This Bike is Low Key Cool!
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 19 фев 2024
- Review of the modern Marin Muirwoods
PATREON: / pathlesspedaled
STICKER STORE: www.pathlesspedaled.com/store
SHIRTS: www.pathlesspedaled.com/store
INSTAGRAM: / pathlesspedaled
Affiliate Links:
Riding Camera: www.insta360.com/sal/go_2?ins...
360 Camera: www.insta360.com/sal/one_x2?i...
Studio Camera: amzn.to/2U9SQiJ
Studio Mic: amzn.to/3eehci8
Fave Multitool: amzn.to/3ec9ntk
Fave Pump: amzn.to/3kd6Any
Huge credit to Marin for actually making nice looking steel bikes for the masses. Outside US Marin prices are decent and affordable unlike Surly which become expensive in many non north American countries.
The Muirwoods is part of the Marin tradition going back to the 1980/90's. The bike is sold to personalize over a lifetime. You are getting a steel fork and frame, tire clearance, and smooth comfortable geometry. Over time as components wear out you make your own upgrades. For example, to lighten the weight, replace the crankset and rear cassette with a Shimano MTB or Advent X set-up, light weight pedals, Marin Ergonomic grips, carbon seat post, titanium rail saddle, and a set of Gravelkings (tires). That would take off a few lbs. Then enjoy.
IMO the 2021 version of the bike makes way more sense for its intended purpose. That version came with a 3x9 setup. This version seems targeted towards the "gravel-curious"; almost as if they're acknowledging that you're almost immediately gonna upgrade to a plusher/fatter tire and follow all the dirt paths in your area.
This is literally what I came to the comments to say.
I put 3x9 on my 2016 Ritchey Ascent. I've owned more than 25 bikes in my life so far and I believe it's the best drivetrain ever. I even went so far as to buy older octalink cranks to achieve a 47.5 chainline (135mm OLD). It's simply the best setup I've ever used.
don’t forget that the 2021 version came in matte black which is way sexier than the gloss which will show every scratch.
Reminds me of that black old school steel rigid 29er that Bike Snob NYC had for the past 15 years. Or my 2012 rigid jamis dragon 29er, also black. A bike for life.
Hi PLP, hi all out there
I own a Muirwoods 2023 (L, 1.82 meters) for couple of weeks. I ride some old school Marins like Redwoods, Eldridge Grade or Pine Mountain, which I love. Even the company nowadays seems too big, there obviously still is some innovative spirit in with them. Therefore and because I fell in love with the nice look and interesting geometry I decided to organize one, which here in Switzerland wasn't that easy. Despite I always thought the bike to probably be a bit heavy, before all the wheelset and rubbers, I decided to give it a chance. Moreover it was well-priced and the very best thing was: Here, I finally could mount my 10 yo HED Ardennes - nice US wheels from a short time with skewers and discs. And as you know too: wheels change the game
My verdict complains plusminus with PLP:
- whole bike: quite heavy but enlightable. If I get really warm with the frame, I'll invest in a lighter crank as small parts, I guess a bring it down on 10.5-11kilos
- frame: I love steel for being more flex vertically and ride stuff like Tange premium, Reynolds and Ritcheys. That's why I hoped this to have more flex too. This one is a bit "waterpipeish", still more souple then cheap alloy, but not as it could be. But really ok for this price...
- wheels are sturdy but - sorry - nor climb nor commuter friendly, also the tires. Passionate cyclists will tear off both first. I changed to 35mm Panaracers, which under 3 bars seem to roll better on asphalt
- crankset and bearings is trash metal, from valuable resource to recycling without an intermediate step, the china way. Get rid off...!
- Microshift: firm and crisp shifting
- Sunrace Cassette: mid-weight but valuable, mid-range gearing I also find, there are some funny jumps without benefit, but ok for the price
- Tour-ability: Nice with many mounts. Comfort on rides longer than 3 hours still to experience
- Rack: A cheap and very light black matte Decathlon rack looks great and does a really good job
- Stem: I changed to 70mm quickly, now I look for a better handlebar - this one is heavy and for me too flat and much too wide
- Riding up: a bit wobbly as PLP states, but well enough. I know riding...
- Riding down: stable as stated
- Gravelability: On unpaved roads it ride very well, above all with the Ardennes. The long wheelbase does what I thought it would
Foto of my Muirwood: I have, but I did not find how or where to send or post 😉Late 50-ties, you know...
