13:42 We worded our first claim poorly, and the two citations we provided aren't strong enough to prove the definitive statement we made. We stand by our skepticism of the health benefits of e-ink vs LCD, but moving forward we'll be more careful with how we approach citations. You can learn more about our changes here: linustechtips.com/topic/1528891-this-is-the-worst-monitor-ever-and-that%E2%80%99s-the-point-dasung-paperlikeu-e-ink-display/?do=findComment&comment=16129832
First video back and you guys still took 9 days to issue a comment (That now 1 million people wont see) about you citing things incorrectly. Nice one guys, keep up the shoddy work!
@@ArabianStasiThey didn’t make an incorrect statement. All that was said was that the evidence used to prove their claims weren’t strong enough and they should’ve had more. Their view on it’s effect on eye strain and things alike are the same, the only problem is that they said they haven’t provided enough proof of that statement using two citations.
Stores already use them for that, ALDI and many others use them for shelf tags and Kohl's uses them to show you how much you are "saving". Also updatable over wifi.
In London they use use e-ink displays for some bus timetables, it's a great scenario as they don't refresh often, don't need colour, and it has low power consumption.
I don't know about this monitor, but I have an e-ink android tablet that I absolutely love. I only need to charge it once a month or so and use it for note taking, e-books, articles, basically anything that requires lengthy reading
E-Ink is one of those technologies that reminds you not every device has to be a swiss-army knife that can do literally anything. It's genuinely the coolest fusion of new and old technology I've ever seen because of how it fuses the benefits of paper and traditional displays so seamlessly, and it does some thing better than traditional display technologies ever could. But it is simply NOT suited towards general purpose monitor use.
@@KP-rm6dnTheres a niche market for it. Theres people out there that think that screens will hurt your eyes and gaming will make you blind or whatever. Trust me, theres pleanty of them out there
I actually saw a display like this being used in real world application It was rotated 90 (so a vertical display) and it was a shuttle bus schedule display, it would refresh every once in a while saying when the next one would stop. It was powered via a battery that was charged via a solar panel. This was at Vintgar Gorge in Slovenia at its parking lot. It created a very crisp and clear display and information for anyone who wished to view it. It had reasonable lighting, and it was useful. It was really cool.
I can definitely see someone who does a lot of research in their job use this as a secondary monitor. If it wasn't for the cost I would love to have it for studying.
yep mostly schools could use this monitor for sure but for gamers its a stay away from monitor i dont do school work anymore so i dont need a monitor like this
Heck, even as a gamer I could use one. I've already got the three gaming screens anyway so mounting this in portrait mode on the side could make for a nifty way to browse web pages or if I'm gaming have a walkthrough or the like open on the side.
It is. I have a 13" Boox Max Lumi (it's a e-ink tablet which can ALSO be used as a second monitor, though it's not the type use it was meant for) and I can already tell you it's definitely better than a regular - even bigger - monitor. I would love to switch to an actual e-ink monitor like the 25" Dasung PaperlikeU (or the 25" Boox Mira Pro) ma they're both honestly too expensive (like 2500 usd + taxes and shipping...)
The best use I could think of for e ink monitors are for class rooms for giving notes so you can still have something projected but with the lights still on.
Honestly, I freelance program, would love to have an e-ink on one side and a normal display on the other. Eye strain is a right pain when you're staring at words on a screen throughout the day! Something I haven't been able to fully solve for myself with different themes etc... Not to mention, 15 hz is probably enough for just coding etc. Unfortunately at >£1000 it is WAY too much, but would love to see this technology more! Edit: just got to the bit in the video where they talk about E-Ink having no evidence of helping eye strain. While that may be true, I do find reading and stuff significantly less straining overall on my kindle compared to the likes of my phone. E-Ink would absolutely help in my case, just from my experience. Also because I'll be programming at 2am just before bed haha
Secondary monitor is definitely the way to go. Having this on the side in vertical mode would make this perfect for like, documents, documentation, anything dealing with a lot of text. I was genuinely thinking about it before hearing that $2k price tag, big woof.
For e-ink displays, pages shouldn't be scrolled with the mouse wheel, it should be displayed a screen portion at a time. Like pressing page up/page down keys but without the scrolling animation. And if there's a way to script the display to refresh after doing page up/down.
Yes, this is what I did with my eInk screen. I didn't buy a Dasung, but their competitor so I don't know exactly how they have their drivers programmed but I do believe these are refreshed by "changes" rather than actual Hertz (every second regardless if anything changes on screen). It's been awhile since I used mine, though, due to annoyances with OSes not thinking about wanting to have one monitor set to light mode and the other to dark mode.
It is possible to write a script like that, just push a white borderless window in foreground and hide it again after you detected the input. The animation that might play while doint it can be easily disabled. Regardless of a script, there are a lot of windows settings that you would want to change and I am a bit dissapointed that LTT didn't look at them. Like I already said most of the animations and fancy stuff can be deactivated (which wouldnt have changed the video), however the high contrast accesiblity settings might have been worth looking at. In there you can for example change the colour of links and stuff (something they have pointed out that might be a problem in practice).
I'd consider mapping that to a few clicks of the scroll wheel (how many would be customizable). Though, yes, the idea of just having it refresh the screen when you scroll might work similarly. If it can start the refresh before the animation starts, it could work.
Having something like this as a secondary display for PDFs or similar could be pretty neat. But color support would still be really nice, and the cost has to come way down. At $500 or below, it could be an interesting option tho, esp if it's designed to be used primarily in portrait mode
As someone who consistently has ~10k pages worth of technical reference PDFs open all the time and >$100k of equipment for testing, an extra $2k to make it easier to read refs ain't bad.
I could see this being used for grandpa and grandma to comunicate trough email. like having a setup where the pc is always on, the screen is always on and signed in, and they just use it to email the family. maybe have a separate tab open where its always signed in to their newspaper website.
I have an e-ink tablet with a color display, it's much, much darker than my kindle screen, even the older models, it also tends to make real pictures look very red. Drawings and comics without too much shading works well enough.
Hi there, I've been in accessibility for more than 6 years now. The bit you missed in this video, was the desktop accessibility modes that Windows has. You have high contrast, you have grayscale, and various other modes that when paired with this monitor might actually improve the experience for someone with vision problems. I worked with a guy in the office who is extremely photosensitive, light literally hurts his eyes. It would be nice to see LTT gain some experience in this space, and maybe produce reviews aimed at the people this technology would benefit, rather than assuming a default "everyone is a full vision gamer" type. It would dramatically improve the quality of the content being delivered. Reach out to me if you need advice on this!
I do have friends that have similar issues to the situation you described (maybe not as extreme) and I genuinely think that there are better options for people with vision issues and products that are aiming at the specific needs, either through filters, specific modes, or even manufacturing products with older technology that benefits those individuals. Here we are talking for a 2k monitor that utilizes a very gimmicky technology that even in the case of being there for people with various sight issues and eyesight conditions it feels like a niche.
The issue is then I agree with Linus this is best used as a second monitor. I have one and tried to use it as a primary monitor when I was having migraines that were triggered by looking at a LCD screen. Once I got those under control with medication, I tried using this as a secondary screen but the issue is that operating systems don't have a way to set one monitor to be high contrast while keeping the other one standard. It makes for a really jarring experience because you need dark mode on one side and light mode on the other practically (otherwise going back and forth is awful between a super bright LCD to no light and obviously dark mode doesn't work on these) and OSes don't currently have a way to do that as far as I could figure out. I never bothered with Linux so maybe that is really the option I would need to do. Anyway, because of that, despite liking the screen, mine is currently sitting unused (with plans to eventually hook up a raspberry pi and make it a calendar/weather display in my entry).
I am using a previous-gen Dasung like that and it is better. Just be aware there is a weird bug in Windows high-contrast mode where certain things on the screen are not shown. For example, the archive/delete etc buttons and corresponding text in Gmail. And not just on e-ink, on any display.
15 FPS for eInk is amazingly good! I've been waiting a long time for this to improve. There are also color paper displays out there these days - not fantastic but definitely great for 0-power signage etc. Excited to see how this progresses :)
Actually over where i live bus station booths have started putting these monitors in for showing the schedule and active notices like ongoing sales and delays. Whole thing is driven off a small solar panel placed at the roof and it's really neat.
Guys, the addition of citations on this was amazing. This was probably already planned before the reflection week, but this is exactly the kind of addition that takes review content on youtube to the next level.
@@SaruEMSEducation No, you can cite what you want. It is up to the reader/audience to interrogate the source and the argument being made by the author.
@@Robkellysound It puts them out in the open though too so they cant say they didn't know, or just didn't do their due diligence. this is them essentially saying hey we did everything right, and now if they are doing something dirty they wont have a leg to stand on and it will be very obvious. its a sign of good faith and transparency. but they can just post anything in the citations but it would be figured out quickly.
When a colour display comes out, this sounds fairly useful when programming for long hours. You would just need a second monitor depending on the program youd be testing.
Holy crap. Now you gotta tonemap SDR, so it looks good on this display! Crazy. Windows used to have a 256 gray. I wonder if you used this monitor on an older Windows setup how that'd look.
A really common use case for old e-ink tablets I've found was for displaying static/rarely changing Web pages (or information pages). Where the cheep/old hardware was the main issue with repurposing the device. Having a dedicated large e-ink display that you can just plug into the nearest device and act as an interactive information portal is amazing
Kind of unfortunate that they didn't do a demo for command-line usage (since you can view data a page at a time with PageUp/Down instead of scrolling). Would be very nice for sysadmin type work, especially with a black on white shell theme.
That refresh rate is actually super impressive for an E-ink display! But...I think this tech is still best used exclusively for reading, specifically without scrolling. It has a long way to go before it can be suitable for use as a computer monitor, even if it's only for word processors.
It's actually great for handwritten notes too! Due to how the technology works you can have genuinely intent response times with the right type of pen (if it's optimised for it). You see this tech in the remarkable line of products and some android e ink like boox devices.... However it really only good for doodles ans writing, if you're writing a journal or math notes perfect, if you're trying to draw detailed work you'll quickly go into limitations
A teacher could turn one of these sideways and post schedule, events, or homework assignments for the week, and then set it against one of the classroom windows facing the hallway. A small business owner could set a few of these side by side and post a menu or prices. A library could use one of these to scan books to check out, or see what's on your library card, or browse the catalog to get the dewey decimal location of a book. And for personal use, I could write a high contrast application to display my Outlook calendar and run it on an Intel ComputeStick or something and mount it on my wall.
I hope this becomes a thing. As a programmer, I'd welcome a monitor based on eink. But there needs to be a bit more work on this first. I like reading on my old Kobo, but it seems to render fonts better than this monitor, somehow.
