Heromarine KNOWING he's playing vs a player with maphacks is quite huge. Running into someone you DON'T know is hacking can be much more difficult as it's only after a few suspect moves you realise and change your play accordingly. Next time I'll see if I can turn on the map reveal for the other player without letting the pro know and see how long they take to realise :D
I'm glad you said this because I was thinking the same thing. Heromarine not knowing might have resulted in some failed nuke runs, hidden bases being found immediately, or drops being prepared for. Personally I don't feel like stream sniping or map hacking is going to help anyone beat a pro unless they are a pro (or at the level of a pro) themselves. It is the same as all of the shooter games where people use wall hacks, but still die immediately after a better player sees them. Getting the drop doesn't do much against superior skill, even though logistical information is far more valuable in SC than other games - still won't help you out play them 80% of the time.
Keep in mind that a real map hacker wouldn't have this much of an advantage. This is full visibility, but that would be too obvious as tanks are shooting without vision. On the other side, it's also a very big advantage to actually know that the opponent can see everything
i guess since we can can't easily simulate a real maphack on the ladder, the next best thing is to try to balance the advantages(real player knows Opp is hacking, vs give the maphacker a little extra). but I think units having full vision is too OP, not close to real simulation. :::someone should load map hacks up and stream snipe big players....and live stream it the whole time. For science. actually there are probably people that do just this, not for long tho.
This isn't that shocking to me. Pro gamers are a serious step above the elite players online. Certainly map hack has to be worth a significant amount, but it isn't going to enough of a difference to overcome a significant skill disadvantage. I wonder how much mmr map hack is worth?
Probably not much without a good build order. Cheese defence would be solid, but maphacks don’t make your reaction times better and can even make your decision making worse at times. From what I’ve seen maphackers have a tendency to turtle really hard and hyperfocus unit counters.
Its less of an advantage if you KNOW your opponent has maphack because you know they will react to what you do you can kind of mind game them. If you don't then you wont expect them to always know. So once you figure out they are cheating it gets easier.
@@TheMuffinman191 Not even for the cheese defense. I saw SC1 gamer Last rushing with initial 4 probes and beat a Terran player 5 game in row. You can't beat pro micro.
This is kind of like a college football team playing an NFL team but the college team knows all the play calling. The NFL players are still incredibly bigger, stronger, faster, and smarter
So there are few things to do against hackers. FPS - games, explosive weapons, and self sacrifice works, IE cooking the grenade. RTS - top view - These games are limited to resource and production, and the early game if your on par, the enemy can never out produce you in the beginning, if you scout early you can see an all in, and make plans or expand, after the first fight, if your a little more defensive you can easily defend early game, mid game mightb e where yo ustruggle and notice that you can never get in without engagement. Hwoever, when you attack from many points its limited to apm of a person, regardless of what they see, so mothership recall, nydus, multiple drops, fake drops, since they can't see if the medi is full or not, yo ucna do am id air medi swap. defensiuve style works well, Terran basically has sensor towers and map hacks, protoss has observors, and zerg has creep, all of which gives vision and some maps have vision towers. So all this gives a normal player vision. Advatage of map hakcing is countering cheese or slower players brutally. ten seconds behind on cybernetics core will lose you the game, because they know... Map hackers if they were pro level, would know when you start research and snipe those buildings before completion, and or as zerg spit on those buildings over and over and then destroy it... I like swarm host in 3-4 used as terran tech snipes for their buidlings, as they are mostly undefended... anyways... in starcraft, you have vision and mobility and have many tools to view the map that costs relatively nothing so this limits the abiltiy of someone knowing everything, but the game is limited on rss, so there is a real game limit to collection rate etc. to what you can do.. mid game// late all players tend ot have every production building to adapt to the situation and certian lines will be maxed out. Seeing everything can also waste your apm... as your not macros or microing battle fronts easily... So meh. thats my thoguhts
only for terran, cause terran has scan and can invest solely energy into scouting. Zerg would lose ALL overlords/zerglings and protoss would lose 90% of observers
TvT is probably one of the most stressful matchups to play against maphacks due to the positional nature of the matchup. I think Zerg is probably one of the better ones due to how fast your army can roam the map and force the opponent to reposition + actively scout with cheap zerglings
It's funny how little map hacks truly help against a solid understanding of the game's fundamentals. When Map Hacks are used, it's often countered just by playing well and smartly. Just making sure the fundamentals are done well, having a good economy and macro skills, will trump most map hacks.
