For todays sponsor Paragon, do note that the actual price is $1 instead of the stated $2, beacuse of my automatically applied promo code. If youre intrested you should be sure to check out the Paragon TCG. Link in the description.
I am really sad to hear about your tier list video project getting blown up by a stream vod. I hope you can finish it and get all the views you deserve for your efforts. Its a massive undertaking and I greatly respect the work that you put into it. Best of luck to you in whatever your future holds.
i think the tier list videos are still quite successful, pretty much all of them have reached an audience beyond the subscribers of this channel, its maybe a bit too harsh to compare views to a channel 10x the size (i personally much prefer the in depth videos)
@@ConspoAlt as do I. I haven't played modern YGO in a long time but I still find the game fascinating to learn about and learning WHY and archetype is good or bad is way more interesting and important than just the knowledge that they are good or bad.
I feel bad about the tier list. Those videos are what brought me to your channel, and I know how much effort goes into them, which is the reason I respect your list so much.
@@goncaloferreira6429 Particularly the same usual suspects all over the Yugioh subreddit. Well, when you've got a billion dollar multinational corporation to defend, any lie will do.
@@grafzeppelin4069there is a big difference between Yugioh "rotation" and normal rotation. Yugioh rotation doesn't affect casual decks or decks that are good but not top tier. You can play your old meta deck from 2016 to official tournaments with adjustments from banlists and new card releases. You can't do that in normal rotation.
@@TrueScotsman96 Ugh, go back to the subreddit with that bullcrap. >Yugioh rotation doesn't affect casual decks or decks that are good but not top tier. False. The banlist EXPLICITLY targets "decks that are good but not top tier," if they're affordable. Furthermore, powercreep makes all old strategies unplayable. >You can play your old meta deck from 2016 to official tournaments with adjustments from banlists and new card releases. False. If it were true, then go win a YCS with only cards printed before 2017. You can't. You'll get destroyed. Current Yugioh is designed around hyper-expensive staple cards and overpowered archetypes that render old cards unplayable. >You can't do that in normal rotation. False. In Pokemon, if you want to play your rotated-out cards, then just play them. Literally nobody is stopping you from using rotated cards in casual play. Rotated-out cards in Pokemon are exactly as "playable" as powercrept & banned cards in Yugioh.
@@grafzeppelin4069 I didn't say you can win a YCS with those decks. I said you can legally bring them to competitive events. You are not likely to do well with your old deck but people do rarely top YCS events with decks that were played years ago. You can't bring old pokemon cards to current format Pokemon tournaments unlike yugioh. Take your passive aggressive nature somewhere else, especially since it seems you don't actually play yugioh.
My brother and I appreciated your tier list video, and are looking forward to the next installment in the series. We enjoy your take and video style. Also, best of luck with the job hunt, the market isn't doing so hot right now, but keep your head up, I'm in it with you :)
You know what's a big banlist, rotation. If you remove the word banlist and say cards removed from a games normal format then MTG and Pokemon have a ridiculous list compared to Konami. It's probably why Konami gets away with predatory banlists because they actually have to fight against design space limitations.
Except rotation ISN'T a banlist. A game with rotation is just a fundamentally different thing than one whose card pool just fills up with both obscene amounts of clutter and toxic, degenerate cards not designed for each other. A game with rotation can still have a banlist - Pokemon had 2 cards banned in Standard a few years ago. A game without rotation not only needs a banlist, but it creates a bad incentive for the game's owners to ban any old cards they can't make a profit off of anymore.
@@theswarmsquad3606 Because the banlist is primarily a profit-making tool, not a game balancing tool. Why would you ban new, expensive, meta-dominating Secret Rares that whales just spent hundreds of dollars on? No, what Konami does is: 1. print expensive meta cards, 2. let them dominate the game for about 3-9 months (longer for staples), 3. print stronger staples or archetypes to replace them (and signaling to whales it's time to offload the original cards at minimal loss), 4. give them a first reprint to lower their price slightly, 5. give them a big Mega Tin, Structure Deck, etc. reprint to make them actually affordable, 6. ban them immediately after. Top-tier meta decks usually only get very light hits, if any. "Problem" cards over about $10 a copy are generally safe from being (meaningfully) hit, and cards over $30 are practically immune from the banlist.
As a ritual beast player the Ulti Can hit was uncalled 4 and only happened bc we took a decade for combos…now we have longer combos so Ulti Can came back
Well there you go, your combos took too long. You can play to time and win there because combos can stall for time without being effectively punished for stalling.
well back during the format ritual beasts got banned current time rules weren't a thing. An in comparison to modern combo decks they're not actually that long.
