Aw man, I _loved_ those TF2 random servers. Especially that Mario Kart level you showed made me extremely nostalgic. Later versions even had airships, actual karts running about and a way to get into the skybox. I remember one occasion where the entire team tried to pile into a single kart just for laughs. Or almost everyone went Spy, disguised as one particular player and stacked on top of each other for absolutely no reason. Or that one server where one of the admins always, without fail, started to slap every player repeatedly, making us fly around the map and giggle like idiots. Or how everyone decided that now's a good time to conga from one end of the map to the other. TF2 can be incredibly stupid and that's why I love it.
+Georgeina Strachan well valve servers where never that great with that and community servers like 24/7 hightower where usually better. Also volvo is going to fix casual one step at a time to fix tge map selection, slow matchmaking and everything, for now just play community servers like everyone else
I made my closest and most valued friends through TF2. One of my first steam friends was a guy I pocket medic'd almost daily. We met in a bar in Chicago 5 years later. The feeling when both of us realized who we were was indescribable. We've since gone separate ways, but I'll never forget how that felt
Similar thing happened to me on Rust. Been playing the game since it came out in 2013, right at the time I started to quit TF2. One day I met a guy outside of his base in a server I used to play in a lot; we played that wipe together and exchanged Steam contacts to play the next one. Been playing with him ever since then, sporadically between windows of opportunity amidst our studies and jobs. In late 2021 we finally met in São Paulo and cruised through downtown's bars and clubs. What's even funnier is that because of the nature of Rust's development along the years, I tend to remember moments in our friendship in reference to the game's history, keeping track of time by recollecting our wipes and playthroughs in a specific version of the game. It's crazy to see how video-games that appeal to this sort of social aspect, like TF2 and Rust, blends the real sensible world of your life with the tangent virtual one in a way that feels natural and relatable and that offers you a meaningful attachment to. And I'm not gonna lie, when Overwatch came out I did kinda take the role of the "staunch TF2 devotee nuthead", yelling shit like "they just put skin-tight arses and tits to resell TF2", but I did end up playing a lot of this game with that same friend and cannot remember not a single match in detail, be it for it's crazy clutch moments, hilarious bits, absurd players, etc. Just nothing. And I played it for years... These subtle changes in the way we use and adapt with the internet and it's many branching forms scares the shit out of me.
Yeah, I always loved the idea of a "digital home". It's very calming to be in a somewhat controllable and friendly environment, even if said environment isn't exactly real. I think it's the main appeal of "virtual world" games.
One of the reasons why MMO's are so popular. People dont know you too well and you can just fuck around with people, do random things, annoy others, go through hard content, do housing stuff and so on. MMO's used to be something to me that I would always find peace in. Just log in, see who is online, ask whats up and start planning the activities for the day within the game. Too bad most mmo's like FFXIV became total betrayals to those who played it at the starting times and everyone I know stopped playing the games. Doesnt take a big shitty move from the devs to drive away regular customers for good.
+no name I used to be a lot like you, and was mostly skeptical about "social games", but trust me, they exist and can be very fun. The best games for communities like the ones Errant talks about are I think the ones that bring people together through great cooperative gameplay, a good example would be the zombie horde mode servers in Chivalry.
Also the games where you have to communicate a lot anyway. I found a bunch of nice people playing Rainbow Six Siege and Squad. And even on the Tactical Gamer Server in Battlefield 4. And this kind of social gaming is pretty much the best experience there is tbh.
I am totally and completely in agreement with you, Errant. Back in something like 2008-2010, I was a regular on an achievement server. The map had basically no objectives, no ending, no winners. It just had a big spawn room with a bunch of bots, and an outside world that people regularly did basically nothing. For all intensive purposes, it wasn't a proper TF2 map at all. But I stuck around. I chatted with other players. I came back, and became a regular. I came back because I was able to talk with people. I was able to show off my new hats and weapons. Talk about a new update that valve made recently. I met people that I still call friends to this very day. You put it perfectly, it was a Home. Sadly, that's long gone now.
Same. I was a regular on a trade server (before it was all about spreadsheets and speculating the market), and I met a friend there. After a year or two of talking to this guy, he started a competitive team and invited me, and that's where I met most of my online friends who I still talk to. I love the culture of TF2. I love the people. I love the personality, and I love the game, but unfortunately, I feel like Overwatch is just better. It's super fun to play with my friends and all, but I don't get to meet any new people or razz players in server chat. The culture is completely different. Not that that's Blizzard's fault or an error in design or anything like that.
It's kinda wrong. overwatch AND tf2 can be fast paced games. The real problem is how servers are handled, there is no matchmaking in tf2. He basically said "tf2 is casual, but overwatch is competitive" this has nothing to do with the game mechanics, but literally the servers. Valve is (finally) being forced by the success of overwatch to make tf2 competitive as well. Finding good competitive matches in tf2 is pretty hard, when matchmaking is fixed, it will finally offer more game modes for different players.
I used to play on TF2 Mario Kart server almost every day. It was an absolute blast. Constantly filled with the same people doing dumb shit whilst talking about dumb stuff.
I miss that as well, but for Jedi Outcast rather than TF2. Player Servers were an incredible period. They are also what gave me the motivation to learn to type at reasonable speeds.
in retrospect calling overwatch's lootbox and credit system "less exploitative" feels dirty and silly, and also discounts the way players could use the steam community market or trading to bypass needing to unbox for anything
@@zacqonosokay and? "Person chose to not talk about something directly related to the argument that completely changes the argument" is not very valid lol. But thanks for the tip I guess next time someone brings up "but what about this thing that you completely ignored" I can just say "oh I wasn't talking about that"
The presence of the Community Market is its own breed of exploitation. PeopleMakeGames put out a good video recently on the topic, and while they primarily focused on CS:GO’s culture of gambling sites, many of the same issues absolutely exist for TF2.
Another relevant point is that by locking players into proprietary servers, the game will be permanently dead the instant the developers shut down the servers. That is really worrisome.
I share that concern. People tend to forget about it because it's not an issue any time soon. Blizzard, I think, has a good (though not perfect) track record in this regard, so people can take some comfort in that. It's when other publishers follow the trend but don't follow through. I think every game should have an end-of-life plan in place -- remove DRM, design in such a way that you can patch the game and it'll still work without servers.
Don't worry fam, Blizzard is still releasing updates for Warcraft 2 and it's 20 years old and sold nowhere near as well as Overwatch. You don't need to worry about the servers going down any time soon :)
I feel like people never talk about the voice channel system in Overwatch, but I think it has a huge impact in making the game feel less social. When you form a party, you're all put in party channel. When you join a match, you stay in party channel instead of joining team channel. All teammates not in your party cannot hear you, and you cannot hear them. You can manually change to team channel, but people rarely do. So in the end you only verbally communicate with your party and not the rest of your team. Unless you're playing by yourself and get matched with others playing by themselves, you basically don't meet new people.
Seriously? Haven't played Overwatch but that's lonesome. In my old TF2 community servers, server wide team talk is switched on, making it a nice party of chatter. (And hilarious when spies speak while disguised)
Assuming anybody actually uses the team channel. One of my big frustrations with Overwatch is the dearth of chatter, which makes it hard to coordinate. This is a killer for a game that is supposed to be "team based." The success of a match feels like it depends a lot more on luck ("Did you get some good players on the team?") than the ability to coordinate and work together.
Gotta say i really hate the lack of communication in Overwatch. Games like Dota 2 really let you talk better with teammates, and i've met plenty of people i play online with through Dota 2 that way.
+Di0 guys... as a fan of both TF2 and blizzard as a whole (ive been playing their games since sc broodwar lol so im very devoted) but guys, overwatch is blizz's first FPS, not to mention its been released only for a few months. the developers will not fail anybody as long as there is a playerbase, and I can say that with confidence and promise. ive stuck with blizzards team for quite a while, and I have almost 90% faith in them.
Man, I shut voice chat off as soon as I booted up the game for the first time. I already have people cursing and berating others in the text chat, and I certainly do not need to hear that shit spoken as well.
i htink the old system was kinda like you going to a bar on a regular occasion you see the usuals and the random ones and so on. With matchmaking its more lika a busy commuter train. A lot of different people that may have some similarity based on the destination of the train but you don't really interact with them and rarely see one person twice.
Tbh though, in Overwatch I VERY frequently bump into the same people more than once. It may be due to the fact that I spend most of my time playing and the probability of meeting other people who do the same multiple times increases as a result.
I'd also say the analogy extends to what you actually do in the game. With dedicated servers you would either connect in to your local server or explore random new servers and try to fit in with the other types of people there to get along with them, whether they were serious, trolling or jokey you could end up not playing to win at all or goofing off with weird class/items/behaviour which could evolve into it's own server wide silliness (conga/dance/taunt/spycrab party). With matchmaking everyone is super focused on winning even in quickplay casual modes, because when the game is over most players will leave and never see each other again or are already playing in a party or don't want to wait around listening to a raging team if they loose. I personally find almost no fun from playing so competitively, besides what do you get for your efforts, a badge and a rank that nobody really cares about except those ragers? Overwatch is an impeccably designed game, but even the best games become boring and stressful after hours and hours of play with strict limited rules and an overly competitive player base. They have tried to sort this with the custom game lobbies but the focus is on unlocking lootboxes so people stick to the "real" gamemodes.
This makes me sad that I never experienced TF2 during it's "prime", where in-game communities developed like that. It kind of reminds me of how I wish I was born early enough to experience the internet in the high time of newgrounds and albinoblacksheep, where the new capabilities to create and share one's own content to everybody else within a smaller circle created a community that fostered some of the internet's most famous and beloved animations and games, giving rise to new indie game developers and content creators through a new, unique, and individualistic idea of community. The shift we see from Overwatch's differences and TF2's changes parallels that of how online content was streamlined into what it is today. Now we no longer see small communities of gamers, animators, and audiences, but large networks and unreachable RUclips gods with sponsorships from large companies. In the same way, we see smaller gaming communities being pushed away as multiplayer games are designed with a competitive air about them. Ultimately, I think this is all a result of these platforms becoming more and more mainstream. The internet is a very different place from how it used to be, and small communities are no longer what is emphasized by its users. As games are drifting more into the popular culture, their designs are attempting to appeal to the masses, and losing the small community setting. Just as RUclips is becoming more similar to television, competitive games are becoming more akin to competitive sports (or something like that.) I don't know if I'm making huge oversights, but it's two in the morning and I thought of most of this as I was writing, so hopefully my ideas make sense to some degree (And hopefully somebody will actually read this giant wall of text :P )
You're exactly right. This is especially apparent in MMOs too. They've become less community and social oriented in favor of quick, short bursts of play.
