Happy to see someone else understand the potential of Marksman. Another underrated unit is Tiger Shark with Ions Canons, Cydlics and Missile rack and 6 Seeker Missles. Turn 3 Fiesta.
Personally use 3 as a distraction carnefex, 210 pts to get my opponent to jump into my ambush feels great. And if they ignore them, also great cuz they can keep doing damage.
I like one in my Ret Cad list to sit up high on some back field terrain and guarantee spotters. Lone Ops are perfect for Ret Cad to bait people into range - I’ve been using two Ghostkeels for that job.
In a 1 or 2kpts game I'm not sure. If you go for a full 3 teams, it's kinda reliant on plentiful characters to shoot at. And I could field 2 Firewarrior squads with Fire blades to support them. In a 3k game. I might be tempted as a means of locking down one side of the board or character hunting. I've used snipers in Marine armies and the results have been, less than adequate. But hey. I don't get guided in Marines.
The list I've been working on is one that is allergic to my deployment zone. Almost everything can deploy outside the deployment zone, has deepstrike, or will gain scout from the Mont'ka enhancement. Probably not viable, but once I figured out it was possible, I went all in.
It just doesn't do enough consistent damage on its own. Even running your idea that's a massive investment to take out like a 90 point character if you're lucky you are lucky meanwhile to make the strategy work you've used CP end roughly 300 points and models make it work. And now you still have to deal with the unit was being led. I think the rifles need for sure another pip of AP to threaten Units. There's no reason a Space Marine scout Squad should have a better sniper rifle than T'au's dedicated snipers I don't need them to be on par with eliminators even if that would be nice but they should at least have similar output to sniper Scouts
The "Fires-tight" Marksman(sorry, could not help myself :)) is an interesting piece, since it is one of the few models available to the Tau with Precision. However, I find it bad for several reasons. 1) 70 pts. You pay premium for the Lone Op and Infiltration abilities, but lacks both damage and survivability for that cost. The damage is just weak when compared to something like a Farstalker unit(also 70 points) marking a unit with characters in it(you get lethal and precision when targeting that unit). Even a unit of Breachers with a Fireblade and various Mont'ka movement(about the same price as a Devilfish+2 Firesight Teams), will probably have a better chance of killing the enemy infantry support character, by simply wiping out the entire unit. 2) It can screen, but can also easily be destroyed by deep strikers or abilities that triggers without shooting(like the Vortex of Doom from a Greyknight Librarian). 3) They are characters. That means that they can use some of the enhancements(which will inflate their cost), but being a character also means that they can give your opponent points if they draw the right secondaries. 4) Performance is inconsistent and difficult to form a battleplan around. The low strength and AP means that very often, the crucial kill does not happen, meaning you have to try and wipe out the unit "the regular way". They do have some decent uses though. For one, they are a single model with a fairly small footprint, so it is easy to place them on top of a tall building or tower(if you can get 6" above your targets, you get an extra point of AP). This can give you great sightlines for spotting and makes it more difficult for deep strikers to get to them. If the Firesight Team takes the "2 nearby units gets Scout 6"-enhancement, you can deploy the Firesight Team close to the units you want to scout move with very little risk of having it being an easy or super expensive target(it is not exactly cheap, but it is still cheaper than a lone Commander in a suit the same stratagem, and it is harder to kill than a lone Ethereal). But I only really find it useful for the Scouting Mont'ka enhancement and the redeploy Kauyon enhancement. That said, if you already want an Ethereal in a defensive Firewarrior Strike Team, and its primary function is to activate the enhancement before the first battle round(both of the mentioned Enhancements do that), then you dont need the Firesight Team for that purpose anymore. What really holds it back though is the price point and its special ability. 70 pts is very pricey for what it brings on its own and the drawbacks involved, and its special ability tempts you to use your Guidance on a low damage unit in the hopes that it might snipe a character. If some of that was improved upon, then there would be a bit more incentive to use it.