@@MonkeyFightTCG but to my recollection, there were still time rules. Modern combo decks also have several years of new cards with extensive synergy to go off of as well.
This was an amazing video! I understand that can be disheartening when someone is able to make subpar content get more views (I’m in the very very early stages of making RUclips videos). I wouldn’t let that discourage you because you truly make amazing content and you hit a lot of strides. I’m in graduate school now and I hope your graduate school experience will be worthwhile and get you to where you need to go.
To me, the ban lists are needed to prevent games from being monotonous. Still, it does ruin investments to card collection and playability as cards you find might end up not allowed to play. That and it shows how the makers sometimes didn't think through of what they make. To me, one thing online card games have is that they can errata cards to change their power level (but that's already a different thing).
A banlist SHOULDN'T "ruin investments," and wanting to avoid "ruining people's investment" is a toxic mindset for the designers to have. Cards are fundamentally game pieces, not "investments." They are a durable consumable good, like a toaster or a computer. They should be cheap, like in Pokemon, so you can treat them as such. When cards rotate out in Pokemon, no one cries about their "investment being ruined," because they bought those cards to play, not sit on. If you want something to hold value, go buy stocks or bonds or gold, not playing cards. When cards rotate out, it's more bittersweet, and you get to reflect on all the play-value they got you. When cards are banned, it's more like getting your car stolen - it's sudden, unexpected, and feels terrible. And banlists aren't needed to stop a game from being monotonous - that's what rotation is for. More importantly, Yugioh is extremely monotonous despite having an extremely aggressive and constantly variant banlist.
8:00 Really cool breakdown of the ban lists here, man. The way you arrange the cards makes it really easy to understand what cards belong together (into their kind of problematic topic) and how much they were restricted. Really good job, man. (I'm only used to ban lists being presented the way they are written on the official websites.)
@SpeedyGz_ hey they changed the rules to nerf my yugioh pendulums 😂. No idea why I can't go all in as I please from my extra deck lol. Did bow out from mtg oko lol and outlaws of thunder junction he strikes again lol. Just got some discounted packs to make decks of (and modify 1v1 commander with 2 lands to relieve mana screw, and ban cheap staples like sol ring) and thankful we won't get another set of cancelled cards lol.
As someone who came back to LOR after a long break and found all my decks unplayable in standard I've realized why I like konami's banlist choices more. I'd rather work around having a piece or two hit than just not being able to play the deck in the slightest. Really hope everything starts looking up for you! Been loving the content since the first video i saw!
Completely agree, they may ban at a slower pace, but that pace can often lead to more effective bans that effectively nerf the strategy without killing it.
Hi! Right in this very moment every human being is somewhat "fine" but has to deal with major issues be it job wise or *Family* wise. What i want to say is: Youre a wondeful human being which puts a lot of effort into his work, so pls do not ever get heartbroken over failed job applications ot other youtube videos. If they dont want you then they clearly dont deserve you. Think like that and end of story. Sooner or later you will fina a job that YOU deserve. Just Do what you think is right and enjoy it to the fullest. Dont waste energy on thoughts of what other people think is right.
One of the biggest divides in terms of reasons for banning cards is: Hitting decks that are winning too much, vs. regulating and sculpting gameplay. As a contrived example, if a card had you roll a ten-sided die, and on 1-4 you win, and 5-10 you lose, that card is "fair" and even "bad", but it's horrible gameplay. For a concrete example, in Netrunner in 2018, the decks based around the console Zamba, plus the hardware GPI Net Tap (plus obviously Aumakua, and also Rubicon Switch) weren't very good. But they were everywhere on J Net. And if you stumbled even slightly against this deck, you lost on the spot, in a really frustrating and non-interactable way. It's the kind of deck where you say "if this were ever good, they'd have to ban something". But you can easily say "even though this isn't good, we should ban something for gameplay reasons". Lots of decks are "fair" but are just bad gameplay, and should be gotten rid of. But how much to do this is very controversial. I would plot card game ban-list ideology along two axes: One is how conservative you are when printing cards, how careful you are not to make stupid cards or way-too-powerful cards. The other is how liberal you are with banning cards. So you could imagine roughly putting games into different quadrants on a chart. (That's an exercise for the reader.) The more you want the game-developers to ban cards for gameplay and not power-level reasons, the more total bans you'll want. But the business incentives around TCGs work heavily in the other direction, and so in my view, almost no games have the courage to ban enough cards.