The only thing that maphack truly helps is making sure you will always have the superior setup. Right unit composition, understanding when you can take favorable trades, picking battlefields. I tried this with my friends in AoE2. I let them maphack against me and they rarely took a game because i just played a much more solid game against them. There is also the benefit of knowing your opponent has maphack and i wouldn't play the strategies i did against them on ladder too much. Not that much raiding, focusing heavily on macro and defense until my opponent couldn't win favorably anymore. But when the roles were reversed and i got to have maphack against my friends, i could win 1v3 extremely easy because i was already quite a bit better as a player and understood the game much more. So you're right, maphack heavily benefits the player that has a better understanding of the game, while knowing what your opponents are doing isn't that helpful if you can't use the information that well. But when i had it, they couldn't take a single fight that was good for them anymore, even when they tried to work together and pool their armies. Easy to avoid it when i know where it is. Oh and maphacks is an insane confidence booster. I'm already quite the aggressive player but with maphacks that just went to another level that my friends couldn't deal with.
The Main reason why maphackers cant beat pros is because they're just worse at the game, Their mechanics, micro and macro and just worse and the only thing they got going is that they don't have fog of war. Vision is pretty important but if you don't have the mechanics it isn't going to be of much use.
@@aaabatteries9948exactly. Your vision and scouting can be as good as possible but if your positioning and macro aren’t then it doesn’t matter. Obviously vision would help those in decision making, but execution is 3/4 the battle. Hackers don’t get good practice with these because they either win on build order reactions in the early game or they eat it really hard in the mid game because of macro deficiency. It’s the same problem chronic cheesers get when forced into macro games; it’s not their comfort zone and often can’t keep a grip on the pace of the game.
@@aaabatteries9948 Not just that, having all that vision psychologically puts players into a defensive, risk-averse state because they see that they have the potential to react to anything and so that is what they must do. Instead of stepping out onto the map and making useful trades at bases they just try to win every encounter head-on and don't think about the broader strategy.
2:05 hero marine put a nearly time out mule out to die because it wasn't going to make the return mineral trip to CC if it had died holding a mineral that's few minerals lost, 5 head pro gamer.
can you show what happens when there would be no fog of war at all, have both players have full map view. Will they just swap units constantly to build a balanced mix of units that is the exact counters to the opponent? Will they just circle each other, avoiding confrontation since they already know if they would win each fight? Will it be just about micro, since that's what the opponent will see anyway . Will it just be stealth units galore or large slow units where you can't surprise your opponent anyway?
We've actually tried it a few times, I think the players needed more practice playing with it to adjust though: ruclips.net/video/u73es6uSqhw/видео.htmlsi=Z71eMGUU9xXsBEEZ | ruclips.net/video/dwjRc4jjCNU/видео.htmlsi=V3tUFABdltSCXhIU
it makes sense to me that uthermal consistently beats random GMs with cheese strats because he has the drop on them, he's been doing it for years at this point, and he was a pro. but a GM knowing they're fighting a pro, with such a strong advantage in their pocket, the fact they do so poorly is telling. i think if you gave a random global elite CSGO wallhacks they'd beat pros, very interesting how RTSs diverge there.
Ofc they can't, it's like +400/500 mmr from knowing everything, but you can't win with much better player. It's like expecting from gold player to beat diamond 2. It's impossible, he is just too slow for that. So it helps but maphack is not autowin.