Over all: Nice for the price. And an option with lighter stuff all around, especially for my daily 25 km commuting with rack and bags...
Acknowledgement to PLP: Nice work you do with your channel. I took you into consideration some years ago before buying the Ritchey Outback - it became a love story. This Muirwoods I bought before your review, which proves: You and me its a match💕. I'm always interested in what you broadcast and rely on your points of view. Honest, independent, unagitated - I recommend in any sense. I hope you will accompany me for many years to come ❤🔥
Now I will go on patreon and support you
Ride on and have a good time!
Chris
What a fine reply to PLP and for all of us. I learned so much both from Russ and from your reply to him. Thank you.
I really like the Ergotec Riser Bar 50 on my Muirwoods, would recommend :) The stock one was also too flat for my wrists
Totally unrelated to this vid, but I was watching a recent GCN video and they said something about for people who ride “party pace” that the details of whatever it was they were talking about wasn’t really all that important. I did a spit take when they said party pace. You’ve been noticed by the go fast weigh weenie crowd.
“party pace” has been used since at least early 80’s in USA. Check out weekly “Taco Ride” in Iowa for a “Party Pace” experience. ✌️🙏
I, too, think it was a nod to Russ as he has been popularizing the term, tho' I disagree about GCN being only about the go-fast crowd. Sure, lots of their chatter is about the latest and greatest in lighter and stiffer and more aero, but there's much more to their productions and presentations and general bike advocacy. And sort of funny but this vid by Russ should be about a mighty fine party-pace bike for less than a grand, yet he seems to be focused on its lack of high-speed performance or something like that and no knock, we all want to go faster and faster and hey, I'm aiming for a trophy in the over-60 class at a gravel event, so I'm right there with the need for my rivals to eat my dust. Party pace is one thing but not everything. Sometimes you just need to stomp on the pedals and let it all hang out. :)
@@robbchastain3036 Disagree about GCN. It actually did shock me how I lost interest in GCN after speed became unimportant to me. 1-5 MPH will not increase my enjoyment of cycling-only make it more expensive. Party pace is one thing but not everything for you-but not for everyone.;). Some people put on running shoes to enjoy a hike. They are not trying to run or go fast-ever. They would enjoy their hike less if they started hammering. Same thing on my bike.
@@robbchastain3036 you are correct, GCN isn't 100% about going fast and shaving weight, but their content is far more oriented that way than Russ's. Best of luck in your race and I hope you get the biggest trophy. Still, I was thrilled they used the term "party pace." I proudly wear a "Team Sloth I'll get there when I get there" cycling jersey on a hunger awareness ride I do and people get a kick out of the shirt and they laugh even harder when I tell them I ride party pace.
@@zimmejoc Thanks for your reply and my deal at age 64 is more surprise than anything, surprise that I can still ride well and, who knows, contend for a trophy in my age class. Or not as it doesn't matter to me as it did for a time in my youth when I won a variety of road races. And I would say I was always into riding fast throughout my childhood because my Dad was into auto racing as an engine builder--in San Francico he had a shingle as Chastain High-Performamce Engines in the 60s--and he happily bailed on it all after a championship-winning year as one of two engine men with the Bud Moore team and the Factory Ford Trans-Am Mustangs in 1970. So I was always trying to go fast back then and turns out, that foundation has served me well throughout my adult years and party pace is fine with me. We all need a little low and slow riding in our lives and I dig the mellow scene promoted by Russ and his bikes with racks and all sorts of bags for the leisure set. 😀
One of my favourite bikes. I have a white one with purple/pink paint splashes from '88 and a blacked out one from 2021. Both now have been converted into gravel/travel bikes. It's a great entry point for someone who wants to mess around with a steelie. Thanks so much for this review.
I've always looked a the Muirwoods and the Kona Dew as a cheap alternative to a Surly Grappler. When you compare the geo they are all very similar.
You could buy either and modify to your preference similar to a flat bar Grappler for a fraction of the price. Selling the bits you don't need upgrading the drivetrain when the OEM one wears out and investing in what you value. (tyres, saddle, pedals)
the first gen dew is one of the best kept ATB secrets, because it will devour a 700x50c tire if you swap to a less massive front derailleur and rides like a dream wherever you point it
This is interesting. Must go investigate geo a bit!