Personally I think bans for gameplay sake are often far too harsh because these sorts of strategies often have a lot of player hatred directed at them. Like I'm all for banning any and all generic floodgates, but it's when you get to archetypal cards that you really need to identify why the deck itself is so prevalent and hit it accordingly rather than just nuking the entire strategy with no regards for the decks' players. This also makes the banlist more reliable because it means that your strategy will never be shot out from under you after years of teambuilding and mechanical progression
Love your videos besides the tier lists, hope you can keep up! I think it's important to consolidate time and effort with expected output/revenue. Loved this video topic in particular.
As a someone who plays both (yugioh competitively and mtg casually) banlists are key. I just wish there was a world where (at least for konami) could communicate why they hit certain cards and even letting us know ahead of time what they have their eyes on. Ik that would hurt sales but it would be nice if we got more communication :(
Agreed, that being said it's still probably going to do well sales wise due to the IP and how easy it is for anyone that don't play TCG all that often to get into the game. The fact that I now have a game to play with my sisters and my mom of all people (She used to play MTG back when it was new) is good enough of a reason to like Lorcana.
14:20 This looked so scummy. Banning cards mostly to force people to buy new decks. On top of the extreme rarity of Nekroz, I left the TCG in 2015 because of that.
Cool video. I sure hope all the comments are about the actual video and discussing it so I can engage with the content of the video instead of just seeing pandering about sad news that doesn't invite any conversation.
One thing that bugs me about ban list is what I call Stolen Assets. Most common in archetypes focused series. When a card prefomes fine in its native environment, but is acquired and broken in another. At times like that I want synergy bans. Card A and Card B are banned from working together. Put one or the other in your deck, not both.
I just wanna point out the argument that rarran made: in any card game even with a resource system you cannot play the game if you do not have cards to play.
In a vacuum I'd prefer a game with only a banlist and no rotation since it means investing in cards would be less likely to blow up in your face because you won't have your entire strategy rotated out after X formats (staple reprints aside, it's obvious that set rotation literally forces you to buy more product.) But YGO's approach of generally hitting cards to make good decks weaker right in time for a new powercrept strategy to drop definitely means you're essentially playing with set rotation anyway and that it's usually better not to invest in any product until you've tested it in a simulator a bunch. Buying up copies of some obscure card because it might be really good in an upcoming release's format usually backfires on people (and tbh that's good, cuz scalpers are scum.) Master Duel is interesting because it's kind of like playing a format that's halfway between the TCG and the OCG, but it's on a time delay, so when they release new sets in MD you already know what'll be good. Like, sometimes people get surprised that a deck that was rogue in the OCG or TCG ends up being tiered in MD, but it's never a *big* surprise. It's like, oh yeah, of course Numerons are good in a Best of 1 format, or oh yeah, of course Spyral was decent at release because it was nearly at full power. But mostly it's just like "welp, might as well wait around until [insert archetype here] drops at full or near-full power" so you only ever crack open like every third or fourth set, with the exception of the time they released the Ishizu retrains and then the Tearlaments back-to-back. And you *know* those cards are gonna get hit to match the OCG or TCG banlist, so MD really is a set rotation format for the meta that also just randomly has legacy rogue decks lurking in the shadows, trying to steal games from you. Weird game. I still like it but it could be a lot better.
Except you've got it exactly backwards. BANLISTS make it so your "investment" can suddenly blow up in your face. ROTATION guarantees that you can play your cards longer.
Honestly, the fact that SPYRAL can just hang out in MD at full power is pretty hilarious. Like the deck ain't bad, but for how hard it's hit in the TCG, it really doesn't compare to the recent power creep we've had between Spright and Tear
Oh my god, as non Magic player, Bronze Tablet blew my mind LMAO. How is that ok? Thats the most unhinged effect ive ever seen! 😂 its literally gunpoint robbery in a card effect. What were they thinking?
There is a recent youtube video showing a big youtuber stealing small youtuber's idea. Not necessarily saying thats what the other streamer did about tier list. But both are just sad
Thank you for ur Tier Lists but if ur paying for the site ur wasting money if its just a very small png image of cards. Just put the actual names in text form. Easier to search especially for newer players like me. tnx
The process of making an effective banlist is honestly quite complicated and I don't think I've ever seen one that fully succeeds at what it sets out to do. I like the idea of releasing banlist changes in batches over a set time frame rather than just pumping them out whenever you need them because that can often give time for the meta to adapt to a problem and sometimes even solve it for you. The biggest problem I have with most banlists is when things get banned for reasons that are not directly tied to strength or balance. A lot of bans are done just because parts of the community find certain strategies annoying and I think that any action taken in these cases should be proportional to how powerful and generic the strategy is rather than just because people don't like it. Also, I think every banlist has at least one example of something being banned for far too long, which is a real shame when it happens
Ban lists shouldn't be made by the people that make the card game. Too much conflict of interest because they can use it to promote new products like they are in Yu-Gi-Oh!