Are there really people who go through the effort to maphack to win SC matches? I didn't even think it was possible, much less worth the time and effort
Yeah hackers might be able to take a cheeky game here or there, but once you know their hacking you just play super safely... well at least from some of our NA pro player's pov me being mid diamond I likely don't realize when I'm vs hackers because I don't have the game sense and if they're hacking they're probably so bad it doesn't matter lol
not an actual maphacker, just a GM who we gave maphacks and extra energy to see how well they could do and how Heromarine would offset those advantages
I really disagree with the premise of this video. Most map hackers aren't high GM because their 'real skill level' isn't even low GM. I remember observing a map hacker streaming his games on twitch; the real GMs in chat all judged his real skill level to be around 4000-4400 mmr, yet with hacks he was near 6000 mmr. An increase of nearly 2000. I'm certain even the worst GMs could easily reach top GM with map hacks. btw, this match was a terrible example. it's clear that loklok isn't experienced with map hacks and doesn't know how to abuse map hacks to their full potential. he could've went cc 1st, played ultra greedy, mass dropped, etc. instead he played the most bog standard tvt opener/ style. heromarine is top 5 in the world vs. that. lul.
The more complete premise is that one wouldn't get to be a GM and progress further if they rely on map hacks. They are a mental and mechanical block that prevents true progress once you start using them.
Perfect vision and scouting are only like 1/4 the effort required to actually play this game. This match even gave full unit vision as well and Large Gabriel was walking all over Lok. Your example is absolutely exaggerated though, 2000 mmr just for having knowledge that a pro player would get 95% of the time anyway? Doubt it. 500 max, and the hacker probably sucked hard at scouting to begin with.
Don't get me wrong you can get a big bump when they don't know you're hacking unlike here, but 2000MMR is a bit more than I'd guess. Maybe from 3.5k-5k with very specific builds that take advantage of the vision, but once you get to 5.5k+ you're going to see a massive drop off in those maphack gains, especially if the opponents start to remember your account is a hacker. Loklok definitely wasn't experienced with the vision, but the same concepts that Heromarine applied of constant, light pressure and forcing the opponent to react to many moves are almost always successful vs hackers
Maphack is crap better is stat hack showing how much the resourorces and what kind of units the oponnet has. Better hacks like auto drone production and send with global drone limit auto exp and other thigns are hidden and not sold out outside special happy groups.
Heromarine KNOWING he's playing vs a player with maphacks is quite huge. Running into someone you DON'T know is hacking can be much more difficult as it's only after a few suspect moves you realise and change your play accordingly. Next time I'll see if I can turn on the map reveal for the other player without letting the pro know and see how long they take to realise :D
Love this
Do this with both players on maphack but none of them know other has it ;)
I'm glad you said this because I was thinking the same thing. Heromarine not knowing might have resulted in some failed nuke runs, hidden bases being found immediately, or drops being prepared for.
Personally I don't feel like stream sniping or map hacking is going to help anyone beat a pro unless they are a pro (or at the level of a pro) themselves. It is the same as all of the shooter games where people use wall hacks, but still die immediately after a better player sees them. Getting the drop doesn't do much against superior skill, even though logistical information is far more valuable in SC than other games - still won't help you out play them 80% of the time.
It makes a big difference in decision making that Heromarine knows fully that he is playing against a maphacker.
Keep in mind that a real map hacker wouldn't have this much of an advantage. This is full visibility, but that would be too obvious as tanks are shooting without vision.
On the other side, it's also a very big advantage to actually know that the opponent can see everything
i guess since we can can't easily simulate a real maphack on the ladder, the next best thing is to try to balance the advantages(real player knows Opp is hacking, vs give the maphacker a little extra). but I think units having full vision is too OP, not close to real simulation.
:::someone should load map hacks up and stream snipe big players....and live stream it the whole time. For science. actually there are probably people that do just this, not for long tho.
