Apparently a big reason why the original Thief took a while to develop after they switched it to a stealth game from just a generic hack and slash like it was in development, was due to the sound engine. The sound engine reportedly took a very long time for Looking glass to program and test and make it work with the AI. It functioned on a room by room basis and was really in-depth. And apparently was completely broken until just before the game released. A big reason why it hasn't been attempted since then is because game developers have moved toward just pure line of sight stealth like in Dishonored and Deus Ex Human Revolution because it's more streamlined. I'm not surprised Doom 3's engine has problems with this because it was an engine built for it's lighting and not it's sound.
@@harlandmct Its a shame that this review does not reflect the complexity and quality of your work and even states alot of wrong information because lack of research and game knowledge. Its beyond me while the reviewer and others feel overchallenged by a game while neglecting or failing in lowering the difficulty giving everyone a expression here it would solely a game for "hardcore stealth pros" like the Simon comment with the reviewers approval claims here which is simply not true. I was a stealth noob even without Thief experience and toned difficulty settings down like recommended and explained and was able to find an easy entry into this game. Makes me somehow really angry. Oh well I hope that other reviewers will do a better job on this one. Nevertheless enough rant, thanks for providing TDM! I love it and for me its one of the best stealth games (and yes meanwhile by TDM inspired I also played the other Thief games except 1 and 4.) Please keep it coming we love you.
@@hind6799 Cmon. 90% of people trying out this mod are not going to dig really deep into settings, tweaking and other stuff. His viewer base consists of general gamer, not Thief fan. General gamer is going to launch DM and if it's not polished enough for more or less casual experience - ditch it, without doing additional research.
@@johanndaart7326 Read, I stated I did not play Thief and had no problems with TDM. How the heck can lowering difficulty sliders in the options be too much for somebody with atleast somewhat intelligence? This review tries to project own stupidness onto the game/mod. Next upcoming review: "How playing game x on hardcore difficulty is too hardcore." /facepalm
@@hind6799 15 years ago I borrowed Fallout 1 to one of my friends. Two days later he came back with it and told me "the game is stupid, I only had a pistol and rats were killing me". Even 15 years ago it was too difficult for him. Current gamers are spoiled even more, everything needs to be brought up on a silver platter, they are more of a spectators, not active gamers. If you want to be successful dev, your game needs to be casual by default and harder difficulty needs to be an option. If you are not engaging right away, people will pass in a blink, just as they do when they scroll their YT or FB feeds. We both love Thief, I'm thankful for TDM, I don't need to be right about it, let's not fight :)
There are difficulty settings in the Menu that allow you to change the eyesight and hearing of the guards to suit your taste--you can set them to "Nearly Blind/Deaf" for a very casual experience or up to Hardcore. By default they're set to be challenging. I agree that the Doom3 engine does not do directional sound as well as Thief did. Not sure what to make of the comments saying that AI don't talk to themselves though...each vocal set has 15-20 idle barks, (as well as coughing, humming, etc,) which AI play at regular intervals. They also comment regularly about noticing things in the environment, like lights out, doors open, other guards walking by, etc.
+Springheel01 The guards used to have a more thief like hearing sense until a bugfix changed it because apparently it broke their hearing range which made them as deaf as they were blind.
Dark Mod is standalone in the sense that you don't need Doom 3 to play it anymore and you can just download it on its own though. This is thanks to the open sourcing of the engine.
This is always going to be one of the best stealth games you can own, for free. It single handedly showcases that fans of genres do more for them than the videogame industry, hands down, with no real amount of debate.
Wow Fallout 1.5 took a decade to make. What dedication! Honestly if it wasn't for mods I wouldn't be playing games today. What an incredible passion all these guys have. They make better games than the pros. Now I probably couldn't say the same thing if studios like Black Isle or Looking Glass were still around. Because those guys had the same passion as modders (fans) but more resources.
It's frustrating to me whenever someone complains about Thief's horror aspect, when it was in fact a cleverly designed aspect of the Thief world that gave extra depth and diversity to the experience. Some of the very best fan-made mods are those taking place in unholy cathedrals, decrepid oubliettes, and other strange worlds that provoke the imagination. I like a good mansion crawl but that does become tremendously predictable.
I was 15 at the time of first playing it and the undead missions of T1 got to me. I braved up a couple years later, beat T3 which has quite a lot of that too and returned to finish T1 and T2. I was ok with and enjoyed the odd, bizzare missions, and thought there's an alright balance between heists and supernatural missions. Braving up and finishing these levels was actually something more memorable than robbing building after building missions, but there are some heist missions from each game that i remember fondly, where atmosphere and music played a big part in remembering it.
Luckily the mod continues to get updated over the years and I will say that it plays so much better now. Also there’s still missions being made in now as well. Whoever hasn’t tried it yet I highly suggest you do. The few 2022 fan made missions are a treat. RIP Grayman
+GamerRoman SUNNY JIM ?~! If you want to be a ray of sunshine don't let me stop you, always thought it was SonnyJim. *gave up on Thief3 DeadlyShadows, it just got slower and more laggy; maybe because I have a 'puter that just comes up to the minimum specifications.
No! The AI aren't super human alert. It's a human level of alert. They are designed to be realistic. They are not for the casual thief player. They are for the die hard theif players who want a challenge. That was the plan for them at the start. I also think your conclusion was wrong. This mod is meant for anyone who loved the thief series or stealth games. It doesn't purport to be any of the thief games, and it doesn't exist in the thief universe, although it uses some factions from it. It's a fantastic mod for anyone who loves good stories (not all are) or to make levels.
***** If it were human level of alertness, it would be unplayable. It has to be fun to play. I'm an FM maker in TDM, and from that side as well as the player side, I find it enthralling because I get to appreciate both the gameplay, story and design.
@Antenna2heaven "hardcore thief players" lol does this even exist? Basically everyone starts the Thief games on the highest difficulty and guards are still bricks. Also your logic is flawed, thats like claiming MGS hardcore fans would demand every MGS or MGS-reminiscent game to have the same shitty 2m vision range "whoose footprintes are these" AI from MGS1. Furthermore you mixing something up here. He talks about diehard Thief fans wo look for more, look for new challenges, more realism, a more authentic stealth experience. Never did they claim it will provide Thief players with the same stuff some of you guys grew over-accustomed to. It calls itself a Thief successor. Successors try to to progress and to improve in case you didn´t notice. TDM certainly did it, while some players apparently aren´t able to. But this discussion is pointless as TDM has difficulty settings in place that allow to bring the AI down to Thief 2/3 level. The problem is that some people are still mentally overtaxed with pressing options in the main menu.
The reason why nobody else got sound design that well again is because Creative Labs own patents covering exactly that, and will sue the everliving shit out of anyone who implements something even just close to it.
They own EAX en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_Audio_Extensions which Thief 1 and 2 use and it contributes a fair deal to how excellent the games audio design is. Thankfully they use EAX 2.0 which is the last version creative ever let be open in any way. You can run Thief 1 and 2 with EAX enabled on any sound card/chip just by patching the game to the latest patch (TafferPatcher) which changed the games audio API from DirectSound 3D to OpenAL. This allows EAX 1.0 and 2.0 to be done in software by your CPU. Microsoft killed the DirectSound 3D API in Windows Vista. DS3D was the API creative relied on to run EAX on their cards. T1 and T2 use DS3D before the HUGE "fan" patch (quotes because the amount of improvements/fixes in it required whoever made it to have the source code of the games). Among the MANY things it improved about the game and its engine was changing the games audio API to OpenAL from DS3D. Since EAX 1.0 and 2.0 were more open than the last versions it can be emulated fully and run on your CPU using the OpenAL API. So it restores the EAX effects for everyone regardless of sound hardware or OS version.