I don't understand about other card games, because I only play this Yu-Gi-Oh. But I hate the ban list + powercreep in the same time. They already have more powerful cards (powercreep) as selling point, but why they still need to weaken older decks just to make sure the sell well. I don't know who is wrong here, player's mentality because they need crazy "power differences" to gain interest for new cards or the dev just want to force people to buy the new cards. This is very unhealthy for game balance and player's mentality.
The entire point of the Yugioh banlist is to target players exactly like you - "casuals," "budget players," or "semi-competitive" players. They want to hit older / cheaper decks to make sure that you can't effectively play the game without the new, expensive, Secret Rare staples & archetypes.
@@grafzeppelin4069 Not really? It can absolutely feel that way but it depends on the format. Yugioh has a stories history of extremely stupid design choice with newly introduced archetypes, which end up breaking the game and require manditory bannings next set (if konami isnt being moronic at the given time). To put this in perspective, theres a big dicotomy between the OCG (Japan and regions near it format) and the TCG (format for everyone else). OCG avoids banning and making certain decks unplayable, but as a consquence is more often plagued balancing mishaps and a significantly worse problem of broken staples. The TCG on the other hand cracks down hard on decks and cards that end up warping the balancing. Though they do it at varying speeds...meaning a deck could either be ran into the ground quickly because the TCG has a panic attack over an FTK, or they could decide to take their sweet time either out fo incompetance or to manipulate the format to be about certain archetypes for the sake of marketting a card storyline or something. Point is, yugioh's banlist sitiation is all over the place, and ban hammering HARD on a previous set's decks can be very much needed. Not saying this hasnt happened before though. The blue eyes worlds incident was a thing, where they dropped a ton of broken expensive blueeyes cards and banned all the other good stuff right before a worlds.
@@CatManThree Yeah, Konami has a very 'fix it later' sort of approach to card design where they don't often ask if they should increase the power level so much it just happens depending on the mechanics that the new deck is built around. Really feels like the banlist is constantly playing catchup, especially with how money driven the speed tends to be. Though TBF, they usually get there eventually and I can't wait for Tear and Spright to be hit enough to fall back in line with reasonable power level
@@CatManThree I mean, we only just hit Spright in Master Duel. I want Blue and Jet at one in the TCG so the deck can't extend through disruption as consistently
I hate that people keep confusing FIRE design with general power creep. FIRE design refers exclusively to the change in philosophy for designing commons and uncommons for limited, and anecdotally I'd say limited has been significantly better post-FIRE design. The playerbase uses FIRE design incorrectly and it's not good form.
Well according to wizards of the coasts own articles fire design also refers to how they handled mythics. It's also just that fire design was used for commons as well.
It's all about having formats where people can play whit the cards they own. When there is only 1 format a lot of your cards may become useless. Edit: Lmao no my man, Yu-Gi-Oh uses NO rotation whatsoever
For todays sponsor Paragon, do note that the actual price is $1 instead of the stated $2, beacuse of my automatically applied promo code.
If youre intrested you should be sure to check out the Paragon TCG. Link in the description.
I am really sad to hear about your tier list video project getting blown up by a stream vod. I hope you can finish it and get all the views you deserve for your efforts. Its a massive undertaking and I greatly respect the work that you put into it. Best of luck to you in whatever your future holds.
i think the tier list videos are still quite successful, pretty much all of them have reached an audience beyond the subscribers of this channel, its maybe a bit too harsh to compare views to a channel 10x the size
(i personally much prefer the in depth videos)
@@ConspoAlt as do I. I haven't played modern YGO in a long time but I still find the game fascinating to learn about and learning WHY and archetype is good or bad is way more interesting and important than just the knowledge that they are good or bad.
Your tier lists are peak yugioh content. I hope you get the views you deserve.
What Yugioh stream vod are you talking about?
I feel bad about the tier list. Those videos are what brought me to your channel, and I know how much effort goes into them, which is the reason I respect your list so much.
I really liked this video. And I'm happy you touched on the "pseudo rotation" approach Konami likes to use their banned lists for.
it is incredible how people still use the argument that yugioh doesnt have rotation .
