I feel have to make a point here because I'm seeing recurring questions in the comments section. Lots of people have asked if, when making judgements, I considered things such as these: (1) The motivations and personalities of the commanders (2) The differing military cultures of orcs, elves and dwarves (3) Story elements such as rising and falling action The answer is I did not factor in the above. The point of this video is to discuss the value and viability of the moves and actions of the armies. Plenty of decisions in this film do make sense from a character or story perspective but - as the title of the video indicates - I am only discussing whether the tactics or strategies make sense from a military perspective. I am not concerning myself with whether Azog/Thranduil/Dain’s decisions can be explained by using character or story perspectives. In this video, I am only concerning myself with the viability of the tactics in question. Addendum: I should make clear that I am also trying not to reference books or other related media in my military analysis videos. If there is part of a related book which can explain something happening on the screen, then the writer of the book should have been employed to write the film. When a person buys a DVD or goes to the cinema, they should be able to expect a complete work of art; a work of art which doesn’t require the consumption of other pieces of fiction to understand. If you need to read a book to properly understand the events in a film, then the filmmakers have done something wrong. Everything needed for comprehension of a film should be on the screen.
Well, the only thing that should be taken in the tactics is that orcs could be helped in their communication and coordination by Sauron. Even without the One Ring, one of his powers is helping with coordination and communication via mind control and mind communication (mind-speech?). Not so much in The Hobbit, as it is in direct proportion to his overall power and the presence of the One Ring, but definitely in the prologue of LoTR (Battle of the Last Alliance) and as the LoTR movies progress
I'd like to point out that elves think they're vastly superior to dwarves so I think while jumping over the phalanx is stupid, it makes a small amount of sense when you consider they're thoughts.
@@expertpoods5831 yup, and dwarves believe the opposite and hence the fighting Still not a clever decision, and elves were not widely known for tactical blunders, even in Beleriand when they had less experience
Value and viability.... and include the context of the situation (Since it would make some arguments debatable or invalid). I don't remember too much of the movie, but responding to an immediate threat with the Phalanx, as it is their standard defense battle line, may have been the only option. There is also no organization between the 2 groups, but there is obvious recognition that the orcs are a bigger threat. Turning around to defend the entrance could also look like they are trying to attack the elves so it isn't really a bad strategy. In the case of the urukai (eh spelling)... The idea that battle plans would be known to each unit is quite hilarious as it has never been the case. Each unit carrying out their objective will inherently look chaotic which is also in line with the story (Also they are fodder and pieces that need to be mobilized and moved for the end goal, and they succeeded).
In the book, Thorin and company emerge not only in armor, but clad completely in Mithril. This was super important, tactically and symbolically. They were not only epic heroes, with bloodlines and songs, but now they are literally wearing national treasures, clad in the power of their heritage. With this impervious armor, it made more sense that they charged headlong into a superior force and (mostly) survived.
Also, another good thing to take into consideration, is Tolkein was a soldier in the great war, a war that was notorious for poor military decisions made by generals, and the men that died for those decisions. So he would have brought this attitude into his writing.
And incredible arrogance and not having time to prepare (they assumed Gandalf wouldn't come back and Theoden would fall into despair) from what I remember.
@@RoniWoodward , Tolkien didn't have the scene of blowing up the wall altogether. His combat scenes were rather scarcely detailed, and stylized to be similar to old Northern tales - hence the long lists of fallen (who are never otherwise mentioned), and hero-centric descriptions (Aragorn met Eomer on the battlefield and said X) instead of battle-report kind of ones (Witch King ordered pikeorks to position X to counter Rohan cavalry, but they didn't get there in time and got flanked). Besides, Tolkien vehemently denied any real life analogies being there.
@@roryodwyer6775 So your telling me that it makes sense for them to yeet themselves over the first few lines of a formation right into the middle of said formation, isolating themselves from the main force of their army, one of the main things that keeps them safe, and placing at a massive numerical disadvantage, is a good idea in any way, shape, or form? they would literally be committing suicide with no actual benefit gained
@@orionsimoniantaylor2298 the elves are quite well known for skill with a bow. they could easily have used their arrows making use of the phalanx to slow down the advance of orc
My thoughts exactly. What the bloody hell were the stupid long ears thinking? "Hey, the dwarves formed a shield wall. There's obviously no use for such a stupid concept, let's jump over it and die gloriously with orks in front and pikes at the back."
@@Jonnell01 it means that each rank fire independent volleys. For example there's a formation thats three ranks deep. First the front rank fires, then crouches to reload and not block the second rank, second rank does the same thing, then third ran, then repeat the process as long as you need to
Or fire a few shots then fire the rest after the ballistae have fired Or change angles after each shot Or dont put an arc into it just shoot straight Those things were just weird, seemed more like something ACME would sell Will E Coyote than a legit weapon
"Fili and Kili had fallen defending Thorin with shield and body, for he was their mother's elder brother" that little quote from the book is better than all of Fili, Kili and Thorin's death scenes
Let’s put the trebuchets in front of the army. That way we can use them exactly one time before they are destroyed. Also, let’s put the caltrops behind the troops to block off their retreat.
I think the ridiculous tactics of Helm’s Deep can be chalked up to the Uruk Hai’s single minded determination to destroy the defenders and carry out the will of Saruman. The Orcs and Uruk Hai were already shown to have violent and self destructive natures, often turning on each other when there was no one to fight. In addition, the Uruk Hai were so devoted to Saruman that they would happily blow themselves up to carry out his will. It could also be because they had no idea how powerful the blast was, since Saruman was the only person who knew about the properties of gunpowder, the Uruk Hai’s stupidity (they were not the most intelligent creatures), or the fact that it didn’t really matter if the Uruk Hai were caught in the blast. The attacking force was composed of 10,000 Uruk Hai, while the defenders had only 500 men and elves to defend the castle. Once the wall was breached and the Uruks got past the castle’s defenses, the force inside would stand little chance against such overwhelming numbers. Saruman’s forces could afford to lose some of their forces if it meant the wall was breached. They had overwhelming numbers on their side, while the defenders only real advantage was the formidable defenses of their fortress.
Megalodon thank god someone said it.. I was about to. The Uruk Hai are way stronger, faster, and taller than their inferior kin, but they’re a little more organised, only because they may well have been drilled at both Mordor and Isengard. But it is already known that once they have overwhelming bloodlust or have only ‘had maggoty bread for three stinking weeks’ there is no telling what’ll happen.. they’re chaotic and self destructive, i.e the embodiment of evil.
They were in a beserker rage. In the book, it took bolg and his whole bodyguard + thousands of flanking orcs to finally push them back. The charge resulted in that the wargs fell out of control, and started eating their own men, and it gave time to the others, and the eagles to arrive. If they were stuck against the gate, they would be besieged and starved
A huge sin of this battle is that the humans are potrayed still as peasants. Bard did very much formed an army of a few thousand well armed soldiers after the Dragon was killed in the books. I don't get why Jackson wanted to show them as a small bunch of farmers with pitchforks hiding behind the elves.....also why the hell Thorin and everyone else took off their armors when it was going to be actually useful?!
@@TheAchilles26 Social commentary. The whole movie is rife with it. I'ts been ages since I read The Hobbit but I am 100% sure none of the women came out to fight for instance, that was some shit Jackson added. In the years between making The Hobbit and making LOTR, he became very regressive and could not help but insert his views in this movie. I'ts one of the reasons for it's lower quality to LOTR, but not the only one.
This exactly. The men of the north had an army, especially after the demise of Smaug. I was expecting to see an army, but barely got a rabble. Why the race of men were such pushovers in these movies eludes me. Bard was a fairly noble man as far as the books were concerned, a respected voice in the town, but I guess the comeback story of vagabond to hero is what the heads wanted. And yes, the political tripe is definitely in there. You can see the women in the army on the field, but then there is a scene later where the women venture to take up arms and stand with the men. Weren’t they already doing this? Or was it not obvious enough so it had to be put on display. Also notice how no women fought in the battle for Helm’s Deep, even when the entire civilization of Rohan was on the line, back when the politics of gender didn’t have to be shoved into anything and everything.
I don't understand why the Dwarves and Elves didn't retreat and use the defenses of the lonely mountain rather than facing the superior orc forces in the field.
In the book they sort of did, first of all the dwarves and elves never fought each other, second they used the mountains geography (I hope I used that right) to set up some defenses, like archers high up, force the enemy into an area so people can throw things on them, its kind of hard to remember it's been a few months since the last time I read it, but looking back the movies are not good they added too many things that weren't in the book.
@@da_ghoul9432 Even in the books they couldnt have done it. They blocked it up and only had a narrow passage on the side of a artificially made lake. Therefore they wouldve needed several hours or a day to get a couple thousand folks into the keep.
@@Richard_Nickerson Is that question directed at the fact that half his face is burned? If so that's because he fought at least one fire dragon a long time ago which doesn't end well for most people. The fact he is still alive and only got half his face burned is quite an accomplishment.
henk detank That's the result of the 'Glamour' ability that Elves posses in some iterations of fantasy/ DnD. I guess P.J. decided he needed to personify this ability in the films, even though it's not in any way part of the source material.
In Dain's defense at 17:15, this scene is intended to show Dain getting tired and demoralized from fighting so many orcs and seemingly being abandoned by his cousin. He his exhausted, which makes him revert to his critical survival weapon- his thick frontal cranium.
Ok. Your point about calvary collapsing after hitting an armored target is correct in the context of our historical horse calvary. But these are Rams, who have heads and a body structure designed to well ram
@Avatar Ang pretty much when they fight each other they can put more than 750 pounds of force into a hit. Thats 750 pounds of force vs 750 pounds or more when they are fighting each other. Their body are designed to take that type of impact more than 5 times in a hour.
I find it stupid that when Thoran finally opens the city they don't fall back into it. We saw the opening was maybe 3 or 4 dwarfs wide so that would have created a great choke point.
Huh? interesting they didn't do that in the book either. Instead Thorin just charges Bolg's bodyguards which inspires all the Dwaves, many men and even some Elves which surprises the Orcs and pushes them back. Though again in the books The Dwarves, Elves and Men had used the Mountains geography to erect fortifications so that's probably why.
@@Mailed-Knight well to be precise - dwarf's charge led by Thorin, broke Orcs ranks and was pushing them back until they've smashed into Bolg's Elite Bodyguards and Thorin got injured - in which precise moment Beorn have showed up to surprise of everyone involved, killed bolg, his elite bodyguards, and carried Thorin to safety - at which moment evil forces were thrown into disarray due to chain of command being cut on the very head.
@@MehrumesDagon That's the thing about hollywood... if you have great source material. Why do you feel the need to change so much? The original scene would have been as good/better than what we got.
@@JoranBerserk well hollywood has few issues on that regard indeed - If I were to guess I'd say changes were made because, firstly, Peter Jackson thought the "lonely mountain siege" part of the book was boring (no action, only talks), secondly he needed to provide sensible conclusion to Dol Guldur arc to justify filling it in (altho to be honest I did not expect Jackson to actually do the homework to know that there was a case of necromancer of dol guldur that would conveniently fit Gandalfs "urgent" disappearings throughout the hobbit story, but inclusion of it into the hobbit movies without something to crown the arc in way that actually relates to the main story would leave to unavoidable acusations of jackson only doing so to extend the timeframe to sell more movies out of single book)
The moment where the elves jump the Phalanx had me rolling my eyes. I had to suspend my disbelief that they weren’t pushed onto the dwarves spears by literally jumping into a charging horde.
I think you should also consider the fact that in the battle of Helm's Deep, the assaulters aren't an highly co-ordinated army of humans. They are orcs, albeit highly trained and organized, they are still fundamentally chaotic creatures that aren't exactly known for their excellence in co-ordinated warfare.
Another point about Helm's Deep... it wasn't just about taking the fortress... it was also about sending a message. A tidal wave doesn't need superior strategy to be absolutely devastating. The Uruks had the numbers, disregard for their own lives, and sheer brutality to not only crush the defenders (after the explosion destroyed the wall) but also to crush the spirits of any would be avengers. Saruman knew exactly what he was doing.
I have seen someone pointing out that throughout Tolkien's works, it isn't the orcs that make rash military decisions on the battlefield, but rather their enemies - men and elves. In the Silmarillion in Nirnaeth Arnoediad, an unplanned attack by a group of elves ruins a solid plan of defense against Morgoth's hordes. Feanor died because he threw himself at Morgoth's forces and was slain by his balrogs. I'm sure there were other examples that I don't remember. The point is, we don't really see that from orcs. They don't rush off rashly into battle, they fight when they are told. Sure, individual orcs may be cowardly, but when they are together, they can fight, and fight well.
Worth mentioning that the battle of Helm's Deep generally doesn't bother people because it becomes clear that the attacking army is more like a mindless horde than anything, so the bad tactics are pretty much a given. It's nut just the epicness of the scene that makes you able to ignore it, it's that knowledge at the back of your head that makes you understand that these creatures are not well organized, they're just a bunch of orcs that were told to attack there, and that's what they're doing. I mean, the closest thing to a command they got was an orc monster going "Aaarrrgghhhh". EDIT: Do your self a favor and don't watch a movie called Mile 22, if you watch that, the sheer stupidity of every single person involved would probably push you over the edge.
I think there was actually a tactical advantage to be gained by the orcs attacking the city of Dale, this is because:- 1. The women and children in the city are most likely fairly unarmed and definitely not skilled in feats of arms, thus a small force of orcs could easily take the city and slaughter the non-combatants. 2. The act of slaughtering the women and children would demoralise the human forces, after all how well would you fight orcs on a plane knowing that in the city your wife and children are being torn apart. 3. This thought (#2) would distract any human fighting on the plane. 4. This would probably draw the humans away from fighting on the plane, leaving just elves and dwarves fighting on the plane. Just saying as I see it!!!
actually I agree with you here. It's most likely that the orcs pushed to dale as , humans/dwarves have priorities to lessen the innocent as well as unit casualties as much as possible and ofc the *humanity* feeling thingy. The orcs however just plow through , and yes demoralising as you mentioned is accurate as well, making at least some portion of the non-orc army head towards the city as a diversion where azog could tire out or hinder the elvish/dwarven army near the castle. (note that dwarves also had suffered heavy losses and would certainly lose cuz most of the elvs were killed of by the dwarven battista as well are sheep-rams and orc attack , and the rest elvs pushed to dale leaving remaining handful dwarves outnumbered af)
The only issue I see is the movies depiction. There looks to be about 100 humans in the battle with terrible equipment and old and unfit for battle members. Honestly using a force that big to flank the army of elves and dwarfs would have been a much smarter decision to finish them off as a whole and then focus on the city. The army of humans are already demoralized and weak so there is no point in focusing specifically on drawing them away. It seems that focusing such a large force for the city was a huge mistake the prolonged the battle in time for reinforcements. Basically, tactically speaking attacking the city only gains an advantage against the tiny inconsequential human force, while focusing that force on flanking would result in a quick victory against all 5 armies opening the city to an easy victory and the mountain to a siege.
Well the way I see it, is that by attacking the city, you are drawing attention away from the battle on the valley floor, with how the men will obviously rush to save their families, and thus put the Elves in a difficult position, where they can leave the dwarves to face the orcs alone before the mountain or abandon your supposed allies in the city.
The one point I’d make about the orcs attacking the city is that it wasn’t a small force. He sent like a third of his army to attack them. Demoralizing and drawing the humans away also doesn’t seem that important as there isn’t that many humans in the battle to make a big effect.
I think you have to consider the fact that the orcs are really used as an expendable race, their large numbers and fast breeding rate make up for any losses that they take, as well as the fact that if they just sent the two with the bomb, or the torch bearer, they would have been singled out by almost all the people on the wall, and would have been cut down with countless arrows, so having all the orca there, with some climbing and shooting arrows, they distract enough of the defenders that they are able to get the bomb in place and blow it up. In short, the orcs massive army size, and extreme lack of empathy, is what makes them a terror, not smart or proper tatics
But then you would also have to consider the elves are supposed to be intellectually far superior and wiser, and have superior battle strategies developed over a lifespan in the hundreds or thousand of years - not decades. Which would make the whole thing far more ridiculous than it already is.
@@adifferentangle7064 but also, sarumans bomb had just been developed, why would the elves anticipate a new technology from the least intelligent race of middle earth? If the walls had held and the battle played out as a regular siege perhaps the elves would have been more help, also I haven't watched the movies in a while but aren't the uruk-hai pretty much a new race too? Created by saruman, essentially the elves have no experience in fighting against this kind of army, and their time fighting the much weaker orcs probably even makes it harder for them to fight a completely different enemy. I mean that's just my opinion on it, I am not saying the scene had no flaws in the plot but personally I don't think that is one of them
Yes. I agreed with the video except for the criticism of the Battle of Helms Deep, which has a good in-universe explanation. Uruk-Hai are not known for their intelligence or strategic prowess. They are scary because they are fearless and powerful and lack empathy. Think about the battering-ram scene where the orcs are killing their own men by pushing them off the rampart just to protect the battering-ram. Sure, they were given some strategic advice from Saruman, but they also had their own orc commander on the battlefield who was probably not a strategic genius. He didn’t care about his troops, he was single-minded - just take the castle by any means possible.
@Holden Mcgroine yeah, another thing that kinda annoys me with LOTR and the hobbit films is that armour does literally nothing, like the full plate armour the uruk-hai have is easily penetrated by arrows and often even small cutting wounds with daggers kill an orc merely by touching the armour, the thing is if you have a knife like legolas or even a sword, you are gonna have a pretty hard time getting through plate armour, yet with a few quick cuts they somehow kill uruks, it's the main thing that irritates me about the series. the headbutting helmeted orcs was another example of this XD
Okay. I had to pause at 15:16 to make this comment. The women and children are not a threat.... But the Orc leader knows that if he attacks them then the allied forces will move to defend them. Thus stretching their army even more than it already is. Now sending a massive force to attack the city is dumb. But sending a few hundred soldiers is brilliant. It would be a large enough force to ensure a sizable contingent would have to be broken off from the main body of the army to help defend. The only thing not counted for here would be rear guard. Surely they wouldn't leave women, children, and supplies unguarded? So you might send a few hundred more soldiers on top of that to account for that. But there definitely IS strategic value in attacking the city.
Yes it is a morale blow, but as is pointed out, the orc army is already mostly inbetween the allied armies and the city. to go defend the city, you would have to fight through the orc army anyway.
Not to mention it is idiotic to split your forces up to kill HUMAN woman and children which dwarves and elves don’t really care about. If it’s their own kin then perhaps.
@@kingpet The Dwarves might not, but the Elves are sorta forced to care about them, because they are allied with the humans. Of course the human soldiers are all but dead weight, but nonetheless, as allies, it still forces the Elves to defend that objective. That, or alienate their allies. It's like chess, playing a game of where's the ice cream? If you can get your opponent to defend an unimportant location or piece where you have an advantage, then you can put the battle where you can win it. By contrast, if a commander can focus on the real objectives, keep their eye on the prize, then they will nearly always win against an enemy who doesn't.
The elves actually do continue to fire arrows, if you watch moments after the ram charge hits the elves you can see arrows still being shot in the air, however they are no longer being shot in volleys. Also it's hard to spot but in a few clips you can see ram riders in the charge falling presumably from arrows as they have yet to made contact with the line of elves. Also as others have said the attack on Dale was to kill the human civilians who where there. The orcs would know that the men would try and defend them and thus their army would be divided on two fronts. You could argue that the orcs had no way of knowing that the women and children where in the city, however there was not many other places that they could've gone so it wouldn't be that unlikely of a guess of where they were. Great video tho!
Tons of great points and an interesting analysis overall. Regarding the headbutting Dwarf moment, though... I think it captured the whole tooth-and-nail desperation quite well, and these Dwarves are renowned for their incredibly thick skulls (and they are less renowned for tactically sound methods of hand-to-hand fighting when in a battle rage).
@@shorewall more like knock out, thats not even too unrealistic and ofc you would still have weapons, that's a stupid ass question. because a sword is more efficient than having your weapon be your head.
@@gravewalker2452 I like how you call my question stupid, when it's in response to a dwarf flicking his head with less movement than swinging a weapon, and knocking large, heavily armored orcs to the ground. Even if it was just knocking them to the ground, much less knocking them unconscious like you said, that is stupid. "more like knock out, thats not even too unrealistic" Knock out someone who is wearing plate armor with your bare head, from a stand still by just moving your head, and do it several times in succession to different targets, and then keep fighting. My point isn't that it is unrealistic, because it is, but that it is unrealistic even in the LotR movies. "and ofc you would still have weapons, that's a stupid ass question. because a sword is more efficient than having your weapon be your head." IS a sword more efficient than using your head as a weapon? Because I think this dwarf took out more guy in his head butting spree than he did with his axe. If you think a sword is more efficient than headbutting, then you're agreeing with me that the scene was stupid. And your reading comprehension is bad too, since you really didn't understand my comment. Are you really trying to defend that scene, or are you just trying to argue dumb crap in the comment section? Because either way you are wrong. And either way you are also a troll. :D
The dwarves in the Mountain have not used the armour because the ACTORS could not run in the armour. Not defending their choice of just not using armour it is still incredibly dumb.
And thank you for doing this video after seeing your military Analysis of The Last Jedi I immediatly thought about this Movie and what has been done here.
The weird thing about that is that real, properly tailored armor isn’t hard run in. Check out the channel the knight Errand. At most it was usually only 40 lbs dispersed across your entire body, the same weight that soldiers carry squarely on their backs.
@@anon3937 a lot of the actors playing the dwarves in Thorin's company are out of shape or old, so while their characters should not have a problem, the actors aren't able to pull off running in armor.
to helms deep - saruman just invented explosives, literally no one knew what explosives were. Likely the orcs were told those are migcal balls that will create a portal in the wall to pass through and given Saruman being a badass wizard, they likely shrugged their shoulders and did it, how could they have known it would go boom? Explosives didnt exist prior to this so they were likely thiking those balls would transmute info an actual door or something. And given Aragorns reaction when seeing this he didnt know shit either, only that the orcs were up to something bad...which was very pbvious to begin with
Orkar Isber Yeah, fair enough, but shouldn’t explosives already exist in that age? I mean Gandalf had a firework show, and give how popular he is, they must’ve known about explosives, right?
@@awesomedonut8228 well the chinese knew about gunpowder pretty much 2000 years before guns were invented...and they didnt even invent them. Sure fireworks existed but to make the leap from "makes funny lights" to military adaption may take a while, also given the landscape of LOTR it didnt seem practical - by far most ettlements have no real defenses whatsoever and the few cities that have are pretty much immune to explosives if we dont talk nukes (look at Gondor, not much can be done there with explosives, and collapsing the dwarven deep cities....yeah good luck^^) Helms Deep with the sewage thing was just perfect for explosives, there already was a huge weakness in the wall and you didnt have to actually blow up the wall, blowing the fence out of the stone would have been enough to create an entry. i guess Saruman thought that as well but given how stupid orcs can be wanted to be sure XD Or differently said, humans knew about fire a heeeeelll long time but until fire was actually adapted as weapon of war...that took many millenia and until we actually got a usable weapon aka Flamethrower now that took even more millennia. or talking real world here, we invented fireworks in 900 AD. before we got the first military grade explosives it took almost 1000 years
If I remember right, the way Tolkien described the explosives in the book was very in-universe. Found the quote: "Even as they spoke there came a blare of trumpets. Then there was a crash and a flash of flame and smoke. The waters of the Deeping-stream poured out hissing and foaming: they were choked no longer, a gaping hole was blasted in the wall. A host of dark shapes poured in. 'Devilry of Saruman!' cried Aragorn. 'They have crept in the culvert again, while we talked, and they have lit the fire of Orthanc beneath our feet. 'Elendil, Elendil!' he shouted, as he leaped down into the breach; but even as he did so a hundred ladders were raised against the battlements. Over the wall and under the wall the last assault came sweeping like a dark wave upon a hill of sand. The defence was swept away."