This is one of my biggest issues with Overwatch. I want to be able to play a certain map or game mode over and over. I want to play with a community and not randoms. I want loadouts, cosmetics, and other things to mean more than being a random pre-approved thing that every single other player in the game will own and equip once they play enough rounds to unlock it or find it randomly in a loot box.
The former stuff can be done through a community outside the game, for setting up custom matches. Not as convenient as just having servers, but it does call back to the gaming forums with a specific community and potentially their own miniature ladder.
For me, this (and my job), are what keeps me from spending longer play sessions in Overwatch. I've never really "bonded" with anyone like I did in TF2 or CS where I would just find really good synergy with a teammate or even enemy that led us to becoming actual friends in the future. I've never stumbled in on a close-knit or niche community that I just had to learn more about and spend more time immersing myself in. I just... play a couple matches and hope I can unlock one of the detailed skins. None of that is really bad, but it's definitely different which is all I think he was trying to say with this piece anyway. It's a little more sterile of an experience.... probably for the better but sterile nonetheless.
The game itself isnt high quality enough (just reminding you of those hitboxes which are "working as intended") to exist long term as it is, it could have benefited from a more social aspect to it. I want to play on those few servers where certain people frequent along with some random folk that I might even dislike. I want to know the people to a degree, but I dont want it to become a circlejerk like a custom game mode would be. That would require you to know the people to begin with in one way or another. heck, some of my fondest memories with games were meeting certain people on games with community servers. Met some of my best friends in older battlefield games, went to the same few servers that rotated all maps on conquest and kept bumping into a few people there, eventually we started squading up and like 6 years later we are still the best of friends. With these modern stupid one click matchmaking things, people will miss that and will become even more socially retarded online. People are shy enough in games as it is, afraid to use their mics, say things in the chats and so on. This will only make that stronger. Its funny how people have been getting less and less social in online games in general. Played online strategy, fps and mmo's all my life and I've noticed this happen slowly, but surely. Simply because games enable it. There was a time when I was too afraid to ask around for a group in an MMO, eventually with the help of a friend I grew a pair and I did cobble together a group and we cleared a dungeon which was something to remember. Nowadays even MMO's offer those one click matchmakings, people dont even say hi to eachother anymore. some "roleplaying games".
As somebody who played an obscene amounts of TF2 several years ago, this episode really seems to hit the nail on the head. The atmosphere in Overwatch is just so much more rigid and demanding you do what you're supposed to do, rather then TF2's laid-back approach.
While I agree with pretty much everything, I gotta disagree with this : 10:21 After the recent TF2 update hit, and we got the Casual matchmaking and the Competitive matchmaking, the demand for Good Community servers has increased by a lot. This is due to the fact that the original public games hosted by valve arent there anymore (since they got substitued by the previously mentioned matchmaking), creating a lot of demand for servers in which you can just enter with a click and have nearly 0 commitment. This happens because most of the TF2 playerbase has a huge "hop-in, play for some minutes, leave" mentality. Casual Matchmaking, while creating way more entertaining and balanced matches (most of the time), creates an atmosphere where, unlike in the old valve pubs, most players want to win and commit more than usual. So my point is, TF2 now will have 3 types of servers (excluding non-vanilla TF2 servers) : Competitive matchmaking (Official servers), for players looking for a serious 6v6 match under a competitive scenario. Casual matchmaking (Official servers), for players looking for a public and casual 12v12 game where the players, that can enter and leave when they please, will usually attempt coordination, teamplaying and commitment. And lastly the community servers, for those who like the old TF2 where, as you said, you knew 33% of the server whenever you joined, and you feel like you're a part of something.
VARIOUS videos I only post time stamps on eXtv channel, and he hasnt post a TF2 cast video in a long time, sadly enough. I appreciate you recognising me tho.
TF2 will likely gain a 9v9 mode soon enough, its greyed out, however it IS an option in the matchmaking menu. So likely there will be 4 server types for TF2, the ones you explained and then a 9v9 setup that might take on a more HL like role, which would be good, since it means an easier time for anyone to get into comp styled TF2. I've also played overwatch some, and though my pc can't run it atm due to low fps issues, I can say it is indeed what is explained in the video. A very service like shooter, thats fun to play with a preset group.
I was hoping they would do something like this since the new update came. I welcome the more rigid matchmaking, but there are times when I want casual games with no commitments where I can jump in and derp around as a shotgun heavy or demoknight, it's the goofy, laid-back game we all fell in love with
Love this, and I started playing TF2 almost 4 years ago and the community aspect was still there, and still is, it's just continually gotten smaller as people migrated away, which at the same time has made the community tighter.
I just wish Blizzard wasn't so full of themselves due to their success. The Wow fans who maintained a vanilla server for over 800,000 subscribers for free got put down because apparently it's not what people want... and they were trying so hard to shill a game that has been loosing it's subscriber base since Wrath of the Lich King. I can't see them acting any different once overwatch gets as old ad wow. Once Blizzard stops caring about something they don't let the people that do direct where they need to go and it hurts them in the long run.
Same, blizzard will NEVER improve a game drastically until its on its deathbed. Similar to what happened with diablo3. A shitty game still, but they did something to it atleast. Overwatch is a mess and they just keep jerking themselves off to the numbers of people who bought the game, how popular its on the internet and so on. "yeah we are transparent and we listen to community feedback" *proceeds to release the absolute worst, sorry excuse of a ranked mode to overwatch*
+ProjectiluvOP I should probably be making the distinction between the devs and their superiors because the one good thing about Overwatch right now is the forum interaction in the development process.
Henny Zhi Diablo is a game which Blizzard knows well about it, so if 3rd one is shit, it's understandable that they screwed it up, but in case of Overwatch, it's different. This is their 1st FPS game they have ever created, so devs can get away with that mess they've made, since it's something unknown for them and so far for a 1st FPS game, it's good.
I love you. You got it spot on: I've made genuine, good friends from and in TF2 and I wasn't even playing during the fabled Golden years (I bought the game in the Orange Box something like 2 days after it went free to play) and for that I owe it a huge debt. A community server, that is sadly now gone, that I frequented felt exactly like a social club; regulars, in jokes, friendly atmospheres and a lot of support for custom maps (when I first joined exclusively custom maps). It was never big, but like a small home can be cozy it was extremely comfortable and a large part of the reason I've held off buying Overwatch has to do with that total lack of support for such communities, I've spent ~$100 in TF2 over 1500 hours and every cent was rewarded, not only by the game, but also by the community that it created, while Overwatch wants me to pay for a full priced game with no support for the social aspect that kept, and keeps, me playing TF2. Great video, spot on points, bravo, TF2 is a damn hard game to cover in commentary like this.
This video just hit me straight in the heart. Now I'm reminiscent of the thousands hours spent on my classic hangout servers in TF2 circa 2010-2013, the friends I knew, the stupid pointless conversations we held, the fun we had. Yes, I've been playing Overwatch recently and while it does have the gameplay charm of mid-early TF2 (something that I appreciate greatly), the socializing aspect is nowhere comparable to getting to know the regulars of a server, making friends and having a laugh, much like the bar comparison you mentioned. Finding this video on my reccommended list was one of the most accurate choices by RUclips lately. Subscribed.
I know what you mean man. I play on a private runescape server and while the game is extremely outdated. (early 2000s mmo). the community is nice. It's a group of people that I know and the community is always fluctuating. New people join, old people retire, etc... I think overwatch could easily implement the option for user servers / rooms. I'm sure most people would stick with automatic matchmaking but the custom rooms could potential help form small communities. (like an ANIME room, or Korean R&B room)
The last time I experienced something like that was in gmod's "Trouble in Terrorist Town" (2012) and I felt that the future of this type of social interaction (against sterilised matchmaking) is in games that are trying to make communication in the game harder (your friend secretly became your enemy; your friend died somewhere when you are talked to him; you both have different look of the level and you should to understand these differences together, etc.) to make it more engaging.
I am so happy Overwatch doesn't have hats and three billion alt weapon skins. That kind of economy trading meta-game and rare item wankery was cancer in TF2 and CSGO and deserves to be left there. That being said, I do mourn the loss of community servers. While I'm glad there's a strong commitment by Blizzard to have a core vanilla game that's always supported, the community-created maps and mods in Source games were always a fun distraction and I wish there was a parallel to that in Overwatch.
it's weird to come back to a video that's really prescient about the direction that games ended up going in the intervening years, and see several comments fanboying about TF2 while largely missing the point that was originally being made overwatch being the subject matter, and the bad direction that game went, don't ultimately matter to what was being (correctly) claimed here: that the days of casual meandering online spaces in shooters was being sunset in favor of the ultra-focused matchmaking format where there's no room for building a community within the game itself man I love TF2 and it meant a lot to me growing up, but there are some really diehard players who get embarrassingly precious about the culture of the time that also died out with those community spaces. lower interaction with strangers and higher interaction with the mechanics of the game is part of why we've seen the rise of matchmaking systems, and saying "I miss the TF2 servers where I could shout slurs at people" is remarkably dense to that reality
I've never played TF2, so I can't compare, but i've already made friends in Overwatch! On multiple occasions, someone's tag has a reference I get or they have a really good attitude, then we add each other as friends! Some of them I share my blog with and we set up times to play together, it's a blast!
I haven't made any friends on Overwatch yet, but I have definitely had some pretty fun chats with teammates, sometimes even opponents! I also haven't played TF2 in years, but when I did I never made any friends there either...So maybe the problem is just me, but I think there's definitely room to socialize in Overwatch, even with how fast paced the game is.
That's very nice, although I have to agree with campster on this. Just some weeks ago I tried quake live and people actually knew each others and talked about their lives while. I heard all of it and I wanted to be part of it. On the opposite side, if I heard someone speaking too much in overwatch I'd feel a bit annoyed
Your experience seems to be completely different from my own. The game feels isolating to me. You just play the objectives. The only time you care about the other people is when they aren't working with the rest. Overwatch is about the match, and the post-game stuff shows it.
It isn't the same as having that being merged with the play. On tf2 I went on a server, met new people, and was able to dick around with the people I already knew on maps that could go on forever where we can just shoot the shit.
