Hmmm. (Head scratching sound) I tried your 130 gram charge at 390f BT on some PNG Arokara then drop to 50% heat after charge wait 30 seconds and then to 95%. Too hot , too fast for me at 119 volts I had FC at 4:00 dropped it and dumped it into the trash. Starting back at my under 320 BT charge with 200 grams
There could be a number of things at play giving you different results than what I got. First is a possible difference in our thermocouples, their placement in our machines, and how they are being read. Also, your charge temperature is partly dependent on the moisture of the beans. With drier beans, you want less heat at the beginning because water in the beans absorb thermal energy and if the beans are relatively dry, less heat energy is spent on boiling water and more is available to roast the beans sooner. Also, if you increase charge temp and decrease charge weight, you are affecting the initial momentum with two variables. For example, when comparing two different charge weights at the same charge temperature, the lighter charge weight will have more initial momentum because of the reduced mass of beans. When comparing two different charge temps with the same charge weight, the higher charge temp will have a greater, initial momentum. It's usually not recommended to translate exact temperatures from machine to machine as it's very difficult to get two machines that provide the same data in the same or similar situation. For your situation, what I would do is adjust your drop temp based on your situation, playing with different temperatures to see what gives you the best performance for your machine. But leave the charge weight, the beans, etc all the same so that you are only changing one variable at a time to see how that one variable affects the process. I hope this helps and let me know how it's going (I know this is a late response, so I'd be curious to see how you've done since!)
I don’t think RoR was the only reason why that happened. Have you measured the density of these beans after roasting them? even better, use any colour reader available to you. Colour (inside and outside) when grinding your coffee will have a bigger impact than the rest of the parameters here. Don’t get me wrong, RoR will be useful to tweak your roasts during the roasting session but really not that beneficial for after analysis in my opinion…
How significantly large are the teeth? If it isn't that big what you may be experiencing is just noise from how frequently your software pulls data. I'd imagine this guy in the video pulls data less often than you if that is the case.
In addition to Marvin's comment regarding polling frequency, I'll add that at the time I recorded these videos, I had a lot of "curve smoothing" configured in artisan. In Artisan, go to Config > Curves > Filters and you'll find some smoothing options to play with.
I haven't worked on this topic for a while. The conclusion I came to and wanted to share was that the RoR is very useful data to help control and analyze roast profiles and there is useful information we can glean from it while roasting and after the roast. I may return to this topic later but for now, my focus is elsewhere. Are you working with the RoR in your roasting and if so, what are you finding with it?
Thank you for answering. Yes, ROR is a good tool for me to anicipate what could happen next, but it is only one item. S. Rao makes a kind of secret how to avoid flick and crack of ROR. My focus now is mainly on energy control all over the roast. It seems to make little difference in beginning ROR when loading with higher or lower temperature, but it surely has impact on the result. Is creating a most evenly roasted coffee the utmost goal, or will it create rather boring results? What are the absolut limits for times and temperatures in the phases? And anyhow all is connected with ones tasting skills. And mine are not very highly developed. So I am still in a mode of try and see. It is hard to find a system.
@@erharddinges8855 With all things; practice, practice, practice. The more you deliberately taste coffee (and other food and drink) the better you will become at discerning various flavors and characteristics. The same goes for roasting. As you become more familiar with your machine and how to more-precisely control it, you will get better at determining what changes in your profile produced what changes in the cup. Also remember that roasting is not yet an exact science. Our typical home roast machines are relatively crude machines based on relatively old technology. We make a lot of inferences in what we think is going on inside the bean, etc, etc. All that to say be patient and forgiving with yourself. Experiment with your setup. I think your focus on energy control is a good place to focus. I'm always careful to talk in absolutes when talking about roasting, because roasting is not an exact science and there is so much 'wiggle room' in the process. Instead, I think in terms like this: 'I know that if I am running too hot too soon early in the roast, I will hit my benchmarks (such as first crack) sooner in my roast than if I was running cooler.' I know on my machine roughly where I need to be time + temperature wise to hit benchmarks relatively predictively. Then I cup the coffee and see what the results were. If I missed a benchmark but the coffee tastes good, then I can try to reproduce those results on the next batch. Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of science and precision to roasting. But there are also a lot of gaps where we can't define absolutes. To your question about evenly roasted beans being a goal; that depends on your ultimate goal for the flavor of the coffee. Unevenly roasted beans can impart flavor complexity and can produce a desirable quality in the cup. If that's your thing, then that is the right answer. Some roasters want consistency and a more even roast. That is the right answer for them. If you understand energy control for your machine and understand how you are roasting the entire bean (mostly from the outside to the inside) then you'll be better equipped to influence the final flavor of the cup through the roast. I hope that helps!
@@MichaelCWright very kind and encouraging statement from you, at first I will put my focus on sourcing better greens,and comparing with professional samples.
Another question: how can you demonstrate these camparing curves in ARTISAN? I did not find that. It would be cery helpful.
Great info, thanks for sharing. Got a good chuckle out of your 7 Days to Die browser tab, love that game.
touchnova well spotted!
Dear mr Michael, how to compare multiple roasting curve in artisan? can you share the steps? thankyou
I also would like to know how to set roasts side by side?