My head canon about why Azog doesn’t use the worms in battle is that because the dwarves are expert miners, they probably have encountered the worms before, while they were mining for resources. They probably came up with some anti worm devices and installed them in the fields around Erebor. It’s why the worms don’t go any closer.
The only critique I have is on the Sheep. Ram's, this is an assumption on what they are, are designed to charge and take heavy impacts. In fact, they have two layers of skull and hit each other at upwards of 35mph. I can only imagine how hard of an impact Big Horn sheep of that size would be able to withstand, it's conceivable running into armor wouldn't be all that different to mating fight. Sides that I agree.
no, noteven armored drunk war ELEPHANTS will charge spear lines (they will go for gaps when offered the alternative and WILL fight their riders over chargeing into spears, also runing into one ram/armored human/elf and running into a body of men/elves is different, they may do damage to 1, 2 maybe 3 ranks but they will never beable to plaow through as many ranks as shown (and that is giveing them the benefit of the doubt)
Must agree there, elephants are no rams. You might as well stab at a moving wall made of horn. With the right training/behaviour these things can and will charge anything head on.
Well the The elephants Whet like almost 100 feet tall and very different from normal elephants.As when they come in contact will the Calvert you can tell the elephants where train the fight in coming forces .
@@Alejandroperez-rj4dc Because the best moments in fantasy utilize elements of believability (which the first LOTR films did). When something is just plainly ridiculous or even silly it simply takes you out of the moment. You want to 'believe' what the characters are doing has a purpose, or that the way in which they are approaching a situation makes sense, you want the 'why' behind what they doing to actually seem reasonable - otherwise the immersion of the fantasy is simply ruined. The elves jumping over the phalanx defies logic. Even in a fantasy setting, 'why' would they do that? What logical purpose does it serve? On the contrary, it makes no sense, it renders the Dwarf formation totally purposeless. In fact, I would argue it does - not - look cool simply because of how very ridiculous it is.
After the performance of Snowflake i know why now in the Lord of the rings, in the war of the ring sauron always had a nazgul overseeing the army above the orc general.
Let's be honest, you mostly see the Nazgul engaging in aerial combat and lending tactical support over actually commanding the army. It makes more sense, in a way, that the orcs don't really use advanced tactics. Their main advantage is overwhelming numbers, mostly composed of fodder, with the occasional troll to break up enemy lines and destroy morale. They just charge and charge until the enemy has no more energy or soldiers to keep fighting
At 9:00 the dwarves dont form a Phalanx. Instead its a shield wall, a protective standind to block the enemy. Two lines of fighters, the first line shields down, the second shields up. A Phalanx is completely different, consists of at least 8 ranks deep. The main protection is not the shield, but the vast amount of lances/sarissas pointing towards the enemy. That makes it hard to come close at melee range. Also a Phalanx is mostly used as an attack formation. A wall of lances moves forward to steamroll the enemy.
Ok so this comment is three years old, I do not know If you still think that, it depends how youdefine Phalanx, on your Definition you are thinking about an Hellenistic Phalanx like the Macedonians and their successors used, but Archaic and classic hoplites also used the Phalanx, and they used shield and Spear. Basically what I want to say depending on your Definition of Phalanx it is also just a shield wall. Also both can be used in offense and defends,
To be fair, the Orcs being ok with doing actions that will directly lead to others Orcs dying makes sense. Their basically slaves of the Dark Lord. Their lives don't mater and they tend to be a bit dim at times if not lead by one with greater intelligence. So ya, I can imagine orcs standing around chanting and cheering as one of them suicide runs to a large explosive while holding a torch. They may die but it will be for the glory and victory of the dark lord... if they even fully understand what is about to happen. Orc tactics seem to focused on mass assault. Overwhelming the enemy with superior numbers and little care for casualties as long as it's working.
Also, it's heavily implied NO-ONE has any clue what the explosives will even do. Sauroman had just prior INVENTED IT FROM SCRATCH and no-one had any idea what exactly would happen, the Orcs only knew what they were told, stack the balls in that one place then send the torch-bearer to light it, it will open the walls- How? No idea lol, let's see what happens. Aragorn telling Legolas to kill him because it was super-obvious the Orcs were up to SOMETHING and that's never a good thing for anyone else. BOOM goes wall and any Orc that didn't die in the blast... don't care about those that died in the blast. Into the magically created breach they go!
banzai wave tactics . Tire out the enemy with numbers, worked on primitive machine guns & artillery in WW2. Imagine how well it would work on someone's sword/spear arm after a thousand swings your arm is probably feeling like jelly.
In regards to the armour, if you watch the apendices it explains that the armour was too heavy for the actors. This is because they already had lots of prosthetic makeup and fat suits on, so putting bulky armour on top of that would have made combat completely impossible. They put a lot of care into the designs, but it was sadly not practical for filming.
@jocaguz18 Exactly. It's blatant incompetence. Besides, they could at least cut out/reshoot the scenes in which the Dwarves actually wear the fucking armor only to take it off. And not only that, it must be a poor set of actors who couldn't to their jobs wearing a total of 40lbs extra divided across their bodies. Even full plate armor isn't that heavy (60 to 90lbs), and we're talking about props here.
@@Ally5141 Not necessarily. Many tourney armors were far heavier, so it depends on the use of the armor in question. But as I said, mostly it varied between 40 to 60lbs for modern sets. I don't see why you felt the need to correct me on anything I myself already said. And finally, battle-ready armor made of spring steel (or blister steel for Medieval time periods) often weighed more than 30kg's, meaning closer to 70lbs. 60lbs is on the light side of full plate back and front breastplate with lance rest and chainmail. Mild steel also was often quite heavy because hardening it wasn't possible, and so it was usually made 2,5mm thick or even thicker, which is twice as thick as better quality plate would need to be. These sets could weigh up to 80lbs or more if you wanted equal protection to Wootz steel for instance, and even then its durability would be meager in comparison.
I think a valid criticism of your analysis, is that you did not consider enough, the motivations of each leader and faction. The Dwarves and Elves do not fight cohesively because of the intense hate between them. Thandril's arrogance would never allow him to fight alongside or coordinate with Dain or Thorin.(we see this in the book where the armies fight separately on distinct spurs of the Mountain). Dain and Thorin would also never fight alongside the Elves for prior wars, they also blame the Elves of the Mirkwood for not helping to drive off the dragon. The Iron Hill Dwarves, arrive to protect Ereabor, their original home/capital(Dwarf Diaspora), but hate the Orcs of Moria maybe just little more the elves, which is why they disengaged and moved forward without thinking to disadvantaged position. Mirkwood elves not to be outdone, hate this brand of orcs also because they descend from the orcs took the Queen and killed her.(huge campaign to rescue Legolas' mom). Elves are also really fast so they covered ground quickly. Again shared hatred between dwarves and elves, is why they don't coordinate. The Elves move into the city because they agreed to protect it in exchange for a share of a share of the Lonely Mountain treasure. Why help the dwarves you hate, when your contracted allies, who have a better claim to the treasure than you are under attack. Now onto Azog, his sole motivation is to end the Line of Durin, any decision can be attributed to this. Separating the 4 armies by attacking the city does this --- we see elves and dwarves are capable of cutting down orcs with ease together during the uncoordinated counter charge. Attacking the undefended and ill-maintained weak wall at the cost of one troll is well worth, attacking a most likely defended choke point.(literally the whole rationale behind latters and siege towers). Not to mention the orcs are closer to the wall, than the bridge, which exposes their flank to the Elves and waste time getting into Dale. The elves, human, and city of Dale mean nothing to Azog in the end. Attacking the city obligates the Elves to shift away from the fields into the city, isolating the small force of Dwarves against the blocked gates of Eraebor. Azog must likely could have defeated the Iron Hill force if they had not rallied to Thorin. As for the dwarf counter charge, there is no more vulnerable time for a charging army to be overwhelmed than during a counter charge that has the morale and kinetic momentum advantage. The early Dwarf--Elf skirmish is so well coordinated and matched is because they historically had many bloody campaigns against each other. They would have developed tools and tactics to counter each others advantages(missile troops/heavy cavalry). The dwarves crossbow tech used magazine and gears, it wouldn't be unfathomable that their ballista used them too. After writing this I'm not sure if this video was a criticism or analysis of the battle. Much of your points rely on critiquing Jackson's imagination for battle(ballista/goats) and your own lack of imagination(dwarf chariot/elves arrow) for battle. The chariots that you just don't like, are a force multipliers that prevent the small dwarf force from getting overwhelmed. I mean a valid criticism of the elves is why the 2nd arrow volley was arced and not held for a shorter range that couldn't be intercepted. Don't get me wrong I like that you're doing this and they will get better. Just don't scratch the surface during an analysis or cloak your dislike of the film as 'incompetence '.
To add to your analasys as well, you have to take the writers background into consideration. Tolkein fought in the Great War (WW1) which saw technical innovations in warfare, rapid fire artillery (fast firing Ballistae) designed to counter infantry (arrow barrages) Incompetant decisions by generals leading to uncoordinated assaults with large loss of lives. As to the orc commander, Azhag, it was almost a direct caricture of the Battle of the Somme, where a british general notoriously spent the battle in a lookout tower, watching the battle, and refused to change orders, despite massive losses and an obviously losing stragegy. Also a point you didnt touch on, is the goats, the video didn't take biology into account, and only used historical references to say why it wouldnt work. Goats as a few other posters have said, have a hardened head, biologically designed to ram other hard objects. Also, goats are surefooted, often known to climb almost vertical cliffs, so them climbing and leaping a shield wall like they did in the battle is not unheard of. And my final point, the reviewer constantly belittles the value of the city of dale, but by going for it, and forcing between 200 and 500 humans to break off the battle and defend, he basically split off a third of his enemies (in the book, the iron hill dwarves brought in 500 soldiers, who marched non stop for 3 days to get there with 100 pounds of gear). This was the tactic that also came from the great war, the zephlin bombing campaigns on civilian centers, to break the populations will to fight, and force manpower to be spent on on strategic operations.
I think the fact that they fight on separate parts in the book doesn’t stem from hatred or anything, but rather that each army deigned to take a certain part of the mountain. They are three distinct entities with three distinct command structures, so it’s simpler to keep it separate and just take a front each. The elves and dwarves have a blood feud and hold grudges of course, but they despise the orcs far more than each other and would readily cooperate to defeat this force. Hence why they do this in the book. Also, the orcs they are fighting aren’t technically the orcs that descend from the ones that captured Thranduil’s wife. The army they fight came from Dol Guldur, whereas the force from Mount Gundabad, the one said to have captured and killed Legolas’s mother, came with Bolg later and were immediately liquidated because muh eagles.
And the seperate front also happened during WW1: the british, french, belgians, ... all had their own piece of the western front. I wouldn't be surprised if this was a bit of inspiration for the battle in the book.
@@MDP1702 The writer of the books ( J.R.R Tolkien) fought in ww1 with the british army, he was even wounded during the battle of the Somme, some parts of the hobbit/Lord of the rings are heavily insipired by ww1 and ww2 also another aspects of his books are based on the personal experiences of the writer in the western front, for example: the part of the dead marshes where Frodo, Sam and Gollum crossed a giant swap filled with thousands of bodies of soldiers killed during another war was inspired by what Tolkien saw and lived in the first day of the battle of the Somme, also Tolkien said that after the war of the ring Frodo was victim of some kind of ptsd, this was because Tolkien also was victim of ptsd after ww1
You missed giving the elves credit for excellent calculation When the elves let the goats charged in to be dealt within the formation, the elves front shield walls would disperse to face incoming enemy infantry. Doing it like this allow the elves to properly deal with the goat charge, and the infantry charge while maintaining proper formation. Great execution, and I think that portion should be given proper recognition
the horns call a unit signal and then the telegraph gives the order. It is much more common than not for audio and visual commands to be issued than orders delivered in person.
Hopes this keeps up as a series, I find it rather entertaining: one thing you could argue with regards to the fact women are in the human army is because most of the humans are survivors from lake town after Smaug incinerated it so they have sort of being forced to conscript them into the defence of the city
And though I don't know LOTR lore well, it could be Dale has a long history of female formations for some reason, or that the woman in the formation took the place of their husbands who couldn't fight due to wounds or sickness as is tradition for their people. Or it could have been, "Hey Bill, do you think that since we have all these female extras as well why don't we throw a few into the formation to break it up and add more people to it so its more realistic." "Ehh fuck it why not, no one will notice anyways."
The only problem with the conscription explanation is not all the young women of Laketown are in the ranks. Later in the film there is even a scene where the rest of the women decide to go out and fight the orcs. So if conscription is the reason there are women in the ranks, then Bard is bad at conscripting.
From a practical perspective the men would have fought, and let the women escape with the children. Women generally make poor fighters, as only about 4% of them make the minimal male fitness standard. They would be more effective at escaping the battle and making sure the children survive.
Oh no doubt, but in the situation, none of them expected that right after killing Smaug that a fucking giant army of orcs and trolls would appear, nor did they expect to do any fighting period as it was like 11 dwarves holed up in a mountain.
The Men of Dale had a male army from start to finish. The Hobbit didn't have an over the top Dragon defending an impossible amount of gold. It had a large Dragon defending an even larger pile of gold.
I'm sorry I mean I really appreciate the time you took to analyze the whole situation but what really bothers me is you missing a very obvious key point that has never been addressed: There are Humans, Orcs and Elves fighting each other and nobody seems to even notice the Orcish army, why not simply wait for them to tear at each other's throats and then when all armies are at their weakest state simply move in for the kill? The Orcs would have won the battle in less than 15 minutes.
That could be explained by saying Azog wanted to make sure he would be the one to kill Thorin, and letting the elves fight for long enough increases the risk of them killing Thorin. He was also a very proud orc, seeking to honour Sauron. Not very honourable in his eyes to take the leftovers.
@@Mithirael honorable enough that he doesn't want to take the leftovers yet dishonorable enough to raid a town that has nothing inside but defenseless women and children? I sincerity doubt that his reason was because he wanted to be the one to "Kill Thorin" because neither Humans nor Elves would have killed Thorin even if they surrounded him, they would have most probably captured him so Azog didn't really need to worry about that specific part
@@GamingSpoiler I am not very well practiced when it comes to LOTR lore, But I'm sure your idea of honourable and an orcs idea of honourable are two VERY different things.
@@baconfish1016 you may not be but I am, Orcs have no honor, the Orcs have attempted to invade the civilians in LOTR: The two towers while they were travelling to Helms Deep because Saruman told them that the humans will be "Slow because they're escorting women and children" the Uruk-hai had no problem invading a village murdering women and children alike and during the siege of Minas Tirith they were on their way to murder the women and children hiding inside the keep walls. The Orcs are mindless minions who answer to Sauron, the Uruk-hai are savage beasts who swore their loyalty to Saruman, that speaks for itself: honor is not a trait they have.
@@GamingSpoiler Okay... You just added nothing new to the conversation congratulations! Honor is subjective, Meaning what an orc would consider to be "honourable" you may not. Especially considering the culture of the orcs and/or the uruk-hai, Slaughtering a village of innocents would be praised. Which leads to the question of do they actually believe in honor? No matter how sick or twisted their version of "honor" is.
12:53 Azog's flag-thing seemed clearly visible to the troops; different positions would mean different commands and he just needed to blow the horn once whenever he changed it rather than expecting them to count blasts etc, and he gets a much better view of the battle than if he was in the thick of the fighting. I actually really like this idea and think it could work. The only reason it makes no sense here is that Azog already had his commanding view of the dwarves and elves fighting each other when he ordered his orcs to attack. The positioning of landmarks/ armies seemed inconsistent, but if the elves/humans/dwarves were using terrain to make a phalanx Azog couldn't outflank that was supported by elven archers, they would be very difficult to kill in a head-on charge. Azog attacks the city then the humans break rank to protect their families. The elves can now fight with their flanks exposed since the humans are gone, allowing Azog to utilize his greater numbers, or follow the humans. Keep in mind that the elves have been trading with the humans for years and would feel some duty to protect their allies, whereas they hate dwarves and don't care if they die.
"and he gets a much better view of the battle than if he was in the thick of the fighting" This is actually how Władysław II Jagiełło, the king of Poland in XIV-XV century, commanded his army during the battle of Grunwald in 1410. Rather than charging alongside his knights, he stayed on a hill nearby, getting a better view of the battle.
The phalanx won't even hold, they have armored trolls that can charge plus having trolls with catapults strapped to their backs? Those rocks are going to break that defence.
Azog is a cartoon villain who wants to exterminate people. He doesn't care about the women and children not being a threat. I'm not defending the Hobbit at all, but that's like saying "Scooby Doo villains aren't logical".
Ben From Gulf City It's a matter of making sense and doing things in order. The people who aren't a threat can wait to be exterminated, instead of doing that right now he could have flanked/ cut off/ surrounded the armies that can stop him, and eradicated them first with less risk. If he just wants to kill and had no higher rationality, he'd just send the entire force against one or every enemy all at once, depending. He wouldn't care that the armies are occupied and have some strategic reserve specifically for attacking the city. He didn't, so it makes no sense.
Actually there was a lot more unit diversity compared to Battle of Helm's Deep when it comes to the orcs. Battle of Helm's Deep: Army of Isengard: Uruk'hai infantry Uruk'hai archers Battle of Five Armies: Army of Dol'Guldur: Orc infantry Orc archers Unarmored and armored trolls Catapult trolls Army of Gundabad: Goblin mercenaries Orc infantry War bats
@@taavidude Yes, but I was comparing it to videogame, because it, unlike Helm's Deep, looks like one. Both graphically (CGI only battles just look terrible) and tactically. Unit diversity is better than in LoTR, but most of non infantry units don't really make sense (and it still doesn't have more units than Pellenor fields)
taavidude Army of isengard: Uruk'hai with pikes Uruk'hai with sword and shield Uruk'hai with crossbow Ballista Berserkers (the unarmored ones with two handed swords)
@@PoorManatee6197 Well if we were to go that detailed: Army of Dol'Guldur: Pikemen Swordsmen Spearmen Axemen Sickle-Men Ogre Warrior and Battering Ram Ogre Catapult Carriers and Ogre-Riders Troll Catapult Carriers and Troll Riders Warg Riders Gundabad Wargs Goblin Mercenaries Torch-carriers Were-worms Olog Hai Warriors Giant Gundabad Trolls Amputated Trolls Army of Gundabad: Pikemen Swordsmen Spearmen Axemen Sickle-Men Orc Berserker War Bats
orcs are also supposed to be greatly affected by sunlight when it comes to their eye sight and he would be squinting and wouldn't see a thing past a couple hundred meters
@@matthiuskoenig3378 they are supposed to be affected by sunlight to such an extent as to make them incapable of withstanding it. That's partly the reason why the Uruk-hai were made, as they had no issues with the sun.
Apart from Morgoth is really real in Tolkien's mythology, Where as Satan is a belief and its not agreed upon whether or not they are bastardised versions of Elves, since the Uruk-hai come out of the ground
@@amandafranks5108 There is a lot not 100% agreed uponm in Tolkiens works because much of his vast worldbuilding is found in notes on stories never told, many of which are contradicting as Tolkien himself never settled in any one idea. For instance in Arda there is a sort of "Ragnarok" prophecy which foretells that Morgoth and his followers will return from the prison he was cast into and descend upon the world once more in one final epic battle, however no one version exists as Tolkien never really finalised it, instead we have several draft versions and references to the prophecy in other bits of his work, for instance the prophecy foretold that Melkor would be slain by Turin Turambar, yet another version tells of Eonwe being the one to kill Melkor. Because of this a lot is open to debate, however the general consensus on the orcs is that Melkor created them through twisting elves, much like how he made trolls by twisting ents. Additionally it appears that after their initial creation they could be "spawned" in large numbers rather easily, though again, this is all stuff we largely have to speculate on, since the only 100% canon sources for Tolkien's world is the LOTR books and the Hobbit, even if we have a vast amount of his notes.
If you want to go on the lore, Azog shouldn’t even be in this battle. I don’t see the issue with having Bolg as the commander with the blood feud with Dain/Thorin for slaying Azog and the Orc and Goblin wars. And yes, the orcs and goblins cannot stand sunlight, so perhaps it was especially cloudy? Uruk hai are not simply bred from the ground, they are the spawn of orks and goblin men or something to that effect, they are hybrids that possess traits making them much more effective. Orcs are technically also bred from pits in the ground as well.
10:30 “Perhaps we could use the doorway to our advantage? It’ll make for a fine choke point.” -some dwarf “We will not hide away behind some meager walls for protection. We dwarves are as strong as we are proud. We will fight them out in the open because we are brave manly men.” -same dwarf 11:20 “Perhaps we could use the dwarves to our advantage? They have already set up their formation and we can maneuver accordingly.” -some elf “We will not hide behind some meager dwarves for protection. We elves are as strong as we are proud. We will jump over their puny bodies and show them we are the real brave manly men.” -same elf 15:04 Orc Boiz military doctrine dictates that entertainment and food should be procured whenever possible. This is obviously a strategic move *sarcasm* lol
You frequently put text on the screen which your viewers can only read by pausing the video (since we have to listen to you at the same time AND because the text disappears too quickly). This decreases the joy of watching the video and I must therefore give a thumbs down. It doesn't mean I don't like your analysis.
My thoughts exactly. Hell they could probably just tunnel & collapse any standing structures above ground. How the hell would armies be able to combat that? Ugh, where did the worms go anyway?
I agree with most of what you said. I disagree on your thought that the orcs would not and should not attack the city. I believe it was an attempt to draw defenders away from the main fight by attacking the women and children within the city. This would thin the dwarf/elf/human army's ranks making breaking through and enveloping them more easy. Then they could easily defeat whatever contingent was sent to hold off the orcs in Dale by attacking them in the rear across the bridge. This also explains why they didn't use the bridge in their initial attack. Also, attacking women and children is a very orcish thing to do.
Also, i forgot to mention that you should always keep in mind about what "people" or culture you are talking when analyzing tactics or sometimes really dumb shit they are doing. for example the very wastefull usage of trolls to break walls: sure they are wastefull, and its not clever and inefficient. but you are talking about goblins/ orcs. they dont care about trolls, they are nothing but tools for them. so i think its absolutely in character and plausible
I was thinking the same as he was talking about the dwarven artillery. Yes, it is hard to believe but given the fantasy background of dwarfs it is just normal for them. Or the elves jumping over the dwarven line. Yes, it is stupid and everybody knows that. Does it fit the setting? Yes. In general this whole review is kinda pointless. But not as pointless as the trilogy.
Zeshi I agree on the orcs, but the elves jumping over just seemed idiotic. This is supposed to be the wisest race in Middle Earth but they’re going to foil their own formation right before the battle starts? What would be more elvish would be to plug gaps or flanks and fire volleys of arrows incessantly, weakening the orcs without even actually having to fight them.
@@thinkwithurdipstick the elves are arrogant and narcissistic they wanted the glory. Plus the thin dwarven phalanx couldn't have survived the charge it would have shattered on impact with the orc line, so the elves jumping over kind of spared the dwarves that fate.