@@sean8102 Thief 1 and 2 used multiple different sound engines, from software to Aureal 3D, EAX, their sound propagation tech was developed from the ground up by them. All EAX is different types of reverb. The real 3D audio was through Aureal 3D which apparently sounded amazing.
Installed it, feels incredibly sloppy to play especially coming from Thief 2. Thief felt so fluid; why is there now a delay to crouch? The movement feels off. The dropping animations are so weird, and dragging objects is really janky. Hell, even picking up loot is not as fluid. I just had to stop playing, I'd rather play any FM for Thief than this shit.
@@mmmmmmm3246 I've been loving it and it feels so close to the original that I got instantly lost in in it. The small hiccups are forgivable, even forgettable, but calling this shit? The only thing closest to shit I see is your attitude.
Any chance we can get a review of Thief 2X: Shadows of the Metal Age? It's a stand-alone mod for Thief 2 with it's own voice acting, characters, cutscenes, new gear, etc.
+MeKaNiNjA8 it's just a fan mission campaign. there are lots of them out there. probably even better than the one you mentioned. I see no reason to review this one but skipping all the others. that's too much to review
Well, I ran into the same issue when trying to get fan missions to work a few years ago. Thankfully, there's a new built-in Fan Mission Manager. So what I did was install the GOG version of Thief 2. Then installed TafferPatcher (drive.google.com/file/d/0B9po4JMpZfvgeFRIMnVaYndNWFU/view) (Forum Thread: www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131106) Which includes all the latest fixes and patches and stuff so you don't have to do it anymore. I then downloaded a bunch of fan missions off of thiefmissions.com/ I put the mission .zip files into an FM directory (C:\Games\Thief2FMs on my computer) Then I created a shortcut on my Desktop to thief2.exe. I opened the properties of the shortcut and in the "Target" box I put in: C:\Games\Thief2\Thief2.exe -fm Now when I run the shortcut, this runs the Fan Mission manager Once I ran the Fan Mission manager I then clicked the little gear icon in the bottom bar and chose "FM Archive Path" and picked the "C:\Games\Thief2FMs" folder. Then all the missions showed up in the Fan Mission manager. I click the one I want to play and click "Play FM" on the bottom. It's a lot easier than it used to be with the old mod manager which always screwed up for me. I hope this helps you, there are almost 1000 fan missions and a lot of them are excellent.
+Gggmanlives I'm so glad you're going to do a review of it, but I have to warn you. My experience with the original Xbox game was flawless, but the remake and expansion I played on the 360 was buggy. The stealth was broken at times, and I encountered numerous other issues. Though the expansion was ok, I think quintessential Butcher Bay experience is no doubt the original game(not the remake). I would recommend playing the original first.
Hey GGGmanlives, Thanks for reviewing the game. I'm a long time subscriber and I always wondered what you'd think of it. I made two missions for The Dark Mod (Requiem, and House of Locked Secrets) and I have to say that the toolset the game comes with is really top-notch, and the community is very newcomer-friendly. Anyways, always interesting to hear people's feedback. Now I'm just wondering if you'll ever get around to reviewing the other mod I worked on, "The Nameless Mod" for Deus Ex :-).
Sonny Jim, a suggestion: when you intersperse clips from other games it'd be nice to have an overlay rectangle of sorts where you show the game's name (if different than the original topic).
+Timpu Andreas Might be inspired by it, but it's from a horror mission titled A Night to Remember. You're pursued by spirits in a haunted mansion, something your thief character wasn't prepared for in the least.
Like some others I'll have to disagree on the TDM AI's situation awareness being a problem. The AI detection is not random nor unpredictable. It seems that way at first because it has more variables involved that factor in to when you are detected by the AI. The AI behavior can be learned and consistent knockouts and avoiding detection at close range are achievable given practice. If you need a demonstration then there are videos on youtube showing how to knock out AI consistently every time given reasonable conditions. There are also videos of TDM "iron man" runs around as well that demonstrate that the AI detection is predictable given practice. If videos are not enough then there is also a special "Sound Alert & Blackjack Trainer" mission available that provides an easily repeatable controlled environment in which to practice "sound detection only" against blind guards on a variety of surfaces. Most of the "uncertainty" surrounding AI detection should evaporate after a few some practice rounds with the "Sound Alert & Blackjack Trainer".
If you want 3d headphone audio, it is possible. But it is a pain to set up. The doom 3 mod and standalone both use OpenAL and so you can use Openal-soft to enable a hrtf and force some reverb. However the engine does not occlude sounds like the dark engine and neither does it have good distance cues.
Hey GGMan, did you know that in the options you can turn down the guard awareness levels? Most people like me enjoy the "Unpredictable AI" because it adds tension to the game, but for those who are looking for the kind of experience you are there are a few ways you can get it to your speed.
+Tim Gormley " that's why we put the setting in the menu" - did you work on the game ???? , if so thx coz it's the closest to classic thief in this atrocious console era of overhyped AAA garbage !!!!!!!!!!!
Your comment on the audio engine is spot on! Ever since MS got rid of that hardware sound layer from Vista the likes of EAX hasnt been seen again. Fair enough that you could probably do it all now on CPU but they dont seem to bother and personally I still feel a sound card is a good investment for older games that use EAX and they can improve general sound too. Just a shame a lot of games now have "flat" sound.
@@andykashu8541 I don't get it. Are you implying that only highly skilled players who never complain about how hard a game is should be allowed to review a game, regardless of how fair the challenge is? I mean, should a review be made only with hardcore gamers in mind? Granted, I'm not saying he's right, though, after playing Alberic's Curse on hardest difficulty, and with challenging A.I, it didn't seem that hard to me (unless you're going for a ghosting run, of course).
note: this video was made in 2015. its now december 17. the Mod is now a free standalone game with version 2.05, any difficulty and AI behaviour can be configured. the community is very active and many maps and even some campaigns are fully available. its free and only 2 gb, so why not give it a try?
Perhaps but with TDM being here I highly doubt someone would go for Amnesia as newest TDM graphically looks better and offers even more light and physics based functionality.
Your points on the sound are spot on and my reason not to enjoy The Dark Mod as much as it deserves. I lost count how often I was spotted immediately when some random guard came out of nowhere. In fact, the entire sound sytem was weird and crowded places seemed inhabited by zombies as, apart from the occacional greetings, they simply walked around aimlessly or along their waypoints in complete silence. The coughing and monologues were so much fun and made it fair, guards out of nowhere are not fun. Additionally, I can only agree to the levels available. Played a dozen or so and finished 2 or 3 only, the quality varies from fantastic and true to the original Thief games to a mere "nice first try on modding, mate". Always feel like getting back to it, however, I immediately get those bad images of me being detected by a guard manifesting from thin air behind or in front of me. But hey, after all it is still way ahead of the 2014 abomination of their "Thief for morons".
Have you played the Thievery mod for UT99? It's faithful to the original games, and the AI and mechanics are pretty good. although, being a multiplayer mod there are some balance issues but the mod can be enjoyed offline.
Call of duty 4 had such a great "directional sound thing" that we could hit someone with a grenade in the head from half the map just by sound alone. Was ridiculous to some degree but when the world quiets down any normal human being can tell where the source of that lonely sound is, pretty precisely actually.