Actually.. no If you want to run your code and oops change one thing in code, you have to push the clear button near every 4 sec. It would be frustrating because the project window will be beurned in ince your run your app
@@kikihun9726 It would be fine if it could detect when it needed a refresh, like how kobo will do it every X pages or every chapter. It's certainly got a long way to go before I'd even look at it for anything other than reading currently.
Yeah it is the price that it holds back. If its cheaper, even though its not a grea experience for general purpose. But for more specific use case, this will going to sell decently. This will end up as a 2nd monitor mainly for documents, novels and even reading mangas.
and refresh the parts of the screen fast and the rest slower since on einks, the more pixels you refresh the slower it is. so refresh your peripheral vision slower
Eink will be usable for desktop once 4 things happen: 1. 30 Hz refresh rate (double this display's max) 2. Windows itself would have to support the technology, with things like the restoration of alternate text rendering modes and a 1bpp monochrome color depth mode, and the ability to tell the display which rectangle regions of the display buffer have been updated, so only those get erased/refreshed. 3. Smarter, and lower latency eink display controllers that can respond quickly to things like an eye tracker sensor. 4. Likely the panels used on these displays are driven at a fairly low voltage to keep energy usage as efficient as possible. The likely sacrifice here is picture clarity. A desktop display needs no such sacrifice. So the panel itself should likely be driven with a stronger current to increase the forces that move the eink particles around, within reason. This is likely to also make higher refresh rates possible, while avoiding an unacceptable amount of ghosting. There have to be eink displays rated for it, that won't break under that extra pressure. Doing this to an ordinary eink will significantly reduce the lifespan of the panel, since it's effectively a massive overclock + overvolt. It'd take significantly tighter manufacturing constraints to cancel out that drawback. Honestly, it's tough to imagine Microsoft supporting such a thing. A lot of Windows software has stopped respecting ClearType settings since it was introduced in XP, among them various of Microsoft's own frameworks and libraries, and monochrome mode was already on the way out by Windows 3.1, which dooms desktop einks to obscurity.
Oh! This would also be great for the linux command line and server use, and definitely for coding. But it needs to use some of the other e-ink tech that adds colours like red and yellow.
In theory I 100% agree, but the tech isn't fully there yet... For a Linux command line, sure this is awesome, but I don't think I could use this for coding with all of that ghosting. For the text itself, whatever, but I can imagine the ghosting getting really distracting, when you have LSP errors/messages or something getting displayed inline, and you always have to clear it manually to really see what's going on.
You could also just use... GUNNAR GLASSES! (Seriously though... their natural focus makes text easier to read and somehow... more contrasting even. I have regular glasses at home and Gunnar at work, and they work FANTASTIC.)
Good to see the citations in the description! Along with cross references in the video, it's good to see you putting action to what you discussed previously.
The second monitor usecase kinda sounds amazing; I typically have a second monitor dedicated to just displaying reference documents,having something like this for text could be amazing, especially with the bonus that it is one less glowing screen in my face.
not sure it's worth the cost. any LCD display at low backlight should be enough, and you can find cheap 60hz (that's more than enough if you don't play games TBO.) monitors nowadays in many sizes and resolutions.
I hoped they would test the scenario of using it side by side with an LCD monitor because when one monitor is conspicuously brighter it's distractive and probably makes it more straining and frustrating to focus on the reflective monitor instead, and I don't know how much the front light will help in this case.
exactly, while the cost is ridiculously high right now. If it were to ever become reasonable, that's how I pictured it's use case. Instead they just spent 15 minutes trying to use it for everything it's obviously not meant for.@@lyfiatea
As a long-time Kindle user the refresh on this thing is pretty impressive in terms of the speed. What's really interesting is the colour version, though. I read a fair few digital comics on my Fire, and I'd far prefer to be able to read them using e-ink. The question is whether those displays will have proper colour accuracy or whether we're just looking at 4 colours, which would still be a big jump.
Colour e-ink displays are washed out and limited, much like mass market paper comics are (or, at least, used to be, it's been a couple of decades since I read one), so I'd say they're fine. I'm not sure if they can produce small splotches of colour similar to to the way color was done in magazines and newspapers in the beforetime, but that could increase the apparent colour pallete.
4096 colors on kaleido 3 the tab ultra c is pretty awesome as far as eink tablets go Android 11 and at least 15 fps on the fastest refresh mode comics are pretty good on it in my opinion
Love that you covered an e-ink display. It is interesting that your criticisms of the monitor and DASUNG's claims are absolutely justified due to the lack of research on e-ink's effectiveness, but my anecdotal experience does back up a lot of their claims. I've been using a DASUNG as my primary monitor for >2 years and it has completely changed my life. I have some kind of medical condition where even adhering to the 20-20-20 rule I will suffer headaches with prolonged LED display usage. However, I can happily stare at this monitor for hours on end, and use it all day if combined with the 20-20-20 rule. It has comically increased my productivity and permitted a career change into coding-heavy work. Aside from high-fps gaming, I do everything (including watching this video) on this monitor. The experience is certainly sub-optimal, but I am completely used to it at this point and only notice the difference when forced to use an LED monitor.
damn, hearing about people that actually use these type of monitors is shocking for me. i dont think i could live with a monitor with no color settings, just grayscale.
I’m glad you have had a good experience but this technology has a long way to go to be viable for a wider market, it has promise but the contrast and frame rate needs to be improved, especially since this monitor isn’t as good as other e-ink screens. The best hope is that this inspires someone like amazon to do it better
@@MrDacedric it is but it’s a steam deck situation where a smaller scale product gives a proof of concept that’s a bit rough around the edges for a large company that’s already experienced with adjacent tech to swoop in and take everything learned from that initial product niche, clean it up and release it to a wider market, leaving the original product in the dust. I’m not saying that’s what’s happened yet with the steam deck either but it’s inevitable once the laptop manufacturers get invested into handhelds
This is something you can probably use as a dashboard of sorts without worrying about screen burn-in or having a bright-ass display at hight that you have to keep turning off. Repurposed kindles and smaller enink displays are already popular for this. EDIT: Just saw the cost, FTS, lol.
@@jalcome4201 And? That's an even bigger reason to use e-ink(if costs go down). You can leave it on 24x7 and forget about it without worrying about power consumption or burn in.
I remember that a professor in my university had an e-ink monitor in his office like 10 years ago. He used it in portrait mode to read papers and other pdfs. Of course it wasn't its primary monitor, as it was only used for reading. As an engineer I see this product quite usefull, because most of the references that I need to check are on PDF, and an e-ink display is more natural and comfortable for that, than a regular monitor.
Before the pandemic hit, my D&D game experimented with using a regular monitor for maps, instead of printing them, or drawing them on a wet-erase mat. The biggest problem was viewing angle and my thought since then was that some sort of large panel e-ink display would be perfect for that usecase
@@EmergencyChannel yeah, the tech is still too expensive for that, though 2k for a fully functional monitor is already an improvement over that same cost (or more) for just the panel without anything that drives it
@@hedgehog_dilemma That requires a much more permanent installation that a monitor that can be brought in just before the game, then returned to storage
I'm using their smaller version (13") for almost a year, it is a godsend for programming. Takes a little time to get used to but switching off all backlight is so easy on eyes.
I was thinking that would probably be one of the best case scenario for this monitor. If you want a display just to write. I don't think this was ever intended to browse the web or watch videos.
@@RomainDelmaire or if you stare at the same picture a lot like a flowchart, TODO list, tutorial etc. You can see that use case with their coloured eink monitor. Hope the tech improves a bit more for coding though.
It sounds like a lot of office work, typing word documents, filling out forums, sending email could be totally doable with this or the new color version. If it helps reduce eye strain and keep workers from wondering off to the internet, that's not as hard a business sell. @@RomainDelmaire
@@mihailmojsoski4202 turns out I can live without it! I've tried disabling it on my laptop before just to see how brain will react and after 2-3 days I felt no difference, source code is still perfectly readable.
A few years back I had some nasty eye issues and I could look only at e-ink screens for a long time. So I actually hope this tech will develop over time into a more usable version. I'm unsure about using it for gaming, but it could eventually become usable for work. Fingers crossed!
Look into a reflective LCD display if the issue returns. Because it's not backlit it doesn't hurt the eyes. I have a similar issue only being able to look at e-ink screens and a reflective LCD display is basically the better version of color e-ink displays. It has the high refresh rate advantages of LCD, with the reflective display advantages from e-ink. That said they're really fucking expensive and I wasn't willing to invest the money to actually buy one. The one I tried was a sunvisiondisplay RLCD monitor. But it was like $2k back then. Looks like it's about $1.5k rn
@@goosewoman thanks for the info, never heard about those kind of displays before. I can't afford to spend that much money on it right now, but I'll definitely keep it in mind.
I've been lucky enough to see this thing up close and working on my Labs tour during LTX! Even the "slow" 15 Hz refresh rate feels like a game changer for e-ink. For all its shortcomings I'm still very interested to see what some more R&D can accomplish for this tech in a few years!
A monitor like this was already available a fee years ago IIRC. At this point I think the cost is a bigger issue than the tech. I would have one of these as a second monitor right now if it was affordable. 2k is too much.
@Deathrape-if4kl Yeah, but the point of this kind of panel is to limit the amount of light that blasts your retinas. It's not about the "look" of the panel as much as it's about the panel producing virtually no light aside from the optional front light, reducing the amount of eye strain and fatigue. You can't get a similar result on other panels because they produce an image by producing light, whereas E-ink produces an image by creating a reflective surface.
I like that the editor made sure the labels were in the same orientation and order as what they were labelling onscreen. Like the plugs on the bottom of the monitor, the labels were vertical and in the same order as the plugs on screen and it made it super easy to know what everything was
In a smaller portrait format this could be really good for a dedicated word processing/study/research monitor, or to have off to the side in a gaming set up to monitor text chats or voice calls. I'd love maybe a 17" portrait version of this for that sort of thing.
I remember when I was studying for a technical certification they talked about e-ink readers. I got curious and googled if there was such a thing as a e-ink computer monitor and found the monitor you found. I'm glad you made a video on it. I'm sure there's some use for it somewhere I'm just not sure where.
as a second or third monitor I could totally see this being awesome. I'd love it as a 45 degree desk monitor below my normal monitors to throw reference material onto.
Actually our local supermarket is using tiny color e-ink displays on each product to show prices. For long time I thought its just normal paper like in all other stores, but last week I saw it changing. It looks amazing, and since e-ink does not use power when not changing content it can save a lot of money on both power delivery for those devices and employee labor for manually swapping price tags whenever price changes. And its important since here in Poland our inflation is so insane that prices of everything is changing at least once a month, and sometimes even more often.
bruh poland's inflation has nothing to do with Argentina's. Here prices change every week, or days... we're screwed, you've got 10% anual inflation, we... 100+% 🤯
This content style is something I missed from LTT for many years. Entertaining and viewers learnt something. There were many more entertaining hardware reviews in recent years, but viewers didn't learn anything in those. At some point, I only stayed on because I didn't find any creator doing better in this audience segment. This is a very good video. Welcome back LTT.
