Destiel: A Study in Queerbaiting | Supernatural Video Essay
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- Опубликовано: 3 мар 2021
- In this Supernatural video essay, I explore the popular fanfiction pairing of Destiel. Destiel is a term used to describe the pairing of Dean Winchester and Castiel. I explore the history of the pairing, the various tropes associated with it, and the reactions it elicits from the Supernatural fans. Is their relationship gay, or are they just homoerotic platonic buddies?
If you're curious about the phenomenon that is Destiel, this video is for you. I explore the origins of the pairing, the various fanfictions and fanart based on it, and the reactions it receives from both Supernatural fans and the show's cast and crew.
Music by the wonderful and talented Lukrembo:
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I agree with all the things that u said except for the misha part, i never felt baited by him, he wasn't the one writing the show & i never took him not pretending the baiting doesn't happen as a sign that destiel will become canon just like i didn't take his complaint about the misogyny in the show as a sign that the show would do better, he's the only one who didn't gaslight fans & call them delusional for seeing what the writers were intentionally putting, so it breaks my heart how some people would blame him for the years of queerbaiting this show did, it also shifts the responsibility from the producers, show runners & writers to the actors who have zero power to make anything happen, i never met a destiel shipper who was baited by something misha said instead of scenes from the show, like when I ask people why u see dean & cas as a romance the answer is never coz misha said blah blah , it's always storylines & quotes & scenes from the show. And now yet again the writers made a decision & misha is taking the fall for it, disgusting.
SAME
Well said my friend
Thank you! I wanted to say the same thing. And considering he admitted to play Cas has having romantic feelings for Dean and was pushing for the confession scene to happen, the idea he was queerbaiting is even more absurd. Too bad, it's a great vid otherwise.
Yeah, Misha was the one who said we’re not crazy and was playing Cas as in love with Dean after a certain point because he believed in it too
misha has always been very respectful and open to talk about it when nobody else was, but keep in mind that destiel is what kept him on the show, so it's kind of obvious why he would want to keep the heller fandom alive
Excellent analysis. I never felt baited by Misha. I always felt that he was making fun of the show for all the subtext.
I feel that he wasn’t trying to bait. I feel that the people who scripted the show were the ones baiting where as Misha was only a supporter of the actual relationship and was trying to push for it to be a reality although they wouldn’t allow it. I feel Misha never tried to bait but wanted to make it more for us then the writers would allow.
I agree misha never meant harm, he actually wanted it.
@@charletmcwhippydink5627 I kind of felt the same. He seemed very guardedly upset after the episode aired and posted one of the first tweets I saw about the Spanish version of Dean's dialogue. Jensen I'm undecided about. He was actually the first cast member to blatantly imply there was a sexual relationship between Dean and Cas. There was a 30ish second shot of him lounging on a couch with Sam and Cas (still half in character) in a kitchen behind him (maybe on set in Bobby's house? can't remember). Jensen looked RIGHT into the camera, looked straight at Cas/Misha, right back to the camera, then pointed to Cas, pointed to himself and mimed a blowjob. That was back in I think Season 6? Then I heard about the homophobic stuff he'd said at some Cons and I never really figured out whether he was pressured to say the homophobic stuff, and whether the miming in the candid vid was him supporting Destiel or being an utter asshole and poking fun.
I'm not sure we'll ever find out, but I honestly don't think Misha is homophobic, I think - like the actor who played Poe in Star Wars - he *actually* wanted the ship to happen (or at least would have been happy to play it on screen) but got swept up in the mammoth that the Destiel Drama became. Not that being swept up in it removes all responsibility, I just don't think he was being malicious or deliberately cruel.
I genuinely like the show and the fell in love with the characters, even if the writer's killed off literal everyone. But I will never get over how the show made us think that Dean and Cas had a deeper relationship just to constantly deny it. And they finally was a big disappointment to me for many reasons besides Dean and Cas unresolved feelings towards each other.
yeah:(
The show didnt "make you think" that. It isnt there fault you cant accept two men can have love and caring towards eachother without it being romantic, and gay. Thats on YOU
Misha didn't bait, I think he did what he could to validate hurt fans in a system hellbent on gaslighting and suppressing criticism. Also, I think it's worth noting Jensen pretty much came around to it in the Dabb era, when it became more serious and less homoerotic fantasy banks. Jackles gushing about the detail of Castiel leaving a handprint on Dean in 15x18 is like wild amounts of growth from his earlier reactions to destiel. But overall, this is super well made!
In the end of things, Misha was the only one that let fans feel like they weren’t imagining the queer baiting for a long time. Misha never promised anything in terms of destiel, he just wanted everyone to know that yes he can see the queer baiting and yes he would’ve been okay with Destiel eventually becoming canon. He only ever had good intentions and most queer watchers are aware of this hence why most don’t blame him for the baiting of the show.
Sera Gamble had it out for Misha bc he spoke about how spn frequently kills off female characters.
I don't think Misha baited at all. If anything he was the biggest advocate for Destiel.
I haven’t watched a single episode of supernatural but for some reason I keep watching these Destiel video essays. I don’t regret my choices
Don't start. It isn't worth it. I just about regret the time I invested.
@@Theo-oh3jk Wasn't planning on it 😅
Me too. I don't have the energy to watch 15 seasons but I'm binge watching Destiel moments, analysis and fanfics. Send help.
@@shiny2401 gurl, get out!! lol
@@shiny2401 youre in too deep might as well watch it
honestly im still very salty that i wasted years of my teenage life thinking that show was gonna make destiel canon
They essentially did in Cas’ send-off. Dean may not have reciprocated, but Cas was very clear about his feelings.
I agree. That's why I've calmed down abit when I start to ship characters, just so I'm not dissapointed if it doesn't happen. Cause Destiel was just a different kind of pain
(SPOILER ALERT FOR THOSE STILL WATCHING)
Same. Even though in the end we got Cas telling Dean he loved him, unfortunately that still could be taken both ways by people. It was like a big slap in the face, even with misha saying that Destiel officially went Canon after that episode aired (15x18)
To be honest, their relationship is a good example of the good representation. Destiel never was forced, it was built under a good storytelling where we can see an angel who was in charge to punish angels who fall in love with humans in the past and then he fell in love with a human anyways. Castiel has a good story and the relationship between them was so pure, every season we can see how much they care for each other, and try to survive together. Even though, the tension was always strong. I hated when the producres tried to forced Castiel in situations with women because he never was interested. The thing that i hated is they killed Castiel after the confession and then Dean didn't mention anything about it. He was affected and he was suffering but we never saw something about the impact that Castiel words on him. It is bad when they have a good example of representation and they wasted it just like that.
Personally never felt bait by Misha otherwise he always was the most insterested in that this relationship is what we thought it was, a romantic love between them. The problem was Jensen at the beginning but i think he changed his thoughts about it. Was a good chimistry totally wasted.
It felt so disrespectful how they treated castiel’s character in those last two episodes bc it seemed like he didn’t matter at all to the other characters which made the last two episodes seem like a person who’s never ever seen the show but read a synopsis of it had written it.
Yeah I really hated that the show treated castiel like that but I'm not surprised after season 7 his character was basically treated like a punching bag like in the season 14 premiere episode I really hated the show truly wasted his potential
This is a great video and I mostly agree with it. The only part that I don't agree with is that misha was baiting the fans. It never felt like that when the fandom would interact with him. This is just my personal opinion but he made me (and a lot of others) feel safe and validated. He'd crack jokes sometimes (which were hilarious btw 😂) but it never felt like he had any malicious intent or that he was making fun of us. It was him just trying to understand our viewpoint and support/encourage us to not let any negativity stop us from something that we love.
What I'm about to say next may make some people mad but before anyone comes at me, please note that I love Jensen too and I am not saying that he's homophobic. But as someone who was a closeted bi preteen/teen fan during the height of destiel, it hurt when Jensen would talk about it. I loved watching the cons and seeing the interactions between the cast and the fandom but it was also why I had a falling out with the show a few years back. I'm sure people know what I'm talking about and it's when one fan asked about how they could see that Dean was slowly becoming more comfortable in his sexuality and wanted Jensen's take on Dean's character development. It basically went down like Jensen saying he doesn't understand the question, the crowd booing, Jensen jokingly encouraging the crowd's response, and his swift dismissal of the question. He could've just said that he didn't personally see it that way so he didn't have any particular opinion on the development that she saw but understands that they have different viewpoints of the show. It's that easy to state your opinion without invalidating someone else's.