@@goncaloferreira6429 Particularly the same usual suspects all over the Yugioh subreddit. Well, when you've got a billion dollar multinational corporation to defend, any lie will do.
@@grafzeppelin4069there is a big difference between Yugioh "rotation" and normal rotation. Yugioh rotation doesn't affect casual decks or decks that are good but not top tier. You can play your old meta deck from 2016 to official tournaments with adjustments from banlists and new card releases. You can't do that in normal rotation.
@@TrueScotsman96 Ugh, go back to the subreddit with that bullcrap.
>Yugioh rotation doesn't affect casual decks or decks that are good but not top tier.
False. The banlist EXPLICITLY targets "decks that are good but not top tier," if they're affordable. Furthermore, powercreep makes all old strategies unplayable.
>You can play your old meta deck from 2016 to official tournaments with adjustments from banlists and new card releases.
False. If it were true, then go win a YCS with only cards printed before 2017. You can't. You'll get destroyed. Current Yugioh is designed around hyper-expensive staple cards and overpowered archetypes that render old cards unplayable.
>You can't do that in normal rotation.
False. In Pokemon, if you want to play your rotated-out cards, then just play them. Literally nobody is stopping you from using rotated cards in casual play. Rotated-out cards in Pokemon are exactly as "playable" as powercrept & banned cards in Yugioh.
@@grafzeppelin4069 I didn't say you can win a YCS with those decks. I said you can legally bring them to competitive events. You are not likely to do well with your old deck but people do rarely top YCS events with decks that were played years ago. You can't bring old pokemon cards to current format Pokemon tournaments unlike yugioh. Take your passive aggressive nature somewhere else, especially since it seems you don't actually play yugioh.
My brother and I appreciated your tier list video, and are looking forward to the next installment in the series. We enjoy your take and video style. Also, best of luck with the job hunt, the market isn't doing so hot right now, but keep your head up, I'm in it with you :)
You know what's a big banlist, rotation.
If you remove the word banlist and say cards removed from a games normal format then MTG and Pokemon have a ridiculous list compared to Konami.
It's probably why Konami gets away with predatory banlists because they actually have to fight against design space limitations.
Except rotation ISN'T a banlist. A game with rotation is just a fundamentally different thing than one whose card pool just fills up with both obscene amounts of clutter and toxic, degenerate cards not designed for each other.
A game with rotation can still have a banlist - Pokemon had 2 cards banned in Standard a few years ago.
A game without rotation not only needs a banlist, but it creates a bad incentive for the game's owners to ban any old cards they can't make a profit off of anymore.
@@grafzeppelin4069why the fuck would you ban old cards that aren’t represented in play? That’s extremely counterintuitive.
@@theswarmsquad3606 Because the banlist is primarily a profit-making tool, not a game balancing tool. Why would you ban new, expensive, meta-dominating Secret Rares that whales just spent hundreds of dollars on?
No, what Konami does is:
1. print expensive meta cards,
2. let them dominate the game for about 3-9 months (longer for staples),
3. print stronger staples or archetypes to replace them (and signaling to whales it's time to offload the original cards at minimal loss),
4. give them a first reprint to lower their price slightly,
5. give them a big Mega Tin, Structure Deck, etc. reprint to make them actually affordable,
6. ban them immediately after.
Top-tier meta decks usually only get very light hits, if any. "Problem" cards over about $10 a copy are generally safe from being (meaningfully) hit, and cards over $30 are practically immune from the banlist.
I was in the same boat as you 5 years ago where I got my BA, couldn’t get a job and decided to get my Pharm.D. It’s rough, good look on the job hunt.
I didnt know it was even possible to make Fiber Jar worse until I read Shahrazad
As a ritual beast player the Ulti Can hit was uncalled 4 and only happened bc we took a decade for combos…now we have longer combos so Ulti Can came back
I also played the deck around that time and have very fond memories of it. It really sucked losing such a fun budget option.
Well there you go, your combos took too long. You can play to time and win there because combos can stall for time without being effectively punished for stalling.
well back during the format ritual beasts got banned current time rules weren't a thing. An in comparison to modern combo decks they're not actually that long.
@@MonkeyFightTCG but to my recollection, there were still time rules. Modern combo decks also have several years of new cards with extensive synergy to go off of as well.
This was an amazing video! I understand that can be disheartening when someone is able to make subpar content get more views (I’m in the very very early stages of making RUclips videos). I wouldn’t let that discourage you because you truly make amazing content and you hit a lot of strides. I’m in graduate school now and I hope your graduate school experience will be worthwhile and get you to where you need to go.