I know Linus keeps repeating about ensuring learning outcomes even on the "look at this cool thing" videos. I wouldn't say they haven't done it in a while, but things like "what's a JBOD", or "why not use a SAN" are things they've covered a couple of times before so the recent videos weren't as informative for long-time fans, but we're still educational for newer or occasional viewers.
This would be a super useful second or better yet third monitor. As someone who reads a ton of multi hundred page PDF for work, this would be very useful. The documents are usually already in black-and-white, the pages are large and full of text, and I could honestly get away with one hertz refresh, and I wouldn’t have to be converting it to KindlePDF and sending it via the cloud to read it on my Kindle, which is what I’m currently trying to do and is not always secure enough for internal documents.
Literally checked 10 mins ago if LTT hadn't posted any new video cuz I was bored. The second I decide to hit the sack, I check my phone, and here I am. Glad to see you back Linus !
Is that a new buzzer alert 0:25 to go along with the "error" correction from the words spoken? I like it! its such a meaninless error that changes nothing about purchasing descisions as anyone who is likely to want EInk isnt going to care of its 3000 or 3200 pixels if they are doing audio only listening, but its enough of a audible trigger to say "hey, something was different on screen". Keep it up!
The color version would be great as a dashboard monitor. Dashboards only need to refresh every few seconds, or so, so it's the perfect use case. But the price is insane. It would make sense once it goes down to $200.
@@Reverend_Salemah sorry, I didn't mean car dashboards, although that's a pretty cool idea. I was more thinking about monitoring stations, which display lots of charts / graphs, financial data, user usage data, traffic data, etc.
I got a color eink tablet because I wanted syntax highlighting for code. B&W sucked for that reason. Text doesn't need to refresh that quickly as long as letters show up quickly.
Ever since I got myself a kindle years ago, I keep checking if we're there yet with eink displays for computers; specifically for coding. this particular brand and monitor has been under my radar for some time, so this is probably the most useful video I've ever seen from this channel, in my own subjective set of interests of course, thanks. On a related note, I once bought an off brand eink replacement screen for my friend's kindle when her screen was cracked. the most interesting thing about that transaction was that the screen came in with ads already on it haha. they flashed an ad and shipped it as is, which I think is ingenious since it needs energy to change the image, not to keep it on the screen.
The colour version will be interesting, especially as a second monitor where you have documents loaded for reference (or to read while making notes, like a textbook).
I'm hoping that they improve the tech and we see more displays like this. It could be especially helpful for programmers and anyone who has to read a lot at their desk. I can see using one as a second screen, especially if they added at least one or two more colors, and they have been working on developing such screens.
I love e ink, I would honestly use this for typing & spreadsheet work type stuff. I think there's a lot of people who do written and editing based work who stare at screens for, well, most of their waking life and this might be a huge eye saver as a second monitor (if it weren't goofy expensive)
How does it actually save your eyes though? Just the sky outside is probably so many times brighter than your monitor, so does looking at the sky also hurt your eyes?
@@venturoes1912 not a clue. but I can say from a utilitarian perspective I feel better spending hours reading a book, drawing, or reading on an e-ink tablet than looking at a computer screen. Not like I feel particularly bad looking at a computer screen - I'm not someone who thinks its going to rot your brain or do some conspiracy theory shit or whatever, but there is a difference. Not a $2000 difference though lol.
It is perfect for store displays showing prices, menus, airport arrival and departure displays, advertisements, etc. Basically mostly static things or things that dont need to refresh too often. I already see eink type displays used at Kohl's department stores for shelf pricing.
I have wondered for years why there weren't e-ink monitors for coders and programmers as a side monitor. I always figured it would be way easier to code and program using one. I do a ton of MSSQL work and would love an e-ink monitor for looking at the tables and dbs and query editors.
I also think they could be ideal for programming. If IntelliJ specifically supported them, for example, so that the text looks as crisp as on an e-book reader, then I would see a lot of potential for companies buying them and consequently the price becoming more reasonable.
When I'm working on an electronics project I always have a dozen datasheets opened. A dedicated, vertical, e-ink screen would be great for displaying them besides the main monitor. I am actually really surprised that there is no vertical mode on this one.
They showed that it could tilt to vertical on its stand and since its a monitor you just change the setting in windows and bam you have a vertical e-ink monitor.
Yea it would at least in theory, be very workable as a sort of secondary "where do a i store all my crap"-screen. But it seams like.. well its not quite there yet. They really need to make it like partially refresh all the time.
There are definitely good uses for things like this, especially a colour version. That it saves energy is also convenient for public use displays that are always on - think of a directory in a mall, for example. You don't need a high refresh rate on those. Some stores, like Chapters/Indigo in Canada, also provide computers to customers so they can search inventory and location. E-ink monitors could be useful there, too.
ok, but this same concept but its thousands of extra tiny flipdots (maybe sometime in hte future we can make the motors small enough to function at a near led scale) mainly again just for commercial applications and reading. Would be cool to see what the Shrek movie would look like on a flipdot display that condensed though.
The colour version sounds really awesome for programming and writing. I absolutely love e-book readers and being able to do more with that technology would be great. Plus such a monitor with a raspberry Pi (or something similar) would be very low power consumption for simple writing/programming. Will definitely follow the development.
Thanks for using citations at really doing research. This video shows that you really focused on quality and actually did improve the things that were a mess before. Good job, now stick with this sentiment! :D
Really appreciated that as well! So many people make wild claims - particularly around things affecting health - that it's important to show proper research citations to support said statements/claims. Of course there will always be the arm-chair expert.
This video is most likely part of the 2 week backlog that LMG always tries to maintain. This is the exact same quality of video that would've come out before the meltdown happened
@stormbringer7542 I don't recall ever seeing citations before though. It's likely they filmed and prepped it before the last couple weeks, then went back and re-edited to add citations before publishing. I don't expect the filming style and quality to change though...that was never really the problem though (excluding presenter stated errors during reviews and first looks)
I like the additional research into the marketing claims and especially the citations! - The way to go! I guess this was already something on the way, but with more time for each video, i hope this can become a regular thing! Oh and I love the Techquickies about some more sidetopics on technologies too, with citations if possible!
In 100% text apps, like code editing or command prompt usage. I can see this being lovely to use. If it was cheap, I’d definitely consider it for coding.
If they could get the refresh rate up to 30fps I wouldn't mind having the color version of this as my 3rd monitor. It definitely seems like a technology that could be really cool if given enough time to develop.
This makes me really wish that IMOD displays, Qualcomm branded them as Mirasol displays, hadn't been given up on so quickly. They might not have been able to beat e-ink in ereader tablets, but since it could support a higher refresh rate and without all of the flashing it would have been perfect for this kind of application.
The main problem is having to stop and clear the thing anytime there is a significant change in scenery. A more seemless method of clearing select areas of the monitor automatically would do wonders
9:59 This is one of the reasons the WCAG accessibility standards require links and buttons to not only be distinguished by colors. It must have some other indication like a background, border or underline to assist in differentiating from normal text content.
It's a setting you can just force in most browsers. I have a customised colour profile in my browser as part of the Accessibility Options for sites that don't have a dark mode. Applying the profile forces specific fonts, colours and the likes. You can use the same thing for force underlining hyperlinks and such. In the end all of those things are decided client side, so what you set in your browser can't just be overridden by a site's CSS crap.
@@22Tie22 that’s cool I didn’t know places were already rolling out that kind of stuff! I haven’t seen any in the US anywhere but it’s great to see some at least happen to use it, seems like such a good idea.
I love the citation segment in the description! Keep it going guys! I love videos with less Tomfoolery and a more focused approach, while staying chill. This is the way to regain the community's goodwill!
I love E ink and the way they look, and would love to see an E ink monitor, but this is not it, yet. For now, it’ll stay regulated to things that don’t need more than one refresh every couple minutes, like temp sensor displays
I had no idea panels of that size were anywhere ready. Cool! E-ink is absolutely awesome for some things. A few of my local grocery chain stores have started using e-ink price tags and it's awesome. Even for someone whose sight is still good they're a substantial UX improvement, I've found. Edit: Also yay, crediting them in video itself is a nice touch, good job you!
@@itskdog Why are you, and apparently 36 people who likes your comment acting like they can't see Linus's comment? It's clearly the second reply... Was half the subscribers shadowbanned or something?
If you ran a custom OS with this monitor it could work well. Like a high contrast mode. Now if you go into windows and setup a high contrast mode you can make it work. Also if they had it setup so there was an LED matrix behind the screen as a backup for color with a wash plate designed to blend in the pixils for hyperlinks or for color as a way to distinguish contrast in video or game mode. That should help a lot. It may cost more but i think it would yeild better results.
I'm actually pretty amazed at how well this handles video, like obviously there are lots of ghosting and contrast issues but it looked far smoother than I was expecting.
and when you have about a mil audiences per video, everything that come out of that video must be cited, or proofed so to say. that's the matter of clean content!
The differences in the details in the new content is clear as day. Great work! Excited to see more videos with this level of thoroughness and attention to detail
Although it wasn't technically a dektop monitor, a few years ago, Technology Connection's Alec did a series of videos with his experiences on an e-ink tablet with HDMI input. So there were already products on the market targeting that niche, and I'd think it would be cool to have you compare them if you end up doing the follow-up video you mentioned.
As someone who had severe eye pain from constant monitor use, I can say that I bought a couple of e-ink devices and while there *are* drawbacks, they were the only screens I could use for a few months without pain. I let my eye issues get bad enough that just looking in the direction of a normal monitor that was on was giving me sharp pain. Now my color e-ink tablet is running my home assistant dashboard, and my BOOX Mira Pro desktop monitor is connected to a 10W stick PC for other larger dashboards. Great secondary uses.
I actually think that this could be a good addition to an existing setup, as a third, fourth, etc monitor, dedicated for reader purposes. Reading large text on normal monitors always seems to be stressful on the eyes, and I've always kinda liked the E-ink idea.
As they said in the video it'll still be straining the eyes. The big advantage of e-ink is power consumption. That's why it is used in e-readers: you can make the batteries small and the devices easier to hold.
@@shinyhappyrem8728 From experience working in help desk, and seeing the setups a lot of people use at work, I tend to think that a big part of eye strain issues people have is running their monitors too damn bright. Almost everyone I saw at work was more or less blasting their eyes, and had been doing it for years. A few of them agreed to let me calibrate their monitor brightness with the ambient light levels to test if it would help, and all of those reported less issues with their eyes and more comfort long term. In a couple of cases we went from like 250-300 nits down to 100-150 nits. Sample size of only a couple of dozen all in all, so not conclusive by any means of course.
I know someone who can’t look at LCD screens (something something eye something) and this would be PERFECT for them. I’m guessing that’s their target user base.
