CAN Bus Troubleshooting No Communication Diagnostic Strategy( Stop Guessing and Start Diagnosing!)
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- Опубликовано: 6 фев 2025
- This vehicle is a 2006 Silverado which had multiple electronics not working. Can Bus Troubleshooting included. Instrument cluster, Windows, among others. We go through the strategy here of diagnosing this vehicle quickly and accurately. Using a Scan tool, Pico Scope and Some other tools, we can isolate the problem and get to repairing the vehicle for this customer.
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See Keith Here: / onboardtech333kmd
Eric can be found here: / @southmainauto
Super Mario: / @supermariodiagnostics
Chris: / @scienceofdiagnostics
Mike: / @flatratemaster
TBT: / @trainedbytechs
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U-Isolate can be found here: www.aeswave.com/uIsolate-Network-Isolator-p9669.html
Joe's Auto Electric only problem with aeswave is they can’t keep product in stock. Every time I go and try to buy some products they are always out. Lol great problem to have.
they are on back order at this time !
First of all, you DON'T talk too much. Your concise and thorough explanations have taught me a lot.
I love doing electrical and network diagnostics. It is the most fun I have at work. Although it gives me headaches sometimes. Thanks for making these types of videos.
You don`t talk too much, love the explanation. Solid diagnostic logic. You take good care of customers, they appreciate that and spread the good word. Turns out aftermarket junk strikes again. No need for you to EVER apologize, you always come up with a good plan of attack. Thanks for sharing.
Solid diagnostic discipline...On behalf of all watching, thanx JAE...
I would say MOST techs don't know how to do this level of diagnostic work
Including dealerships
Great video, Joe! Network diagnostics is what separates the parts changer from the diagnostician. Glad to hear the customer was happy and that is how the business grows :) Also good point on NOT TOUCHING anything before testing!!
Thank you for touching the aspects that nobody can hardly begin to
Thank you for your time. I appreciate you taking the time to explain the situation and the process of how to diagnose the problem. Also, thank you for the sidebars where you add stories about your experiences. I appreciate your “rambling”, it’s like sitting in the lunchroom and sorbing knowledge from the more experienced techs.
Thanks Joe. As a younger tech I always appreciated the few knowledgeable guys who were willing to share what they knew, instead of keeping to themselves like 90% of the people out there.
I've always had a habit of explaining things from several angles, some people appreciate it, some just want a short answer they can use and get done quick. Your 'rambling' is appreciated. I totally agree with finding as much background info as possible, it helps to narrow the focus. Good video and gameplan.
Hello Joe, I want to let you know that I’m a big fan of your channel. I like your no nonsense, down to earth style, and your very methodical diagnostic techniques. I find your videos highly enlightening, yet often, very humbling at the same time. Because it makes me realize how much I don’t know, and have yet to learn, even though my dad was a mechanic back in the ‘80s, and I’ve grown up in his shadow, and have always strived to get better. This video was the most enlightening and humbling yet.
I say all this to let you know that you are making a positive difference, educating people. Don’t let the loudmouth idiots that run awash on the Internet get to you with their stupid, ridiculous comments. I’m sure it must be difficult to deal with at times, and to be honest, I’ve been considering starting my own channel for a couple of months now, but have hesitated for that very reason.
I do have one question regarding the truck. In a situation like this one, if I saw an aftermarket radio, I too would be suspicious of it. However, if I understood correctly, the aftermarket radio was installed 4 years ago, yet the owner says that the problems only started a few months ago, after he got the truck back from his brother in law. Now of course we both know that customer complaint descriptions can often be inaccurate or vague. Perhaps it’s one of those things you may never be able to find out, but if his story was in fact correct, I wonder how the radio actually caused the problem. I’m curious as to whether the radio started to maybe malfunction once the truck was in his brother in law’s possession, or seemingly more likely, whether he was messing around with other parts of the truck, seeing as how he installed LED taillights.
Well thank you! As for your question, you have to consider this. If a starter suddenly fails on a vehicle, it is not uncommon. Something that works today, is not guaranteed to work tomorrow...even people. I believe the owner to be completely honest in what he told me, as he was forthcoming with any info he could provide me. He simply wanted to get to the bottom of the problem. I believe the unit simply failed.