I think what CMDR Nearsight said in vid holds true. It really depends on the army you are facing. I play my cousin a lot who plays Guard. If i bring 3 firesight and snipe his Ursula Creed ( launching free debuff idf to my units that dont even have to hit to debuff) or Leontis passing out 3 orders 24" with a vox caster and to a basalisk hammering my infantry, or hopefully both then that would be 210 points well spent because that just significantly reduced the lethality of his army. With oders, he hits on 2+ or 3+ most of the time and wounds about the same with ap buffs and Ursula's debuff.
@@theodore7313 I am fully aware that they "can" do it. And against factions with a lot of squishy support characters, they are not horribly bad or anything. But you have alternatives. What stops you from sending a Breacher team with a Cadre Fireblade into a devilfish, scout them up 6"(enhancement), auto-advance 6"(stratagem) for a total of 24" move, then deploy the breachers and annihilate the unit she is in? If she is hiding so far back that your Breachers cant get to her, then she could also hide behind a building so that your snipers cant target her. If deploying the snipers as screeners, the opponent's important characters deploy out of line of sight. They can still give orders afterall. And if you declare that your Firesights start in the Devilfish, the important characters just deploy in a way that makes it hard to get to them. Then the snipers lose their other utility(screening) for at least one turn, as they are stuck in the Devilfish. You do not have the same problem with the Breacherfish. They deploy more or less the same no matter what. If she tries to avoid them, they can potentially target something else and remain impactful. Again, it is not that they are completely useless. But their efficiency either require that you know what your opponent will bring, or that they effectively screen for the entire game, without getting picked off and granting your opponent easy points.
@fendelphi i see what you mean and i also agree that firesight needs a buff. Idk what kind but it definitely needs it. Maybe change infultrate to deep stike to position better on characters. Just spitballing here. Will GW ever change it? Probably not. GW would most likely legend it before they even thought of changing/buffing firesight, but one can hope ;)
@@theodore7313 There are several things that could be done. A price reduction would make it less "taxing" to pick it and use it, but not very interesting and does not fix its limitation. Changing its special rule to make it a better Observer with some sniping on the side would not be too bad. Or having an ability with some form of suppression. But personally, I hope it could join a unit of Pathfinders. In a unit of Pathfinders, it would lose its Lone Operative, and they would lose Scout(if they take the Recon Drone, they could still infiltrate), but you then have a character in a Pathfinder squad that can provide them with an enhancement. That could be quite interesting in both Kauyon and Mont'ka. Alternatively, just make it "better", so that it does the sniper role more reliably. Increase the Strength of the weapon to 6, give it Devastating Wounds and damage 3 on the weapon profile. Then it is fairly threatening to most characters and have decent support fire options against other targets. Or maybe just give it Rapid Fire 3(3 shots at 36" range, and 6 shots at 18" range) for a bit more risk/reward. I mean, it is technically a modified pulse rifle on Drones.
It annoys me that this guy is easy to take as a lone op and relatively available, but Changeling isn't even available to buy on eBay most days. (Sad TSons noises)
For me 70 points is just a bit too much. Its too close to units which give good infantry firepower such as breachers or pathfinders. One extra use of the Firesight marksmen is to have him carry the Strike Swiftly enhancement rather than a cadre fireblade so they can all start with their breachers in devilfishes. I did like the idea of them fitting inside a devilfish, one can even fit in a devilfish that already has a breacher squad and a cadre fireblade in it.
@@CommanderNearsight He's competing with giving Strike Swiftly to a Kroot Trial Shaper. The Trial shaper infiltrates with an attached farstalkers unit next to another farstalkers unit. He gives them both scout and then can redeploy both units after the roll to go first, then they can both scout to 3" from the enemy before moving 7" and then can shoot 42 shots (with precision if that is their nominated precision target). It depends on the updated points but it is self sufficient and puts out way more shots that the same points in firesight marksmen.
Probably not in Ret Cadre but I see them doing a good killing blow in Mont'ka. But if you wanted they could be a cheap objective holder in Ret Cadre and guide your battlesuits while being safe with his lone op
Sick video I personally just use him as a diversion I’m 100% gonna try that idea, by the way I’ve been saving up and I was wandering should I get a crisis suit commander or a broadside? Any help will be greatly appreciated
Let us know how it goes! And That depends on what the rest of your range is looking like. Do you already have an enforcer or coldstar? Do you have a lot of anti tank or do you need an extra railgun?