The pain that I felt after seeing that video was why I stopped watching the show. I couldn't watch any of Dean's scenes without feeling hurt by Jensen's words (not blaming him, i'm the one who took his words a certain way). But at the same time, I have Jensen to thank for being the catalyst for my coming out. As I've mentioned before, I was a repressed closeted bisexual (with internalized homophobia) and all my emotions had reached a boiling point after that. Leaving the fandom because of that video made me realize that I couldn't bottle it all up inside which resulted in me coming out to my family. My life has been 10 times better since coming out and I'm being completely genuine when saying thank you to Jensen.
The reason I'm even watching this video is because I came back into the fandom after the confession scene (more like dragged back in because it was trending everywhere and I couldn't escape it 💀).
Honestly though, I really did see myself in the character of Dean Winchester and the way they would write him had some pretty clear bi coding (even taking Cas out of the equation). And now I don't know how to end my comment because I was only trying to defend misha because he is so kind and understanding and it somehow turned into me ranting about my experience with the show so... idk, but if anyone's interested, you're all invited to Sam and Eileen's wedding taking place on a website near you (mainly twitter and tumblr) on March 21.
Thank you so much for sharing your story. I understand completely what you mean when you mentioned Jensen and that specific convention. It was hurtful to many fans that a discussion about sexuality of one fictional character was immediately shut down by some members of the cast, as if it was a taboo topic.
Thank you for sharing your story. I have seen that video too and I was so hurt by it that I couldn’t watch any interviews or con clips with Jensen for quite a while. I was very uncomfortable about him, I felt that he is homophobic and I was very disappointed in him, the actor, the man. I’m still a little hesitant to watch Jensen clips, he’s just not the human I would hope he would be.
I agree with you completely. The fact that Jensen openly denies Dean's Bi coding (and Destiel), and often in a rude manner, really let me down. He's not all I had hoped. I got into the Fandom after the show was over, so I didn't know that Jensen actively opposed it until I saw the clip you mentioned.
My thing is, if writers, actors, and production are unwilling to make a relationship progress to the natural, logical conclusion, especially when the characters have chemistry, just because it's a gay relationship, then the show is fundamentally homophobic. If Castiel had been female it wouldn't have been a question and quite frankly, I do not buy that it was unintended or started because fans didn't like female supports, they were joking and hinting at Dean not being staright before Castiel was ever a thing and honestly, I think it didn't work with females because Dean had this player, I'm trying too hard thing with them and none of the females broke the mold in the way Castiel did being this fish out of water. I think they were purposefully using Dean to queer bait and be this "is he or isn't he" type of character to get the gays to watch and be thirsty for representation they were never gonna get. And the way they ended the show and what they did with Castiel and Dean... It's actually kind of disgusting in context.
Thank you! This is very very well written
The narrator: the most popular ship before season four was winsest, yeah you heard that right-
Me: I- I don’t think I did
Lmaoo I still to this day don’t understand why ppl would ship two brothers together that’s fucking incest 😭😭😭😭
Desperate to not have the characters with women makes people do…upsetting and super gross things
It’s still a thing. Ao3 had over 33,500 fics about it and since Ao3 became a thing after the show started, I’ll assume that most of those come from after Destiel became a thing. In fact, I scrolled through. There were 11 fics added for Wincest today. I don’t know why it’s still a thing, it’s disgusting.
Now. I can understand not liking Destiel and all, okay? But the people who keep saying that "they're like brothers" "they're best friends" just DON'T want to see. The thirteenth season is enough to understand it, and not even all of it. Only the first few episodes, the ones where Dean is in mourning like a widower. And no, it's not my imagination, Sam pretty much admitted it. Sam complained about Dean's behavior with Jack, saying more or less these words (more or less because I watched the series dubbed in my language and it is not always translated perfectly) "You act like dad acted with us" John Winchester, as much as I hate him (and I do, a lot) has been mourning Mary for TWENTY-TWO YEARS. And Sam comes out that Dean treats Jack like their father, who had lost his wife? And how has Dean's behavior with Jack changed after Castiel's return? Do we ignore it? We ignore that in the twelfth season, when Mary returns, to make her understand that it was actually Dean, he tells her that John had given her a Ledd Zeppelin Mixtape to win her over, and we find out that Dean gave Cas a Ledd Zeppelin Mixtape? Do we really want to ignore all this? Why? Why can't Dean be bisexual? Why does he have to be the alpha male who sleeps with every woman he meets? Why can't he love an ANGEL WHO DOESN'T REALLY HAVE A GENDER? Because let's face it, if Cas had been in a female body, no one would have said anything and they would have ended up together before the end of the apocalypse. Let's not fool ourselves, please.
Sorry for my english, i used translate.
They didn't even have to make it canon in a big way. To me it would've just been enough if after 15x18 we got to see just a HINT that their feelings were mutual. Like the brothers having a heart to heart and Dean being a little upset and saying something like "I should have said it back..." or something and then instantly pretend like it's nothing and like he's fine, like he always does, if Sam asked any questions about it. That's literally all it would've taken for me to be at peace with the outcome of their relationship.
Exactly! I would have been satisfied if there was a scene in which Dean was telling Sam about the confession. Because then at least it would look like Cas's feelings were acknowledged. It would have been okay even if Dean said he didn't feel the same way. But the finale! It was as if Cas never existed!
@@britnyblaize9836 I so agree with you and the comment above, just Dean acknowledging Castiel's confession would've gone a long way. Making a relationship canon doesn't mean it has to play out physically or in a big way.
Dean thought it was weird as hell when he said it, did you not see his face, he was confused like bro, we are family your like a brother.
I got into this show when Season 6 was airing and until probably Season 12, had no clue about this theory, but once it's explained, it's pretty difficult to ignore. And it's also pretty difficult to pretend that it wasn't deliberate.
If Cass was not introduced I would not have watched the show for so long and also I did have the false hope of Destiel going canon, I stopped watching after I heard that 15 would be the last season and said to myself "I will binge watch it when it is done." and OH BOY OH BOY. I WAS NOT SPOILED SO WHEN I SAW CASTIEL'S CONFESSION I WAS SHOCKED AND DESTROYED WHEN HE WASN'T IN ANY SCENES IN THE LAST TWO EPISODES LIKE WOW.
I heard they had to rework the final episodes because covid shut down production. When they were finally able to resume they were limited due to covid restrictions so for the final episodes they couldn’t bring back everyone they wanted to.
@@raquelveloz2481 yeah but they could have edited things, they are an effects show ffs.
@@zhulimoon46 their budget would have already been stretched thin with the additional covid protocols. Network probably wouldn’t have approved an increased budget for more costly cgi and special effects.
@@raquelveloz2481 then do it later. or end it on 15x18 and say you will do a movie later.
the greatest love story it is. I dropped the show years ago cause I was so done with the queerbating, but here I am again, and it never stops trending on tumbler anymore.
Opinion from a straight guy who watched this series from season 1 to the very end with his ( taller, younger) brother:
I always saw Cass as a close friend to Sam and Dean. Almost like a 3rd Winchester brother .
THEN, Cass proclaims his romantic love for Dean in the last season. For me, it came out of nowhere. It felt forced. I felt like the writers were just pandering to the gay community.
But then Cass died literally seconds after proclaiming his love. I felt like the writers were pandering to everyone. Straight, gay, everything in between.
I now feel they were just too chicken shit to commit.
Maybe having a brother or having other men I am very close to makes me see the show from a different perspective. IDK. Men can care about other men without wanting to fuck.
But, the writers definitely couldnt decide and thatrs a disservice to all us fans.
Edited some typos.
I respect your opinion :). I always knew what Destiel was, even before I watched the show. I started seeing the ship name popping up everywhere. It was to the point I thought they were a genuine canon couple because of how many posts od Destiel I was seeing. When I looked up what it was, I decided to give Supernatural a watch to see why it's the most popular ship I've ever seen between two male characters.
Unfortunately for me, I never actually had a chance to look at their relationship blindly. I was aware of the ship from the very beginning, so I was always unable to see their relationship as anything other than romantic.
I could see where the brotherly side you see. And I'm glad you're not one of those pricks who scream in the comments, "tHEyRe STraIghT!!" So, thank you for not doing that lol. Anyways, yeah. Dean has called him a brother and a 3rd Winchester before.
I think my overall belief from my first watch is that Cas was in love with Dean, but Dean viewed him as...I don't know. I can't really make up my mind with Dean's side.
Cas' whole storyline in season 4 was so gay that even I didn't miss it, and I'm pretty much oblivious to everything lol. Come on, an angel falling from grace for a single human? I'm pretty sure there's an old movie with that same plot, except they're lovers in that one.
To me, it seems Cas was always in love with him.
But Dean, I struggled with seeing the Bi-subtext everyone got from him until I actually looked for it. I still ship it, but I still don't know how I perceive Dean's view on Cas.