Alfie Smith is that the case, or did PJ just want a cool action scene to relieve the needless tension of if the elves would help or not. The elves are arrogant, but they aren’t stupid. They basically screw themselves by becoming trapped between the phalanx and the orc horde. And the dwarven phalanx shatter from the impact of the charge? These are dwarves, the hardiest race in Middle Earth. They would not have shattered.
In other words book tactics are so much superior :). Description of Battle of Five Armies from book The Hobbit: "Suddenly without a signal they sprang silently forward to attack. Bows twanged and arrows whistled; battle was about to be joined. Still more suddenly a darkness came on with dreadful swiftness! A black cloud hurried over the sky. Winter thunder on a wild wind rolled roaring up and rumbled in the Mountain, and lightning lit its peak. And beneath the thunder another blackness could be seen whirling forward; but it did not come with the wind, it came from the North, like a vast cloud of birds, so dense that no light could be seen between their wings. “Halt!” cried Gandalf, who appeared suddenly, and stood alone, with arms uplifted, between the advancing dwarves and the ranks awaiting them. “Halt!” he called in a voice like thunder, and his staff blazed forth with a flash like the lightning. “Dread has come upon you all! Alas! it has come more swiftly than I guessed. The Goblins are upon you! Bolg- of the North is coming, O Dain! whose father you slew in Moria. Behold! the bats are above his army like a sea of locusts. They ride upon wolves and Wargs are in their train!” Amazement and confusion fell upon them all. Even as Gandalf had been speaking the darkness grew. The dwarves halted and gazed at the sky. The elves cried out with many voices. “Come!” called Gandalf. “There is yet time for council. Let Dain son of Nain come swiftly to us!” So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and the Wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves. This is how it fell out. Ever since the fall of the Great Goblin of the Misty Mountains the hatred of their race for the dwarves had been rekindled to fury. Messengers had passed to and fro between all their cities, colonies and strongholds; for they resolved now to win the dominion of the North. Tidings they had gathered in secret ways; and in all the mountains there was a forging and an arming. Then they marched and gathered by hill and valley, going ever by tunnel or under dark, until around and beneath the great mountain Gundabad of the North, where was their capital, a vast host was assembled ready to sweep down in time of storm unawares upon the South. Then they learned of the death of Smaug, and joy was in their hearts; and they hastened night after night through the mountains, and came thus at last on a sudden from the North hard on the heels of Dain. Not even the ravens knew of their coming until they came out in the broken lands which divided the Lonely Mountain from the hills behind. How much Gandalf knew cannot be said, but it is plain that he had not expected this sudden assault. This is the plan that he made in council with the Elven-king and with Bard; and with Dain, for the dwarf-lord now joined them: the Goblins were the foes of all, and at their coming all other quarrels were forgotten. Their only hope was to lure the goblins into the valley between the arms of the Mountain; and themselves to man the great spurs that struck south and east. Yet this would be perilous, if the goblins were in sufficient numbers to overrun the Mountain itself, and so attack them also from behind and above; but there was no time to make any other plan, or to summon any help. Soon the thunder passed, rolling away to the South-East; but the bat-cloud came, flying lower, over the shoulder of the Mountain, and whirled above them shutting out the light and filling them with dread. “To the Mountain!” called Bard. “To the Mountain! Let us take our places while there is yet time!” On the Southern spur, in its lower slopes and in the rocks at its feet, the Elves were set; on the Eastern spur were men and dwarves. But Bard and some of the nimblest of men and elves climbed to the height of the Eastern shoulder to gain a view to the North. Soon they could see the lands before the Mountain’s feet black with a hurrying multitude. Ere long the vanguard swirled round the spur’s end and came rushing into Dale. These were the swiftest wolf-riders, and already their cries and howls rent the air afar. A few brave men were strung before them to make a feint of resistance, and many there fell before the rest drew back and fled to either side. As Gandalf had hoped, the goblin army had gathered behind the resisted vanguard, and poured now in rage into the valley, driving wildly up between the arms of the Mountain, seeking for the foe. Their banners were countless, black and red, and they came on like a tide in fury and disorder. It was a terrible battle. The most dreadful of all Bilbo’s experiences, and the one which at the time he hated most - which is to say it was the one he was most proud of, and most fond of recalling long afterwards, although he was quite unimportant in it. Actually I may say he put on his ring early in the business, and vanished from sight, if not from all danger. A magic ring of that sort is not a complete protection in a goblin charge, nor does it stop flying arrows and wild spears; but it does help in getting out of the way, and it prevents your head from being specially chosen for a sweeping stroke by a goblin swordsman. The elves were the first to charge. Their hatred for the goblins is cold and bitter. Their spears and swords shone in the gloom with a gleam of chill flame, so deadly was the wrath of the hands that held them. As soon as the host of their enemies was dense in the valley, they sent against it a shower of arrows, and each flickered as it fled as if with stinging fire. Behind the arrows a thousand of their spearmen leapt down and charged. The yells were deafening. The rocks were stained black with goblin blood. Just as the goblins were recovering from the onslaught and the elf-charge was halted, there rose from across the valley a deep-throated roar. With cries of “Moria!” and “Dain, Dain!” the dwarves of the Iron Hills plunged in, wielding their mattocks, upon the other side; and beside them came the men of the Lake with long swords. Panic came upon the Goblins; and even as they turned to meet this new attack, the elves charged again with renewed numbers. Already many of the goblins were flying back down the river to escape from the trap; and many of their own wolves were turning upon them and rending the dead and the wounded. Victory seemed at hand, when a cry rang out on the heights above. Goblins had scaled the Mountain from the other side and already many were on the slopes above the Gate, and others were streaming down recklessly, heedless of those that fell screaming from cliff and precipice, to attack the spurs from above. Each of these could be reached by paths that ran down from the main mass of the Mountain in the centre; and the defenders had too few to bar the way for long. Victory now vanished from hope. They had only stemmed the first onslaught of the black tide. Day drew on. The goblins gathered again in the valley. There a host of Wargs came ravening and with them came the bodyguard of Bolg, goblins of huge size with scimitars of steel. Soon actual darkness was coming into a stormy sky; while still the great bats swirled about the heads and ears of elves and men, or fastened vampire-like on the stricken. Now Bard was fighting to defend the Eastern spur, and yet giving slowly back; and the elf-lords were at bay about their king upon the southern arm, near to the watch-post on Ravenhill."
I heard that the reason for the Dwarves choosing the inferior armor was because the plate armor that they found inside the mountain was poorly made for movement because of the movies rushed productions. So the movie makers scraped them and shot the battle scenes with their regular quest armor.
Yeah its in the dvd extras. It also sort of works out better as its kinda symbolic at that moment in teh film. They are shedding the weight of what they lost, accepting themsleves for what they became in exile. So despite being a bad idea militarily, it works thematically
It could also be so that you could tell who they were. Would you be able to identify Bofur without the silly hat? It’s quite a shame as with 9 hours of run time, you don’t really get to know the dwarves of the company that much. All you get is their odd design choices to distinguish them (axe for Bifur, the odd hat for Bofur, Bombur was fat in the book so that doesn’t really count, the hearing horn for Oin). And why don’t Thorin, ori, kili or fili have a beard, like a real dwarven beard. The dwarves in the LotR looked like dwarves, these not so much. Even the youngest of these was over 50, and thorin should be older than Balin. Been bugging me for years. But back to the armor, it still wouldn’t make sense. Dwarves are renowned for their heavy armor, and who would wear a fur cap when you have a helmet at hand. They were even a race known for making light durable armors, mithril being the key example but there are others. I would have demanded more time as well. PJ spent years on the LotR and put all the love and care it deserved into making a great film, the Hobbit trilogy seemed thin, like butter spread over too much bread.
Hated the barrel scene because it shattered any tension in the movie. The dwarves are indestructible rubber dummies.... Also, maybe I don’t have a sense of humor
Good analysis: From the last shot you can also see that they've drastically changed the amount of dwarfes. It's a small line of defense before Thorin storms out. It's a massive army again once he does. Same with the humans: It's literally 150 lightly armored soldiers holding a city against a good 1000 orks.
The problem with a military analysis of the Hobbit movies lies within the discrepancies of the depiction. The orcs participating in this battle were originally meant to be less structured and less intimidating riding on wolves. Then the armies of men, elves and dwarves were meant to work together to get rid of this threat, that is only a threat because they were previously fighting among each other. The movie, however, strengthens the point, in which the armies do not act together resulting in a barrage of irrational decisions by their leaders. Then the threat of the orcs is strengthened as well by giving them intimidating, well-equipped and disciplined orcs and a leader that isn't incompetent. The end result is a battle far less believable, since the good guys still have to win, while their depiction was nerfed and that of the orcs buffed.
@@JoniWan77 the makers of the film had a budget limit so there's always limitations to what they can do , the dwarves reload after each attack by each ballista attack which each dwarf hold ammo after each fire , the dwarves in the front go back and the one's with the ammo move up. The battle was epic. I see hateful people always dehumanizing films cause they think they can do a better job with budget limitations , elves are mythology creatures , there are many versions of elves , one move quickly in the forest , the second version , they move quickly cause they made them up seriously. Mythology creature are over powered , exaggerated , just hateful people post what's bad about films.
It doesn't help either that half the shots weren't ready for the release of the film, so they had to do their best with what they had at that point. This leads to a "complete" battle scene in the extended edition, where some of the equipment and units seem to appear on the battlefield briefly and then disappear altogether. One example is the ballistae, which the dwarves apparently only brought 2 shots for all the way from the Iron Hills. Other one is the rams, which make one charge against the elves and disappear in the extended edition, where as in the theatrical edition there is no charge nor ram cavalry. Nevertheless one or a couple rams just appear out of thin air for the main characters in both versions, when they need to scale the mountain to get to Azog.
One thing to consider is the The Hobbit and LOTR arent trying to make the humans, dwarves, orcs, and elves use realistic tactics, rather, the tactics are employed in order to demonstrate their unique qualities. The men fight as they have in all of the movies, against impossible odds they fight for their lives. The dwarves employ a phalanx to show their unbreaking resolve, and rams as a visual representation of their hard headedness. The orcs blatant disregard for small unit tactics (opting instead to beat down their opponents from the front) and disregard for their own troops (like at helms deep or throwing away trolls to break down walls) demonstrates their brutishness and disregard for life. The elves fight like a river, their battle style is characterized by fluidity, beauty, and grace, this need not be explained. Also withdrawing to Mirkwood was likely the right call. The fighting style of the elves works best in concealed terrain where they can attack and withdraw, fighting on an open field is not what where the elves excel.
"The fighting style of the elves works best in concealed terrain where they can attack and withdraw, fighting on an open field is not what where the elves excel." Care to explain that? In the lore the elves are faster and stronger than the other races (their best capable of fighting the gods themselves). They would also be fighting in the sunlight (something the orcs were loathe to do). Honestly, the elves excel in most forms of combat minus, perhaps, in the caverns where the dwarves and orcs usually fought. They fought plenty of pitched battles in the First and Second Age without a problem.
@@darkwing_don2391 I didnt say they were bad fighters in pitched combat, but they are quick and unparalled archers, meaning they work best as skirmishers. Skirmishers work best when they dont need to worry about cavalry. They are good with a blade as well, but generally against superior numbers it is best to try to conserve your troops as much as you can.
@@Zealot2024 I understand you weren't saying they were bad in combat. Perhaps my comment wasn't well written. Simply, the elves in LotR are unparalleled at just about everything, so their "fighting style," as you put it, is basically just "be better and win at all times," lol. You'd be hard pressed to find a situation where they don't excel. Skirmish in Mirkwood or duke it out by Dale? Honestly they would do either fine, so I don't think the decision to retreat to Mirkwood would be due to a fighting style preference. It'd be based on the decision of can we win now, or do we have a better chance if we re-group?
@@darkwing_don2391 They are excellent fighters, but the sheer number of orcs is too much for the elves, and they can't replace them quickly, so it makes more sense to try and conserve troops. Take for instance the elven contingent at Helms Deep, they killed hundreds of orcs, but against superior numbers, while they may take the field, their losses are not easily replaced, so in a war, it makes more sense for the long game to fight where you can kill off a company of orcs, withdraw without taking casualties, and repeat.
@@Zealot2024 Yeah that's perfectly valid. The downside of retreating to Mirkwood is where do you retreat to from there? As the distance closes it becomes much harder to fight a guerrilla war.
The thing about helms deep is that there was 10,000 orks vs 300 men plus a few elves so the sacrifice of 200 or so orks to take out roughly the same amount of human/elf troops was completely justified but yeah the orks did seem unorganized.
@@creeperboom8635 "This is no rabble of mindless orcs. These are Uruk-hai. Their armor is thick and their shields broad." I agree though, they were expendable.
Not to mention that orcs and even the far better uruk-hai are all supposed to be incredibly disposable and easily replaceable so it makes sense their leaders don't care about their lives. Plus they didn't really have a leader, Saruman just kinda said go kill them so it makes sense they're unorganized. Even at that, they were doing all they could to take the fortress. They were at the gate and were climbing the walls so there wasn't really anything else they could do. Plus you can say that they needed to distract the Elves on the wall so they wouldn't shoot down the torch bearer.
The first two things I can question in your evaluation is: You question the ability of the dwarves reloading ballistae faster then the elves can reload an arrow. That may be true if the Ballistae is not a repeating one. A repeating Ballistae or Polybolos did in fact exist in Ancient Greece and in the Roman army, although they may have been smaller then whats portrayed in the Battle of Five armies. But, since it did in fact exist, it is possible it could be built on a larger scale. As for the Dwarven Rams, not sheep, I would conclude they are much like sheep today that stand 5-6 feet tall. The fictional Rams would be similar in ability but larger. Actual rams crash into each others heavy bone structure at a force of 800lbs with no lasting damage due to the shock absorbing nature of the bone structure. Therefore, it is feasible that a larger ram could crash into ranks of elfs and survive. Based on most fantasy, Elves wear lighter armor then say a human or a dwarf.
I feel like some of the egalitarian critiques are unfounded. At this point in the film, Laketown has been burnt down with a large portion of the militarized guards killed in the fighting. Very simply the Laketown Forces lack significant amounts of trained manpower, and they have taken up defensive positions at the city. Laketown needs bodies to block the streets, not a disciplined militia. They are relying on the elves for any battle winning maneuvers, their sole goal is just to survive, and Bard made the decision that it was better to use excess weapons to arm the women than to just let them cry in the rear of the force as their thin shieldewalls broke. As for the elves, while it is confusing with the appearance of female elves in the army, there is a pretty well maintained trade route from Mirkwood to Laketown, which would mean size would matter less, and since birth rate seems to be low amount elves it is probable that females, although still weaker physically, play larger roles in order to maintain enough males to repopulate in case of a rout. With criticisms on why the LOTR movies show no females, very briefly: Rohan had a time limit, a supply limit, and a equipment limit, only the strongest and most experienced soldiers marched to aid Minas Tirith. In the case of Helms Deep, the situation seemed hopeless and thus they tried to evacuate the women through the caves, explaining the lack of them on the walls, and even then, Eowyn still fights in the battle as the caves come under attack. Gondor is lead by a broken man without proper mobilization or proper defensive measures taken. Furthermore, it has a professional army, and lacks the equipment to supply an effective militia or the belief they would have too The Lorien troops at helms deep are (I believe) 200 strong, and thus are likely a specialized detachment of scouts rather than an entire army, further support by the fact haldir (a border guard commander) leads them rather than a more senior leader.
It could also be that their culture is simply egalitarian. Also about the elves. As far as I know, men and women in elves are very similar. And even if they had they had the same dimorphism as humans, a elven women would still wastly superior in battle to dwarves or orcs.
But see, in all books elven women rarely participate in the fighting. Which is probably related to their low birthrates, and the fact that they take more active roles in civil administration (especially when the males leave to war). So no reason for female fighters in their race. Same with the humans: Gondor and Rogan had professional armies and well trained militias (Gondor had the best equipment). This were of course male due to the physical differences between sexes, the need to protect the females (as they're more important to recuperate losses in population) and the fact that once the men are mobilised, they take the civilan roles left by the men. Eowyn was supposed to lead the Rohirrim due to Theoden and Eomer leaving, but since the situation seemed hopeless she took the decision to die with her kin. There's a reason why so few civilisations (especially in medieval times/technological development) had women in their armies. In the case of the Laketown's folk it's even more stupid: to take and offensive task force (Bard's company) of untrained peasants is risky enough. Arming the women in the last stand defense inside the city is completely understandable, but not taking them for the offensive against thorin
@@1207rorupar I gotta assert here though, the humans and elves (especially the humans) didn't go to meet Thorin for the sake of fighting him though, they went to try to negotiate payments for the rebuilding of their city. They never really knew about the dwarf army or the orc armies at all so when the fighting started, they were caught unprepared. It's funny how we watch the movies and think these people are so stupid just because we have a God's eye view of things but fail to realize that we'd be like them too because they didn't get the intel they needed in time to prepare for the battles. lol
The Difference between a well written Book and a Movie that over does it's Special Effects. Some people actually get away with going against Rediculous odds, for instance, Crazy Horse took unbelievable risks and got away with them untouched by the Thousands of bullets shot at him. Maybe the Calvary Troops of the 1870s were drunk and incredibly bad shots, it's still hard to explain. While this is Fantasy, the battles in the Lord of the Rings were written to be realistic by someone who had seen battle in the First World War and had survived to tell about it. The barrel scene in the Book was far more subdued and more realistic than in this Movie. The First Movie's were reasonably close to the Book, this could have been done so much better by following the Book more closely! Fantasy Requires suspension of Belief, but you can only suspend so much. Enjoyed your video!
If you read Tolkien's essay On Fairy Stories he argues that fantasy should not require suspension of disbelief. I think I heard Brandon Sanderson say a similar thing. Sometimes fantasy requires a firmer basis in our sense of reality than real events do. For this reason you have a point. For some reason I'm taking the time to quibble about your wording.
@@iivin4233 In Science Fiction your allowed just two or three things we don't have, warp drive, transaction, telepaths, but Fantasy has Dragons, Witch's, Magic Swords and all kinds of Creatures that don't exist in reality, if you're not willing to believe in these things, what good is Fantasy? They often aren't realistic in Fantasy or Science Fiction, we have powerful Lasers, if you get hit by one, you don't neatly disappear. The Laser not only burns a hole through you, it superheats the water in your body and explodes you, a very messy way to die. The kind of fighting shown in the Lord of the Rings Movies, is far messier in reality than in the Movies! The ground would be covered with blood and hacked off body parts, these people barely get their weapons dirty. Not to mention their clothes and armor should be covered with blood and gore. Movies show a reality that leaves out many of the unpleasant things that are a part of that reality. Maybe I should have said a suspension of Reality instead of Belief. But it's much the same thing. While reading or watching a Science Fiction or Fantasy, you're in a alternative Reality and have to accept it's rules and creatures as Real to enjoy either.
someone hasn't played D&D light armour + high dex = awesome throw in some dwarven defender feats, armoured mastery and dexterity and hes runnin around in leather with like no max dex issues oorah
@@lilconch in Lotr its said that Dwarves arent as dextrous as humans who arent as dextrous as elfs. onstitutionwise things are turned around. To my knowledge dwarfs are the least dextrous humanoid race
Weren't the men of Dale including women in their force simply because their numbers were too low, and they had to bolster them? That's happened in history before.
In the novel they had a functioning army though, at least of levy standards if not higher. This was a deliberate change made by Jackson. Later in the movie, after the initial fight, there is a scene where the women take up arms to fight alongside the men and it’s made out to be a major moment, but I was left thinking “weren’t they already fighting?” That’s the moment I knew it was just shallow and clichéd. And is there a scene where children are fighting, other than Bard’s kids? Don’t remember seeing that.
@@thinkwithurdipstick I guess that's a fair point. To me, this actually seems more appropriate for what basically boils down to a thrown-together militia. Lake Town was not a very wealthy settlement, it was very much a shadow of Dale's former glory. I am guessing that Jackson's change was trying to reflect that and make them more underdogs, not to mention showing women and children at risk when the goblins attack Dale proper gives the battle a sort of higher stake, not that it needs it. I feel like that was the impetus behind the change, not some SJW agenda. But that's just my opinion.
@@orksy2935 Battle of Stalingrad? French resistance against the Nazi occupation in the 40s? And before the US dropped the atomic bombs on Japan, Japan itself was preparing the way for what it assumed would be a full-on land invasion, and they planned to fight to the last man, woman, and child. Even school girls were given weapons training and were being trained to fight. But that ended up not coming to pass, as we all know. Those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
@@jaygon8656 Yes I know of those, I was wondering more about LOTR era events, say between late medieval to earlier that are confirmed and not embellished myth/legend. I only recall mention of one from Scandinavia I think, where the occupants (mostly women and non-combatant men) of a fortification armed themselves with anything they could to defend themselves in a battle they were losing.
I will give you a positive comment amidst this tidal wave of negativity. This is the first video of your's I have watched, and being someone who enjoys military tactics and strategies, I found it quite interesting. I do agree with some of the commenters about the Men going to protect their women and children, though if the Orcs succeeded in massacring them, that would invoke greater deeds of derring-do from the Men than otherwise (this happens every day when a drunk at the bar tries to hit on your girlfriend). But still, jumping in front of the phalanx is dumb, not having the phalanx as a consistent line is dumb, the easy killability of Trolls (when the cave Troll in Fellowship took a fifteen-minute fight to down), and various things like that, as well as the fact that it was all CGI, does make it a rather bad movie in that sense, and I agree with you in every way I can think of now. Though I must admit, I get chills every time I see Thorin and the Dwarves charging the Orcs like that. Good spectacle: yes. Good tactics: no. Anyways, I hope to watch more of your stuff later on. Cheers!
It's better for the elves to jump or the dwarves phalanx, if you'd seen their lines were too thin to cover the battlefield. Alongside that Azog has catapults mounted on the back of trolls, he could easily say "Bye bye Phalanx!". Also doing military tactics and such on fantasy movies that are supposedly made to look cool and such. Ppl like you shouldn't be butt hurt about it, I mean I do like military and tactics, but I don't get overly crazy about what they did wrong and such or what would've been better. Hollywood always does these, which is why if your a military/tactics person, you mind as well watch something else to your interests.
@@koreancowboy42 I see your point, but I think the true problem with jumping the phalanx is that, when the Dwarves later charged, the Elves are just as likely to get run over as the Orcs. I'd have had my Elves flesh out the phalanx and pour withering arrow fire into the Orcs. I'm not actually butt hurt by this film. I think I'm one of a small percentage that actually liked the Hobbit Trilogy, but I will admit it doesn't hold a candle to the Lord of the Rings. I also understand that Hollywood cares more for spectacle than accuracy, but I think a compromise can be made with something that is still visually stunning but tactically sound (hordes of Orcs falling before the Elves' arrows would have been awesome, while the Dwarves chariots targeted the Trolls, that sort of thing). I'll forgive Hollywood sacrificing accuracy for spectacle, but only to a degree, and so I can forgive the Hobbit's goofs because the tale is still told: that of Bilbo Baggins going with the Thirteen Dwarves to Mount Erebor, a great clash of five armies that results in great loss, but victory for the forces of good, and Bilbo's quiet return home. I also just found that KingEmperorPenguin just made sense in his analyses, and wished to compliment him on it. Anyways, thanks for the comment.