This isn't that shocking to me. Pro gamers are a serious step above the elite players online. Certainly map hack has to be worth a significant amount, but it isn't going to enough of a difference to overcome a significant skill disadvantage. I wonder how much mmr map hack is worth?
Probably not much without a good build order. Cheese defence would be solid, but maphacks don’t make your reaction times better and can even make your decision making worse at times. From what I’ve seen maphackers have a tendency to turtle really hard and hyperfocus unit counters.
About three fifty
@@andrewferguson6901 God dammit loch ness monster i aint gonna give you no tree fiddy!
Its less of an advantage if you KNOW your opponent has maphack because you know they will react to what you do you can kind of mind game them. If you don't then you wont expect them to always know. So once you figure out they are cheating it gets easier.
@@TheMuffinman191 Not even for the cheese defense. I saw SC1 gamer Last rushing with initial 4 probes and beat a Terran player 5 game in row. You can't beat pro micro.
This is kind of like a college football team playing an NFL team but the college team knows all the play calling. The NFL players are still incredibly bigger, stronger, faster, and smarter
Loklok's sensor tower! 😁
So there are few things to do against hackers.
FPS - games, explosive weapons, and self sacrifice works, IE cooking the grenade.
RTS - top view - These games are limited to resource and production, and the early game if your on par, the enemy can never out produce you in the beginning, if you scout early you can see an all in, and make plans or expand, after the first fight, if your a little more defensive you can easily defend early game, mid game mightb e where yo ustruggle and notice that you can never get in without engagement. Hwoever, when you attack from many points its limited to apm of a person, regardless of what they see, so mothership recall, nydus, multiple drops, fake drops, since they can't see if the medi is full or not, yo ucna do am id air medi swap. defensiuve style works well, Terran basically has sensor towers and map hacks, protoss has observors, and zerg has creep, all of which gives vision and some maps have vision towers. So all this gives a normal player vision. Advatage of map hakcing is countering cheese or slower players brutally. ten seconds behind on cybernetics core will lose you the game, because they know... Map hackers if they were pro level, would know when you start research and snipe those buildings before completion, and or as zerg spit on those buildings over and over and then destroy it... I like swarm host in 3-4 used as terran tech snipes for their buidlings, as they are mostly undefended... anyways... in starcraft, you have vision and mobility and have many tools to view the map that costs relatively nothing so this limits the abiltiy of someone knowing everything, but the game is limited on rss, so there is a real game limit to collection rate etc. to what you can do.. mid game// late all players tend ot have every production building to adapt to the situation and certian lines will be maxed out. Seeing everything can also waste your apm... as your not macros or microing battle fronts easily... So meh. thats my thoguhts
OH, this is an intentional map hack game. I like the concept. Should also be very good practice for pros, right?
only for terran, cause terran has scan and can invest solely energy into scouting.
Zerg would lose ALL overlords/zerglings and protoss would lose 90% of observers
TvT is probably one of the most stressful matchups to play against maphacks due to the positional nature of the matchup. I think Zerg is probably one of the better ones due to how fast your army can roam the map and force the opponent to reposition + actively scout with cheap zerglings
Does loklok's tanks fire at max range?
@@EJames-nm4qt Yes they always have vision to shoot at max range.
It's funny how little map hacks truly help against a solid understanding of the game's fundamentals. When Map Hacks are used, it's often countered just by playing well and smartly. Just making sure the fundamentals are done well, having a good economy and macro skills, will trump most map hacks.
The only thing that maphack truly helps is making sure you will always have the superior setup. Right unit composition, understanding when you can take favorable trades, picking battlefields.
I tried this with my friends in AoE2. I let them maphack against me and they rarely took a game because i just played a much more solid game against them. There is also the benefit of knowing your opponent has maphack and i wouldn't play the strategies i did against them on ladder too much. Not that much raiding, focusing heavily on macro and defense until my opponent couldn't win favorably anymore.
