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That's fair enough. With the EV available to charge we'll definitely be charging during the free sessions, that's a fairly easy win.

Octopus Go works out better for us than Cosy, as it happens, as we have a nice big battery so don't need to charge it more than once. We used very little peak power last Winter so the better off-peak rate for Go wins out over Cosy for us. Cosy also requires a heat pump MCS certificate, which you don't get with A2A installs, so we wouldn't be able to get it even if we wanted to, which is a shame.

​@@TimAndKatsGreenWalkhave you complained to Octopus about A2A not being sorted for Cosy?

The EV charger tells me how much I've used for charging, the Mixergy iHP has its own energy monitoring, while the rest all have smart plugs which give me the consumption that I can add to my spreadsheets. The GivEnergy app then tells me the total, so I can subtract the rest to give me the "remainder" value, which covers typical house loads.

​@@TimAndKatsGreenWalkDo you have smart plug recommendations? And are they Home Assistant compatible?

I've not yet tried Agile but I don't have HA so if I did give it a try I think I'd use a third party service to optimise it. I've not felt brave enough yet though.

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Predbat is well worth a look, super smart piece of coding

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Predbat is well worth a try, very clever logic and coding

Yup, this assumes you're staying in the same house for 25 years. The interest rates could be considered as net rather than gross, which would deal with the tax issue.

Haha! Oh dear, sounds like you tried pretty hard for such a paltry payback. As you say, sometimes it's quite fun seeing what you can do, even though everything seems to be fighting against us.

Managed £3.08, plus the amount I got for force discharging the battery before the session… My automation is comically long, starting an hour before the session to make sure there’s capacity to charge. But as you point out - that’s a £1 saving, with an extra 40-45p export each time.

Ooh, good question. I'll see what I can dig up. In the mean time I'd suggest regular Flux or IOG are likely to be better for you from now on, unless you have a really huge solar array.

If you've not seen it, this is the recent update for my "tariff rule of thumb" video. That's likely to change again when the price cap changes in October though, but I'll be doing another update when that happens. That video also has a link to the original rule of thumb video where I explain the assumptions in more detail, so if you've not seen that either that'd be worth a watch too, potentially. ruclips.net/video/BB-in7snbxY/видео.html

There are web pages for each tariff and they have FAQs, so they might help a bit: octopus.energy/intelligent-flux-faqs/ octopus.energy/blog/intelligent-go-faqs/

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Thanks very much 🙏. Sorry forgot to include the fairly obvious, excellent program, love the detail you go into & the spreadsheets 😍 We are near Bridport /Dorset - 16x410w system Givenergy gen2 inverter & 9.5kW battery South facing

@@nicflanagan6662 thank you for the kind words, I appreciate that. That's a nice system, you probably would be doing pretty well on IOF in the height of Summer with that, although if you have an EV and do lots of miles IOG might still work out better.

We still sign up for Powerups and charge the EV, plus dishwasher and washing machine and drier. Definitely still worth it for us, and it helps Octopus and the grid.

Yes, good point about solar making these sessions more challenging. You've got to overcome that before you can even start consuming extra! Thankfully charging the EV comfortably exceeds our maximum generation, so it seems to work out just about beneficial.

Yes if you have an EV it’s definitely more opportunity to use the free electricity. I don’t so other than the kitchen appliances I can’t really consume it and when the overnight rates are cheap its worth just exporting as normal and running the kitchen stuff overnight. But no one answer for everyone, and no single answer for every cheap electricity event. We’ve got a power up tomorrow and its not predicted to be that sunny so I will discharge the battery and charge up in the free period

@@geoffreycoan yup, it's all good. Do what you can if you can otherwise let it be and don't worry about it.

Pretty good! I really hope Octopus can get the GivEnergy EV charger integrated into IOG soon. But I'm not holding my breath.

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk I hope so for you too!

I have GivEnergy smart plugs attached where they plug into the wall, which gives me the energy usage. Some people use Shelly energy monitors if they are wired directly to the consumer unit.

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Cheers for sharing Tim. I assumed they would have been powered direct from the main unit, not something the smart plugs could be used for.

@SpectrumGeeks they are 10A max draw (typically much lower) so our electrician said it'd be fine plugging them into a standard socket, as long as the circuit was 32A, which thankfully we had available, so he put an external pair of sockets in for the purpose via a spur from the downstairs socket circuit (inside a larger than usual weather proof box so there was space for the smart plugs too).