The show had 4 show-runners. They never made up their mind because four different minds had different views of the characters and plot. All the characters were different in each show-runners era, all of the relationships were viewed differently. I love Supernatural, but the show could never make up its mind with anything.
The issue with Destiel is that they made up their mind.....to continue leading fans on and then calling them morons and crazy for catching on to the relationship. That's the worst part of this situation. Some of the crew would make tweets that their story line never happened, some would pretend they didn't know what Destiel was, some would at least have the decency to say it's not the intention of the show. But then they'd say, "anything is possible. Keep watching?" Yes, that's an actual tweet one of them said.
They did the same thing when Crowley died. Someone said, "he might come back in the future. Keep watching to find out!" And Mark Sheppard, who was kind of pissed by the route his character went, basically said not to lead fans on with promises they won't keep.
Supernatural, in the end, wanted to keep all their viewers. They didnt want to piss anyone off. They didn't want to lose any of that precious profit!
So they'd give a half-assed, "Dean and Castiel belong to the fans," and, "it's all up to the viewers' interpretations". That really pisses me off. Dude if they don't like each other romantically, CLARIFY IT. If they do like each other romantically, CLARIFY IT. This multiple choice bullshit really pisses me off. This isn't some video game, this isn't some damn choose-your-own-adventure book, it's a TV show. If you're gonna walk on eggshells to appease every viewer, you're gonna piss even more people off!
Wow I also thought the same things. for me in the first seasons with Cas it was clear that Destiel only existed for the gags. meanwhile, I'm curious to know how they will dub the last season in Italy
My thoughts alike. Men can form close bonds with each other without it being seen as gay.
I always knew it was meant to be a joke originally but as time progressed there relationship got more and more charged and it’s kinda hard to not pick up on and honestly I think ir does a disservice to the show. I liked Anna’s character and a lot of the other female love interests for the dudes and never knew that most fans didn’t feel the same way and that’s why they got killed off so frequently. I think it ruins things when writers change up there plans to please the fans Bc let’s face it, fans are not always intelligent and care ab the story we just want to be stimulated.
Still pissed about ACTUALLY being called crazy and delusional for believing in Destiel by people apart of the show. So I’ve been needing this. So thank you😁👏🏽👏🏽
I stopped watching the show 3 years ago bc of everything you said in your video only to be sucked in after 15x18 again (to be honest fuck my life I hate that for me it's only pain from here on).
Very good analysis btw.
You put into words perfectly what I tried and failed to explain to friends (who either haven't seen the show or watch as casual viewers).
The only thing I kind of disagree with is that Misha intentionally mislead us (I might be biased tho bc I love this middle aged white man 🤦🏻♀️). Misha has publicly spoken up against the misogyny and queerbaiting in spn and I feel like he was the only one who listened to us and tried to fight for us. He was also the one who brought up making destiel canon on multiple occasions just to be shot down and treated poorly by the rest of the cast and crew. (He said those things at conventions but I sadly can't recall which).
Other than that I loved the video 😊💕
I totally agree with your assessment of Misha. He was the only one who did not go to conventions & gaslight the fans. He acknowledged the romantic subtext; he did not pretend that the audience was imagining the romantic tropes & context. I also admire him for speaking out against the misogyny on the show regarding the killing off of female characters & the frequent use of the word 'bitch' in the scripts. He also seemed to be willing to play a queer character, so he had no problem with making Destiel canon.
@@theoddone6213 Yes exactly! He was also the only one who said that Cas' confession was a homosexual declaration of love and not just "up for interpretation". He stood by Cas being queer (affectionate) and acknowledged that afterwards they just buried the gays. He makes mistakes but he listens and tries to learn too. He listened to the fans who felt hurt by the way Cas' character arc was handled while everybody else just fucked off.
You have a great point @Julie F and @TheOddOne! I follow Misha on Twitter and I've seen that he tried to make amends with the fans who were angry about episode 15x18 and the finale, but even though he tried, and I truly believe that he had really good intentions, I don't think that the showrunners should have left him to deal with everything that happened in the fandom alone. It wasn't really fair for both the fandom and him that they decided not to address the issue, but instead they left him to do damage control.
@@PopDropChannel Yeah, I didn't like how Misha was the only one to come out to address everything. I wouldn't be surprised if the showrunners asked him to do that. They know that he's a fan favorite & probably felt like he could do damage control. The show didn't deserve Misha. Andrew Dabb treated him like crap, & they kept trying to kill his character off & often eliminated his scenes. Dabb also is on the record saying that he doesn't like Jensen. I am so glad that Misha & Jensen are no longer at the CW tbh.
@@theoddone6213 @PopDrop Misha was most probably their scapegoat and had to face the backlash alone. It definitely was not fair. For one he wasn't the one in charge of the decision or the one who had the answers the Fandom deserved. Especially after the whole controversy of the Latin American dub and all the things that came out afterwards.
And like you ( @TheOddOne ) said good for Jensen and Misha to get out of there. The show did not deserve them especially Misha.
I think the problem with the series even more than this with the lack of character development, the lack of consistency and the fact that it overstretched itself and took it so far too seriously
So true by the finale neither sam or dean had any character growth to me only castiel and even jack had a more character growth and he was on the show for only three seasons I really hated that Andrew dabb retconned a lot of things in the last four seasons just making a big mess like bringing gabriel back in season 13 only to kill him off a few episodes later bringing mary Winchester back at the end of season 11 only to die the same way as she died in the first episode 😒🤯🥶😠😡🤬😬
The lack of consistency is most likely due to the fact there is different writers for each episode. Each writer had different views of the characters and their relationships.
@@mrwine9922 yes your right about that but Andrew dabb was showrunner at this point he made a decision on what storylines that the show was going to and where the characters would go which by the end was mostly nowhere by the end of the series well except for jack and castiel and because out of all the female characters rowena she's the only female character who had a great ending to her story at all that's another big problem with the series the female characters were treated badly throughout the series 🤯😬😡🤬💁♀️👩
Very interesting video. I always appreciated that Misha Collins didn't gaslight fans into thinking they were crazy for seeing something in Dean and Cas scenes, and I don't think he ever truly (that I know of) implied anything was going to happen. But I do think he might have inadvertently given fans hope when there's no way the show ever would have gone there in any real or deep way. I think the writers just wanted to keep the train going for as long as they could, and in the end couldn't please anyone. Thank goodness things have changed in 15 years and now writers and shows are free to write queer stories into mainstream shows.
While I totally agree that queerbaiting in general is terrible and I obviously didn't appreciate it in Supernatural, one thing I will say for the whole Destiel storyline which you sort of touched on briefly in your analysis, is that regardless of the bad intentions behind it by the writers, it kind of worked 😅 while I agree we needed to see it finally pay off, and it's terrible that they kept it going for so long, only to gaslight fans, I personally actually thought the whole 'backwards and forwards, will they won't they' dynamic that the queerbaiting accidentally created between Dean and Castiel really fits the characters. The way I think of it, Dean is supposed to have been born in 1979 right, he grew up in 1980's/ 90's America, with a father who's only goal was to toughen him up and turn him in to a soldier who probably isn't going to take too kindly to his son questioning his sexuality. If Dean is Bi like a lot of people imagine him to be, to me, it makes perfect sense that he wouldn't admit it or maybe not even realise it himself for many years and then overcompensate with his whole matcho demeanor. Much as i would have loved Destiel to actually get together on the show, it actually seems a lot more realistic to me that Dean might be suffering from some serious internalized homophobia, and that therefore, even if he did reciprocate Castiel's feelings, he might not ever get to a point where he is able to come to terms with that or get comfortable enough to actually pursue an explicitly romantic and or sexual relationship with Cas. There's also obviously the possibility that even if he is in love with Cas romantically/ personality wise, he might just not be physically attracted to Cas's male form. Add to that, that Demons, heaven, hell, hunting, their entire chaotic lives, gets in the way of either of them having much time to dedicate to exploring their sexuality and relationship, and that they might be scared of overcomplicating things between them, it actually is kind of realistic that there might be YEARS of romantic or sexual tension between these two people without either of them having the guts to do anything about it until its too late. I think the problem is not necessarily the lack of confirmation/ closure on their relationship, but more the intentions behind their dynamic when it was written. If the writers explained something along those lines and it wasn't just because of queerbaiting, if there was deliberately that kind of reasoning behind the way the characters are played from the outset and that sort of clear reasoning behind the way their story turns out, it would probably be fine, but because the writers more than likely aren't putting this kind of thought behind it and they are pretty much definitely portraying the relationship like this without much deeper inspection, to hook in fans then claiming it's not happening at all, that's what makes it bad.