Thief 1 and 2 did stealth properly. It was knowledge-based rather than strictly "to sneak you must crawl and there is no other option" You could literally bhop around the map at a speed so fast that if you hit a wall you'd instantly die but as long as you did low jumps and hit soft surfaces you'd never make enough noise to alert anybody. Looking Glass really loved proper physics in games not just shitty gravity and ragdolls.
Looking Glass removed the Thief 1 bunny hop in Thief 2 because it was unintentional, just like in Quake, but iD left it in because the fans loved it in multiplayer.
thanks for this Gman, was setting myself to try this for a couple of months now, but first I think I'll give thief 4 a go. And wasn't the sound in thief 3 perfectly fine? And that was unreal engine. So one could think Dark Mod people could have gone with unreal 3, tho I can see why they picked idTech 4, that handles lighting and shadows so awesomely (and one could think sound too, as it was made specifically for an action-horror game).
On the sound problem gggmanlives, it might have something to do with the Doom 3 engine itself utilizing EAX for it sound system. Might want to look in to how to restore EAX in Windows 7 and beyond because for a lot of older games, it is almost necessary to see how the sound was intended to be.
+SpooferJahk TDM does not support EAX even tho Doom 3 did, EAX 4.0 only worked on Creative sound cards and was a big amount of extra work to implement on the missions, so no one but a single mission maker ever used it, so they decided to removed it, they are implementing EFX tho, so perhaps is better not to dismiss this game on the sound only. BTW EAX or EFX has nothing to do with directional sound it only makes the reverb and other sound effects, TDM supports directional sound just fine, for example i'm using Rapture3D with it and the HTRF based directional sound is fantastic.
@3:50 I think this is due to studios on a faced paced production schedule, and audio is still regarded as a low priority in game design. Search "sound propagation algorithm" on Google. There is almost nothing written about this subject, except in academic papers. T1 and The Dark Engine were well ahead of their time.
I’m a big fan of the games, and can’t understand why people don’t like Dark Shadows. That game was brilliantly done. The style was changed, but the story was on par as the third in a trilogy that wrapped up nicely.
+Whiffly001 Perfect description of my experience with it. It's not that the AI is HARD, rather it's too buggy and turns out unfair as a result. I've seen many guards get stuck in weird loops and make progression impossible. Many times they will go from normal to full alert in odd circumstances. It really destroys the whole atmosphere. But still, there are maps that I'm SO glad I played through.
Did you try setting the hearing and vision sliders to their lowest settings? Difficulty can be customized significantly in the game. And this is a STANDALONE game now. Doom 3 is no longer required.
Argues half the video that the game is too difficult for him. Won´t turn down difficulty because reasons *facepalm Sorry unsubbed you, this is probably one of the least intelligent viewpoints I´ve heard from a videogame reviewer in a long time.
I always thought this mod was the perfect opportunity for someone to create a full spiritual succesor of thief, with a similar character and story. Yet, all you have are a bunch of random missions and characters that vary in quality.
+Adrián Vergara You can't replicate thief exactly on TDM because of rights, TDM universe is very similar to the thief universe tho, they only changed the factions names and lore slightly, for example Hammerites on thief are called Builders on TDM but their symbol is still the hammer, the characters don't vary in quality they are the same for all missions, only the missions story/lore and geometry construction/lighting vary, and there's some fantastic missions on TDM. Btw you can say the same about thief 1 and 2 fan missions.
Thanks for the copyrights lessons. I know all of that copyright issue, that's why I said "spiritual succesor" just like Yooka Laylee is the spiritual succesor to Banjo kazooie. I meant that there should be a fully realized game made with this mod, with a plot, a level progression, a character, a villian, a consistant level design throughout the game, etc. Nobody has doone that.
Adrián Vergara Nobody has done that because is hard! Take that as a lesson as well, TDM was made by a few thief fans not a full commercial game company. TDM was also made primarily as a mission making tool and a game second, there's no AAA game on it because the missions are made by one or two developers tops, on their free time for free and because they love the TDM/Thief universe and game development, not by 20 or more paid developers. Criticizing arshly TDM just because "there's no full game campaign on it!?" is childish and unfair IMO. BUT you are wrong, there's indeed campaigns missions on TDM, missions that link several maps with the same story and character, with intros, cut scenes, etc, they aren't just as big as the thief games, and they're few and between for obvious reasons, they are just hard to make! Is easy to complain about, no full game on TDM, when you are not the one making them.
+Adrián Vergara There is an official campaign in the works, it's just being developed slowly, because the devs want to make it top quality. Anyway, some of the existing missions already link into small campaigns that follow an individual thief's storyline. You have the Thomas Porter series, the William Steele series, etc., etc.
His review is dead on guys. When you play an amazing game, how often do you realise that you need to practice the game before enjoying it? If you're being honest with yourself, the answer is not very often at all. The learning curve for the Dark Mod was steep (at the time of this video). I haven't played it since then, but perhaps it still is. Thief 1 and 2 were the best because you could learn from your mistakes before frustration took hold. In the Dark Mod, you actually need hours of practice for the default game difficulty feels normal, and that's not good. If you need to change a setting to make the guards 'Nearly Blind/Deaf' then you may as well uninstall the game, because it's harder still to enjoy something while feeling incredibly condescended. I notice that everyone who dislikes the review seems to be a forum regular (as WAS I). If you've played this mod A LOT, then yeah, you're going to be pretty opinionated and your opinion will reflect someone who's had tonnes of experience with the game and FORGOT the feeling of frustration when they were first learning how to play. However, I DO remember playing from the first time I got angry, to the point where I'd finally learned the behaviour of the AI to some extent. After playing almost a hundred missions I still didn't feel like the cool light footed ninja that garret was. I died a lot due to some infuriatingly abstract reasons. The result was I actually had more trouble suspending my disbelief in the dark mod than the original ancient looking game! It's an amazing mod, but the team behind it need to seriously ease up on the 'My precious baby' syndrome if they want more stealth fans to play. Take something from reviews like this instead of defaulting to think of a reason why it's wrong.
Well, I played Alberic's Curse a few days ago on hardest difficulty, and with hard (but not hardcore) enemy A.I, and it didn't seem that hard to me. Granted, I don't know if Gman is including that mission in his complaints, but it seemed fair to me. Well, sure, Haunts and Zombis are very reactive, so you need to be pretty careful even when crouching, and even when walking on stone but it didn't seem so frustrating to me. Though I don't quite understand how the sword works, which is quite different than Thief 1/2 and would have made things easier
In this very video he admits that he took days to complete missions, and I agree with him on that. The first time I played bonehoard or the Lost City map, it took me days to complete. I was tip toeing around all the AI's giving them WAY more room than I needed to. The point is, you people are being dishonest about how long it took to get good at Thief. It didn't take 1-2 hours to get good at it, and I personally had to smash my face against a wall multiple times (metaphorically) to finally get to the point where I could progress with skill. TDM STARTS there, and ramps that up. People have been playing the thief games for like 20 years and they are EASY now, even on the hardest difficulty.
+Priest Bob Dishonored is Thief with cheats and is a realy poor substitute. Mark of the ninja is considered to be the next proper stealth game, but apart from additional ways to "hide" yourself, I do not see it as it has nothing of the original Thief or Thief 2, especially none of the "spirit" and the mood. All the others like Hitman, Deus Ex or Splinter Cell are just some inferior stealth attempts and fall flat on their face in comparisson. Since when do gadgets make a proper stealth game? I hate to break it to you, but there is nothing like Thief.
+Bunker Knacker Hitman is a different beast than Thief, has a different approach to stealth. Splinter Cell is (or was) a mix of the two, while deus ex series is a jack-of-all-trades type of a game with stealth being just one component of it.