@@timothyissler3815 some of his analysis is wrong somewhat, just the way he says just doesn't hit the spot of understanding. I only seen about like two analysis that are correct the others seems okish, but seems like a rant or complaint. Hollywood will make realism towards modern movies, but not fantasy, medieval times and such.
@@koreancowboy42 I guess so. He may indeed be wrong, or maybe didn't word it right, and confused/offended people. I usually avoid videos that dish out hate on films, unless it is like this one and takes a subjective, logical, and restrained view of events. History Buffs is good for that. Reviews that say "it sucks because it sucks because people say it sucks" etc. are annoying and have no basis at all. Here he at least says "It fails in these points for these reasons" and is largely very polite about it and doesn't just yell "it sucks!" every 5-10 minutes. And being a fan of strategies and tactics myself, I figured a wholly tactical explanation (i.e. something a tabletop gamer might consider) would be something up my alley. We are both of differing views on this subject, and I respect yours, but my view is that I think he largely hits the nail on the head. Maybe he missed a few times, but at least he makes more sense than any annoying hater ever could.
I love your review: here's why attacking the city was actually smart though: 1) the city seems to be a geographically useful position that could be used to anchor the armies of Orks attacking the flank. They only need the bridge, but the city is still somewhat useful in this sense. Even then you answered your own concern: the women and children were there..... That was something the allied armies Couldn't ignore..... They'd have to split their forces to cover them.... Which is what the attacking force wants. They can then divide the defending army, and defeat each part easier, or even potentially "in detail"
@@nivek4321 Hmmmmm a plausible explanation. Though It's too bad Saruman didn't know big orcs didn't work, maybe then he wouldn't have wasted all that time making Uruc-hai.
Gundabad orcs are different from mordor orcs. They're taller, paler and more heavily built as they come from Gundabad, which is an old dwarven stronghold far to the north where the misty mountains meets another mountain range. So little sun plus harsher terrain and climate equals stronger orcs.
@Sir. Anthony Orcs themselves are Elves that have been twisted and corrupted by Sauron (Who also was an Elf). Saruman explains that in FotR (first movie) when talking to his Uruk-Hai Officer. The Uruk-Hai were Orcs (Or "Uruks") that have been (somehow) breed with Humans to be more resistant against daylight. (Disclaimer: all of this is lore from the movies and thus probably incorrect xD)
The army weren't unified to start, so how would they have been organized? It starts out with the dwarves ready to fight the elves until the orcs surprised them and they recognize the real threat so they fight together.
Also do your research or even watch the movie. Men from the Lake Town under Bard. Elves from Mirkwood under Thranduil. Dwarves from the Iron Hills under Dain. Orcs from Dol Guldur, under Azog.Orcs/goblins from Gundabad, under Bolg.
@@mrgibbs7710 a company of dwarves, a legion of elves, and an army (the only army) of orcs. Everything else didn't even scratch a formidable fighting force, and laketown was laughable. If you *did your research* you'd know that a group of peasants; not even light infantry; would survive an army mostly composed of orc heavy infantry. The orcs SHOULD have won that battle. There was more suspense and belief that the Rohirrim could actually lose with the battle of Helm's Deep. Why Sauron didn't send a Nazgûl to oversee an operation as important as this one is beyond me, because Azog has clearly proven himself incapable of catching the party of dwarves prior to the event. I also doubt Sauron would trust an entire army (almost two) in the hands of a single orc. Gothmog was a leading commander during the battle of Osgiliath and the battle of the Pelennor fields, but ultimately took orders directly from The witch king of Angmar. The wriaths were released from their slumber at Dol Guldur well before the battle, so why they weren't sent to intercept Azog and take command is beyond me. Unless it took Sauron 60 years to make them all neat lil black cloaks for their journey to the shire? I chalk it up to bad writing and the director having no idea what direction he was taking the movie in. Times change, and unfortunately he fell out of love with middle earth. LOTR was created with the idea that they couldn't possibly fit everything into 3 movies, so they'd stuff in as much as they could. But the Hobbit was created with an ambition to use 3D cameras, expensive equipment, and dedicate more screen time to big fight scenes than making the orcs scary, the dwarves individual personalities we care about, and a story grounded in middle earth instead of "lul let's have them fight orcs while rolling in barrels down a stream". I hate these movies.
@@rasplez9889 only needed to scroll down and read "I hate these movies" to know where you're coming from. if you hate these movies why bother wasting your time watching reviews on them?
The elves dropping back to trap the cavalry is actually a real military strategy called the mousetrap (I believe) and was famously used by Alexander the Great to neutralize the Persian scythe chariots during the battle of Arbela, and like the sheep cav, they pretty much all died.
I forgot how badly this battle does “good guys need to seem to be losing then suddenly win due to heroism”. They’re destroying the orc armies then just arbitrarily start losing. Compare that to LOTR (e.g. Helm’s Deep, it’s going well until the wall breach, then numbers overwhelm the defenders, until the heroic charge and arrival of Gandalf and Éomer). It’s just bad filmmaking Also you criticise the egalitarian nature of this battle. Surely if you were creating a peasant rabble, women would hardly be out of their depth? Sure they may be a bit weaker but they can still hold a pitchfork (or other random peasant weapons) and are no less skilled than the men?
I agree he deserve more subs, but he points out things that have huge counter arguments. Honestly 70% of what he says in the first 11:00 I could come up with arguments and I dont even consider myself tactically inclined. I mean shit, some of the stuff he points out the plot or common sense explains. I suppose when you watch the movie only looking to criticize, you blindly miss crucial counter arguments. Especially when you have no one to verbally disagree with you.
@@barebones7835 While I agree to an extent, no person trying to make argument in the history of mankind has ever tried to come up with counter arguments when they are trying to point out something they want people to notice. The role of this video is not to be a universal truth to fantasy combat tactics, but to entertain us with the mishaps. Besides, teh fact that you donb't consider yourself tactically inclined might be the reason you can come up with arguments for it.
This is the fantasy genre involving the elements fantasy, most of the feats that are done by any other creature besides human are above normal. Dwarves weren't created with flesh in the beginning they made out of stone making them the ideal type to fight against dragons though their skin changed a long time ago there dependents still have harden bones. Elves as well have a supernatural power and that is being immensely graceful and super fast also can do magic. And the arcs are an abomination version of the elves that the first dark lord Morgoth created, by create is more like transform and or destroy and remake since no body beside Eru Illuvitar and a select few with his permission could create something into being. Tactics wise you are correct but if you have not done your research correctly do not attempt to dissect these create with human standards.
I personally think attacking the city wasn't really a bad idea. The humans at least would feel like they would need to protect their people and the elves might feel like helping since they seemed to be on at least friendly terms with them. This spreads out an already thin army and also makes it less likely for the elves and humans to fall back into the mountain. assuming the dwarf king can count he should be easily able to see that his men will be slaughtered and with just his fellow dwarves they still might not have enough men to hold the mountain by themselves. Allowing the elves and humans into the mountain will give him a better chance at protecting his gold and keeping his people alive. I also doubt the dwarves had enough time to stock enough supplies to hold the mountain and most likely the only supplies in the area was in that city.
Hello sir, I liked your video, but why do you keep the penguin in the screen? I understand using it at the start/end of the video for branding proposes, but leaving it there with the blue background is not optimal for the viewers to understand the images thst you are analyzing. I get that you may like to do like the penguin is you talking, but a standing image is not enyoable to watch. Don't get me wrong, not trying to hate, just giving my opinion. Keep up the good content!
Yes, keeping the armour on for the battle would have been a much better decision, and in the original, they did do this. Just that is real armour, and real metal, the actors couldn't act under the weight so the filmmakers made the decision to drop the armour and go without.
Joey Brandybuck I understand the filmmakers aspect of this, but I like to think of it as they know and understand that if they charge out that gate, it is essentially a suicide mission so they’d rather die unburdened than heavy and slow. Just a fun way of thinking of it.
@@MrChubbiful Dude, the Actors weren’t already CGI so them magically becoming CGI characters would look really off especially with how CGI is in the trilogy
the point of attacking the city is to demoralize the opposition. in human battles the goal is generally not the extermination of the opposition. but by killing noncombatants who are being protected by an army, you can rude the fighting strength of your opposition. "why are you doing that and why is it working" cause the director is ignorant and cares more about spectacle than immersion.
If Azog had stated that the reason he wanted to attack the city was to demoralise the opposition, I would have to agree with you. However, he explicitly states that it is to open a second front but it doesn’t open a second front so his reasons are absurd. Even if Azog’s reason was to demoralise his foes, he should have known that the elves and dwarves (the only groups he would likely be able to see from his mountain) probably wouldn’t care that much. I would also argue those extra forces would be better employed on the battlefield rather than attacking some nearly-defenceless women and children in a ruined city.
@@kingemperorpenguin1 Actually yes it does. Attacking non-coms does split the defending army (open a second front). This also diverts the attention of elves. In that situation Azog is right. Attack the unarmed which causes the Army to split in two.An underhanded move? YES Good tactics. Hell yea.
@coldlizard 2 yea real battles are often like that when you scratch your head, "how in the hell did that work." The point is the Idea was good execution bad.
Have to also see it like this: the orcs are blood thirsty savages. The opportunity to kill ANYTHING (women and children included) excites the hell out of them. Demoralize the enemy and motivate your troops at the same time. The humans, who could have contributed to the battle on the field, were redirected to the city. No doubt there are more than a few strategic blunders but you have to remember that the orcs arnt simply after a military victory. Their goal is total destruction of all things “good”
Exactly and considering that fantasy movies shouldn't really be taken into just because of military tactics, movies like Tolkiens Lord of the Rings did have questionable tactics, but it still drove on to be a good fictional movie for me. Every movie I watched, I never carried how bad the tactics were as long as it looks good, I won't have no problems with it.
Love the video but 15:00 wouldn't attacking the city draw any reserves away from the battle to save the city(as it did), making the fight theoretically more easy Also: who didn't the dwarves shoot the ballistae at Mr. Snowflake?
The Dwarves ballista seemed like a very specific tool against a very specific tactic. Good at one job with a pleasant bonus of softening the enemy line for a follow up charge.
@@mobiusblitz3470 the ballista is made for a specific attack, but its not like its a rare one, the elven armies have consistently shown that they excel at archery and its pretty unreasonable to label archery as "a very specific tactic" in this context.
I dont know why so many people dislike the barrel scene sure the barrel doesnt seem to be obeying physics at all and also elven woods seems to be like fkin steel but its still a fun scene to watch in my opinion
1. It breaks the Suspension of disbelief 2. It makes the orks look like helpless sheep instead of a real threat. But I can understand why this is in the movie, after all its a movie for kids, not like Lord of the rings
Where you are wrong -heavy cavalry has been able to frontally charge heavy infantry. It is a myth that they cannot do so. At magnesia Antiochus III’s galatian and Persian cataphracts shattered the Roman lines with even the triarii being routed. In addition Sassanid, Hunnic and Norman are recorded at dozens of times directly charging heavy infantry successfully. -can’t really argue with jumping over the phalanx seeing how elves are supermen in these films just look at Legolas V olifaunt, -Why wouldn’t the humans be egalitarian? In many instances throughout history militias, diasporas, and nomads must recruit women when outnumbered. Look at the siege of Sparta by Pyrus of Epirus or the battle of Petra by the Arab revolt. -Azogs plan to attack the mountain is justified as he knows it will draw a portion of the allied army away from the front, thus making the battle easier to win (divide and conquer).
The effectiveness of heavy cavalry on a frontal charge is still debatable. We don't know *for sure* whether they can crush a prepared and disciplined infantry formation with force alone. There are still arguments in favour of the infantry's breaking before/right after the impact. I think a rather detailed historical account that I've read somewhere tells of a disciplined cavalry force charging a disciplined infantry lines. At the end of the day, the cavalry won, but with massive casualties on both sides. The problem is, this happened not long before WW1, so they weren't heavy cavalry, and the infantry were also lightly equipped. Of course, there's no doubt heavy cavalry was immensely powerful in ancient and medieval battles, but we don't know whether they can smash infantry lines with brute force.
Aure Entuluva at the battle of Magnesia the Seleucid cataphracts shattered 3 lines of Roman Heavy infantry (the romans has never fought armored shock cavalry before) this is proven in multiple sources as the Seleucids broke through the Roman lines and looted their camp. In later years the romans became more used to fighting cavalry and so at Carrhae the Parthian Cataphracts were repelled. Mind you this was not because the horse would have shattered its bones or been afraid to charge. It was because heavily disciplined heavy infantry were trained in anti-cavalry tactics. This was however the exception even among most professional heavy infantrymen.
@@ChevyChase301 I seem to have misread your argument. What I meant was that we don't know whether frontal cavalry charges broke disciplined infantry formation that held their ground with brute force, which is in line with what you said. Yes, cavalry *can* do a frontal charge against infantry without breaking their bones and the like, but their effectiveness is debatable.
The thing with attackingDale is that Azog shouldn't expect Bard to protect the city, due to the lack of stratigical value it had. He only went there in order to protect the women and children, wich is stupid as he should already have been there if he cared about their safety at all. So attacking the city was only a smart move by Azog because Bard and co. made even worse desicions. The thing with the human force being "egalitarian" is that they aren't an actual military force, they're a bunch of refugees (at least all of the women in the shot were) who are just fighting to survive.
couple things :Why are you bringing up the mob of humans ( which are not intergrated in the elven army but a seperate entity) consisting of survivors from laketown ) being egalitarian when IT IS A LITERAL MOB OF SURVIVORS SEEKING PROMISED COMPENSATION NOT AN ORGANIZED ARMY. the second volley confirms that the dwarves are either 1: alternating shots between 2 batteries of ballistae or 2: are able to reload them fast enough. however the ballistae probably have limited ammo, therefore by having the elven archers switch to melee the dwarven engineers are taken out of the battle by virtue of not being able to abbandon their machines which will need crew in case the elves decide on another volley. however continued volleys of arrows woul only lead to more ELVEN casualties.
gerbenvanessen perhaps have them alternate in half volleys where half shoot then the next shoots before the ballistae can be reloaded? These are elves, they’re expert bowmen. Even with two batteries the elves could reload bows faster than dwarves can reload large siege weapons. Or even give them the order to fire at will, picking their own targets. Again, expert marksmen.
@@gerbenvanessen hahha no, just dont shoot in voley so idea is that there ia constant fire insted of one voley. Balistats can reload in lets say 15sec (in this shit film) so they can cut streem every 15 sec and that is it
Your video helped me see the movie series in a new light! It also helped to understand the minds of the people who made the Hobbit of why they made the choices that they did. For example, when the elves leaped over the dwarves instead of lining up along side them, it was clear that reality wasn't important in that moment, it was the way that action would impact on the audience. Otherwise, it would look like a football game.
my friend they are not sheep but goats. They are built to literaly smash their heads into one another as a contest. They could easily withstand smashing through the enemy lines if we are considering the force of impacts alone. colapsing just form the ramming is not a factor
in LOTR orcs are basicly tortured and magicly disfigured elves, so the have an elven eyesight which is eaglelike so he maybe could see whats going on on the battlefield and on mountaintop he is pretty save...which is weird cause orcs dont care much about safety usually
Seeing as they don't retain the height, musculature, lifespan, resistance to sunlight, or anything else of their (alleged) elvish ancestry, there's no reason to believe they'd keep the eyesight.
to the dwarve kings armor: it looks pretty good, only, that with an eminent battle the king would wear his crown on top a fully closed helmet. He entire armor doesnt help much if you leave your most vulnerable spot wide open. Now in a duell type situation that can be on purpose because you can be pretty sure that most of your opponents attacks will focus your head and you can lure him into traps that way, but in a battlefield where a strike or unlucky arrow might come from anywhere you really want to have a full helmet with face coverage. Other than that the armor seems unnecesarily clunky but sicne dwarves are low on dexterity and high on strength anyway, what might be bad on a human might work just fine on a dwarf and thicker metal also means better protection though i doubt its neccesary, this metal plates which are i assume made of mithril which is said to be strong as steel but light as aluminium might withstand 2 handed battlehammers...though the shock of the impact would go through just fine, so in practise the armor will likely outlast its wearer
Yeah because the main strategy of 40k is this Comisar: go and die men and then they will drown in your blood or l will kill you. And that is why they do it
I think you don’t get sheep / goats physical build and crash resistance But you did show more awareness for species details in later videos, particularly the narnia one All in all an entertaining critizim of a poorly planned battle Edit: fair play for having enough logic to tell sheep from goats
Hmmm, this mostly makes sense a few problems though: Firstly, the women fighting in the ranks is to show the desperation of the people of Laketown. Most of them are holed up in the city, which Azhag attacks for that reason as well as supplies. If it were to become a siege Azhag would win in such a case. otherwise great vid!
![The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies [ strategies and tactics in the book ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rq-aT7PaGfI/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies [ strategies and tactics in the book ]](/img/tr.png)
I feel have to make a point here because I'm seeing recurring questions in the comments section. Lots of people have asked if, when making judgements, I considered things such as these:
(1) The motivations and personalities of the commanders
(2) The differing military cultures of orcs, elves and dwarves
(3) Story elements such as rising and falling action
The answer is I did not factor in the above.
The point of this video is to discuss the value and viability of the moves and actions of the armies. Plenty of decisions in this film do make sense from a character or story perspective but - as the title of the video indicates - I am only discussing whether the tactics or strategies make sense from a military perspective. I am not concerning myself with whether Azog/Thranduil/Dain’s decisions can be explained by using character or story perspectives. In this video, I am only concerning myself with the viability of the tactics in question.
Addendum: I should make clear that I am also trying not to reference books or other related media in my military analysis videos. If there is part of a related book which can explain something happening on the screen, then the writer of the book should have been employed to write the film. When a person buys a DVD or goes to the cinema, they should be able to expect a complete work of art; a work of art which doesn’t require the consumption of other pieces of fiction to understand. If you need to read a book to properly understand the events in a film, then the filmmakers have done something wrong. Everything needed for comprehension of a film should be on the screen.
Well, the only thing that should be taken in the tactics is that orcs could be helped in their communication and coordination by Sauron. Even without the One Ring, one of his powers is helping with coordination and communication via mind control and mind communication (mind-speech?). Not so much in The Hobbit, as it is in direct proportion to his overall power and the presence of the One Ring, but definitely in the prologue of LoTR (Battle of the Last Alliance) and as the LoTR movies progress
I'd like to point out that elves think they're vastly superior to dwarves so I think while jumping over the phalanx is stupid, it makes a small amount of sense when you consider they're thoughts.
@@expertpoods5831 yup, and dwarves believe the opposite and hence the fighting
Still not a clever decision, and elves were not widely known for tactical blunders, even in Beleriand when they had less experience
Value and viability.... and include the context of the situation (Since it would make some arguments debatable or invalid). I don't remember too much of the movie, but responding to an immediate threat with the Phalanx, as it is their standard defense battle line, may have been the only option. There is also no organization between the 2 groups, but there is obvious recognition that the orcs are a bigger threat. Turning around to defend the entrance could also look like they are trying to attack the elves so it isn't really a bad strategy.
In the case of the urukai (eh spelling)... The idea that battle plans would be known to each unit is quite hilarious as it has never been the case. Each unit carrying out their objective will inherently look chaotic which is also in line with the story (Also they are fodder and pieces that need to be mobilized and moved for the end goal, and they succeeded).
Please make more videos of movie battle analysis please!
In the book, Thorin and company emerge not only in armor, but clad completely in Mithril.
This was super important, tactically and symbolically. They were not only epic heroes, with bloodlines and songs, but now they are literally wearing national treasures, clad in the power of their heritage. With this impervious armor, it made more sense that they charged headlong into a superior force and (mostly) survived.
That sounds a lot better
No, he was pierced by several spears. Mythril wouldn't make that possible.
@@Сайтамен chinks in the armor
Basically starting off though multiplayer match with a juggernaut
@@Сайтамен Mithril is not unbreakable or unpiercable. Also he could have been stabbed in the head or neck.
The Helms Deep tactics could be explained by the Uruk-Hai being only a few months old and never been in a siege
Or having such a large army they didn't care about losses, which is how it is portrayed in the book.
The orcs are slaves, they live and die at the whims of the Dark Lord. Their lives do not matter, only victory for the Dark Lord dose.
Also, another good thing to take into consideration, is Tolkein was a soldier in the great war, a war that was notorious for poor military decisions made by generals, and the men that died for those decisions. So he would have brought this attitude into his writing.
And incredible arrogance and not having time to prepare (they assumed Gandalf wouldn't come back and Theoden would fall into despair) from what I remember.
@@RoniWoodward , Tolkien didn't have the scene of blowing up the wall altogether. His combat scenes were rather scarcely detailed, and stylized to be similar to old Northern tales - hence the long lists of fallen (who are never otherwise mentioned), and hero-centric descriptions (Aragorn met Eomer on the battlefield and said X) instead of battle-report kind of ones (Witch King ordered pikeorks to position X to counter Rohan cavalry, but they didn't get there in time and got flanked).
Besides, Tolkien vehemently denied any real life analogies being there.
Dwarfs: *makes a phalanx*
Elves: *jumps it*
Phalanx: Am I a joke to you?
Their elves, what did you expect from race of hypocritical cannibals?
Elves are rlly light so it makes sense that they would jump over the dwarves
@@roryodwyer6775 So your telling me that it makes sense for them to yeet themselves over the first few lines of a formation right into the middle of said formation, isolating themselves from the main force of their army, one of the main things that keeps them safe, and placing at a massive numerical disadvantage, is a good idea in any way, shape, or form? they would literally be committing suicide with no actual benefit gained
@@orionsimoniantaylor2298 the elves are quite well known for skill with a bow. they could easily have used their arrows making use of the phalanx to slow down the advance of orc
My thoughts exactly. What the bloody hell were the stupid long ears thinking?
"Hey, the dwarves formed a shield wall. There's obviously no use for such a stupid concept, let's jump over it and die gloriously with orks in front and pikes at the back."
i have created an ultimate counter weapon for dwarves' ballistas...
A fire at will command.
Do you watch pixelated apollo or watch any Total War games?
Or fire by rank
@@ntfoperative9432 what does the fire by rank command mean?
@@Jonnell01 it means that each rank fire independent volleys. For example there's a formation thats three ranks deep. First the front rank fires, then crouches to reload and not block the second rank, second rank does the same thing, then third ran, then repeat the process as long as you need to
Or fire a few shots then fire the rest after the ballistae have fired
Or change angles after each shot
Or dont put an arc into it just shoot straight
Those things were just weird, seemed more like something ACME would sell Will E Coyote than a legit weapon
"Fili and Kili had fallen defending Thorin with shield and body, for he was their mother's elder brother" that little quote from the book is better than all of Fili, Kili and Thorin's death scenes
Don't do the battle for Winterfell (GoT, s8, ep3).. you'd probably stroke out seeing how awful it was tactically
@@alexheiken7269 To be fair: it is established fact, that the wights cannot break through a wodden plank.
@@tarmairon431 but can break through stone.
Let’s put the trebuchets in front of the army. That way we can use them exactly one time before they are destroyed. Also, let’s put the caltrops behind the troops to block off their retreat.