As good as this video is, there is another video that goes by the name "The Evolution of Destiel: A video Essay" by Media Buzzkill. It is an amazing video and none of the points the narrator makes are driven by emotions, they are all hard, logical facts and reasons. Its a must watch. Once you are done with it, you will end up agreeing with her, whether you ship Destiel or not.
P.S : Jensen, who I will never deny is an amazing person, did disappoint me with his disgusted reaction to Destiel. You can't say that you don't support that relationship, and still willingly shoot the scenes that you did. By season 8, EVERY PERSON ON THE SHOW *HAD* TO AT LEAST HAVE AN IDEA THAT NOTHING IN THE WAY THEIR RELATIONSHIP WAS BEING POTRAYED COULD BE INTERPRETED AS JUST PLATONIC. They couldn't have been that dumb. It's just not possible.
Media Buzzkill is an amazing channel and I 100% agree with you, her videos are wonderful.
"By season 8, EVERY PERSON ON THE SHOW HAD TO AT LEAST HAVE AN IDEA THAT NOTHING IN THE WAY THEIR RELATIONSHIP WAS BEING POTRAYED COULD BE INTERPRETED AS JUST PLATONIC."
If you look hard enough for something, you're gonna find it. Because that was how you wanted it to be.
But the fact that the actor playing the role was surprised enough to be disgusted about the theory should honestly tell you all you need to know about their intention.
@@LordKristivas Sorry, but I didn't have to look so hard. In fact, in season 4, 5, 6 and 7, I kinda tried to ignore any moment that might feel that it was a Destiel moment, because I wanted to believe that Destiel was not a thing, and was made up. In season 8 though, it was impossible for me to ignore it. I think the people involved did mean it when they said that Destiel wasn't a thing, but they also knew what kind of response audience was giving to that pair, so they played into it to get more viewers. They tried to eat their cake for as long as possible. Honestly, just watch the video I suggested. It really is everything I wanna respond with right now. Trust me, that video is not just another fan on a rant. In fact the narrator is taking an objective look at the show. Please do watch, and you WILL realise, that the audience DID get played, and very intentionally so.
we can not look in his head, but lets be real.Chances are he would never get another " heterosexual" role if he went along with it full force or spoke out in favour of it. Or he is the world greatest actor that hide the disgust while acting.
@@dianamijde5543 being typecasted based on being gay is not a thing..... unless u are actually a gay man and only want to be that
This is great, but I would not classify what misha did as baiting because misha stands for truth, especially when it comes to politics and representation. I think he saw what writers and the showrunners were doing and how that made the fans feel and kinda of tried to counteract and give some validity to us. At some point, I think even he wanted destiel canon and thought the writer might even do the right thing even if it was unlikely.
To be fair, sidelining someone for half a season (or sometimes several seasons) is a problem all around with Supernatural. These guys brought back Mary and she first avoided them like the plague and then she ended up in a parallell universe for a whole damn season. I don't know if it's the network being stingy or someone just loathing the thought of the brothers having anyone else in their lived that much, but there's clearly a pattern of besties and found family popping up every other season and saying they are rather than getting proper development. That said, making Bobby flirt with every middle aged woman in the multiverse is very telling when they won't go near the one ship that everyone and their dog is onboard with.
Slight tangent, did anyone else get annoyed a at Cas' final speech? Dean Winchester as the most loving person ever, really? Considering from the obvious homophobia in pretending it never happened afterward and the horrible quality of the last few seasons, I do wonder how many minutes was spent writing that scene. Did they throw it in at the last minute or was it the usual prioritizing contrivance over character? It would have been nice if, after bringing him back and all was said and done, someone got to make fun of Cas for that. Preferrably Eileen.
It was part of a death speech Cas did in like season 10 when he got stabbed. They copypasta'd it and added the "loving man on earth" bit to make it more original.
@@foolwithtoomanynames back in season 10 it would have made a bit more sense, to be honest. Back before Dean kept treating Cas' kid like shit
I stuck with this show for 8 years, once I started watching in season 7. Ever since the series finale, I have not watched a single episode, and I am unsure that I ever will again. Beyond the textbook that could be written about Dean, Cas, and queerbaiting, there's the fact that the series finale destroyed everything the show was about, in a final act of abuse directed at the fans.
why didn't we get to see these two men who are in love have a happy ending. i just keep coming back to this question over and over. as you said, best love story on tv
Thanks for the vid. I think it’s poetic that Cas as their guardian was never “supposed” to happen either, at least not for so long. And it made sense for them to become close after all the kept sacrificing for each other. A lot of the time I believed the show was framed/coded as you said. (Edited for typo.)
Misha has actually stated that he intentionally played Castiel as being totally enamoured with Dean from the very beginning.
It's interesting to see how/why it happened, but I was hoping for more specific instances to show people. Most people who aren't LGBT+ didn't pick up on it, a highlight reel of jokes, romance, tension, etc. would be helpful to show them.
I didn't pick up on it on my own, but once it's shown to you, it's pretty plain to see, I think. There was an entire episode in Season 10, I believe, on the subtext of the show in the school play.
Media Buzzkill did a couple of longer videos on the subject that goes a little more in-depth on the evolution of Destiel, and the series finale.
I consider myself straight and I picked up on it immediately. Those long eye fucks gave it away. The chemistry between Misha and Jensen is hard to miss.
" Most people who aren't LGBT+ didn't pick up on it," i agree my straight mother, watched the show and flat out told me they were completely platonic, me a queer person, noticed every lil gay thing i could find.
Really good break down ! Very explanatory. I feel like I could show this to someone who’s never seen supernatural and they’d get the gist
I'm glad that writer's strike happened and they introduced castiel to supernatural.
Misha didn't bait. Look at the gag reels for who baited and is now acting like nothing happened. Jensen Ackles is happy to take awards for Destiel chemistry, just not questions. The whole drama was unnecessary if the cast had talked straight. Jensen Ackles came across as extremely homophobic. Worse, fans fell for it and painted it like he's the only person ever to get shipped and that's abusive. Questions about relationships happen on panels all the time.
And Dean-Cas relationship too is rarely about Dean being vulnerable to or respecting Cas. Ackles simply doesn't have it in him to play vulnerability convincingly. One of the reasons I'm happy it tanked, because gay or not, that wasn't love so much as Castiel giving and Dean taking and trashing. Was a promo for an unhealthy, abusive relationship. The Dean character simply did not have a growth arc. His portrayal barely evolved in 15 years. New thing, lash out, hurt people close to him, realize it was wrong, never do a proper apology, learn fro it briefly, forget what he's learned in time for next season. Rinse, repeat.
Third episode from the end, he STILL doesn't have it in him to respond to Cas. Never mind reciprocating, but if he was a good friend as claimed, surely there's a functional way to respond to a friend coming out of the closet and declaring love than staring with a non-answer and watching as he dies. But then, NONE of the people who help the brothers do well. What they did with Crowley, Death, etc is also a crime. All of whom were older, rarely appreciated, used, given the middle finger.
Show is more like a video game with two characters who can do whatever they want and don't owe anybody anything.
Yeah I really wished that the show tried to evolve dean like they did during the kripke era but nope dabb decided to rinse and repeat with him and sam
the dean / cass relationship is ridiculous to me because you're right. its rarely about dean being vulnerable to or respecting Cas. pairing dean with anyone is unthinkable. i felt he was just too much of a hypocritical scary jerk. anytime he'd have man tears or act upset, id think, finally hes hurting like he makes others hurt. Good. Dean might have a moment of ‘’caring’’ in a script but it just doesn’t resonate with me. Dean is too often cold, aggressive and unapologetic and unchanging.
Jensen is not homophobic because he simply didn't want to be portrayed as or taken as gay. God forbid a man wants to stick to his characters original identity.
I find it funny that's mostly young white women that are so up in arms about this whole destiel thing, y'all need to stop fetishizing young men and touch some grass.
@@samithonjames370 Well, you're wrong about the young and white. Doesn't leave much optimism for the rest.
I don't care if this is unpopular. The writers were never going to go full Destiel, they just weren't. And my little shipper heart was never going to stop believing in them. So at the very least, I am glad we got what we got, and if I had to choose between absolutely nothing and Destiel breadcrumbs, I'ma eat the crumbs every time.
I really enjoy writing long, complex, philosophical comments with nuanced analysis just to have them summarily deleted. It makes me feel great.
Been there. You know what you should do? Write the whole thing, copy it, and then post it in parts. Like the first post should be (1/total number of parts). The rest of the posts can be posted in the replies.