I second people saying this could use an update the project's latest release came out in may of 2021. development looks to be ongoing, that's kinda a problem with these mod projects that keep on going and growing for years or decades. This game is no longer a doom mod its a standalone freeware game.
The reason directional sound isn't good in modern games is because microsoft killed direct hardware access for sound cards in windows vista and above. Windows XP was the last OS that supported it. This is the reason modern sound cards don't have HRTF like the Aureal Vortex had. If you have any games that support OpenAL you can go to kcat.strangesoft.net/index.html and download the software OpenAL driver. Just rename the dll to OpenAL32.dll and put it in the game directory, it's absolutely amazing.
Gggmanlives I went up to Brisbane a few years back for baseball. Had the most amazing time going to the Steve Erwin zoo. Slept on a Kangaroo. I want to go back up for a while, but money issues
Hey +Gggmanlives, I tweeted you do you want a free copy of The Ship to review? I have it on Steam, might be a bit dead, but thought it is a FPS after all...
+knox140 Requiem and its sequel the House of Locked Secrets. William Steele: In the North and its sequel, Home Again. Knighton Manor... These are the best ones I've played anyhow.
When has none ever beat this in the 20 or so years? Because no one sincerely tried! To mush preocupation with other things in game design (like high fidelity visuals) leaving some amazing 90s concepts behind...
I thought you were a bit harsh . This mod is AWSOME. First its an ammazing achievment for the team behind it and then the authors releasing the maps have put many hours even weeks if not more of work into the maps and missions. Yea theres rough edges but its a FREE MOD and the map makers with encouragement refine and re-release missions when these rough edges are pointed out to them. Some overly critical reviews comparing a game created by fans for fans with production companies working 8-12 hours per day with Teams dedicated to different aspects of a game is just UNFAIR !!! . THat sums it up really. Your Review is Unfair and I suggest you makea map or mission and see how your efforts are recieved ! Hmmm Can you do better ? BTW Im just fine with the difficulty. I think its much more immersive !! I prefer the realism of guards who are alert and listening to there surrounding's, on the lookout for knobs trying to speed run levels !
I appreciate the hard work put into making the Dark Mod and doing it for free for the fans. But this coming after playing hundreds of Thief fan missions still made with the Dark Engine, the Dark Mod left me disappointed. These fan missions are much smaller in scale than the Dark Engine fan missions. And as pointed out they lack the EAX directional sound. The only thing going for it is a graphics boost. But Thief excelled from its gameplay, not its graphics. Incredibly enough, fans are still making missions with the Dark Engine (although this engine has been highly modified.) And they do a damn good job with them, many of them have been as good or better than the original Thief i and 2 game missions.
This review is worthy of an update, as the Dark mod is now standalone, and have had a lot of updates.
Apparently a big reason why the original Thief took a while to develop after they switched it to a stealth game from just a generic hack and slash like it was in development, was due to the sound engine.
The sound engine reportedly took a very long time for Looking glass to program and test and make it work with the AI. It functioned on a room by room basis and was really in-depth. And apparently was completely broken until just before the game released.
A big reason why it hasn't been attempted since then is because game developers have moved toward just pure line of sight stealth like in Dishonored and Deus Ex Human Revolution because it's more streamlined. I'm not surprised Doom 3's engine has problems with this because it was an engine built for it's lighting and not it's sound.
@@harlandmct Its a shame that this review does not reflect the complexity and quality of your work and even states alot of wrong information because lack of research and game knowledge. Its beyond me while the reviewer and others feel overchallenged by a game while neglecting or failing in lowering the difficulty giving everyone a expression here it would solely a game for "hardcore stealth pros" like the Simon comment with the reviewers approval claims here which is simply not true. I was a stealth noob even without Thief experience and toned difficulty settings down like recommended and explained and was able to find an easy entry into this game. Makes me somehow really angry. Oh well I hope that other reviewers will do a better job on this one. Nevertheless enough rant, thanks for providing TDM! I love it and for me its one of the best stealth games (and yes meanwhile by TDM inspired I also played the other Thief games except 1 and 4.) Please keep it coming we love you.
The Dark Mod now has reverb sound just like Thief after the latest updates.
@@hind6799 Cmon. 90% of people trying out this mod are not going to dig really deep into settings, tweaking and other stuff. His viewer base consists of general gamer, not Thief fan. General gamer is going to launch DM and if it's not polished enough for more or less casual experience - ditch it, without doing additional research.
@@johanndaart7326 Read, I stated I did not play Thief and had no problems with TDM. How the heck can lowering difficulty sliders in the options be too much for somebody with atleast somewhat intelligence? This review tries to project own stupidness onto the game/mod. Next upcoming review: "How playing game x on hardcore difficulty is too hardcore." /facepalm
@@hind6799 15 years ago I borrowed Fallout 1 to one of my friends. Two days later he came back with it and told me "the game is stupid, I only had a pistol and rats were killing me". Even 15 years ago it was too difficult for him. Current gamers are spoiled even more, everything needs to be brought up on a silver platter, they are more of a spectators, not active gamers. If you want to be successful dev, your game needs to be casual by default and harder difficulty needs to be an option. If you are not engaging right away, people will pass in a blink, just as they do when they scroll their YT or FB feeds. We both love Thief, I'm thankful for TDM, I don't need to be right about it, let's not fight :)
There are difficulty settings in the Menu that allow you to change the eyesight and hearing of the guards to suit your taste--you can set them to "Nearly Blind/Deaf" for a very casual experience or up to Hardcore. By default they're set to be challenging.
I agree that the Doom3 engine does not do directional sound as well as Thief did. Not sure what to make of the comments saying that AI don't talk to themselves though...each vocal set has 15-20 idle barks, (as well as coughing, humming, etc,) which AI play at regular intervals. They also comment regularly about noticing things in the environment, like lights out, doors open, other guards walking by, etc.
+Springheel01 The questions is, why would AI talk to themselves? To make things easier for the player? ;)
+Springheel01 The guards used to have a more thief like hearing sense until a bugfix changed it because apparently it broke their hearing range which made them as deaf as they were blind.
The menu options were added at the same time as that fix, IIRC.
Dark Mod is standalone in the sense that you don't need Doom 3 to play it anymore and you can just download it on its own though. This is thanks to the open sourcing of the engine.
This is always going to be one of the best stealth games you can own, for free.
It single handedly showcases that fans of genres do more for them than the videogame industry, hands down, with no real amount of debate.
Although the videogame industry gave them the engine..
Wout Blux
And nothing more.
More like John Carmack being a nice guy and releasing his engine's source code.
I know this comment was made ages ago, but another example of this exact point is Fallout 1.5.
Wow Fallout 1.5 took a decade to make. What dedication!
Honestly if it wasn't for mods I wouldn't be playing games today. What an incredible passion all these guys have. They make better games than the pros. Now I probably couldn't say the same thing if studios like Black Isle or Looking Glass were still around. Because those guys had the same passion as modders (fans) but more resources.
It's frustrating to me whenever someone complains about Thief's horror aspect, when it was in fact a cleverly designed aspect of the Thief world that gave extra depth and diversity to the experience. Some of the very best fan-made mods are those taking place in unholy cathedrals, decrepid oubliettes, and other strange worlds that provoke the imagination. I like a good mansion crawl but that does become tremendously predictable.
+BlakeCasimir I don't like the enemies in those maps, I prefer being a "thief" and ripping people off. I'm more a "Song of the Caverns" kinda guy.
BlakeCasimir Down in the Bonehoard is a blast, real immersive, spooky tomb raiding.