The possibilities this presents in the construction field is very interesting. I work in the steel industry that produces hundreds of thousands of technical drawings for the manufacturing personnel to produce off of. Most of the current industrial displays and tablets fall way short of replacing the paper plans by lack of contrast or brightness. This might work as a solution for stations in a shop environment if it can stand up to the conditions. Do you know anything about the durability in dust/water/or heat resilience?
honestly this would be fantastic for older folks, my grandma doesn't like sitting at the computer a lot, she's just there to check in with some family stuff occasionally, maybe email my family, if they could make the price reasonable, e-ink displays would be my first choice for any older family members
No it wouldn't. For someone who barely uses a monitor, this has absolutely no benefit. The only niche use case is for people who do a ton of reading or text based tasks all day
It will never be as cheap as LCDs. It's actually really difficult to produce eInk screens this large (think 4090 chips being harder than 4060s). It's a niche product for a niche audience which further keeps the price high, so unless you really need the power savings, it's not for occasional/light users.
I know they're saying it's terrible as a video monitor but that looks so good compared to what I expected. E-ink has come a long way and I think that's very interesting since it doesn't have a big market compared to the other technologies Edit; that cost way more than I thought lol
I think that it can be awesome for programming, especially if you work the "old" way with terminals and simple text editors like Vim. I have actually been looking for things like this but mainly because of the price I have not bought any, the model in the video cost $1748, you can literally buy a decent gaming laptop for the same price. Their 13" model is cheaper but still very expensive for what it can do.
It should come as an option for laptops. Laptops are (usually) not meant for gaming anyway, and get (occasionally) used in environment where you can't control the lighting. Used to work for a company which had a park, but no AC in our office, so, yeah, I did quite a bit of work in the park. Constantly moving around with the sun, trying to find a new place with a dark background and no direct sunlight, to boldly go where no sunbeam has gone before...oh, wait, forget that. Well, still no fun. Mainly read documentation (PDFs) and coded using my favorite text editor. Which is, since I'm awesome, vi. Obviously. With an e-ink display, I might even consider ed, though. Google "ed man man ed" if you feel the uncontrollable urge to be enlighted. It's never too late.
@@dstinnettmusic I believe they call it an IDE. It is basically a giant monolithic program that works as a text-editor, a compiler, a file manager, a version controller, a build system, a debugger and a package manager and it is all done in a completely graphical environment. I know that this novel concept sounds unimaginable but there are people out there actually using it, and it horrifies me just to think about it.
Welcome back, y'all. The citations are a fantastic addition. Great video. Maybe if someone made a normal monitor that also has an E-ink mode, that might work. But a dedicated monitor just for E-ink? Bleh.
You clearly don't understand the technology if you think it's possible for a normal LCD to also have anything close to an eInk mode... That said, there's a company that makes an LCD monitor with a side small eInk monitor attached. There's also a company that makes reflective LCDs (Sun Valley Displays) that's the closest thing you'd get to a normal monitor having an "eInk mode" but it requires a whole reflective layer that's unique to the company and quite a bit of thought to the lighting environment. Dunning Kruger moment?
I think the RUclips algorithm is in love with E-Ink technology at the moment. I have been getting recommended a video explaining why this technology is so slowly developing all day and now this one despite it being under ten minutes since it was uploaded.
I have an e-ink Android tablet, and I absolutely love it. Sure, you’re not going to play games, but for reading websites, or taking notes, or doing crosswords, it’s perfect. I can see how it would be good for a secondary monitor. Btw, ONYX, the maker of the tablet I use also makes e-ink monitors. Would be good to get a side-by-side with this one.
I also use an onyx tablet and was thinking about the fact that it auto refreshes when you scroll on webpages. I wonder if their monitors do the same, or if that's only possible because as an all in one unit the tablet is better able to know what type of content it is displaying.
I would love to hear future Dasung eink screens reviews also include a section "From a Programmers perspective". I like the idea of having an eink "programmer monitor" as my 2nd... or rather as my 4th monitor :D (currently got a 3 monitor setup now that needs to be expanded)
I can't see LTT focusing on that given their focus on being "a bit of everything" and so quite broad, but I wouldn't be surprised if a more niche programming-focused channel might take a look if they had the budget to afford one or if a company that makes E-ink monitors were to send a review sample.
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13:42 We worded our first claim poorly, and the two citations we provided aren't strong enough to prove the definitive statement we made. We stand by our skepticism of the health benefits of e-ink vs LCD, but moving forward we'll be more careful with how we approach citations. You can learn more about our changes here: linustechtips.com/topic/1528891-this-is-the-worst-monitor-ever-and-that%E2%80%99s-the-point-dasung-paperlikeu-e-ink-display/?do=findComment&comment=16129832
First video back and you guys still took 9 days to issue a comment (That now 1 million people wont see) about you citing things incorrectly. Nice one guys, keep up the shoddy work!
@@ArabianStasi
They didn't cite things incorrectly lmao.
Keep up the poor reading comprehension!
They will never change
@@ArabianStasiThey didn’t make an incorrect statement. All that was said was that the evidence used to prove their claims weren’t strong enough and they should’ve had more. Their view on it’s effect on eye strain and things alike are the same, the only problem is that they said they haven’t provided enough proof of that statement using two citations.
JFC guys come on
I'd guess that the power consumption is minimal. Could be usable for in commercial settings like shopfront displays, menus, kiosks, etc.
@@GH0STST4RSCR34Mahhh that's already a thing mate. These would replace existing monitors in this scenario
Stores already use them for that, ALDI and many others use them for shelf tags and Kohl's uses them to show you how much you are "saving". Also updatable over wifi.
There is zero power consumption unless you have a backlight or are changing the image.
In London they use use e-ink displays for some bus timetables, it's a great scenario as they don't refresh often, don't need colour, and it has low power consumption.
@@alpham777 Came here specifically to mention shop price tags. Kudos for beating me to it.
Welcome back! It's horrible, I want one.
Why? 🫠
@@smmmokin just to see how bad it is in person 😂
You will see a cat video within 2 weeks 😮
I don't know about this monitor, but I have an e-ink android tablet that I absolutely love. I only need to charge it once a month or so and use it for note taking, e-books, articles, basically anything that requires lengthy reading
Great for dark room usage!
E-Ink is one of those technologies that reminds you not every device has to be a swiss-army knife that can do literally anything. It's genuinely the coolest fusion of new and old technology I've ever seen because of how it fuses the benefits of paper and traditional displays so seamlessly, and it does some thing better than traditional display technologies ever could. But it is simply NOT suited towards general purpose monitor use.
These guys are obviously clueless, and expect it replace a normal monitor.
@@KP-rm6dnsaying that these guys are clueless is like saying that Einstein was clueless.
now thats truly a funny statment, and a real insult to Einstein. @@RickertBrandsen
@@KP-rm6dnTheres a niche market for it. Theres people out there that think that screens will hurt your eyes and gaming will make you blind or whatever. Trust me, theres pleanty of them out there
Pricing is a big barrier
I actually saw a display like this being used in real world application
It was rotated 90 (so a vertical display) and it was a shuttle bus schedule display, it would refresh every once in a while saying when the next one would stop.
It was powered via a battery that was charged via a solar panel.
This was at Vintgar Gorge in Slovenia at its parking lot.
It created a very crisp and clear display and information for anyone who wished to view it. It had reasonable lighting, and it was useful. It was really cool.
Some bus stops have them in Taipei as well. They work very well especially when it's sunny outside
@@taiwanjon2583 yup i was reading this and was like i remember that from back in taiwan
in the UAE too
Linus with anime eyes is now my desktop wallpaper
Hopefully your Desktop doesnt drop your games
new deskpad, or dbrand skin for sure 😂😂
Lol😂
lol xD
Frozen pointing Linus is mine
I can definitely see someone who does a lot of research in their job use this as a secondary monitor. If it wasn't for the cost I would love to have it for studying.
yep mostly schools could use this monitor for sure but for gamers its a stay away from monitor i dont do school work anymore so i dont need a monitor like this
Heck, even as a gamer I could use one. I've already got the three gaming screens anyway so mounting this in portrait mode on the side could make for a nifty way to browse web pages or if I'm gaming have a walkthrough or the like open on the side.
First thing I thought.
sooo many terrible academic websites with bright white backgrounds. Can't tell you how often i've seared my eyes staring at that stuff.
True! I'd love this at my work, which mostly involves research aka lots of reading, combining info and answering emails.
Love to see the citations, really shows that you're taking accuracy and transparency even more seriously. A strong return as I'd hoped. Welcome back!
This would be absolutely great for writers. You have to look for a long time at a mostly static screen. This would really be great on the eyes
It is. I have a 13" Boox Max Lumi (it's a e-ink tablet which can ALSO be used as a second monitor, though it's not the type use it was meant for) and I can already tell you it's definitely better than a regular - even bigger - monitor. I would love to switch to an actual e-ink monitor like the 25" Dasung PaperlikeU (or the 25" Boox Mira Pro) ma they're both honestly too expensive (like 2500 usd + taxes and shipping...)
@lorenzocrescentini7476 Yeah i love my boox, and would unironically want one of these monitors for spreadsheets and documents
The best use I could think of for e ink monitors are for class rooms for giving notes so you can still have something projected but with the lights still on.
I am thinking about banking or administration. Having this for 8 hours in front of u will certainly be less straining on ur eyes than a normal desktop
this reminds me of the original kindle where it had the best brightness and white color for reading digital books
Honestly, I freelance program, would love to have an e-ink on one side and a normal display on the other. Eye strain is a right pain when you're staring at words on a screen throughout the day! Something I haven't been able to fully solve for myself with different themes etc... Not to mention, 15 hz is probably enough for just coding etc. Unfortunately at >£1000 it is WAY too much, but would love to see this technology more!
Edit: just got to the bit in the video where they talk about E-Ink having no evidence of helping eye strain. While that may be true, I do find reading and stuff significantly less straining overall on my kindle compared to the likes of my phone. E-Ink would absolutely help in my case, just from my experience. Also because I'll be programming at 2am just before bed haha
Don't give teachers ideas
Great that will make school even more depressing 🙄
Secondary monitor is definitely the way to go. Having this on the side in vertical mode would make this perfect for like, documents, documentation, anything dealing with a lot of text. I was genuinely thinking about it before hearing that $2k price tag, big woof.
Yeah, I think for $2k, you might as well get a 4k OLED screen, it'd give a good experience.
It's curved. I don't think you wanna used a curved monitor in portrait mode
You can buy the screen standalone much cheaper, but you would have to diy it, years ago i was looking at them for a raspberry pi
I don't think they could have done much about the price e-ink screens price is controlled by one company
Maybe, maybe not. It may turn out to be very annoying to skim through a 100page documentation pdf with low refresh rate.