I don't feel that Overwatch is "more inclusive". Stuff like that gets thrown around all the time... but from my experience, it's the exact opposite. In Overwatch, you get random people that has zero incentive to help you or even reach a basic level of friendly. You're all just there for the moment and in a round or two you'll all move on to new groups of people to play with. I've put in more hours in TF2 than I'd ever admit and despite that I've never been "harassed" like I have in Overwatch. Every other round has someone yelling about "you're not playing your class correctly" or the classics like "get cancer". Now I'm not one who takes any of that kind of thing seriously but I really don't get how an argument can be made that OW is the more "inclusive" of the two. Nothing in the game (except the threat of reports and bans) incentivises people to behave well against one another. Having regulars and people who can help set the tone of a server makes much more welcoming experience than OW's "harass and move on" setup. I love the game but the "community" a whole is just awful.
Interesting. Trying to police the whole community at once, globally, to some compromise standard, vs policing one community on a server according to a local standard that may be very different to somewhere else.
At first I wasn't sure where you were going with this, but I actually really liked this video. It puts words to a feeling I've been having for a long time. Very well done.
This put the finger on one of the things keeping me from getting into Overwatch. When the LFG tool was introduced to WoW it destroyed an important layer of realm community building, and my experience in that game changed permanently for the worse. The matchmaking in Overwatch is an extension of that mentality, and just like WoW's LFG, half the time I feel like I'm playing completely alone even when I'm constantly interacting with other people. I find I'd rather just go back to 1 player games at that point.
I occasionally come across your videos and I've got to say that this one is really fucking good, roused a lot of memories and made me feel like some of these observations weren't just my own fabrication. Keep up the good work
This is my first video from your channel and I must say this is a very good comparison video, I love both games but they do share specific differences that I both like and dislike. Keep up with the videos man this was great!
The quality of these videos is through the roof........and I know that part of that comes from the long turnover; they're made when Errant feels inspired, and he takes his time. But I've seen almost all of them twice now, and I want MORE dammit =P
I think that informs a lot of their decision making, though I don't think "removing a sense of community" was ever an explicit goal. Blizzard's recent design philosophy for StarCraft II, Hearthstone, Heroes of the Storm, and now Overwatch all follows a similar pattern - design to be easily accessible so that both newbies and casual spectators can enjoy watching what's going on by providing simple, clear roles for each unit/player, but provide enough emergent depth that the resulting game is highly skill-driven and can be played on pro-circuits. And yeah, I think the desire to make the game pro-friendly impacted the design of things like its matchmaking and server selection, as well as how wacky goofy your costumes can be. The result is that Overwatch is way, _way_ easier to turn into a pro game (TF2 pro has always felt like trying to make pro Smash Bros, insofar as so many items and playstyles are restricted it's very "Final Destination No Items Fox Only™"). But it also means that the game isn't interested in catering to a mid-level player just looking to unwind at the end of the day, and that's where TF2 excelled.
I'd think that Overwatch was designed as the "call of duty alternative", this is why it's also so successful... and that's where the lack of mid level players is lacking (call of duty is built around people already knowing the game playing at the game, with little to no care to new comers)
Blizzard was definitely pushing Overwatch onto the e-sport scene from the start, which is why they enforced uniformity so much. By removing community servers and 24-player matches, it ensures that casual players can transition smoothly to competitive, which is what TF2 struggles with.
I'd say that Overwatch is Blizzard's take on creating a 'MOBA shooter'; it takes the idea of abilities per character and streamlined, formulated gameplay sequence to the FPS genre. Since most similar games like DotA, LoL, HotS, etc. are competitve in the genre's nature, Overwatch inherited it thus it's easy to target the competitve scene.
I believe that community servers are actually going to GROW because of the removal of quickplay. I took the time to actually find a server that now I am a regular in because of the Meet your Match update
"TF2 tempts you to gamble - to get exclusive, rare items. Overwatch just offers you to speed up the unlocks for a price. It's stupid, but... it doesn't feel manipulative". Oof. Sadly a quote that just didn't get to age well.
They're less common but those community servers where you get to know everyone still exist in TF2 and the rest of valve games with custom servers, hell probably with all games with custom servers lol. I agree with you though I do wish more games would let people do it that way.
Which is why quake 3 still has servers with communities decades old still going strong and never quitting.. While quake live loses players daily. Same with unreal tournament 99.
Actually the main reason why Quake Live is losing players is because of Bethesda's retarded idea to make it Steam exclusive AND force you to pay it one to play the game.
I think it's funny that Overwatch included sprays, but seems to completely miss the point of what made sprays fun... The fun part was that you could have custom sprays that could literally be any image you found online or even made yourself. This meant you had some sense of individuality. Pre-made sprays that you unlock simply misses the point completely. Another thing I find weird is the very limited emote wheel... In TF2 you had tons of emotes and you could almost have entire conversations with another players through emotes only. In Overwatch there isn't even a way to make your character say "no" for some reason.... A simply "yes" and "no" is the MINIMUM I expect from any game trying to do this kind of thing.
The recent TF2 update removed the quickplay menu which a _lot_ of people are very unhappy about. Quickplay was a great way to join random Valve pubs and/or community made servers, but it's pretty much gone now. Valve has been listening to community feedback fairly well for the new matchmaking system so far but nothing's been said about returning quickplay. Hopefully they'll listen and bring back what made up a good portion of TF2's 'freedom', if that's the correct word.
Well Valve servers just no longer exist outside of casual servers so it is unlikely they will return to the quickplay method. But tbh the quickplay method was pretty bad as half the time it would slap you into a server with few or no people playing on it because they are simply trying to fill the void in their servers. With community servers still running, I don't see a reason for them to backtrack on this change
I think that they are trying to give the old job that Pubs had to Community servers. Casual Matchmaking is basically a mix between Comp and Pubs, which I kinda like.
This was a very interesting and unique approach to the discussion of "Overwatch vs. TF2", and as usual it was well argued and thought provoking. As someone who never played TF2 and is excited to get Overwatch, it put things in a light that almost makes me nostalgic for a game I never even played!
Quite moving in a nostalgic sense, I liked how you started the video with the TF2 soundtrack and ended it with the overwatch soundtrack...I am sure there is a meaning in that ^^
Oh my god, you nailed exactly why I've been feeling more nostalgic for TF2 after playing a bunch of Overwatch. So much of OW's pacing seems so insanely fast, and each player matters so much that there is next to no down-time. And all of the stuff you said about the user-managed servers, I hate having to play with all these randos, I want to frequent specific communities :(
Very interesting video I missed back in the day, though some stuff seems silly in hindsight and some I think I would've found silly even back when this video was new
i think that oddly enough my personal "digital home" is warframe its the place im comfortable with i have the clanmates and other friends who i know and play with often we have our different daily/weekly grind traditions this person is our trinity or our nova and much like tf2's hats theres always a sense of expression fashionframe is important to a lot of us to show off how we look (whether its sleek, elegant, or absolutely garish) and the other part i love is that even if i play with randoms theres a sense of a larger community because it has an overwhelmingly friendly playerbase
I honestly hate the recent trend of games becoming more "safe" and "streamlined". Take Halo, for instance. Ever since 343 took control, the custom games options have become more and more restrictive, whereas before they got more expansive with each release. Why is this? Games are becoming the equivalent of a Macbook. Someone new to games will probably appreciate the apparent polish as opposed to how games looked in the past, but anyone who has actually been playing games can see it's becoming more difficult to do things your own way. They can't have the system be too complex, because then new people would be lost. And they have to lock everything in place, otherwise new people might accidentally mess something up. The only way to maintain the pretty polished thing they created is to keep an iron grip on everything. So you're right when you say that's just the trend games are going in right now, but I'd say it's a shitty trend and we should be doing anything we can to change it. But you're much more sold on the idea of games being a "safe and inclusive space" by engineered design, so you probably won't.
Sad part is, even Paradox games are becoming more... "casualized". Not that they're casual per se, just that a lot of effort is being made to make them appeal to slightly more mainstream audiences rather than to just make the games better. Imagine if HoI4 had been a proper sequel to HoI3, or if Stellaris had been a proper grand strategy with interesting history and lore for distinct entities in a sci-fi setting instead of a slightly expanded galactic civilizations 2. Not that what we got was *bad*, and Paradox is still good on valuing putting the quality of the game over anything else in things like their release schedules ("it's done when it's done" doesn't really make casuals happy), I'm worried they may be starting to go the same direction as much of the rest of the industry. Let's hope they don't. I probably have more time logged in EU3 than any other game, I know they can do good shit.
***** Honestly if they just removed sprint Halo 5's gameplay would be perfect. I like smartscope, clamber, and ground pound, but sprint has always been a bad idea in Halo and every new game with it shows that more and more. And yeah the forge is great. Which is what makes the custom games options so strange. Apart from a few specific things, not only have they not added options, they've scaled them back.
KenjiKusanagi I'm not sure I understand your comment. TF2 has free item drops, including both randomized crates and direct cosmetics/weapons for free. Additionally, if there is a specific item you want, you don't have to just buy randomized crates and hope you get them, you can simply buy the specific weapon for a few pennies... optionally... Even further, there is a crafting system to build an item you want out of your duplicates, and of course the market, with which you can simply sell your duplicates. So what are you trying to say? I'm not sure if you're criticizing Overwatch for its subpar system, or if you're, for some reason, trying to imply that it's better in some way.
Zedek True that the TF2 has a item drop, but it's very limited to weapons,hats and crates. You no longer can get the name/description tag, paint. Also it's rare to get a hat.
KenjiKusanagi Oh no, I'm stuck getting much more meaningful weapons, rather than sprays, and hats have a rarity; completely unlike anything in Overwatch, and it's terrible how I can optionally purchase the specific item I want /s Alright, you have a nice day.
This is so well-observed. I've played both games for hundreds of hours, and I agree with you basically every point. My personal opinion is that the trade-off has been worthwhile, especially as I get older and have less time to spend on in-game downtime, and as I begin to value density and quality of entertainment over the looser, more relaxed, more expressive style of a game like TF2. As an example, I wasted waaaaay too many hours on Orange 3CP as a kid, and I'm almost glad that Overwatch won't LET me do that again, even if I wanted to.
The reason why characters/skins are not nearly as customizable in overwatch is because you're playing a character with a unique story and background that exists within the game's rich lore. Reaper only will wear outfits that reaper would wear, and you cannot dress mercy up in d.va's skin tight jumpsuit because it's just not her style. But that makes it awesome because when you play as your favorite hero, you are in effect cosplaying as them, which is fundamentally different from trying to turn a class into a representation of yourself. In terms of matchmaking, Blizzard straight up copied the systems that exist in the current successful e-sports like league of legends and counter strike go. That being said, they recently announced custom games will be given a browser so that you can find public community game modes, which is awesome. But they definitely put competitive matchmaking over community because they wanted to make an e-sport, which they really succeeded in a way tf2 hasn't. Also the developer-community relationship is incredible to the point where it's literally touching.