I remember that I stopped playing Thief 1 when it became all undead missions. Nice to see I'm not the only one disliking that aspect of Thief.
Gggmanlives well... could you come up with a base idea or story premise then? I feel the theif games had that for the purposes of a narrative
I was 15 at the time of first playing it and the undead missions of T1 got to me. I braved up a couple years later, beat T3 which has quite a lot of that too and returned to finish T1 and T2. I was ok with and enjoyed the odd, bizzare missions, and thought there's an alright balance between heists and supernatural missions. Braving up and finishing these levels was actually something more memorable than robbing building after building missions, but there are some heist missions from each game that i remember fondly, where atmosphere and music played a big part in remembering it.
Luckily the mod continues to get updated over the years and I will say that it plays so much better now. Also there’s still missions being made in now as well. Whoever hasn’t tried it yet I highly suggest you do. The few 2022 fan made missions are a treat. RIP Grayman
Didn't realize Grayman had passed. RIP.
This really is one of the best free games out there and the missions just keep getting more refined.
That's a good question, *SUNNY JIM.*
+GamerRoman Is this a good reply to your comment? Well, sonny jim, lets find out.
+GamerRoman *sonny
+GamerRoman SUNNY JIM ?~!
If you want to be a ray of sunshine don't let me stop you, always thought it was SonnyJim. *gave up on Thief3 DeadlyShadows, it just got slower and more laggy; maybe because I have a 'puter that just comes up to the minimum specifications.
looking at this in 2022.. man.. The Dark Mod has come a long way
Ya, the mod is something of a mixed bag but it's essentially more of a series we never got enough of.
No! The AI aren't super human alert. It's a human level of alert. They are designed to be realistic. They are not for the casual thief player. They are for the die hard theif players who want a challenge. That was the plan for them at the start. I also think your conclusion was wrong. This mod is meant for anyone who loved the thief series or stealth games. It doesn't purport to be any of the thief games, and it doesn't exist in the thief universe, although it uses some factions from it. It's a fantastic mod for anyone who loves good stories (not all are) or to make levels.
***** If it were human level of alertness, it would be unplayable. It has to be fun to play. I'm an FM maker in TDM, and from that side as well as the player side, I find it enthralling because I get to appreciate both the gameplay, story and design.
@Antenna2heaven "hardcore thief players" lol does this even exist? Basically everyone starts the Thief games on the highest difficulty and guards are still bricks. Also your logic is flawed, thats like claiming MGS hardcore fans would demand every MGS or MGS-reminiscent game to have the same shitty 2m vision range "whoose footprintes are these" AI from MGS1. Furthermore you mixing something up here. He talks about diehard Thief fans wo look for more, look for new challenges, more realism, a more authentic stealth experience. Never did they claim it will provide Thief players with the same stuff some of you guys grew over-accustomed to. It calls itself a Thief successor. Successors try to to progress and to improve in case you didn´t notice. TDM certainly did it, while some players apparently aren´t able to. But this discussion is pointless as TDM has difficulty settings in place that allow to bring the AI down to Thief 2/3 level. The problem is that some people are still mentally overtaxed with pressing options in the main menu.
Please do an updated review of the dark mod!
Thief fans should definitely try it out. I personally did and liked some of the maps a lot.
Sorry to be late Gggman, but FUCK YEAH! NO MORE ABBOT!! I'll get the Champagne!
He's gone
+Salokin Sekwah Who's that?
+Andrej Gamer4Life Was the Australian Prime Minister.
fossilfern Oh, ok!
+Salokin Sekwah Hallejuah!
The reason why nobody else got sound design that well again is because Creative Labs own patents covering exactly that, and will sue the everliving shit out of anyone who implements something even just close to it.
could you show me what those patents are? because that sounds ridiculous
They own EAX en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_Audio_Extensions which Thief 1 and 2 use and it contributes a fair deal to how excellent the games audio design is. Thankfully they use EAX 2.0 which is the last version creative ever let be open in any way. You can run Thief 1 and 2 with EAX enabled on any sound card/chip just by patching the game to the latest patch (TafferPatcher) which changed the games audio API from DirectSound 3D to OpenAL. This allows EAX 1.0 and 2.0 to be done in software by your CPU. Microsoft killed the DirectSound 3D API in Windows Vista. DS3D was the API creative relied on to run EAX on their cards. T1 and T2 use DS3D before the HUGE "fan" patch (quotes because the amount of improvements/fixes in it required whoever made it to have the source code of the games). Among the MANY things it improved about the game and its engine was changing the games audio API to OpenAL from DS3D. Since EAX 1.0 and 2.0 were more open than the last versions it can be emulated fully and run on your CPU using the OpenAL API. So it restores the EAX effects for everyone regardless of sound hardware or OS version.
@@sean8102 Thief 1 and 2 used multiple different sound engines, from software to Aureal 3D, EAX, their sound propagation tech was developed from the ground up by them.
All EAX is different types of reverb.
The real 3D audio was through Aureal 3D which apparently sounded amazing.
Now TDM has OpenAL and supports EAX.
This needs an update :3 The game changed immensly since the last time! I hope you get some time for it in the near future
Reassuring to hear. Thinking of getting this.
@@because88 Do it! A new version just came out. it looks great.
Installed it, feels incredibly sloppy to play especially coming from Thief 2. Thief felt so fluid; why is there now a delay to crouch? The movement feels off. The dropping animations are so weird, and dragging objects is really janky. Hell, even picking up loot is not as fluid. I just had to stop playing, I'd rather play any FM for Thief than this shit.
@@mmmmmmm3246 I've been loving it and it feels so close to the original that I got instantly lost in in it. The small hiccups are forgivable, even forgettable, but calling this shit? The only thing closest to shit I see is your attitude.
You can configure the AI in the options menu, by the way.
"Whilst the reboot wasn't terrible --" Hold your hourses champ
Ahhh another Gggman review, means its going to be a great day!
love your reviews, happy to see your channel growing with every video ;)
It has it's own campaign by now, I think it's safe to make an update on this review
Does it really? Which missions are they?
@@quackedmaple last time I played there were two missions
Any chance we can get a review of Thief 2X: Shadows of the Metal Age? It's a stand-alone mod for Thief 2 with it's own voice acting, characters, cutscenes, new gear, etc.
+MeKaNiNjA8 it's just a fan mission campaign. there are lots of them out there. probably even better than the one you mentioned. I see no reason to review this one but skipping all the others. that's too much to review
Can you give me one? Thief 2x is the most well known to my knowledge.
+ilyriandevil how's it going mr? did you find the patch? have you played the missions already?
Well, I ran into the same issue when trying to get fan missions to work a few years ago.
Thankfully, there's a new built-in Fan Mission Manager.
So what I did was install the GOG version of Thief 2.
Then installed TafferPatcher (drive.google.com/file/d/0B9po4JMpZfvgeFRIMnVaYndNWFU/view)
(Forum Thread: www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131106)
Which includes all the latest fixes and patches and stuff so you don't have to do it anymore.
I then downloaded a bunch of fan missions off of thiefmissions.com/
I put the mission .zip files into an FM directory (C:\Games\Thief2FMs on my computer)
Then I created a shortcut on my Desktop to thief2.exe.
I opened the properties of the shortcut and in the "Target" box I put in: C:\Games\Thief2\Thief2.exe -fm
Now when I run the shortcut, this runs the Fan Mission manager
Once I ran the Fan Mission manager I then clicked the little gear icon in the bottom bar and chose "FM Archive Path" and picked the "C:\Games\Thief2FMs" folder.