To me, the ban lists are needed to prevent games from being monotonous.
Still, it does ruin investments to card collection and playability as cards you find might end up not allowed to play. That and it shows how the makers sometimes didn't think through of what they make.
To me, one thing online card games have is that they can errata cards to change their power level (but that's already a different thing).
A banlist SHOULDN'T "ruin investments," and wanting to avoid "ruining people's investment" is a toxic mindset for the designers to have.
Cards are fundamentally game pieces, not "investments." They are a durable consumable good, like a toaster or a computer. They should be cheap, like in Pokemon, so you can treat them as such. When cards rotate out in Pokemon, no one cries about their "investment being ruined," because they bought those cards to play, not sit on. If you want something to hold value, go buy stocks or bonds or gold, not playing cards. When cards rotate out, it's more bittersweet, and you get to reflect on all the play-value they got you. When cards are banned, it's more like getting your car stolen - it's sudden, unexpected, and feels terrible.
And banlists aren't needed to stop a game from being monotonous - that's what rotation is for. More importantly, Yugioh is extremely monotonous despite having an extremely aggressive and constantly variant banlist.
good luck with the job hunting bro
8:00 Really cool breakdown of the ban lists here, man. The way you arrange the cards makes it really easy to understand what cards belong together (into their kind of problematic topic) and how much they were restricted. Really good job, man. (I'm only used to ban lists being presented the way they are written on the official websites.)
Ban lists always drop whenever I spend millions of dollars on a new deck smh.
That’s what u get for only buying broken cards
They look so cool tho :
@SpeedyGz_ hey they changed the rules to nerf my yugioh pendulums 😂. No idea why I can't go all in as I please from my extra deck lol.
Did bow out from mtg oko lol and outlaws of thunder junction he strikes again lol. Just got some discounted packs to make decks of (and modify 1v1 commander with 2 lands to relieve mana screw, and ban cheap staples like sol ring) and thankful we won't get another set of cancelled cards lol.
As someone who came back to LOR after a long break and found all my decks unplayable in standard I've realized why I like konami's banlist choices more. I'd rather work around having a piece or two hit than just not being able to play the deck in the slightest. Really hope everything starts looking up for you! Been loving the content since the first video i saw!
Completely agree, they may ban at a slower pace, but that pace can often lead to more effective bans that effectively nerf the strategy without killing it.
Hi! Right in this very moment every human being is somewhat "fine" but has to deal with major issues be it job wise or *Family* wise. What i want to say is: Youre a wondeful human being which puts a lot of effort into his work, so pls do not ever get heartbroken over failed job applications ot other youtube videos.
If they dont want you then they clearly dont deserve you. Think like that and end of story. Sooner or later you will fina a job that YOU deserve.
Just Do what you think is right and enjoy it to the fullest. Dont waste energy on thoughts of what other people think is right.
Good luck with your Masters 👍🏼
One of the biggest divides in terms of reasons for banning cards is: Hitting decks that are winning too much, vs. regulating and sculpting gameplay. As a contrived example, if a card had you roll a ten-sided die, and on 1-4 you win, and 5-10 you lose, that card is "fair" and even "bad", but it's horrible gameplay. For a concrete example, in Netrunner in 2018, the decks based around the console Zamba, plus the hardware GPI Net Tap (plus obviously Aumakua, and also Rubicon Switch) weren't very good. But they were everywhere on J Net. And if you stumbled even slightly against this deck, you lost on the spot, in a really frustrating and non-interactable way. It's the kind of deck where you say "if this were ever good, they'd have to ban something". But you can easily say "even though this isn't good, we should ban something for gameplay reasons". Lots of decks are "fair" but are just bad gameplay, and should be gotten rid of. But how much to do this is very controversial. I would plot card game ban-list ideology along two axes: One is how conservative you are when printing cards, how careful you are not to make stupid cards or way-too-powerful cards. The other is how liberal you are with banning cards. So you could imagine roughly putting games into different quadrants on a chart. (That's an exercise for the reader.) The more you want the game-developers to ban cards for gameplay and not power-level reasons, the more total bans you'll want. But the business incentives around TCGs work heavily in the other direction, and so in my view, almost no games have the courage to ban enough cards.
This is a well written perspective, thanks for the insight!
Personally I think bans for gameplay sake are often far too harsh because these sorts of strategies often have a lot of player hatred directed at them. Like I'm all for banning any and all generic floodgates, but it's when you get to archetypal cards that you really need to identify why the deck itself is so prevalent and hit it accordingly rather than just nuking the entire strategy with no regards for the decks' players. This also makes the banlist more reliable because it means that your strategy will never be shot out from under you after years of teambuilding and mechanical progression
Love your videos besides the tier lists, hope you can keep up! I think it's important to consolidate time and effort with expected output/revenue. Loved this video topic in particular.