@Sam S What's this python flash_32PIC.pip that you mention? I Googled it but got no results. I've been wanting to try something called pyobd but need to upgrade my Linux box. Any advice would be welcome.
Great video I helped friend earlier today I wasn't electrical it was coolant leak on 05 Chevy Malibu max which looked couple months ago which had parked vehicle water pump was bad now looked couple months ago I could tell first 2 minutes I'm looking at it that the water pump was bad based on the water pump pulley was wobbling what happened to be over his house today and his wife was one of the car back up and running so I pulled the airbox off just to get Clearview of the water pump which as I said it was bad but it was leaking around the pulley which since I was already there today I change the water pump out for him but in the meantime I put the water pump back on and was going to stick to belt back on and realize he had two more pulleys bad tensioner pulley and an idler pulley just by paying attention
Great video very helpful.................aftermarket strikes again!
Ya always does
Knowledge of system, circuit, and network design and practicing your diagnostic procedures to be more efficient it key. The hard part for a growing tech is doing it in the approved time without costing the customer money for their lack of speed because of double checking and learning and development of their knowledge. Pressure of time is money causes bad diagnoses and costly mistakes. Joe by you and the guys sharing y'all knowledge and experience y'all help us improve in leaps and bounds and I'd like to thank you for that. I'm in the process of getting a Uscope and hopefully a vantage pro so I can improve at my own pace on my time. The shop I work for has a modis edge ( 2 channel scope) but it's the shops. So I can't use it without someone paying. It kills me to have a one percent doubt in a diagnoses no matter what part of the vehicle it is. Keep em rolling out Joe. Thanks again
Thanks Joe. You give us the no nonsense skinny of the auto repair world. You’re an individual about it too, we all know you’re not a cookie cutter kinda guy. Glad you didn’t quit like you had mentioned a while back. I like your style.
KC2
Joe you are a humble and good mechanic. Try to stay that way, no matter how big your business grows. I have seen another Automotive RUclips channel that I used to respect and visit frequently, but it has grown and I see red flags now. I am not impressed. I appreciate your honesty and integrity.
Those aftermarket radio interfaces can be a pain in the ass. When they work they work but when they don’t they can cause all kind of issues. If your going to flash a module and you see an aftermarket radio then you better unhook it first. It can make for a long day if you don’t know about the issues they cause. I love that other shops run from these problems as I enjoy diagnosing network problems except for this one time on an auction GTO that had an intermittent connection at one pin in the instrument cluster connector. It’s basically a Holden vehicle and scan tool compatibility was already janky even with tech2win so it threw even more variables into the mix. I was so happy when I found that problem. The car was clean otherwise and I guarantee it was run through the auction because nobody could find what was causing that issue.
Oh man...That sounds like a ball of crap...Great job catching that though.
Ow ya even the books in old toyotas tell you not to install a 2way mobile radio in the car
The knowledge you spread helps mechanics fix cars efficiently and helps change the perception that mechanics are trying to rip off the customer. Thank you bro!
Awesome! A lot of people just don’t understand electronics fail all the time. Saw the pic said data link connector, data lines, scope away. Scopes are an essential tool now.
Cudos to the shops who turned it down. Knowing your limits can save you from getting into a big mess!
Keep plugging away. Screw the the haters! They don’t get it!!
I hope you continue to do RUclips. Ignore the trolls. Your thought process alone is one of the main reasons I watch. Anyone can get on here and simply say “I fixed it, the end”. YOU show all of us how you got there....priceless!!
Means a lot to me. Thank you.
Joe's Auto Electric I’ve commented a lot recently on your videos because I seem to learn every time. Just FYI, I also watch PHAD with Ivan as well as Eric O. from SMA for the same reasons. Keep up the great work. P.S. I like when Ivan does the “Staten Island Express”. Keith always has some bizarre stuff going on there.
Thanks for doing what you do. I've been in the industry for 22 years and still love it and still love learning new stuff.
At the end you made the most sense . The right tools , knowing how to use them and looking for aftermarket accessories that need positive power ( strategy ) . This shows you the direction to go most of the time . Good diagnose from your side
Keep at Joe , your full of knowledge. Really appreciate your skills !!
I have faith in all of you guys. You all teach us dyi guys. Strategy is everything. No matter what work you do.
Don't stop what your doing it's helping us.