Then all the missions showed up in the Fan Mission manager. I click the one I want to play and click "Play FM" on the bottom.
It's a lot easier than it used to be with the old mod manager which always screwed up for me.
I hope this helps you, there are almost 1000 fan missions and a lot of them are excellent.
Hey GGGmanlives, will you review Riddick Escape from butcher bay?
+The Gamer Hierarchy He'll do one eventually.
+The Gamer Hierarchy Why yes, yes I will.
+The Gamer Hierarchy Yes please do this!
+Gggmanlives attack on dark athena would be grreat too!
+Gggmanlives I'm so glad you're going to do a review of it, but I have to warn you. My experience with the original Xbox game was flawless, but the remake and expansion I played on the 360 was buggy. The stealth was broken at times, and I encountered numerous other issues. Though the expansion was ok, I think quintessential Butcher Bay experience is no doubt the original game(not the remake). I would recommend playing the original first.
play it now. its a blast
Still waiting for an update to this review!
this game has been updated since then. and is way better that described within this video.
Most games now days don't give a shit about sound design.
Most game companies nowadays don't give a shit about anything other than dumbed down gameplay and dlcs.
They are working on pushing the 2.06 update for The Dark Mod for the purpose of also bringing EAX (reverb and better sounds).
EAX is already in-game.
Hey GGGmanlives,
Thanks for reviewing the game. I'm a long time subscriber and I always wondered what you'd think of it. I made two missions for The Dark Mod (Requiem, and House of Locked Secrets) and I have to say that the toolset the game comes with is really top-notch, and the community is very newcomer-friendly. Anyways, always interesting to hear people's feedback. Now I'm just wondering if you'll ever get around to reviewing the other mod I worked on, "The Nameless Mod" for Deus Ex :-).
+GeloKazu2 Oh dude I remember Requiem, that's the one where you start off with no gear and have to sneak out of the inn?
+Gggmanlives Yep, you had some footage of it starting at: 5:43 .
GeloKazu2
Good mission, dude! Definitely one I enjoyed.
Requiem is legendary, HoLS is also amazing.
If you've reviewed this because I asked nicely, then thanks a ton ! 8-) And thanks either way, I enjoy your reviewing style. :-)
Have you ever played the Thief 2X Shadows of The Metal Age fanmade expansion for Thief 2? It has it's problems, but some of it is quite award-worthy.
Sonny Jim, a suggestion: when you intersperse clips from other games it'd be nice to have an overlay rectangle of sorts where you show the game's name (if different than the original topic).
+Groaznic I like that idea, sonny jim.
I agree. it's confusing when one game is being talked about, but a different game is being shown, with no indication.
2:38 that's the haunted hotel from vampire the masquerade bloodlines woooo
+Timpu Andreas Might be inspired by it, but it's from a horror mission titled A Night to Remember. You're pursued by spirits in a haunted mansion, something your thief character wasn't prepared for in the least.
Like some others I'll have to disagree on the TDM AI's situation awareness being a problem.
The AI detection is not random nor unpredictable. It seems that way at first because it has more variables involved that factor in to when you are detected by the AI.
The AI behavior can be learned and consistent knockouts and avoiding detection at close range are achievable given practice.
If you need a demonstration then there are videos on youtube showing how to knock out AI consistently every time given reasonable conditions.
There are also videos of TDM "iron man" runs around as well that demonstrate that the AI detection is predictable given practice.
If videos are not enough then there is also a special "Sound Alert & Blackjack Trainer" mission available that provides an easily repeatable controlled environment in which to practice "sound detection only" against blind guards on a variety of surfaces.
Most of the "uncertainty" surrounding AI detection should evaporate after a few some practice rounds with the "Sound Alert & Blackjack Trainer".
If you want 3d headphone audio, it is possible. But it is a pain to set up.
The doom 3 mod and standalone both use OpenAL and so you can use Openal-soft to enable a hrtf and force some reverb.
However the engine does not occlude sounds like the dark engine and neither does it have good distance cues.
Hey GGMan, did you know that in the options you can turn down the guard awareness levels? Most people like me enjoy the "Unpredictable AI" because it adds tension to the game, but for those who are looking for the kind of experience you are there are a few ways you can get it to your speed.
+WMan37 I don't like dumbing them down so much, I just feel like it should be a bit more generous on the default setting.
+Tim Gormley " that's why we put the setting in the menu" - did you work on the game ???? , if so thx coz it's the closest to classic thief in this atrocious console era of overhyped AAA garbage !!!!!!!!!!!
dark mod 2.05 is now released as standalone game with alot more assets and a new lever editor
Your comment on the audio engine is spot on! Ever since MS got rid of that hardware sound layer from Vista the likes of EAX hasnt been seen again. Fair enough that you could probably do it all now on CPU but they dont seem to bother and personally I still feel a sound card is a good investment for older games that use EAX and they can improve general sound too. Just a shame a lot of games now have "flat" sound.
So basically your saying "Wah wah this games too hard for me" lol
Yeah, that's entirely what I'm saying...maybe open your ears in the future.
@@Gggmanlives And that classifies for you as a review? Okay...
@@andykashu8541 I don't get it. Are you implying that only highly skilled players who never complain about how hard a game is should be allowed to review a game, regardless of how fair the challenge is? I mean, should a review be made only with hardcore gamers in mind?
Granted, I'm not saying he's right, though, after playing Alberic's Curse on hardest difficulty, and with challenging A.I, it didn't seem that hard to me (unless you're going for a ghosting run, of course).
Great review! Finally some who isn't desperately trying to be funny. Subbed
Think we can ever see an updated review of The Dark Mod?
note: this video was made in 2015. its now december 17. the Mod is now a free standalone game with version 2.05, any difficulty and AI behaviour can be configured. the community is very active and many maps and even some campaigns are fully available. its free and only 2 gb, so why not give it a try?
The mod was already standalone in october 2013..
I wonder if a Thief mod can be made for Amnesia. The atmosphere of that game would compliment careful sneaking around and robbery quite well.
Perhaps but with TDM being here I highly doubt someone would go for Amnesia as newest TDM graphically looks better and offers even more light and physics based functionality.
The way you said sonny Jim in this one was pretty intense
MAX PAYNE THREEEEEEEEEE! still waiting.
+Joki Jankovic Why not just go play it?
Your points on the sound are spot on and my reason not to enjoy The Dark Mod as much as it deserves. I lost count how often I was spotted immediately when some random guard came out of nowhere. In fact, the entire sound sytem was weird and crowded places seemed inhabited by zombies as, apart from the occacional greetings, they simply walked around aimlessly or along their waypoints in complete silence. The coughing and monologues were so much fun and made it fair, guards out of nowhere are not fun.
Additionally, I can only agree to the levels available. Played a dozen or so and finished 2 or 3 only, the quality varies from fantastic and true to the original Thief games to a mere "nice first try on modding, mate". Always feel like getting back to it, however, I immediately get those bad images of me being detected by a guard manifesting from thin air behind or in front of me. But hey, after all it is still way ahead of the 2014 abomination of their "Thief for morons".
+Bunker Knacker They are implementing EFX on the new 2.04 version so perhaps the sound will improve.
+Bunker Knacker Yeah even with the issues it blows the Thief reboot out of the water.
@@Argoon1981 EFX is now in the game.
@@Gggmanlives Agreed. Maybe even it beats the original trilogy sometimes. Continuous updates to the game really helps a lot.
Have you played the Thievery mod for UT99? It's faithful to the original games, and the AI and mechanics are pretty good. although, being a multiplayer mod there are some balance issues but the mod can be enjoyed offline.