But when the roles were reversed and i got to have maphack against my friends, i could win 1v3 extremely easy because i was already quite a bit better as a player and understood the game much more. So you're right, maphack heavily benefits the player that has a better understanding of the game, while knowing what your opponents are doing isn't that helpful if you can't use the information that well. But when i had it, they couldn't take a single fight that was good for them anymore, even when they tried to work together and pool their armies. Easy to avoid it when i know where it is.
Oh and maphacks is an insane confidence booster. I'm already quite the aggressive player but with maphacks that just went to another level that my friends couldn't deal with.
For the algorithm and for Big Gabe's 2nd screen Amaranth fund.
Hell yeah, can't wait for the Amaranth/Gabe hook up.
4:50,,,that cyclone range? is this pre-patch (~Oct 20 2023)
Honestly impressed by loklok keeping it so close for quite a while even with the MH pros are something else and they held their own!
Simple answer. Can't keep up because the mental stack is too high. Might be the APM as well but some hackers have fancy fingers.
The Main reason why maphackers cant beat pros is because they're just worse at the game, Their mechanics, micro and macro and just worse and the only thing they got going is that they don't have fog of war. Vision is pretty important but if you don't have the mechanics it isn't going to be of much use.
@@aaabatteries9948exactly. Your vision and scouting can be as good as possible but if your positioning and macro aren’t then it doesn’t matter. Obviously vision would help those in decision making, but execution is 3/4 the battle. Hackers don’t get good practice with these because they either win on build order reactions in the early game or they eat it really hard in the mid game because of macro deficiency. It’s the same problem chronic cheesers get when forced into macro games; it’s not their comfort zone and often can’t keep a grip on the pace of the game.
@@aaabatteries9948 Not just that, having all that vision psychologically puts players into a defensive, risk-averse state because they see that they have the potential to react to anything and so that is what they must do. Instead of stepping out onto the map and making useful trades at bases they just try to win every encounter head-on and don't think about the broader strategy.
I will never understand the demand for a “deer in the headlights” POV of the players 😂 🤷♂️
2:05 hero marine put a nearly time out mule out to die because it wasn't going to make the return mineral trip to CC if it had died holding a mineral that's few minerals lost, 5 head pro gamer.
can you show what happens when there would be no fog of war at all, have both players have full map view.
Will they just swap units constantly to build a balanced mix of units that is the exact counters to the opponent?
Will they just circle each other, avoiding confrontation since they already know if they would win each fight?
Will it be just about micro, since that's what the opponent will see anyway .
Will it just be stealth units galore or large slow units where you can't surprise your opponent anyway?
We've actually tried it a few times, I think the players needed more practice playing with it to adjust though: ruclips.net/video/u73es6uSqhw/видео.htmlsi=Z71eMGUU9xXsBEEZ | ruclips.net/video/dwjRc4jjCNU/видео.htmlsi=V3tUFABdltSCXhIU
Why is there a sensor tower for the map hacker?
Wondering the same thing. Maybe he built it on autopilot lol.
100% autopilot lol
Maybe to hide the fact that hes hacking.
Its crazy how big the skill difference is. Loklok is a gm and has maphacks and he basically stood no chance.
Interesting concept for a video
This is the sasuke vs killer bee match: sure you can see everything, doesn't mean you can move on time to stop it though 😂
Wow* HeroMarine With RAW*Power..
it makes sense to me that uthermal consistently beats random GMs with cheese strats because he has the drop on them, he's been doing it for years at this point, and he was a pro. but a GM knowing they're fighting a pro, with such a strong advantage in their pocket, the fact they do so poorly is telling. i think if you gave a random global elite CSGO wallhacks they'd beat pros, very interesting how RTSs diverge there.
Ahh HeroMarine's the best. No maphacker could possibly beat him in Starcraft 2, he's a pro
Thinking about it, I think I could beat HeroMarine if he got wrapped in duct tape. Maybe.