Excellent video. I remember playing on 3-4 of my favorite TF2 servers exclusively almost every week from 2007-11. When Valve added silly overpowered nonsense into the game, we would just ban it from the server (ex: Dead Ringer at launch, mini-sentries at launch, etc). We also had random crits turned off in all of them. As a result, very few people raged and everyone became friends very quickly. We'd try funny team comps, ridiculous steamrolls, have spray/taunt parties, go all-class teams when a new class update came out, try out all the cool and weird community maps, and overall just have a good time. I can't explain how relaxing it felt after a long day of classes in college to just kick back with a beer and play on my favorite servers late into the night. Everyone was pretty good at the game too. The skill levels in the server were pretty damn high. I miss those days. I'm having an absolute blast with Overwatch right now, but I know exactly what you mean by this game not having the potential to create communities of like-minded players. It's a lot of fun, but at the same time, if I don't find that "digital home" that I love (as you put), I don't know how long I see myself playing it before I eventually get bored of the core gameplay. :/
I miss my old TF2 servers. Heading home after school to play you see and chat with familiar people day after day. Learnt peoples quirky playstyles and you recognized peoples favourite outfits. Long conversations over multiple maps, admins changing the map to fun dysfunctional maps like Wacky Races, all heavy/pyro/spy fights, peace heavy, pyro-sharks etc. It was glorious.
That community aspect is the main reason I have a love/hate relationship with 4chan's /vg/ communities. Some of the people are right bastards but really, I can't get that community feeling anywhere else.
Man, your videos are usually incredible, but I really enjoyed the ideias you've tried to bring in this video in particular! I think you are walking just the right path as a critic when you discuss the feelings of community, the potencial to make friends, the capacity to have deep and intimate experiences while playing that a certain game offers. When talking about politics in game you should also look at this aspect of gaming in particular. Questioning "How does this game bring us together and allows to know each other in a shallow or deep personal level." Congrats, dude...
now hold on, at 9:30 you claim that those /b/ level servers are a problem, I'd say they're more of a feature, like the custom gamemodes (prop hunt, deathrun, vs Saxton Hale, surf_) they're a place to 'unwind' as it were. Someplace to go and mess around when you're tired of pushing the same cart down the same track. Almost all of them have alltalk(everyone hears you, not just your team) which further encourages player interaction. but that's just like, my opinion, man
I'm excited to see what the upcoming inclusion of custom game servers to Overwatch will be like. I used to play TF2 and getting to know the people you play with is the main thing i miss about it. Hopefully something like that will be possible in Overwatch in the future.
About the crates; I think its leas bad than other crates due to the fact that its user made content, and the users who get their items are payed by Valve, so its not like valve is just making all the money. The people who play the game get money too.
could not agree more. I never played TF but I remember meeting people playing on custom Unreal Tournament servers, there was a sense of community that just does not exist in modern shooters. I really miss those days...
Seriously great video! You hit the nail on the head with how much of a difference these two games have, even with how similar they are. Its kind of a shame the TF2 switched pace with Overwatch knocking on their door. I played TF2 since orange box, and the sub-communities made from serious to silly servers is a beautiful thing. I will give the new overwatch style that TF2 embraced a shot, because a couple years back, its exactly what I wanted. But what I will remember the game for are the hours spent mic spamming music for a whole server with everyone dancing and genuinely having a great time. Hats for life
I can imagine while everyone is using their sprays and smashing their head against the wall in the startup phase you're sitting in the corner having an epiphany.
my 'hurfstone' joke aside this is another fantastic upload from you and one of the biggest reasons i have a problem playing most new online game these days. i miss the days of hopping on to sven coop or tsrp severs in halflife mods and making friends with what in most new games would just be randos to shoot.
I never really got to experience this sense of regularly visiting one community server when I started playing TF2, but now Creators.TF is bringing back an experience that can only be this felling
The nostalgia got touched with the tf2 servers and that final line, how good were those messy and stupid vsh and deathrun matches we had in this place we'd hang out. As a tf2 player who loves the game, even tho the path it has took with the hats stuff, and hasn't yet played Overwatch, thanks for the good old memories.
Yes... There seems to be a shift in video games over time to focus more on the game(!) than simply goofing off with other people. I really don't know if i would say that's a good or a bad thing. On one hand it seems completely reasonable that a game should be about the game, because that's the bloody point of a game, isn't it? It's not designed per se for you to meet new friends. But that sounds kind of sad. Cause on the other hand there is a big social aspect to multiplayer games, and maybe it is a better idea to nurture that aspect as best you can. I really don't know what the best solution might be, though i know i would personally love to see some custom game modes or maps in Overwatch. Some guy mentioned an "Overwatch randomizer" where you get a random weapon and abilities every time you spawn. That would be amazing. I think an important difference in regards to having a favourite server is that Overwatch is only a 6v6 game whereas TF2 was 12v12 (or possibly 16v16 on custom servers). You could just fit more people. So maybe even the basic game design limits the potential for social spaces like that.
Interesting point, and also summarizes my TF2 experience pretty nicely - spent ~2 years going to 2 or 3 servers every evening where I knew everybody. Great times :)
I think the difference is a shift in were people socialise. Community servers used to be a place for hanging around and meeting people but has now been replaced by VOIP programs, such as raidcall, discord, skype, mumble, teamspeak and so on. These fill role of both finding new players to play with (larger VOIP servers house PUGs and such) and the ability to hang out with friends in a digital space. I don't think we lost the social interaction in games, It just moved.
The moving away from private run servers that build community, to the Locked down matchmaking is representative of the fact that gaming is now, more than ever, "Mainstream." The average public isn't looking for a place to go; they're looking for a thing to do. Having to track down a server that you can actually enjoy and be part of a community is one extra step that the average consumer just doesn't want to put up with. Great video and keep up the good work.
Oh man, this talk about joining a server where you know most of the people really hits me hard, mostly since a community i was a part of for a good part of 4 years fell apart recently. With so many people moving to overwatch or just stopping TF2 it just kinda hurts to think about it, but i'll always remember those carefree days where i could jump on my favuorite server and talk shit sithmy mates, it may not seem like much but sitting here and reminissing about that time really puts a heavy feeling in my chest.
This video reminded a lot of older WoW, since back in the day before LFR and cross realms there used to be much more of a community feel with the regulars in trade chat and the guilds everyone recognized. When you were talking about the nostalgia of older TF2 it really made me miss the days that have long since passed in favor of accessibility to the core gameplay. It's almost a shame though since those older experiences were some of the times that made me most invested in a game and yet we definitely don't see that style of game experience as much.
I was a pro-player Spy in the peak of Team Fortress 2. I had been playing in the UGC and dedicated over 1,000 hours of game time as the Spy class in the game. I got to play against some of the best Spy players in the world. I met an awful lot of friends on that game. I see every single point you make, and while I'm playing Overwatch at a below-par skill level (Having no stealth class has ruined me), it genuinely pains me that I can't convince my now current friends, to come play Team Fortress 2. It feels like I want to bring MY friends to a server where we can meet friends. Just as you mentioned in this video. A lot of what you said has hit home for me, and while I like Overwatch, I'm yearning to return to TF2. I just wish I could bring friends with me.
"I KNOW I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO DURING THE HEIGHT OF TF2 HAD A FAVORITE SERVER WHERE NO MATTER WHEN YOU HOPPED ON YOU KNEW AT LEAST A THIRD OF THE PEOPLE PLAYING."
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Tf2 got its 6v6 from its competitive community. Not from overwatch. 6s has been a thing in tf2 since 2008.
Aw man, I _loved_ those TF2 random servers. Especially that Mario Kart level you showed made me extremely nostalgic. Later versions even had airships, actual karts running about and a way to get into the skybox. I remember one occasion where the entire team tried to pile into a single kart just for laughs. Or almost everyone went Spy, disguised as one particular player and stacked on top of each other for absolutely no reason. Or that one server where one of the admins always, without fail, started to slap every player repeatedly, making us fly around the map and giggle like idiots. Or how everyone decided that now's a good time to conga from one end of the map to the other.
TF2 can be incredibly stupid and that's why I love it.
Your description sounds strangely familiar... Were those servers called "Lazypurple" or something like that ?
This guy gets it
Tf2 is fucked up now
This comment made me extremely nostalgic to back when I played TF2 very casually and hadn't even discovered 6s yet
+Georgeina Strachan well valve servers where never that great with that and community servers like 24/7 hightower where usually better. Also volvo is going to fix casual one step at a time to fix tge map selection, slow matchmaking and everything, for now just play community servers like everyone else
I made my closest and most valued friends through TF2. One of my first steam friends was a guy I pocket medic'd almost daily. We met in a bar in Chicago 5 years later. The feeling when both of us realized who we were was indescribable. We've since gone separate ways, but I'll never forget how that felt
Similar thing happened to me on Rust. Been playing the game since it came out in 2013, right at the time I started to quit TF2. One day I met a guy outside of his base in a server I used to play in a lot; we played that wipe together and exchanged Steam contacts to play the next one. Been playing with him ever since then, sporadically between windows of opportunity amidst our studies and jobs. In late 2021 we finally met in São Paulo and cruised through downtown's bars and clubs. What's even funnier is that because of the nature of Rust's development along the years, I tend to remember moments in our friendship in reference to the game's history, keeping track of time by recollecting our wipes and playthroughs in a specific version of the game. It's crazy to see how video-games that appeal to this sort of social aspect, like TF2 and Rust, blends the real sensible world of your life with the tangent virtual one in a way that feels natural and relatable and that offers you a meaningful attachment to. And I'm not gonna lie, when Overwatch came out I did kinda take the role of the "staunch TF2 devotee nuthead", yelling shit like "they just put skin-tight arses and tits to resell TF2", but I did end up playing a lot of this game with that same friend and cannot remember not a single match in detail, be it for it's crazy clutch moments, hilarious bits, absurd players, etc. Just nothing. And I played it for years... These subtle changes in the way we use and adapt with the internet and it's many branching forms scares the shit out of me.
Yeah, I always loved the idea of a "digital home". It's very calming to be in a somewhat controllable and friendly environment, even if said environment isn't exactly real. I think it's the main appeal of "virtual world" games.
One of the reasons why MMO's are so popular. People dont know you too well and you can just fuck around with people, do random things, annoy others, go through hard content, do housing stuff and so on. MMO's used to be something to me that I would always find peace in. Just log in, see who is online, ask whats up and start planning the activities for the day within the game. Too bad most mmo's like FFXIV became total betrayals to those who played it at the starting times and everyone I know stopped playing the games. Doesnt take a big shitty move from the devs to drive away regular customers for good.