I think that a commander for your army would be the best addition currently. Everyone needs a flashy or stoic commander to lead their force. You can even make up for the lack of rail guns but using fusion blasters on your suits. But I would say a strong anti tank unit should come about sooner rather than later for a well rounded army. But first I think you need a good leader. And if you can try to find one discounted somewhere like ebay or I know amazon sells them at a discounted price but I digress. Makes it easier for you to save for the next thing!
The goal is to get even one nick of damage off on a character. From that point, any more Wounds coming their way (like from Breachers or ion rakers from Ghostkeels or what have you) HAVE to be allocated to the character until it dies. I agree that Firesight struggles to even get one wound off against anything greater than T5, but all it needs is to plink the character. Don't forget it is HEAVY, therefore gets +1 to hit if you deploy it aggressively. Your devilfish debarkation sounds fun, but don't forget that's 140 points and a CP you're trading for a CHANCE at strong precision.
@@frogramen2575 Appreciate the correction! I had been sniping wrong for this entire edition then XD the rule came up so infrequently I had never had it questioned since I have been severely lacking in proper Firesight firepower. So I have to thank Mr. Nearsight for at the very least inadvertently making me aware of this rule. That being said, I still probably won't be using the double sniper and pathfinder combo to drop a character.
Happy to see someone else understand the potential of Marksman. Another underrated unit is Tiger Shark with Ions Canons, Cydlics and Missile rack and 6 Seeker Missles. Turn 3 Fiesta.
Yeah 6 Seeker Missiles sounds spicy
Personally use 3 as a distraction carnefex, 210 pts to get my opponent to jump into my ambush feels great. And if they ignore them, also great cuz they can keep doing damage.
That would make a perfect distraction carnefex! Very well played
@@CommanderNearsight it's what I do. I'm just trying to be good AND annoying
I like one in my Ret Cad list to sit up high on some back field terrain and guarantee spotters. Lone Ops are perfect for Ret Cad to bait people into range - I’ve been using two Ghostkeels for that job.
Very smart
In a 1 or 2kpts game I'm not sure. If you go for a full 3 teams, it's kinda reliant on plentiful characters to shoot at. And I could field 2 Firewarrior squads with Fire blades to support them.
In a 3k game. I might be tempted as a means of locking down one side of the board or character hunting. I've used snipers in Marine armies and the results have been, less than adequate. But hey. I don't get guided in Marines.
Valid points
Give him Plunging Fire if possible.
I hadn't thought of that for the extra Ap to make the gun more effective
The list I've been working on is one that is allergic to my deployment zone. Almost everything can deploy outside the deployment zone, has deepstrike, or will gain scout from the Mont'ka enhancement. Probably not viable, but once I figured out it was possible, I went all in.
That is awesome! Hope it serves you well!
It just doesn't do enough consistent damage on its own. Even running your idea that's a massive investment to take out like a 90 point character if you're lucky you are lucky meanwhile to make the strategy work you've used CP end roughly 300 points and models make it work. And now you still have to deal with the unit was being led.
I think the rifles need for sure another pip of AP to threaten Units.
There's no reason a Space Marine scout Squad should have a better sniper rifle than T'au's dedicated snipers
I don't need them to be on par with eliminators even if that would be nice but they should at least have similar output to sniper Scouts
You've got a very valid point
Nice. The video I've been waiting for.
Happy you enjoyed!
seems good in a patient kayun list. think ill stick to ghostkeels for retailation cadre though
Oh yeah these guys couldn't compete well in retaliation cadre. Ghostkeels are better there all the way
You don't need to scout em they have infiltrate. Use them to screen board at start then move to kill a character. 😊
The "Fires-tight" Marksman(sorry, could not help myself :)) is an interesting piece, since it is one of the few models available to the Tau with Precision. However, I find it bad for several reasons.
1) 70 pts. You pay premium for the Lone Op and Infiltration abilities, but lacks both damage and survivability for that cost. The damage is just weak when compared to something like a Farstalker unit(also 70 points) marking a unit with characters in it(you get lethal and precision when targeting that unit). Even a unit of Breachers with a Fireblade and various Mont'ka movement(about the same price as a Devilfish+2 Firesight Teams), will probably have a better chance of killing the enemy infantry support character, by simply wiping out the entire unit.