Fog of war is part of what makes sc2 fun but lol this is funny
is this on the old patch?
yep
not even mapchack saves you from big gabe
WP loklok or does map hacks show how much of a boost they give to a player(maybe like 500-1000 more mmr)
Man, I wish i would've got into StarCraft a lot earlier...
Fun as this was to watch, I feel it'll give maphackers the wrong idea. They'll get a false sense of justification from this.
lol
Pretty sure map hackers can justify just fine with or without a good reason. :)
Thats assuming they feel the shame in the first place.
They definitely don't.
@@TheMuffinman191
Ofc they can't, it's like +400/500 mmr from knowing everything, but you can't win with much better player. It's like expecting from gold player to beat diamond 2. It's impossible, he is just too slow for that. So it helps but maphack is not autowin.
You can see what a pro-player do but you can't act as smart and fast. Training and learning make the difference.
Maphack doesn't include knowledge and mechanics indeed..
Gg
Are there really people who go through the effort to maphack to win SC matches?
I didn't even think it was possible, much less worth the time and effort
Maphack = Just getting to watch yourself die.
Yeah hackers might be able to take a cheeky game here or there, but once you know their hacking you just play super safely... well at least from some of our NA pro player's pov me being mid diamond I likely don't realize when I'm vs hackers because I don't have the game sense and if they're hacking they're probably so bad it doesn't matter lol
even if they(include me) got hack infinite resource, they still cannot win pro player with that insane apm ,micro and macro skill
WHY? APM-EPM.
So THIS is why i lose all my ladder games!
Because your second screen is an Amaranth stream?
why? You play against pros all the time?
You just needed some cheerleaders
No way that was a maphacker
not an actual maphacker, just a GM who we gave maphacks and extra energy to see how well they could do and how Heromarine would offset those advantages
@@PiGstarcraft sorry I wasn’t clear. I was being cute 😜
Why diamond players with maphack can't beat grandmasters? try it vs a player that does a single drop or attack the entire game and see how that goes.
How can I maphack
Broodwar when?
Terran OP
I really disagree with the premise of this video. Most map hackers aren't high GM because their 'real skill level' isn't even low GM. I remember observing a map hacker streaming his games on twitch; the real GMs in chat all judged his real skill level to be around 4000-4400 mmr, yet with hacks he was near 6000 mmr. An increase of nearly 2000. I'm certain even the worst GMs could easily reach top GM with map hacks.
btw, this match was a terrible example. it's clear that loklok isn't experienced with map hacks and doesn't know how to abuse map hacks to their full potential. he could've went cc 1st, played ultra greedy, mass dropped, etc. instead he played the most bog standard tvt opener/ style. heromarine is top 5 in the world vs. that. lul.
The more complete premise is that one wouldn't get to be a GM and progress further if they rely on map hacks. They are a mental and mechanical block that prevents true progress once you start using them.
😂
hacks are kinda like ABS/traction control, they will help you not make blunders but it won't make you a better driver.
Perfect vision and scouting are only like 1/4 the effort required to actually play this game. This match even gave full unit vision as well and Large Gabriel was walking all over Lok.
Your example is absolutely exaggerated though, 2000 mmr just for having knowledge that a pro player would get 95% of the time anyway? Doubt it. 500 max, and the hacker probably sucked hard at scouting to begin with.
Don't get me wrong you can get a big bump when they don't know you're hacking unlike here, but 2000MMR is a bit more than I'd guess. Maybe from 3.5k-5k with very specific builds that take advantage of the vision, but once you get to 5.5k+ you're going to see a massive drop off in those maphack gains, especially if the opponents start to remember your account is a hacker.
Loklok definitely wasn't experienced with the vision, but the same concepts that Heromarine applied of constant, light pressure and forcing the opponent to react to many moves are almost always successful vs hackers
but he could beat if he would had more apm...
Maphack is crap better is stat hack showing how much the resourorces and what kind of units the oponnet has. Better hacks like auto drone production and send with global drone limit auto exp and other thigns are hidden and not sold out outside special happy groups.