Channels like yours have thought me so much and the one main thing I have learned is know how the system works at least find out what there looking for for the whatever system to work correctly
Me being a DIYer, I would've looked for the biggest rabbit hole then find the highest bridge nearby and jumped in head first into that hole LOL.
That was a great diag attack on that vehicle. I would've been lost because I don't even have a BOB...................YET.
You being a Ford guy, does Ford also offer a junction port for the network like GM does?
Great video man! And thanks for doing something a little different and giving us an opportunity to put our thinking caps on!
Awesome! I may do more like this if people enjoy it.
Joe's Auto Electric please do... it’s a lot of fun and was a definite confidence booster getting the next step right.. makes it more like a real world situation with only symptoms given and we have to start putting pieces together
@@JoesAutoElectric leon over at bodget and leggit has a series running where his viewers suggest the next test. of course he has a vehicle with no time constraints but is is like this one seeing what people suggest and how far can a rabbit hole go lol. kinda amusing the responses. but he is using it as a teaching tool too.
That's awesome. I cannot do that specifically as you said, due to time.
I am an aircraft electrician (avionics tech) so the principals carry over to cars too. Your not the only one who enjoys the diagnostic type of work. I love fixing cars that have gremlins haha.
Sweet! Always wanted to fly a plane ..no one will let me.
what yur doing Joe is educating the public even if what your explaing is not completly understood. I used to be intimidated by the teck in late model cars. there is still some things I wouldnt touch at least I learnd that much which is going to save me in the long run. thanks for what your are doing,
The more you film that "stuff" and explain the process the more your viewers learn. Thank you for filming that stuff!
Very Savoy advice. Thank you! I really liked the part " Don't tap on the dash ".
glad you didn't give up making videos, and glad you do what you call ranting.
I'm a truck driver by trade but still have a Passion for working on cars, I've learned much on diag and direction by watching and listening to what you say and how you approach each issue.
also liked the approach on this video, it made one think, without being hands on, ok here's the problem we're to go from hear and in what direction should i go.
Joe, keep doing what you are doing. Your knowledge and approach to a problem is phenomenal. You take the time to explain your thought process in a logical common sense. Your true followers see you for what you are, and trolls are idiots that are scared to come out of mommies basement 😎. Cheers brother 🍺🍺👍🏻
Thanks bro. You have supported me from the start!
Been wrenching for years but it seems I learn something new Everytime I watch
Thanks
Thanks!!!
It would have taken me a long time to figure a problem like that out. I guess thats what you get for being a chef for years and finally getting back into automotive. Some of your fans have faith in you dude, I mean it's not called Keith's Auto Electric after all
Not yet...
I like your emphasis on having a strategy. I needed that reminder. Thank you for your time and willingness to share.
It is fun, I like this kind of diagnosis than doing a brake job or changing oil. It's like solving a mystery or a puzzle piece.
Scot...nope..not him! lol. Surprised you were able to get the customer to return to a stock radio. I'm sure the price is up there compared to better performing aftermarket ones. Why did the aftermarket one even need the network wire? To maintain steering wheel controls perhaps?
If I recall, the factory headunits just have a constant power feed to them, and they are power switched via the network. The module breaks this out into constant/switched power lines for the aftermarket unit, and will usually double as the door chime as well.
Joe , the haters will hate no matter what you do, its ok, let them hate, us that are trying to learn appreciate you and enjoy your videos, Thank you and we are ready for the next video lol !!!
Yes, it’s fun, but it’s a passion that many don’t understand( my wife calls it an illness). When you can visualize the big picture and know where to go next, that’s something you can’t teach. It’s frustrating that others can’t see what you do but it’s even more frustrating trying to find the words to describe what you’re visualizing. I’m convinced that you either possess the ability or you don’t. Keep up the good work Joe, some of us can follow the schematic that you’re seeing in that ecu on your shoulders.
I sure would like to see more of the hands on where the link is how you set up the scope the wiring diagram showing what was on the channel you unplugged I just learn more by seeing this is not to discourage you the points were good and valid but I don’t know where the connector is or how you set it up
I appreciate the feedback. I will try to be more thorough in that regard. If you have any questions, please ask.
Another good video, and no you don't ramble, your being informative. You have good style and manner as in trying to be polite but at the same time telling it like it is. And, yes this was good subject material. Well done, again.
Thank you.