2) It can screen, but can also easily be destroyed by deep strikers or abilities that triggers without shooting(like the Vortex of Doom from a Greyknight Librarian).
3) They are characters. That means that they can use some of the enhancements(which will inflate their cost), but being a character also means that they can give your opponent points if they draw the right secondaries.
4) Performance is inconsistent and difficult to form a battleplan around. The low strength and AP means that very often, the crucial kill does not happen, meaning you have to try and wipe out the unit "the regular way".
They do have some decent uses though. For one, they are a single model with a fairly small footprint, so it is easy to place them on top of a tall building or tower(if you can get 6" above your targets, you get an extra point of AP). This can give you great sightlines for spotting and makes it more difficult for deep strikers to get to them.
If the Firesight Team takes the "2 nearby units gets Scout 6"-enhancement, you can deploy the Firesight Team close to the units you want to scout move with very little risk of having it being an easy or super expensive target(it is not exactly cheap, but it is still cheaper than a lone Commander in a suit the same stratagem, and it is harder to kill than a lone Ethereal).
But I only really find it useful for the Scouting Mont'ka enhancement and the redeploy Kauyon enhancement.
That said, if you already want an Ethereal in a defensive Firewarrior Strike Team, and its primary function is to activate the enhancement before the first battle round(both of the mentioned Enhancements do that), then you dont need the Firesight Team for that purpose anymore.
What really holds it back though is the price point and its special ability. 70 pts is very pricey for what it brings on its own and the drawbacks involved, and its special ability tempts you to use your Guidance on a low damage unit in the hopes that it might snipe a character. If some of that was improved upon, then there would be a bit more incentive to use it.
You make some very valid points
I think what CMDR Nearsight said in vid holds true. It really depends on the army you are facing. I play my cousin a lot who plays Guard. If i bring 3 firesight and snipe his Ursula Creed ( launching free debuff idf to my units that dont even have to hit to debuff) or Leontis passing out 3 orders 24" with a vox caster and to a basalisk hammering my infantry, or hopefully both then that would be 210 points well spent because that just significantly reduced the lethality of his army. With oders, he hits on 2+ or 3+ most of the time and wounds about the same with ap buffs and Ursula's debuff.
@@theodore7313 I am fully aware that they "can" do it. And against factions with a lot of squishy support characters, they are not horribly bad or anything.
But you have alternatives.
What stops you from sending a Breacher team with a Cadre Fireblade into a devilfish, scout them up 6"(enhancement), auto-advance 6"(stratagem) for a total of 24" move, then deploy the breachers and annihilate the unit she is in?
If she is hiding so far back that your Breachers cant get to her, then she could also hide behind a building so that your snipers cant target her.
If deploying the snipers as screeners, the opponent's important characters deploy out of line of sight. They can still give orders afterall.
And if you declare that your Firesights start in the Devilfish, the important characters just deploy in a way that makes it hard to get to them.
Then the snipers lose their other utility(screening) for at least one turn, as they are stuck in the Devilfish.
You do not have the same problem with the Breacherfish. They deploy more or less the same no matter what. If she tries to avoid them, they can potentially target something else and remain impactful.
Again, it is not that they are completely useless. But their efficiency either require that you know what your opponent will bring, or that they effectively screen for the entire game, without getting picked off and granting your opponent easy points.
@fendelphi i see what you mean and i also agree that firesight needs a buff. Idk what kind but it definitely needs it. Maybe change infultrate to deep stike to position better on characters. Just spitballing here. Will GW ever change it? Probably not. GW would most likely legend it before they even thought of changing/buffing firesight, but one can hope ;)
@@theodore7313 There are several things that could be done.
A price reduction would make it less "taxing" to pick it and use it, but not very interesting and does not fix its limitation.
Changing its special rule to make it a better Observer with some sniping on the side would not be too bad.
Or having an ability with some form of suppression.
But personally, I hope it could join a unit of Pathfinders.