Hmmm. (Head scratching sound) I tried your 130 gram charge at 390f BT on some PNG Arokara then drop to 50% heat after charge wait 30 seconds and then to 95%. Too hot , too fast for me at 119 volts I had FC at 4:00 dropped it and dumped it into the trash. Starting back at my under 320 BT charge with 200 grams
There could be a number of things at play giving you different results than what I got. First is a possible difference in our thermocouples, their placement in our machines, and how they are being read. Also, your charge temperature is partly dependent on the moisture of the beans. With drier beans, you want less heat at the beginning because water in the beans absorb thermal energy and if the beans are relatively dry, less heat energy is spent on boiling water and more is available to roast the beans sooner.
Also, if you increase charge temp and decrease charge weight, you are affecting the initial momentum with two variables. For example, when comparing two different charge weights at the same charge temperature, the lighter charge weight will have more initial momentum because of the reduced mass of beans. When comparing two different charge temps with the same charge weight, the higher charge temp will have a greater, initial momentum.
It's usually not recommended to translate exact temperatures from machine to machine as it's very difficult to get two machines that provide the same data in the same or similar situation. For your situation, what I would do is adjust your drop temp based on your situation, playing with different temperatures to see what gives you the best performance for your machine. But leave the charge weight, the beans, etc all the same so that you are only changing one variable at a time to see how that one variable affects the process.
I hope this helps and let me know how it's going (I know this is a late response, so I'd be curious to see how you've done since!)
Thank you
I don’t think RoR was the only reason why that happened. Have you measured the density of these beans after roasting them? even better, use any colour reader available to you. Colour (inside and outside) when grinding your coffee will have a bigger impact than the rest of the parameters here. Don’t get me wrong, RoR will be useful to tweak your roasts during the roasting session but really not that beneficial for after analysis in my opinion…
Ok, so my ROR looks like a saw tooth, how to better control the ROR?
How significantly large are the teeth?
If it isn't that big what you may be experiencing is just noise from how frequently your software pulls data. I'd imagine this guy in the video pulls data less often than you if that is the case.
In addition to Marvin's comment regarding polling frequency, I'll add that at the time I recorded these videos, I had a lot of "curve smoothing" configured in artisan. In Artisan, go to Config > Curves > Filters and you'll find some smoothing options to play with.
Thanks guys, it’s taking me a short while yo go from gene cafe to hottop k+
Are your tests already finished? There are still some questions left?!
I haven't worked on this topic for a while. The conclusion I came to and wanted to share was that the RoR is very useful data to help control and analyze roast profiles and there is useful information we can glean from it while roasting and after the roast. I may return to this topic later but for now, my focus is elsewhere.
Are you working with the RoR in your roasting and if so, what are you finding with it?
Thank you for answering. Yes, ROR is a good tool for me to anicipate what could happen next, but it is only one item. S. Rao makes a kind of secret how to avoid flick and crack of ROR. My focus now is mainly on energy control all over the roast.
It seems to make little difference in beginning ROR when loading with higher or lower temperature, but it surely has impact on the result. Is creating a most evenly roasted coffee the utmost goal, or will it create rather boring results? What are the absolut limits for times and temperatures in the phases? And anyhow all is connected with ones tasting skills. And mine are not very highly developed. So I am still in a mode of try and see. It is hard to find a system.
@@erharddinges8855 With all things; practice, practice, practice. The more you deliberately taste coffee (and other food and drink) the better you will become at discerning various flavors and characteristics. The same goes for roasting. As you become more familiar with your machine and how to more-precisely control it, you will get better at determining what changes in your profile produced what changes in the cup.
Also remember that roasting is not yet an exact science. Our typical home roast machines are relatively crude machines based on relatively old technology. We make a lot of inferences in what we think is going on inside the bean, etc, etc. All that to say be patient and forgiving with yourself. Experiment with your setup. I think your focus on energy control is a good place to focus.
I'm always careful to talk in absolutes when talking about roasting, because roasting is not an exact science and there is so much 'wiggle room' in the process. Instead, I think in terms like this: 'I know that if I am running too hot too soon early in the roast, I will hit my benchmarks (such as first crack) sooner in my roast than if I was running cooler.' I know on my machine roughly where I need to be time + temperature wise to hit benchmarks relatively predictively. Then I cup the coffee and see what the results were. If I missed a benchmark but the coffee tastes good, then I can try to reproduce those results on the next batch.
Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of science and precision to roasting. But there are also a lot of gaps where we can't define absolutes.
To your question about evenly roasted beans being a goal; that depends on your ultimate goal for the flavor of the coffee. Unevenly roasted beans can impart flavor complexity and can produce a desirable quality in the cup. If that's your thing, then that is the right answer. Some roasters want consistency and a more even roast. That is the right answer for them. If you understand energy control for your machine and understand how you are roasting the entire bean (mostly from the outside to the inside) then you'll be better equipped to influence the final flavor of the cup through the roast.
I hope that helps!
@@MichaelCWright very kind and encouraging statement from you, at first I will put my focus on sourcing better greens,and comparing with professional samples.