+Killnine90 It looks pretty good.
There's really good work in this mod. Great review too
Call of duty 4 had such a great "directional sound thing" that we could hit someone with a grenade in the head from half the map just by sound alone. Was ridiculous to some degree but when the world quiets down any normal human being can tell where the source of that lonely sound is, pretty precisely actually.
I was shocked when played it. A truly masterpiece from Thief community.
Thief 1 and 2 did stealth properly. It was knowledge-based rather than strictly "to sneak you must crawl and there is no other option"
You could literally bhop around the map at a speed so fast that if you hit a wall you'd instantly die but as long as you did low jumps and hit soft surfaces you'd never make enough noise to alert anybody. Looking Glass really loved proper physics in games not just shitty gravity and ragdolls.
Looking Glass removed the Thief 1 bunny hop in Thief 2 because it was unintentional, just like in Quake, but iD left it in because the fans loved it in multiplayer.
Hey gggman can you tell us which missions you liked the most, since you say there is a great difference in quality between them?
+ermisme I'm sorry I can't remember the names, but yeah there are big differences.
thanks for this Gman, was setting myself to try this for a couple of months now, but first I think I'll give thief 4 a go.
And wasn't the sound in thief 3 perfectly fine? And that was unreal engine. So one could think Dark Mod people could have gone with unreal 3, tho I can see why they picked idTech 4, that handles lighting and shadows so awesomely (and one could think sound too, as it was made specifically for an action-horror game).
Even Kinda sorta halfway like Thief 2 is awesome. I'm gettin' this!
On the sound problem gggmanlives, it might have something to do with the Doom 3 engine itself utilizing EAX for it sound system. Might want to look in to how to restore EAX in Windows 7 and beyond because for a lot of older games, it is almost necessary to see how the sound was intended to be.
+SpooferJahk TDM does not support EAX even tho Doom 3 did, EAX 4.0 only worked on Creative sound cards and was a big amount of extra work to implement on the missions, so no one but a single mission maker ever used it, so they decided to removed it, they are implementing EFX tho, so perhaps is better not to dismiss this game on the sound only. BTW EAX or EFX has nothing to do with directional sound it only makes the reverb and other sound effects, TDM supports directional sound just fine, for example i'm using Rapture3D with it and the HTRF based directional sound is fantastic.
+Argoon1981
Isnt Rapture3D native to Codemasters' games?
MightySavagE No, you can buy it separately but i don't recommend it, it only works on OpenAL games and those are now very rare especially on windows.
If The Dark Mod and Thief 4's spit polish would have a baby, that would be great.
+Pul5ar Thief 4 was one of the least polished games I've ever played.
DrearierSpider1 Yeah ok, graphically it's quite nice though.
gggmanlives - What about Thief 2x: Shadows of the Metal Age?
@3:50 I think this is due to studios on a faced paced production schedule, and audio is still regarded as a low priority in game design. Search "sound propagation algorithm" on Google. There is almost nothing written about this subject, except in academic papers. T1 and The Dark Engine were well ahead of their time.
OpenAL is already updated to be a part of The Dark Mod.
I’m a big fan of the games, and can’t understand why people don’t like Dark Shadows. That game was brilliantly done. The style was changed, but the story was on par as the third in a trilogy that wrapped up nicely.
Yeah, things have improved a lot in 8 years.
Do you plan on reviewing killing floor 2 when it comes out of early acces, or the original killing floor?
+the lone weaboo Where is your avatar from, if I may ask?
+Bleachlover01 hataraku maou-sama
+the lone weaboo When it comes out of EA, yeah.
sweet
sweet
"Unpredictable A.I." and this is a bad thing?
Know the difference between smart ai, and wonky ai
Great review man.
+Whiffly001 Perfect description of my experience with it. It's not that the AI is HARD, rather it's too buggy and turns out unfair as a result. I've seen many guards get stuck in weird loops and make progression impossible. Many times they will go from normal to full alert in odd circumstances. It really destroys the whole atmosphere.
But still, there are maps that I'm SO glad I played through.
Did you try setting the hearing and vision sliders to their lowest settings? Difficulty can be customized significantly in the game. And this is a STANDALONE game now. Doom 3 is no longer required.
+nbohr1more I don't enjoy putting them to their dumbest settings, they shouldn't be as psychic as they are.
Argues half the video that the game is too difficult for him.
Won´t turn down difficulty because reasons
*facepalm
Sorry unsubbed you, this is probably one of the least intelligent viewpoints I´ve heard from a videogame reviewer in a long time.
Ah yes, I've been waiting for this one.
I always thought this mod was the perfect opportunity for someone to create a full spiritual succesor of thief, with a similar character and story. Yet, all you have are a bunch of random missions and characters that vary in quality.
+Adrián Vergara You can't replicate thief exactly on TDM because of rights, TDM universe is very similar to the thief universe tho, they only changed the factions names and lore slightly, for example Hammerites on thief are called Builders on TDM but their symbol is still the hammer, the characters don't vary in quality they are the same for all missions, only the missions story/lore and geometry construction/lighting vary, and there's some fantastic missions on TDM. Btw you can say the same about thief 1 and 2 fan missions.
Thanks for the copyrights lessons. I know all of that copyright issue, that's why I said "spiritual succesor" just like Yooka Laylee is the spiritual succesor to Banjo kazooie. I meant that there should be a fully realized game made with this mod, with a plot, a level progression, a character, a villian, a consistant level design throughout the game, etc. Nobody has doone that.
Adrián Vergara Nobody has done that because is hard! Take that as a lesson as well, TDM was made by a few thief fans not a full commercial game company. TDM was also made primarily as a mission making tool and a game second, there's no AAA game on it because the missions are made by one or two developers tops, on their free time for free and because they love the TDM/Thief universe and game development, not by 20 or more paid developers. Criticizing arshly TDM just because "there's no full game campaign on it!?" is childish and unfair IMO.
BUT you are wrong, there's indeed campaigns missions on TDM, missions that link several maps with the same story and character, with intros, cut scenes, etc, they aren't just as big as the thief games, and they're few and between for obvious reasons, they are just hard to make!
Is easy to complain about, no full game on TDM, when you are not the one making them.
+Adrián Vergara There is an official campaign in the works, it's just being developed slowly, because the devs want to make it top quality. Anyway, some of the existing missions already link into small campaigns that follow an individual thief's storyline. You have the Thomas Porter series, the William Steele series, etc., etc.
you think they'll ever remake the original thief (1 and 2) missions? I've always been interested to see what that would be like
I always wonder why this not happened to system shock 2. I mean, doom 3 engine is made for system shock 2 remake, in my opinion.
His review is dead on guys.
When you play an amazing game, how often do you realise that you need to practice the game before enjoying it?
If you're being honest with yourself, the answer is not very often at all.
The learning curve for the Dark Mod was steep (at the time of this video). I haven't played it since then, but perhaps it still is.
Thief 1 and 2 were the best because you could learn from your mistakes before frustration took hold. In the Dark Mod, you actually need hours of practice for the default game difficulty feels normal, and that's not good. If you need to change a setting to make the guards 'Nearly Blind/Deaf' then you may as well uninstall the game, because it's harder still to enjoy something while feeling incredibly condescended.
I notice that everyone who dislikes the review seems to be a forum regular (as WAS I). If you've played this mod A LOT, then yeah, you're going to be pretty opinionated and your opinion will reflect someone who's had tonnes of experience with the game and FORGOT the feeling of frustration when they were first learning how to play.