Great diag and process Joe. Your videos are beneficial to anyone wanting to learn. The keyboard warriors that don't..... well, whatever. I would bet that the issue with the aftermarket radio is the blue module behind which is an easy replacement and usually a reliable product. But going back to factory is one less thing to worry about.
If only customers knew what goes into diagnosing issues lol.
I have experienced these symptoms on my 2500hd 2006 gmc after killing the battery by leaving the key in the on position by accident. After jump starting the truck with another vehicle exact same symptoms. What fixed my issue was disconnecting the batteries for 30 mins. After reconnecting batteries everything was back to normal. My issue is probably completely different but figured I’d comment anyways.
Thanks Joe. What I've learned from experienced techs such as yourself is to check power and grounds, open or shorted circuits and to consider other modules that may take the CAN down. Your process is solid and I appreciate your input.
And that's why I don't use a aftermarket radio harness and or module for power and ground. I would tie in to the speaker system off the factory harness but that's it.
Great video. I’ve used the snap on data bus fault finder EEFF500 like Eric O says not a sponsor. I actually had a Snap on dealer give it to me years ago when I had upgraded my scanner. Didn’t get to use it until 1 year later and it did work. Some techs don’t know about those data connections. Very great info for new techs coming into the field and seasoned techs too. Thanks for sharing. I’m glad you didn’t stop making videos. ✊🏽🇺🇸
Great video Joe. When you are sharing your knowledge and insight, you can’t talk enough. I’ve learned so much from you, Keith, Eric, Ivan, Pauly, Super Mario, SD, Cody, Voltage Drop Diag, etc.. Thanks for taking the time to make these videos. You are making a difference out there-smarter techs and DIYers.
Well done my friend. Great steps and valid points to a diagnos electric issues.
Best advice thanks for this awesome video “have a strategy “ I’m a diy I have 3 boys all driving now so I do what I can on their vehicles and your great teaching from experience videos help tremendously thanks!
I'm trying to learn that's why I watch it thanks for the teaching
Doing a great job man...keep putting your vids out....and trust me when I say I understand the "believe in you comment" bc me Keith or Eric is Techline and I hate when boss says "what did Techline say" it's the bane of my existence 🤬🤬🤬🤬...but I appreciate the content
That's a great diagnostic, and yes, going for aftermarket additions first does make sense. Like a guy I used to know always said; "Yeah, you did it, but you didn't do it right"---aftermarket stuff is often hacked in. But in a case like this, wouldn't it be ok to wire the aftermarket radio straight to the battery with an inline fuse installed for safety, or does the stock radio have to be part of the circuit?
Thank you Joe. Good job. Have a blessed and safe week.
Very informative. A well thought out plan.
I fee like I have a blank check in hand and ready to cash it when you put up a video like this! I need all of this type of training that I can get!! Thanks Joe!
Hey Greg! Thanks a lot for that man. Nice to be able to help.
Joe's Auto Electric More than you know man! 💯
Great video Joe! Keep up the good work. I really like your diagnostic approach thanks for sharing.
Would you ever consider showing local people this type of stuff at your shop? Your explanations are great.
I would, but no one wants to "waste money" with training around here....
Joe's Auto Electric that’s too bad. I’ve been to good classes with Kris Lewis and Jerry truglia but it’s not in a shop environment
Yes, I thought in a shop would be better...but I can't make anyone come...
Joe's Auto Electric that’s too bad. I’ll just have to keep enjoying the videos 👍🏻
You continue to deliver Joe! Great stuff. Also the cuckoo clock brought me back to being a little kid sleeping at my grandparents house lol. I’m gonna be reminiscing all day now.
Ah the cuckoo clock.. I bought that for my wife for Christmas. That thing rocks!
My experience from people that have this kind of problem in my area is it will get very expensive, I have taken care of not so difficult problems that the garage can't fix and for the money, I saved I bought a Pico because I like this kind of work. One example was an old car I got for free because no one could fix a rich condition on the car it is before OBD (Audi 1988) the fix was a shorted o2 sensor wire. If you must pay someone money that can't do the work and find the problem and change parts only and hope for the best you can do it your self and learn along the way, it can also cost you big money but at least you pay for education and next time you know more, sometimes you save a lot of money.