I built touring bike for my father, based on frameset 2016 year. I think old Geo better than now.
Double bar, sensah 1*12 speed, 29*1,9 tyres - my father is happy.
May be frame can be more rigid and have changeable mech hanger, but it does work very well.
Muirwood is a great bike with decent price. I wish more brands provided steel bikes with decent prices.
Giant do
Commuter, weekend tourer, flat-bar gravel grinder.... Seems like a great all-rounder! Shame it weighs so much, but that tends to be the case with Marin bikes from what I understand.
I love Marin's style and ethos with their bike designs, but I'm not sure I'd buy another of their full suspension bikes after seeing where the monetary savings come from in those.
Idk about ethos but as for parts they share a lot with GT and Polygon, because the brand has been under Polygon for a while. Not a big fan of rims, though chainring is adequate but nothing spectacular.
I had one of these 12 years ago. Things have changed a bunch!
I have a 2019 Muirwood (pre 1x) it's an incredible bike, as you said, bombproof. It really is a do-it-all bike, and the funky rasta paintscheme is a plus.
Great review!I have the Marin Nicasio 1 .With a few upgrades it is the perfect bike for me.
I started mountain biking years ago in 1995 in Singapore, when I was 25 and my first mtb was a Marin Rocky Ridge. Loved it to bits and had great adventures with it. Fast forward to 2024, I'm now 54, living in Australia and multiple bikes later, I'm back riding a Marin again, this time a steel frame Pine Mountain 1 which I use for bikepacking. Marin are still making great bikes. Their support is great too! Steve "Gravy" Gravenites answered all my questions! 👍
Credit to you for integrity. Love this channel.
Awesome that you reviewed it!
Great review Russ. I have a Muirwoods and it's a funky sob but I love it
I think the four corners, especially the new one with the additional mounts and new price point is a great deal. I just sold my 2023 and plan to get the 2024.
Pro Wheel crank found on Schwinn, Mongoose Giant, etc. Press fit chain ring.
I have the exact same crank. The chainring is fixed to the crank arm.
Makes an excellent platform for upgrades if you find a used one, it sounds like.
This bike looks a little like my old, rigid frame Marin Pine Mountain except with skinny tires. I'm still running on the 27.5+ x 28's that came with the bike. I have a good road and gravel bikes. But year in year out I always take more rides on the Pine Mountain than my other two lighter, fancier bikes. I enjoyed your review of this bike.
Great look at that Marin. They also offer a great drop-bar ATB bike-Gestalt-X with 68 degree headtube and 425 chain-stay, and light-"ish" aluminum for retail $1,400. Seems like a great deal. I would own it if the down tube could take a front derailleur.
Thomson's 7050 aluminum riser bars, 7000 series aluminum Elite stem, and seatpost would help with that weight😁🤘🤘
Or their not overly priced😁 3/2.5 Titanium riser bars and seatposts😁. Here in 🍁, those handlebars would be close to
💰500.00, and their Ti seatposts are close to 💰400.00😳
My wife just got a DSX FS. Aluminum frame, a little more expensive, similar to this bike but it resolves a lot of the issues you’ve found with the Muir Woods. Better gear ratio (Deore 12 speed), thicker meats (45 mm Riddlers), tubeless compatible. I guess I’ll find out about the chainring, it seems to be the same and will require a slightly smaller replacement. Thanks Russ!
After watching a lot of videos about this brand, I decided (two years ago) to buy the 2020's version of this bike...
For me it was the ultimate commuting machine, I was able to go wherever I wanted, I just didn't like the handle bar that much, I am used to shorted handlebars...
And everyone says that this version is a lot better that the one I used to have.
Mine was stolen, by the way...
Love marin! I have the kentfield 2 and it seems very similar to this one. Currently have it with the surly corner bar but might look into converting to drop bars later down the line.
I put a Jones bar on my 4 Corners and it’s my favorite bike ever
I'm glad I'm not the only one. Rode mine for a while stock. Put a jones bar on it ain't looking back!😅😅
Excellent video, Russ. Future Bad Burgh Content is definitely going to buy some stickers off of future Russ!