However, I DO remember playing from the first time I got angry, to the point where I'd finally learned the behaviour of the AI to some extent. After playing almost a hundred missions I still didn't feel like the cool light footed ninja that garret was. I died a lot due to some infuriatingly abstract reasons. The result was I actually had more trouble suspending my disbelief in the dark mod than the original ancient looking game!
It's an amazing mod, but the team behind it need to seriously ease up on the 'My precious baby' syndrome if they want more stealth fans to play. Take something from reviews like this instead of defaulting to think of a reason why it's wrong.
Well said, lad.
Well, I played Alberic's Curse a few days ago on hardest difficulty, and with hard (but not hardcore) enemy A.I, and it didn't seem that hard to me. Granted, I don't know if Gman is including that mission in his complaints, but it seemed fair to me. Well, sure, Haunts and Zombis are very reactive, so you need to be pretty careful even when crouching, and even when walking on stone but it didn't seem so frustrating to me. Though I don't quite understand how the sword works, which is quite different than Thief 1/2 and would have made things easier
In this very video he admits that he took days to complete missions, and I agree with him on that.
The first time I played bonehoard or the Lost City map, it took me days to complete. I was tip toeing around all the AI's giving them WAY more room than I needed to.
The point is, you people are being dishonest about how long it took to get good at Thief. It didn't take 1-2 hours to get good at it, and I personally had to smash my face against a wall multiple times (metaphorically) to finally get to the point where I could progress with skill.
TDM STARTS there, and ramps that up. People have been playing the thief games for like 20 years and they are EASY now, even on the hardest difficulty.
I liked deadly shadows. The hub world was cleaver. My favourite is still the first one though.
What are some good games to play for someone who loved Thief 1-3?
DISHONORED!!!
Deus Ex
+Priest Bob I think that shadow and sounds based stealth games are pretty rare, the only one I could think of is Splinter Cell.
+Priest Bob Dishonored is Thief with cheats and is a realy poor substitute. Mark of the ninja is considered to be the next proper stealth game, but apart from additional ways to "hide" yourself, I do not see it as it has nothing of the original Thief or Thief 2, especially none of the "spirit" and the mood. All the others like Hitman, Deus Ex or Splinter Cell are just some inferior stealth attempts and fall flat on their face in comparisson. Since when do gadgets make a proper stealth game? I hate to break it to you, but there is nothing like Thief.
+Bunker Knacker Hitman is a different beast than Thief, has a different approach to stealth. Splinter Cell is (or was) a mix of the two, while deus ex series is a jack-of-all-trades type of a game with stealth being just one component of it.
Gggman are you planning on reviewing the "Aliens: The Ultimate Doom" mod for Doom?
Thief 1-2 was awesome. Thief 3 kinda worked for me, I liked it and it was fine in my opinion. Thief 4...ough.
GGGmanlives , could you review the first Carmageddon ? I am pretty sure that game is a classic for everyone.
I second people saying this could use an update the project's latest release came out in may of 2021. development looks to be ongoing, that's kinda a problem with these mod projects that keep on going and growing for years or decades. This game is no longer a doom mod its a standalone freeware game.
Hi to all, im a big fan of thief games, i recently discovered this mod. In order to paly this mod i must have the doom 3 installed? Thanks
No, it's standalone now
iv been meaning to get this going myself other things keep getting my attention.
I was wondering gggman, will you ever review Warhammer 40K: Fire Warrior?
+metal parsnip I don't own it but I'd love to.
The reason directional sound isn't good in modern games is because microsoft killed direct hardware access for sound cards in windows vista and above. Windows XP was the last OS that supported it. This is the reason modern sound cards don't have HRTF like the Aureal Vortex had. If you have any games that support OpenAL you can go to kcat.strangesoft.net/index.html and download the software OpenAL driver. Just rename the dll to OpenAL32.dll and put it in the game directory, it's absolutely amazing.
I would take this over the new triple A game.
not a mod anymore
Have you every thought about reviewing System Shock Infinite? I'd really love to see that!
+Yahtzee
Woot! I did not know that was a thing! Thanks!
god i love your videos
+Lachlan Bur Why thank you.
Gosto deste jogo
dear GGGmanlives, What part of Australia do you live?
+Austin Williams Sydney.
Gggmanlives I went up to Brisbane a few years back for baseball. Had the most amazing time going to the Steve Erwin zoo. Slept on a Kangaroo. I want to go back up for a while, but money issues
Hey +Gggmanlives, I tweeted you do you want a free copy of The Ship to review? I have it on Steam, might be a bit dead, but thought it is a FPS after all...
+David Poole Sorry I don't use twitter much. I already own it I believe.
in my opinion it's not a game, it's a fan mission launcher platform. but it's good made
Well...I just have to check it out. XD
What is this? A mod or a game?
2.11 update is out.
got any suggestions for some of the missions you enjoyed?
+knox140 Requiem and its sequel the House of Locked Secrets. William Steele: In the North and its sequel, Home Again. Knighton Manor...
These are the best ones I've played anyhow.
thanks!
+knox140 I'd also like to add in Quinn Co., which is two bank heist missions. Great stuff.
When has none ever beat this in the 20 or so years? Because no one sincerely tried!
To mush preocupation with other things in game design (like high fidelity visuals) leaving some amazing 90s concepts behind...
hey gggman i enjoy your videos. What is your favorite australian dish? do you like vegemite?
+joecoolbackinschool Australians don't have dishes, we rip off everyone else. And yes, vegemite is fucking incredible.
Its a shame about the sound since doom 3 has really good sound design the engine should be capable of it in some respect
Directional EAX through OpenAL added already in newer updates.
Gggmanlives, could you review Call of Juarez: Gunslinger?
"Reboot wasn't terrible"
PFFFFFHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Gggmanlives, can you review an underrated DOS FPS game called Eradicator?
+gabriel3210 I get that one a lot now, it looks interesting.
+Gggmanlives Thanks and I hope you will review it.
I thought you were a bit harsh . This mod is AWSOME. First its an ammazing achievment for the team behind it and then the authors releasing the maps have put many hours even weeks if not more of work into the maps and missions. Yea theres rough edges but its a FREE MOD and the map makers with encouragement refine and re-release missions when these rough edges are pointed out to them. Some overly critical reviews comparing a game created by fans for fans with production companies working 8-12 hours per day with Teams dedicated to different aspects of a game is just UNFAIR !!! . THat sums it up really. Your Review is Unfair and I suggest you makea map or mission and see how your efforts are recieved ! Hmmm Can you do better ? BTW Im just fine with the difficulty. I think its much more immersive !! I prefer the realism of guards who are alert and listening to there surrounding's, on the lookout for knobs trying to speed run levels !
I appreciate the hard work put into making the Dark Mod and doing it for free for the fans. But this coming after playing hundreds of Thief fan missions still made with the Dark Engine, the Dark Mod left me disappointed. These fan missions are much smaller in scale than the Dark Engine fan missions. And as pointed out they lack the EAX directional sound. The only thing going for it is a graphics boost. But Thief excelled from its gameplay, not its graphics.
Incredibly enough, fans are still making missions with the Dark Engine (although this engine has been highly modified.) And they do a damn good job with them, many of them have been as good or better than the original Thief i and 2 game missions.
+Scwurt Have you tried Requiem? Or The William Steele series? Nothing small about them.
Was going to say Requiem or Volta or Volta 2
You should have mentioned the Thievery mod for unreal
do i need the thief game to play this mod
No, all you need is tdm_update.exe and it will download the entire game. Found here: darkmod.taaaki.za.net/release/tdm_update_win.zip