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Ah, that makes sense why thats possible then. I have mine installed next week, one is 16A and the other 20A.

@@SpectrumGeeks ah, yes, that's more powerful than our ones. Sounds like the Shelly monitors might be a better option for you then.

Savings for the free energy sessions? You're supposed to import during those not export, or do you mean something else?

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Sorry import or charge battery to export later at 15p

@@davidbilling466 gotcha.

If you enjoy doing it then no problem!

If it's easy to do then there's no issue, but if it turns into a hassle to consume an extra few kWh then it starts to feel like work. For us it's pretty easy to just put the EV on charge, and that's the biggest consumer so we may as well do that. Anything more than that is not really worth the trouble.

I think in fact it may be more environmentally friendly to export the maximum and then use a low cost night rate to recharge a battery or EV. By exporting during day time you are helping to support the high grid demand. Using the night rate helps to consume the excess unwanted generation and potentially reduce curtailment penalties. Effectively this is helping to balance the grid and reduce firing up gas stations.

@@peterjones6322 the idea of these free energy sessions is that the supply is very high (due to lots of solar or wind on the system), so giving the electricity away for free helps prevent curtailment during that period. The demand during those times wasn't sufficient to use it all, so that's why Octopus were attempting to help address that. Exporting during these free energy periods actually makes the imbalance worse, not better.

​@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Agreed, we don't export during the Free sessions, we consume, its just all other daytimes that we export. We are in a post code that receives the Octopus Powerup sessions (next one is tomorrow) which are scheduled during high wind periods. We charge the battery and EV and wash clothes etc. In the winter sessions we use electric fan heaters so that drops the need for our gas heating too. Hopefully other areas will have these sessions in future.

It shouldn't have anything to do with your tariff. Probably coincidence.

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Thanks thats what i thought too

We have considered buying the Fiat at the end of the lease and that's still an option we'll look into, but I'm doubtful we'd get a good price for it. Killing the lease early and buying a different second hand car would likely be the most cost effective option. The Soul is a good suggestion, I'll add it to the list.

You'd also need two inverters. But bear in mind that the amount of time you'll be pulling more than one battery/inverter is capable of providing is going to be very rare, so consider that the extra cost of the equipment might not be worth it in the long run given you'll be spending a couple of pence per day on peak rate power. Domestic wind power is also rarely worth it, unless you are on a hill with no trees or buildings nearby and have a very tall pole to mount your turbine on.

You can use them for cooling but they suffer from exactly the problem you describe, so in practice it's not done. There is a good Heat Geek video from a couple of Summers ago where they tried it. It's not particularly effective though.

Yup, here it is: ruclips.net/video/GKDucs4zl7Y/видео.htmlsi=_r5bYZjrZgv3Y-7r

​@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk I wouldn't and would strongly advise others not to. Split units (coupled with MVHR), on the other hand, strikes me as the best option for compact climate control, especially in retrofit. I also can't see the justification of underfloor heating if you can insulate.

@@Tenagor that's basically what I say in this video. I wouldn't recommend it either.

Ah, that's very interesting. Thanks for letting me know.

Same for ec3 I think and the cheapest seagull, but the more expensive seagull in China has battery cooling

@@MatthewStanford51 yup, that much I had heard (for the Seagull). It'll be interesting to see if that stays the same once they make it to the UK.

15K second hand

Yup, that was an obvious omission on our part. I've subsequently added it to our list!

The i3 will ultimately reach a price floor due to their reasonable parts cost, ongoing support, large user base, very low battery degradation and lack of corrosion.

EVs break even on carbon footprint in less than 15k miles compared to the equivalent ICE cars, so whatever you go for it's the greener option. Battery recycling is also becoming much better so the environmental impact on producing new ones is reducing every year. There's no need to cast aspersions here, we're all on the same side.

Yes, that's another one I forgot to include. No idea why!

Please see my pinned comment for a full explanation.

Yes, someone else mentioned that and it does look very neat. It's got AC which the Microlino doesn't, so that's a definite plus. I've added it to our list to keep an eye on!

Ah ha! No, that's one I'd missed and it hasn't been mentioned by anyone else. It looks to be the sister car to the ID.2 and Cupra Raval? I'll add it to my list. Thanks for pointing it out!

Thanks for clarifying! It looks like the GWM Ora thing misses your threshold by 35mm!