For e-ink displays, pages shouldn't be scrolled with the mouse wheel, it should be displayed a screen portion at a time. Like pressing page up/page down keys but without the scrolling animation. And if there's a way to script the display to refresh after doing page up/down.
I mean, I guess you could write a program that covered the screen in white every second or so. They said it has one built in for every 30 seconds.
Yes, this is what I did with my eInk screen. I didn't buy a Dasung, but their competitor so I don't know exactly how they have their drivers programmed but I do believe these are refreshed by "changes" rather than actual Hertz (every second regardless if anything changes on screen). It's been awhile since I used mine, though, due to annoyances with OSes not thinking about wanting to have one monitor set to light mode and the other to dark mode.
It is possible to write a script like that, just push a white borderless window in foreground and hide it again after you detected the input. The animation that might play while doint it can be easily disabled. Regardless of a script, there are a lot of windows settings that you would want to change and I am a bit dissapointed that LTT didn't look at them. Like I already said most of the animations and fancy stuff can be deactivated (which wouldnt have changed the video), however the high contrast accesiblity settings might have been worth looking at. In there you can for example change the colour of links and stuff (something they have pointed out that might be a problem in practice).
I'd consider mapping that to a few clicks of the scroll wheel (how many would be customizable).
Though, yes, the idea of just having it refresh the screen when you scroll might work similarly. If it can start the refresh before the animation starts, it could work.
That completely defeats the purpose of this as a desktop monitor. They shouldn't advertise it as such if they don't expect it to be tested as one.
Having something like this as a secondary display for PDFs or similar could be pretty neat.
But color support would still be really nice, and the cost has to come way down.
At $500 or below, it could be an interesting option tho, esp if it's designed to be used primarily in portrait mode
As someone who consistently has ~10k pages worth of technical reference PDFs open all the time and >$100k of equipment for testing, an extra $2k to make it easier to read refs ain't bad.
I could see this being used for grandpa and grandma to comunicate trough email. like having a setup where the pc is always on, the screen is always on and signed in, and they just use it to email the family. maybe have a separate tab open where its always signed in to their newspaper website.
I have an e-ink tablet with a color display, it's much, much darker than my kindle screen, even the older models, it also tends to make real pictures look very red. Drawings and comics without too much shading works well enough.
Hi there, I've been in accessibility for more than 6 years now. The bit you missed in this video, was the desktop accessibility modes that Windows has. You have high contrast, you have grayscale, and various other modes that when paired with this monitor might actually improve the experience for someone with vision problems.
I worked with a guy in the office who is extremely photosensitive, light literally hurts his eyes.
It would be nice to see LTT gain some experience in this space, and maybe produce reviews aimed at the people this technology would benefit, rather than assuming a default "everyone is a full vision gamer" type.
It would dramatically improve the quality of the content being delivered.
Reach out to me if you need advice on this!
Cool.
Yes
8:39 they did say that for some type of users it can work.
I do have friends that have similar issues to the situation you described (maybe not as extreme) and I genuinely think that there are better options for people with vision issues and products that are aiming at the specific needs, either through filters, specific modes, or even manufacturing products with older technology that benefits those individuals. Here we are talking for a 2k monitor that utilizes a very gimmicky technology that even in the case of being there for people with various sight issues and eyesight conditions it feels like a niche.
Lol
I would love to see it being used with a Windows contrast theme, so that the handling of color is dealt with on OS side and not the display.
Would be better as well for Windows to have E-Ink mode which makes the UI theme optimized for black and white E Ink display and no animations.
The issue is then I agree with Linus this is best used as a second monitor. I have one and tried to use it as a primary monitor when I was having migraines that were triggered by looking at a LCD screen. Once I got those under control with medication, I tried using this as a secondary screen but the issue is that operating systems don't have a way to set one monitor to be high contrast while keeping the other one standard. It makes for a really jarring experience because you need dark mode on one side and light mode on the other practically (otherwise going back and forth is awful between a super bright LCD to no light and obviously dark mode doesn't work on these) and OSes don't currently have a way to do that as far as I could figure out. I never bothered with Linux so maybe that is really the option I would need to do. Anyway, because of that, despite liking the screen, mine is currently sitting unused (with plans to eventually hook up a raspberry pi and make it a calendar/weather display in my entry).
Also did they did not disable clear type subpixel rendering, you can clearly see that on the word processing.
come on dude this is LTT you know you shouldn't expect a lot of thought or anything put into their videos
I am using a previous-gen Dasung like that and it is better. Just be aware there is a weird bug in Windows high-contrast mode where certain things on the screen are not shown. For example, the archive/delete etc buttons and corresponding text in Gmail. And not just on e-ink, on any display.
15 FPS for eInk is amazingly good! I've been waiting a long time for this to improve. There are also color paper displays out there these days - not fantastic but definitely great for 0-power signage etc. Excited to see how this progresses :)
yeah i could see these things replacing normal displays that have taken over for store signage
Yeah my kindle back in the day was like 4fps.
what application?
This would be an ideal retro laptop LCD simulator. Set the resolution to 640x480, load up Windows 3.0... party like it's 1991!
@@shanez1215 Damn you a fast reader
(Pretty sure a kindle only refreshes when you click the button)
Actually over where i live bus station booths have started putting these monitors in for showing the schedule and active notices like ongoing sales and delays. Whole thing is driven off a small solar panel placed at the roof and it's really neat.
Guys, the addition of citations on this was amazing. This was probably already planned before the reflection week, but this is exactly the kind of addition that takes review content on youtube to the next level.
@@SaruEMSEducation No, you can cite what you want. It is up to the reader/audience to interrogate the source and the argument being made by the author.
@@Robkellysound It puts them out in the open though too so they cant say they didn't know, or just didn't do their due diligence. this is them essentially saying hey we did everything right, and now if they are doing something dirty they wont have a leg to stand on and it will be very obvious. its a sign of good faith and transparency.
but they can just post anything in the citations but it would be figured out quickly.
its lame and takes too much screen
No, it wasn't - if you think that you are delusional.
That entire video was done before their production break.
When a colour display comes out, this sounds fairly useful when programming for long hours. You would just need a second monitor depending on the program youd be testing.
Yeah without colour it really does have limited uses.
I could use light mode! Dude, I wish Linus tested it with JetBrains or VScode. Both of those handle sub pixels. The color one could be amazing.
Yeah I was thinking about how awesome a color version would be for programming. But for a more wallet friendly price though...
Also seems brilliant for SAAS product admins, such as Salesforce Admins who stare at a fairly static web browser most of the time
it's good for displaying picture that was changing every hours,
therefore you can set your mood easily
Holy crap. Now you gotta tonemap SDR, so it looks good on this display! Crazy. Windows used to have a 256 gray. I wonder if you used this monitor on an older Windows setup how that'd look.
@LTT - seems like a plan for another video.
Just run Windows 3.11
3.11 lacks hdmi support ;)
@@nietmijnechtenaam2477 No prob, use a VGA -> HDMI Adapter :D
It's perfect for DOS!
A really common use case for old e-ink tablets I've found was for displaying static/rarely changing Web pages (or information pages). Where the cheep/old hardware was the main issue with repurposing the device. Having a dedicated large e-ink display that you can just plug into the nearest device and act as an interactive information portal is amazing
Kind of unfortunate that they didn't do a demo for command-line usage (since you can view data a page at a time with PageUp/Down instead of scrolling). Would be very nice for sysadmin type work, especially with a black on white shell theme.
My thoughts exactly, seems like an excellent arch linux monitor
but only CRT hurt eyes, now monitors hurt your eye because you look a lot of time in 1 point
when was the last time you even saw a CRT display in use? @@A-BYTE64
@@tripplefives1402 VIM users would totally be all over this
@@l-space1368
Yesterday.
But to be fair, I was at an arcade that had some old machines
This monitor would be useful for those with a very specific use-case... like someone who has to read a lot of text-heavy documents.
Even then eye strain would still be a problem. Also seems like scrolling through text could be very annoying
Would honestly be pretty great for programming
Yeah it would probably be amazing for proofreaders or legal professionals having to double, triple, quadruple check contracts and stuff
@@HydratedBeans no not good for programming because it can't handle syntax highlighting. A colour version would be.
stil better than reegular monitor, no?@@alexdavis9324
That refresh rate is actually super impressive for an E-ink display! But...I think this tech is still best used exclusively for reading, specifically without scrolling. It has a long way to go before it can be suitable for use as a computer monitor, even if it's only for word processors.
I thought the same, it's impressive!
It's actually great for handwritten notes too! Due to how the technology works you can have genuinely intent response times with the right type of pen (if it's optimised for it). You see this tech in the remarkable line of products and some android e ink like boox devices.... However it really only good for doodles ans writing, if you're writing a journal or math notes perfect, if you're trying to draw detailed work you'll quickly go into limitations
I would not mind putting this on my server PC, or an Arch Linux machine!
I'm actually incredibly interested in this monitor because, as an accountant, staring at Excel sheets and Word docs is a lot of my job
But without anti-aliasing, the B/W and no shades is really useless. The resolution would need to be much much higher than 3K on the 23"
A teacher could turn one of these sideways and post schedule, events, or homework assignments for the week, and then set it against one of the classroom windows facing the hallway.
A small business owner could set a few of these side by side and post a menu or prices.
A library could use one of these to scan books to check out, or see what's on your library card, or browse the catalog to get the dewey decimal location of a book.
And for personal use, I could write a high contrast application to display my Outlook calendar and run it on an Intel ComputeStick or something and mount it on my wall.
I hope this becomes a thing. As a programmer, I'd welcome a monitor based on eink. But there needs to be a bit more work on this first. I like reading on my old Kobo, but it seems to render fonts better than this monitor, somehow.
Programming is what I was thinking about. I'm not one, so it's not for me, but I can see it's application.
For programming I feel that color is required
Actually.. no
If you want to run your code and oops change one thing in code, you have to push the clear button near every 4 sec.
It would be frustrating because the project window will be beurned in ince your run your app
@@kikihun9726you run your app on the other monitor. This one would be just for the code. I bet it would work great with vim.
@@kikihun9726 It would be fine if it could detect when it needed a refresh, like how kobo will do it every X pages or every chapter. It's certainly got a long way to go before I'd even look at it for anything other than reading currently.
I would totally get this monitor as a second display… if it was the same price or cheaper than a normal display.
I completely agree, I can’t wait for the price of this tech to come down and become available to the general public
Yeah it is the price that it holds back. If its cheaper, even though its not a grea experience for general purpose. But for more specific use case, this will going to sell decently. This will end up as a 2nd monitor mainly for documents, novels and even reading mangas.
no you wouldn't
It would be great for reading research papers
@@drybonesGCNas someone who does a lot of reading, yes. Yes I would.