Did you include the word queer without censoring it ? Until very recently RUclips used to automatically flag comments that included that word
@@redactedredacted6656 No, I am hesitant to use that word as an outsider. Although I would argue that it's not quite used in the same way as the N-word, so I'm not sure treating it that way will hold up over time.
An excellent video essay. This show just makes me want to make a fanfic series that basically just makes Destial canon.
I mean it worked. I knew what was going to happen in the end, but I still watched the show because of Destiel (I wasn't actually planning to watch the whole thing, but I watched the first episode and was like "Oh no, I like it, why must I like it?"). Anyway, I'm maybe not the best person to say this, because I never had hope since I knew what was going to happen, but I honestly don't find it to be Misha's fault, I think he genuinely wanted the ship to happen, and it was probably validating to a lot of the fans to hear someone from the cast say they ship it.
This is a really amazing and approachable video essay that was truly needed because it is so difficult to explain the "culture" and "inside lore" to people who have not been obsessively following Supernatural both on the screen but even more prominently behind the scenes. There's just so much to take from in terms of sources and interviews and a whole entire probably documented history that spans fifteen full years that even I, someone who has been in the fandom that long, have trouble finding. And while I agree with everything you say here, and even with the statement that Misha did contribute to queerbaiting, I still feel like there's a huge difference with who really had the power to make or break the queerbaiting.
This is wholly just my personal opinion, based on remarks and in some quantity even rumours and my experience with the fandom and the way the fandom was approached mainly by the actors, but I believe that while the showrunners and more broadly TPTB did absolutely do things on purpose and with the intent to never make true on the promises they were making on-screen, Misha had a very different role. He was never in a position where he could actually have his opinions listened to when it came to the making of the show, we know that because Jensen himself in the end had no say in how the story closed. What I do honestly think happened was that Misha thought that by validating the wishes and desires of the viewers who wanted for Destiel to be a thing in canon and Dean to be confirmed bisexual he was rallying them up to a point where they would be listened to by the writers. There's no question that the only reason Supernatural continued for 15 seasons as opposed to the 5 it was supposed to is the support and the noise that the fandom made, so it wouldn't be such a far fetched idea to think that by "riling up" the Destiel fans they would have the power to actually demand and GET Destiel canonically and openly on screen as they did manage to do when continuing the show came into question. Now, at the same time, I also do think that in some ways the approach that Misha had was short-sighted and a little bit - I don't wanna say superficial, but not entirely informed at the very least. He could and did, just as TPTB could and did, come in contact with the broader conversation being had in fandom about representation and interpretation but in the end, I think he didn't completely understand where that was coming from, not fully. And I say that in reference in particular to the way he initially talked about the Bury Your Gays trope and later had the conversation again and stated that he didn't think that was the case for Castiel's storyline. This is all a very long-winded way to say that I don't think Misha should be put on the same level as the showrunners and the network when it comes to blame.
Still, great work on the video essay regardless, I just think it's an interesting conversation to be had. ♥
not always from a "growing female audience dispised due to internalized misogyny" ....for some of us it was more about objectifying women solely for male gaze...flat characters with nothing but sex appeal....
i'd honestly enjoy this too just for all these destiel clips
This was an excellent video essay, I hit subscribe not even halfway through. Now I need to binge all your other videos lol seriously, this was great
Thank you and welcome aboard!
I will always love this show. But another thing I noticed that is a bit concerning is that black characters are usually villains. Though I really doubt this was done consciously.
I can't believe you specifically talked about representation in the 90s and didn't talk about Xena....
I didn't make that segment too long, because I mostly wanted to talk about Supernatural, but thank you for the recommendation. I think that I will definitely be making a video about representation in the earlier decades, where Xena will be heavily featured.
Castiel actually died fewer times then Dean did.
The cast at cons in the last few years have talked about revisiting with a short series or film. I think it's great that they're looking to bring us more - but not if they're going to ignore this relationship. Like others have said, Misha agreed with fans that there was something there for Cas, but Jensen seems (seemed? Did he change his mind at any point?) vehemently against the idea. For the fans, there would be absolutely no point in bringing the series back and not resolving Destiel, right?!
I won't argue that the occasional subtext was not a cold manipulation by the show to keep both queer people and certain types of straight women hooked because I was not 'in the room'.
But what I can say is:
(1) I never saw Dean as anything but so completely straight, he wouldn't even be able to stretch to 'If It's You, It's Okay'
(2) I always assumed if Castiel found a 'forever love', as an angel, he would be attracted to a person's soul, so gender wouldn't even be a consideration
(3) I saw Dean and Castiel grow to become intimate friends and brothers-in-arms... who weren't very good at it due to their backgrounds which created lots of tension and drama
(4) my impression of the occasional romantic framing was a way to highlight their deep intimacy in a light manner to balance the tension and drama, not mean-spirited mockery of same-sex romantic/sexual relationships
Just because two men, or two people of any gender for that matter, develop an intensely close emotional relationship does not equal hot for each other. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.
👏
Thank you for this, at least someone has sense. You sir renewed my hope in the human race.
@@AbdullahIbnAbdullah-pk1kf Not a sir but thank you!
Amazing video!!
Thank you. 😊
Thanks for the vid! Very well thought out arguments. When you got to the “gaslighting” part, I grinned like an idiot. Many fans watch the show, some of it, if not all of it, with the parents who tell them that they take them as a couple already. The label you used for what the writers or show-runners, etc., did was “gaslighting” indeed.
Thank you so much for this videoooo
What you said is so true castiel is my favorite character on the show I which they took it all the way misha and Jenson have amazing chemistry 😻💝💖💗💓🌈😊🤠😘
I think the biggest love story in Supernatural is the love between Sam and Dean, and no I don’t mean incest or homosexuality.
I also do t think Dean or Castiel were meant to be gay. Dean is very obviously straight. I believe the story showed that angels really don’t recognize male or female. They are higher and different beings with different forms than humans and to them love is love without reference to male or female. Of course being in human bodies, they get more human sexual urges. That’s my theory and I’m sticking to it.
im genuinely asking how you think dean is straight? im just confused
@@alex-xx9xm I can watch the series all the way through about four or five times and never once did I see Dean do anything that looks like it’s anything other than heterosexual and considered cast a good friend or a brother. Even when Cass confessed he loved him. Dean had a sad look on his face that said, “Aww I’m sorry Buddy.”
@@alex-xx9xm And that’s the last time saying on it. Everyone can think what they want. It’s a TV show and it doesn’t really matter in the scheme of things.
@@alex-xx9xm did you ever see one movement or word spoken by Dean that was other than straight? I’ve watched series thru at least 5 or 6 times and never seen or heard anything from Dean that would indicate anything but straight. In fact, when Cass declares his love Dean gives him a sad look that says “Aww man that too bad”. I think Dean loves Cass like a brother and Cass being an Angel doesn’t seem to really see the difference in men and women, but being in a human body he longs for human love and he loves Dean. I’m not anti gay or bi, just addicted to the truth.
The other thing is that the show was never about romantic relationships. Sure, those elements existed, but the overall core of the show was familial bonds and how far you would go for the people you cared about. Believe it or not, it is possible for two men to have an incredible bond and not have it be secret homosexual feelings. My best friend to this day is someone I don't even call a friend anymore, to me he is my brother and in some cases I probably have a stronger bond with him than I do my actual brother. We both watched this show together and, to this day, quote it to one another. Shockingly, we are both straight, married, and have kids. And no, we don't harbor homesexual feelings for one another, and no, we are not homophobic. I have no issue with gay characters in TV shows or movies, but that kind of has to be established. You can't retroactively change it, just because some fans want it and wish for it. The reverse would also be insulting. You wouldn't argue for an established gay character to be forced into a heterosexual relationship with a friend because some fans think it works. You know what's a great show that doesn't shy away from homosexual relationships, Spartacus. That show is both hyper masculin and action filled while also establishing great romantic bonds and familial bonds, specifically brotherly bonds formed through shared experiences. It's full of both heterosexual and homosexual relationships, and people are not batting an eye about it, and it's just an amazing show from start to finish. And it's quotable as hell, just endless and hilarious phrases and terms. Anyway, to go back to my point, Cas and Dean are family. Cas is the brother Dean chose. Of course Cas loves him. Also, no one mentions this, but Cas loved humanity, and Dean is literally his avatar for humanity. I can understand reading into it and especially if the writers were indeed baiting, which I don't know maybe they were, but to me I always saw it as the two had bonded through their shared experiences. That's why I always related so heavily to this show and the main characters and their bonds to one another. Be it Sam and Dean to Bobby as another father. Or Dean and Cas as brothers. I literally have relationships like that. My best friend who is a brother to me and I to him. Aunts and uncles who have no blood relation to me but helped raise me. My best friend's mom, who I just call mom, cause thats how important they are to me. He does the same with my mom, that's how tight our bond is. And we are both godfathers to each others kids. Anyway, sorry for this suoer long-winded rant.