@@dougbamford yeah, we had to draw the line somewhere or else the list would never end! There will always be things on the margins that are "just a little bit bigger" and before you know it you've got a Cybertruck on your list of small cars.

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk I see what you mean. When you talked about the mini there is the old model and the new one. Is it worth distinguishing the two? It seems that the new one is better and smaller, but there might be some bargains out there for the old model.

@@dougbamford yes, it was the new one that we put on the list but you're right there are lots of the old model available second hand now. The range on the old model is way less though, and they're still pretty pricey second hand, so we're unlikely to go that route. Maybe once the new one has been out for a couple of years there will be some good second hand options for that version too.

The Kona is significantly bigger than the Fiat 500e (4.36m long compared to 3.63m). It's a small family hatchback rather than supermini, so definitely not under consideration for us. There was a lot I didn't mention else the video would have been an hour long, this was just supposed to be a summary of some of the available options not an exhaustive deep dive into all the pros and cons of each. It's a starting point for further research by those who are interested.

I do like the Dolphin and would probably be happy driving it but Kat would prefer something smaller, for sure. The Seagull is definitely looking like a serious contender though.

Possibly. It's only £8k in China! Crazy.

Yes, someone else mentioned the e-208. A couple of others also slipped through the net, like the BMW i3. This is why it's useful to put out videos like this so that people can fill in the gaps for us!

No the MG4 is quite a bit bigger than the Jazz. Well over 4m long. Small family hatchback rather than supermini.

​@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk ahhh, the Jazz is smaller than I thought then. We've stepped up a size with the MG4 but then it is our only car and the bigger boot is handy for going on holidays and taking things to the tip.

@@dougbamford the Jazz was our main car for years and years (we had two versions of it, in fact, over about 18 years) and it was incredible in terms of internal space. We did plenty of trips to the tip in the Jazz! Not all superminis are as spacious inside, sadly.

Do you have V2H option in it as built in?​@@dougbamford

No-one will ever convince me that a touch screen or voice commands are superior to physical buttons when driving a car. I'm glad you find them easy to use but I'm not keen! We've been looking at some good second hand options recently so it's definitely a viable route for us.

Yes, Kat's Fiat 500e is super quick off the line, that's one of the reasons we love it so much. There's no way we'd go back to petrol now. I do wish that 0-30 times were published as standard too. That information can be hard to find.

The Abarth looks fun, for sure, but probably a bit beyond our budget right now. If a good second hand one pops up we'd consider it but they're pretty rare compared to the regular 500e.

Thanks. As it happens I've just been looking at second had Zoes and there are some great deals right now.

We would be buying outright if second hand so interest rates don't concern us. We will certainly be looking at warranties though.

I am familiar with EVM, I watch his channel, and have seen that particular video. I'm well aware you can do better than the list prices but had to use a benchmark for this video as getting a reliable value for the discount prices for every car on this list would have been a right pain. I leave that as an exercise for the viewer.

I can't put a non-existent car on the list. Once there are some actual specs available I'll take a look.

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk I'm not sure the ID2 is much further along than the Tesla 2. I personally wouldn't bet on which one will be on sale first.

@@dougbamford that may well happen but there are specs available for the ID2. There's nothing public on the Model 2. I can't very well put it on the list if I don't know how big it will be (I bet it'll be small family hatchback size rather than supermini size).

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Fair enough! The mock-ups online make it look like BMW 1 series, which is perhaps a class bigger. Maybe you'd be waiting for a Tesla 1 which might be a very long wait!

@@dougbamford I'm not sure how close those mock-ups will be to the actual design. I think they were guesses on the part of third parties rather than originating with Tesla but you never know. I think you're right that a potential Tesla 1 would be many many years away.

For our use case it's more a bonus than an essential. So I have no idea which do and don't, that's not an important consideration for us.

Do you mean active liquid cooling of the battery? Only the Nissan Leaf is seriously limited in this regard, may the early Kia Soul and some Japanese PHEVs. Heat pumps seem to mostly be advantageous in cold climates because they are more efficient for heating the battery than resistance heaters.

Size, as mentioned in the video as our primary consideration. The model 3 is huge compared to all of the others on this list.

I have not as yet. That's still something I'm pondering on.

There are other good second hand options but this is currently our most likely route.

We'd rather buy at this stage.

It's not the sort of journey we do very often so not a big deal for us, really.

Yeah, the Kona is a bit too big. I'm just glad there are plenty of options out now or coming soon. It's about time.

Both solid options