It would be cool if they were able to use eye tracking to sync up the screen refreshes with your blinks (once the refresh speed is improved of course)
love this idea
That’s actually a really good idea
and refresh the parts of the screen fast and the rest slower
since on einks, the more pixels you refresh the slower it is. so refresh your peripheral vision slower
Brilliant! Especially because you could refresh on demand with your blink as an input. Might as well sense squinting too.
Eink will be usable for desktop once 4 things happen:
1. 30 Hz refresh rate (double this display's max)
2. Windows itself would have to support the technology, with things like the restoration of alternate text rendering modes and a 1bpp monochrome color depth mode, and the ability to tell the display which rectangle regions of the display buffer have been updated, so only those get erased/refreshed.
3. Smarter, and lower latency eink display controllers that can respond quickly to things like an eye tracker sensor.
4. Likely the panels used on these displays are driven at a fairly low voltage to keep energy usage as efficient as possible. The likely sacrifice here is picture clarity. A desktop display needs no such sacrifice. So the panel itself should likely be driven with a stronger current to increase the forces that move the eink particles around, within reason. This is likely to also make higher refresh rates possible, while avoiding an unacceptable amount of ghosting. There have to be eink displays rated for it, that won't break under that extra pressure. Doing this to an ordinary eink will significantly reduce the lifespan of the panel, since it's effectively a massive overclock + overvolt. It'd take significantly tighter manufacturing constraints to cancel out that drawback.
Honestly, it's tough to imagine Microsoft supporting such a thing. A lot of Windows software has stopped respecting ClearType settings since it was introduced in XP, among them various of Microsoft's own frameworks and libraries, and monochrome mode was already on the way out by Windows 3.1, which dooms desktop einks to obscurity.
So glad yall are back! You got me into my tech career as a technician and I’m so glad you’re back!!!
Oh! This would also be great for the linux command line and server use, and definitely for coding. But it needs to use some of the other e-ink tech that adds colours like red and yellow.
In theory I 100% agree, but the tech isn't fully there yet... For a Linux command line, sure this is awesome, but I don't think I could use this for coding with all of that ghosting. For the text itself, whatever, but I can imagine the ghosting getting really distracting, when you have LSP errors/messages or something getting displayed inline, and you always have to clear it manually to really see what's going on.
You could also just use... GUNNAR GLASSES! (Seriously though... their natural focus makes text easier to read and somehow... more contrasting even. I have regular glasses at home and Gunnar at work, and they work FANTASTIC.)
i agree! there are colored e-ink displays already, but they’re rare and there’s not much investment in this segment
I wanted one of those for coding and studying to reduce eye strain, but man, large e-ink displays are really expensive.
@@millanferende6723 Never heard of those. Do they work well when you’re myopic?
Good to see the citations in the description! Along with cross references in the video, it's good to see you putting action to what you discussed previously.
Imagine watching adult content when your mum comes in and you pull the power cable with a monitor like this....
Imagine watching adult content on this in the first place lmao
Just tell her it's a screen saver
@@tahahaider5836 😂
@@PrivateAccount80527 😉
The second monitor usecase kinda sounds amazing; I typically have a second monitor dedicated to just displaying reference documents,having something like this for text could be amazing, especially with the bonus that it is one less glowing screen in my face.
not sure it's worth the cost. any LCD display at low backlight should be enough, and you can find cheap 60hz (that's more than enough if you don't play games TBO.) monitors nowadays in many sizes and resolutions.
@@Bass2styleright now it obviously is not worth the cost
I hoped they would test the scenario of using it side by side with an LCD monitor because when one monitor is conspicuously brighter it's distractive and probably makes it more straining and frustrating to focus on the reflective monitor instead, and I don't know how much the front light will help in this case.
exactly, while the cost is ridiculously high right now. If it were to ever become reasonable, that's how I pictured it's use case. Instead they just spent 15 minutes trying to use it for everything it's obviously not meant for.@@lyfiatea
Yes, as a kid i would've use it for list of GTA cheat codes :D
As a long-time Kindle user the refresh on this thing is pretty impressive in terms of the speed. What's really interesting is the colour version, though. I read a fair few digital comics on my Fire, and I'd far prefer to be able to read them using e-ink. The question is whether those displays will have proper colour accuracy or whether we're just looking at 4 colours, which would still be a big jump.
I would really like a colored e-ink Android device considering my reading apps for basically everything are Android only
id imagine its still just 4 colors, otherwise they would have to get the cells way smaller so they could use them as subpixels
Colour e-ink displays are washed out and limited, much like mass market paper comics are (or, at least, used to be, it's been a couple of decades since I read one), so I'd say they're fine. I'm not sure if they can produce small splotches of colour similar to to the way color was done in magazines and newspapers in the beforetime, but that could increase the apparent colour pallete.
@@ZedDevStuff onyx boox makes a color eink tablet running android 11
4096 colors on kaleido 3 the tab ultra c is pretty awesome as far as eink tablets go
Android 11 and at least 15 fps on the fastest refresh mode comics are pretty good on it in my opinion
Love that you covered an e-ink display. It is interesting that your criticisms of the monitor and DASUNG's claims are absolutely justified due to the lack of research on e-ink's effectiveness, but my anecdotal experience does back up a lot of their claims. I've been using a DASUNG as my primary monitor for >2 years and it has completely changed my life. I have some kind of medical condition where even adhering to the 20-20-20 rule I will suffer headaches with prolonged LED display usage. However, I can happily stare at this monitor for hours on end, and use it all day if combined with the 20-20-20 rule. It has comically increased my productivity and permitted a career change into coding-heavy work. Aside from high-fps gaming, I do everything (including watching this video) on this monitor. The experience is certainly sub-optimal, but I am completely used to it at this point and only notice the difference when forced to use an LED monitor.
damn, hearing about people that actually use these type of monitors is shocking for me. i dont think i could live with a monitor with no color settings, just grayscale.
I’m glad you have had a good experience but this technology has a long way to go to be viable for a wider market, it has promise but the contrast and frame rate needs to be improved, especially since this monitor isn’t as good as other e-ink screens. The best hope is that this inspires someone like amazon to do it better
@@ThisWillCharacter Good points but as a first generation product in a new niche, it's a good start.
@@MrDacedric it is but it’s a steam deck situation where a smaller scale product gives a proof of concept that’s a bit rough around the edges for a large company that’s already experienced with adjacent tech to swoop in and take everything learned from that initial product niche, clean it up and release it to a wider market, leaving the original product in the dust. I’m not saying that’s what’s happened yet with the steam deck either but it’s inevitable once the laptop manufacturers get invested into handhelds
This is something you can probably use as a dashboard of sorts without worrying about screen burn-in or having a bright-ass display at hight that you have to keep turning off. Repurposed kindles and smaller enink displays are already popular for this.
EDIT: Just saw the cost, FTS, lol.
u dont look at dashboards for long
@@jalcome4201 And? That's an even bigger reason to use e-ink(if costs go down). You can leave it on 24x7 and forget about it without worrying about power consumption or burn in.
I remember that a professor in my university had an e-ink monitor in his office like 10 years ago. He used it in portrait mode to read papers and other pdfs. Of course it wasn't its primary monitor, as it was only used for reading. As an engineer I see this product quite usefull, because most of the references that I need to check are on PDF, and an e-ink display is more natural and comfortable for that, than a regular monitor.
Before the pandemic hit, my D&D game experimented with using a regular monitor for maps, instead of printing them, or drawing them on a wet-erase mat. The biggest problem was viewing angle and my thought since then was that some sort of large panel e-ink display would be perfect for that usecase
$2000 though.
@@EmergencyChannel yeah, the tech is still too expensive for that, though 2k for a fully functional monitor is already an improvement over that same cost (or more) for just the panel without anything that drives it
unrelated but i love your profile picture
How about a projector hanged from above
@@hedgehog_dilemma That requires a much more permanent installation that a monitor that can be brought in just before the game, then returned to storage
I'm using their smaller version (13") for almost a year, it is a godsend for programming. Takes a little time to get used to but switching off all backlight is so easy on eyes.
I was thinking that would probably be one of the best case scenario for this monitor.
If you want a display just to write.
I don't think this was ever intended to browse the web or watch videos.
@@RomainDelmaire or if you stare at the same picture a lot like a flowchart, TODO list, tutorial etc. You can see that use case with their coloured eink monitor. Hope the tech improves a bit more for coding though.
It sounds like a lot of office work, typing word documents, filling out forums, sending email could be totally doable with this or the new color version. If it helps reduce eye strain and keep workers from wondering off to the internet, that's not as hard a business sell. @@RomainDelmaire
bro what about syntax highlighting
@@mihailmojsoski4202 turns out I can live without it! I've tried disabling it on my laptop before just to see how brain will react and after 2-3 days I felt no difference, source code is still perfectly readable.
A few years back I had some nasty eye issues and I could look only at e-ink screens for a long time. So I actually hope this tech will develop over time into a more usable version. I'm unsure about using it for gaming, but it could eventually become usable for work. Fingers crossed!
they already have color e-ink monitor, it's here on youtube.
Did the issues go away?
Look into a reflective LCD display if the issue returns. Because it's not backlit it doesn't hurt the eyes. I have a similar issue only being able to look at e-ink screens and a reflective LCD display is basically the better version of color e-ink displays. It has the high refresh rate advantages of LCD, with the reflective display advantages from e-ink.
That said they're really fucking expensive and I wasn't willing to invest the money to actually buy one. The one I tried was a sunvisiondisplay RLCD monitor. But it was like $2k back then. Looks like it's about $1.5k rn
@@goosewoman thanks for the info, never heard about those kind of displays before. I can't afford to spend that much money on it right now, but I'll definitely keep it in mind.
How are your eyes now? I have the same eye problem as you. How can you treat your eyes?
I've been lucky enough to see this thing up close and working on my Labs tour during LTX! Even the "slow" 15 Hz refresh rate feels like a game changer for e-ink. For all its shortcomings I'm still very interested to see what some more R&D can accomplish for this tech in a few years!
Having used the web browser on Kindles a bit, I was surprised to see how acceptable 15 Hz looks. With less ghosting I could totally live with it.
A monitor like this was already available a fee years ago IIRC. At this point I think the cost is a bigger issue than the tech. I would have one of these as a second monitor right now if it was affordable. 2k is too much.
@Deathrape-if4kl
Lmao, no, it being low power is a huge help.
Being efficient is always a good call.
@Deathrape-if4kl Yeah, but the point of this kind of panel is to limit the amount of light that blasts your retinas. It's not about the "look" of the panel as much as it's about the panel producing virtually no light aside from the optional front light, reducing the amount of eye strain and fatigue. You can't get a similar result on other panels because they produce an image by producing light, whereas E-ink produces an image by creating a reflective surface.