Counter example: the "My Immortal" web series. Highly recommend it.
I have a question: how is not wanting a guy character to be in a relationship internalized misogyny? Thank you in advance for the explanation.
The ladies who like the show didn't like that the fictional men would be in relationships because they would get territorial over the characters/actors. Hate pages were made to harass female cast and talk about how much their characters sucked.
@@foolwithtoomanynames Thank you! Yup, that's definitely going overboard.
Well from where i see it, Misha is just trying to do his job right and being polite to their fans...
Me: *queues up four video essays about queer baiting back to back* happy pride month (/lh)
somehow Jensen seemed against destiel and sort of never spoke up about it in the initial seasons of the show at comic cons or conventions, but after the show ended he has openly talked about the ending and how dean would have regrets of not saving Cas. So Jensen's stance on this is just a little confusing to me, because how do you go from being accused of being homophobic to supporting the ship and signing fanarts? A lot of people speculate that there is a NDA which the cast signed and stuff so idk
I always felt that the show always boiled down to family not relationships. Dean and Cas couldn't be in a relationship because they are family.. maybe not blood but, he was as close as Bobby to the brothers..
Lol for me I never noticed because stuff like till I kinda have the same reactions as dean 😂😂 but I ain’t know this was a thing
Omg you are so right! I for one didn’t believe that there was DESTIEl! But now I believe that it was true! I had never looked at it that way but you have made a compelling argument of that! I for one have always loved their relationship, but now I see it in a different light!! Thanks for that! You have truly enlightened me!! Keep up the good work!💚💜♥️😘
Gay here - it’s homophobic if it makes me feel despised.
Depictions of repressed longing can be homophobic if there’s value judgements. Didn’t happen here.
Never felt despised with Supernatural arcs.
Maybe it’s cause I’m salty when writers see two characters who have great chemistry and decide to make them romantic. I have no problem with it but I’m a sucker for a slow burns, so watching the show I just saw two close friends who were like brothers. Nothing romantic. I wish if they were going to have have the relationship/confession they would’ve done it better than the finally.
I've been watching supernatural since it's first air date in 2005 back on the WB. Dean and Sam have been a huge influence in my life. That being said... I'm in shock of the stupidity most SN fans have when it comes to "Destiel". It's really sad to see how much humans reach the narrative to fit thir own lives. I dont believe Dean is gay. However, he may be curious. But the reaching most fans did to give life to the Destiel theory is sad. There's more evidence of Dean being straight or bi, than actually gay. Jensen, first, literally said he does not approve of that idea. And now that he doesn't want to offend his fans or fans of the show, he stays quiet about his opinion, people make it out to be that "Jensen came back around to that idea". You guys are delusional. First off, most of you have ZERO understanding of what LOVE truly even means. As most of you saw Dean and Cas relationship has a slow coming out relationship, I saw two best friends who love each other, NOT in a gay way. You can say I love you to your friend and not have sexual attachment. You can die for your friend and not want to fuck them. Not only that, Dean and Cas definitely shared some interesting moments, and yes some of them were acted gay on purpose for comedic affect. It literally blows my mind how blind most of you are to the understanding of what TRUE LOVE means.
NO GREATER LOVE THAN TO LAY YOUR LIFE DOWN FOR ANOTHER
It sounds like you keep switching from saying Destiel to Castiel. I was wondering if my hearing was playing tricks on me but then I switched on CC and it thinks you're switching also, at the same times I think I'm hearing you say Castiel.
I think misha carried a lot of the show lol
found this on reddit :3
What's your favorite season's of supernatural
In retrospect, my favorite seasons by far are seasons 4 and 5. Might be the nostalgia speaking, but I always find myself coming back to that storyline.
@@PopDropChannel for me season 4 and 5 season 8 and 11
@@cynthiaholmes5124 Season 11 is very good as well.
Season 8
I didnt really think they were gay, I did think Dean just didnt respect Cas and Cas was just always seeking his approval in later seasons but not attentionally written that way.
I can see it though.
This analysis is about destiel I know but I think even tho that’s the case you really should’ve went over the fact that they were queer baiting dean before cas was ever introduced. And the cast has looked at gay people as a joke and you can see that so much throughout the show that being gay is the peak of comedy to them and there’s a lot of subtext for dean being gay before cas ever hit the screen.
i agree
I sort of skipped around during seasons 1-3, so I can't really remember any gay subtext for Dean.
Where should I be looking?
THX.
@@susanmallet766 I don't know if you've already found some by now, but if you're still wondering one that immediately comes to mind for me is season 2 episode 11 (Playthings) where Dean says something like "The more troubling question is why do these people think we're gay?" and Sam responds with "You are pretty butch. They probably think you're overcompensating." The camera then lingers a bit on Dean reacting in a way that I don't know how to interpret besides someone who just heard an uncomfortable truth that they don't want to acknowledge.
If you are really interested in looking at gay/bisexual subtext for Dean outside of Destiel, Bob Wess made a Bisexuality Deep Dive video about Dean.
@@susanmallet766
Seasons 1-3 are great. You've missed a lot.
i do agree that misha baited the audience a LOT. especially at cons, gladly answering questions the rest of the cast, but most importantly jensen ackles wouldnt. it's very interesting how as fans we ask the right questions to the wrong people: why would misha collins or jensen ackles' opinions matter in the writing, progression, and development of deancas? they don't write the show. the finale as bad as it was, proved that the actor will perform according to the script they are given. some friendly discussion might take place beforehand, but ultimately, they will act as theyre told by the paper. i sincerely hope this serves as a lesson for future lgbt audiences, that if we want results and respect, we need to hold accountable writters and showrunners, not actors; and use our most powerful weapon, our numbers. there is strenght in the mass. they tried to kill off cas multiple times and had to always bring him back bc of audiences dropping the whole show. and that's basically how we kept him alive so long, let's never forget that.
About Misha's approach to the audience at Cons--
I've watched a LOT of the cons, in temporal order. 2009 (about 4th season) until 2023.
When the fandom/fanfic questions started to be asked of Misha, he was very reserved in his answers. He was just learning about what slash fic was and wincest, etc.
He cut his answers short, and sort of just did the "it's up to your interpretation" response.
During one con in about 2010, he got very quiet and watched the audience respond very negatively to a question that had been asked about Destiel (but not using that term). He was very careful to say that people were getting very upset about the question. He did acknowledge that the fandom ship did exist. But he got off the subject within a couple of sentences of that.
As time went on, and he had done more script reading and acting, he became more comfortable answering the destiel questions.
But mostly, for a while, he shifted to talking about how the attitudes expressed by fans during cons had evolved over time -- from near "boo"s and the sense that just by deigning to mention destiel or slash fic, he had cross a line (He mentioned being told that he could not discuss it at the cons); to more and more acceptance by the audience, as well as increasing numbers of questions as time went on.
Eventually, he came out as a destiel shipper in about 2014 with this youtube post (not at a con, private "tweet"?):
ruclips.net/video/gf-y8JdMzNs/видео.html
After that point, he was a lot freer in answering the quesitons.
But until just before season 15, he had no sense that the show would ever "go there."
So as far as I know, he never told the audience that it would become canon.
And what he called destiel canon after 15x18 was only on Castiel's side; it was not overtly reciprocated.
(Except in a Spanish dubbing)
Misha said that Cas was in love with Dean. I don't think Dean was in love with cas. But I'm not sure
I could argue a whole bunch of points but it’s not worth it. There are a lot of deluded people out there who scour the episodes for the most far reaching examples possible. Dean is straight, it’s literally that simple. It’s believable and works as unrequited love from Cas, but really excluding the episode 15x18, it could be purely platonic.
it breaks my heart thinking that they initially laughed over it. Are we a joke to you? (us lgbtq)
Misha never queerbaited. Misha wanted Destiel to happen. Jensen was the person who as an exec producer, put his foot down to say no to the storyline repeatedly when asked by writers. Jensen wanted Dean to be the ladies man stud of the show. He wasn't going to allow them to emasculate Dean.
But Jensen was all too happy to have Dean act like he was in love, because it got them ratings, and every weekend he was doing conventions with Jared, Misha, Marc, etal. and getting appearance fees, plus autos and pictures at $250 a piece. Jensen was/is more than happy to milk fans of $.
But Jensen also was downright rude to fans about Destiel. He flat out said at a convention that Destiel did not exist, and after that he banned all Destiel related questions at conventions. JENSEN was the me that created such a hostile environment at the conventions, he encouraged the Wincest fans to bully Destiel fans. it got so bad that once, a Wincest fan told convention organizers a Destiel fan threatened her, in order to get her banned from that and ALL future cons.