+no name I used to be a lot like you, and was mostly skeptical about "social games", but trust me, they exist and can be very fun. The best games for communities like the ones Errant talks about are I think the ones that bring people together through great cooperative gameplay, a good example would be the zombie horde mode servers in Chivalry.
I suspect that Minecraft would be one of the big games for that sort of community currently.
Also the games where you have to communicate a lot anyway. I found a bunch of nice people playing Rainbow Six Siege and Squad. And even on the Tactical Gamer Server in Battlefield 4.
And this kind of social gaming is pretty much the best experience there is tbh.
Uristqwerty It used to be, until it got taken over by the Lowest Common Denominators(tm).
I am totally and completely in agreement with you, Errant. Back in something like 2008-2010, I was a regular on an achievement server. The map had basically no objectives, no ending, no winners. It just had a big spawn room with a bunch of bots, and an outside world that people regularly did basically nothing. For all intensive purposes, it wasn't a proper TF2 map at all.
But I stuck around. I chatted with other players. I came back, and became a regular. I came back because I was able to talk with people. I was able to show off my new hats and weapons. Talk about a new update that valve made recently. I met people that I still call friends to this very day. You put it perfectly, it was a Home.
Sadly, that's long gone now.
Same. I was a regular on a trade server (before it was all about spreadsheets and speculating the market), and I met a friend there. After a year or two of talking to this guy, he started a competitive team and invited me, and that's where I met most of my online friends who I still talk to. I love the culture of TF2. I love the people. I love the personality, and I love the game, but unfortunately, I feel like Overwatch is just better.
It's super fun to play with my friends and all, but I don't get to meet any new people or razz players in server chat. The culture is completely different. Not that that's Blizzard's fault or an error in design or anything like that.
I hate to be "That Guy", but the saying is 'intents and purposes'. Not 'intensive purposes'.
Chuckler127 ... oh my fucking god.
My whole life has been a lie.
"Intensive purposes"
For when you really want something. NOW
xD
LOL
I still play in achievement engineer servers with those AFK bots. It's a really fun pastime for me.
As a non-shooter gamer, this was an incredibly interesting view of how game mechanics influence the social scene. Thank you so much!
Shit, maybe that has been my problem all along!
What have you been playing that is so well socially rounded?
It's kinda wrong. overwatch AND tf2 can be fast paced games. The real problem is how servers are handled, there is no matchmaking in tf2. He basically said "tf2 is casual, but overwatch is competitive" this has nothing to do with the game mechanics, but literally the servers. Valve is (finally) being forced by the success of overwatch to make tf2 competitive as well. Finding good competitive matches in tf2 is pretty hard, when matchmaking is fixed, it will finally offer more game modes for different players.
I used to play on TF2 Mario Kart server almost every day. It was an absolute blast. Constantly filled with the same people doing dumb shit whilst talking about dumb stuff.
Thats the spirit of TF2 to me.
the majority of my steam friends were met on tf2 or counter strike custom servers and we still play games today
Yup same here.
Be careful, Errant thinks you're a sexist and a 4chaner for saying that.
***** :P
This actually kinda almost made me tear up a little. I, too had one of those servers, and I miss them so, so much.
Same really, I was all about the Overwatch train, but in reality I do really miss the old days of tf2..
Saharan Spy Dead Ringer combo. Never forget.
And countless sleepless nights too..
RIP in peas, fav servers
Same
I miss that as well, but for Jedi Outcast rather than TF2. Player Servers were an incredible period. They are also what gave me the motivation to learn to type at reasonable speeds.
While TF2 has been in a bot crisis, and Overwatch has been in decline despite a sequel, this entire video remains incredibly accurate
in retrospect calling overwatch's lootbox and credit system "less exploitative" feels dirty and silly, and also discounts the way players could use the steam community market or trading to bypass needing to unbox for anything
yeah but he wasnt talking about the market nor trading
@@zacqonosokay and? "Person chose to not talk about something directly related to the argument that completely changes the argument" is not very valid lol.
But thanks for the tip I guess next time someone brings up "but what about this thing that you completely ignored" I can just say "oh I wasn't talking about that"
@@gamesux420 you absolutely can do that next time you decide to bring up something from 6 years ago
The presence of the Community Market is its own breed of exploitation.
PeopleMakeGames put out a good video recently on the topic, and while they primarily focused on CS:GO’s culture of gambling sites, many of the same issues absolutely exist for TF2.
Another relevant point is that by locking players into proprietary servers, the game will be permanently dead the instant the developers shut down the servers.
That is really worrisome.
I share that concern. People tend to forget about it because it's not an issue any time soon. Blizzard, I think, has a good (though not perfect) track record in this regard, so people can take some comfort in that. It's when other publishers follow the trend but don't follow through. I think every game should have an end-of-life plan in place -- remove DRM, design in such a way that you can patch the game and it'll still work without servers.
Don't worry fam, Blizzard is still releasing updates for Warcraft 2 and it's 20 years old and sold nowhere near as well as Overwatch. You don't need to worry about the servers going down any time soon :)
Adam McMillan But you also don't know if the Blizzard in 2036 will be the same as 2016 Blizzard
TF2's community server browser is also dependent on centralized servers, though. Otherwise you'd have to connect directly via IP, like in Minecraft.
This thread didn't hold up too well :P
It's insane how badly this aged on the Overwatch side.
Blizzard really is just that evil I guess
I feel like people never talk about the voice channel system in Overwatch, but I think it has a huge impact in making the game feel less social.
When you form a party, you're all put in party channel. When you join a match, you stay in party channel instead of joining team channel. All teammates not in your party cannot hear you, and you cannot hear them. You can manually change to team channel, but people rarely do.
So in the end you only verbally communicate with your party and not the rest of your team. Unless you're playing by yourself and get matched with others playing by themselves, you basically don't meet new people.
Seriously? Haven't played Overwatch but that's lonesome. In my old TF2 community servers, server wide team talk is switched on, making it a nice party of chatter. (And hilarious when spies speak while disguised)
Assuming anybody actually uses the team channel. One of my big frustrations with Overwatch is the dearth of chatter, which makes it hard to coordinate. This is a killer for a game that is supposed to be "team based." The success of a match feels like it depends a lot more on luck ("Did you get some good players on the team?") than the ability to coordinate and work together.
Gotta say i really hate the lack of communication in Overwatch. Games like Dota 2 really let you talk better with teammates, and i've met plenty of people i play online with through Dota 2 that way.
+Di0 guys... as a fan of both TF2 and blizzard as a whole (ive been playing their games since sc broodwar lol so im very devoted) but guys, overwatch is blizz's first FPS, not to mention its been released only for a few months. the developers will not fail anybody as long as there is a playerbase, and I can say that with confidence and promise. ive stuck with blizzards team for quite a while, and I have almost 90% faith in them.
Man, I shut voice chat off as soon as I booted up the game for the first time. I already have people cursing and berating others in the text chat, and I certainly do not need to hear that shit spoken as well.
This is beautiful. I've been an avid TF2 player since 2008 and your description of digital home made me tear up.
i htink the old system was kinda like you going to a bar on a regular occasion
you see the usuals and the random ones and so on.
With matchmaking its more lika a busy commuter train. A lot of different people that may have some similarity based on the destination of the train but you don't really interact with them and rarely see one person twice.
nice analogy
Tbh though, in Overwatch I VERY frequently bump into the same people more than once. It may be due to the fact that I spend most of my time playing and the probability of meeting other people who do the same multiple times increases as a result.
Definitely the best analogy to what Errant said. Makes it so much easier to understand.
I'd also say the analogy extends to what you actually do in the game. With dedicated servers you would either connect in to your local server or explore random new servers and try to fit in with the other types of people there to get along with them, whether they were serious, trolling or jokey you could end up not playing to win at all or goofing off with weird class/items/behaviour which could evolve into it's own server wide silliness (conga/dance/taunt/spycrab party). With matchmaking everyone is super focused on winning even in quickplay casual modes, because when the game is over most players will leave and never see each other again or are already playing in a party or don't want to wait around listening to a raging team if they loose. I personally find almost no fun from playing so competitively, besides what do you get for your efforts, a badge and a rank that nobody really cares about except those ragers? Overwatch is an impeccably designed game, but even the best games become boring and stressful after hours and hours of play with strict limited rules and an overly competitive player base. They have tried to sort this with the custom game lobbies but the focus is on unlocking lootboxes so people stick to the "real" gamemodes.
Just realized this video is 6 years old. I’M getting old.
wild to go back to the time when people thought overwatch wasnt absurdly exploitative
This makes me sad that I never experienced TF2 during it's "prime", where in-game communities developed like that. It kind of reminds me of how I wish I was born early enough to experience the internet in the high time of newgrounds and albinoblacksheep, where the new capabilities to create and share one's own content to everybody else within a smaller circle created a community that fostered some of the internet's most famous and beloved animations and games, giving rise to new indie game developers and content creators through a new, unique, and individualistic idea of community.
The shift we see from Overwatch's differences and TF2's changes parallels that of how online content was streamlined into what it is today. Now we no longer see small communities of gamers, animators, and audiences, but large networks and unreachable RUclips gods with sponsorships from large companies. In the same way, we see smaller gaming communities being pushed away as multiplayer games are designed with a competitive air about them.
Ultimately, I think this is all a result of these platforms becoming more and more mainstream. The internet is a very different place from how it used to be, and small communities are no longer what is emphasized by its users. As games are drifting more into the popular culture, their designs are attempting to appeal to the masses, and losing the small community setting. Just as RUclips is becoming more similar to television, competitive games are becoming more akin to competitive sports (or something like that.)
I don't know if I'm making huge oversights, but it's two in the morning and I thought of most of this as I was writing, so hopefully my ideas make sense to some degree (And hopefully somebody will actually read this giant wall of text :P )
You're exactly right. This is especially apparent in MMOs too. They've become less community and social oriented in favor of quick, short bursts of play.
illdiewithoutpi I disagree with the notion that the competetive nature of games makes the comunity aspect weaker.
Miguel Pereira that is a good point, but it does still significantly change the nature of interacting with other players
These small communities still exist, you just have to find them.
I feel you
This is one of my biggest issues with Overwatch. I want to be able to play a certain map or game mode over and over. I want to play with a community and not randoms. I want loadouts, cosmetics, and other things to mean more than being a random pre-approved thing that every single other player in the game will own and equip once they play enough rounds to unlock it or find it randomly in a loot box.
.....
Have you tried tf2?
The former stuff can be done through a community outside the game, for setting up custom matches. Not as convenient as just having servers, but it does call back to the gaming forums with a specific community and potentially their own miniature ladder.