As a someone who plays both (yugioh competitively and mtg casually) banlists are key. I just wish there was a world where (at least for konami) could communicate why they hit certain cards and even letting us know ahead of time what they have their eyes on. Ik that would hurt sales but it would be nice if we got more communication :(
Lorcana came out today (I think). What's your opinion so far?
Way better than my first thoughts, but still kinda weak as a game
Agreed, that being said it's still probably going to do well sales wise due to the IP and how easy it is for anyone that don't play TCG all that often to get into the game. The fact that I now have a game to play with my sisters and my mom of all people (She used to play MTG back when it was new) is good enough of a reason to like Lorcana.
To sell you the new cards, duh
Always good to see a new video!
14:20 This looked so scummy. Banning cards mostly to force people to buy new decks. On top of the extreme rarity of Nekroz, I left the TCG in 2015 because of that.
Cool video. I sure hope all the comments are about the actual video and discussing it so I can engage with the content of the video instead of just seeing pandering about sad news that doesn't invite any conversation.
One thing that bugs me about ban list is what I call Stolen Assets. Most common in archetypes focused series. When a card prefomes fine in its native environment, but is acquired and broken in another.
At times like that I want synergy bans. Card A and Card B are banned from working together. Put one or the other in your deck, not both.
I hear you buddy, im gonna be going to get my masters soon and i am exhausted
More players would play maxx c than believe world peace is a good thing based on some community polls
I just wanna point out the argument that rarran made: in any card game even with a resource system you cannot play the game if you do not have cards to play.
Keep up the great content
cool video and a nice beginning to a more in depth conversation about card design and card games in general. Not the best of conclusions tough.
What do you mean?
@@MonkeyFightTCG 19:29 "mechanicaly grow faster" what does that mean?
They tend to experiment more and thus end up with new gimmicks, mechanics, and card designs.
It ties in with the quote at the beginning of the video.
In a vacuum I'd prefer a game with only a banlist and no rotation since it means investing in cards would be less likely to blow up in your face because you won't have your entire strategy rotated out after X formats (staple reprints aside, it's obvious that set rotation literally forces you to buy more product.) But YGO's approach of generally hitting cards to make good decks weaker right in time for a new powercrept strategy to drop definitely means you're essentially playing with set rotation anyway and that it's usually better not to invest in any product until you've tested it in a simulator a bunch. Buying up copies of some obscure card because it might be really good in an upcoming release's format usually backfires on people (and tbh that's good, cuz scalpers are scum.) Master Duel is interesting because it's kind of like playing a format that's halfway between the TCG and the OCG, but it's on a time delay, so when they release new sets in MD you already know what'll be good. Like, sometimes people get surprised that a deck that was rogue in the OCG or TCG ends up being tiered in MD, but it's never a *big* surprise. It's like, oh yeah, of course Numerons are good in a Best of 1 format, or oh yeah, of course Spyral was decent at release because it was nearly at full power. But mostly it's just like "welp, might as well wait around until [insert archetype here] drops at full or near-full power" so you only ever crack open like every third or fourth set, with the exception of the time they released the Ishizu retrains and then the Tearlaments back-to-back. And you *know* those cards are gonna get hit to match the OCG or TCG banlist, so MD really is a set rotation format for the meta that also just randomly has legacy rogue decks lurking in the shadows, trying to steal games from you. Weird game. I still like it but it could be a lot better.
Except you've got it exactly backwards. BANLISTS make it so your "investment" can suddenly blow up in your face. ROTATION guarantees that you can play your cards longer.
Honestly, the fact that SPYRAL can just hang out in MD at full power is pretty hilarious. Like the deck ain't bad, but for how hard it's hit in the TCG, it really doesn't compare to the recent power creep we've had between Spright and Tear
Oh my god, as non Magic player, Bronze Tablet blew my mind LMAO. How is that ok? Thats the most unhinged effect ive ever seen! 😂 its literally gunpoint robbery in a card effect. What were they thinking?
20:00 what did you major in?