In a unit of Pathfinders, it would lose its Lone Operative, and they would lose Scout(if they take the Recon Drone, they could still infiltrate), but you then have a character in a Pathfinder squad that can provide them with an enhancement. That could be quite interesting in both Kauyon and Mont'ka.
Alternatively, just make it "better", so that it does the sniper role more reliably. Increase the Strength of the weapon to 6, give it Devastating Wounds and damage 3 on the weapon profile. Then it is fairly threatening to most characters and have decent support fire options against other targets.
Or maybe just give it Rapid Fire 3(3 shots at 36" range, and 6 shots at 18" range) for a bit more risk/reward. I mean, it is technically a modified pulse rifle on Drones.
It annoys me that this guy is easy to take as a lone op and relatively available, but Changeling isn't even available to buy on eBay most days.
(Sad TSons noises)
My condolences
For me 70 points is just a bit too much. Its too close to units which give good infantry firepower such as breachers or pathfinders.
One extra use of the Firesight marksmen is to have him carry the Strike Swiftly enhancement rather than a cadre fireblade so they can all start with their breachers in devilfishes.
I did like the idea of them fitting inside a devilfish, one can even fit in a devilfish that already has a breacher squad and a cadre fireblade in it.
I do like the idea of giving him the Strike Swiftly. Wonder if he could give himself scout while he's forward deployed
@@CommanderNearsight He's competing with giving Strike Swiftly to a Kroot Trial Shaper. The Trial shaper infiltrates with an attached farstalkers unit next to another farstalkers unit. He gives them both scout and then can redeploy both units after the roll to go first, then they can both scout to 3" from the enemy before moving 7" and then can shoot 42 shots (with precision if that is their nominated precision target). It depends on the updated points but it is self sufficient and puts out way more shots that the same points in firesight marksmen.
Great job!!! :)
Thank you! :)
ok its intresting in Montka, i don't think it would see play in Ret Cadre though
Probably not in Ret Cadre but I see them doing a good killing blow in Mont'ka. But if you wanted they could be a cheap objective holder in Ret Cadre and guide your battlesuits while being safe with his lone op
@@CommanderNearsight i kinda use darkstrider or the ghost keel or give a wounded riptide a 'break' there
Sick video I personally just use him as a diversion I’m 100% gonna try that idea, by the way I’ve been saving up and I was wandering should I get a crisis suit commander or a broadside? Any help will be greatly appreciated
Let us know how it goes! And That depends on what the rest of your range is looking like. Do you already have an enforcer or coldstar? Do you have a lot of anti tank or do you need an extra railgun?
@@CommanderNearsight I will thanks by the way I’m still collecting I have no crisis commanders and the only rail guns I have currently are rail rifles
I think that a commander for your army would be the best addition currently. Everyone needs a flashy or stoic commander to lead their force. You can even make up for the lack of rail guns but using fusion blasters on your suits. But I would say a strong anti tank unit should come about sooner rather than later for a well rounded army. But first I think you need a good leader. And if you can try to find one discounted somewhere like ebay or I know amazon sells them at a discounted price but I digress. Makes it easier for you to save for the next thing!
@@CommanderNearsight thanks
The goal is to get even one nick of damage off on a character. From that point, any more Wounds coming their way (like from Breachers or ion rakers from Ghostkeels or what have you) HAVE to be allocated to the character until it dies. I agree that Firesight struggles to even get one wound off against anything greater than T5, but all it needs is to plink the character. Don't forget it is HEAVY, therefore gets +1 to hit if you deploy it aggressively.
Your devilfish debarkation sounds fun, but don't forget that's 140 points and a CP you're trading for a CHANCE at strong precision.
Sadly, they made a rule for percision that specified that percision isn't the opponent allocating, so they don't have to continue allocating
Man that's rough. So over kill is the only kill as a sniper
@@frogramen2575 Appreciate the correction! I had been sniping wrong for this entire edition then XD the rule came up so infrequently I had never had it questioned since I have been severely lacking in proper Firesight firepower. So I have to thank Mr. Nearsight for at the very least inadvertently making me aware of this rule.
That being said, I still probably won't be using the double sniper and pathfinder combo to drop a character.
Yay first on both videos lol