I tried to after Overwatch but, at least to me the mechanics are too dated and the systems too convoluted for it to be worth my time.
For me, this (and my job), are what keeps me from spending longer play sessions in Overwatch. I've never really "bonded" with anyone like I did in TF2 or CS where I would just find really good synergy with a teammate or even enemy that led us to becoming actual friends in the future. I've never stumbled in on a close-knit or niche community that I just had to learn more about and spend more time immersing myself in. I just... play a couple matches and hope I can unlock one of the detailed skins.
None of that is really bad, but it's definitely different which is all I think he was trying to say with this piece anyway. It's a little more sterile of an experience.... probably for the better but sterile nonetheless.
The game itself isnt high quality enough (just reminding you of those hitboxes which are "working as intended") to exist long term as it is, it could have benefited from a more social aspect to it. I want to play on those few servers where certain people frequent along with some random folk that I might even dislike. I want to know the people to a degree, but I dont want it to become a circlejerk like a custom game mode would be. That would require you to know the people to begin with in one way or another.
heck, some of my fondest memories with games were meeting certain people on games with community servers. Met some of my best friends in older battlefield games, went to the same few servers that rotated all maps on conquest and kept bumping into a few people there, eventually we started squading up and like 6 years later we are still the best of friends. With these modern stupid one click matchmaking things, people will miss that and will become even more socially retarded online. People are shy enough in games as it is, afraid to use their mics, say things in the chats and so on. This will only make that stronger. Its funny how people have been getting less and less social in online games in general. Played online strategy, fps and mmo's all my life and I've noticed this happen slowly, but surely. Simply because games enable it.
There was a time when I was too afraid to ask around for a group in an MMO, eventually with the help of a friend I grew a pair and I did cobble together a group and we cleared a dungeon which was something to remember. Nowadays even MMO's offer those one click matchmakings, people dont even say hi to eachother anymore. some "roleplaying games".
About loot boxes: "It's stupid, but it doesn't feel manipulative"
Well, didn't that change.
As somebody who played an obscene amounts of TF2 several years ago, this episode really seems to hit the nail on the head. The atmosphere in Overwatch is just so much more rigid and demanding you do what you're supposed to do, rather then TF2's laid-back approach.
While I agree with pretty much everything, I gotta disagree with this : 10:21
After the recent TF2 update hit, and we got the Casual matchmaking and the Competitive matchmaking, the demand for Good Community servers has increased by a lot. This is due to the fact that the original public games hosted by valve arent there anymore (since they got substitued by the previously mentioned matchmaking), creating a lot of demand for servers in which you can just enter with a click and have nearly 0 commitment.
This happens because most of the TF2 playerbase has a huge "hop-in, play for some minutes, leave" mentality. Casual Matchmaking, while creating way more entertaining and balanced matches (most of the time), creates an atmosphere where, unlike in the old valve pubs, most players want to win and commit more than usual.
So my point is, TF2 now will have 3 types of servers (excluding non-vanilla TF2 servers) : Competitive matchmaking (Official servers), for players looking for a serious 6v6 match under a competitive scenario. Casual matchmaking (Official servers), for players looking for a public and casual 12v12 game where the players, that can enter and leave when they please, will usually attempt coordination, teamplaying and commitment. And lastly the community servers, for those who like the old TF2 where, as you said, you knew 33% of the server whenever you joined, and you feel like you're a part of something.
Pum! Haven't seen you posting too many timestamps under competitive TF2 videos recently, nice to see your name crop up under some TF2 related content.
VARIOUS videos I only post time stamps on eXtv channel, and he hasnt post a TF2 cast video in a long time, sadly enough.
I appreciate you recognising me tho.
love it to see people not bashing on valve for that update
TF2 will likely gain a 9v9 mode soon enough, its greyed out, however it IS an option in the matchmaking menu. So likely there will be 4 server types for TF2, the ones you explained and then a 9v9 setup that might take on a more HL like role, which would be good, since it means an easier time for anyone to get into comp styled TF2. I've also played overwatch some, and though my pc can't run it atm due to low fps issues, I can say it is indeed what is explained in the video. A very service like shooter, thats fun to play with a preset group.
I was hoping they would do something like this since the new update came. I welcome the more rigid matchmaking, but there are times when I want casual games with no commitments where I can jump in and derp around as a shotgun heavy or demoknight, it's the goofy, laid-back game we all fell in love with
Love this, and I started playing TF2 almost 4 years ago and the community aspect was still there, and still is, it's just continually gotten smaller as people migrated away, which at the same time has made the community tighter.
The Videogame Equivalent of /b/ is the best kind of server.
I just wish Blizzard wasn't so full of themselves due to their success. The Wow fans who maintained a vanilla server for over 800,000 subscribers for free got put down because apparently it's not what people want... and they were trying so hard to shill a game that has been loosing it's subscriber base since Wrath of the Lich King. I can't see them acting any different once overwatch gets as old ad wow. Once Blizzard stops caring about something they don't let the people that do direct where they need to go and it hurts them in the long run.
Same, blizzard will NEVER improve a game drastically until its on its deathbed. Similar to what happened with diablo3. A shitty game still, but they did something to it atleast. Overwatch is a mess and they just keep jerking themselves off to the numbers of people who bought the game, how popular its on the internet and so on.
"yeah we are transparent and we listen to community feedback" *proceeds to release the absolute worst, sorry excuse of a ranked mode to overwatch*
+ProjectiluvOP I should probably be making the distinction between the devs and their superiors because the one good thing about Overwatch right now is the forum interaction in the development process.
The thing is, Overwatch is Blizzard's 1st FPS game they've ever made.
KenjiKusanagi I don't see your point. Can you elaborate?
Henny Zhi Diablo is a game which Blizzard knows well about it, so if 3rd one is shit, it's understandable that they screwed it up, but in case of Overwatch, it's different. This is their 1st FPS game they have ever created, so devs can get away with that mess they've made, since it's something unknown for them and so far for a 1st FPS game, it's good.
I love you. You got it spot on: I've made genuine, good friends from and in TF2 and I wasn't even playing during the fabled Golden years (I bought the game in the Orange Box something like 2 days after it went free to play) and for that I owe it a huge debt. A community server, that is sadly now gone, that I frequented felt exactly like a social club; regulars, in jokes, friendly atmospheres and a lot of support for custom maps (when I first joined exclusively custom maps).
It was never big, but like a small home can be cozy it was extremely comfortable and a large part of the reason I've held off buying Overwatch has to do with that total lack of support for such communities, I've spent ~$100 in TF2 over 1500 hours and every cent was rewarded, not only by the game, but also by the community that it created, while Overwatch wants me to pay for a full priced game with no support for the social aspect that kept, and keeps, me playing TF2.
Great video, spot on points, bravo, TF2 is a damn hard game to cover in commentary like this.
This video just hit me straight in the heart. Now I'm reminiscent of the thousands hours spent on my classic hangout servers in TF2 circa 2010-2013, the friends I knew, the stupid pointless conversations we held, the fun we had. Yes, I've been playing Overwatch recently and while it does have the gameplay charm of mid-early TF2 (something that I appreciate greatly), the socializing aspect is nowhere comparable to getting to know the regulars of a server, making friends and having a laugh, much like the bar comparison you mentioned.
Finding this video on my reccommended list was one of the most accurate choices by RUclips lately. Subscribed.
I know what you mean man. I play on a private runescape server and while the game is extremely outdated. (early 2000s mmo). the community is nice. It's a group of people that I know and the community is always fluctuating. New people join, old people retire, etc...
I think overwatch could easily implement the option for user servers / rooms. I'm sure most people would stick with automatic matchmaking but the custom rooms could potential help form small communities. (like an ANIME room, or Korean R&B room)
The last time I experienced something like that was in gmod's "Trouble in Terrorist Town" (2012) and I felt that the future of this type of social interaction (against sterilised matchmaking) is in games that are trying to make communication in the game harder (your friend secretly became your enemy; your friend died somewhere when you are talked to him; you both have different look of the level and you should to understand these differences together, etc.) to make it more engaging.
I am so happy Overwatch doesn't have hats and three billion alt weapon skins. That kind of economy trading meta-game and rare item wankery was cancer in TF2 and CSGO and deserves to be left there.
That being said, I do mourn the loss of community servers. While I'm glad there's a strong commitment by Blizzard to have a core vanilla game that's always supported, the community-created maps and mods in Source games were always a fun distraction and I wish there was a parallel to that in Overwatch.
Hurts to watch now...
"Theres nothing you cant get with just... Time."
RiP OverWatch
and tf2 has random drops too...
Guess which game is still "alive"
Great video, captured the TF2 server experience perfectly. I met so many good people that way... so much fun.
it's weird to come back to a video that's really prescient about the direction that games ended up going in the intervening years, and see several comments fanboying about TF2 while largely missing the point that was originally being made
overwatch being the subject matter, and the bad direction that game went, don't ultimately matter to what was being (correctly) claimed here: that the days of casual meandering online spaces in shooters was being sunset in favor of the ultra-focused matchmaking format where there's no room for building a community within the game itself
man I love TF2 and it meant a lot to me growing up, but there are some really diehard players who get embarrassingly precious about the culture of the time that also died out with those community spaces. lower interaction with strangers and higher interaction with the mechanics of the game is part of why we've seen the rise of matchmaking systems, and saying "I miss the TF2 servers where I could shout slurs at people" is remarkably dense to that reality
I've never played TF2, so I can't compare, but i've already made friends in Overwatch!
On multiple occasions, someone's tag has a reference I get or they have a really good attitude, then we add each other as friends!
Some of them I share my blog with and we set up times to play together, it's a blast!
I haven't made any friends on Overwatch yet, but I have definitely had some pretty fun chats with teammates, sometimes even opponents! I also haven't played TF2 in years, but when I did I never made any friends there either...So maybe the problem is just me, but I think there's definitely room to socialize in Overwatch, even with how fast paced the game is.
That's very nice, although I have to agree with campster on this. Just some weeks ago I tried quake live and people actually knew each others and talked about their lives while. I heard all of it and I wanted to be part of it. On the opposite side, if I heard someone speaking too much in overwatch I'd feel a bit annoyed
Your experience seems to be completely different from my own. The game feels isolating to me. You just play the objectives. The only time you care about the other people is when they aren't working with the rest. Overwatch is about the match, and the post-game stuff shows it.
It isn't the same as having that being merged with the play. On tf2 I went on a server, met new people, and was able to dick around with the people I already knew on maps that could go on forever where we can just shoot the shit.