I like that the editor made sure the labels were in the same orientation and order as what they were labelling onscreen. Like the plugs on the bottom of the monitor, the labels were vertical and in the same order as the plugs on screen and it made it super easy to know what everything was
In a smaller portrait format this could be really good for a dedicated word processing/study/research monitor, or to have off to the side in a gaming set up to monitor text chats or voice calls. I'd love maybe a 17" portrait version of this for that sort of thing.
I mean, that is what remarkable tablet is pretty much, but yes. Like a focus only typewriter sort of thing it would be amazing.
I remember when I was studying for a technical certification they talked about e-ink readers. I got curious and googled if there was such a thing as a e-ink computer monitor and found the monitor you found. I'm glad you made a video on it. I'm sure there's some use for it somewhere I'm just not sure where.
as a second or third monitor I could totally see this being awesome. I'd love it as a 45 degree desk monitor below my normal monitors to throw reference material onto.
why would you put up diagonally though
Stm32CubeIDE on one monitor, stackoverflow on second, stm32 refman on the e-ink. Perfection!
45 degrees?!
Actually our local supermarket is using tiny color e-ink displays on each product to show prices.
For long time I thought its just normal paper like in all other stores, but last week I saw it changing.
It looks amazing, and since e-ink does not use power when not changing content it can save a lot of money
on both power delivery for those devices and employee labor for manually swapping price tags whenever price changes.
And its important since here in Poland our inflation is so insane that prices of everything is changing at least once a month, and sometimes even more often.
It's pretty common here in the Netherlands, has been for a couple of years. Great use of technology :).
Now I want this here in Switzerland!
bruh poland's inflation has nothing to do with Argentina's. Here prices change every week, or days... we're screwed, you've got 10% anual inflation, we... 100+% 🤯
@@Tiago_Ferrari 10% is the propaganda.
The actual inflation is around 25%.
But true, it's still less than your.
This content style is something I missed from LTT for many years. Entertaining and viewers learnt something. There were many more entertaining hardware reviews in recent years, but viewers didn't learn anything in those. At some point, I only stayed on because I didn't find any creator doing better in this audience segment. This is a very good video. Welcome back LTT.
The quality of this video is a great improvement. I am looking forward to LTT's future.
@Myflag2022 tbf though the video was produced before the break
This video was made before their break. Literally nothing changed XD
I know Linus keeps repeating about ensuring learning outcomes even on the "look at this cool thing" videos. I wouldn't say they haven't done it in a while, but things like "what's a JBOD", or "why not use a SAN" are things they've covered a couple of times before so the recent videos weren't as informative for long-time fans, but we're still educational for newer or occasional viewers.
@@Hathos9 placebo effect 😂😂
This would be a super useful second or better yet third monitor. As someone who reads a ton of multi hundred page PDF for work, this would be very useful. The documents are usually already in black-and-white, the pages are large and full of text, and I could honestly get away with one hertz refresh, and I wouldn’t have to be converting it to KindlePDF and sending it via the cloud to read it on my Kindle, which is what I’m currently trying to do and is not always secure enough for internal documents.
Literally checked 10 mins ago if LTT hadn't posted any new video cuz I was bored. The second I decide to hit the sack, I check my phone, and here I am.
Glad to see you back Linus !
Is that a new buzzer alert 0:25 to go along with the "error" correction from the words spoken? I like it! its such a meaninless error that changes nothing about purchasing descisions as anyone who is likely to want EInk isnt going to care of its 3000 or 3200 pixels if they are doing audio only listening, but its enough of a audible trigger to say "hey, something was different on screen". Keep it up!
Glad to see you guys back! I hope it'll be smooth from now on. I'm glad you made changes
The color version would be great as a dashboard monitor. Dashboards only need to refresh every few seconds, or so, so it's the perfect use case.
But the price is insane. It would make sense once it goes down to $200.
the only possible issue is speedometers
@@Reverend_Salemah sorry, I didn't mean car dashboards, although that's a pretty cool idea. I was more thinking about monitoring stations, which display lots of charts / graphs, financial data, user usage data, traffic data, etc.
@@itsbazyli im a bit of a car guy, so i immediately think cars when i hear dashboard lol
I got a color eink tablet because I wanted syntax highlighting for code. B&W sucked for that reason. Text doesn't need to refresh that quickly as long as letters show up quickly.
@Reverend_Salem Have you not seen the CES 2022 BMW iX Flow reviel or the reviel of CES 2023 from BMW i Vision Dee?
Ever since I got myself a kindle years ago, I keep checking if we're there yet with eink displays for computers; specifically for coding. this particular brand and monitor has been under my radar for some time, so this is probably the most useful video I've ever seen from this channel, in my own subjective set of interests of course, thanks. On a related note, I once bought an off brand eink replacement screen for my friend's kindle when her screen was cracked. the most interesting thing about that transaction was that the screen came in with ads already on it haha. they flashed an ad and shipped it as is, which I think is ingenious since it needs energy to change the image, not to keep it on the screen.
Flashing an ad into an eink screen is just cheeky enough that it's not annoying.
The colour version will be interesting, especially as a second monitor where you have documents loaded for reference (or to read while making notes, like a textbook).
A color version, you mean.. like a standard monitor?
@@djurdjepavlovic It would be an eInk colour display.
Not as good as a standard monitor but better than the greyscale effort shown in the video.
Reflecting light, like a a book with color. Like the Moon ≠ Sun.
@@robindp It would work quite well as a TV menu a coffee shop or to display train times etc.
imagine buying this as a twitch chat monitor
3:20
precisely when linus remembered they are trying to be more detail oriented.
I'm hoping that they improve the tech and we see more displays like this. It could be especially helpful for programmers and anyone who has to read a lot at their desk. I can see using one as a second screen, especially if they added at least one or two more colors, and they have been working on developing such screens.
I love e ink, I would honestly use this for typing & spreadsheet work type stuff. I think there's a lot of people who do written and editing based work who stare at screens for, well, most of their waking life and this might be a huge eye saver as a second monitor (if it weren't goofy expensive)
How does it actually save your eyes though? Just the sky outside is probably so many times brighter than your monitor, so does looking at the sky also hurt your eyes?
@@venturoes1912 not a clue. but I can say from a utilitarian perspective I feel better spending hours reading a book, drawing, or reading on an e-ink tablet than looking at a computer screen. Not like I feel particularly bad looking at a computer screen - I'm not someone who thinks its going to rot your brain or do some conspiracy theory shit or whatever, but there is a difference. Not a $2000 difference though lol.
It is perfect for store displays showing prices, menus, airport arrival and departure displays, advertisements, etc. Basically mostly static things or things that dont need to refresh too often. I already see eink type displays used at Kohl's department stores for shelf pricing.
It also got built-in turn-page animation, no more awful animation it can’t display.
Great touch with the citations
I have wondered for years why there weren't e-ink monitors for coders and programmers as a side monitor. I always figured it would be way easier to code and program using one. I do a ton of MSSQL work and would love an e-ink monitor for looking at the tables and dbs and query editors.
I also think they could be ideal for programming. If IntelliJ specifically supported them, for example, so that the text looks as crisp as on an e-book reader, then I would see a lot of potential for companies buying them and consequently the price becoming more reasonable.
When I'm working on an electronics project I always have a dozen datasheets opened. A dedicated, vertical, e-ink screen would be great for displaying them besides the main monitor. I am actually really surprised that there is no vertical mode on this one.
They showed about 3:08 that it can be turned vertically. Then you tell your OS you want to use it rotated.
They showed that it could tilt to vertical on its stand and since its a monitor you just change the setting in windows and bam you have a vertical e-ink monitor.
I went to a 50" oled linus style lol and use powertoys to handle layout. It's hard to compete with the "bandwidth" of dead trees though.
Yea it would at least in theory, be very workable as a sort of secondary "where do a i store all my crap"-screen. But it seams like.. well its not quite there yet.
They really need to make it like partially refresh all the time.
There are definitely good uses for things like this, especially a colour version. That it saves energy is also convenient for public use displays that are always on - think of a directory in a mall, for example. You don't need a high refresh rate on those.
Some stores, like Chapters/Indigo in Canada, also provide computers to customers so they can search inventory and location. E-ink monitors could be useful there, too.
library monitors for searching might be good too
@@christina4941 That's a very good point. Apart from cost saving, e-readers can be more aesthetically appealing in a library and feels more blend in.
My guy you missed like the entire selling point of the eInk display
@Deathrape-if4kl Obviously. Like all tech, if it catches on the price will drop and will be more viable in everyday use. That wasn't my point.
What's a mall?
Thankful that you guys at LTT are uploading again! I really appreciate the focus on quality and the links to the citations as well. Keep it up 👍👍👍
ok, but this same concept but its thousands of extra tiny flipdots (maybe sometime in hte future we can make the motors small enough to function at a near led scale) mainly again just for commercial applications and reading. Would be cool to see what the Shrek movie would look like on a flipdot display that condensed though.
I wonder what that would sound like 😮😂
The colour version sounds really awesome for programming and writing. I absolutely love e-book readers and being able to do more with that technology would be great. Plus such a monitor with a raspberry Pi (or something similar) would be very low power consumption for simple writing/programming. Will definitely follow the development.
Thanks for using citations at really doing research. This video shows that you really focused on quality and actually did improve the things that were a mess before. Good job, now stick with this sentiment! :D
Really appreciated that as well! So many people make wild claims - particularly around things affecting health - that it's important to show proper research citations to support said statements/claims. Of course there will always be the arm-chair expert.
Oh really what's the difference exactly...rofl....and also this was recorded before all things happened, cuz they had a break for a week....lol
This video is most likely part of the 2 week backlog that LMG always tries to maintain. This is the exact same quality of video that would've come out before the meltdown happened
@stormbringer7542 I don't recall ever seeing citations before though. It's likely they filmed and prepped it before the last couple weeks, then went back and re-edited to add citations before publishing. I don't expect the filming style and quality to change though...that was never really the problem though (excluding presenter stated errors during reviews and first looks)
I like the additional research into the marketing claims and especially the citations! - The way to go! I guess this was already something on the way, but with more time for each video, i hope this can become a regular thing! Oh and I love the Techquickies about some more sidetopics on technologies too, with citations if possible!
As a researcher, I upvote this
In 100% text apps, like code editing or command prompt usage. I can see this being lovely to use.
If it was cheap, I’d definitely consider it for coding.
If they could get the refresh rate up to 30fps I wouldn't mind having the color version of this as my 3rd monitor. It definitely seems like a technology that could be really cool if given enough time to develop.
i think there was enough time to develop 30hz e-ink monitor, but it deffenetly hit the refresh rate limit
This makes me really wish that IMOD displays, Qualcomm branded them as Mirasol displays, hadn't been given up on so quickly. They might not have been able to beat e-ink in ereader tablets, but since it could support a higher refresh rate and without all of the flashing it would have been perfect for this kind of application.