Sick Surly Bridge Club
I like the specs on this for a moderately priced new bike. Braze ons! Wide tire clearance! Good review. I think the gearing choice is good. 38t is great and I don’t care about gear steps, only a decent range. The turd in the punch bowl for me is why QR axle with disc brakes? It should be rim brake! Or if you must a thru axle with disc to reduce the likelihood that the disc will rub.
I have a 2010 muriwoods 29er and it’s because of this that any future bikes I buy absolute have to be thru axle if it has disc brakes.
It’s such a pain in the 🍩 That once that wheel is set I will do anything in my power to not have to remove it again
Yeah dude! 🤘🏼 The Muirwoods is a great value bike, my opinion is that it would sell more if it was a different colour. Great video!
Switching to bigger tires will make the front wheel flops even more. Thanks for the video, rus!
Flop results may vary based on size and contact patch profile 🤓
Looks like a great commuter.
"Charming and cool, and definitely built like a tank." Yep, we agree. Glad you liked the bike, Russ.
can you confirm the max tire clearance for this frame? that would be greatly appreciated. regards.
@@niceup1177 Hello - it is designed to accommodate most tires up to 29 x 2.1". Thank you!
@1177 Max tire clearance is 29x2.4" but Maxxis Assegai in 29x2.5" fits with no issues which means there's potentially enough clearance for 27.5+ on suitable rims but no bigger than 2.8" I guess.
Handles like a shopping trolley, but in a good way,,, ok?
Great channel with fantastic content Russ! New Muirwoods seems to be a "wolf in sheep's clothing". Inconspicuous at first glance and classified as urban bike, which makes it easy to believe that it may not be sturdy enough for off road use. Meanwhile, its hidden value and above-average versatility lies not only in its simplicity but, above all, in the price-to-potential ratio this bike offers with its steel frame, phenomenal geometry and tons of tire clearance. Maxxis Assegai in 29x2.5" fits with no issues which means there's potentially enough clearance for 27.5+ on suitable rims but no bigger than 2.8" I'd guess. All in all a set of MTB tires, 32T chainring and an alt bar swap will unlock the real potential of this bike and turn it into an almost thoroughbred adventure rig. Although thru axles and few more frame and fork mounts would definitely be a significant advantage. Otherwise it seems like a solid platform for an ATB on a budget.
I think a surly corner bar would look great on this
My triple butted steel marin Muir Woods was my first mtb purchased in 1994, if you flicked the down tube it rang like a bell, only other frame of the many I flicked that 'sounded' so nice was a Fat Chance. Rode it from SF to HB on self contained tour. Sadly thieves tried to use the frame to pop the U-lock off and bent the top tube.
People overlook the similar HARO BEASLEY too. 1x10, turned mine into a trail-mmuter w knobys.
thats a nn changable chainring sadly, just. pressed onto the spider. but. there are some bargaiun miranda or aliexpress cranksets. out there so can be changed for not a lot. hope this helps
YOO Russ is reviewing a bike I actually own?? So cool!
I bought this one as a commuter and ended up upgrading to something completely different. Haven't gotten around to selling my Muirwoods yet but that's the plan. I definitely slapped a FSA Metropolis handlebar on it (way swept back and some rise), with a long stem to make it work, and a rear rack to carry my stuff around. I have some chunky hills and the gearing is simply not low enough for my chicken legs, especially with groceries, but I think it would be a sweet bike to build up.
That front chainring was the real kicker for me. It would drop the chain all the freaking time, sometimes multiple times a ride, and usually while climbing which was just not the best. The other complaint I have is the derailleur hangar is part of the bike frame instead of a separate piece, which is a big no no for me.
But for $900 its a solid bike imo, less funky than the Larkspur (which has the same gearing, but is heavier), and a chill ride. The 40mm tires are pretty nice if you're used to road bike tires, but I've moved to 650B's per Russ's suggestion on my current bike and it's way better.
Can confirm the wheels are not tubeless compatible, per and email with Marin.
Cheers!!
Hey I am subscribed to your channel just wondering when you are going to make a video on the Surly Bridge Club.That is similar to the Muirwoods.
Could you do a video on the Trek 4300? I bought this bike in 2007; I changed every part/component🤘🤘
Seems odd that Marin dropped the Muirwoods headtube angle all the way from 72deg to 67.5deg in one model change (vs old 2020 model). Particularly so if you compare it to a hardtail with front suspension it's more like a 66.5 degree angle accounting for sag that the Muirwoods doesn't have. I'll stick with my aluminum Kona Dew plus that weighs 30lbs with a Topeak MTX rack, 2 bottle cages, headlight, Ornot bar bag & inner bar ends attached. The 70deg headtube angle on the Dew is just fine for a general use town/ gravel/ light trails bike based on my experience.