The same fans treated Misha like shit, and Jensen watched and did nothing. For example, at one convention, they had sold out of Jensen photo ops, so they would purchase Jensen /Misha photo ops and push Misha out of the photo, or to a point where he could easily be cropped out, all the while telling Jensen (in front of Misha) that they only really wanted his photo.
I was/am a HUGE Destiel fan. Was very big into the fandom, did GISHWHES, went to conventions, etc.. The things I could tell you.
That's why when Jensen and his fans talk about bi, gay, trans ppl in his current shows, I still publicly call Jensen out for his #nohomo attitude and treatment of Misha and the fans of that show that gave him his career, his brewery, etc.
I had to leave the show around season 6, when i was so suddenly sure that Castiel was going to die eventually, for real, because he's the aberration.
He's the catalyst that changed Dean from a STRAIGHT MAN to a bisexual, or demi, or just Castielsexual
He's the gay they can kill in themselves, in us, in Angels and Man and, with all our love and pleas for /their/ love, our love must die for the sake of things staying the same, forever
Although I am not a Destiel fan at all (more an Adam and Michale fan) I’m also a Ruby and Sam (don’t kill me)
I thought it was a good video
I liked Ruby and I think that Jared and Genevieve are a cute couple. Loved Eileen a lot as well, she was such a great character.
I love Destiel anyway
I had no idea supernatural fans were so insane. Shipping the brothers??? Hating on the female characters just because they didn't want the brothers to have romantic partners with women?????
Anna, who was supposed to be Dean's true love, was replaced by Castiel, the new husband 🤗 but destiel DID go canon!!! Esp Jared confirming the collette/Cain storyline was meant to parallel cas/Dean! And about 15.18, Misha said, "Dean was too stunned in the moment to reply." 🌈 he also said whatever happened after the finale was up to fans. But I think its pretty obvious that after Sam's arrival, Dean sought out Cas and they got married and lived happily ever after 💍😇 that'd be the only realistic ending.
the fact that i watched the show only for castiel and not even destiel and i honestly don’t think misha actually baited, i just think he was making fun of them
I still don't see why Castiel's proclamation of love for Dean in 15x18 is romantic. Multiple times throughout the show Castiel has proclaimed his love for Sam and Mary as well as Dean, does this mean that he's in love with every single Wincherster? Quick reminder, both Sam and Dean have told Castiel they consider him their brother and vice-verse and Mary has referred to Castiel as one of her boys, so where's the homoerotic stuff between Castiel and Dean? Because, honestly, I just don't see it.
You're just homophobic lmfao. Its so clear that his confession was not the same as his previous.
@@Vampiislay First of all I'm not homophobic at all so don't you accuse me of that. Second, what's so different about this love confession than the previous ones? Third, if anyone's homophobic thrn that's Jensen Ackles himself, he hates Destiel with the passion.
I do think Castiel loved Dean but it was in no way returned. Dean loved him as a brother. It’s pretty obvious that the angels being different beings with different forms don’t recognize male or female. I think to them love is love. Of course being in human form they did fall prey to human sexual urges.
@@Michelle-fh2dp lol no. Huge disagree. There’s so many signs Dean shows of his feelings. If you don’t want to believe it, don’t. But I personally see it and choose to believe he does love him that way.
@@Vampiislay There are no signs of Dean being romantically interested in Castiel because Jensen Ackles hates Destiel with passion and is adamant against it.
I hated when they randomly separated them for almost a season, even after dean said that cas is family. Sacrificing the concistency of the character to avoid making the show "too gay"
Castile?
3:54 no, no, don't put the blame on the audience. I'm sorry but the SPN authors were the misogynists who couldn't write a decent female character. They wrote 100+ Damsels in distress, they saw any female character as a sex provider, or sandwiches+sons provider. Remember Sam's blurry wife? That's how the authors saw women, not the audience. It was just normal for the audience to not be able to relate to those fermale characters; they were always just there for the sake of creating conflict between the 2 brothers: the SPN authors wrote this shit, not the audience.
They almost had an exception in Jo (she wasn't sexualized right away) and they managed to ruin it cause, they say, Dean saw her like a sister!? A Sister?! These authors have problems. They couldn't even contemplate the idea of a love relationship between a woman and a man that wasn't merely based on sex. In their world, emotional connection is possible between men only. Men are for love. Women are for sex (otherwise they're like sisters).
As someone who only found out about the show a month ago and binged the whole thing without any social media or input from othet people, i honestly have no idea how anyone can think it was possible for dean to be in a homosexual relationship, or cheapen the love of an angel towards the people he was keeping an eye on with sex, the love castiel showed sam and dean was beyond sex, it was pure love and admiration, untainted by physical attraction, thats what makes it such an epic love connection. I honestly dont see your point, perhaps the signals werent there, you just read into the story how you wanted to experience it. Its not a bad thing, everyond interprets art differently, but to go out and say they were baiting gay people to watch because what? You thought at some point dean would have sex with castiel? How could that ever happen with what we know of dean, he would never consent or even think of castiel in a sexual way, but that doesnt mean their love was unreal or not a large part of their relationship, i think it makes their love that much purer.
who here talked about sex? at all? you, the creator of the video never said anything about it. and no need to read into it cause its right in front of you.
as i get older i have learned that sexual love is cheap. sexual love fades and was never about anything but making babies or sex. it bothered me that dean treated cass like crap more then he gave a crap about him so all that love and sacrifice for cass fell flat for me. i never saw any homo eroticism or queer baiting either. dean is hypocritical, self righteous, unforgiving and itching to kill. very rules for thee but not for me. it would be easier to see cass having a deeper connection with sam because same is more patient, rational and forgiving. i'm open to your thoughts.
You dismiss the idea that supernatural baited their audience because you weren’t they when they were. They included subtext into the show purposefully because they were receiving strong fan reactions online. Maybe looking at the show now without any context of what the actors/writers use to say about that relationships makes it seem stupid but back when it was airing it was always being talked about in a baiting way.
So what you're saying is that Hollywood writers are saying that best friends are a thing of the past, you can't have a best friend anymore without having a romantic fling, that's what it sounds like you're saying and that you can't say I love you to your best friend (which is like a brother or sister to you or even like a mother or father) without happening a romantic interest there. that's just wrong even to think that way and shame on Hollywood writers for brainwashing fans to even suggest that. The relationship between Dean and Cass is like the relationship between Dean and Sam, there is a brotherly love there. so when Dean says to Sam that he loved him, it didn't mean that he wanted to bed him. People have got perverted minds anymore.
okay, same gendered people are allowed to be friends BUT, when theres so many "non-friendly" scenes, you can see that they could be something more. you can say i love you too a friend with it being completely platonic, but in destiels case when cas said it to dean, wasnt very platonic. dean and cas' relationship is NOTHING like sam and deans. no one is being a pervert other than you people saying that we want them (dean and cas) to sleep together when NONE of us have said that, (that i know of). we just simply wanted their love story to have a happy ending, not the tragic one we got.
@@alex-xx9xm actually all the destiel shippers say that. they whine and ask why all the straight couples are allowed to have kisses and wake up in bed onscreen. as for how tragic it was, get with the program. the show has always been tragic. the i love you at the end was there to simply get people talking for views. ratings and money you know. nothing said or implied ever indicated destiel.
Also do people not remember when Dean took Cass to a brothel or when he would cheer him for getting laid??
I honestly feel bad for writers of any show 😂 Like, if you have a heterosexual couple, people feel like the shows pushing traditional roles too much, if you have a homosexual couple, some people complain about gay relationships being pushed down their throats.
If you have any underlying might-be gay relationship that never gets, let‘s say, fulfilled, people get pissed off as well 😂
I am of the opinion that the show still belongs to the writers, directors, and cast. I think they can do what they want with any of their shows. I don‘t know, that‘s how I feel lol
Its a best friendship
This is a reach LOL
Due to internalized MISOGYNY? I'm sorry what... Who? the back ends of the back ends of some reddit corner..
Not E V E R Y T H I N G in this world has to be some internalized worldview you deem to be true, or homophobic because they make a joke, or that god forbid that darn patriarchy (kidding). But No. seriously, No one was going hmm, I don't want dean and sam to find love because of (sjw talking point here)
It was because they were usually evil characters, Or not part of the central story For that, the writers Wrote them in a way that you knew they would not stick around, People did however root for the women that we felt MIGHT stay, Like LIsa and dean, The one for sam was the deaf women who was brought back because people loved her and sam together... INTERNALIZED MISOGYNY .. Just because you walk out of gender studies or humanities class on day 3 doesn't mean you understand ANYTHING about how or why people are people.