The main problem is having to stop and clear the thing anytime there is a significant change in scenery. A more seemless method of clearing select areas of the monitor automatically would do wonders
9:59 This is one of the reasons the WCAG accessibility standards require links and buttons to not only be distinguished by colors. It must have some other indication like a background, border or underline to assist in differentiating from normal text content.
Computer and Programming Ergonomics died 10 years ago with „clean ui“
does Anysurfer has something akin?
It's a setting you can just force in most browsers. I have a customised colour profile in my browser as part of the Accessibility Options for sites that don't have a dark mode. Applying the profile forces specific fonts, colours and the likes. You can use the same thing for force underlining hyperlinks and such. In the end all of those things are decided client side, so what you set in your browser can't just be overridden by a site's CSS crap.
In theory would this be good for static images like an airport schedule screen or a cafe menu?
In theory yes. Very low power consumption and good/acceptable viewing angles.
Absolutely! My hometown of Hamburg, Germany uses such displays as subway schedule signs in some places. It's works great and is very cool to look at!
@@22Tie22Also from Germany. Would be really interesting to see one on a picture, but was not able to find them. Where exactly are those located?
Lots of grocery stores already have them displaying prices on the shelves. Most people don't even realize they are screens though
@@22Tie22 that’s cool I didn’t know places were already rolling out that kind of stuff! I haven’t seen any in the US anywhere but it’s great to see some at least happen to use it, seems like such a good idea.
I’ve always been interested in eink. Can’t wait to see you do the colored one!
I love the citation segment in the description! Keep it going guys! I love videos with less Tomfoolery and a more focused approach, while staying chill. This is the way to regain the community's goodwill!
Me too
I love E ink and the way they look, and would love to see an E ink monitor, but this is not it, yet. For now, it’ll stay regulated to things that don’t need more than one refresh every couple minutes, like temp sensor displays
I had no idea panels of that size were anywhere ready. Cool! E-ink is absolutely awesome for some things. A few of my local grocery chain stores have started using e-ink price tags and it's awesome. Even for someone whose sight is still good they're a substantial UX improvement, I've found.
Edit: Also yay, crediting them in video itself is a nice touch, good job you!
This comment showed in the main feed as replied by LTT but then I click and the comment isn't there... Strange.
@@itskdogRUclips being RUclips...
@@itskdog i see that too. possible youtube bug
@@itskdog YT shadow banned the wrong comment 🤣
@@itskdog Why are you, and apparently 36 people who likes your comment acting like they can't see Linus's comment? It's clearly the second reply... Was half the subscribers shadowbanned or something?
If you ran a custom OS with this monitor it could work well. Like a high contrast mode. Now if you go into windows and setup a high contrast mode you can make it work. Also if they had it setup so there was an LED matrix behind the screen as a backup for color with a wash plate designed to blend in the pixils for hyperlinks or for color as a way to distinguish contrast in video or game mode. That should help a lot. It may cost more but i think it would yeild better results.
I'm actually pretty amazed at how well this handles video, like obviously there are lots of ghosting and contrast issues but it looked far smoother than I was expecting.
I really desperately want e ink monitors to get better! I'd love it if I could have one as a primary monitor somehow
Man I actually love how they are putting citations in their descriptions. It's incredibly helpful
and when you have about a mil audiences per video, everything that come out of that video must be cited, or proofed so to say. that's the matter of clean content!
The differences in the details in the new content is clear as day. Great work! Excited to see more videos with this level of thoroughness and attention to detail
Fwiw, they filmed this over a month ago
Although it wasn't technically a dektop monitor, a few years ago, Technology Connection's Alec did a series of videos with his experiences on an e-ink tablet with HDMI input.
So there were already products on the market targeting that niche, and I'd think it would be cool to have you compare them if you end up doing the follow-up video you mentioned.
I can see it being useful in a dual monitor setup with a normal monitor as the main.
the spreadsheet monitor for wow players
As someone who had severe eye pain from constant monitor use, I can say that I bought a couple of e-ink devices and while there *are* drawbacks, they were the only screens I could use for a few months without pain. I let my eye issues get bad enough that just looking in the direction of a normal monitor that was on was giving me sharp pain. Now my color e-ink tablet is running my home assistant dashboard, and my BOOX Mira Pro desktop monitor is connected to a 10W stick PC for other larger dashboards. Great secondary uses.
A benefit of a reflective display could be to use it outside without having to fight against the sun on luminosity.
Great point. Why fight the light when you can use it to your advantage!
Here's hoping the coloured e-ink one works well, would be great for coding
I was hoping to see some use with a terminal as that would be awesome for reduce eye strain (especially with vim users).
Idk I feel like even terminal scrolling could suck at low refresh rates
I actually think that this could be a good addition to an existing setup, as a third, fourth, etc monitor, dedicated for reader purposes. Reading large text on normal monitors always seems to be stressful on the eyes, and I've always kinda liked the E-ink idea.
But for that price I could print out everything I need to read in a decade.
@@CarltoffelYeah, exactly
Check the price first... 1700usd. More expensive than a 4k 65" oled tv...
As they said in the video it'll still be straining the eyes.
The big advantage of e-ink is power consumption. That's why it is used in e-readers: you can make the batteries small and the devices easier to hold.
@@shinyhappyrem8728 From experience working in help desk, and seeing the setups a lot of people use at work, I tend to think that a big part of eye strain issues people have is running their monitors too damn bright. Almost everyone I saw at work was more or less blasting their eyes, and had been doing it for years. A few of them agreed to let me calibrate their monitor brightness with the ambient light levels to test if it would help, and all of those reported less issues with their eyes and more comfort long term. In a couple of cases we went from like 250-300 nits down to 100-150 nits.
Sample size of only a couple of dozen all in all, so not conclusive by any means of course.
I know someone who can’t look at LCD screens (something something eye something) and this would be PERFECT for them. I’m guessing that’s their target user base.
Good to see ltt back again!
The possibilities this presents in the construction field is very interesting. I work in the steel industry that produces hundreds of thousands of technical drawings for the manufacturing personnel to produce off of. Most of the current industrial displays and tablets fall way short of replacing the paper plans by lack of contrast or brightness. This might work as a solution for stations in a shop environment if it can stand up to the conditions. Do you know anything about the durability in dust/water/or heat resilience?
honestly this would be fantastic for older folks, my grandma doesn't like sitting at the computer a lot, she's just there to check in with some family stuff occasionally, maybe email my family, if they could make the price reasonable, e-ink displays would be my first choice for any older family members
@@kadupse oh definitely not, if there's more than one button to push my grandma goes "Michael you know I don't like all that" 😂
No it wouldn't. For someone who barely uses a monitor, this has absolutely no benefit. The only niche use case is for people who do a ton of reading or text based tasks all day
It will never be as cheap as LCDs. It's actually really difficult to produce eInk screens this large (think 4090 chips being harder than 4060s). It's a niche product for a niche audience which further keeps the price high, so unless you really need the power savings, it's not for occasional/light users.
I know they're saying it's terrible as a video monitor but that looks so good compared to what I expected. E-ink has come a long way and I think that's very interesting since it doesn't have a big market compared to the other technologies
Edit; that cost way more than I thought lol
I think that it can be awesome for programming, especially if you work the "old" way with terminals and simple text editors like Vim. I have actually been looking for things like this but mainly because of the price I have not bought any, the model in the video cost $1748, you can literally buy a decent gaming laptop for the same price. Their 13" model is cheaper but still very expensive for what it can do.
Yea, that was my first thought. It would be an amazing second monitor for programming. It sucks that it is so expensive.
It should come as an option for laptops. Laptops are (usually) not meant for gaming anyway, and get (occasionally) used in environment where you can't control the lighting.
Used to work for a company which had a park, but no AC in our office, so, yeah, I did quite a bit of work in the park. Constantly moving around with the sun, trying to find a new place with a dark background and no direct sunlight, to boldly go where no sunbeam has gone before...oh, wait, forget that.
Well, still no fun. Mainly read documentation (PDFs) and coded using my favorite text editor. Which is, since I'm awesome, vi.
Obviously.
With an e-ink display, I might even consider ed, though.
Google "ed man man ed" if you feel the uncontrollable urge to be enlighted. It's never too late.
What is the new way of programming that doesn’t use a text editor of some kind and a terminals? I use npm pretty much daily.
@@dstinnettmusic I believe they call it an IDE. It is basically a giant monolithic program that works as a text-editor, a compiler, a file manager, a version controller, a build system, a debugger and a package manager and it is all done in a completely graphical environment. I know that this novel concept sounds unimaginable but there are people out there actually using it, and it horrifies me just to think about it.
Welcome back, y'all. The citations are a fantastic addition. Great video.
Maybe if someone made a normal monitor that also has an E-ink mode, that might work. But a dedicated monitor just for E-ink? Bleh.
You clearly don't understand the technology if you think it's possible for a normal LCD to also have anything close to an eInk mode... That said, there's a company that makes an LCD monitor with a side small eInk monitor attached. There's also a company that makes reflective LCDs (Sun Valley Displays) that's the closest thing you'd get to a normal monitor having an "eInk mode" but it requires a whole reflective layer that's unique to the company and quite a bit of thought to the lighting environment. Dunning Kruger moment?
to have this in portrait as a second monitor to read and or word process would be pretty sick. color e ink is a must before this tech really takes off
It's (to most) a nearly insignificant change, but the way you're handling 2:12 makes me very very happy! I absolutely love it
I think the RUclips algorithm is in love with E-Ink technology at the moment. I have been getting recommended a video explaining why this technology is so slowly developing all day and now this one despite it being under ten minutes since it was uploaded.
I think that's your personal algorithm, the data that RUclips collected on you.
Well I also had a bunch of e-ink vids on my feed, interesting
@@calegavrilgueco3352same, I've never searched for E ink and I also just watched the one OP mentioned too.
I have an e-ink Android tablet, and I absolutely love it. Sure, you’re not going to play games, but for reading websites, or taking notes, or doing crosswords, it’s perfect. I can see how it would be good for a secondary monitor.
Btw, ONYX, the maker of the tablet I use also makes e-ink monitors. Would be good to get a side-by-side with this one.
I also use an onyx tablet and was thinking about the fact that it auto refreshes when you scroll on webpages. I wonder if their monitors do the same, or if that's only possible because as an all in one unit the tablet is better able to know what type of content it is displaying.
I would love to hear future Dasung eink screens reviews also include a section "From a Programmers perspective".
I like the idea of having an eink "programmer monitor" as my 2nd... or rather as my 4th monitor :D (currently got a 3 monitor setup now that needs to be expanded)
I can't see LTT focusing on that given their focus on being "a bit of everything" and so quite broad, but I wouldn't be surprised if a more niche programming-focused channel might take a look if they had the budget to afford one or if a company that makes E-ink monitors were to send a review sample.
My colleague swears by e-ink. They get migraines from TN/LCD/OLED panels, but e-ink doesn't.