I strongly considered getting one of these but NOBODY had them in stock to test ride...in Marin County! Glad I passed on it, it seems like a neat concept but a hard sell over something like the Kona Dew which is lighter and has 650bx47 out of the box...and cheaper...or the Hudski (huzzah, another Marin Co. bike brand!)for more money, but a comfortably better bike.
I think I remember Marin's site saying this can fit up to 29x2.3 but don't rec going 27.5 as it could lower the BB more than prefered for off-road riding.
A cursory view of the backing on that crank suggests this is a swaged mount, but it would reduce the cost and steel hi-lo tooth wears slower than any aluminum, so _not_ terrible...
I agree, I think it's swaged
What is your opinion about the cut out on the chainstay slab on the drive side?
Ragley's steel MTB frame also has a cut out and an additional triangular reinforcement beam welded to the BB shell, which I have seen a crack at the slab cut out. Others like Surly MK and Chromag use a slab without cut out. The Marin slab seems a bit thicker though(?), and Marin's Pine Mountain MTB frame also has the same cut out.
Bike frame has designed intent tolerance. Everything eventually will break, if the frame does not crack at the slab, it will crack somewhere else like the dropout or seatstay weld. But wouldn't one wants to take the Marin Muirwood on a single track? :P
Chainring appears like it could be a SRAM GXP style direct mount, but you can't see the bolts on those without removing the cranks so it wouldn't be possible to tell with the crank mounted.
There are no bolts holding the ring in place.
I accidentally built this when I put skinnys and a rigid fork on my old 29er hardtail. A great kind of bike to have for tooling around with the kids, this is a cheaper way to get there.
I wonder how the gearing would feel with bigger tires
99% sure its the exact same wheelset and drivetrain from my entry level larkspur. i feel like the wheels and the cassette are where the weight is. pretty keen to change out to a regular old 2x9 if i can make it work
Giant have some steel bike available also. Great for the more casual rider than want something simple and reliable without having to invest Rivendell money
Muirwood or Larkspur? What’s your preference and why?
This bike sounds heavy
Wow! This is over 30 pounds?! That is heavy especially for a bike without suspension and just a 1X drivetrain!
I've been dying to see how Russ would break down a 90s era hybrid! Feels like we got pretty close! Begs the question: more like the Hudski or more like a mom/dad hybrid?
I really enjoy my wife’s Larkspur ;) I wish Marin improved the quality control (came with bent fork) a little bit, but it is my only complaint considering the price point.
I want a Larkspur!!
Chainring seems removable with a centre lock
The RC version is still on the website (US) with IGH. It seems this bike would be related to the Larkspur that you previously tested. That has 650b tires. Also this model might take tires larger than 650bx47. But why change a mid-price point setup?
@@matti7966 My bad. I searched "muirwoods 650b" and was linked to the RC model with no obvious year designated. It is a 2022 year model.
That weight is for sure coming from the chromoly frameset, drivetrain (specifically the cassette and crank) and wheelset. Basically, the whole bike😂😂. Around the same weight as an equally-priced hardtail.
How's it compare to the 1987 model ?
I'd rather have a '90's Muirwoods and stick a city or swept back handlebar on it.
Was going to say exactly the same thing. I'm not crazy about the yellow but all these bikes with raked-out forks and steep sloping top-tubes are just Fugly. Outside of the disk brakes this 2024 version has nothing to offer over the 30+ year old model.
Sharp looking bike for the $$.
Kinda wished it came in the 80's/90's colorway. Would be a great ridgid mtb just more progressive then my 87 fisher. Bet it would eat high speed fireroad descents.
67 degree headtube angle with 40s?
Also, do any of your bikes have Thomson bars, stems, and sestposts?
I have Thomson stem and seatpost, and I gotta say, kinda overrated. They’re nice, made in America, but honestly not a big difference in ride quality or weight. Definitely more bling bling than bang/buck.