_EDIT: lol I realize above and below are a little harsh, But It was my initial reaction, The tone isn't suppose to be serious but sarcastic and generally a laugh or giggle every other sentence hehe, never the less...._
_OH MY GOD I just realized you included women in that statement as the ones internalizing misogyny, Do you actually BELIEVE THIS_ _Do you hear it escape or lips, leave your mind, and think , yeah this is totally reality, News flash The majority of the world doesn't view everything through the lens of constant oppression, You will find many that come to THIS video or twitter mobs agree with you, your title will attract those on the side of the oppression angle for everyone, I'm the outlier because of curiosity, So I assume many will miss the point and hate reply haha, but you will also find that in the real world, Throwing those terms at strong normal women, is not going to fly, To TELL THEM why they feel and how to feel and that you know better than they do because it's internalized so they can't see it... This would be hilarious if it wasn't terrifying , sad, and infuriating that people no matter how small the group think this way._ What makes me angry about this, is you are telling women why they think what they think in the name of woke nonsense that doesn't work in the real world. We left those views long ago, and putting them in small things like how women watch a show is BRINGING THOSE VIEWS BACK. It helps no one, and breeds the hate that you don't want to exist anymore.
"Developing characters" "overall story arc" lol, have you _watched_ the show you're complaining about?
....what story doesn't have character development or overarching story arcs
@@jennilocke .... Supernatural. I mean... I thought that was clear
@@futurestoryteller supernatural sucks at telling its own story, yes, but there is character development and overarching storylines. I don't get why you're being so passive aggressive about a subpar tv show lol
I have, but I do think that the show had an issue with telling coherent stories and developing characters during multiple seasons and then abandoning the same character development for no reason.
@@jennilocke I don't see what's "passive" about it. The writing is horrible and I've no reservations about saying so. "Overall story arc" implies that the story has some kind of a point it's leading up to, I'd say the finale stands as a profound refutation of that idea. There's no real character development because there's nothing we learn about anybody of consequence that isn't apparent within a few episodes of their introduction. It's all fun to see Dean posessed by a Demon or Sam without his soul, it's got some worldbuilding elements too, but at the end of the day it's just a detour, like every other character trait the show might flirt with. The idea is to get back to the status quo. Most sitcoms don't have character development either, not really.
Also the Walking Dead, the Walking Dead had neither of those things, although I think it thinks it will have a point, since the show's philosophy of humanity seems to be doing a slow 180. And I saw an episode recently that had _actual character development_ - only took, what? Nine seasons!?
Finally someone acknowledgement that Misha Collins is as guilty for giving fans false hope and making them believe destiel would happen
People defending Misha 😬
To clarify. Yes, he was queerbating. As were the writers. I was very big into the fandom, followed every meet n greet and convention and going on outside the show. Misha CONSTANTLY fed into the fervor over destiel, making fans believe it would happen in a very irresponsible way. I have other major issues with him as well regarding his conduct with and in front of young fans but even setting that aside to argue that he didn’t participate in the queerbating is preposterous.
- sincerely, a bisexual former fan
@@CampingforCool41 people are very interested in exposing people for views these days lol do you actually have something to say or are you baiting people under this video? it is a tv show. the writing for the entire show was a total mess. misha is an actor, not a writer. he is doing his job. if pandering to the fans was something he was told not to do, he would not have done it. not interested in the fact that an actor lied to you lmfao.
Just friendship. God I wish people would not use my favorite show for their own agendas It's like guys can't love each other without being gay or related. Misha even tweeted 1st that it wasn't romantic. Then had to retweet the opposite. So.
Yeaaaaa this is where you’re wrong friend
Lol no conservatives never saw dean as a macho womanizer, We seen him as a dude with his faults, He wasn't a womanizer As far as identity goes, and Man are you skewed in your views on conservative audiences. We would rather seen dean as caring and didn't think he should be a womizer, but the cass and dean thing even the cast felt it would be weird, Weird because it was clear dean was straight, and if they were gonna do it, do it where It makes sense because dean actually felt that way from the start, But he did not, He was always straight, so if they got together and dean accepted, we would feel cheated because we would KNOW they just gave into what a small subset audience wants, not what other fans have been following and growing with the characters. _Hint , it had nothing to do with the fact that it would be a gay relationship_
Completely agree with this. Dean was written as start from the start. Everyone who has followed Supernatural from season 1 knows that.
So, your take is really fair. But I think the fact that you and I have such different interpretations shows that queerbaiting was a tactic they used, and arguably used well. Hear me out. There have been bi readings of Dean all the way back to season 1. It was an aspect that even some writers liked to publicly hint at. But they were subtle enough that most people picked up on them because they were also bi or queer. A really small example is the Purgatory joke Dean makes. This is absolutely not the most compelling piece of "proof" but I just think it's a good example of what queerbaiting is. Dean makes an offhand mention of a gay club in Miami which isn't something most straight men just know. Most audiences didn't notice this, but if you're queer in Miami, you literally hear that and tilt your head. That's the point of queerbaiting. So your take isn't wrong, neither is mine, that was what they were going for.
@@liveincidentaly4206 I completly understand your point, The way that I interpreted those scenes, and Yes I did notice them, Was that it was a running joke, not intended to insinuate anything but more like poking fun at the "suppose to be macho" guy, I think they made the gay club line obvious didn't they? Didn't sam or someone react to deans mention of the name in a like "are sure you know what you are saying right now buddy" kind of way. Idk. I don't know enough about queer baiting but I think if they were it happened after the jokes from season 1-5 were established and they said alright lets lean into this. I do believe that there was no intention in the beginning, that the jokes just landed how they landed, like the "cass get out of my a**" But at the same time All bets are off after season 1-5. After that I don't what they were trying to do for sure.
@@jsbaldo5556 100% agree that most early jokes were not intended to be read as anything more than humor. For this particular case, the gay club mention is actually totally breezed over in the scene (season 8). It's not mentioned that its a gay club, or played as a joke. It's literally an offhand comment that we only noticed because of people mentioning it online. Most people did not catch it or know what the reference was in real time. I personally think most of the early queerbaiting was more like fanservice and some gay is funny jokes. It was never anything serious. I think season 8 is when it becomes genuine.
I always saw it as more of a bromance than anything. I mean do people forget the episode where Dean took Cass to a brothel or when he cheered Cass for getting laid??
Not everything needs to be gay. Sorry.
Maybe but some shows on CW actually do have queer content please stay away from them if this is your attitude
Actually 😊
No..no
I'm going to thank Supernatural and I'm going heartily thank cw because not only we have years of some of the best programming and some of the worst cuz bugs LOL. We also got Roswell New Mexico 2019 and I am convinced that was an apology for Supernatural queerbaiting.
CW of their own volition put an entire show about aliens one of them a cowboy alien falls in love with a good little soldier g.i. Joe. Said Cowboy alien looks a lot like Jensen Ackles at least a little bit and I swear it's purpose) you know it took me an embarrassingly long time to get that.
Because I was sitting here and season 3 of Roswell New Mexico 2019 taking what the hell why does Michael look so much like Dean Winchester right there? It was a scene where he was talking to Alex and he was leaning over the edge of his truck and he sighed eyes and he's angry but for all the world all I could see was Dean Winchester.
The scene happens in the episode free your mind third season. It was a damn good show and I got to say no queerbaiting here since it is a gay couple. And the character Michael the one that looks like Jensen at least a little around the eyes. Well he actually is bisexual unlike Dean( Michael Guerin). And his love interest played by Tyler Blackburn who most of us knows played in Pretty Little Liars Caleb.. is gay(Alex Manes ).
Alex /Michael
ruclips.net/video/o2iZZDbQ6co/видео.html
Alex Manes
ruclips.net/video/N85nFgWfaDc/видео.html
Michael
ruclips.net/video/eUYBb6hEol0/видео.html
I will also point out while there's a lot of similarities between Michael and Dean one of them being that they're both bad asses. At least Michael and Alex get their gay wedding.
Alex and Michael seem to be both a lot like Dean.
Michael spent a lot of years trying to find and connect to his family. Because for him family with all that matters. He loves his mother a short. He got his mother back all the way to have her snatched away again it's brutal in both cases.
Alex spent years trying to appease his dad .Daddy's blunt instrument fits Alex (he tried so hard to what his father wanted him be. )That is so Dean and that is so Alex. Differences Jesse is in no way sympathetic unlike John in the monster dies Ie Jesse no- One Mourns him.( other than Alex and maybe his brothers).
Michael
ruclips.net/video/OH9pAMLBLxw/видео.html