I got a garbage degree in digital media. It was either that or not go to college after a certain point
There is a recent youtube video showing a big youtuber stealing small youtuber's idea. Not necessarily saying thats what the other streamer did about tier list. But both are just sad
Thank you for ur Tier Lists but if ur paying for the site ur wasting money if its just a very small png image of cards. Just put the actual names in text form. Easier to search especially for newer players like me. tnx
The process of making an effective banlist is honestly quite complicated and I don't think I've ever seen one that fully succeeds at what it sets out to do. I like the idea of releasing banlist changes in batches over a set time frame rather than just pumping them out whenever you need them because that can often give time for the meta to adapt to a problem and sometimes even solve it for you. The biggest problem I have with most banlists is when things get banned for reasons that are not directly tied to strength or balance. A lot of bans are done just because parts of the community find certain strategies annoying and I think that any action taken in these cases should be proportional to how powerful and generic the strategy is rather than just because people don't like it. Also, I think every banlist has at least one example of something being banned for far too long, which is a real shame when it happens
🎉😢😢,
god do one piece commercials really look that bad?
Yeah, it's like POV: you have an addiction
Ban lists shouldn't be made by the people that make the card game. Too much conflict of interest because they can use it to promote new products like they are in Yu-Gi-Oh!
This is a fair point, But it brings up the question: who should make the ban lists instead?
FoW's design team is literally one guy with an attitude problem.
Yu-Gi-Oh really should have started doing set rotations around 5D's when synchros became a thing
First
I don't understand about other card games, because I only play this Yu-Gi-Oh. But I hate the ban list + powercreep in the same time. They already have more powerful cards (powercreep) as selling point, but why they still need to weaken older decks just to make sure the sell well. I don't know who is wrong here, player's mentality because they need crazy "power differences" to gain interest for new cards or the dev just want to force people to buy the new cards. This is very unhealthy for game balance and player's mentality.
The entire point of the Yugioh banlist is to target players exactly like you - "casuals," "budget players," or "semi-competitive" players. They want to hit older / cheaper decks to make sure that you can't effectively play the game without the new, expensive, Secret Rare staples & archetypes.
@@grafzeppelin4069 Not really? It can absolutely feel that way but it depends on the format. Yugioh has a stories history of extremely stupid design choice with newly introduced archetypes, which end up breaking the game and require manditory bannings next set (if konami isnt being moronic at the given time).
To put this in perspective, theres a big dicotomy between the OCG (Japan and regions near it format) and the TCG (format for everyone else). OCG avoids banning and making certain decks unplayable, but as a consquence is more often plagued balancing mishaps and a significantly worse problem of broken staples. The TCG on the other hand cracks down hard on decks and cards that end up warping the balancing. Though they do it at varying speeds...meaning a deck could either be ran into the ground quickly because the TCG has a panic attack over an FTK, or they could decide to take their sweet time either out fo incompetance or to manipulate the format to be about certain archetypes for the sake of marketting a card storyline or something.
Point is, yugioh's banlist sitiation is all over the place, and ban hammering HARD on a previous set's decks can be very much needed. Not saying this hasnt happened before though. The blue eyes worlds incident was a thing, where they dropped a ton of broken expensive blueeyes cards and banned all the other good stuff right before a worlds.
@@CatManThree Yeah, Konami has a very 'fix it later' sort of approach to card design where they don't often ask if they should increase the power level so much it just happens depending on the mechanics that the new deck is built around. Really feels like the banlist is constantly playing catchup, especially with how money driven the speed tends to be. Though TBF, they usually get there eventually and I can't wait for Tear and Spright to be hit enough to fall back in line with reasonable power level
@@munchrai6396 Tear and Spright havent been a problem in a while though, they both got hit already.
@@CatManThree I mean, we only just hit Spright in Master Duel. I want Blue and Jet at one in the TCG so the deck can't extend through disruption as consistently
I'm not sure if I like the video. I'm halfway through and the title question hasn't been approached yet
I mean I answered why the first mtg and yugioh ban lists were created almost immediately
@@MonkeyFightTCG yeah
With no anime for yugioh. The power creep has been out of control. I believe the anime kept yugioh in check somewhat
I hate that people keep confusing FIRE design with general power creep.
FIRE design refers exclusively to the change in philosophy for designing commons and uncommons for limited, and anecdotally I'd say limited has been significantly better post-FIRE design.
The playerbase uses FIRE design incorrectly and it's not good form.
Well according to wizards of the coasts own articles fire design also refers to how they handled mythics. It's also just that fire design was used for commons as well.
do people even understand mtg´s limited formats?
It's all about having formats where people can play whit the cards they own.
When there is only 1 format a lot of your cards may become useless.
Edit:
Lmao no my man, Yu-Gi-Oh uses NO rotation whatsoever
?
monkey based fight for the win whoever did that other video and didnt put the effort was just a hustler