So far my friends on Overwatch are the ones I was already friends with. Doesn't stop chatting with strangers being fun though.
I don't feel that Overwatch is "more inclusive". Stuff like that gets thrown around all the time... but from my experience, it's the exact opposite. In Overwatch, you get random people that has zero incentive to help you or even reach a basic level of friendly. You're all just there for the moment and in a round or two you'll all move on to new groups of people to play with.
I've put in more hours in TF2 than I'd ever admit and despite that I've never been "harassed" like I have in Overwatch. Every other round has someone yelling about "you're not playing your class correctly" or the classics like "get cancer".
Now I'm not one who takes any of that kind of thing seriously but I really don't get how an argument can be made that OW is the more "inclusive" of the two. Nothing in the game (except the threat of reports and bans) incentivises people to behave well against one another.
Having regulars and people who can help set the tone of a server makes much more welcoming experience than OW's "harass and move on" setup. I love the game but the "community" a whole is just awful.
Interesting. Trying to police the whole community at once, globally, to some compromise standard, vs policing one community on a server according to a local standard that may be very different to somewhere else.
you can actually use your taunt with a keypress, just bind it in the options menu.
At first I wasn't sure where you were going with this, but I actually really liked this video. It puts words to a feeling I've been having for a long time.
Very well done.
This put the finger on one of the things keeping me from getting into Overwatch. When the LFG tool was introduced to WoW it destroyed an important layer of realm community building, and my experience in that game changed permanently for the worse. The matchmaking in Overwatch is an extension of that mentality, and just like WoW's LFG, half the time I feel like I'm playing completely alone even when I'm constantly interacting with other people. I find I'd rather just go back to 1 player games at that point.
Is it weird that I got nostalgia even though I have never touched TF2?
TF2 has that effect on people :P
Now imagine watching this as someone who's played TF2 since 2007 :/
Source game
I also have nostalgia for Quake 3 Arena
But that's maybe becausz of the early 2000's aesthetics
I occasionally come across your videos and I've got to say that this one is really fucking good, roused a lot of memories and made me feel like some of these observations weren't just my own fabrication. Keep up the good work
This is my first video from your channel and I must say this is a very good comparison video, I love both games but they do share specific differences that I both like and dislike. Keep up with the videos man this was great!
The quality of these videos is through the roof........and I know that part of that comes from the long turnover; they're made when Errant feels inspired, and he takes his time. But I've seen almost all of them twice now, and I want MORE dammit =P
It'd be interesting to see this video if it was made in the post jungle inferno era
Do you think Overwatch's emphasis on acting as a "service" can be attributed to Blizz's goal of making Overwatch an e-sport?
I think that informs a lot of their decision making, though I don't think "removing a sense of community" was ever an explicit goal.
Blizzard's recent design philosophy for StarCraft II, Hearthstone, Heroes of the Storm, and now Overwatch all follows a similar pattern - design to be easily accessible so that both newbies and casual spectators can enjoy watching what's going on by providing simple, clear roles for each unit/player, but provide enough emergent depth that the resulting game is highly skill-driven and can be played on pro-circuits. And yeah, I think the desire to make the game pro-friendly impacted the design of things like its matchmaking and server selection, as well as how wacky goofy your costumes can be. The result is that Overwatch is way, _way_ easier to turn into a pro game (TF2 pro has always felt like trying to make pro Smash Bros, insofar as so many items and playstyles are restricted it's very "Final Destination No Items Fox Only™"). But it also means that the game isn't interested in catering to a mid-level player just looking to unwind at the end of the day, and that's where TF2 excelled.
I think you forgot the end of your comment there.
I'd think that Overwatch was designed as the "call of duty alternative", this is why it's also so successful...
and that's where the lack of mid level players is lacking (call of duty is built around people already knowing the game playing at the game, with little to no care to new comers)
Blizzard was definitely pushing Overwatch onto the e-sport scene from the start, which is why they enforced uniformity so much. By removing community servers and 24-player matches, it ensures that casual players can transition smoothly to competitive, which is what TF2 struggles with.
I'd say that Overwatch is Blizzard's take on creating a 'MOBA shooter'; it takes the idea of abilities per character and streamlined, formulated gameplay sequence to the FPS genre. Since most similar games like DotA, LoL, HotS, etc. are competitve in the genre's nature, Overwatch inherited it thus it's easy to target the competitve scene.
I believe that community servers are actually going to GROW because of the removal of quickplay. I took the time to actually find a server that now I am a regular in because of the Meet your Match update
"TF2 tempts you to gamble - to get exclusive, rare items. Overwatch just offers you to speed up the unlocks for a price. It's stupid, but... it doesn't feel manipulative".
Oof. Sadly a quote that just didn't get to age well.
Safety and sensitivity ruins expression.
Stumbled upon this video today and I really enjoyed it enough to subscribe. Keep up the good work dude!
They're less common but those community servers where you get to know everyone still exist in TF2 and the rest of valve games with custom servers, hell probably with all games with custom servers lol. I agree with you though I do wish more games would let people do it that way.
Which is why quake 3 still has servers with communities decades old still going strong and never quitting.. While quake live loses players daily. Same with unreal tournament 99.
Actually the main reason why Quake Live is losing players is because of Bethesda's retarded idea to make it Steam exclusive AND force you to pay it one to play the game.
Still played Quake 3 this summer. Username is niCKaeRo
+Miguel Pereira 1.16?
+suckdatthumb445 I think so... I think I have 1.00, 1.16 and 1.32
I also have Q3
are there rocket jump servers there?
Amazingly well put. Good video as always.
I think it's funny that Overwatch included sprays, but seems to completely miss the point of what made sprays fun... The fun part was that you could have custom sprays that could literally be any image you found online or even made yourself. This meant you had some sense of individuality. Pre-made sprays that you unlock simply misses the point completely. Another thing I find weird is the very limited emote wheel... In TF2 you had tons of emotes and you could almost have entire conversations with another players through emotes only. In Overwatch there isn't even a way to make your character say "no" for some reason.... A simply "yes" and "no" is the MINIMUM I expect from any game trying to do this kind of thing.
The recent TF2 update removed the quickplay menu which a _lot_ of people are very unhappy about. Quickplay was a great way to join random Valve pubs and/or community made servers, but it's pretty much gone now. Valve has been listening to community feedback fairly well for the new matchmaking system so far but nothing's been said about returning quickplay. Hopefully they'll listen and bring back what made up a good portion of TF2's 'freedom', if that's the correct word.
Well Valve servers just no longer exist outside of casual servers so it is unlikely they will return to the quickplay method. But tbh the quickplay method was pretty bad as half the time it would slap you into a server with few or no people playing on it because they are simply trying to fill the void in their servers. With community servers still running, I don't see a reason for them to backtrack on this change
www.teamfortress.com/ read the blog
I think that they are trying to give the old job that Pubs had to Community servers. Casual Matchmaking is basically a mix between Comp and Pubs, which I kinda like.
I can't believe I miss the lootboxes
This was a very interesting and unique approach to the discussion of "Overwatch vs. TF2", and as usual it was well argued and thought provoking. As someone who never played TF2 and is excited to get Overwatch, it put things in a light that almost makes me nostalgic for a game I never even played!
Quite moving in a nostalgic sense, I liked how you started the video with the TF2 soundtrack and ended it with the overwatch soundtrack...I am sure there is a meaning in that ^^
6v6 has existed in TF2 long before Overwatch was a thought, your suggestive tone suggests you thought otherwise.
Oh my god, you nailed exactly why I've been feeling more nostalgic for TF2 after playing a bunch of Overwatch. So much of OW's pacing seems so insanely fast, and each player matters so much that there is next to no down-time. And all of the stuff you said about the user-managed servers, I hate having to play with all these randos, I want to frequent specific communities :(
Your enunciation is excellent. The auto-generated subtitles are almost word-perfect, which is very rare.
i miss that sense of community in gaming, I used to have a ton of experiences like that when I played natural selection and neotokyo back in the day.
Very interesting video I missed back in the day, though some stuff seems silly in hindsight and some I think I would've found silly even back when this video was new
24/7 instant respawn 2fort is where i met almost half of my friends on steam.
Really enjoy your videos. You're very thoughtful and insightful. Please update more often. You should have a Patreon.
Oh! You do!
i think that oddly enough my personal "digital home" is warframe
its the place im comfortable with
i have the clanmates and other friends who i know and play with often
we have our different daily/weekly grind traditions
this person is our trinity or our nova
and much like tf2's hats theres always a sense of expression
fashionframe is important to a lot of us to show off how we look (whether its sleek, elegant, or absolutely garish)
and the other part i love is that even if i play with randoms theres a sense of a larger community
because it has an overwhelmingly friendly playerbase
Glad to see dedicated servers were addressed later down the road and somehow allowed for a whole new spectrum of interaction
I honestly hate the recent trend of games becoming more "safe" and "streamlined". Take Halo, for instance. Ever since 343 took control, the custom games options have become more and more restrictive, whereas before they got more expansive with each release. Why is this?
Games are becoming the equivalent of a Macbook. Someone new to games will probably appreciate the apparent polish as opposed to how games looked in the past, but anyone who has actually been playing games can see it's becoming more difficult to do things your own way. They can't have the system be too complex, because then new people would be lost. And they have to lock everything in place, otherwise new people might accidentally mess something up. The only way to maintain the pretty polished thing they created is to keep an iron grip on everything.
So you're right when you say that's just the trend games are going in right now, but I'd say it's a shitty trend and we should be doing anything we can to change it. But you're much more sold on the idea of games being a "safe and inclusive space" by engineered design, so you probably won't.
Casual gamers outnumber us, we are a minority. The only people who really listen to us, or ply the niche, is Paradox.
***** Just with a select few friends. You can always hop into a random game every now and again
Sad part is, even Paradox games are becoming more... "casualized". Not that they're casual per se, just that a lot of effort is being made to make them appeal to slightly more mainstream audiences rather than to just make the games better. Imagine if HoI4 had been a proper sequel to HoI3, or if Stellaris had been a proper grand strategy with interesting history and lore for distinct entities in a sci-fi setting instead of a slightly expanded galactic civilizations 2.
Not that what we got was *bad*, and Paradox is still good on valuing putting the quality of the game over anything else in things like their release schedules ("it's done when it's done" doesn't really make casuals happy), I'm worried they may be starting to go the same direction as much of the rest of the industry.
Let's hope they don't. I probably have more time logged in EU3 than any other game, I know they can do good shit.
***** Honestly if they just removed sprint Halo 5's gameplay would be perfect. I like smartscope, clamber, and ground pound, but sprint has always been a bad idea in Halo and every new game with it shows that more and more.
