND it has new writers, so it should still feel different and unique.
I like season 4 those episodes with wasp was a breather and comedic before seriousness of Donna or what’s coming up for the doctor
While I agree that more episodes would be good, my main issue is the structure of the episodes. If they can only do a set number of minutes per season (which is roughly the same number of minutes for a McCoy season), then I'd much rather them divide the minutes better. The good thing about the 45 minute story in the earlier seasons, was the fact they had 13 episodes to work with. The variety made up for the short story length. When you only have 8 to work with, it leaves the season feeling very rushed, but what if instead it was 4 two part stories, it would give the plot breathing room and more character opportunities.
I have similar feelings to Super Sentai. I understand where you are coming from, but I really don't mind how non standard this season has been. I like that these episodes have been unorthodox and different because Doctor Who has been standard for so long. Like Super Sentai, I don't mind seeing a season of experimentation and breaking away from the normal that has defined the franchise for so long.
That said, I do agree about having longer episode counts. I generally love this season so far, but it's too short. There's just not enough time to spend with the characters.
But I have this problem with streaming television in general. Seasons are too short and there's no breathing room. Every season feels like a long movie which doesn't work.
Great video! I seem to recall, when it was first confirmed that Season 1 would have 8 episodes, RTD spoke about it in DWM and said they’re just getting started and it takes a while to build an empire. I remember reading it at the time and thinking that maybe it won’t be 8 episodes going forward - but now I can’t find the quote!
They are trying for a serialised feel with all leading up to a wrap up finale and deliberate loose ends in every episode.
Nah, that's the usual mystery box stuff the show's been doing since it was revived.
Modern comics have a version of this problem: if all you are doing is messing with the status quo, you have to show us some status quo. You can't just stumble from earth shattering event to earth shattering event.
We don't want our comfort food shows to be constantly challenging us and showing us how clever they are.
We'd be just as happy to see Ncuti tangle with the Ice Warriors, play detective or fight pirates.
When you say 'bog standard', you are actually talking about the good stuff.
While I would certainly love four more episodes than this season is giving us, I think the issue with this season might just be the flow. This was all shot out of order to begin with, which is no big thing, aside from maybe it getting a bit muddled when the show runners are looking at the whole season arc. I think that if they had shuffled one or two of these further into the future (like next season in the case of _The Devil's Chord)_ they might have had more time for episodes like _Gridlock, It Takes You Away, The God Complex, The Doctor's Wife, The End of the World,_ or even _Creature from the Pit_ or _Enemy of the World._ That said having seen everything through _Dot and Bubble_ I think that while they are very good, you could lump _Dot and Bubble_ and _Boom_ both in with the these are just good/very good episodes of an episodic show (i.e. "the normal ones"). I think it's more the case of them explaining things rather than them showing us.
In general, I disagree that we need more normal episodes. We have *decades* of normalcy to compare these big swings to. Honestly, every episode I'm thinking about what you said leading up to this season about Davies doing something original. I agree it hurts the show to have fewer episodes, but at least we are getting something new. I think the most compelling argument for normalcy is, as you say, the references to it that are supposed to suggest they've been together longer than they have, but I think that's more of an issue with the shortness than the type of episodes.
Great discussion!
It's like you've read my mind and turned it into a well-articulated video. I agree with everything you've said!
The unicorn and the wasp slander?! Outrageous!!
(I love the unicorn and the wasp)
I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH THIS, i hope that perhaps the short series was due to Ncuti filming for sex education, which is also why we've had 2 doctor-lite episodes so maybe series 2 will have the full 12-13 episodes, or at least 10
I've grown to detest the terms "filler" and "filler episode(s)" when it comes to media discussion outside of anime. That said, I fully agree that stories need the smaller chapters/episodes, because the big moments don't feel as big as they should, when they're one after another.
I was already bothered by the way the Doctor has not gotten to shine in his normal way ever since Church on Ruby Road, but your criticism is also really valid and I agree with it!
I started watching your channel because I was desperate for to listen to other people’s opinions and views after I watched “The Star Beast” and your channel was the first that came up. Since then, it’s become my favourite channel for Doctor Who content and ai find myself eagerly awaiting your thoughts after I finish each episode this season. Keep up the great work!
As a side note, finding out that you like Babylon 5 solidified this as an S Tier channel.
You would think with Disney now involved they would have said "BBC we want more episodes, here is the extra money to fund it?"
I agree we need time for our leads to establish a rapport. I liked 12 because it was like when we had 13 but with the worst one cut from the roster. We need to get back to that.
I think it's pretty telling that almost every episode has been commented on with a variation of "This one should have come later in the season". But then again, I'm afraid it has less to do with the season's length than with the stories it presents. As you say, almost every one of them is acting like a precious birthday boy. I don't know, maybe it has more to do with the episode runtime? The classic seasons did very well with 6 stories per year, but they were all multiparters and had more time to explore themes and characters. Personally, I felt a lot of stories felt somewhat rushed this season so far, and they all could have used some 10 to 15 extra minutes to make more out of them.
I’m surprised we haven’t seen the inside of the tardis since like the first episode
You’ve managed to put into words something that has bothered me throughout this season. The devil's chord is written as the mid season game changer, instead it’s episode two. Boom was written to offer a different challenge to a character that has been around for years, yet is episode 3 of a season marketed as season 1.
It also keeps it going longer. At 8 episodes you get less than 2 months out of a year to get to immerse yourself into the world. That was another bonus of a longer season on a weekly release.
The Star Trek comment reminds me Daniel Craig's Bond. I love his era so much for the most part, but they gave us 2 movies about his origin as OO7, and the third one was about how old he was for the job because it was the 50th Anniversary. It will always annoys me.
I think the other thing more episodes provide a chance for is character/relationship development. And with good writers, that's always a good thing, and gets viewers/fans more invested.
Agreed. The filler is the major reason I prefer the original Sailor Moon anime over Sailor Moon Crystal---seeing the characters' everyday relationships makes the larger moments all the more impactful. I hope future seasons of the DisneyWho era increase the episode count to at least 12.
8 episodes because viewers tend to dip as shows go on. Big boost on the beginning, maybe a peak if it gets a good reputation, then it starts to fade until you drum up hype with finale marketing. 8 episodes is just the minimum they can get away with. They’d probably do 6 if they could
It's strange, because I've long been thinking that more shows should go for the older BBC format if fewer episodes and time between seasons, as far as network television is concerned. There are a lot of series that I've loved that had multiple seasons of 22-25 episodes, but when I go back to them, I find myself seeing how much a show can lose itself when forced to create that many stories every year. And I completely agree with you on the Netflix shows. I loved the Marvel shows, but they didn't need to be as long as they were. On the flip side, the current Marvel shows are shorter, and sometimes feel like there's a lot missing (Secret Invasion being one blatant example, and one show that I really didn't care for because of that). As for Doctor Who, yes, there should be more episodes. This new season feels like it's being rushed. I'm loving it, but I need another 4-5 episodes to really capture the overall story.
8 episodes is a miniseries, not a season!
Not by Disney+ standards
12-13, and more two parters! Please!
God I miss the days of Series 1-5, where we had 13 episodes in a season and 3 two-parters
This is one of your best videos. So spot on x