@arden0 I paid 💰141.00🍁 for my 130mm 5° rise Thomson Elite stem in 2010, and I'm glad I bought it🤘🤘. In 2018, I finally bought their Elite seatpost, I paid 💰145.00🍁; it's their 410mm one. At one time, I weighed 260lbs. and it's held up🤘🤘 "YEAH❗️"
The drivetrain should at least be XT M770 and M772😁
Something I've always wondered; especially on a 1x, how many riders actually use that 11-tooth sprocket? Wouldn't it make more sense to start with a 13- or 15-tooth sprocket for 90% of us riders?
Looks like the older version of the Kona Dew (700C version).
I see it still comes with a 160mm front brake rotor, even though a 180mm is, and has always been, advertised.
What does ATB mean?
Rigid MTB that gets better the faster you go. These bikes are perfect for so much real world cycling. I prefer 650b wheels and a front derailleur but otherwise looks fine.
Probably a steel chainring and not replaceable
Is anybody aware of a bike that gets shipped with Microshift sword installed? Havent seen any yet.
So can this take 700c x 50? Just bought one 3 weeks ago? Bikes online has it for $399
Easily.
i put mine 29x2.3 tire maxxis rikon race
Would I need different wheel sets or can I just swap out the tires with what came stock on the bike? Looking ant some WTB venture tires 700cx50.
@@JosDoin just swap the tires.
It seems like a Poseidon Redwood is a better deal. Same price, lighter, huge tire clearance.
It depends on the geo you want. The Muirwoods is unique in having the much slacker front end.
❤
@1:30 This is why i cannot stand to run the advent x despite buying the mech and really wanting to run it: that cable pull path is just wack. smh. if they had the "ferule" that holds the end of the housing pivoted 30 or 45 degrees into the wheelset then the cable would pull fare-more-generally straight. smh.. its a shame
What happened to Marin and bikes online?
I just bought this a few weeks ago. They have great deals on Marin bikes right now
And have you rode any Titanium frames?
If I remember correctly, Marin made Titanium frames👍👍
You are correct
Marin has made a number of titanium bikes, but I think you might be thinking of Merlin, who were much more focussed on and known for titanium.
@arden0 Now that you mentioned Merlin, I remember 😄👍👍
Wheel flop squirrelliness does not seem fun when creeping up to traffic lights as a commuter.
I'd give it ~400-500€ considering it being very heavy and low-end spec, but 800-900€ does not seem like a good deal.
Those chainstays seem much longer than 430mm, to have that much space with 700c*40mm tires.
I'm basing this comment off the clearance on my gravel bike (with 425mm chainstays) and 40mm tires.
How many of your bikes have the Jegwire Kevlar reinforced compressionless brake housing?
I think I bought that cable for my 26er.
@Fetherko I'd like to buy it again. Does my XT M739 V-brake levers and M760 XT V-brakes need Kevlar reinforced compressionless housing, not likely; I just like how the Kevlar looks🤘🤘
It’s pricey, but I buy the segmented housing up every time I find a sale. Every bike of mine gets it, and IMO between the housing and the mandrel-drawn cable, it makes every drivetrain better in every way.
I think a lot of us would be interested in seeing a return of something similar to whiskey and bikes - maybe wine and bikes once you get more settled given the ex-pat community in Gerona. It would be an interesting introduction to the bike community there in Gerona also.
I’d suggest the Four Corners instead ….
I don't like anything on this bike, good review
The Muir Woods has always as us been on my radar, but water pipe steel and not easily upgradable BB is a turn off.
Is it press fit? Because threaded BB is easily upgraded. Name brand BB can be had for $20ish and the tool is affordable too. Decent cranks are expensive though.
beggin for bigger meats…😂 PAUSE
A handsome bike but some wacky colors would be a lot more fun because at the end of the day it's begging for a lifetime of mods.
Are you guys in Europe? The streets look Europeanish.
Dare i say almost Surlyish in design and thought process...
It looks so ugly! 4 corners is way better looking
Especially ugly in the all Black paint job.
@@garyrussell5373 has its charm. Reminds me of that black old school steel rigid 29er Bike Snob NYC has for the past 15 years. Or my 2012 rigid jamis dragon 29er, also black. A bike for life.
The original looks better (despite cheesy 90s graphics) and undoubtable rides better. Slack headtube angles have ruined biking and are destroying the moral fiber or our youth. If you don't have the patience to learn to ride a bike with a "steep"(aka "normal") headtube angle, you shouldn't be biking, just get a car.