And yeah the forge is great. Which is what makes the custom games options so strange. Apart from a few specific things, not only have they not added options, they've scaled them back.
By the way, don't forget that you're able to buy various TF2 items for pennies on the steam market.
and Overwatch gets shit for free from crates while making to pay for em via store completely optional.
KenjiKusanagi
I'm not sure I understand your comment. TF2 has free item drops, including both randomized crates and direct cosmetics/weapons for free.
Additionally, if there is a specific item you want, you don't have to just buy randomized crates and hope you get them, you can simply buy the specific weapon for a few pennies... optionally...
Even further, there is a crafting system to build an item you want out of your duplicates, and of course the market, with which you can simply sell your duplicates.
So what are you trying to say? I'm not sure if you're criticizing Overwatch for its subpar system, or if you're, for some reason, trying to imply that it's better in some way.
Zedek True that the TF2 has a item drop, but it's very limited to weapons,hats and crates. You no longer can get the name/description tag, paint. Also it's rare to get a hat.
KenjiKusanagi
Oh no, I'm stuck getting much more meaningful weapons, rather than sprays, and hats have a rarity; completely unlike anything in Overwatch, and it's terrible how I can optionally purchase the specific item I want /s
Alright, you have a nice day.
craft craft craft.
This is so well-observed. I've played both games for hundreds of hours, and I agree with you basically every point. My personal opinion is that the trade-off has been worthwhile, especially as I get older and have less time to spend on in-game downtime, and as I begin to value density and quality of entertainment over the looser, more relaxed, more expressive style of a game like TF2.
As an example, I wasted waaaaay too many hours on Orange 3CP as a kid, and I'm almost glad that Overwatch won't LET me do that again, even if I wanted to.
The reason why characters/skins are not nearly as customizable in overwatch is because you're playing a character with a unique story and background that exists within the game's rich lore. Reaper only will wear outfits that reaper would wear, and you cannot dress mercy up in d.va's skin tight jumpsuit because it's just not her style. But that makes it awesome because when you play as your favorite hero, you are in effect cosplaying as them, which is fundamentally different from trying to turn a class into a representation of yourself.
In terms of matchmaking, Blizzard straight up copied the systems that exist in the current successful e-sports like league of legends and counter strike go. That being said, they recently announced custom games will be given a browser so that you can find public community game modes, which is awesome. But they definitely put competitive matchmaking over community because they wanted to make an e-sport, which they really succeeded in a way tf2 hasn't.
Also the developer-community relationship is incredible to the point where it's literally touching.
Excellent video. I remember playing on 3-4 of my favorite TF2 servers exclusively almost every week from 2007-11. When Valve added silly overpowered nonsense into the game, we would just ban it from the server (ex: Dead Ringer at launch, mini-sentries at launch, etc). We also had random crits turned off in all of them. As a result, very few people raged and everyone became friends very quickly. We'd try funny team comps, ridiculous steamrolls, have spray/taunt parties, go all-class teams when a new class update came out, try out all the cool and weird community maps, and overall just have a good time.
I can't explain how relaxing it felt after a long day of classes in college to just kick back with a beer and play on my favorite servers late into the night. Everyone was pretty good at the game too. The skill levels in the server were pretty damn high. I miss those days. I'm having an absolute blast with Overwatch right now, but I know exactly what you mean by this game not having the potential to create communities of like-minded players. It's a lot of fun, but at the same time, if I don't find that "digital home" that I love (as you put), I don't know how long I see myself playing it before I eventually get bored of the core gameplay. :/
I miss my old TF2 servers. Heading home after school to play you see and chat with familiar people day after day. Learnt peoples quirky playstyles and you recognized peoples favourite outfits. Long conversations over multiple maps, admins changing the map to fun dysfunctional maps like Wacky Races, all heavy/pyro/spy fights, peace heavy, pyro-sharks etc. It was glorious.
Great video! I really liked the description of Overwatch being like a cross between TF2 and Splatoon.
That community aspect is the main reason I have a love/hate relationship with 4chan's /vg/ communities.
Some of the people are right bastards but really, I can't get that community feeling anywhere else.
Man, your videos are usually incredible, but I really enjoyed the ideias you've tried to bring in this video in particular! I think you are walking just the right path as a critic when you discuss the feelings of community, the potencial to make friends, the capacity to have deep and intimate experiences while playing that a certain game offers.
When talking about politics in game you should also look at this aspect of gaming in particular. Questioning "How does this game bring us together and allows to know each other in a shallow or deep personal level."
Congrats, dude...
You made me dearly miss the TF2 server I near solely went to throughout my High School years.
I miss you |LAB|
The TF2 team has been talking about/working on comptitive matchmaking for about 2 years before it came out last week. It's not copying overwatch.
now hold on, at 9:30 you claim that those /b/ level servers are a problem, I'd say they're more of a feature, like the custom gamemodes (prop hunt, deathrun, vs Saxton Hale, surf_) they're a place to 'unwind' as it were. Someplace to go and mess around when you're tired of pushing the same cart down the same track. Almost all of them have alltalk(everyone hears you, not just your team) which further encourages player interaction.
but that's just like, my opinion, man
I'm excited to see what the upcoming inclusion of custom game servers to Overwatch will be like. I used to play TF2 and getting to know the people you play with is the main thing i miss about it. Hopefully something like that will be possible in Overwatch in the future.
About the crates; I think its leas bad than other crates due to the fact that its user made content, and the users who get their items are payed by Valve, so its not like valve is just making all the money. The people who play the game get money too.
could not agree more. I never played TF but I remember meeting people playing on custom Unreal Tournament servers, there was a sense of community that just does not exist in modern shooters. I really miss those days...
Seriously great video! You hit the nail on the head with how much of a difference these two games have, even with how similar they are. Its kind of a shame the TF2 switched pace with Overwatch knocking on their door. I played TF2 since orange box, and the sub-communities made from serious to silly servers is a beautiful thing.
I will give the new overwatch style that TF2 embraced a shot, because a couple years back, its exactly what I wanted. But what I will remember the game for are the hours spent mic spamming music for a whole server with everyone dancing and genuinely having a great time. Hats for life
I can imagine while everyone is using their sprays and smashing their head against the wall in the startup phase you're sitting in the corner having an epiphany.
Damn it, now I'm nostalgic about the old days of TF2 again. This is just sad. Thanks a lot, campster.
my 'hurfstone' joke aside this is another fantastic upload from you and one of the biggest reasons i have a problem playing most new online game these days. i miss the days of hopping on to sven coop or tsrp severs in halflife mods and making friends with what in most new games would just be randos to shoot.
9:21-9:36 But nobody forces you to go to those servers. You are able to choose which server you want to go to.
You're absolutely brilliant - and so are your videos!
I never really got to experience this sense of regularly visiting one community server when I started playing TF2, but now Creators.TF is bringing back an experience that can only be this felling
The nostalgia got touched with the tf2 servers and that final line, how good were those messy and stupid vsh and deathrun matches we had in this place we'd hang out.
As a tf2 player who loves the game, even tho the path it has took with the hats stuff, and hasn't yet played Overwatch, thanks for the good old memories.
Yes... There seems to be a shift in video games over time to focus more on the game(!) than simply goofing off with other people. I really don't know if i would say that's a good or a bad thing. On one hand it seems completely reasonable that a game should be about the game, because that's the bloody point of a game, isn't it? It's not designed per se for you to meet new friends.
But that sounds kind of sad. Cause on the other hand there is a big social aspect to multiplayer games, and maybe it is a better idea to nurture that aspect as best you can. I really don't know what the best solution might be, though i know i would personally love to see some custom game modes or maps in Overwatch. Some guy mentioned an "Overwatch randomizer" where you get a random weapon and abilities every time you spawn. That would be amazing.
I think an important difference in regards to having a favourite server is that Overwatch is only a 6v6 game whereas TF2 was 12v12 (or possibly 16v16 on custom servers). You could just fit more people. So maybe even the basic game design limits the potential for social spaces like that.
Interesting point, and also summarizes my TF2 experience pretty nicely - spent ~2 years going to 2 or 3 servers every evening where I knew everybody. Great times :)
You know what really felt like a digital home for me, World of warcraft..
I think the difference is a shift in were people socialise. Community servers used to be a place for hanging around and meeting people but has now been replaced by VOIP programs, such as raidcall, discord, skype, mumble, teamspeak and so on. These fill role of both finding new players to play with (larger VOIP servers house PUGs and such) and the ability to hang out with friends in a digital space. I don't think we lost the social interaction in games, It just moved.
The moving away from private run servers that build community, to the Locked down matchmaking is representative of the fact that gaming is now, more than ever, "Mainstream." The average public isn't looking for a place to go; they're looking for a thing to do. Having to track down a server that you can actually enjoy and be part of a community is one extra step that the average consumer just doesn't want to put up with.
Great video and keep up the good work.
Oh man, this talk about joining a server where you know most of the people really hits me hard, mostly since a community i was a part of for a good part of 4 years fell apart recently. With so many people moving to overwatch or just stopping TF2 it just kinda hurts to think about it, but i'll always remember those carefree days where i could jump on my favuorite server and talk shit sithmy mates, it may not seem like much but sitting here and reminissing about that time really puts a heavy feeling in my chest.
All around me are Socail Spaces, Payload Races, Familiar Faces
This video reminded a lot of older WoW, since back in the day before LFR and cross realms there used to be much more of a community feel with the regulars in trade chat and the guilds everyone recognized. When you were talking about the nostalgia of older TF2 it really made me miss the days that have long since passed in favor of accessibility to the core gameplay. It's almost a shame though since those older experiences were some of the times that made me most invested in a game and yet we definitely don't see that style of game experience as much.
I was a pro-player Spy in the peak of Team Fortress 2. I had been playing in the UGC and dedicated over 1,000 hours of game time as the Spy class in the game. I got to play against some of the best Spy players in the world. I met an awful lot of friends on that game.
I see every single point you make, and while I'm playing Overwatch at a below-par skill level (Having no stealth class has ruined me), it genuinely pains me that I can't convince my now current friends, to come play Team Fortress 2.
It feels like I want to bring MY friends to a server where we can meet friends. Just as you mentioned in this video. A lot of what you said has hit home for me, and while I like Overwatch, I'm yearning to return to TF2. I just wish I could bring friends with me.
"I KNOW I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO DURING THE HEIGHT OF TF2 HAD A FAVORITE SERVER WHERE NO MATTER WHEN YOU HOPPED ON YOU KNEW AT LEAST A THIRD OF THE PEOPLE PLAYING."
This. This is an excellent comparison between the two games. Thank you!