One example is a friend BMW misfire cyl 5 problem they changed ignition coil twice and injector once, a module for injection (not cheap) and a lot of hours on the car did not fix the problem. The next step was to replace all injectors all ignition coils (six cyl) now the problem fixed cars run great. But you must always in life be realistic don't touch anything you don't know anything about you just making a mess and it will get harder to fix the problem. I wish there were people like you Joe around or Eric O Ivan Keith, Dan but you guys is hard to find Santa Clause is easier to find in my area.
I learn a lot watching great troubleshooters on youtube but be careful not everyone is great.
I would much rather diag communication problems than intermittent misfire problems any day. You did as i would
I’ve had Sdm ‘s short out in those trucks and give those same symptoms.pulls voltage down on the modules.great work joe!
Great vid the more you talk the more I learn. I always appreciate your vids knowledge and experience thank you and keep up the great work. 🇺🇸🏁 👍👍
it cool the talking about the startegy of going about the diagnostic.that is the most important part.and i do like you video .and these video let me see other issue on other brand and model .and how you guy go about it .thank
you're lucky you're working on a GM with that junction box. I'm working on a late 90's Chrysler (where all the PCI comm lines come together in the body module) and I've had to resort to cutting wires.
Lots of fun there LOL
good one joe. at one time if ya didnt have a wiring diagram it was no big deal. not so anymore. without a road map you'll be looking for tuskegee and end up in toledo figuratively speaking. can networks are no different. gotta know the layout. and there is absolutely nothing more hair pullin than a diagram with errors or the wong one all together
I am hooked on ur channel... u have tought me so much in solving problems with cars... my buddies have brought me their cars and before I started watchin ur video I'd of never been able to find out whats wrong...the scopes were well worth it ..
So cool! Glad to be of some help.
@@JoesAutoElectric thanks bro... I wish u were closer I'd love to come work with u for a day even for free... this shit has me hooked... found ur channels and watched every video from oldiest to newest and look forward to see ur post...everything is a lesson
Great diagnostic job
Top notch video Joe! Thanks for sharing with us! It’s awesome when you can put a new tool to use.
Great diagnostic process!
Nice video again! What years do GM use the class 2 data lines?
The first thing i do on a vehicle that i cannot communicate with is disconnect the battery and put the battery terminals together for 30 seconds then i go to the data connector and check my high speed data can bus to check the resistance and see if its shorted or open. Then reconnect battery. And anything aftermarket gets disconnected
Great Video thank u sir,i bet sales of Uisolate tool are gonna go up thx to u
Great video Joe.Thanks man 👊
Joe your a righteous dude! Keep up the great work! Be cool Bro!
Joe, first time watching video but in the beginning you said tach worked. Is that any kind of a significant clue? Now I will continue watching. 👍 Joe excellent video and great logic. That gateway connector is a gift. Heard Keith mention it many times but he never really showed it and how to locate and use it. I know he is very busy and can’t walk us through everything but thanks for showing and explaining.👍 Joe is the gateway shown on the schematic? Is it a point where everything is so to speak deadheaded? I mentioned the tach. Moving only to show the computer was being activated. Great video excellent advice and look for the obvious and aftermarket. Thanks Joe ❤️ and Maic Salazar. Taking his ECM COURSE right now great individual very knowledgeable and all should follow and take his course. Just a little plug. I take all advice and courses seriously. Want to learn from ground up. I TALK TO MUCH but want to learn. Don’t stop Joe.
Thank you sir. No, not particularly a clue for me...We knew we were going directly to scan test first. At that point, all that mattered is no comms on anything. If that makes sense.
Joe's Auto Electric thanks Joe just thought it would show the PCM was getting a signal. Thanks for answering I’m just trying to learn and appreciate your response. ❤️
Personally I love this sort of diagnostics. When I came up in the trade I didn't have the opportunity to do trade school 17 years old living on my own funds oprtunity simpley were not there. I learned in the real world. Looking back I would have liked to do trade school. Point being I see guys in other shops look at the money light and load up the parts canon to cut the parts tree down. It is 50/50 they get it and they don't. I never liked white box diagnostic. I follow a method similar to yours I would rather check and re check. I find that clients like knowing what failed but I find they like it more when you can half way explain why it did what it did. As for talking...... Has to happen..... Lots of info and not the easiest to explain. So..... Keep talking... Lol 😂. All I know is for me personally I find that in my area we don't have good diagnosic guys and I love the fact that even though I know I can fix something that there is always another way and that as far as I am concerned you never stop learning. I think to the guys who stop they are bored or what ever I grew up doing this and I still love going to work not a day goes by that I don't learn something. So Mr Joe.... Keep making your videos and keep talking too much. I think there are a lot of people who think the same way I do. Great case study I enjoyed it. I'm off to work😉
Joe quick question, do you think this aftermarket strereo was already causing issues 4 years ago and finally stuff got outta hand with the networks? It's always funny to me how customers/client's claim they've never had issues and also claim they've had it installed years ago.