@@bradh3484 I’ve never seen this battle please tell me your lying I beg of you
That's was so terrible,,, they sent their cavalry in first and just watched them get slaughtered
I think the ridiculous tactics of Helm’s Deep can be chalked up to the Uruk Hai’s single minded determination to destroy the defenders and carry out the will of Saruman. The Orcs and Uruk Hai were already shown to have violent and self destructive natures, often turning on each other when there was no one to fight. In addition, the Uruk Hai were so devoted to Saruman that they would happily blow themselves up to carry out his will. It could also be because they had no idea how powerful the blast was, since Saruman was the only person who knew about the properties of gunpowder, the Uruk Hai’s stupidity (they were not the most intelligent creatures), or the fact that it didn’t really matter if the Uruk Hai were caught in the blast. The attacking force was composed of 10,000 Uruk Hai, while the defenders had only 500 men and elves to defend the castle. Once the wall was breached and the Uruks got past the castle’s defenses, the force inside would stand little chance against such overwhelming numbers. Saruman’s forces could afford to lose some of their forces if it meant the wall was breached. They had overwhelming numbers on their side, while the defenders only real advantage was the formidable defenses of their fortress.
Megalodon thank god someone said it.. I was about to. The Uruk Hai are way stronger, faster, and taller than their inferior kin, but they’re a little more organised, only because they may well have been drilled at both Mordor and Isengard. But it is already known that once they have overwhelming bloodlust or have only ‘had maggoty bread for three stinking weeks’ there is no telling what’ll happen.. they’re chaotic and self destructive, i.e the embodiment of evil.
Actually there were 1000 elves and 300 men, but it still carries the same point to your argument, carry on.
@@geminiwriter8875 days. It's "3 stinkin' days!".
@@noahhestand5586 there were no Elves at Helm's Deep, they were actually occupied in battles against forces out of Moria and Dol Guldur.
Alex Barker this is movie verse, not book verse. The book is completely different from the movie.
Also, when thorin and his gang come out of the mountain they created a perfect choke point where the dwarves could have held for ages.
They were in a beserker rage.
In the book, it took bolg and his whole bodyguard + thousands of flanking orcs to finally push them back. The charge resulted in that the wargs fell out of control, and started eating their own men, and it gave time to the others, and the eagles to arrive. If they were stuck against the gate, they would be besieged and starved
But it would have become a seige and I doubt there was supplies for entire armies stockpiled in a secret cavern.
Also, oof, 5 years ago..
elf commander: "JUMP THE PHALANX!!!"
soldier: "But Sir, that would clearly..."
commander: "oh shut up. this is gonna look cool as hell!"
but wre gonna die man wtf
i said jump the line and die looking good, now go, ur just cgi btw so no worries.
They could have atleast let the enemy slam the phalanx first. That scene has always annoyed me.
@@MisterBhuiyan yeah, I always have to shake my head and sigh when I see it
The problem is, that it looks stupid as hell, not cool ;)
Sorry but he dose it because elfs hate darfs and darfs hate elfs too they in "war"
A huge sin of this battle is that the humans are potrayed still as peasants. Bard did very much formed an army of a few thousand well armed soldiers after the Dragon was killed in the books. I don't get why Jackson wanted to show them as a small bunch of farmers with pitchforks hiding behind the elves.....also why the hell Thorin and everyone else took off their armors when it was going to be actually useful?!
Bard was also the highest ranking military officer of Lake Town in the book instead of a "troublemaker" despised by the town master
@@TheAchilles26 Social commentary. The whole movie is rife with it. I'ts been ages since I read The Hobbit but I am 100% sure none of the women came out to fight for instance, that was some shit Jackson added. In the years between making The Hobbit and making LOTR, he became very regressive and could not help but insert his views in this movie. I'ts one of the reasons for it's lower quality to LOTR, but not the only one.
@@Terenin His flagrant boner for Elves also became more pronounced
This exactly. The men of the north had an army, especially after the demise of Smaug. I was expecting to see an army, but barely got a rabble. Why the race of men were such pushovers in these movies eludes me. Bard was a fairly noble man as far as the books were concerned, a respected voice in the town, but I guess the comeback story of vagabond to hero is what the heads wanted.
And yes, the political tripe is definitely in there. You can see the women in the army on the field, but then there is a scene later where the women venture to take up arms and stand with the men. Weren’t they already doing this? Or was it not obvious enough so it had to be put on display. Also notice how no women fought in the battle for Helm’s Deep, even when the entire civilization of Rohan was on the line, back when the politics of gender didn’t have to be shoved into anything and everything.
Not to mention that an actual army would've made sense standing a chance against an Ork army. This horde of filthy peasants on the other hand...
I don't understand why the Dwarves and Elves didn't retreat and use the defenses of the lonely mountain rather than facing the superior orc forces in the field.
In the book they sort of did, first of all the dwarves and elves never fought each other, second they used the mountains geography (I hope I used that right) to set up some defenses, like archers high up, force the enemy into an area so people can throw things on them, its kind of hard to remember it's been a few months since the last time I read it, but looking back the movies are not good they added too many things that weren't in the book.
They all (including the Eagles) use far better tactics in the books than they do in the movie.
Well, in the movie, the gate to the fortress was closed, only when Thorin came out were they opened, so the elves and dwarves couldn't go in it.
@@da_ghoul9432 Even in the books they couldnt have done it. They blocked it up and only had a narrow passage on the side of a artificially made lake. Therefore they wouldve needed several hours or a day to get a couple thousand folks into the keep.
because at the time, the door was still blocked by a ton of rubble? They had to break the whole thing down from the inside.
doesnt that elf king have a burned face which he hides with magic? so being ultra photoshop could kinda make sense?
**I have faced the serpents of the north**
What? Why?
@@Richard_Nickerson Is that question directed at the fact that half his face is burned? If so that's because he fought at least one fire dragon a long time ago which doesn't end well for most people. The fact he is still alive and only got half his face burned is quite an accomplishment.
henk detank
That's the result of the 'Glamour' ability that Elves posses in some iterations of fantasy/ DnD. I guess P.J. decided he needed to personify this ability in the films, even though it's not in any way part of the source material.
@@fritzbaum7332
Ya learn something new everyday
In Dain's defense at 17:15, this scene is intended to show Dain getting tired and demoralized from fighting so many orcs and seemingly being abandoned by his cousin. He his exhausted, which makes him revert to his critical survival weapon- his thick frontal cranium.
Ok. Your point about calvary collapsing after hitting an armored target is correct in the context of our historical horse calvary. But these are Rams, who have heads and a body structure designed to well ram
Cav-alry. Calvary has to do with Calvinisim
@@Chris-zo4vu Calvary is where Christ died, so it doesn't have to do with just Calvinism
@karen took the kids What does underwear have to do with Calvary?
@karen took the kids What do underwear have to do with calvinism
@Avatar Ang pretty much when they fight each other they can put more than 750 pounds of force into a hit. Thats 750 pounds of force vs 750 pounds or more when they are fighting each other. Their body are designed to take that type of impact more than 5 times in a hour.
I find it stupid that when Thoran finally opens the city they don't fall back into it. We saw the opening was maybe 3 or 4 dwarfs wide so that would have created a great choke point.
Huh? interesting they didn't do that in the book either. Instead Thorin just charges Bolg's bodyguards which inspires all the Dwaves, many men and even some Elves which surprises the Orcs and pushes them back. Though again in the books The Dwarves, Elves and Men had used the Mountains geography to erect fortifications so that's probably why.
@@Mailed-Knight well to be precise - dwarf's charge led by Thorin, broke Orcs ranks and was pushing them back until they've smashed into Bolg's Elite Bodyguards and Thorin got injured - in which precise moment Beorn have showed up to surprise of everyone involved, killed bolg, his elite bodyguards, and carried Thorin to safety - at which moment evil forces were thrown into disarray due to chain of command being cut on the very head.
@@MehrumesDagon Yes, Trejgon is correct.
@@MehrumesDagon That's the thing about hollywood... if you have great source material. Why do you feel the need to change so much? The original scene would have been as good/better than what we got.
@@JoranBerserk well hollywood has few issues on that regard indeed - If I were to guess I'd say changes were made because, firstly, Peter Jackson thought the "lonely mountain siege" part of the book was boring (no action, only talks), secondly he needed to provide sensible conclusion to Dol Guldur arc to justify filling it in (altho to be honest I did not expect Jackson to actually do the homework to know that there was a case of necromancer of dol guldur that would conveniently fit Gandalfs "urgent" disappearings throughout the hobbit story, but inclusion of it into the hobbit movies without something to crown the arc in way that actually relates to the main story would leave to unavoidable acusations of jackson only doing so to extend the timeframe to sell more movies out of single book)
The moment where the elves jump the Phalanx had me rolling my eyes.
I had to suspend my disbelief that they weren’t pushed onto the dwarves spears by literally jumping into a charging horde.
I think you should also consider the fact that in the battle of Helm's Deep, the assaulters aren't an highly co-ordinated army of humans. They are orcs, albeit highly trained and organized, they are still fundamentally chaotic creatures that aren't exactly known for their excellence in co-ordinated warfare.
The army literally using a blind troll and semi randomly steer it in the general direction of the enemy is the most co ordinated tactic clearly
To be fair there about one year old
Another point about Helm's Deep... it wasn't just about taking the fortress... it was also about sending a message. A tidal wave doesn't need superior strategy to be absolutely devastating. The Uruks had the numbers, disregard for their own lives, and sheer brutality to not only crush the defenders (after the explosion destroyed the wall) but also to crush the spirits of any would be avengers. Saruman knew exactly what he was doing.
This is no rabble of mindless orcs, these are Uruk-hai, their armor is thick and their shields broad.
I have seen someone pointing out that throughout Tolkien's works, it isn't the orcs that make rash military decisions on the battlefield, but rather their enemies - men and elves. In the Silmarillion in Nirnaeth Arnoediad, an unplanned attack by a group of elves ruins a solid plan of defense against Morgoth's hordes. Feanor died because he threw himself at Morgoth's forces and was slain by his balrogs. I'm sure there were other examples that I don't remember. The point is, we don't really see that from orcs. They don't rush off rashly into battle, they fight when they are told. Sure, individual orcs may be cowardly, but when they are together, they can fight, and fight well.
Worth mentioning that the battle of Helm's Deep generally doesn't bother people because it becomes clear that the attacking army is more like a mindless horde than anything, so the bad tactics are pretty much a given. It's nut just the epicness of the scene that makes you able to ignore it, it's that knowledge at the back of your head that makes you understand that these creatures are not well organized, they're just a bunch of orcs that were told to attack there, and that's what they're doing. I mean, the closest thing to a command they got was an orc monster going "Aaarrrgghhhh".
EDIT: Do your self a favor and don't watch a movie called Mile 22, if you watch that, the sheer stupidity of every single person involved would probably push you over the edge.
Plus humans constantly retreat deeper in the castle as the orcs bredge the walls.
I think there was actually a tactical advantage to be gained by the orcs attacking the city of Dale, this is because:-
1. The women and children in the city are most likely fairly unarmed and definitely not skilled in feats of arms, thus a small force of orcs could easily take the city and slaughter the non-combatants.
2. The act of slaughtering the women and children would demoralise the human forces, after all how well would you fight orcs on a plane knowing that in the city your wife and children are being torn apart.
3. This thought (#2) would distract any human fighting on the plane.
4. This would probably draw the humans away from fighting on the plane, leaving just elves and dwarves fighting on the plane.
Just saying as I see it!!!
actually I agree with you here. It's most likely that the orcs pushed to dale as , humans/dwarves have priorities to lessen the innocent as well as unit casualties as much as possible and ofc the *humanity* feeling thingy. The orcs however just plow through , and yes demoralising as you mentioned is accurate as well, making at least some portion of the non-orc army head towards the city as a diversion where azog could tire out or hinder the elvish/dwarven army near the castle. (note that dwarves also had suffered heavy losses and would certainly lose cuz most of the elvs were killed of by the dwarven battista as well are sheep-rams and orc attack , and the rest elvs pushed to dale leaving remaining handful dwarves outnumbered af)
I also agree
If I was a commander of this Army i would also would have ordered the same. And as they are Orcs so they wont care much
The only issue I see is the movies depiction. There looks to be about 100 humans in the battle with terrible equipment and old and unfit for battle members. Honestly using a force that big to flank the army of elves and dwarfs would have been a much smarter decision to finish them off as a whole and then focus on the city. The army of humans are already demoralized and weak so there is no point in focusing specifically on drawing them away. It seems that focusing such a large force for the city was a huge mistake the prolonged the battle in time for reinforcements. Basically, tactically speaking attacking the city only gains an advantage against the tiny inconsequential human force, while focusing that force on flanking would result in a quick victory against all 5 armies opening the city to an easy victory and the mountain to a siege.
Well the way I see it, is that by attacking the city, you are drawing attention away from the battle on the valley floor, with how the men will obviously rush to save their families, and thus put the Elves in a difficult position, where they can leave the dwarves to face the orcs alone before the mountain or abandon your supposed allies in the city.
The one point I’d make about the orcs attacking the city is that it wasn’t a small force. He sent like a third of his army to attack them.
Demoralizing and drawing the humans away also doesn’t seem that important as there isn’t that many humans in the battle to make a big effect.
I don't know what you're talking about, the barrel scene is a cinematic masterpiece
Indeed
It did move me to tears.
Pretty sure that scene was from Crash Bandicoot or something
When I watched the movie I was so confused how he kept momentum so long
@@eddiecowen2624 i don't care, it's dumb, it makes no sense, but a little part of me wants to be Bombur in that scene.
I think you have to consider the fact that the orcs are really used as an expendable race, their large numbers and fast breeding rate make up for any losses that they take, as well as the fact that if they just sent the two with the bomb, or the torch bearer, they would have been singled out by almost all the people on the wall, and would have been cut down with countless arrows, so having all the orca there, with some climbing and shooting arrows, they distract enough of the defenders that they are able to get the bomb in place and blow it up. In short, the orcs massive army size, and extreme lack of empathy, is what makes them a terror, not smart or proper tatics
But then you would also have to consider the elves are supposed to be intellectually far superior and wiser, and have superior battle strategies developed over a lifespan in the hundreds or thousand of years - not decades. Which would make the whole thing far more ridiculous than it already is.
@@adifferentangle7064 but also, sarumans bomb had just been developed, why would the elves anticipate a new technology from the least intelligent race of middle earth? If the walls had held and the battle played out as a regular siege perhaps the elves would have been more help, also I haven't watched the movies in a while but aren't the uruk-hai pretty much a new race too? Created by saruman, essentially the elves have no experience in fighting against this kind of army, and their time fighting the much weaker orcs probably even makes it harder for them to fight a completely different enemy. I mean that's just my opinion on it, I am not saying the scene had no flaws in the plot but personally I don't think that is one of them
Yes. I agreed with the video except for the criticism of the Battle of Helms Deep, which has a good in-universe explanation. Uruk-Hai are not known for their intelligence or strategic prowess. They are scary because they are fearless and powerful and lack empathy. Think about the battering-ram scene where the orcs are killing their own men by pushing them off the rampart just to protect the battering-ram. Sure, they were given some strategic advice from Saruman, but they also had their own orc commander on the battlefield who was probably not a strategic genius. He didn’t care about his troops, he was single-minded - just take the castle by any means possible.
@@Moris342 yup
@Holden Mcgroine yeah, another thing that kinda annoys me with LOTR and the hobbit films is that armour does literally nothing, like the full plate armour the uruk-hai have is easily penetrated by arrows and often even small cutting wounds with daggers kill an orc merely by touching the armour, the thing is if you have a knife like legolas or even a sword, you are gonna have a pretty hard time getting through plate armour, yet with a few quick cuts they somehow kill uruks, it's the main thing that irritates me about the series.
the headbutting helmeted orcs was another example of this XD
Okay. I had to pause at 15:16 to make this comment. The women and children are not a threat.... But the Orc leader knows that if he attacks them then the allied forces will move to defend them. Thus stretching their army even more than it already is. Now sending a massive force to attack the city is dumb. But sending a few hundred soldiers is brilliant. It would be a large enough force to ensure a sizable contingent would have to be broken off from the main body of the army to help defend. The only thing not counted for here would be rear guard. Surely they wouldn't leave women, children, and supplies unguarded? So you might send a few hundred more soldiers on top of that to account for that. But there definitely IS strategic value in attacking the city.
This!!! I was literally about to comment this, but I scrolled down and read yours ;-]
Yes it is a morale blow, but as is pointed out, the orc army is already mostly inbetween the allied armies and the city. to go defend the city, you would have to fight through the orc army anyway.
Not to mention it is idiotic to split your forces up to kill HUMAN woman and children which dwarves and elves don’t really care about. If it’s their own kin then perhaps.
@@kingpet The Dwarves might not, but the Elves are sorta forced to care about them, because they are allied with the humans. Of course the human soldiers are all but dead weight, but nonetheless, as allies, it still forces the Elves to defend that objective. That, or alienate their allies.
It's like chess, playing a game of where's the ice cream? If you can get your opponent to defend an unimportant location or piece where you have an advantage, then you can put the battle where you can win it. By contrast, if a commander can focus on the real objectives, keep their eye on the prize, then they will nearly always win against an enemy who doesn't.
ya exactly why do you think the dales fight, because they are defending their people. so of course they would head back.
The elves actually do continue to fire arrows, if you watch moments after the ram charge hits the elves you can see arrows still being shot in the air, however they are no longer being shot in volleys. Also it's hard to spot but in a few clips you can see ram riders in the charge falling presumably from arrows as they have yet to made contact with the line of elves.
Also as others have said the attack on Dale was to kill the human civilians who where there. The orcs would know that the men would try and defend them and thus their army would be divided on two fronts. You could argue that the orcs had no way of knowing that the women and children where in the city, however there was not many other places that they could've gone so it wouldn't be that unlikely of a guess of where they were.
Great video tho!
No one's mentioned the scene where Sauruman casts the spell of "You do not know fear, you do not know pain."
And They Shall Know No Fear!... Oh, wait... Wrong universe ;P
@@georgewashington9258 The two towers protect!
"You will taste Man flesh!"
@@georgewashington9258 ERE WE GO ERE WE GO ERE WE GO
*WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH*
@@PhantomJavelin Da Orkz Nids mor Dakkaaaaaaaa
Tons of great points and an interesting analysis overall. Regarding the headbutting Dwarf moment, though... I think it captured the whole tooth-and-nail desperation quite well, and these Dwarves are renowned for their incredibly thick skulls (and they are less renowned for tactically sound methods of hand-to-hand fighting when in a battle rage).
If Dwarves can one shot orcs in heavy armor with a headbutt, why use weapons? :D
@@shorewall more like knock out, thats not even too unrealistic and ofc you would still have weapons, that's a stupid ass question. because a sword is more efficient than having your weapon be your head.
@@gravewalker2452 I like how you call my question stupid, when it's in response to a dwarf flicking his head with less movement than swinging a weapon, and knocking large, heavily armored orcs to the ground. Even if it was just knocking them to the ground, much less knocking them unconscious like you said, that is stupid.
"more like knock out, thats not even too unrealistic" Knock out someone who is wearing plate armor with your bare head, from a stand still by just moving your head, and do it several times in succession to different targets, and then keep fighting. My point isn't that it is unrealistic, because it is, but that it is unrealistic even in the LotR movies.
"and ofc you would still have weapons, that's a stupid ass question. because a sword is more efficient than having your weapon be your head." IS a sword more efficient than using your head as a weapon? Because I think this dwarf took out more guy in his head butting spree than he did with his axe. If you think a sword is more efficient than headbutting, then you're agreeing with me that the scene was stupid. And your reading comprehension is bad too, since you really didn't understand my comment.
Are you really trying to defend that scene, or are you just trying to argue dumb crap in the comment section? Because either way you are wrong. And either way you are also a troll. :D
@@shorewall Reach
I'd say the problem is he keeps going out of his way to try and headbut instead of it happening in a way that makes sense
The dwarves in the Mountain have not used the armour because the ACTORS could not run in the armour. Not defending their choice of just not using armour it is still incredibly dumb.
And thank you for doing this video after seeing your military Analysis of The Last Jedi I immediatly thought about this Movie and what has been done here.
The weird thing about that is that real, properly tailored armor isn’t hard run in. Check out the channel the knight Errand. At most it was usually only 40 lbs dispersed across your entire body, the same weight that soldiers carry squarely on their backs.
@@anon3937 a lot of the actors playing the dwarves in Thorin's company are out of shape or old, so while their characters should not have a problem, the actors aren't able to pull off running in armor.
It's a common movie trope that main characters never wear helmets or armour during battles. It's a trope that I wish would go away.
what happened is that they made fancy fantasy armor that no one could run wearing
to helms deep - saruman just invented explosives, literally no one knew what explosives were. Likely the orcs were told those are migcal balls that will create a portal in the wall to pass through and given Saruman being a badass wizard, they likely shrugged their shoulders and did it, how could they have known it would go boom? Explosives didnt exist prior to this so they were likely thiking those balls would transmute info an actual door or something. And given Aragorns reaction when seeing this he didnt know shit either, only that the orcs were up to something bad...which was very pbvious to begin with
Orkar Isber Yeah, fair enough, but shouldn’t explosives already exist in that age? I mean Gandalf had a firework show, and give how popular he is, they must’ve known about explosives, right?
@@awesomedonut8228 well the chinese knew about gunpowder pretty much 2000 years before guns were invented...and they didnt even invent them. Sure fireworks existed but to make the leap from "makes funny lights" to military adaption may take a while, also given the landscape of LOTR it didnt seem practical - by far most ettlements have no real defenses whatsoever and the few cities that have are pretty much immune to explosives if we dont talk nukes (look at Gondor, not much can be done there with explosives, and collapsing the dwarven deep cities....yeah good luck^^)
Helms Deep with the sewage thing was just perfect for explosives, there already was a huge weakness in the wall and you didnt have to actually blow up the wall, blowing the fence out of the stone would have been enough to create an entry. i guess Saruman thought that as well but given how stupid orcs can be wanted to be sure XD
Or differently said, humans knew about fire a heeeeelll long time but until fire was actually adapted as weapon of war...that took many millenia and until we actually got a usable weapon aka Flamethrower now that took even more millennia. or talking real world here, we invented fireworks in 900 AD. before we got the first military grade explosives it took almost 1000 years
If I remember right, the way Tolkien described the explosives in the book was very in-universe. Found the quote:
"Even as they spoke there came a blare of trumpets. Then there was a crash and a flash of flame and smoke. The waters of the Deeping-stream poured out hissing and foaming: they were choked no longer, a gaping hole was blasted in the wall. A host of dark shapes poured in.
'Devilry of Saruman!' cried Aragorn. 'They have crept in the culvert again, while we talked, and they have lit the fire of Orthanc beneath our feet. 'Elendil, Elendil!' he shouted, as he leaped down into the breach; but even as he did so a hundred ladders were raised against the battlements. Over the wall and under the wall the last assault came sweeping like a dark wave upon a hill of sand. The defence was swept away."
@Cyanide The Soviet Union wishes they had that level of manpower.
Vilheim i believe Tolkien meant for it to be magic from Saruman, not actual explosives. But it’s been a while since I’ve read the books
My head canon about why Azog doesn’t use the worms in battle is that because the dwarves are expert miners, they probably have encountered the worms before, while they were mining for resources. They probably came up with some anti worm devices and installed them in the fields around Erebor. It’s why the worms don’t go any closer.
I just thought that they were subterranean creatures, and allergic to sunlight.