I do not believe the radio caused any problems before. It simply failed.
I had a trailblazer similar vintage with aftermarket radio. Replaced thermostat had battery disconnected. All done would not start. Took radio off the network all better. Boss thought I was full of it
I appreciate what you do. 👍
What is a gateway is that like a gate for the can lines
Joe excellent video.
You have a great logical mind.
What I woulda done was "ship it" haha, naw, but seriously, there was a time I really would do that but, over the years I decided to get serious and go farther than my automotive contemporaries. More to it then just hangin' brakes 'cause that was boring as hell (dead end style). I started gettin' th' work orders others were avoiding. Paid off in the long run and I'm glad I made that decision because it made me a better tech. Expand them horizons I always say. So, when it's slow and there's that one work order everybody's avoiding, I'll go grab it and learn. Kinda develop my own diagnostic routine so to speak. Been that way ever since.
Hey joe I had a situation like this and found out that the customer jumped the truck backwards . It spiked the radio module . I noticed there was no door chime . So for the shit and giggles I started to pull the radio out and I could smell the problem . Basically that blue box Gives you your chime and ign 12volts and steering wheel controls .. yup it was SMOKED .i got another cause he has to have the tv radio
Very cool man. Thanks for that info too.
Keep it simple stupid this how I was taught observe all check out what needs to be looked at notice anything different that's why they used to tell me kiss with this phrase It's helped me out a long way caught a lot of things and that was a good catch on you very good in observation
We have faith in you Joe, lol I think their just talking just to say something. Great Job thanks
were any fuses blown? I saw a case study where several modules were not communicating, and it turns out a wire was run for a light out of the fuse panel, it shorted and blew the fuse.. well the fuse that it blew, was the fuse that supplied 5 other fuses in the fuse block and one of the fuses in the row that was not getting power, wasnt letting the computer communicate. it was a study keith and Ivan did recently.
No sir, as I said in the video, it was simply a module , the aftermarket one, causing the network failure. No fuses blown.
@@JoesAutoElectric the new rule for vehicles. if it didnt come with it, dont put one in it.. haha
Good rule. LOL
Your vids r greatly appreciated!!
I guess its kind of a new thing the car manufacturers are doing with the fuses.. ive seen one fuse control one or more circuits in the vehicle, but never one fuse that powers up 5 other fuses in the block?
GR8 STRATEGY GREAT DIAG AND GR8 FIX UR THE BEST JOE
Thank you for a awesome video mate big thumbs up 👍
Thank you!
GREAT FUCKING VIDEO! I dont always comment, but I already watch your channel. Some if the best info. On diag. I absolutely love diagnosing problems others have failed to or just cant figure out. It's the best feeling being the go to guy. Please keep make videos. Thank you.
I appreciate that. Stay tuned.
Just watched , Running behind , That is cool , Love learning I want to check out the U-Isolate , Are those ports standard throughout the Industry or just a few manufacturers ?
If you mean the splice pack, this is GM. Not sure which others use it.
@@JoesAutoElectric yeah the splice pack , thanks
Excellent video Joe, I’ve been meaning to pick up the uisolate. AES wave loves thier U’s LoL great stuff tho. Nice job
Great job
Awsome man. How much does that 625 costs? Just average price. Thanks joe
www.aeswave.com/ADS-625-Diagnostic-Scan-Tool-with-10-in-Display-p9680.html
There's a new sheriff in town 😎💪
Great video!
when you install a factory radio does that involve programming or coding of replacement radio?
Yes it does. The radio is locked and needs to be programmed which has been the bane of my existence today.
@@JoesAutoElectric let us know that procedure please, cuz that could get pretty deep
Need the equipment to perform programming. Or call someone who does. Sucks actually.