@@shorewall that could be true, but they could have tunneled straight into the mountain if it was just sunlight. But yeah, it’s a conundrum lol
@@violatorut2003 That is a good point. :D
The only critique I have is on the Sheep. Ram's, this is an assumption on what they are, are designed to charge and take heavy impacts. In fact, they have two layers of skull and hit each other at upwards of 35mph. I can only imagine how hard of an impact Big Horn sheep of that size would be able to withstand, it's conceivable running into armor wouldn't be all that different to mating fight.
Sides that I agree.
no, noteven armored drunk war ELEPHANTS will charge spear lines (they will go for gaps when offered the alternative and WILL fight their riders over chargeing into spears, also runing into one ram/armored human/elf and running into a body of men/elves is different, they may do damage to 1, 2 maybe 3 ranks but they will never beable to plaow through as many ranks as shown (and that is giveing them the benefit of the doubt)
Elephants are usually not aggressive.
Must agree there, elephants are no rams. You might as well stab at a moving wall made of horn. With the right training/behaviour these things can and will charge anything head on.
Well the The elephants Whet like almost 100 feet tall and very different from normal elephants.As when they come in contact will the Calvert you can tell the elephants where train the fight in coming forces .
White Neko Knight they also had thick plate armor on it
The first time I saw this battle, I actually broke out laughing when the elves jumped over the dwarves XD It was just so plainly ridiculous.
I was laughing when I left the theathre couldn't take anything in the movie serious anymore.
Regulus Black why would you take seriously a fantasy film
Yeah, it looks cool but it just doesnt make sense from any military perspective
@@Alejandroperez-rj4dc Because the best moments in fantasy utilize elements of believability (which the first LOTR films did). When something is just plainly ridiculous or even silly it simply takes you out of the moment. You want to 'believe' what the characters are doing has a purpose, or that the way in which they are approaching a situation makes sense, you want the 'why' behind what they doing to actually seem reasonable - otherwise the immersion of the fantasy is simply ruined.
The elves jumping over the phalanx defies logic. Even in a fantasy setting, 'why' would they do that? What logical purpose does it serve? On the contrary, it makes no sense, it renders the Dwarf formation totally purposeless. In fact, I would argue it does - not - look cool simply because of how very ridiculous it is.
lol me too. but at least we get a cool scenic shot right?
After the performance of Snowflake i know why now in the Lord of the rings, in the war of the ring sauron always had a nazgul overseeing the army above the orc general.
Too baf he didn't have a a signal flag and a really loud horn
@@jordanbauman-putnam9524 I'm sure a Nazgul and his Feelbeast could scream loud enough tho
Let's be honest, you mostly see the Nazgul engaging in aerial combat and lending tactical support over actually commanding the army. It makes more sense, in a way, that the orcs don't really use advanced tactics. Their main advantage is overwhelming numbers, mostly composed of fodder, with the occasional troll to break up enemy lines and destroy morale. They just charge and charge until the enemy has no more energy or soldiers to keep fighting
@@ServantofBaal They are the Soviets of Middleearth
Killbotter yeah that’s the one thing I found odd about the video, the orcs never were about tactics just send more body’s until it dies.
At 9:00 the dwarves dont form a Phalanx. Instead its a shield wall, a protective standind to block the enemy. Two lines of fighters, the first line shields down, the second shields up. A Phalanx is completely different, consists of at least 8 ranks deep. The main protection is not the shield, but the vast amount of lances/sarissas pointing towards the enemy. That makes it hard to come close at melee range. Also a Phalanx is mostly used as an attack formation. A wall of lances moves forward to steamroll the enemy.
Ok so this comment is three years old, I do not know If you still think that, it depends how youdefine Phalanx, on your Definition you are thinking about an Hellenistic Phalanx like the Macedonians and their successors used, but Archaic and classic hoplites also used the Phalanx, and they used shield and Spear. Basically what I want to say depending on your Definition of Phalanx it is also just a shield wall. Also both can be used in offense and defends,
To be fair, the Orcs being ok with doing actions that will directly lead to others Orcs dying makes sense. Their basically slaves of the Dark Lord. Their lives don't mater and they tend to be a bit dim at times if not lead by one with greater intelligence. So ya, I can imagine orcs standing around chanting and cheering as one of them suicide runs to a large explosive while holding a torch. They may die but it will be for the glory and victory of the dark lord... if they even fully understand what is about to happen.
Orc tactics seem to focused on mass assault. Overwhelming the enemy with superior numbers and little care for casualties as long as it's working.
Also, it's heavily implied NO-ONE has any clue what the explosives will even do. Sauroman had just prior INVENTED IT FROM SCRATCH and no-one had any idea what exactly would happen, the Orcs only knew what they were told, stack the balls in that one place then send the torch-bearer to light it, it will open the walls- How? No idea lol, let's see what happens. Aragorn telling Legolas to kill him because it was super-obvious the Orcs were up to SOMETHING and that's never a good thing for anyone else. BOOM goes wall and any Orc that didn't die in the blast... don't care about those that died in the blast. Into the magically created breach they go!
banzai wave tactics . Tire out the enemy with numbers, worked on primitive machine guns & artillery in WW2. Imagine how well it would work on someone's sword/spear arm after a thousand swings your arm is probably feeling like jelly.
@@sean-michaelconroy7686 actualy URSS tactics against germans on Eastern Front :))))
In regards to the armour, if you watch the apendices it explains that the armour was too heavy for the actors. This is because they already had lots of prosthetic makeup and fat suits on, so putting bulky armour on top of that would have made combat completely impossible. They put a lot of care into the designs, but it was sadly not practical for filming.
@jocaguz18 Exactly. It's blatant incompetence. Besides, they could at least cut out/reshoot the scenes in which the Dwarves actually wear the fucking armor only to take it off. And not only that, it must be a poor set of actors who couldn't to their jobs wearing a total of 40lbs extra divided across their bodies. Even full plate armor isn't that heavy (60 to 90lbs), and we're talking about props here.
Peaceful Dawn Then that means they made it really shitty
Some of these replies 🤦🏼♂️. It’s not even fucking worth it anymore to try
@@TheStraightestWhitest Even full plate armor is 60lbs tops.
@@Ally5141 Not necessarily. Many tourney armors were far heavier, so it depends on the use of the armor in question.
But as I said, mostly it varied between 40 to 60lbs for modern sets. I don't see why you felt the need to correct me on anything I myself already said.
And finally, battle-ready armor made of spring steel (or blister steel for Medieval time periods) often weighed more than 30kg's, meaning closer to 70lbs. 60lbs is on the light side of full plate back and front breastplate with lance rest and chainmail. Mild steel also was often quite heavy because hardening it wasn't possible, and so it was usually made 2,5mm thick or even thicker, which is twice as thick as better quality plate would need to be. These sets could weigh up to 80lbs or more if you wanted equal protection to Wootz steel for instance, and even then its durability would be meager in comparison.
I think a valid criticism of your analysis, is that you did not consider enough, the motivations of each leader and faction. The Dwarves and Elves do not fight cohesively because of the intense hate between them. Thandril's arrogance would never allow him to fight alongside or coordinate with Dain or Thorin.(we see this in the book where the armies fight separately on distinct spurs of the Mountain). Dain and Thorin would also never fight alongside the Elves for prior wars, they also blame the Elves of the Mirkwood for not helping to drive off the dragon.
The Iron Hill Dwarves, arrive to protect Ereabor, their original home/capital(Dwarf Diaspora), but hate the Orcs of Moria maybe just little more the elves, which is why they disengaged and moved forward without thinking to disadvantaged position. Mirkwood elves not to be outdone, hate this brand of orcs also because they descend from the orcs took the Queen and killed her.(huge campaign to rescue Legolas' mom). Elves are also really fast so they covered ground quickly. Again shared hatred between dwarves and elves, is why they don't coordinate. The Elves move into the city because they agreed to protect it in exchange for a share of a share of the Lonely Mountain treasure. Why help the dwarves you hate, when your contracted allies, who have a better claim to the treasure than you are under attack.
Now onto Azog, his sole motivation is to end the Line of Durin, any decision can be attributed to this. Separating the 4 armies by attacking the city does this --- we see elves and dwarves are capable of cutting down orcs with ease together during the uncoordinated counter charge. Attacking the undefended and ill-maintained weak wall at the cost of one troll is well worth, attacking a most likely defended choke point.(literally the whole rationale behind latters and siege towers). Not to mention the orcs are closer to the wall, than the bridge, which exposes their flank to the Elves and waste time getting into Dale. The elves, human, and city of Dale mean nothing to Azog in the end. Attacking the city obligates the Elves to shift away from the fields into the city, isolating the small force of Dwarves against the blocked gates of Eraebor. Azog must likely could have defeated the Iron Hill force if they had not rallied to Thorin. As for the dwarf counter charge, there is no more vulnerable time for a charging army to be overwhelmed than during a counter charge that has the morale and kinetic momentum advantage.
The early Dwarf--Elf skirmish is so well coordinated and matched is because they historically had many bloody campaigns against each other. They would have developed tools and tactics to counter each others advantages(missile troops/heavy cavalry). The dwarves crossbow tech used magazine and gears, it wouldn't be unfathomable that their ballista used them too.
After writing this I'm not sure if this video was a criticism or analysis of the battle. Much of your points rely on critiquing Jackson's imagination for battle(ballista/goats) and your own lack of imagination(dwarf chariot/elves arrow) for battle. The chariots that you just don't like, are a force multipliers that prevent the small dwarf force from getting overwhelmed. I mean a valid criticism of the elves is why the 2nd arrow volley was arced and not held for a shorter range that couldn't be intercepted.
Don't get me wrong I like that you're doing this and they will get better. Just don't scratch the surface during an analysis or cloak your dislike of the film as 'incompetence '.
To add to your analasys as well, you have to take the writers background into consideration. Tolkein fought in the Great War (WW1) which saw technical innovations in warfare, rapid fire artillery (fast firing Ballistae) designed to counter infantry (arrow barrages) Incompetant decisions by generals leading to uncoordinated assaults with large loss of lives. As to the orc commander, Azhag, it was almost a direct caricture of the Battle of the Somme, where a british general notoriously spent the battle in a lookout tower, watching the battle, and refused to change orders, despite massive losses and an obviously losing stragegy. Also a point you didnt touch on, is the goats, the video didn't take biology into account, and only used historical references to say why it wouldnt work. Goats as a few other posters have said, have a hardened head, biologically designed to ram other hard objects. Also, goats are surefooted, often known to climb almost vertical cliffs, so them climbing and leaping a shield wall like they did in the battle is not unheard of. And my final point, the reviewer constantly belittles the value of the city of dale, but by going for it, and forcing between 200 and 500 humans to break off the battle and defend, he basically split off a third of his enemies (in the book, the iron hill dwarves brought in 500 soldiers, who marched non stop for 3 days to get there with 100 pounds of gear). This was the tactic that also came from the great war, the zephlin bombing campaigns on civilian centers, to break the populations will to fight, and force manpower to be spent on on strategic operations.
@@RoniWoodward well the analysis is on the movie interpretation so I tried not to reference Tolkien or the novel.
I think the fact that they fight on separate parts in the book doesn’t stem from hatred or anything, but rather that each army deigned to take a certain part of the mountain. They are three distinct entities with three distinct command structures, so it’s simpler to keep it separate and just take a front each. The elves and dwarves have a blood feud and hold grudges of course, but they despise the orcs far more than each other and would readily cooperate to defeat this force. Hence why they do this in the book.
Also, the orcs they are fighting aren’t technically the orcs that descend from the ones that captured Thranduil’s wife. The army they fight came from Dol Guldur, whereas the force from Mount Gundabad, the one said to have captured and killed Legolas’s mother, came with Bolg later and were immediately liquidated because muh eagles.
And the seperate front also happened during WW1: the british, french, belgians, ... all had their own piece of the western front. I wouldn't be surprised if this was a bit of inspiration for the battle in the book.
@@MDP1702 The writer of the books ( J.R.R Tolkien) fought in ww1 with the british army, he was even wounded during the battle of the Somme, some parts of the hobbit/Lord of the rings are heavily insipired by ww1 and ww2 also another aspects of his books are based on the personal experiences of the writer in the western front, for example: the part of the dead marshes where Frodo, Sam and Gollum crossed a giant swap filled with thousands of bodies of soldiers killed during another war was inspired by what Tolkien saw and lived in the first day of the battle of the Somme, also Tolkien said that after the war of the ring Frodo was victim of some kind of ptsd, this was because Tolkien also was victim of ptsd after ww1
You missed giving the elves credit for excellent calculation
When the elves let the goats charged in to be dealt within the formation, the elves front shield walls would disperse to face incoming enemy infantry. Doing it like this allow the elves to properly deal with the goat charge, and the infantry charge while maintaining proper formation. Great execution, and I think that portion should be given proper recognition
the horns call a unit signal and then the telegraph gives the order. It is much more common than not for audio and visual commands to be issued than orders delivered in person.
Hopes this keeps up as a series, I find it rather entertaining: one thing you could argue with regards to the fact women are in the human army is because most of the humans are survivors from lake town after Smaug incinerated it so they have sort of being forced to conscript them into the defence of the city
And though I don't know LOTR lore well, it could be Dale has a long history of female formations for some reason, or that the woman in the formation took the place of their husbands who couldn't fight due to wounds or sickness as is tradition for their people.
Or it could have been, "Hey Bill, do you think that since we have all these female extras as well why don't we throw a few into the formation to break it up and add more people to it so its more realistic."
"Ehh fuck it why not, no one will notice anyways."
The only problem with the conscription explanation is not all the young women of Laketown are in the ranks. Later in the film there is even a scene where the rest of the women decide to go out and fight the orcs. So if conscription is the reason there are women in the ranks, then Bard is bad at conscripting.
From a practical perspective the men would have fought, and let the women escape with the children. Women generally make poor fighters, as only about 4% of them make the minimal male fitness standard. They would be more effective at escaping the battle and making sure the children survive.
Oh no doubt, but in the situation, none of them expected that right after killing Smaug that a fucking giant army of orcs and trolls would appear, nor did they expect to do any fighting period as it was like 11 dwarves holed up in a mountain.
The Men of Dale had a male army from start to finish. The Hobbit didn't have an over the top Dragon defending an impossible amount of gold. It had a large Dragon defending an even larger pile of gold.
The Last Jedi was a case study in incompetence.
Goats could charge into a line of armored men, so long as they did it with their heads due to how they're structured
I'm sorry I mean I really appreciate the time you took to analyze the whole situation but what really bothers me is you missing a very obvious key point that has never been addressed:
There are Humans, Orcs and Elves fighting each other and nobody seems to even notice the Orcish army, why not simply wait for them to tear at each other's throats and then when all armies are at their weakest state simply move in for the kill?
The Orcs would have won the battle in less than 15 minutes.
That could be explained by saying Azog wanted to make sure he would be the one to kill Thorin, and letting the elves fight for long enough increases the risk of them killing Thorin. He was also a very proud orc, seeking to honour Sauron. Not very honourable in his eyes to take the leftovers.
@@Mithirael honorable enough that he doesn't want to take the leftovers yet dishonorable enough to raid a town that has nothing inside but defenseless women and children?
I sincerity doubt that his reason was because he wanted to be the one to "Kill Thorin" because neither Humans nor Elves would have killed Thorin even if they surrounded him, they would have most probably captured him so Azog didn't really need to worry about that specific part
@@GamingSpoiler I am not very well practiced when it comes to LOTR lore, But I'm sure your idea of honourable and an orcs idea of honourable are two VERY different things.
@@baconfish1016 you may not be but I am, Orcs have no honor, the Orcs have attempted to invade the civilians in LOTR: The two towers while they were travelling to Helms Deep because Saruman told them that the humans will be "Slow because they're escorting women and children" the Uruk-hai
had no problem invading a village murdering women and children alike and during the siege of Minas Tirith they were on their way to murder the women and children hiding inside the keep walls.
The Orcs are mindless minions who answer to Sauron, the Uruk-hai
are savage beasts who swore their loyalty to Saruman, that speaks for itself: honor is not a trait they have.
@@GamingSpoiler Okay... You just added nothing new to the conversation congratulations! Honor is subjective, Meaning what an orc would consider to be "honourable" you may not. Especially considering the culture of the orcs and/or the uruk-hai, Slaughtering a village of innocents would be praised. Which leads to the question of do they actually believe in honor? No matter how sick or twisted their version of "honor" is.
12:53 Azog's flag-thing seemed clearly visible to the troops; different positions would mean different commands and he just needed to blow the horn once whenever he changed it rather than expecting them to count blasts etc, and he gets a much better view of the battle than if he was in the thick of the fighting. I actually really like this idea and think it could work. The only reason it makes no sense here is that Azog already had his commanding view of the dwarves and elves fighting each other when he ordered his orcs to attack.
The positioning of landmarks/ armies seemed inconsistent, but if the elves/humans/dwarves were using terrain to make a phalanx Azog couldn't outflank that was supported by elven archers, they would be very difficult to kill in a head-on charge. Azog attacks the city then the humans break rank to protect their families. The elves can now fight with their flanks exposed since the humans are gone, allowing Azog to utilize his greater numbers, or follow the humans. Keep in mind that the elves have been trading with the humans for years and would feel some duty to protect their allies, whereas they hate dwarves and don't care if they die.
"and he gets a much better view of the battle than if he was in the thick of the fighting"
This is actually how Władysław II Jagiełło, the king of Poland in XIV-XV century, commanded his army during the battle of Grunwald in 1410. Rather than charging alongside his knights, he stayed on a hill nearby, getting a better view of the battle.
So... flag sephamore with a horn to draw attention to flag changes
The phalanx won't even hold, they have armored trolls that can charge plus having trolls with catapults strapped to their backs? Those rocks are going to break that defence.
And why didnt Azog just wait with his attack until the elves and dwarfs killed each other?
But the humans here are not actually an army. It is just a small group of peasant.
Azog is a cartoon villain who wants to exterminate people. He doesn't care about the women and children not being a threat.
I'm not defending the Hobbit at all, but that's like saying "Scooby Doo villains aren't logical".
Ben From Gulf City It's a matter of making sense and doing things in order. The people who aren't a threat can wait to be exterminated, instead of doing that right now he could have flanked/ cut off/ surrounded the armies that can stop him, and eradicated them first with less risk. If he just wants to kill and had no higher rationality, he'd just send the entire force against one or every enemy all at once, depending. He wouldn't care that the armies are occupied and have some strategic reserve specifically for attacking the city. He didn't, so it makes no sense.
11:03 they have the power of GOD and ANIME on their side!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
Shut up, I had a stroke reading that
@@petyrbaelish8662 it’s just a joke bro
Battle of the Five Armies looks like Total war Warhammer played by noobs and without unit diversity
Actually there was a lot more unit diversity compared to Battle of Helm's Deep when it comes to the orcs.
Battle of Helm's Deep:
Army of Isengard:
Uruk'hai infantry
Uruk'hai archers
Battle of Five Armies:
Army of Dol'Guldur:
Orc infantry
Orc archers
Unarmored and armored trolls
Catapult trolls
Army of Gundabad:
Goblin mercenaries
Orc infantry
War bats
@@taavidude Yes, but I was comparing it to videogame, because it, unlike Helm's Deep, looks like one. Both graphically (CGI only battles just look terrible) and tactically. Unit diversity is better than in LoTR, but most of non infantry units don't really make sense (and it still doesn't have more units than Pellenor fields)
@@9_r4p4ck8 What video game? If you are talking about TW: Warhammer, I don't really give a shit about Warhammer.
taavidude
Army of isengard:
Uruk'hai with pikes
Uruk'hai with sword and shield
Uruk'hai with crossbow
Ballista
Berserkers (the unarmored ones with two handed swords)
@@PoorManatee6197 Well if we were to go that detailed:
Army of Dol'Guldur:
Pikemen
Swordsmen
Spearmen
Axemen
Sickle-Men
Ogre Warrior and Battering Ram
Ogre Catapult Carriers and Ogre-Riders
Troll Catapult Carriers and Troll Riders
Warg Riders
Gundabad Wargs
Goblin Mercenaries
Torch-carriers
Were-worms
Olog Hai Warriors
Giant Gundabad Trolls
Amputated Trolls
Army of Gundabad:
Pikemen
Swordsmen
Spearmen
Axemen
Sickle-Men
Orc Berserker
War Bats
Yep, Azog could indeed see that far, since orcs are an offshoot race of elves, created by Morgoth, the "Satan" of the LOTR mythology.
orcs are also supposed to be greatly affected by sunlight when it comes to their eye sight and he would be squinting and wouldn't see a thing past a couple hundred meters
@@matthiuskoenig3378 they are supposed to be affected by sunlight to such an extent as to make them incapable of withstanding it. That's partly the reason why the Uruk-hai were made, as they had no issues with the sun.
Apart from Morgoth is really real in Tolkien's mythology, Where as Satan is a belief and its not agreed upon whether or not they are bastardised versions of Elves, since the Uruk-hai come out of the ground
@@amandafranks5108 There is a lot not 100% agreed uponm in Tolkiens works because much of his vast worldbuilding is found in notes on stories never told, many of which are contradicting as Tolkien himself never settled in any one idea. For instance in Arda there is a sort of "Ragnarok" prophecy which foretells that Morgoth and his followers will return from the prison he was cast into and descend upon the world once more in one final epic battle, however no one version exists as Tolkien never really finalised it, instead we have several draft versions and references to the prophecy in other bits of his work, for instance the prophecy foretold that Melkor would be slain by Turin Turambar, yet another version tells of Eonwe being the one to kill Melkor. Because of this a lot is open to debate, however the general consensus on the orcs is that Melkor created them through twisting elves, much like how he made trolls by twisting ents. Additionally it appears that after their initial creation they could be "spawned" in large numbers rather easily, though again, this is all stuff we largely have to speculate on, since the only 100% canon sources for Tolkien's world is the LOTR books and the Hobbit, even if we have a vast amount of his notes.
If you want to go on the lore, Azog shouldn’t even be in this battle. I don’t see the issue with having Bolg as the commander with the blood feud with Dain/Thorin for slaying Azog and the Orc and Goblin wars. And yes, the orcs and goblins cannot stand sunlight, so perhaps it was especially cloudy?
Uruk hai are not simply bred from the ground, they are the spawn of orks and goblin men or something to that effect, they are hybrids that possess traits making them much more effective. Orcs are technically also bred from pits in the ground as well.
10:30 “Perhaps we could use the doorway to our advantage? It’ll make for a fine choke point.” -some dwarf
“We will not hide away behind some meager walls for protection. We dwarves are as strong as we are proud. We will fight them out in the open because we are brave manly men.” -same dwarf
11:20 “Perhaps we could use the dwarves to our advantage? They have already set up their formation and we can maneuver accordingly.” -some elf
“We will not hide behind some meager dwarves for protection. We elves are as strong as we are proud. We will jump over their puny bodies and show them we are the real brave manly men.” -same elf
15:04 Orc Boiz military doctrine dictates that entertainment and food should be procured whenever possible. This is obviously a strategic move *sarcasm* lol
Well I mean... The Elves of Mirkwood don't get along with ANYONE. Lol
You frequently put text on the screen which your viewers can only read by pausing the video (since we have to listen to you at the same time AND because the text disappears too quickly). This decreases the joy of watching the video and I must therefore give a thumbs down. It doesn't mean I don't like your analysis.
Snowflake and his whole army could have just chilled in the back while those sky-scraper sized worms just rolled on the elven and dwarven armies.
Or just wait for the dwarves and the elves to kill each other and then destroy the survivors and take the mountain
My thoughts exactly. Hell they could probably just tunnel & collapse any standing structures above ground. How the hell would armies be able to combat that? Ugh, where did the worms go anyway?
@@sean-michaelconroy7686 The worms had to go back to Arrakis.
Robby McPack yeah, that was only in the extended edition though and in the book, they weren't killing each other...
Nydus worms lol
I agree with most of what you said. I disagree on your thought that the orcs would not and should not attack the city. I believe it was an attempt to draw defenders away from the main fight by attacking the women and children within the city. This would thin the dwarf/elf/human army's ranks making breaking through and enveloping them more easy. Then they could easily defeat whatever contingent was sent to hold off the orcs in Dale by attacking them in the rear across the bridge. This also explains why they didn't use the bridge in their initial attack. Also, attacking women and children is a very orcish thing to do.
Plus it would without a doubt be detrimental for human/elf morale, knowing that the women and children are dead.
plus food for the army, they would cook and eat them
That’s exactly what I was thinking when he was talking about that
Also, i forgot to mention that you should always keep in mind about what "people" or culture you are talking when analyzing tactics or sometimes really dumb shit they are doing. for example the very wastefull usage of trolls to break walls: sure they are wastefull, and its not clever and inefficient. but you are talking about goblins/ orcs. they dont care about trolls, they are nothing but tools for them. so i think its absolutely in character and plausible
I was thinking the same as he was talking about the dwarven artillery. Yes, it is hard to believe but given the fantasy background of dwarfs it is just normal for them.
Or the elves jumping over the dwarven line. Yes, it is stupid and everybody knows that. Does it fit the setting? Yes. In general this whole review is kinda pointless. But not as pointless as the trilogy.
Zeshi I agree on the orcs, but the elves jumping over just seemed idiotic. This is supposed to be the wisest race in Middle Earth but they’re going to foil their own formation right before the battle starts? What would be more elvish would be to plug gaps or flanks and fire volleys of arrows incessantly, weakening the orcs without even actually having to fight them.
@@thinkwithurdipstick the elves are arrogant and narcissistic they wanted the glory. Plus the thin dwarven phalanx couldn't have survived the charge it would have shattered on impact with the orc line, so the elves jumping over kind of spared the dwarves that fate.
Alfie Smith is that the case, or did PJ just want a cool action scene to relieve the needless tension of if the elves would help or not. The elves are arrogant, but they aren’t stupid. They basically screw themselves by becoming trapped between the phalanx and the orc horde. And the dwarven phalanx shatter from the impact of the charge? These are dwarves, the hardiest race in Middle Earth. They would not have shattered.
thinkwithurdipstick it is at most two ranks deep I could believe that it would shatter
20:42 Thranduil later said "enough blood lost for this land" so he could want to escape again like with Smaug.
In other words book tactics are so much superior :). Description of Battle of Five Armies from book The Hobbit:
"Suddenly without a signal they sprang silently forward to attack. Bows twanged and arrows whistled; battle was about to be joined.
Still more suddenly a darkness came on with dreadful swiftness! A black cloud hurried over the
sky. Winter thunder on a wild wind rolled roaring up and rumbled in the Mountain, and lightning lit its peak. And beneath the thunder another blackness could be seen whirling forward; but it did not come with the wind, it came from the North, like a vast cloud of birds, so dense that no light could be seen between their wings.
“Halt!” cried Gandalf, who appeared suddenly, and stood alone, with arms uplifted, between the advancing dwarves and the ranks awaiting them. “Halt!” he called in a voice like thunder, and his staff blazed forth with a flash like the lightning. “Dread has come upon you all! Alas! it has come more swiftly than I guessed. The Goblins are upon you! Bolg- of the North is coming, O Dain! whose father you slew in Moria. Behold! the bats are above his army like a sea of locusts. They ride upon wolves and Wargs are in their train!”
Amazement and confusion fell upon them all. Even as Gandalf had been speaking the darkness grew. The dwarves halted and gazed at the sky. The elves cried out with many voices.
“Come!” called Gandalf. “There is yet time for council. Let Dain son of Nain come swiftly to us!”
So began a battle that none had expected; and it was called the Battle of Five Armies, and it was very terrible. Upon one side were the Goblins and the Wild Wolves, and upon the other were Elves and Men and Dwarves. This is how it fell out. Ever since the fall of the Great Goblin of the Misty Mountains the hatred of their race for the dwarves had been rekindled to fury. Messengers had passed to and fro between all their cities, colonies and strongholds; for they resolved now to win the dominion of the North. Tidings they had gathered in secret ways; and in all the mountains there was a forging and an arming. Then they marched and gathered by hill and valley, going ever by tunnel or under dark, until around and beneath the great mountain Gundabad of the North, where was their capital, a vast host was assembled ready to sweep down in time of storm unawares upon the South. Then they learned of the death of Smaug, and joy was in their hearts; and they hastened night after night through the mountains, and came thus at last on a sudden from the North hard on the heels of Dain. Not even the ravens knew of their coming until they came out in the broken lands which divided the Lonely Mountain from the hills behind. How much Gandalf knew cannot be said, but it is plain that he had not expected this sudden assault.
This is the plan that he made in council with the Elven-king and with Bard; and with Dain, for the dwarf-lord now joined them: the Goblins were the foes of all, and at their coming all other quarrels were forgotten. Their only hope was to lure the goblins into the valley between the arms of the Mountain; and themselves to man the great spurs that struck south and east. Yet this would be perilous, if the goblins were in sufficient numbers to overrun the Mountain itself, and so attack them also from behind and above; but there was no time to make any other plan, or to summon any help.
Soon the thunder passed, rolling away to the South-East; but the bat-cloud came, flying lower, over the shoulder of the Mountain, and whirled above them shutting out the light and filling them with dread.
“To the Mountain!” called Bard. “To the Mountain! Let us take our places while there is yet time!”
On the Southern spur, in its lower slopes and in the rocks at its feet, the Elves were set; on the
Eastern spur were men and dwarves. But Bard and some of the nimblest of men and elves climbed to the height of the Eastern shoulder to gain a view to the North. Soon they could see the lands before the Mountain’s feet black with a hurrying multitude. Ere long the vanguard swirled round the spur’s end and came rushing into Dale. These were the swiftest wolf-riders, and already their cries and howls rent the air afar. A few brave men were strung before them to make a feint of resistance, and many there fell before the rest drew back and fled to either side. As Gandalf had hoped, the goblin army had gathered behind the resisted vanguard, and poured now in rage into the valley, driving wildly up between the arms of the Mountain, seeking for the foe. Their banners were countless, black and red, and they came on like a tide in fury and disorder.
It was a terrible battle. The most dreadful of all Bilbo’s experiences, and the one which at the time he hated most - which is to say it was the one he was most proud of, and most fond of recalling long afterwards, although he was quite unimportant in it. Actually I may say he put on his ring early in the business, and vanished from sight, if not from all danger. A magic ring of that sort is not a complete protection in a goblin charge, nor does it stop flying arrows and wild spears; but it does help in getting out of the way, and it prevents your head from being specially chosen for a sweeping stroke by a goblin swordsman.
The elves were the first to charge. Their hatred for the goblins is cold and bitter. Their spears and swords shone in the gloom with a gleam of chill flame, so deadly was the wrath of the hands that held them. As soon as the host of their enemies was dense in the valley, they sent against it a shower of arrows, and each flickered as it fled as if with stinging fire. Behind the arrows a thousand of their spearmen leapt down and charged. The yells were deafening. The rocks were stained black with goblin blood.
Just as the goblins were recovering from the onslaught and the elf-charge was halted, there rose from across the valley a deep-throated roar. With cries of “Moria!” and “Dain, Dain!” the dwarves of the Iron Hills plunged in, wielding their mattocks, upon the other side; and beside them came the men of the Lake with long swords.
Panic came upon the Goblins; and even as they turned to meet this new attack, the elves charged again with renewed numbers. Already many of the goblins were flying back down the river to escape from the trap; and many of their own wolves were turning upon them and rending the dead and the wounded. Victory seemed at hand, when a cry rang out on the heights above.
Goblins had scaled the Mountain from the other side and already many were on the slopes above the Gate, and others were streaming down recklessly, heedless of those that fell screaming from cliff and precipice, to attack the spurs from above. Each of these could be reached by paths that ran down from the main mass of the Mountain in the centre; and the defenders had too few to bar the way for long. Victory now vanished from hope. They had only stemmed the first onslaught of the black tide.
Day drew on. The goblins gathered again in the valley. There a host of Wargs came ravening and with them came the bodyguard of Bolg, goblins of huge size with scimitars of steel. Soon actual darkness was coming into a stormy sky; while still the great bats swirled about the heads and ears of elves and men, or fastened vampire-like on the stricken. Now Bard was fighting to defend the Eastern spur, and yet giving slowly back; and the elf-lords were at bay about their king upon the southern arm, near to the watch-post on Ravenhill."
That would be a fantastic battle on screen. It also is absolutely nothing like what was actually on the movie, which is pretty disappointing
I didn't knew you could write so many characters in RUclips
I heard that the reason for the Dwarves choosing the inferior armor was because the plate armor that they found inside the mountain was poorly made for movement because of the movies rushed productions. So the movie makers scraped them and shot the battle scenes with their regular quest armor.
Yeah its in the dvd extras. It also sort of works out better as its kinda symbolic at that moment in teh film. They are shedding the weight of what they lost, accepting themsleves for what they became in exile. So despite being a bad idea militarily, it works thematically
Should have demanded more time, I would have been happy to wait an extra year for them to actually make a great movie, rather than an average one.
It could also be so that you could tell who they were. Would you be able to identify Bofur without the silly hat? It’s quite a shame as with 9 hours of run time, you don’t really get to know the dwarves of the company that much. All you get is their odd design choices to distinguish them (axe for Bifur, the odd hat for Bofur, Bombur was fat in the book so that doesn’t really count, the hearing horn for Oin). And why don’t Thorin, ori, kili or fili have a beard, like a real dwarven beard. The dwarves in the LotR looked like dwarves, these not so much. Even the youngest of these was over 50, and thorin should be older than Balin. Been bugging me for years.
But back to the armor, it still wouldn’t make sense. Dwarves are renowned for their heavy armor, and who would wear a fur cap when you have a helmet at hand. They were even a race known for making light durable armors, mithril being the key example but there are others. I would have demanded more time as well. PJ spent years on the LotR and put all the love and care it deserved into making a great film, the Hobbit trilogy seemed thin, like butter spread over too much bread.
@@thinkwithurdipstick Love your comment just for the last sentence
thinkwithurdipstick
You could even wear the hat over the helmet
Yeah the barrel scene was so dumb but I enjoyed it quite a lot.
I think it was HILARIOUS...
Hated the barrel scene because it shattered any tension in the movie. The dwarves are indestructible rubber dummies....
Also, maybe I don’t have a sense of humor
Yup. I watched the movie to be entertained and that's what I got. I didn't watch it to learn medieval battle strategies
dwarves.. lol
Bombur was wildin out frfr
Good analysis: From the last shot you can also see that they've drastically changed the amount of dwarfes. It's a small line of defense before Thorin storms out. It's a massive army again once he does. Same with the humans: It's literally 150 lightly armored soldiers holding a city against a good 1000 orks.
The problem with a military analysis of the Hobbit movies lies within the discrepancies of the depiction. The orcs participating in this battle were originally meant to be less structured and less intimidating riding on wolves. Then the armies of men, elves and dwarves were meant to work together to get rid of this threat, that is only a threat because they were previously fighting among each other. The movie, however, strengthens the point, in which the armies do not act together resulting in a barrage of irrational decisions by their leaders. Then the threat of the orcs is strengthened as well by giving them intimidating, well-equipped and disciplined orcs and a leader that isn't incompetent. The end result is a battle far less believable, since the good guys still have to win, while their depiction was nerfed and that of the orcs buffed.
Have you watched the lord of the rings , a wizard made ring to keep a never ending battle , so the hobbit had to get rid of the ring to make a victory
@@diaphouswilter7364 I'm sorry, but I don't understand the point you want to make. ^^" You just described the plot of the LotR. But why?
@@JoniWan77 the makers of the film had a budget limit so there's always limitations to what they can do , the dwarves reload after each attack by each ballista attack which each dwarf hold ammo after each fire , the dwarves in the front go back and the one's with the ammo move up. The battle was epic. I see hateful people always dehumanizing films cause they think they can do a better job with budget limitations , elves are mythology creatures , there are many versions of elves , one move quickly in the forest , the second version , they move quickly cause they made them up seriously. Mythology creature are over powered , exaggerated , just hateful people post what's bad about films.
It doesn't help either that half the shots weren't ready for the release of the film, so they had to do their best with what they had at that point. This leads to a "complete" battle scene in the extended edition, where some of the equipment and units seem to appear on the battlefield briefly and then disappear altogether.
One example is the ballistae, which the dwarves apparently only brought 2 shots for all the way from the Iron Hills. Other one is the rams, which make one charge against the elves and disappear in the extended edition, where as in the theatrical edition there is no charge nor ram cavalry. Nevertheless one or a couple rams just appear out of thin air for the main characters in both versions, when they need to scale the mountain to get to Azog.
One thing to consider is the The Hobbit and LOTR arent trying to make the humans, dwarves, orcs, and elves use realistic tactics, rather, the tactics are employed in order to demonstrate their unique qualities. The men fight as they have in all of the movies, against impossible odds they fight for their lives. The dwarves employ a phalanx to show their unbreaking resolve, and rams as a visual representation of their hard headedness. The orcs blatant disregard for small unit tactics (opting instead to beat down their opponents from the front) and disregard for their own troops (like at helms deep or throwing away trolls to break down walls) demonstrates their brutishness and disregard for life. The elves fight like a river, their battle style is characterized by fluidity, beauty, and grace, this need not be explained.
Also withdrawing to Mirkwood was likely the right call. The fighting style of the elves works best in concealed terrain where they can attack and withdraw, fighting on an open field is not what where the elves excel.
"The fighting style of the elves works best in concealed terrain where they can attack and withdraw, fighting on an open field is not what where the elves excel."
Care to explain that? In the lore the elves are faster and stronger than the other races (their best capable of fighting the gods themselves). They would also be fighting in the sunlight (something the orcs were loathe to do). Honestly, the elves excel in most forms of combat minus, perhaps, in the caverns where the dwarves and orcs usually fought. They fought plenty of pitched battles in the First and Second Age without a problem.
@@darkwing_don2391 I didnt say they were bad fighters in pitched combat, but they are quick and unparalled archers, meaning they work best as skirmishers. Skirmishers work best when they dont need to worry about cavalry. They are good with a blade as well, but generally against superior numbers it is best to try to conserve your troops as much as you can.
@@Zealot2024 I understand you weren't saying they were bad in combat. Perhaps my comment wasn't well written. Simply, the elves in LotR are unparalleled at just about everything, so their "fighting style," as you put it, is basically just "be better and win at all times," lol. You'd be hard pressed to find a situation where they don't excel. Skirmish in Mirkwood or duke it out by Dale? Honestly they would do either fine, so I don't think the decision to retreat to Mirkwood would be due to a fighting style preference. It'd be based on the decision of can we win now, or do we have a better chance if we re-group?
@@darkwing_don2391 They are excellent fighters, but the sheer number of orcs is too much for the elves, and they can't replace them quickly, so it makes more sense to try and conserve troops. Take for instance the elven contingent at Helms Deep, they killed hundreds of orcs, but against superior numbers, while they may take the field, their losses are not easily replaced, so in a war, it makes more sense for the long game to fight where you can kill off a company of orcs, withdraw without taking casualties, and repeat.
@@Zealot2024 Yeah that's perfectly valid. The downside of retreating to Mirkwood is where do you retreat to from there? As the distance closes it becomes much harder to fight a guerrilla war.
Love this line "but apparently, everyone just wants to charge into battle" 😂😂😂
The thing about helms deep is that there was 10,000 orks vs 300 men plus a few elves so the sacrifice of 200 or so orks to take out roughly the same amount of human/elf troops was completely justified but yeah the orks did seem unorganized.
@Wraithic Artistry orks for simplicity
@@creeperboom8635 if those were Orks, not Orcs or Urak-Hai, they would have undone the puny humie fortifications with alot more savagery
@@creeperboom8635 "This is no rabble of mindless orcs. These are Uruk-hai. Their armor is thick and their shields broad." I agree though, they were expendable.
500 elves if i remember
Not to mention that orcs and even the far better uruk-hai are all supposed to be incredibly disposable and easily replaceable so it makes sense their leaders don't care about their lives. Plus they didn't really have a leader, Saruman just kinda said go kill them so it makes sense they're unorganized.
Even at that, they were doing all they could to take the fortress. They were at the gate and were climbing the walls so there wasn't really anything else they could do. Plus you can say that they needed to distract the Elves on the wall so they wouldn't shoot down the torch bearer.
"Azog is a moron" lmao, this was a great line with perfect delivery.
The first two things I can question in your evaluation is: You question the ability of the dwarves reloading ballistae faster then the elves can reload an arrow. That may be true if the Ballistae is not a repeating one. A repeating Ballistae or Polybolos did in fact exist in Ancient Greece and in the Roman army, although they may have been smaller then whats portrayed in the Battle of Five armies. But, since it did in fact exist, it is possible it could be built on a larger scale. As for the Dwarven Rams, not sheep, I would conclude they are much like sheep today that stand 5-6 feet tall. The fictional Rams would be similar in ability but larger. Actual rams crash into each others heavy bone structure at a force of 800lbs with no lasting damage due to the shock absorbing nature of the bone structure. Therefore, it is feasible that a larger ram could crash into ranks of elfs and survive. Based on most fantasy, Elves wear lighter armor then say a human or a dwarf.
In the book, the orc commanders are actually on the Ground.
I feel like some of the egalitarian critiques are unfounded. At this point in the film, Laketown has been burnt down with a large portion of the militarized guards killed in the fighting. Very simply the Laketown Forces lack significant amounts of trained manpower, and they have taken up defensive positions at the city. Laketown needs bodies to block the streets, not a disciplined militia. They are relying on the elves for any battle winning maneuvers, their sole goal is just to survive, and Bard made the decision that it was better to use excess weapons to arm the women than to just let them cry in the rear of the force as their thin shieldewalls broke.
As for the elves, while it is confusing with the appearance of female elves in the army, there is a pretty well maintained trade route from Mirkwood to Laketown, which would mean size would matter less, and since birth rate seems to be low amount elves it is probable that females, although still weaker physically, play larger roles in order to maintain enough males to repopulate in case of a rout. With criticisms on why the LOTR movies show no females, very briefly:
Rohan had a time limit, a supply limit, and a equipment limit, only the strongest and most experienced soldiers marched to aid Minas Tirith. In the case of Helms Deep, the situation seemed hopeless and thus they tried to evacuate the women through the caves, explaining the lack of them on the walls, and even then, Eowyn still fights in the battle as the caves come under attack.
Gondor is lead by a broken man without proper mobilization or proper defensive measures taken. Furthermore, it has a professional army, and lacks the equipment to supply an effective militia or the belief they would have too
The Lorien troops at helms deep are (I believe) 200 strong, and thus are likely a specialized detachment of scouts rather than an entire army, further support by the fact haldir (a border guard commander) leads them rather than a more senior leader.
It could also be that their culture is simply egalitarian.
Also about the elves. As far as I know, men and women in elves are very similar. And even if they had they had the same dimorphism as humans, a elven women would still wastly superior in battle to dwarves or orcs.
But see, in all books elven women rarely participate in the fighting. Which is probably related to their low birthrates, and the fact that they take more active roles in civil administration (especially when the males leave to war). So no reason for female fighters in their race.
Same with the humans: Gondor and Rogan had professional armies and well trained militias (Gondor had the best equipment). This were of course male due to the physical differences between sexes, the need to protect the females (as they're more important to recuperate losses in population) and the fact that once the men are mobilised, they take the civilan roles left by the men. Eowyn was supposed to lead the Rohirrim due to Theoden and Eomer leaving, but since the situation seemed hopeless she took the decision to die with her kin. There's a reason why so few civilisations (especially in medieval times/technological development) had women in their armies.
In the case of the Laketown's folk it's even more stupid: to take and offensive task force (Bard's company) of untrained peasants is risky enough. Arming the women in the last stand defense inside the city is completely understandable, but not taking them for the offensive against thorin
@@1207rorupar remember that they didnt expect to be fighting anyone really, they just wanted $$. No reason to expect more dwarves and orcs to arrive
@@1207rorupar I gotta assert here though, the humans and elves (especially the humans) didn't go to meet Thorin for the sake of fighting him though, they went to try to negotiate payments for the rebuilding of their city. They never really knew about the dwarf army or the orc armies at all so when the fighting started, they were caught unprepared. It's funny how we watch the movies and think these people are so stupid just because we have a God's eye view of things but fail to realize that we'd be like them too because they didn't get the intel they needed in time to prepare for the battles. lol
The Difference between a well written Book and a Movie that over does it's Special Effects. Some people actually get away with going against Rediculous odds, for instance, Crazy Horse took unbelievable risks and got away with them untouched by the Thousands of bullets shot at him. Maybe the Calvary Troops of the 1870s were drunk and incredibly bad shots, it's still hard to explain. While this is Fantasy, the battles in the Lord of the Rings were written to be realistic by someone who had seen battle in the First World War and had survived to tell about it. The barrel scene in the Book was far more subdued and more realistic than in this Movie. The First Movie's were reasonably close to the Book, this could have been done so much better by following the Book more closely! Fantasy Requires suspension of Belief, but you can only suspend so much. Enjoyed your video!
If you read Tolkien's essay On Fairy Stories he argues that fantasy should not require suspension of disbelief. I think I heard Brandon Sanderson say a similar thing. Sometimes fantasy requires a firmer basis in our sense of reality than real events do. For this reason you have a point. For some reason I'm taking the time to quibble about your wording.
@@iivin4233 In Science Fiction your allowed just two or three things we don't have, warp drive, transaction, telepaths, but Fantasy has Dragons, Witch's, Magic Swords and all kinds of Creatures that don't exist in reality, if you're not willing to believe in these things, what good is Fantasy? They often aren't realistic in Fantasy or Science Fiction, we have powerful Lasers, if you get hit by one, you don't neatly disappear. The Laser not only burns a hole through you, it superheats the water in your body and explodes you, a very messy way to die. The kind of fighting shown in the Lord of the Rings Movies, is far messier in reality than in the Movies! The ground would be covered with blood and hacked off body parts, these people barely get their weapons dirty. Not to mention their clothes and armor should be covered with blood and gore. Movies show a reality that leaves out many of the unpleasant things that are a part of that reality. Maybe I should have said a suspension of Reality instead of Belief. But it's much the same thing. While reading or watching a Science Fiction or Fantasy, you're in a alternative Reality and have to accept it's rules and creatures as Real to enjoy either.
someone hasn't played D&D light armour + high dex = awesome
throw in some dwarven defender feats, armoured mastery and dexterity and hes runnin around in leather with like no max dex issues
oorah
dwarves and dexterity though...
they're actually as dexterous as humans +2 con -2 cha standard mountain and hill dwarves and hes a royalty dwarf so hes probably even more epic beard
@@OrkarIsberEstar Dwarves are actually as or even more dexterous as humans showed by the skill they make things with.
Don't forget too wear plot armor
@@lilconch in Lotr its said that Dwarves arent as dextrous as humans who arent as dextrous as elfs. onstitutionwise things are turned around. To my knowledge dwarfs are the least dextrous humanoid race
Your Imperial Majesty your Analysis of the battle is very well done .
Weren't the men of Dale including women in their force simply because their numbers were too low, and they had to bolster them? That's happened in history before.
@Jaygon! Citation?
In the novel they had a functioning army though, at least of levy standards if not higher. This was a deliberate change made by Jackson. Later in the movie, after the initial fight, there is a scene where the women take up arms to fight alongside the men and it’s made out to be a major moment, but I was left thinking “weren’t they already fighting?” That’s the moment I knew it was just shallow and clichéd. And is there a scene where children are fighting, other than Bard’s kids? Don’t remember seeing that.
@@thinkwithurdipstick I guess that's a fair point. To me, this actually seems more appropriate for what basically boils down to a thrown-together militia. Lake Town was not a very wealthy settlement, it was very much a shadow of Dale's former glory. I am guessing that Jackson's change was trying to reflect that and make them more underdogs, not to mention showing women and children at risk when the goblins attack Dale proper gives the battle a sort of higher stake, not that it needs it. I feel like that was the impetus behind the change, not some SJW agenda. But that's just my opinion.
@@orksy2935 Battle of Stalingrad? French resistance against the Nazi occupation in the 40s? And before the US dropped the atomic bombs on Japan, Japan itself was preparing the way for what it assumed would be a full-on land invasion, and they planned to fight to the last man, woman, and child. Even school girls were given weapons training and were being trained to fight. But that ended up not coming to pass, as we all know. Those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.
@@jaygon8656 Yes I know of those, I was wondering more about LOTR era events, say between late medieval to earlier that are confirmed and not embellished myth/legend. I only recall mention of one from Scandinavia I think, where the occupants (mostly women and non-combatant men) of a fortification armed themselves with anything they could to defend themselves in a battle they were losing.
I like how you applied the tactics of quiet vocals and deafeningly loud movie clips to effectively assault my ears.
I will give you a positive comment amidst this tidal wave of negativity. This is the first video of your's I have watched, and being someone who enjoys military tactics and strategies, I found it quite interesting. I do agree with some of the commenters about the Men going to protect their women and children, though if the Orcs succeeded in massacring them, that would invoke greater deeds of derring-do from the Men than otherwise (this happens every day when a drunk at the bar tries to hit on your girlfriend). But still, jumping in front of the phalanx is dumb, not having the phalanx as a consistent line is dumb, the easy killability of Trolls (when the cave Troll in Fellowship took a fifteen-minute fight to down), and various things like that, as well as the fact that it was all CGI, does make it a rather bad movie in that sense, and I agree with you in every way I can think of now. Though I must admit, I get chills every time I see Thorin and the Dwarves charging the Orcs like that. Good spectacle: yes. Good tactics: no.
Anyways, I hope to watch more of your stuff later on. Cheers!
It's better for the elves to jump or the dwarves phalanx, if you'd seen their lines were too thin to cover the battlefield. Alongside that Azog has catapults mounted on the back of trolls, he could easily say "Bye bye Phalanx!". Also doing military tactics and such on fantasy movies that are supposedly made to look cool and such. Ppl like you shouldn't be butt hurt about it, I mean I do like military and tactics, but I don't get overly crazy about what they did wrong and such or what would've been better. Hollywood always does these, which is why if your a military/tactics person, you mind as well watch something else to your interests.
@@koreancowboy42 I see your point, but I think the true problem with jumping the phalanx is that, when the Dwarves later charged, the Elves are just as likely to get run over as the Orcs. I'd have had my Elves flesh out the phalanx and pour withering arrow fire into the Orcs.
I'm not actually butt hurt by this film. I think I'm one of a small percentage that actually liked the Hobbit Trilogy, but I will admit it doesn't hold a candle to the Lord of the Rings. I also understand that Hollywood cares more for spectacle than accuracy, but I think a compromise can be made with something that is still visually stunning but tactically sound (hordes of Orcs falling before the Elves' arrows would have been awesome, while the Dwarves chariots targeted the Trolls, that sort of thing). I'll forgive Hollywood sacrificing accuracy for spectacle, but only to a degree, and so I can forgive the Hobbit's goofs because the tale is still told: that of Bilbo Baggins going with the Thirteen Dwarves to Mount Erebor, a great clash of five armies that results in great loss, but victory for the forces of good, and Bilbo's quiet return home.
I also just found that KingEmperorPenguin just made sense in his analyses, and wished to compliment him on it.
Anyways, thanks for the comment.
@@timothyissler3815 some of his analysis is wrong somewhat, just the way he says just doesn't hit the spot of understanding. I only seen about like two analysis that are correct the others seems okish, but seems like a rant or complaint.
Hollywood will make realism towards modern movies, but not fantasy, medieval times and such.
@@koreancowboy42 I guess so. He may indeed be wrong, or maybe didn't word it right, and confused/offended people. I usually avoid videos that dish out hate on films, unless it is like this one and takes a subjective, logical, and restrained view of events. History Buffs is good for that. Reviews that say "it sucks because it sucks because people say it sucks" etc. are annoying and have no basis at all. Here he at least says "It fails in these points for these reasons" and is largely very polite about it and doesn't just yell "it sucks!" every 5-10 minutes. And being a fan of strategies and tactics myself, I figured a wholly tactical explanation (i.e. something a tabletop gamer might consider) would be something up my alley.
We are both of differing views on this subject, and I respect yours, but my view is that I think he largely hits the nail on the head. Maybe he missed a few times, but at least he makes more sense than any annoying hater ever could.
I love your review: here's why attacking the city was actually smart though:
1) the city seems to be a geographically useful position that could be used to anchor the armies of Orks attacking the flank. They only need the bridge, but the city is still somewhat useful in this sense.
Even then you answered your own concern: the women and children were there.....
That was something the allied armies Couldn't ignore..... They'd have to split their forces to cover them.... Which is what the attacking force wants.
They can then divide the defending army, and defeat each part easier, or even potentially "in detail"
Also why are orcs suddenly *7* feet tall?
maybe different breed of orcs? like uruk-hai orcs. im just guessing i dont know shit about middle-earth lore
@@nivek4321
Hmmmmm a plausible explanation.
Though It's too bad Saruman didn't know big orcs didn't work, maybe then he wouldn't have wasted all that time making Uruc-hai.
@Sir. Anthony
Hmmmmmm, I guess that could work.
Gundabad orcs are different from mordor orcs.
They're taller, paler and more heavily built as they come from Gundabad, which is an old dwarven stronghold far to the north where the misty mountains meets another mountain range.
So little sun plus harsher terrain and climate equals stronger orcs.
@Sir. Anthony Orcs themselves are Elves that have been twisted and corrupted by Sauron (Who also was an Elf). Saruman explains that in FotR (first movie) when talking to his Uruk-Hai Officer. The Uruk-Hai were Orcs (Or "Uruks") that have been (somehow) breed with Humans to be more resistant against daylight. (Disclaimer: all of this is lore from the movies and thus probably incorrect xD)
U could do this as a series
I would watch the shit out of that, these are so good
The Hobbit: battle of the 3 very small armies that was extremely disorganized with no strategic coordination whatsoever.
The army weren't unified to start, so how would they have been organized? It starts out with the dwarves ready to fight the elves until the orcs surprised them and they recognize the real threat so they fight together.
Also do your research or even watch the movie. Men from the Lake Town under Bard. Elves from Mirkwood under Thranduil. Dwarves from the Iron Hills under Dain. Orcs from Dol Guldur, under Azog.Orcs/goblins from Gundabad, under Bolg.
@@mrgibbs7710 a company of dwarves, a legion of elves, and an army (the only army) of orcs. Everything else didn't even scratch a formidable fighting force, and laketown was laughable. If you *did your research* you'd know that a group of peasants; not even light infantry; would survive an army mostly composed of orc heavy infantry. The orcs SHOULD have won that battle. There was more suspense and belief that the Rohirrim could actually lose with the battle of Helm's Deep. Why Sauron didn't send a Nazgûl to oversee an operation as important as this one is beyond me, because Azog has clearly proven himself incapable of catching the party of dwarves prior to the event. I also doubt Sauron would trust an entire army (almost two) in the hands of a single orc. Gothmog was a leading commander during the battle of Osgiliath and the battle of the Pelennor fields, but ultimately took orders directly from The witch king of Angmar. The wriaths were released from their slumber at Dol Guldur well before the battle, so why they weren't sent to intercept Azog and take command is beyond me. Unless it took Sauron 60 years to make them all neat lil black cloaks for their journey to the shire? I chalk it up to bad writing and the director having no idea what direction he was taking the movie in. Times change, and unfortunately he fell out of love with middle earth. LOTR was created with the idea that they couldn't possibly fit everything into 3 movies, so they'd stuff in as much as they could. But the Hobbit was created with an ambition to use 3D cameras, expensive equipment, and dedicate more screen time to big fight scenes than making the orcs scary, the dwarves individual personalities we care about, and a story grounded in middle earth instead of "lul let's have them fight orcs while rolling in barrels down a stream". I hate these movies.
@@rasplez9889 only needed to scroll down and read "I hate these movies" to know where you're coming from. if you hate these movies why bother wasting your time watching reviews on them?
@@mrgibbs7710 if you like these movies why bother watching anything else?
The elves dropping back to trap the cavalry is actually a real military strategy called the mousetrap (I believe) and was famously used by Alexander the Great to neutralize the Persian scythe chariots during the battle of Arbela, and like the sheep cav, they pretty much all died.
I forgot how badly this battle does “good guys need to seem to be losing then suddenly win due to heroism”. They’re destroying the orc armies then just arbitrarily start losing. Compare that to LOTR (e.g. Helm’s Deep, it’s going well until the wall breach, then numbers overwhelm the defenders, until the heroic charge and arrival of Gandalf and Éomer). It’s just bad filmmaking
Also you criticise the egalitarian nature of this battle. Surely if you were creating a peasant rabble, women would hardly be out of their depth? Sure they may be a bit weaker but they can still hold a pitchfork (or other random peasant weapons) and are no less skilled than the men?
Are you T-posing
You really deserve more subs for making these videos. I always enjoy watching them, and always tell my friends.
Thank you for sharing my videos sir.
I agree, OneHundred *INTENSIFY* PERCENT!!
I agree he deserve more subs, but he points out things that have huge counter arguments. Honestly 70% of what he says in the first 11:00 I could come up with arguments and I dont even consider myself tactically inclined. I mean shit, some of the stuff he points out the plot or common sense explains. I suppose when you watch the movie only looking to criticize, you blindly miss crucial counter arguments. Especially when you have no one to verbally disagree with you.
@@barebones7835 While I agree to an extent, no person trying to make argument in the history of mankind has ever tried to come up with counter arguments when they are trying to point out something they want people to notice. The role of this video is not to be a universal truth to fantasy combat tactics, but to entertain us with the mishaps.
Besides, teh fact that you donb't consider yourself tactically inclined might be the reason you can come up with arguments for it.
This is the fantasy genre involving the elements fantasy, most of the feats that are done by any other creature besides human are above normal. Dwarves weren't created with flesh in the beginning they made out of stone making them the ideal type to fight against dragons though their skin changed a long time ago there dependents still have harden bones. Elves as well have a supernatural power and that is being immensely graceful and super fast also can do magic. And the arcs are an abomination version of the elves that the first dark lord Morgoth created, by create is more like transform and or destroy and remake since no body beside Eru Illuvitar and a select few with his permission could create something into being. Tactics wise you are correct but if you have not done your research correctly do not attempt to dissect these create with human standards.
Man, this is a great video. I'd love to see more Military Analysis videos for other pieces of fiction
I personally think attacking the city wasn't really a bad idea. The humans at least would feel like they would need to protect their people and the elves might feel like helping since they seemed to be on at least friendly terms with them. This spreads out an already thin army and also makes it less likely for the elves and humans to fall back into the mountain. assuming the dwarf king can count he should be easily able to see that his men will be slaughtered and with just his fellow dwarves they still might not have enough men to hold the mountain by themselves. Allowing the elves and humans into the mountain will give him a better chance at protecting his gold and keeping his people alive. I also doubt the dwarves had enough time to stock enough supplies to hold the mountain and most likely the only supplies in the area was in that city.
Hello sir, I liked your video, but why do you keep the penguin in the screen? I understand using it at the start/end of the video for branding proposes, but leaving it there with the blue background is not optimal for the viewers to understand the images thst you are analyzing. I get that you may like to do like the penguin is you talking, but a standing image is not enyoable to watch. Don't get me wrong, not trying to hate, just giving my opinion. Keep up the good content!
RUclips standards... They will copyright even 0.1 Seconds of a full frame of their product.
Yes, keeping the armour on for the battle would have been a much better decision, and in the original, they did do this. Just that is real armour, and real metal, the actors couldn't act under the weight so the filmmakers made the decision to drop the armour and go without.
+ humans are not dwarves no matter how you play with the height and body shape on screen.
Joey Brandybuck I understand the filmmakers aspect of this, but I like to think of it as they know and understand that if they charge out that gate, it is essentially a suicide mission so they’d rather die unburdened than heavy and slow. Just a fun way of thinking of it.
Did they run out of CGI or something?
@@MrChubbiful Dude, the Actors weren’t already CGI so them magically becoming CGI characters would look really off especially with how CGI is in the trilogy
the point of attacking the city is to demoralize the opposition.
in human battles the goal is generally not the extermination of the opposition. but by killing noncombatants who are being protected by an army, you can rude the fighting strength of your opposition.
"why are you doing that and why is it working" cause the director is ignorant and cares more about spectacle than immersion.
If Azog had stated that the reason he wanted to attack the city was to demoralise the opposition, I would have to agree with you. However, he explicitly states that it is to open a second front but it doesn’t open a second front so his reasons are absurd. Even if Azog’s reason was to demoralise his foes, he should have known that the elves and dwarves (the only groups he would likely be able to see from his mountain) probably wouldn’t care that much. I would also argue those extra forces would be better employed on the battlefield rather than attacking some nearly-defenceless women and children in a ruined city.
@@kingemperorpenguin1 Actually yes it does. Attacking non-coms does split the defending army (open a second front). This also diverts the attention of elves. In that situation Azog is right. Attack the unarmed which causes the Army to split in two.An underhanded move? YES Good tactics. Hell yea.
@@timesthree5757 isnt that kind of assuming the dwarves/elves give a damn about them though? Hell, the dwarven army wouldnt even know about it.
@coldlizard 2 yea real battles are often like that when you scratch your head, "how in the hell did that work." The point is the Idea was good execution bad.
Have to also see it like this: the orcs are blood thirsty savages. The opportunity to kill ANYTHING (women and children included) excites the hell out of them. Demoralize the enemy and motivate your troops at the same time. The humans, who could have contributed to the battle on the field, were redirected to the city. No doubt there are more than a few strategic blunders but you have to remember that the orcs arnt simply after a military victory. Their goal is total destruction of all things “good”
Im interested to see you take a look at the tactics in some of the battles in Game of Thrones, if you are up for it.
Exactly and considering that fantasy movies shouldn't really be taken into just because of military tactics, movies like Tolkiens Lord of the Rings did have questionable tactics, but it still drove on to be a good fictional movie for me. Every movie I watched, I never carried how bad the tactics were as long as it looks good, I won't have no problems with it.
Love the video but
15:00 wouldn't attacking the city draw any reserves away from the battle to save the city(as it did), making the fight theoretically more easy
Also: who didn't the dwarves shoot the ballistae at Mr. Snowflake?
1. My Words
2. I dont think the range and accuracy is good enought even if they would have cared.
The Dwarves ballista seemed like a very specific tool against a very specific tactic. Good at one job with a pleasant bonus of softening the enemy line for a follow up charge.
@@mobiusblitz3470 the ballista is made for a specific attack, but its not like its a rare one, the elven armies have consistently shown that they excel at archery and its pretty unreasonable to label archery as "a very specific tactic" in this context.
7:43 Makes me wonder why no one notice when Azgul erected those signal flags as it's supposed to be highly visible
I dont know why so many people dislike the barrel scene sure the barrel doesnt seem to be obeying physics at all and also elven woods seems to be like fkin steel but its still a fun scene to watch in my opinion
1. It breaks the Suspension of disbelief
2. It makes the orks look like helpless sheep instead of a real threat.
But I can understand why this is in the movie, after all its a movie for kids, not like Lord of the rings
I really like the way you break down and analyze these great battle scenes. Great job!
Where you are wrong
-heavy cavalry has been able to frontally charge heavy infantry. It is a myth that they cannot do so. At magnesia Antiochus III’s galatian and Persian cataphracts shattered the Roman lines with even the triarii being routed. In addition Sassanid, Hunnic and Norman are recorded at dozens of times directly charging heavy infantry successfully.
-can’t really argue with jumping over the phalanx seeing how elves are supermen in these films just look at Legolas V olifaunt,
-Why wouldn’t the humans be egalitarian? In many instances throughout history militias, diasporas, and nomads must recruit women when outnumbered. Look at the siege of Sparta by Pyrus of Epirus or the battle of Petra by the Arab revolt.
-Azogs plan to attack the mountain is justified as he knows it will draw a portion of the allied army away from the front, thus making the battle easier to win (divide and conquer).
The effectiveness of heavy cavalry on a frontal charge is still debatable. We don't know *for sure* whether they can crush a prepared and disciplined infantry formation with force alone. There are still arguments in favour of the infantry's breaking before/right after the impact.
I think a rather detailed historical account that I've read somewhere tells of a disciplined cavalry force charging a disciplined infantry lines. At the end of the day, the cavalry won, but with massive casualties on both sides. The problem is, this happened not long before WW1, so they weren't heavy cavalry, and the infantry were also lightly equipped.
Of course, there's no doubt heavy cavalry was immensely powerful in ancient and medieval battles, but we don't know whether they can smash infantry lines with brute force.
Aure Entuluva at the battle of Magnesia the Seleucid cataphracts shattered 3 lines of Roman Heavy infantry (the romans has never fought armored shock cavalry before) this is proven in multiple sources as the Seleucids broke through the Roman lines and looted their camp. In later years the romans became more used to fighting cavalry and so at Carrhae the Parthian Cataphracts were repelled. Mind you this was not because the horse would have shattered its bones or been afraid to charge. It was because heavily disciplined heavy infantry were trained in anti-cavalry tactics. This was however the exception even among most professional heavy infantrymen.
also to mention these are not horses in the movie, so they know how to hit another animal(in that case Elves/humans) pretty hard.
@@ChevyChase301 I seem to have misread your argument. What I meant was that we don't know whether frontal cavalry charges broke disciplined infantry formation that held their ground with brute force, which is in line with what you said. Yes, cavalry *can* do a frontal charge against infantry without breaking their bones and the like, but their effectiveness is debatable.
The thing with attackingDale is that Azog shouldn't expect Bard to protect the city, due to the lack of stratigical value it had. He only went there in order to protect the women and children, wich is stupid as he should already have been there if he cared about their safety at all. So attacking the city was only a smart move by Azog because Bard and co. made even worse desicions. The thing with the human force being "egalitarian" is that they aren't an actual military force, they're a bunch of refugees (at least all of the women in the shot were) who are just fighting to survive.
couple things :Why are you bringing up the mob of humans ( which are not intergrated in the elven army but a seperate entity) consisting of survivors from laketown ) being egalitarian when IT IS A LITERAL MOB OF SURVIVORS SEEKING PROMISED COMPENSATION NOT AN ORGANIZED ARMY.
the second volley confirms that the dwarves are either 1: alternating shots between 2 batteries of ballistae or 2: are able to reload them fast enough. however the ballistae probably have limited ammo, therefore by having the elven archers switch to melee the dwarven engineers are taken out of the battle by virtue of not being able to abbandon their machines which will need crew in case the elves decide on another volley. however continued volleys of arrows woul only lead to more ELVEN casualties.
A lot would have happened off screen, so I agree
And look ad this, just not fire in voley whoooo problem solved
@@sranrajalic9692 So your sollution is , make the archers less effective than they would be if they went to work as infantry. genius
gerbenvanessen perhaps have them alternate in half volleys where half shoot then the next shoots before the ballistae can be reloaded? These are elves, they’re expert bowmen. Even with two batteries the elves could reload bows faster than dwarves can reload large siege weapons. Or even give them the order to fire at will, picking their own targets. Again, expert marksmen.
@@gerbenvanessen hahha no, just dont shoot in voley so idea is that there ia constant fire insted of one voley. Balistats can reload in lets say 15sec (in this shit film) so they can cut streem every 15 sec and that is it
Your video helped me see the movie series in a new light! It also helped to understand the minds of the people who made the Hobbit of why they made the choices that they did. For example, when the elves leaped over the dwarves instead of lining up along side them, it was clear that reality wasn't important in that moment, it was the way that action would impact on the audience. Otherwise, it would look like a football game.
my friend they are not sheep but goats. They are built to literaly smash their heads into one another as a contest. They could easily withstand smashing through the enemy lines if we are considering the force of impacts alone. colapsing just form the ramming is not a factor
in LOTR orcs are basicly tortured and magicly disfigured elves, so the have an elven eyesight which is eaglelike so he maybe could see whats going on on the battlefield and on mountaintop he is pretty save...which is weird cause orcs dont care much about safety usually
Seeing as they don't retain the height, musculature, lifespan, resistance to sunlight, or anything else of their (alleged) elvish ancestry, there's no reason to believe they'd keep the eyesight.
to the dwarve kings armor: it looks pretty good, only, that with an eminent battle the king would wear his crown on top a fully closed helmet. He entire armor doesnt help much if you leave your most vulnerable spot wide open. Now in a duell type situation that can be on purpose because you can be pretty sure that most of your opponents attacks will focus your head and you can lure him into traps that way, but in a battlefield where a strike or unlucky arrow might come from anywhere you really want to have a full helmet with face coverage. Other than that the armor seems unnecesarily clunky but sicne dwarves are low on dexterity and high on strength anyway, what might be bad on a human might work just fine on a dwarf and thicker metal also means better protection though i doubt its neccesary, this metal plates which are i assume made of mithril which is said to be strong as steel but light as aluminium might withstand 2 handed battlehammers...though the shock of the impact would go through just fine, so in practise the armor will likely outlast its wearer
This guy would shit his pants at the sight of Warhammer 40,000.
Yeah because the main strategy of 40k is this
Comisar: go and die men and then they will drown in your blood or l will kill you.
And that is why they do it
*FIX BAYONETS*
@@Stasy809 basically Soviet Infantry Charge
I'm afraid if they ever do a Warhammer 40k movie they will have Hollywood shenanigans and do lots of dumb things during the battles
Since the barrel obviously worked so well, while not use it again?
I think you don’t get sheep / goats physical build and crash resistance
But you did show more awareness for species details in later videos, particularly the narnia one
All in all an entertaining critizim of a poorly planned battle
Edit: fair play for having enough logic to tell sheep from goats
Hmmm, this mostly makes sense a few problems though: Firstly, the women fighting in the ranks is to show the desperation of the people of Laketown. Most of them are holed up in the city, which Azhag attacks for that reason as well as supplies. If it were to become a siege Azhag would win in such a case. otherwise great vid!
His name is Azog.
@@Ninjaananas Sorry, been playing a lot of Warhammer: total war recently
He knows the headbutting dwarfs name is iron head..... IRON HEAD!
ähm no his name is Dain ironfood
Cyrus Hansen Ironfoot
@@charlottewalnut3118 he should have kicked the orcs in the balls instead lol
I think it's a joke on how he headbutts orcs.
Oh my goodness you are so articulate! I love how you talk!
Immediate subscription!